Latest / Devil Town / The Trooper | Chapter 15

Transcript

The Trooper | Chapter 15 · Devil Town

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: So a few years ago, a couple days after Christmas,
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I get this email out of the blue from a
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: guy named Joseph Hogue. At the time, Joe was a
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: state trooper, 27 years on the job. He has since retired.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: When he reached out to me, Joe had never had
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: anything to do with Kelly Wilson's case. But then he
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: heard the podcast. And Joe, aka Trooper Hogue, was the
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: first person in law enforcement to ever reach out to
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: me about Kelly. And all the time the show's been
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: out with everybody who's heard it, he was the first one.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: And once he got going, he didn't stop.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Man, this is unbelievable. I can't not do something because
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: it's here. It's where we work. It's where we live.
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: It's where we're from. And it's unsolved.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Now, I do want to be straight with you about
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Joe Hogue. A lot of what you're going to hear
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: him say in this episode are his theories. It's not fact.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: And he and I always talked on his days off.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: So none of this is coming from his official capacity
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: as a state trooper. That said, I appreciated his expertise
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: and I found him to be credible. And he had
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: a lot to say.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: You're going to get one shot at this. I think
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: he's been waiting on law enforcement to come knocking on
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: that door.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: From Free Range Productions, in association with Imperative Entertainment, I'm
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Wes Ferguson, and this is Deviltown. Chapter 15, The Trooper. Okay,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: so let's back up for a second to the start
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: of Operation Lone Star. Operation Lone Star was this flood-the-zone
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: initiative from Texas Governor Greg Abbott where he called up
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: the Texas National Guard and he sent a bunch of
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: guardsmen down to the border plus thousands of state troopers
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: from DPS, all to help out with border security. I
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: know the border is always a hot-button issue, and now
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: kind of more than ever, but this is not a
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: political podcast. That said, Operation Lone Star is where this
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: part of our story begins. Because one of those state
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: troopers was Joseph Hogue. In fact, Joe was working on
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: the border right after Christmas in 2023 when he sent
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: me that first email. The subject line was just two words,
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: a fan. Joe explained that he grew up in Quitman,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: just one town over from Gilmer, about 30 miles to
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: the west. Back when I was in high school, we
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: played Quitman and football, and I think they stomped us.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: But Joe wasn't really interested in hearing about my glory days.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: What he wanted to talk about was Kelly Wilson's disappearance.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: He told me he listened to Devil Town all the
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: way through, and then he played it again. He said
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: he was furious. And here's the thing. Joe didn't come
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: to this case because he was from Gilmer or because
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: he knew Kelly or he'd worked the case back in
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: the day. None of that. He came into it totally cold.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, he told me that he had never even
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: heard of Kelly Wilson before. And he would not have
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: known about our podcast if not for Operation Lone Star.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: I didn't know anything about this story. It was mentioned
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: to me by.
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: a.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Trooper that's out of Henderson, but he used to work
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: in Gilmer. And so he said that I should listen
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: to it. And since I have, not only have I
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: listened to it a lot, but I'm getting other people
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: to listen to it.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: Joe was on the border 600 miles away from home,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: working the graveyard shift from 6 p.m. to 6 a.m.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: when he found out about a podcast from pretty much
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: his own backyard. some other state trooper on the first
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: night of a deployment just going, hey man, you ought
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: to listen to this one. And that's the whole reason
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: we're here right now.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: I listen to a lot, a lot, a lot, a
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: lot of these podcasts and all kinds of stuff because
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: I drive so much. When we're down here at the border,
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: we just sit here almost for 12 hours a shift.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: Joe told me it was his 14th deployment down to
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: the border that year, and it gave him a lot
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: of time in his patrol vehicle. And it's not just
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: true crime he was listening to on those long drives
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: or when he was parked by the Rio Grande. He
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: told me he also listened to hundreds of recorded murder confessions,
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: actual interrogations, guys confessing to killings, one after another, for hours.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: He said, and this is his line from one of
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: our emails, that he's got a great passion for interviews.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: So by the time Joe Hogue stumbled onto my podcast
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: about Kelly Wilson's disappearance, he'd already spent years hearing one
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: person after another confess to a killing. He had a
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: pretty good idea for what a guilty man sounds like.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: He's also spent most of his career in what they
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: call interdiction. It's kind of like fishing for drugs and
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: cash during a traffic stop. A police officer pulls a
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: car over, susses out the person behind the wheel, and
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: figures out who's lying, who might be hiding something. It's
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: a pretty controversial practice, so you can go online and
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: read up on all the pros and cons for yourself.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: But Joe spent a decade teaching interdiction all over the country,
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: and he was named Instructor of the Year back in 2009.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: I am very good at interviews, he told me. The
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: man's got a hell of an ear and a whole
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: lot of confidence. Does that make him right about what
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: happened to Kelly Wilson? Well, I'll let you decide. The
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: first thing Joe wanted to know when we finally got
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: on the phone was who else had been calling me.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: I'm very interested to know how many people have told
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: you that you did a really good job.
• 5:58
  Speaker 5: Well, I really appreciate that. I've not heard from anyone
• 6:01
  Speaker 5: in law enforcement about it.
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: No one in law enforcement?
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: No, sir.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: Does it surprise you that no one from law enforcement has.
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: Talked to you?
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that did surprise me because it wasn't for
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: lack of trying on my end. Back when I started
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: working on Deviltown, I called the Gilmer Police Department and
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: I emailed them. I drove over and walked into the station,
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: I think three separate times. And I never heard a
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: word back. And you know, I don't pay taxes in Gilmer.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: I don't live there. They don't owe me a single thing.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: I get that. But then the show comes out and
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: literally hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions of people,
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: listen to this show and still, from anybody with a badge, nothing.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: Just silence. literally for over a year until this one
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: trooper I've never met randomly finds the show when he's
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: killing time on the border and he emails me out
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: of the blue and now he's ready to go to
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: war over this.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: Wow, that's horrible.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: To Joe, this wasn't just some juicy mystery, a way
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: to pass the time during a long shift. He kept
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: coming back to the people the case had wronged, especially
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: Sergeant James York Brown, the Gilmer officer who got dragged
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: into the satanic panic mess all those years ago and
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: came out the other side with his life turned upside down.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, can you imagine having went through that, you know,
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: and then wanting to be interviewed, you know, this many
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: years later? To me, you could tell in his heart
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: that he's a really good guy and he was doing
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: everything he could to find this girl.
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: And it's important that people know that.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: See, that's the thing that kept me on the phone.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: Joe Hogue was just heartsick about this. Not only for Kelly,
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: but for everybody who got hurt by this case along
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: the way. And he kept hammering on this one basic idea.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: The thing they drill into you from day one. When
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: somebody vanishes, you start with the last people to see
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: them alive. And you don't move on to anybody else
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: until you've cleared those people 100%. That's the box. And
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: he actually put it to me flat out in one
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: of his emails. You don't go outside that box, he said,
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: until they are 100% eliminated. And the way Joe Hogue
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: saw it, in Kelly's case, nobody ever really cleared that
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: first box. The whole investigation got spooked by rumors and
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: all that satanic panic stuff and went chasing every wild
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: story in town. And meanwhile, the last guy to see
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: her alive, he stayed right there in plain sight, you know,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: running his burger joint, feeding half of Gilmer. And nobody
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: could really make themselves look at him for one simple reason.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: Everybody knew him. Everybody liked him. I'm talking, of course,
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: about Joe Henry.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: There's a lot there, and you don't go outside of
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: that box until he's eliminated.
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: It just breaks my heart.
• 8:56
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it sounds like he was just a friend to
• 8:59
  Speaker 5: so many people in town that they couldn't see that
• 9:02
  Speaker 5: he might be involved. They just gave him a pass.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: A friend to so many. That's Joe Henry. He's also
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: related to some influential people in Gilmer. And if you've
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: been with the show, you know that Joe ran the
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: Burger Place on the town square for decades. He also
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: leased the movies to the video store where Kelly worked.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: And Joe Henry has always said from day one that
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: he was the last person to see Kelly Wilson the
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: night she vanished. I am going to hit pause for
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: just a second because I think things might be about
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: to get slightly confusing. Because for the rest of this episode,
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: we are going to be talking about two guys whose
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: names are kind of similar. Joe Henry and Joe Hoag.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Joe Henry, of course, worked at the video store. He
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: knew Kelly. Joe Hogue was the state trooper. Joe Henry,
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: Joe Hogue. Anyway, Joe Hogue asked me to send him
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: my original interviews with Joe Henry, and I did that.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: He listened to those interviews over and over and over,
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: out there on the border, and he became convinced that
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: I'd been holding the answer in my hands this whole time.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: After the break, what Joe Hogue hears when he listens
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: to Joe Henry, and why I keep telling him to
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: maybe pump the brakes. Now, let's be extremely clear about
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: one thing. Joe Henry has never been charged with any
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: crime connected to Kelly Wilson's disappearance. Not 30 plus years ago,
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: not now. He is innocent until proven guilty. Joe Henry
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: talked to me twice on the record, and everything you're
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: about to hear him say, he said freely. What Joe
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: Hogue is about to do is put those interviews under
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: a microscope and tell you what he thinks he sees.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: It's his opinion. It's not a verdict. I also want
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: to mention that in the moment, I didn't tell Hogue
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: I was taping our phone calls. It's just something I
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: get in the habit of doing when I work on
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: the podcast. So he's probably not as cautious and as
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: guarded as he might have been if he knew the
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: tape was rolling. Later, I asked if it was okay
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: to use our conversation, and he agreed. Anyway, let me
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: start where the night ended. Here's Joe Henry telling me
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: about the last time he saw Kelly.
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: We closed the store about 8 p.m. That was a
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: normal time to close.
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: I went in the back.
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: Kelly stayed up front to do all the reconciling, the
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: cash store and all that stuff, you know, for the day.
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: I go in the back and get my VCR stuff ready.
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: And when she gets done, she comes back there and
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: we go out the back door, set the alarm. And
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: if I'm, this is not vague, but if I'm admitting
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: this correct, she goes around and throws the trash away.
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: And when she comes back around, I say, do you
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: open tomorrow?
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: And she says, yes.
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: And I said, okay, I'll see you. And I got
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: in my truck and she got in her car.
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: And the rest, as I say, is history.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: So Joe was the last person to see Kelly Wilson alive.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: And the way he wraps the whole thing up is just, well,
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: we got in our cars and that's that. I'm sure
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: he's described that night a million times to the point
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: where it's almost like he's reading it off a page somewhere.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: And that's exactly what Joe Hogue hears. And then Hogue
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: tells me to go back and really listen because Joe
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: Henry corrects himself twice.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: So in your interview, Do you know there's two times
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: where he corrects himself? Where the first one is he says,
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: I'm the last one to see her, but then he says, well,
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: I'm the proverbial.
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: I'm the proverbial last person to see her. I wasn't,
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: but whatever happened was the last person. But I'm the
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: proverbial last person to see her.
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: And then later he says, you had asked him about
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: the person she is and everything. And he says she
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: was a good person. And then he catches himself and says, well,
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: she may be out there.
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: Kelly was a very sweet girl. And as far as
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: I know, she didn't say maybe she is a sweet girl.
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: She may be out there still. I mean, I can't,
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: you know, that's very optimistic to think all that.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: Have you ever had anybody else you've interviewed say, catch
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: their self in that past tense present tense when they've
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: made a statement like that so you know the only
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: people that do that are people that have researched it
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: and people that have watched a lot of interviews from
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: other people like what you can watch on youtube there's
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: hundreds of interviews of police interviewing people where they confess
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: you know to the murderers well In the course of
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: those stories, who's ever doing the story that publishes that content?
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: It's an editorial type piece of work. And so they're
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: educating the public and they'll stop it and say, see
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: what he did here? He catches himself by saying past
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: tense or present tense, right? Right.
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: So this guy has researched that. And when he did it,
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: he caught himself. You see what I'm saying? So a
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: normal person wouldn't catch their self like that.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: And this right here is where Joe Hogue and I
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: start to part ways a little bit. Because, you know,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: I was in the room for these interviews. The first
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: was at the burger joint and the second was in
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Joe's living room.
• 14:39
  Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I took it to mean that, you know,
• 14:42
  Speaker 5: he thinks about her as probably dead.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: And then in that moment, he thought, well, I don't
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: really know. You know, she might be out there. So
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: that's why he corrected himself. To Hogue, that little slip
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: is a possibly guilty man catching himself. To me, it
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: could just be a guy who spent 30 years assuming
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: the worst, and then right in the middle of it,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: he doesn't want to be the one to bury Kelly.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Even if it's kind of far-fetched that she's still alive
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: at this point. He says he's just being hopeful, so
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: which is it? And that honestly is why I try
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: to keep the guessing part of my brain shut off
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: and stick to what I can actually stand behind. Also,
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: I don't really have any training or experience interrogating people
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: like Joe Hogue does. And Joe Hogue, well, he was
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: just getting warmed up.
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: Another thing is he never answered the questions you asked
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: and he redirected.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Like, he never specifically answered questions that you asked. And
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: he's redirecting a lot toward people. When you do ask
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: him specifics... He always says, oh, I can't remember. Oh,
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: I can't remember her name or his name. And like
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: the boyfriend, he's like, oh, I don't remember his name.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: And it's like, oh, he's a really bad person.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: The person that Hogue is mostly referring to here is
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Chris Denton, Kelly Wilson's supposed boyfriend, although their friends say
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: they weren't really dating. And it's true. Joe Henry does
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: point at Chris.
• 16:11
  Speaker 6: Had you ever met or heard her talking about Chris Denton?
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: Absolutely not.
• 16:17
  Speaker 6: Can you tell me all about that?
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I will tell you anything you want to know
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: about that.
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: Should some of this be off the record since he's
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: passed away? And, I mean, I know his family. I mean,
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: I don't want to.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: Do you think it would be all right?
• 16:31
  Speaker 5: I mean, I can just say whatever you feel comfortable with.
• 16:34
  Speaker 6: But, oh, it's, I mean, I'm going to go into
• 16:37
  Speaker 6: all of it, you know.
• 16:38
  Speaker 7: Okay.
• 16:38
  Speaker 6: All right.
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: Yes, the morning that he'd been hanging around there, matter
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: of fact, the night before, which would have been Saturday night,
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: He came in. I don't remember seeing him.
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: Maybe I did.
• 16:51
  Speaker 6: I don't know.
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: But they rented some movies.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: Him and whoever else. They rented some movies.
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: Those movies were rented on Saturday night. Should have been
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: back Sunday. They weren't turned in until the following Thursday.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure why Chris racking up late fees on
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: his movie rentals is the first place we go here,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: but anyway.
• 17:10
  Speaker 6: He was not a good guy.
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: And I never did say anything to her about it.
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: I just thought that You know, why would you want
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: to hang around with him? But again, I mean, that's
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: not my place to do that. But they were not
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: the kind of people you need to hang around with.
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: I think some drugs came out later on that they've
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: done drugs and things like that.
• 17:33
  Speaker 6: He and Kelly had?
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: We know Kelly smoked pot like a lot of people do,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: but I've never heard anyone say she used hard drugs ever.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: Joe Henry has got a couple of his own theories
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: on the case. And this one is the same thing
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: he told investigators when they asked him what he thought happened.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: It starts with a couple of Kelly's acquaintances who returned
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: their movie rentals days late, right after she vanished.
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: Well, if I had to say what I think, I
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: think that they all went out, something happened, they got scared,
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: and that was that. But that's way speculation on my part.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: He does that constantly, by the way. tells me it's
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: only a guess that he's not trying to blame anybody
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: that I should forgive him for even saying any of
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: this out loud. Chris Denton was obviously the cop's number
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: one suspect back in the day, but there was never
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: any evidence tying him to Kelly's disappearance. And rumors that
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: he made a deathbed confession were unfounded. But on this
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: whole redirect thing, I see where Hoag is coming from.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Joe Henry does kind of nudge you toward other people.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: He just does it apologetically the whole time. Nice guy.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: Or nervous.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: Then there's the night itself, what Joe Henry did after
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: he pulled out of the parking lot. I asked him
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: so he laid the whole evening out.
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: I'd gone home that night. My mom was home. The
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: next door neighbor saw me come home. I got out
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: the grocery store. I went and bought some stuff for
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: my mom to cook, some frozen stuff. Went home, took
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: a shower, ate supper, called my girlfriend, talked to her.
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: She called me back in a little bit, and this
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: was crazy, and asked me, she says, is your dog
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: in the yard? And I thought, yeah, I think so.
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: So I got up and looked out the window, and
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: there he was, you know.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: His girlfriend, her name was Angela, and it's what Joe
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Henry said next that Hogue really grabbed onto.
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: All these people, and I tried to say, y'all go
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: comp for these people. We don't need to, it's all right.
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: So I thought, well, okay. I mean, I've never had
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: any experience with anything like this before, and this is
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: just terrifying.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: So Joe Henry says he handed the police a list
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: of people who could put him where he said he was.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: And the way he tells it, they waved him off.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Said they didn't need that list. And now, 30 years
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: down the line, nobody can check even if they wanted to.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: His mom's gone. Angela's gone.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: Everybody he points to is dead. Like, he said his
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: girlfriend's dead. I didn't know his mom had passed.
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: So nobody can corroborate where he was.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: And that's true. But it's also what 30 years does
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: to people. The people who could have backed up one
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: ordinary man's one ordinary evening, they're gone now. Not because
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: of anything sinister, just because that's what time does. Both
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: of those things can be true at the same time.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: To Joe Hogue, it was a story where all the
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: witnesses conveniently died off. To me, it could also mean
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: that he's just an old man now, and the people
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: who knew where he was that night, they got old too,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: and they died just like people do. Although it's weird,
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: you know, the whole thing about the girlfriend asking if
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: his dog was in the yard. The other thing Hogue
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: kept coming back around to was money. Because when I
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: talked to Joe Henry, he told me the cops and
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: the FBI kept hitting him with the same question again
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: and again.
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: They said, you wouldn't have given her any money to
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: go somewhere, would you?
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: I said, no, sir, I didn't.
• 20:59
  Speaker 6: Check my bank account.
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: FBI said the same thing.
• 21:02
  Speaker 6: Check my bank account.
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: They really kind of played on a little about the money.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: The way Joe Henry figured it, they thought he'd handed
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: Kelly cash to run off somewhere. Because he had his
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: own idea about where she went. And it wasn't dark
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: at all. It was honestly kind of sweet. There was
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: a boy she was crazy about, a college kid named Josh,
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: who came back through town around Christmas.
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: You know, very first thing I was like, yeah, she
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: done took off going with him. Because he was at
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: Christmas and left to go back, I say Christmas, right
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: around Christmas, to go back to wherever he went to school.
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: And I just kind of thought after this, I thought, mm-hmm,
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: and she ran off with this guy because they really
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: liked each other.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: 30 years on, and Joe Henry says he still wants
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: to believe Kelly Wilson climbed in a car and drove
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: off towards some better life somewhere else. To Hogue, that's
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: just Joe Henry pointing off in another direction again, so
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: you're not looking at him. To someone who's more sympathetic
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: to Joe Henry, this might not sound like a dodge
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: at all. Maybe it sounds like a guy who just
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: can't stand the other possibility. For what it's worth, I
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: did track down Kelly's boyfriend at the time, Josh, and
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: she definitely did not run off with him, so there's that.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: And it wasn't just about money. Joe Henry had bought
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: all the girls who worked at the store Christmas presents
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: that year. Kelly got perfume.
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: I bought all the girls presents for Christmas, and I
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: was kind of reprimanded about that. But anyway, not reprimanded,
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: but just kind of, you know, like, why'd you do that? Well,
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: I just, that's what I do, you know, I just
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: like my.
• 22:32
  Speaker 6: I bought her a bottle of perfume.
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: I asked them what they liked, and so I bought
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: them that. I wish I hadn't done that, but anyway.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: So this could just be a lonely man who was
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: fond of his young employees, now embarrassed at how all
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: this sounds. Then again, if you've listened to our past episodes,
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: you also know this.
• 22:50
  Speaker 7: One thing you're probably going to discover, and I won't
• 22:52
  Speaker 7: explain this to you in case you do, if you
• 22:55
  Speaker 7: don't already know. Joe has a conviction for child pornography.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: This is Joe Henry's old friend Philip Williams, the reporter
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: from the Gilmer newspaper.
• 23:05
  Speaker 7: Now what happened was he had a friend who was
• 23:08
  Speaker 7: into it heavy. Joe had told him to get rid
• 23:11
  Speaker 7: of it. He's certainly no pedophile.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: Philip says that Joe was simply downloading zip drives for
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: his friend Tony, and he had no idea what was
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: on all those zip drives.
• 23:23
  Speaker 7: Joe told me that he was downloading stuff for this
• 23:27
  Speaker 7: Tony and couldn't see what he was downloading.
• 23:29
  Speaker 6: What turned out was child pornography.
• 23:32
  Speaker 7: They came and got Joe's computer one day and found
• 23:35
  Speaker 7: 10 images on there.
• 23:38
  Speaker 6: So he pled no contest.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: Joe did not have just 10 images. The files from
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: his criminal case showed he had thousands of images on
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: his computer. Joe's credit card was also used to purchase
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: a membership to a child pornography website. Now, this is horrible,
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: but none of this has anything to do with Kelly's disappearance.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: The bust happened over a decade after she came up missing.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: Joe served five years of probation, and he moved on
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: with his life.
• 24:07
  Speaker 6: I mean, talk to people like me who've known him
• 24:09
  Speaker 6: a long time.
• 24:09
  Speaker 7: They'll tell you there ain't no way in hell Joe
• 24:11
  Speaker 7: Henry's a child molester or pedophile.
• 24:13
  Speaker 6: But I figured you might uncover this in the course
• 24:16
  Speaker 6: of your research. And I wanted you to know what
• 24:19
  Speaker 6: the true story is as far as I believe it
• 24:22
  Speaker 6: to be.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: But you might also remember from past episodes that Joe
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: admitted to some highly inappropriate behavior toured Kelly when they
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: were working together at the video store. He admits that
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: he even offered Kelly $ 1, 000 for sex. He propositioned a minor.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: The $ 1, 000.
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: Oh, yes.
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: That was totally out of context. That was just some
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: horseplay that wasn't hot. Definitely not serious.
• 24:49
  Speaker 8: No.
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: Just, you know, just doing things, saying things you shouldn't.
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: Absolutely not. But yeah, they blew that all out of whack.
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: But that was horseplay and just saying things that you
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: shouldn't do. But no, that was certainly not done, but
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: taken out of context as to what was said. And so, yeah,
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: that was an hour. Then something else was brought.
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: Up that was.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: I think it was like pulling up some pants.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. Well, it was... What's the word?
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: What are they called when you pull your pants up?
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: A wedgie?
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: Wedgie.
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: Well, again, that was one of those things. And she jumped,
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: and I came down rather than go up. And I'm like, oh,
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: I'm sorry. And that was taken out of context.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Totally wrong.
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: Should have been doing that kind of stuff, just horse playing.
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: But that was what that was about.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: But the money thing was just taken out of context
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: and just silly talk.
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: Just jump.
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 25:52
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Do you remember why y'all were talking about when that
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: came up?
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: I think that she was checking up. And it had
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: to do with the VCR repair money. It might have been,
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: I don't remember now exactly, but it had to do
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: with the VCR repair money. And I think that maybe
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: somebody had paid and she was taking it out of
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: the drawer.
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: It was extra out of the drawer.
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: And I don't remember exactly what was said, but it
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: was something about the money, about the $ 1, 000. And I
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: was trying to think what I said, something about it.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: Something.
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: I summed up the $ 1, 000, and I said, oh, well,
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: the bank's not open or something like that. It's just junk.
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: Very embarrassing after that came out, but I assure you,
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: it was just junk talk.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: To Joe Hogue, it wasn't just talk.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: He admitted he'd been given her money.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: He's never been married. He tells you he was buying
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: her gifts, right? He's buying her perfume and jewelry.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: So I asked him straight out, What do you think happened?
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: I just don't understand how they looked over him. I
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: just don't understand how they moved past him.
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: It's all there. It's all there. I just, I personally
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: think he'll confess.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: He'll confess. That is a heavy, heavy thing to say
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: about a man who was never charged and apparently wasn't
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: even taken seriously as a suspect in Kelly's case. And
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I keep coming back to from
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: my first talk with Joe Henry at his burger joint.
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: I never left that store again until everybody was off
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: the premises. I'll promise you that. And I'll live with
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: that the rest of my life, wondering if I had
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: stayed 10 more minutes, if things would be different.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: After the break, Joe Hogue puts the interviews down and
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: he picks up the phone. After I walked into Joe
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: Henry's burger joint on the town square in Gilmer, and
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: we talked for over an hour, Joe Henry got really sick.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: Several months went by, and the next time I saw him,
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: he had lost so much weight he looked like a
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: different person. He told me he'd been diagnosed with achalasia,
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: a disorder that makes it really hard for you to swallow.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: Achalasia is rare, but oddly enough, my wife also has achalasia,
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: so I'm pretty familiar with it. It can be a
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: rough illness, and it forced Joe Henry to retreat from
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: public life. He closed his burger joint, sold the building.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: He decided to draw up a will. We talked about
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: this in Episode 8. To Joe Hogue, all of this
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: was important context.
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: What was going through your mind when you see how
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: much weight he's lost, and he's telling you he's sick,
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: and he tells you that he's done a will.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: I'm like, he's He's telling you that he's prepared himself
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: to die.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, just the sight of him was shocking.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: How much weight he lost.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: So right away when you saw how much weight he lost,
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: you just thought, this is a flag. Yeah.
• 29:13
  Speaker 8: I mean, I honestly don't remember if I saw that as,
• 29:17
  Speaker 8: you know, evidence of his guilt. But I definitely, you know,
• 29:20
  Speaker 8: you can't help but just be shocked to see him
• 29:23
  Speaker 8: in such poor shape. skin and bones and just having
• 29:27
  Speaker 8: kind of a hard time getting around and looking like
• 29:29
  Speaker 8: he'd aged about 20 years in six.
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: Months, you know?
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because you knew that that process started when you left.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: So by now, Joe Hogue is... is more than convinced.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: He's got himself a suspect. Up to now, everything he'd done,
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: he had done alone, on his own time, on his
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: own dime, sitting in a state truck at the border
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: with my interviews playing in his ears. But Joe Hogue
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: is not the kind of guy who's just going to
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: sit back and stew on something. He made up his
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: mind to do something about this.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: I've been calling people that work there, and they're just like,
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: have moved on from it, and I don't understand.
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: I'm like, how?
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Nearly 30 years of wearing the badge, you build up
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: a pretty thick Rolodex. You know people. So Joe Hogue
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: started working the phone.
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: So Glenn Davenport, he is the Texas Ranger that, he's
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: going to be taking over Upshur County, I think he
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: said on January the 1st.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: He is a very A Texas Ranger was taking over
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: the very county that Gilmer sits in on January 1st,
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: just a few days after we talked.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: I had also called the Texas Rangers, and believe it
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: or not, I did not get a call back. But
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: this Texas Ranger, he happened to be one of Joe
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: Hogue's friends. Hogue had already been on the phone with
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: him about Kelly, and he was driving to the man's
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: house to sit down in person. And that wasn't the
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: only line Hogue was working.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: But I'm going to talk to somebody else tonight, because
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: I know some people that are like, like high up
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: and have like high connections. So, It's very important that
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: the right people get involved in this.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: It's just very important.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: And I think we got one shot at this.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: One shot. He must have said that phrase a dozen times.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: And here's what he meant by that. In Joe Hoke's mind,
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: there was maybe one more chance ever to get Joe
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: Henry to sit for another interview. And it would only
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: work if Joe Henry said yes on his own. which
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: meant it couldn't be some cop kicking down a door.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: It had to be exactly the right person in exactly
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: the right chair asking exactly the right way.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: I think you're going to get one shot at this
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: to interview him, and that's going to be very, very,
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: very important. So it's my opinion that that person has,
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: that is a huge decision. That's a huge pick.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Joe Hogue thought Joe Henry would say yes.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: You may have one opportunity to do it, and that
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: would only be if he agreed to be interviewed again,
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: and I feel like he would because he talked to
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: you for so... He didn't seem real reluctant to not
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: talk to you.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Hogue wasn't really afraid that Joe Henry would clam up.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: He was afraid we'd waste the one chance to catch
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: him while he was talking. But he was dead certain
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: about one thing. Whoever finally sat in that chair across
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: from Joe Henry, it could not be him.
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: It ain't me. I got too much emotion.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: That's interesting, right? The same thing that had Joe Hogue
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: so sure Joe Henry was guilty, that's the exact same
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: thing telling him to stay the hell out of the room.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: He knew he was too worked up, too sure of himself,
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: to be the guy asking the questions. Joe Hogue didn't
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: tell me this in so many words, but I've always
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: wondered if he takes Kelly's case so personally because he
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: also has a teenage daughter. And you can tell he's
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: incredibly proud of her. He's a girl dad. So Hogue
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: wanted somebody else, a cold professional, someone who wouldn't flinch,
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: wouldn't push too hard, wouldn't want it too bad. And
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: that person could not be Joe Hogue. And you know,
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: a guy who wants a case to be solved more
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: than he wants to be the one who solves it,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: I respect that. There was another thing that Joe Hogue
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: was risking that we didn't talk about much, but it
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: hung over all of our conversations. Joe Hogue was a
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: full-time state trooper, and he was off in his own lane,
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: working somebody else's cold case on his own time, leaning
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: on his own friendships to get a ranger to take
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: a second look. These were not your normal channels, and
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: he knew that. Joe Hogue was doing this anyway. So
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: I asked him, why this one? Out of every cold case,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: every confession... all those hundreds of hours listening to interrogation tapes,
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: why did this one grab you and not let go?
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: Nobody can give me these answers, and it's not acceptable.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: If somebody can give me these answers, then okay, then
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: I'll have to accept that. But right now, nobody can
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: answer questions that I'm asking.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: And that's really what it felt like, because for a
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: while it felt like we'd lost all our momentum. the
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: show was over, there were no new episodes, we'd stalled out.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: And then out of nowhere, this trooper down on the border,
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: a guy I'd never met and never would have expected,
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: reaches out and picks the whole thing back up off
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: the ground.
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: It's not dormant. I mean, things are happening.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: Things are happening. Hogue said he'd call me back in
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: a day or two once he'd talked to his people
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: and tell me what he was allowed to say and
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: what he wasn't.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna do what I can to or some things
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: to get looked at here.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: And he did call back. And what he told me
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: the next time we talked, that's where this stops being
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: a trooper with a theory and a phone, and starts
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: getting real close to Joe Henry's front door. Next time
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: on Deviltown, Joe Hogue keeps pushing. Deviltown is a free-range
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: production in association with Imperative Entertainment. The show is created
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: by me, Wes Ferguson. This episode was produced by Aislinn Gaddis.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: Music by Robert Ellis. To keep up with us, check
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: out our free newsletter at UnforgottenPod.com. As always, thank you
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: for listening.