Latest / The Her Promise Circle Podcast / Overcoming Spiritual Bypassing Grief, Anxiety & Church Trauma With Dr. Alduan Tartt
Transcript
- Michal Renee': Welcome back to the Her Promise Circle podcast. I'm your girl, Mikel. I'm the host of this top 3 % global podcast. Thank you, Jesus. Today, it is Dr. Aldo Antart. And he is amazing because he combines our faith with psychology, helping us not to gloss over our traumatic moments that we've been through. As you know, your girl's story is riddled with trauma, riddled with grief, riddled with my anxiety diagnosis, But I go way too deep into my story, sharing it with Dr. Tarp. And he offers some encouragement that may help you with your process as well. So come and get this vulnerable conversation, girlie. We'll see you in a moment. speaker-0: Thank you for being here today. speaker-1: Excited. Excited? I am. Okay. I am. I am I've been saying I was gonna do this for a while. speaker-0: Yes, yes sir. It has been a little bit. But we made it. We're here. That's right. But I really thought it was important to have you on because I have never really met anyone in the space that mixes faith and mental health, like purposefully, in a way that like you actually it's part of your brand. speaker-1: Me other than yourself. speaker-0: Well, that's what that's what I'm getting to But whenever it comes to actually talking about it in the public, like I haven't met anyone like that. Cause it's just nice to not feel like you're by yourself in this. speaker-1: Yeah, no, it's a bunch of people. That's how, you know, Elijah felt. But it was a bunch. It's a bunch. It's a whole association speaker-0: That is true. speaker-1: counselors. But it's like Right, but it's not that many people of color. Thank speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: you. Especially, you know, being an African American psychologist and a minister. Yeah. But most psychologists of color lead with their faith. speaker-0: Love that. speaker-1: So they may not identify as a Christian psychologist or faith-based psychologist, but most black folks, people of color. Okay. Right. you know, go to church. Right. Right. Yeah, so Salat. Mm-hmm. speaker-0: I love that. And I think that had I known or if I was more tapped into God when I had my mental health crisis, I probably would have wanted someone who understood the faith. But it's just really refreshing to see someone who is building because we're not just like in the space, like we're building community, like we're ministering, we're also putting it out in the public. Like this is what we identify as. 'Cause like you said, there are a lot of Christian counselors, but they don't necessarily lead with it. speaker-1: Well, we have not promoted it, right? So we've allowed the world to be able to promote the and so we get upset when we should be following their marketing model, right? This is what God wants. God wants us to be able to expand our territory. Yeah. And so also psychologists and mental health taught to be quiet, you know, taught to just just be, you know, behind the scenes. Yeah. But in this day and age of creative space, people are screaming for the fusion. Of mental health and scripture. That's what God intended. speaker-0: A Exactly. I always tell my girls, I'm like, How am I living life well without the manual? speaker-1: But how do you apply it? See, that's what people want. Yeah, it says be anxious about nothing. speaker-0: Come on, but how do I do that? Like health coaching. Okay. Like, but I really took mine into like behavioral change and I do stress regulation, nervous system regulation. I had to learn all of that, like later just to manage my anxiety diagnosis. But we'll get to that. speaker-1: No, no, you're preaching already. So be still and know that I am God. Yeah. But how? speaker-0: Ha speaker-1: People want application. And that is why we agreed to do this. Yes. And then for you to fitness and and and just look at the camera. I've been working out five days a week. I just want to let y'all know he's five days a week. I've been I've been on it. I would like to say that was because of fitness, but it's really because of stress. speaker-0: Period. Yes. And that matters a lot. Yeah. So why psychology and not like a medical doctor or like any other doctor or profession? Like why mental health? speaker-1: when I when I was in high school I realized I was an empath. Or I didn't know I didn't know that term. I just saw someone was hungry. Like yeah, y'all clearly see or she does not have lunch. You clearly don't offer them anything to eat. You see these people sleeping on their bridge. No one stops and asks for their story. You see, we all know, you know, he got we used to call the Joni. I'm from Atlanta. Yeah. You see he got embarrassed or he got beaten up in front of everyone and no one's gonna check on him. He says he's good, but who says they're not? Right. So it was something that I I saw, something that I felt. And then of course being in the church, I was able to see, you know, both worlds. But I never saw the fusion. So for me, psychology became alive. And I like drama. So people fighting. Like why y'all why y'all fighting? What's going on? You know, I see you looking at him. Why don't you go ahead and talk to him? And I you know, facilitate I'm from Atlanta. So I had access to a career day. So one, our wrestling coach, even not in wrestle, the wrestling coach. Was very a great an excellent teacher And then for a career day he invited in a professor at Morehouse, Doctor Alan Carter. Who speaker-0: Nice. speaker-1: who who fused faith and psychology. Many but also the spiritual realm. Okay. Right. So I saw that early on. And so when he came to career day and he said what he did, and I was like, I'm going to Morehouse and that's what I want to do. So that's when it it it sunk in. And then also reading, you know how you're drawn towards I was drawn towards pain. Okay. Right. And then being able to carry that. So then I was able to read and be able to figure out, hey, I can actually help. So it was between psychology and law. Yeah. Both of them saved the world. And then I did a tour of the jail and I was like, nah. That's not for me. That's not for me. Because I can't help them. They're already here. And I did a lot of internships There's Maxie's Boys Detention Center Metro R Y D C I the whole the whole system. But I was like, if I meet here All I can do is maintain and hope that they do well. So I wanted to actually prevent them from coming into the legal system, criminal system. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, I've done it all. speaker-0: So you said that you had the capacity for seeing other people's pain and like the hurting. You're like, okay, you're the one that noticed. Cause in high school it's like you kind of join in with the jest like naturally, but like you didn't. You were more of like an empath. What pain did you experience? Like did you carry your own pain? Like I heard you talk about ev seeing other people, but like how did you did you have any sort of things going speaker-1: I was blessed. I did not have any type of traumas. I right? We're talking about going to Cranbrook. I had a blessed life. Two parents, parents still married, right? Mom's a doctor, speaker-0: Black X. speaker-1: you know, dad's, you know, degree, brother's a doctor, right? So it's kind of respected, right? So, but I did not go to private school. I did go to like my mom and my mom and dad both work for the public school system. My brother does. He's a a deputy Chief. my gosh. You in the cap now, so we believe in the public system. Yeah. Public you know, public schools. But I was in advanced class, so I did not really have any trauma until my first week of college. So when I was in I was actually in high school in college at the same time. Okay. So we graduated, you know, you get out early. Yeah. But I was going to graduation practice and also Summer Science Institute at Morehouse at the same time. Yeah. And first week there we met a a guy by the name of Shari DiLo. Okay. He's from California. He was two, three years younger than us. Right? He was extremely bright, right? And so he skipped so many different grades. And he lived across the hall. And so we talked about going out. I was like gonna go to this graduation party and I'm gonna show you how I talk to girls. Right? Since you 'cause Right, speaker-0: You were the mentor, got it. speaker-1: right. So you know, certain things you're gifted in, right? To give the game. Because he helped me to actually write better. Right. So we're in class, you know, I'm just writing my paper, right? And then, you know, I get a grade that I've never gotten and then they like, You should probably read Oshari, right? So anyway, so because he helped me academically, I said, all right, gotcha. I'm gonna help you to be able to talk to girls, especially since you're younger, you're from California and this is a different environment. So anyway, so we went out, stopped by McDonald's. I saw you need to warm up, you need to go ahead and get the girl's phone number and the drive through, right? speaker-0: You gave him a bigger silence. speaker-1: But hey, y you know, every man knows you have to build your confidence up. so and he didn't listen to anything that I said. He was just, Let me get your number. Because Oshar was a nice looking guy, right? And she said, Alright, I like, Okay, you just gonna demo the number, right? And so she started to write it down and then she looked to the back and then she said, Never mind And I w and we were cracking up like man I'm I've had people say no, I've never had someone Give a rebate on the number. I No, we're cracking up. But the sad part is that when we pulled off, this is right on Canler Road, if you know Atlanta, gunsides rang out and shot and killed Oshari D.I.L.O. on Her ex boyfriend was in the drive-thru behind speaker-0: And so speaker-1: saw the exchange, saw the Morehouse shirt. speaker-0: my goodness. speaker-1: Toxic shame, all of this stuff, and fired into the car and at that moment O'Shari's life was taken. so I was driving and then it was two of my friends from Lathonia that also in the summer science science program two of our friends that we met at Morehouse. And so then I had to give you know, C PR, yeah So that was my first introduction to trauma right there. So of course the lawyers came in, we were pulled out of school for a couple of days. And we just had to deal with that situation. And that to me, God spoke. You know, we lost one, but you will save many. That is where psychology became very personal. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Because it seemed as if Oshari was a sacrifice. he was he was spotless. I mean, this he was raised the right way. His parents did the right thing by him. There was no malice. There wasn't he didn't even get the phone number. Right. Right. And it was all just speaker-0: Sense. speaker-1: Coming of age. Yeah. Right. And ironically, I actually met the shooter, right? Because I started speaking in juvenile detention centers. And when he saw me, he asked to be excused to the back. And I said, nah, no, I want to talk to you. I was like, I need to understand, you know, why that happened. Yeah. when I got the backstory. Foster care. one house to another, feeling no value. And he said that was the last betrayal. And he said he really wasn't trying to to to kill anyone, he was just really trying to show off. Right, because Oshari ducked and the bullet hit the very bottom of the window. He was just trying to you know, one minute and he took an innocent light. And that has speaker-0: Hard button speaker-1: bonded all of us. But it was definitely personal to me because I was in psychology and you know, and the driver and his mentor. Yeah. You know, so that's when it I God spoke to me, you will say many. So I never I never take a a day off. Now I take day off to rest because God orders have margin. But this is never fun and games for me. speaker-0: Exactly. Exactly. No, I totally get that. I also had a good stable home. Like, but it was a two parent household in a non-traditional sense, I guess. So I'm adopted. there are seven of us. Okay. yeah, there's seven of us and our birth mother couldn't keep any of us. when I say my mom, I w I went home with my mom like two like day one. So I didn't even really understand the whole adoption thing, and I'm not very close to my birth mom. Okay. Follow the story, it's very complicated, but she's she's I'm telling you, so my mom. My adopted mother is my birth mother's aunt. So she's her niece and I'm her great niece. Okay. So when I say mom from now on, that's what I'm talking about. and also Yes. speaker-1: L learn genograms in school. speaker-0: You know what, I think I wouldn't have even been as like aware of it but because I was exposed to environment that my family couldn't have exposed me to because all of them sort of live in poverty, like addiction, et cetera. My mom really separated me from that. So I always say from the beginning, like God always had a plan for me because that was my way out. So my mom, yeah, a hundred percent, like literally set apart. Like that's literally how I look at it. And my mom couldn't have kids. And she was like, I will take her. So my mom adopted me. And my mom is the only like Christian church every Sunday. and her spiritual mother I call grandmother. So it was them two in the households. My mom worked, my mom's a disciplinarian and grandma was grandma, right? Like very sweet, very like, you know, just let her go, give her candy after you know, before dinner, like very grandma. I was like eight and nine. Like I loved God so much as a kid. I was tithing my allowance, like young. Like I loved him so early and I remember his presence even really early. I recognized it. I would be like leading choir or doing like the church plays. And you can sing. No. if I could speaker-1: I didn't know that. I knew some of this. speaker-0: you would know. Okay. Okay. I would be annoying. speaker-1: I'm sure. speaker-0: honey, everything I have, I'm capitalizing on you would know I can sing. So This is why when I try to explain to the girls, like I grew up in church, like I'm literally a grand PK. So she was my grandma was a pastor and was holding prayer meetings. But she had this, she called it Streams in the Desert, and she would do this women's ministry. And she would run out venues and like do like sort of like mini conferences in our small town. Now mind you, I'm from Western PA. So like Everything is really rural and spread apart, but people were coming to these and like it was really powerful. And I witnessed all this so yeah, I was I was a PK. Like I loved it. I was willingly a PK. but I also had friends who had parents who were very lax. So I started drinking really early, like 14, 13. and like wanting to party and explore, et cetera. And around that time, my grandma got diagnosed with ovarian cancer. And you know, that's super aggressive. but we laid hands on her and she went under a mission. And I was like, you know what, Laura? You know, it's fine. I graduated high school. She's like, I knew I asked God to let me see you graduate high school, you know? I'm like, of course he did. Like, why are we everyone was like getting sad. I had childlike faith then. I hadn't been disciplined. I was very much, God's gonna do it. Like that's what the Bible says. So why are we worried? I go away to school. Sh, it came back. So cancer came back. And I was like enjoying my college life. but God's gonna heal you. I would call her and stuff like that. And I remember going home for Christmas to visit her that first year, and I told her she was having a she was being really sincere with me. And I was just like, You're not gonna die. So like I don't know why you're doing this. Like I literally said that. Like, you know how someone I think they like come to grips and they just Wanna make sure you know that that they love you and stuff like that. And she was doing that with me. And I was like, stop. Like God's gonna heal you. Like it's fine. and then sh January 10th, so that was she passed away. So like what, like a week and a half later, two weeks later. Yeah, so that was my freshman year. and immediately I'm like, if I if I genuinely thought she was dying, I would have went home more. But I was like living the college experience, like I'm enjoying myself. And I genuinely remember consciously choosing not to go home several times for like just to be with my friends and stuff, because I really didn't think that she was going to die. I genuinely was like, it's he's gonna heal her again. So my first heartbreak was God. speaker-1: What do you mean God? speaker-0: Because it was like I faced him being the opposite of what I thought he was. He hurt my feelings. Because I I think in those moments when I was like, I'm not gonna go home, like she's gonna be fine. It's because I was giving it to him, her to him, right? And I just really thought he was going to heal her. And Yeah, I I can't describe it to you other than like heartbreak. I was heart genuinely heartbroken because it was like a shattered thing. Like this is a woman I witnessed rubbing oil on me in the morning, right? Like speaking in tongues at 5 a.m. Like the church saint, like give her shirt off your back, feeding the homeless, like when other people weren't. And I'm like, she did everything right. Now this is a 19-year-old mine, right? And and I'm just like, she did everything right. I mean, what more could she have done to show you that she is a devoted Christian and loves you? And from that day on, like I was like, what is the point? I'm not doing a lot of stuff that everybody else is doing. I don't see the re I don't understand it. And you might not even be real at this point. speaker-1: No, I mean that was for a lot of people when we start talking about being young in faith. Yeah. And you had seen signs and wonders. You had seen miracles. speaker-0: So early. speaker-1: That was God was like an ATM. You push him and you always get a return. Versus what your grandmother knew is that it it God's ways are mysterious. We we never know the time or place. And that he sustained, he was a prayer answerer. He sustained your grandma. until you were able to go to college. Right? But I can see as a nineteen year old you looked at it as God has betrayed me. God has turned his back, you know, versus what all of us have to accept. None of us are in control of this life. None of us get to say when the time is. And so we start looking at that, we start talking about emotional maturity. There's two pathways. Yeah. One is the positive. Yeah. Positive maturity and then one is the negative. Yeah. So the negative is like God wasn't there for me. God didn't save my marriage. God didn't save my son. God didn't take care of this rent. Yes. God didn't get rid of this dementia. right? So all these different things and so it looks like God speaker-0: Forsaked you. Like forsake you. Like literally that's what it speaker-1: Like versus God is omniscient and omnipotent and we'll never understand his ways. Yeah. And so that would have been, especially since we're talking about mental health. Yeah. That would have been a great opportunity for mental health to come into play, for the church to be able to come into play, to be able to understand that. Like, you know, I'm on the board, Fanami, National Association, mental illness, and w there's chapters. on campuses that we're trying to get every campus to be able to intercede. Yes. And so that's a an opportunity. If you know someone, you know, has suffered a loss, that's the time to be able to intervene because that's when you were most radical. speaker-0: Exactly. speaker-1: I can say this now, we can say this as mature believers, but in nineteen everyone speaker-0: my God. speaker-1: Sor I'm sorry you went. speaker-0: Well, it was just, I mean, that was the beginning of like a waterfall of trauma. So that was my very first traumatic experience. And that's why I say my first heartbreak was God. Cause then after that, subsequently, it was just everything else. So a year after that, my best friend in high school passed away in a car accident. Like 10 months. Not even like, so so now I have compounded grief, right? But I don't really know how to deal with it. Because I feel like yes, I was sheltered and like had a stable home and all that, but it also kept me from like the realistic things of life. But I I feel like I went through grief so early. and I drank. Like, and you know what's what's crazy is that I said this in the episode with Akila, is that I was in the bar like prophesying to people. I I was literally like, I I could always feel him. I could he I know his voice. I was already could recognize it. and he would I would have I had years after that where it was just like moments where he like, Hey, come spend time with me today. And it was like, you know what? No, I'm not interested. Cause I know what he wants. I know what you want. I'm not interested. I'm got things to do. And so it was this constant push and pull with me and God. And I turned to relationships and alcohol and all that stuff. And so it got to a point where about four years later, five years later, I was like 25, my aunt, who was my mom's like closest to her her sister, she passed away. she had heart failure. and then three months later, my cousin passed away in his sleep from a heart attack, who was my father figure, right? So speaker-1: Now you are you in church at any of this? speaker-0: I had no spiritual practice. Like I would pray if something was going on or to pray over someone, but like that's really the extent of it. and so two months. Or what, the three months after my aunt passed, my cousin passed away in his sleep. And then my my cousin, who was my same age, 27, she was shot point blank and robbed seven days later. And I found that out on the news when I was away. So the grief I hadn't dealt with already, right? Plus this. I had a breakdown, literally. I was having panic attacks. And spiraling and all of that. And I remember going to a family member, a few, and they're like, Well, you know, life happens. Just pray about it. The Lord says, you know, the Lord got this and God got this and all of it. Right. And I was like, speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: I literally need help. Like, I know I'm not okay. And I'm very sad, but like beyond sad. Like it wasn't like I'm having a bad day. It was like I am hurting. and like just breaking down. So that was what I was told. And I remember just like laying in my bed because I couldn't sleep for days, Googling therapists. I did I had insurance. I was working a big girl job at this point and literally never been to one, didn't even like really comprehend how it worked. I thought like crazy people went to therapists, like, you know. And I'm like, well. Maybe that's me at this point. So I'm gonna Google it. And I started seeing one. And that's when I got diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, social anxiety, panic disorder, all those things. speaker-1: I mean when you when you when you describe it. It's really prolonged grief disorder. Right? So when we look at it it's like compound grief on top of grief on top of grief. speaker-0: Complex PTSD and all that good stuff. speaker-1: So all these different things are happening. And so when I start thinking about it, it's called spiritual bypassing. It's where we say, just pray about it. Lord's not gonna put more on you than he can. Come on. God's got this. Your grandma's in a better place. And and that's what the church has been taught. But it's n it's not the right way to approach it. It's not even in scripture. Yeah. Right? It says there's a time to to to reap, a time to sow. Yeah. A time to be happy, a time to grieve, time to mourn. A time to mourn. Right. And especially as the black folks, sometimes we just kinda push through it because trauma resiliency that we have to have. speaker-0: No one even cried at the funerals. speaker-1: Why? speaker-0: I walked in on my mom crying the evening we found out my grandma passed and when we went to the funerals, like none of my aunts cry. My aunts are like the matriarchs, right? And I I just think that they have this idea of themselves or what they're supposed to be that they just don't even they're just that's what they do. speaker-1: You're strong strong, but you're strong lifting weights. Exactly. You're strong studying for an exam, and you're tired. Yeah. When it comes to mourning, what was the first Bible verse you've probably learned? Jesus wept. David wailed. Come on. Isaiah said, I don't even want to be here. Yes. Right? Paul well, Peter you look throughout the Bible, Esther, Rebecca, right? And we said we look at Anna. And so when we we're looking at it, God is showing us, he says, Don't go to bed and let your anger. Yes. He's God is acknowledging emotion. speaker-0: Hundred percent. speaker-1: he's saying don't carry it. And we have to express it. And so I'm thinking, you know, as a psychologist, as an intervention, where could we have intervened? You know, where could the church have intervened? Where could mental health system intervene? Yeah. To be able to meet you where you are. Yeah. speaker-0: I didn't I didn't wanna hear it. I was not like if someone came to me on campus after that, like I literally speaker-1: Before a grief group? speaker-0: I just think you're underestimating how much of like a drunk I was. Also how much I was like speaker-1: And so watch the label when you say a drunk. And I know I know you're being casual, but you're numbing your pain. Yes from your pain. Yeah. But it is also the work of the enemy. Yeah. All right. Let me ask you this. If you can go back and talk to yourself at 19, what would you? speaker-0: You said I wouldn't have listened to me. I like it's really hard to explain me now. I'm a whole different person. Like my heart from the moment my grandma passed just began hardening. And I remember one day my mom actually told me, like, when I pray for you, I literally asked God to soften your heart. I am a person who thrives in connection and relationship, but it grief started teaching me that if I connect to people deeply, this is what happens. speaker-1: What worst of this? speaker-0: they leave, they die, they it it doesn't stay. So I taught myself to only let people see a certain level of me, but not enough of me to actually genuinely have connection. speaker-1: See that? You know, in psychology we call that reframing. N narrative therapy. The narrative you told yourself set you on a course. And and so even though I can't debate what you would say to yourself, speaker-0: I honestly don't I just speaker-1: You could refram it to God didn't break your heart, cancer did. See that's a that's a reframe. Yeah. Cancer took grandma and no one has control over what sometime God delivers. Yeah. You did deliver. Yeah. And sent her into remission for many years. But you can be the most anointed and still pass exact with cancer. And so that would have been an a potentially an opportunity to refrain. You should be heartbroken, but not with God. Yeah. But with cancer. Yeah. You should be angry. Angry. I mean the this the stickers and it's definitely affected my family. Cancer sucks. Yeah. Right. And s su to you. The death was sudden to your grandma. It wasn't. See, when we are vulnerable and we talk, that's how we are healed. Yeah. Therefore confess your sins are your troubles one to another. Yeah. So that they may be healed. Because the prayers of the righteous avails much. When we don't talk speaker-0: Exactly. Isolation. Exactly. speaker-1: whatever vices call our name. Yeah. Right. For you it was alcohol. It might be it might be men, it might be women, it might be work might be sleeping, might be video game. Whatever it is we can do to anesthes to to you know to try to cope. He's he's gonna give you something that you respond to. Yeah. Right? When we look at it and reframe it, it's thinking about this grief. You had too much grief in a short amount of time. And it overwhelm your nervous system. But when we speak, it's called co-regulation. See, me listening to you, you listening to me, co-regulates. We're able to downshift our nervous systems and be heard. Yeah. That is why God took the disciples and put them together. Yeah. Because on their own, they wouldn't have co-regulation through the brotherhood. Yeah. sisterhood. Come on. And so when the church says you know, smile and be stoic through all of it, that's the ramp. You don't you don't give flowers to a broken heart. This is where this is why we're doing the work to speaker-0: hundred percent. speaker-1: and you're actually, you know, in the prophetic, you're actually just solidifying. Because my mentor, shout out to you, Reverend Courtney Wright, you know, word of faith, I told her all the things I was doing. She says, Alan, all the things you're doing, if you're gonna make an impact, you need to go heavy on grief and helping people reframe it and deal with what you described was prolonged or complicated grief disorder. And basically what that means is that your grief is complicated. Grief is already hard. Exactly. But your pain turned into suffering. speaker-0: It's almost as like, you know, those people go through like mass shootings and stuff like that. whenever they talk about them in psychology, I f I feel a lot of that that they they had. Because I lost more family members since then. speaker-1: You're talking about just recently? speaker-0: Remember I told you my brother passed in last January. speaker-1: yeah, I do remember that. Yep. speaker-0: And then in COVID I lost two family members to COVID. speaker-1: So have you gone to a grief group, ma'am? speaker-0: You know what? I speaker-1: Shout out to Grief Share. I'm not I I do not have a contract with them with grief share. speaker-0: No no no, I'm okay. speaker-1: What w what's that mean? speaker-0: Good. the relationship I have with God now, I think only could have happened through what I have been through. and even this recent death, so losing my brother to mental health crisis. this was the first time that I experienced grief differently in a way that. Wasn't shocking to the system and shut me down. It was I could walk through it in a way that I understood who God was, but I also gave myself grace. I also could understand my grief. I also could reach out and talk. These are things I never did before. So in real time, it was happening. Yes, it's traumatic. Yes, it's a issue, but all the things I wasn't able to do before, I could do now because of the work God has done in me. And purely that was just. How my mom was saying, like I literally had a hardened heart. And I think and so when you were saying when could they intervene, I think with PKs, because we're so immersed in it, my issue isn't what God can't do or it my issue is I know who God is. Like I know him personally. So it's like if someone was coming to tell you about tell someone about you, like I already know him, right? my thing was I'm not gonna tell people I'm a Christian because I know I'm not living right. I don't wanna misrepresent him. I had a reverence for God, like that never left. ahead. speaker-1: Now what does that mean that live? speaker-0: I'll tell you. So some people are like, I'm a Christian, I'm a Christian, but they live sort of lukewarm or whatever. Like, I mean, there's no fruit, I guess, which is how I lived for a long time. but speaker-1: No fruit while you're prophesizing at the bar, but go ahead. speaker-0: Well as far as like consecration, but you know speaker-1: What you're talking about is the perfect Christian. Yeah. And none of us are sin free. speaker-0: But I also was actively running. I was Jonah. Actively. Like I knew what I was choosing not to I was consciously making this speaker-1: He's in the run though, didn't he? speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: He he didn't like the people that were killing. He didn't like them. speaker-0: Mom wasn't about the people though, Mom was about God. speaker-1: So when we look what I was trying to do is like humanize it. Right. speaker-0: I hear you. speaker-1: And so I think in the Christian community we're too hard on ourselves and saying I I'm not good enough to go to church. God and the judgment of the church. Yes. Right? Right. Are two separate things. Yeah. Right? And it's a great attack for the enemy. we edify the church instead of looking at the flaws of that particular church. Right? That's that's different. But we have to have grace, we're all sinners. Yeah. And so when we look at it, you you know your background. You just put it out there. Yeah. There was no, you did not have the luxury of other families stepping in and saying, We're going to surround you. Right. We are going to cover you. We're going to make you go to grief. We are going to bring you into church. Are we going to bring a scripture to you? Are we going to pray and fast? Right. And so we're going to help you to reframe your heart. It's not hardened. Mm-hmm. You know, you weren't Pharaoh, right? You are hurt. And speaker-0: A hundred percent. speaker-1: when we're hurt. one of the mechanisms we can do to protect ourselves is you can't hurt a feeling I no longer refuse to have. speaker-0: That's good. speaker-1: Right. Right. So these relationships happen a lot of time. If you just gonna go off, yeah. I don't care what you say. Yeah. Right? Like like if I go outside to the clan and they call me the N-word, that doesn't hurt my feelings. Right. I'm already hardened And so it is a defense mechanism. Yeah. Right. speaker-0: Yeah, so I disconnected completely 'cause it was just like, well I lose the people I love. speaker-1: Versus first of all that's true. First of all that's true. And we've been sitting at and mourn. See what I almost did was the z stop myself. speaker-0: I understand. speaker-1: So we have to sit in that. Like, you know, in in certain cultures they mourn six months a year, they wear black. Ruth, speaker-0: I was gonna say Naomi, how she was like, Don't even call me that, like call me Mara which means speaker-1: And then Naomi said, if you want boass, take off that grief. speaker-0: Yeah, you're right. Put some colorful put some perfume on. speaker-1: Let him know that you're out of grief because it's out of pocket for him to pursue you while you're still grieving. Yeah. So what that shows you is that there were periods of mourning. You did not have that. No. You went to class the next day, they call your name and roll, right? Like everything was okay and it was not. Your world was shattered. And on top of that, you had compound. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: So when you when you look at it, it was a a perfect storm. You know the speaker-0: Really was. speaker-1: And then opportunities. Yeah. 'Cause someone's being delivered right now. Right. And hearing this and saying, Hey, I'm going to to implement grief on campus. I'm going to reach out to Family. The church is going to expand its campus ministry. It has to. Should have been on campus. Yeah. You never know. speaker-0: Yeah, I didn't even meet I I mean, I would talk about him. And if you talked about God, I'm tussling with you. Right. Like I like I said, I had like a still a respect and reverence for him. But I opening my heart to be vulnerable to God, especially, was like, I can't let you see me like that again, almost. Like 'cause you hurt me. and that's kind of how I attacked relationships. Like that's pretty much how it was for me for a long time. And then right before COVID. well while working in COVID, I had a breakup, a horrible breakup, and then was working in COVID six days a week, seeing people pass like at an astronomical rate that we've never even seen. Like it was so bad that I had to take like six months off because I started to dehumanize people. It started to become a job. And I'm like, no, this isn't me. I love people. I love caring for people. but in that moment, that's when I had the Second breakdown. And that's when I was having suicidal ideations. And I was in my apartment and I was on my bathroom floor. And I was like, How am I gonna do it? That was the first time I ever got to that point. And I remember being like, I felt peace because I was like, well, it could be over. The pain I was feeling. Because this is not like one moment of pain. It was just open wounding, open wounding. I open up the wound, scab, open it up. And so this opened again. And I remember that. And I remember in that moment, like some my God, obviously, but I was just like, I know you're what I'm looking for. Like I said that to him while I was crying on the floor. And I said, and if you if you have a better plan than obviously I've been doing, then I'm willing to see that. Like I literally just had a prayer to him. I was like, I know you're what I'm looking for. I know because I keep getting up and I keep trying the same things and they're not working. And I know I'm actively running from you. So I've never fully said yes to you since then. And like speaker-1: I mean, so when you hear like you just you just and this is what we do, you're talking about these multiple traumas and just keep going right by it. Spiritual bypassing, right? And so when you look at it, that's too much pain. Yeah. And I'm sorry that you went through that. I know words can't really capture that experience, but speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I just didn't want you to say that and just keep going like I didn't hear it. Right? speaker-0: I understand. speaker-1: And so that pain compounded pain. Yeah. And we start looking at why suicide rates speaker-0: Our sky right. speaker-1: four times for men, because men don't talk. Well they have not been taught speaker-0: or have emotions, express emotions, like be have a safe space to do that. And you have w women or people or family that shut them down when they try to. And then obviously with my brother, like I'm just really passionate about that. Men's mental health especially. and like having a space for them to do that and not judging them or shaming them for it because I know what it l feels like for my myself personally. But you're right. speaker-1: The pain and and thank God you did, because when we don't cry out, first of all, God wants us to cry out. the ten leprous men had to cry out, the the the woman with the blood disorder had to had to cry out. Blind body makes us cry out, right? to be able to seek him. But from a psychological standpoint, which follows scripture, when you cry. out you were able to decrease your pain enough right under the threshold of suicide. Yeah. Because their studies, I know this is a weird study. Yeah. But it did studies of suicide survivors. Okay. That they failed. in in committing suicide. And what they found was that it was a moment. It wasn't that once they were stabilized that they wanted to go back In the harming themselves. It was a moment. It was a week. It was a day. It was 12 seconds. It was 30 seconds of I could just take away my pain. Yeah. Just for a second. Just get away and get a break. But if you're able to get someone to be able to talk, I'm sure we all have to work crisis hot level as far as training. You you work at Crisis High Level. Work. I'm speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: glad you let that go. when I start saying hi speaker-0: a high threshold for paying. speaker-1: What you have is resiliency, but and you've you are a sub speaker-0: On a lot of fronts. Yeah. speaker-1: Also a point where it's too much. And that is where a trauma background, our trauma background will prevent us from getting help. It's called allostatic load. Well, I'm built for this. It is what it is. It's like it's like police chief, it's just another day. But our body, our minds are capturing this, are loading this. So it wasn't the fact that you had an anxiety disorder. It was the fact that you had gone through trauma, you had gone through loss, and then there were not the right supports to allow you to be able to give words. speaker-0: Yeah, I didn't have any language. I'm just now getting language at thirty five for a lot of the things I was feeling. Thank you. Thank you. speaker-1: Proud of you proud of you for for not only leading, yeah, you know, putting us out there, leading, yeah, and hold having people hold space, right? And also giving Christians permission to be vulnerable as if that's how God operated. Yeah. As if that's how He's telling us it is okay to mourn. Yeah. cute tie tribute, you know, weeping may endure overnight. But we can only we only we can only mourn for what? One night though. That's all but a night is a season. speaker-0: Yeah, especially in bobble time. speaker-1: You say joy comes in the morning, a lot of times we think, Okay, I'm gonna cry about this, I'm gonna be okay. Yeah, be stoic. Right. But that's how we break down. Yeah. Because our emotions are saying, nah, I can't get over grandma in one day. I can't get over. speaker-0: I mean it's still I think it's still a process though. I'm still learning. but I even told God I'm like, if I obviously you have a big purpose for me. I get it. But I'm very myself, which is why I think women were drawn to my podcast, 'cause I call the church out and I call us out. I'm very I very much was coming from I was just the club yesterday. So like I'm coming back to you, but like I'm me. And when I talk about my journey with you, I want it to be real. I don't want anyone to go back and be like, well, she was doing You don't gotta tell them. They know because I tell them exactly where I came from because that's what kept a lot of us out. It's like, hey, I'm coming back to God. I'm with him. I'm walking with him. He knows my heart, I I can't veer off too far because I need to be with him. He is my peace. He is my joy. He's how I can even encourage myself or walk in encouraging the other girls. So I told him very early, like, I'm me. And like I'm not trying to be anything else. I need to do this real and that's what brings people to him. If they know God is not scared of their pain like mine, then they know they can go to him. speaker-1: we try to make being Christian perfect. Exactly. And God gives us grace. He asked us to speaker-0: Otherwise I can't do I'm Peter all day. I'm chopping off ears. speaker-1: That's where the church has a disadvantage compared to the secular world. The secular world will I messed up. I'm not perfect. All right, but the church world will say, because you're not perfect, you're disqualified, but that's not in scripture. God is saying I sent my son to die for the forgiveness of your sins and I will give you grace. I'm in ministry of the how many people have bachelor and bachelorette parties? I know it's not in the Bible, and and we marry them the next day. Let's go. Okay, so before you start eliminating God knows you're in the club. I'm not endorsing the club. I'm not not endorsing. But but there are people who are knee deeper in the church and then people go to club every day. Yeah. The moral fiber of the person in the club every day is higher. Right. Remember Samaritan. The good Samaritan was passed by priests. the priest passed them by. So when we when we look at it, it is g it is releasing this idea that we have to be perfect. Only has to be perfect is a lamb in the old testament for a sacrifice. Yeah. Had to be unblemished. What we have to do is call Jesus Lord and atone for our sins. Yeah. All right. And allow him to give us grace. Yeah. Him to deal with us and then move forward. It does not eliminate us from being Proverb thirty one. speaker-0: No, I I I think that I am. I I have gone through a full transformation as a person. especially just like healing and the the heart wounding and all of that. And the biggest revelation of it all is just knowing that God wasn't afraid of all that I came with. Cause it's like, you want all this mess to in exchange for just me? Like just want me. And it was that love that that healed me in many different areas. and allowed me to face myself because it's like I was afraid of me too, because it's like the shame from like, I know I'm not supposed to live this way, but I'm just gonna do it anyway. And then once you try to come back to him, you're like, Why did I do all that? Like I could have just been on the straight and narrow or whatever. And it's just like, like you said, giving myself grace for I have gone through a lot. It almost normalizes pain and trauma. So speaker-1: No I know I just want to this. And it's not something that we like. When we are anointed, we forget that the devil comes to kill still. speaker-0: And destroy. speaker-1: And the devil is crafty. He will get you when you're most vulnerable. Right? So his attack was temporarily effective because he got you early. He knew exactly how to distort your mind. You know, instead of having anger towards cancer, anger towards the mortality of life, that people are with you with a season, he was able to distort that, right? By isolating anesthesizing and it actually feeling good. Yes. Right. in the short term, he was able to position you in way away from God around the community that could have healed you. Yeah. Right. And so anyone that has a calling on their life, we don't like it. speaker-0: But our warfare is to listen. speaker-1: In a church we say, higher levels When you have a calling on your life, that is when things will come against you. And come against you. So anyone listen, watching this, is that the the reframe is it wasn't that you strayed from God. It was that there was an open window for the devil to be able to come in, right? And be able to change the way, be renewed by the transforming of your mind. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Do as good as acceptable. Right? So because the transformation, right, what was towards church hurt. Yes. Right, why not turn turn away from the yeah what what hurt you? But what if like Esther speaker-0: Well now I'm pulling more women out of it. Yeah. I know I have to go through. I can relate to both sides now. speaker-1: It was never I was this terrible sinner. Yes. It was I was young. compound. Yeah. Any one of those would affect anyone. Just one of the traumas that you mentioned. And those happen in compound is saying that you were marked. Now we can get into it later. So I'm not like, wow, why why do I let all this stuff happen? Right? speaker-0: I it all built me and sustained me to this place where I can speaker-1: It is okay. Yeah. speaker-0: a hundred percent. Like I said, I I for the first time when my brother passed, I was able to sit in two places at once. Places of victory, but also places of grief and mourning and grace for myself. But then HPC came and now that I'm able to sit with women in this way that I know that I needed then, and we're in the top three percent globally because I was able to be vulnerable and open about where I was with God at the time. And how I've been walking with him ever since. And just very open about how I just told you my story of he gave me the world back to live and now I live for him. So we made it. speaker-1: Appreciate you sharing that. speaker-0: Of course. I know you didn't know the extent, but speaker-1: No, I mean that's about forty percent. speaker-0: I s well I mean there's still other stuff, but you know, at least now you understand why I'm so passionate about especially black men's mental health and our culture in general as far as how faith tries to shift it. But speaker-1: And I appreciate what you do in the fitness space. You had an impact on me, right? Because after we spoke, you know I started doing speaker-0: No, I'm so proud of you. You even I know you're like, you're in the gym. I'm like, yes. But I have to I have to have routine, especially with my anxiety, because I don't take anything for it now. It's the peace of God, purpose, and my routine and eating right and all of that. So the resilience built in me got me to this place where I can now just I don't know, I'm free. speaker-1: we need it. I mean it's faith and work. speaker-0: And what you do is amazing too. Tell tell the people how to find you. speaker-1: Okay, yeah. So you go I have a community that's launching. It's called the Transforming Circle. It is mental health development in community for believers. I believe that believers should be the best when it comes to relationships, the best when it comes to personal development. So check out Transforming Circle. Also visit my website, Dr Tart dot com. I'm doing a segment right now called Transform Man. Right. You don't know about that? Transform Man is happening, you know. Come on. Real time to give men the tools to be able to manage and master stress. Yes. this is what the church is screaming for. Help me. I have the word. Give me the tools to be able to walk this so check on my YouTube. you're gonna have some of the best relationship advice. I've been doing this for like 30 years so I'm able to be able to see what works and what doesn't work in modern times. So go to my YouTube and also my Instagram at Dr. Tart. at D-R-T-A-R-T-T. But go to my YouTube, you're gonna love it. God is giving you some things. Anyway, so I'm excited about speaker-0: You need to sit in one of my Bible studies. I'm with it. It's really gangster though. You're gonna see. You have to just I literally be preaching. And speaker-1: Gang define gangster in that I've seen you, you know, go and I've seen you go to the speaker-0: I'm trying I told him not to make me a pastor, but I can't escape it. So I always tell the girls, I'm like, y'all know I don't like when this come out, but here we go. our Bible study is called Wellness Through the Word, 'cause I want women to know how to live through the day, daily, practically. Like you said, be still, how do I do that? So we do that every Thursday. follow your girl, Mikel dot renee, and the website is mikelrene dot com. Thank you for doing this. Thank you. And thanks for listening to my story and trauma. It is I appreciate you. All speaker-1: Anytime. speaker-0: right, y'all will see you the next episode.