Latest / The STA Clinician Podcast / Ep236 'Working With West End Pro Dancers' - Reflection with Shannon Byrne

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Ep236 'Working With West End Pro Dancers' - Reflection with Shannon Byrne · The STA Clinician Podcast

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Music.
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Episode 236 of the Sports Therapy Association podcast.
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My name is Matt Phillips, creative one-shot live.com. And as always,
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this episode is being recorded live at eight o'clock Tuesday on the Sports Therapy
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Association YouTube channel.
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So as I announced last week, with 234 episodes of the Sports Therapy Association podcast now recorded.
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Uploaded and out there free for your education and professional development,
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we've decided it's time to take a pause from incredibly important information and new weekly guests.
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Instead, we're going to start a series of shorter, but I think even more important,
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weekly reflection episodes in which I'm inviting you.
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The soft tissue therapist, the listener, to pick one past episode that particularly
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affected your daily practice and then come on the show with me,
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very chilled out, and talk to me about it.
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Simple as that. They're going to be shorter episodes, 30 to 40 minutes long,
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so you could fit them into your commute to work, whatever it is.
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And it's going to be such an important, it's going so well so far.
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The feedback's been wonderful.
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It really is a chance to reflect back on the amazing information we've got in
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terms of free CPD, rather than just pouring out more and more and more and more stuff.
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So, so far, so good. It's going very well. In fact, last week,
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I think Nikki Mansfield is even in the house here as we speak.
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So last week in episode 235, Nikki Mansfield of MMM Therapy joined me on the
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show to reflect on past episode 137,
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Healthcare for People with Learning Disabilities, recorded back in February
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2023, that one was, with Alistair Beverley, the LD Physio.
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Amazing episode. My thanks again to Nikki for setting the benchmark very high.
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It was amazing, such preparation.
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Not any pressure for you, Shannon, now waiting patiently down in the lounge
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at the bottom. But yeah, it was great. Thank you, Nikki.
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And it's available as always on YouTube. If you want to see the visual,
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or you can listen to it on Spotify, on Apple podcasts, on any of your favorite.
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Podcast apps. Right then, so tonight in the second of this reflection series,
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I'm going to be joined by sports therapist Sharon Byrne of Rebound Injury Clinic
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in Dublin, who's going to be reflecting on episode 60.
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Working with West End Pro Dancers, which was recorded back in July 2021 with
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special guest Liz Bailey. It was an amazing time.
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Listening back to it again, it was all obviously COVID time and everything coming
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out of COVID and having to go back into COVID.
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And it was a real dance down a not so wonderful memory lane,
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but also the information that was, it was incredible and it affected Shannon
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in a particularly interesting and dramatic way.
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So without further ado, if you have joined us live, thank you very much.
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Do feel free to ask questions to Shannon and share your own experiences if you
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remember the episode or any information Shannon talks about.
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And if you listen to the podcast, then I hope you enjoy it. And likewise,
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if you've got any questions and feel free to contact us probably go to youtube
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and leave the comments there is one of the best places,
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right without further ado let's do it then reflecting on episode 60 working
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with rest end pro dancers with our clinician reflecting tonight shannon burn
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of rebound injury clinic.
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Music.
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How you doing all good all good i
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hope everyone is doing well i'm fine i'm great i'm so happy to see you again
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i mean i was just listening to the sports therapy podcast i was putting evidence
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back into soft tissue therapy you know this gang and i was irish and lived in
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dublin whatever then then And I'd probably be you because I see,
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I've seen your passion and your question asking and everything at Therapy Expo.
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I think you're quite famous amongst the speakers. I don't know if you know how
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famous you are. Oh, wow. That's a great question to answer. No,
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it's true. And you're an amazing clinician.
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So it's really nice. You've been on the show before and I'm absolutely thrilled
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that you're coming in to have a little bit of a reflection tonight.
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And you'll be pleased to know that I've just seen coming through the door, drum roll,
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Liz Bailey is here herself to listen to you reflecting on Liz. They either do I.
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Great to have you here. Thanks so much, Liz. I think Alistair last week popped
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into the door, set the scene now.
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I think all of the people, once they find out, they're going to have to come
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in and say that. The pressure is on for everyone else now to step off to the mark.
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I know. Amazing. Thanks for joining us, Liz. It's been such a joy listening back to that episode.
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And we've talked briefly about it as well. So I'm really interested to hear
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about how that affected you.
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Before we do that, I love this. Nikki Mansfield is already setting the pressure.
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Nikki Mansfield says the only
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pressure on Shannon is that Liz is in the house. Yeah, we spotted that.
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Anyway, it's no pressure at all because we're all professionals.
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So first, Shannon, for people who don't know about you, could you give us a
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little summary of where you are in the world and what you do for a living?
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Absolutely. So my name is Shannon Byrne. I own Rebound Injury Clinic,
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which is a sports therapy clinic located here in Dublin and Ireland.
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And it's been up and running for the last four years now, I want to say.
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We're coming up on four years and about a year and a half ago then we opened
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our own facility first that we were renting in someone else's facility so we
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now have a gym setting and two treatment rooms and we now have our own team
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that's expanded over the last kind of year and a half which is incredible.
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I myself have a bachelor's in sports therapy and my original plan was to go
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on and do the master's in physiotherapy but COVID happened everything went a
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bit up in the air and I opened rebound and I haven't had a minute since thankfully,
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So in one way, it's a blessing, I suppose, because if I had gone on to do the
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Masters, I probably would have been in a very different position.
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And so I'm grateful to be in the position I am and work in private practice.
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And it always works out in the end, I suppose.
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So yeah, that's where I'm at at the minute.
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Fantastic. Very exciting. It's interesting because there's parallels where if
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people listen back to this episode, then Liz herself had been through sports therapy.
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She decided to do physiotherapy. And then I think when she joined us in the
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episode, she'd just come out of her FCP role and decided she'd been able to
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actually start working with theatre.
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So there's interesting parallels there with sports therapists feeling that they
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want to do physiotherapy and stuff like that.
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So what made you actually want to choose, obviously because of Liz,
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I mean, that's the answer.
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Yeah, of course. Apart from it being Liz Bailey with a B-A-Y,
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L-E-Y, just for everyone who's listening, what made you particularly want to
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choose this episode 60, working with West End Pro Dancers?
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Yeah, so when you had reached out, I was like, oh, absolutely,
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I'll reflect on anything.
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It's one of my favourite things to do. but when I was thinking of
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one that particularly had an impact on my personal kind
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of clinical experience and one that I drew a lot
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from I remembered listening to this one because this was one of the first ones
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I listened to from the STA podcast and I had mentioned that to you when we were
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chatting briefly and I had been to the STA here in Therapy Expo back in 2021
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and Liz had spoken about the foot and ankle and she had spoken about the dancer's
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foot and all of that sort of stuff.
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And I had a chat with her there, had a chat with you, had a great time.
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And then fast forward a couple of months later in Martha was in a car accident.
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And I was out of work for about seven months. I'd have a couple of procedures on my back.
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I'd prolonged period of time that I needed kind of crutches or I needed some
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sort of mobility aids to be able to get around.
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And I was unsure if I was going to actually get back into the setting that I
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wanted to get back into being private practice.
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And I was kind of scrolling through, I assume it was Instagram at the time, the STA popped up.
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I'd seen Liz's name and I was like, you know what? I really loved her talk at
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the STA Theater in Therapy Expo.
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I've nothing else to do I'm gonna sit down and listen to this and maybe that'll
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kind of just give me a little bit of hope towards getting back into private
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practice and into clinical experience and working with the populations I love
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working with and I sat down to listen to it and it was amazing to look at.
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The kind of areas that I wanted to
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be working in but I wasn't working in at that time I was
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just taking anybody that would come through the door and to be fair the clinic kind of
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still does that now anybody that's injured or has an MSK injury
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we take them in but speaking to any
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of the dancers in Ireland they would probably particularly
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young competitive dancers across a
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couple of different genres more so than the professional dancers a
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lot of them do want somebody who was a dancer and understands the terminology
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and understands the importance of getting back to their competitions and shows
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and that sort of stuff and I've coincidentally kind of become that person for
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a lot of people and it nearly feels a little bit like oh god I can't believe
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you said that but But I remember writing out some of my goals and stuff and I was like,
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I want to be the go-to therapist in my area for dancers and have this safe space
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for them to come and air out any of their concerns and be able to get back into their sports safely.
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And it's funny listening back to this then because there was a parallel in that
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at the time that I was unable to really work at all. And Liz mentioned having
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the common ground with dancers.
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And I just remember thinking, God, I could have this common ground with people
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with lower back pathologies and that sort of stuff and all the stuff that I
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was going through as well.
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So it actually opened up kind of a slightly different avenue as well, which was amazing.
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Yeah it's it's it was it was amazing timing
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but it's unfortunate sense because so you were involved in
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a car accident and did you know that were you dancing until
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that point or had you stopped dancing already what were your plans before that
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accident just prior to that so i wouldn't like
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i say i started dancing when i was three which was the same
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as liz but i didn't end up on the moulin rouge as much
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as i'd have loved it i did i mean we all started
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at three i was at moulin rouge for yeah yeah just before i've
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done it in i've done it in the kitchen plenty of times you know
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what i mean but me and my twin sister
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did a lot of kind of stage skill growing up we did freestyle
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dancing we did a little bit of ballet we did a lot of
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hip-hop and that sort of stuff so from the age of three up until
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about 19 i would have trained probably 20 25
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hours a week across different genres of dance and i probably would have had a
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competition every weekend or every second weekend we traveled
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all over ireland and the uk we went to competitions in norway and
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spain we were all over the place competing in different styles of
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dancing and when I got to 19 I kind of had to sit down
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and go god you're you're doing this degree you've got to do
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all this work experience it's evenings it's weekends you need
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to do the sensible thing and it was funny when I was listening back to the
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to Liz's episode during the week she was like oh I was awfully sensible
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and that like I was the sensible one of like right look you're
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not going down the route professional I knew I wasn't going to go down that route so I
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was like where I do the sensible thing and try and get into that
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niche area of working with dancers and that
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was my sensible idea was to go and do that but it was funny because
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I had a guidance counsellor in skill that said you know you won't be able to.
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Be a physio you're not going to get the requirements in your exams and blah.
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Blah so I found that kind of back door route and ended up in sports therapy
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and I'm glad I did because I think it's actually where I probably belong a little
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bit more so than in a hospital setting in in physiotherapy and that sort of
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stuff I definitely feel like I belong in private practice.
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It's so nice isn't it when you can actually say, kind of glad that happened,
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even at the time, it's something terrible.
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And I think that's a sign of success and fortune in life when you can look back
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and go, you know what, I'm happy that happened because I'm happy who I am now.
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So it's really encouraging to hear that.
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Yeah, so,
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In the episode, Liz covers quite a lot of stuff. So I thought we'd pick out a few things.
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In fact, before I pick up some things that I picked up on, was there anything
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in particularly in that particular episode which Liz talked about,
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which either you were doing or you're doing now, which kind of had an effect
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on your clinical practice?
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Yeah, absolutely. I remember Liz kind of briefly mentioning that dancers were
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performing athletes and a lot of the time they don't put themselves in the category
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as actually being an athlete.
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They just kind of end up being a performing artist or they're
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an artist first and then an athlete second or whatever it might be and
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then she was talking about their fitness levels most dancers actually
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aren't that fit they're probably fit for you know three
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minutes of a number or whatever it might be and then they're
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absolutely dead after that and I remember
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looking back at it and going god I wonder what I
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would have been like as a dancer had I been exposed to
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strength conditioning training and more cardiovascular training and lucky
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for me for me my twin sister was still competitively dancing so
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I had started kind of programming stuff for her and it led to a massive decrease
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in the amount of injuries that she was getting thankfully she still has the
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odd few she danced on a broken foot for about four weeks five weeks last year
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just to see out the end of the competition season which is absolutely crazy
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to me that she was able to even stand up let alone dance.
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But I was able to implement a lot of the things that I wish I had had as a dancer
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through my sister and what we've seen very very quickly was there was so many people,
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commenting back to us of god she's jumping higher or you know
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she looks sharper with her movements and everything is moving a little bit more
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fluidly she just looks stronger even in like her her outfits that she was wearing
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she had a little bit more muscle definition so it was all like really really
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positive feedback her coaches were saying god she's looking great the fitness
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levels were improving and she was looking much much stronger than some of her
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competitors which was incredible to see in my opinion i'm sure some people probably go god no she's,
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But in my humble opinion, my sister is incredible. And I remember kind of saying,
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God, what could we do then to try and open this up to other people?
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So when we opened the gym, going back a year and a half ago,
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it was funny because my sister had said to me, oh, everything's closed over
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the Christmas. There's no training.
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Can I go up to the gym and do a session on St. Stephen's Day,
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which is Boxing Day for anyone in the UK?
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And I was like, yeah, sure, we'll go up. And when I arrived here,
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she had texted a load of her pals from Vansom.
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And we ended up with like three groups of 12 young dancers up to do a strength
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and conditioning session on Boxing
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Day that was like a spur of the moment thing I was like god not only do.
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The older dancers want to do it to prevent injury but
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the younger dancers from the age of like seven and
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eight wanted to be in the gym to get stronger and
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I think when you look at the gymnastics and Simone Boyles and all that
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sort of stuff there are a lot more kind of positive
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imagery for young girls particularly to
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look strong and feel strong in their sports where it was going back
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to years ago when I was dancing it probably wasn't that same
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imagery that was out there so we started doing the
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strength and conditioning classes in the gym for young athletes and
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now we do an online program as well for the same reason and
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we do with limited equipment and we make sure it's accessible to everybody we
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do it on zoom we record it so people can watch back the
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recordings and all of that sort of stuff but Liz talking
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about the lack of strength and condition and the lack of kind of injury prevention
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everything is reactive everything in the
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dance world is react reactive you get an injury and then
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you're sent to a physio a sports therapist or whatever it might be
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when in reality we should already be there in
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a screening process and a lot of the dancers that I work with amateur dancers
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that are in a competitive setting that are probably minors and then the other
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side of it are dancers that are training in dance colleges and we have implemented
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that kind of screening protocol that Liz would have been talking about that
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she does with the West End Pro Dancers that we can screen them prior to them starting in college.
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And they've got a couple of weeks then to build up a little bit of strength
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to try and prevent injuries because they do get, a lot of dancers will get tendinopathy,
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overuse type injuries, particularly from.
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The amount of training that they do and like Liz was saying
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in the West End they go into a show you're straight
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into rehearsals it's go go go they might
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have props they might have awkward costumes all of
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this sort of stuff and injuries happen very very quickly and then us as the
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therapist then has to respond very quickly to something that might take a little
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bit longer to actually heal and recover so the prevention is absolutely better
15:26
than the cure and I think that's the kind of mindset that I've taken with a
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lot of our younger dancers if we can get them in,
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early on and build their strength and teach them techniques and certain things.
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I mentioned to you earlier on, and you probably hadn't a clue what I was talking
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about, but like a lot of the dancers that I say, okay, do a squat.
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They automatically go into a plie and the feet are turned out,
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the hips are turned out, all that sort of stuff. You knew that one.
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I've done ballet. People laugh at me, but yeah. Good job.
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But it's trying to then, you know, build strength and build strength within
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the range of motion to try and decrease all those risks of injuries.
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And Liz really hit the nail on the head in that episode talking.
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About the pro dancers and whatever we do with the pros we can filter
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down into the amateurs because they're going to be the ones that end up
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becoming the pros down the line so the earlier we start the better it is
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and I'd mentioned to you as well like with the screening if you
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look at any of our premier league football teams or anything like that they
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have to pass a medical assessment to get in onto those teams we don't
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do the same type of thing sometimes when we're in dance settings
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and when Liz was talking about that screening process it should
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be something across the board if you're joining a professional
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dance company and I know the ballet do it but no one else seems to
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it seems to do it and with the dance college I work with here
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in Ireland it was actually a guy that was teaching
16:36
in UK dance colleges for quite some time and he came back and
16:38
opened his own college there last year and he's trying to
16:41
adapt some of the stuff that the UK are doing and bringing it back to
16:44
Ireland because we would probably be slightly behind
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what the UK is doing in a lot of senses this
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is one of the things that he brought back and even the parents that are enrolling their
16:53
young kids that are 17 or 18 into these programs they're saying
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god isn't this incredible that we can link up with someone that
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has the knowledge for injuries and screening and
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is it safe for my kid to be doing all of this training
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all of the time and we had talks about nutrition and
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fueling and all of that sort of stuff and it's all really really positive
17:11
stuff but again it's if it's not a high level professional set it's not really
17:16
seen anywhere else so it's trying to filter that into the amateur level and
17:20
the training level so that they get used to that by the time they get to professional
17:22
level and it's not something they need to worry about because it's part of their
17:25
daily routine, their lifestyle, that sort of stuff.
17:29
It's um it's so interesting listening to you
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like as it was listening to liz about your your
17:35
knowledge of what it's like you know working in these
17:38
environments and how you can get injuries from i think liz was
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saying because she was working on the lion king at the time i don't think she
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was able to say that during the episode but we can say that now can't release
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can't release do i have to edit this yeah and she'd worked on andrew lloyd webber's
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cinderella and stuff and it was a case of people always expect the injuries
17:52
to be traumatic but a lot of the time it's like because you're wearing a stupidly
17:56
big animal head and see your neck is, you know, and the props,
17:59
like you mentioned in that.
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So strengthening is such an important part. Or like even things like the Moulin
18:03
Rouge and that can-can type dance and the constant kicking, like with the type
18:07
dancing that my sister does, the freestyle, it is. It's a lot of kicking, a lot of jumping.
18:12
So things like stress fractures and proximal hamstring tendinopities and all
18:16
that sort of stuff are really, really prevalent.
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And it's not a case of somebody pushed me and I fell or I tripped and I fell.
18:21
It's always the chronic overused stuff and they can be prevented.
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But we need a time frame to be able to prevent them. And like Liz was saying,
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if someone's coming in and they're starting a show tomorrow,
18:32
you don't have enough time to bring them through a prevention type program.
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But if they're doing these types of things from when they're eight or nine and
18:39
they once a week do a bit of strength training and it's part of their lifestyle.
18:42
Hopefully we'll start to see that they're getting less injured as they get a
18:47
little bit older because they have the strength and they have the ability to
18:50
be able to do everything they need to do within their sport.
18:52
Like we wouldn't let a football player after an ACL injury go
18:55
back out onto the pitch without passing all of our criteria we don't
18:58
normally have those criterias we kind of have to create those criterias for
19:02
dancers whereas everything is pretty much set in stone when it comes to our
19:06
football players but it's the same with any of our niche sports that we would
19:09
have you know and we don't have the exact guidelines we have to nearly kind
19:13
of expose them to whatever it is they're going to do and we do it all the time
19:18
with any sport but I think with dancers in particular.
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If they're going to a therapist that doesn't understand dance
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or hasn't been exposed to it or hasn't gone to shows like I know Liz
19:26
was talking about Bill Taylor and he engrossed himself in it then
19:30
you're qualified to work with the sport but when you're
19:33
not engrossed in it you've no idea what they're doing like I've seen
19:35
so many dancers with hamstring strains from not
19:38
warming up correctly and then kicking the legs all over the place and they've
19:42
gone to somebody else for an opinion they get
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diagnosed and they get a couple of of glute
19:48
bridges maybe you know a handful of hamstring exercises
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but they don't build strength at their end range of motion
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so as soon as they kick again they re-injure you know and it's something so
19:57
simple for a dancer to identify that but if you're not a dancer and like I remember
20:01
saying it to one of the kid's parents like sure how is that exercise gonna help
20:04
her when her leg is coming up to here you know and her mom was like god yeah
20:07
that's a really good point but you sure you don't you don't know what you're
20:10
supposed to be doing you don't
20:11
what your kid is supposed to be doing if you don't have that qualification.
20:15
So for listeners, for listeners who are listening to this and they're either
20:19
working with dancers or would like to get involved a bit more with dancers because
20:22
there's a demand out there, is there,
20:25
Is this still a case where a lot of dancers are immersed in this kind of culture
20:29
of we're kind of, we're not athletes, we're part of art, darling?
20:32
Is there kind of a still a little bit of that?
20:34
And part of the therapist role is to say, mate, madam, whatever you want to
20:37
call them, you're actually a performing athlete and you need to act like a performing athlete.
20:42
Is that still something today happening? I think there is still a little bit of that.
20:45
And like, I suppose we are moving out of it a little bit more.
20:48
And I think the Olympics this year is when I start seeing some of the younger
20:51
kids that were in around 13 or 14 and they're exposed to social media.
20:55
And I had one kid in particular that said, Shannon, how do I make my legs as
20:58
big as Simone Boyle so I can jump that high?
21:00
And it was the first time I heard a really young kid say to me,
21:02
I know that having big legs like that means I have strength and that will support
21:08
my body when I'm doing these really kind of intricate movements and really high
21:12
jumps with twists and all that sort of stuff in it.
21:14
And I just kind of had to take a step back and go, God, isn't that incredible?
21:17
And then we had to sit down and have the conversation about nutrition and fueling
21:20
and all that sort of stuff to make sure that she wasn't overtraining because
21:23
that's the other side of it.
21:24
Like particularly with the amateur sports and some of
21:27
these kids do crazy mess training you know but I do
21:30
think we're definitely shifting more towards the performing
21:33
athlete but I do think still particularly with the
21:35
amateur level it's like oh sure they're they just go to dancing you know I remember
21:39
being in school and we'd have boys in school that say oh sure you don't even
21:43
play any sports or you know whatever and then it'd come to to do an 100 meter
21:47
sprint and like I'd kill anybody at 100 meter sprint at that stage because I
21:51
was so good at the short bursts and the explosiveness.
21:54
But there had no endurance whatsoever. Like I wasn't fit when I think of it
21:58
now. Do you know what I mean?
21:59
So I definitely think there is a little bit of a shift and I think there's some
22:03
stuff on social media that's allowing for that positive shift.
22:06
And there's a lot of athletes and not just in dancers, but when we look at like
22:09
gymnastics and that sort of stuff as well, and we link all of those in,
22:12
it is creating that kind of positive mindset because we don't see an awful lot
22:16
on social media about, say, your classical dancers and your ballet dancers and that sort of stuff.
22:20
We're not seeing an awful lot of that on social media. Well, I'm not.
22:23
But we are seeing more on TikTok of the performers that are in musical theatre
22:27
and they're backstage and they're having the crack and all that sort of stuff.
22:29
And TikTok is exposing us to people's daily lives.
22:32
But I think from seeing that sort of stuff and seeing the behind the scenes,
22:36
it's kind of encouraging young dancers to realise, well, actually,
22:40
this is a full-time job for people when they move on.
22:43
And this is a full-time role and it's a lot of work and we have to be seen and
22:47
we have to be treated as athletes.
22:48
And I think the shift is happening on the dancer side, but I don't think it's
22:52
happening in the general population.
22:54
So what I kind of see is that the parents don't really believe that the kids
22:58
are athletes unless they're at a really high level of competition.
23:01
And then you see like, say, even school teachers and PE teachers and that sort
23:05
of, God, they're dancers, you know, or whatever it might be.
23:09
But the dancers themselves are starting to put themselves into that category
23:12
a little bit younger, which is really, really nice to see because they are going
23:15
to become the professional dancers that are on the West End and in all of those
23:18
musical theatre shows down the line.
23:20
So it's nice to see that shift happening in some of them really young,
23:23
but there still is a lot of the kind of negative connotations in dance,
23:27
particularly in freestyle that I've seen like I can't eat before
23:30
I perform I'll get sick you know and you're trying
23:32
to break down these barriers and kind of go all right okay well you're nervous
23:35
it's normal to be nervous but you need to feel your body and here's
23:39
what you need to be eaten and how you can feel your body healthy yeah
23:42
if you have a McDonald's you're probably going to get sick but if you can you know give
23:45
yourself some time beforehand and I was like nobody ever sat me down
23:47
and said anything like that invited me for the full day of the competition someone
23:51
would probably go oh god but she gets real nervous do you know what I mean and
23:54
it's not really an excuse so it's definitely something that when you when you
23:58
look at it more holistically and you look at the strength and conditioning approach
24:01
and you to bring in the nutrition you bring in everything else you get that
24:04
at the professional level a lot of the time but filtering it into amateur sports.
24:09
Is definitely where it's going to build a kind of foundation start building
24:12
the bricks up because in Ireland if we look at like the GAA or the football
24:15
or anything like that we've got kids football teams that are under 14 or under
24:19
15 that have a physio standing on the side of their pitch on a Saturday morning,
24:23
But we've got dancers in a hall. We've probably got 800 or 900 dancers in a
24:26
sports hall at a dance competition.
24:27
And we've got one guy from St. John's Ambulance doing first aid.
24:31
And all he's doing is an ice pack, maybe a compression bandage.
24:34
And you're kind of going, well, where is the... There's no level playing field
24:38
there in terms of who the athlete is.
24:40
We're treating the under 14 football players like professional athletes.
24:44
And then we have kids that are training like professional athletes that are
24:47
probably doing over the 20 hours a week of training.
24:50
And they've got somebody with a compression bandage on an ice pack when they
24:52
get injured and then they don't know whether they're able to train or not so
24:55
if I'm at a dance competition with my sister I normally get called over I've
24:58
been called Nicole's mom multiple times and we're twins so that's really offensive
25:01
but people just assume that because Nicole dances and because I'm a sports therapist
25:06
and I'm professional that I must be her mother
25:08
but a lot of times I'll get called over and I'll be told oh first
25:11
day I told her that she can't dance can you have a look and you have a look
25:15
and you go okay right well can you do this can you hop can you do that you know
25:18
go through a couple of things okay right well you can't do x y or z but you
25:21
can do all of this so take take the kicks out of the routine or take you know
25:24
whatever single aid stuff and we'll adapt the choreography and we'll change
25:27
it and they can go back on and Liz said
25:28
something similar about one of the principal roles in one of the shows.
25:32
That if there's not a swing to go on and it isn't we can change choreography to still make it work.
25:37
And the thing with the amateur sports the ones that I'm working with a lot there's
25:40
a lot of soloists so there's no one to go on in your space so
25:44
you've got to adapt and kind of overcome and work with
25:46
what you've got on the day and obviously if they can't take two
25:50
or three steps or you know if you're going through your auto ankle rolls you
25:52
think that there's a fracture there you think it is more of kind of an acute injury or
25:55
something more traumatic yeah no they're probably not going to
25:58
dance but in a lot of the cases the kids
26:01
want to dance that's what they're there for you know so it's trying to
26:04
allow them to safely adapt and change
26:07
the choreography so that they can dance and I think that's something
26:10
then that having the experience as a dancer allows you
26:13
to do whereas if you didn't have that experience you don't get
26:17
the ability to then be able to do that and it's not really something you can
26:19
learn unless you've been in that kind of sport i'm
26:22
like that for me there's certain styles of dancing i'd be really good at doing that with
26:25
but if you put an irish dancer in front of me i'd probably be looking at
26:27
the dance teacher going is there something she can do instead of that
26:30
bit you know and in irish dancing they've got set dances they
26:33
have to do this specific routine and everyone gets marked against each other
26:36
so sometimes it's not possible to do that so it's trying to
26:39
think on your feet with some of those yeah it's this
26:42
it's i'm imagining the listener listening to
26:45
this who maybe wants to work with dancers and is
26:48
a bit tentative and it's it's interesting because both yourself and
26:51
liz have cleared up some of the misconceptions so
26:54
for one for example and this idea that it
26:57
does help obviously and liz said this well in in her episode back in 2021 if
27:02
you are a dancer it's a shortcut to to that therapeutic alliance with the dancer.
27:07
Because they know you've been there and also you're going to be able to talk
27:10
their language much easier and like you say you're going to have an idea of
27:13
how to tweak things and change choreography.
27:14
But it was nice that Liz pointed out and you've mentioned as well that if you
27:17
are someone like Bill Taylor who,
27:20
was actually on the show before talking about male pelvic health amazing guy
27:22
and his works with scottish ballet he's like
27:25
the head physio what's his official title with scottish ballet can't remember
27:28
now but amazing person who everybody goes
27:31
to i think he's still with scottish ballet yeah consultant physio
27:34
but he he didn't know about he's not
27:37
a natural dancer he probably has a i can imagine having a little jig by himself
27:40
in his bedroom but that's my own personal thoughts but
27:43
yeah he did he got a book and he devoured it and he learned it all so he
27:46
could understand so it is possible absolutely i
27:49
i lecture in a college in dublin and their
27:52
bachelors of science and sports therapy and i
27:55
try and encourage as many of the students as possible when they're doing their placements
27:58
to go and work with dancers and see dancers because
28:01
like liz says you asked her i think about the top three injuries
28:04
and she was like a lot of ankles and a lot of knees and a
28:07
lot of hips and a lot of shoulders and you
28:10
know and there was there was everything but that is that is really the
28:13
case so i kind of link up some of the students with
28:16
the dance college that i work with so that they can see dancers in
28:19
training and what they go through as well as what injuries they get a lot of
28:23
the times they learn an awful lot more in that short period of time because
28:26
they've got so many dancers so many different injuries so much going on and
28:30
they're practically getting a show half the time because they're watching them
28:32
dancing going oh my god isn't this incredible so it's definitely something that
28:35
you can expose yourself to and like I said there's not.
28:38
I'm not an expert in every style of dance but that's when you then go to the
28:42
coach or the choreographer or whatever it might be to work with you then to
28:45
make those adaptations of right well we don't want them kicking or we don't
28:48
want them landing on that one foot can they change the jump to land on the opposite
28:52
foot or whatever it might be and you can work through it that way.
28:56
Absolutely. Yeah. And when you look at Bill Taylor, he's a perfect example of
28:59
that because he engrossed himself in it.
29:01
And you don't have to engross yourself in it. But if you have a dancer that
29:04
comes to your clinic, ask them questions.
29:07
Or I always say to the students, ask them to show you a video on their phone.
29:10
Show me what you actually have to do.
29:12
And then let's make your rehab look as specific as that before we allow you
29:16
to go back. Because that's how all of these re-injuries are happening so frequently.
29:20
And Liz made a really good point about like, it's never just an ankle sprain.
29:24
And the amount of dancers that'll say to me, oh, I just have weak ankles.
29:27
You're like, you're a dancer. Your ankles are supposed to be pretty bulletproof.
29:31
You know, particularly if you're looking at ballet dancers and they're on point
29:34
all the time or, you know, dancers that are dancing in barefoot or they're dancing
29:38
in heeled boots or, you know, your ankles should be pretty bulletproof for the most part.
29:44
And yeah, if you have an ankle sprain that's not rehabbed correctly,
29:47
you're probably going to have another one.
29:49
But it's never just the sprain. There's always something else that's going on.
29:51
And it's really important then to address that and to
29:54
try and figure out what do they need to be able to safely go
29:57
back without risking another injury particularly if they're
30:00
on contracts and that sort of stuff and they have to do however
30:03
many shows during the week or if they have a competition coming up
30:06
that's really important to them it's really important not to expose
30:09
them too soon to getting back into that sport and kind of
30:11
have that gradual progression like with any rehab but I think when people see
30:14
dancers it's nearly like Nikki's episode last
30:17
week people see learning disabilities and they're like oh I'm not qualified I
30:20
don't know how to do that because I don't have the experience
30:23
yeah yeah yeah whereas you do have the experience but
30:26
you have to look for the clues you know and like me as
30:29
a dancer going in and doing sports therapy and all of our rehab scenarios
30:32
in college were rugby players and gaelic players and football players
30:35
and I had to go off and study those sports and I try and explain to the students
30:38
you have to study the sport that your client is doing and it'll take you an
30:43
extra little bit of time but it'll help you then with your program and their
30:45
rehab to understand what it is they actually need and then when they don't get
30:49
injured all of a sudden now you're the dance specialist you're the one that's
30:51
in that kind of niche area because you've successfully got somebody back.
30:55
And they write about it to the other parents and the other dancers
30:58
and the dance teacher and whatever else and you don't need to
31:01
be the dancer to do that you just have to be able to research which we can all research that's
31:04
what we do all the time this is a good example i think
31:06
of where we mentioned this with nikki last week is and the
31:09
research supports it that for for successful outcomes
31:13
often the most important factors are the empathy the active listening
31:16
the alliance with the patient rather than just a tap
31:19
of knowledge which you're going to pour out of them so and this
31:22
is a great example you know even if let's imagine you
31:24
are you were a great dancer amazing trophies
31:28
all over your house but you've got you're not very good at empathy i mean
31:31
and you just start spouting out what this dance has got to do and handing them
31:34
out protocols you're not going to have as much success as the person who's got
31:36
lovely empathy and they listen and they they're not a dancer or they haven't
31:40
done the particular style of dancing if they're listening engaging going tell
31:43
me about it show me a little bit so does this mean and asking questions and
31:46
all that and showing interest great results that's that's a good confidence
31:50
boost you know what i think for For me,
31:53
I was always the very tight bay.
31:56
This is how it has to be done. This is the answer to the question.
31:59
And after reading the accident and having everything and kind of having a bit
32:02
of an identity crisis with my entire life, I think I developed a lot of empathy
32:05
in that situation for myself and for my clients, particularly people that struggle
32:10
with chronic pain and that sort of stuff as well.
32:12
So like that, it's developing further tools.
32:15
Yeah, we can all go and do a CPD course, but if you don't have that level of
32:18
empathy or the desire or want to actually help somebody, people are going to
32:23
end up re-injured and they're going to go to somebody else.
32:25
Do you know what I mean? And that's at the end of the day, we all work off word
32:29
of mouth and referral and all of that sort of stuff.
32:31
And the better you can be an advocate for your client, regardless of their sport,
32:36
the more people are going to rant and rave about you.
32:39
Definitely. I should point out just the people listening to the podcast,
32:43
Bill Taylor, he's not with the Scottish Ballet anymore. He was the consultant
32:46
physio, but he's not anymore.
32:47
So there we go. But I wanted to point out as well, that it's definitely an episode
32:50
to listen to with bill taylor i did have it here just now yeah it was.
32:56
Episode 123 and it's all about male pelvic
32:59
health red flags and there's scenarios with
33:02
dancers in that as well but bill taylor amazing educator great person well
33:05
worth listening to the other thing liz mentioned as
33:08
well and you've kind of tapped into as well was mental health of
33:12
of dancers and we know and liz mentioned on
33:15
on the show as well that not all but a lot of
33:18
dancers did get into it where validation was
33:21
one of the kind of factors maybe and there's self-esteem issues
33:24
that go with it as well but in your experience is that still something
33:27
which you need to be I mean everyone needs to be aware of the biopsychosocial factors
33:31
but with dancers is there particularly an element there
33:34
that you have to keep an eye out for absolutely there's definitely still that
33:36
element there and I think there always will be like as long as we've got a brain
33:39
in our head I think there'll always be elements of mental health struggles for
33:42
everybody and I think that's one thing that the dance college I'm working with
33:47
at the minute do really really well they bring a psychologist in at the start
33:49
of the year the same way they bring me in they bring like a nutrition talk and
33:52
the whole lot to give them an idea of.
33:55
This is what we should be thinking in terms of your physical health,
33:57
your mental health and your nutrition and making sure that you kind of have
34:00
that well-rounded approach.
34:02
And it's trying to filter that back down the line then as well.
34:05
And it can be quite detrimental to somebody's mental health if they do have
34:08
that identity crisis then of, oh, I'm injured and I'm missing my biggest competition
34:13
of the year that I've just spent the last 12 months training for.
34:16
And there's no point in me continuing on because by the time it gets to next
34:20
year, someone else will have won my title and I'm not defending the same title
34:23
anymore. And, you know, and this is going back into the amateur sports more than the West End pros.
34:28
If you look at the pros, then they're on contract. If they get injured,
34:32
they might end up out of a contract or struggling to find work.
34:35
And if that's your full time job, again, that's going to take a toll on the
34:39
mental health and your financial kind of position as well.
34:42
So it's something to always be aware of and to be cautious of.
34:45
Like I would have a handful of dancers that would be kind of semi-professional
34:50
or professional dancers. And when they are in contract with something,
34:53
they would then have to kind of like, they come into the clinic and they're
34:56
like, well, what can I do to perform?
34:58
I have to perform, otherwise I don't get paid. I don't get paid.
35:00
My bills don't get paid, you know, and that's a real kind of a lot of pressure
35:04
to put on somebody that's quite young as well.
35:06
And then I suppose, like we mentioned, when we look at the kind of body image
35:10
and body dysmorphia and that sort of stuff in really young dancers as well.
35:14
So I do see that there's more of a positive shift happening over the last kind
35:19
of couple of years, which is amazing to see.
35:21
But it really needs to kind of come from all angles, you know,
35:25
including parents and coaches and other dancers and having that kind of positive
35:29
imagery, positive self-talk, particularly during the rehab experience for our clients.
35:35
It's always like, you know, this is a stepping stone to get you back to there.
35:38
Each time there's a progression, really kind of driving that home of where weren't you doing incredible.
35:42
You're getting one step closer to being back on the dance floor,
35:45
back on the stage again, because it can be quite difficult.
35:49
And it's difficult for anybody with an injury. it really is and
35:52
we know that but when it's their livelihood or
35:55
like that they're training 20 hours a week and they might not be seeing their friends
35:58
as much you know it does really take a toll
36:01
on the mental health so it's just being aware and being cautious of
36:04
it and like that if it is somebody that's a minor pulling the parents into the
36:07
conversation to kind of take a look out for them as well it's really really
36:10
important in my experience great stuff yeah really cool okay well look it's
36:16
it's 8 39 we're going to start thinking about wrapping this short of week i
36:19
I could easily talk to you for another half hour, an hour. Fantastic.
36:22
It's great listening to you. And it's really nice bringing back the great things
36:26
which Liz said in that episode.
36:27
So just to let people know, and Liz, you can update me on this if any of this is not applicable.
36:34
But where is Liz Bailey these days? Because this was quite a while ago and things
36:38
have changed since then.
36:39
It's a great episode to listen to. But these days, Liz is pretty international.
36:43
She has a number of courses. If you're interested in going on our courses,
36:47
then go to the website, lizbaileyphysio.com.
36:50
To give you an idea of the courses, there's a one-day ankle,
36:52
which is from diagnosis to end-stage rehab. There's a one-day foot course.
36:56
There's a dance physiotherapy explored with a common injury screening,
36:59
dance-specific rehab, et cetera, et cetera.
37:01
And then there's a foot and ankle fundamentals, which is with Lizzie Marlow.
37:04
And it's a systematic approach to diagnosis and treatment, which is available
37:08
as a one or two-day course.
37:10
Have a look at the website. It says on there, I'm not sure which of these have
37:13
already happened, but it's going to be in Dubai, Switzerland,
37:16
Serbia, America, Denmark, and Ireland. And Ireland.
37:18
Has that happened yet, Liz? You better let us know the data back very quickly.
37:22
But yeah, so have a look at the website.
37:24
And if you have got any questions, then we can feed them to Liz,
37:27
or I'm sure there's a contact place you can go through there, lizbaileyphysio.com.
37:31
Do please make sure that when you type in Liz Bailey, it is B-A-Y-L-E-Y,
37:35
or we'll never hear at the end of it i think liz has probably got
37:38
the website b-a-i-l-e-y just to get
37:41
a redirect that would be sensible liz if you haven't done it already but yeah
37:44
it's a b-a-y-l-e-y and anyone who knows liz will understand what how that means
37:48
and how important it is to her but anyway so yes people we've been uh reflecting
37:52
on that episode episode 60 of the sports therapist association podcast working
37:55
with west end pro dancers which was recorded back in july 2021 with liz bailey
38:00
if you're interested in other episodes with liz then there's an episode 33 going
38:04
back even further to January that year, which was all about virtual consultation
38:08
for dancers, obviously with the COVID pandemic and everything that was very topical at the time.
38:12
Then we had the episode 60, then later on 81, where Liz joined Ian Lenane and
38:17
David Poulter for a fascia focus, which is an open group discussion,
38:21
which is very interesting as well.
38:22
And then Liz last joined us October 2022, which was episode 122,
38:27
which was the dancer's foot, which was a lot to do with our course and everything
38:30
and how our ideas were involved since we last spoke to her.
38:34
So check those out. Available as always on YouTube or on podcasts of your preference.
38:40
And reflecting on that episode, just to let you know, has been Shannon Byrne
38:44
of Rebound Injury Clinic in Dublin.
38:46
And Shannon, if people want to keep in contact with you and are interested in
38:50
you and your business, then we've got the website, which is reboundinjuryclinic.ie,
38:54
correct? Yeah, that's right. Fantastic.
38:56
And then active on Instagram, reboundinjuryclinic.
39:00
And Facebook, Rebound Injury Cleaning. Great marketing. Nice and easy. Very simple. Very good.
39:05
My twin sister is a marketing expert. She does everything for me.
39:09
I get in trouble for not having stuff like this behind me, but it works.
39:13
Oh, no, great. It really is important. Alistair, for example,
39:16
last week, sometimes it's underscore, they'll be physio underscore.
39:19
Sometimes you have to separate it. Yeah, he didn't have your sister.
39:22
They're obviously helping him.
39:23
Liz Bailey says, thanks for spelling. It matters. It does matter.
39:27
It is important, Bailey.
39:29
And she also says great job Shannon you're doing amazingly
39:32
fantastic yeah and I agree really nice and like
39:36
you said earlier on just to let people know you have got an online strength
39:39
and conditioning program haven't you that would be suitable for therapists and
39:42
or clients or both or so we run the
39:45
program via zoom it's specifically for dancers
39:48
and we do it live each week and we change up the program that they
39:51
do but like that if there's any therapists that are interested
39:54
maybe they have dancers that are missing that element of stranded condition and
39:57
want to refer in to us we do have the information up on our
39:59
website and if anyone has any questions they can pop us a message we're incredibly
40:03
active on instagram no it's well worth
40:06
following really cool so glenn murphy mbe says
40:09
that was really enjoyable there you go thank you so much you can now put that
40:12
on your cv sir glenn murphy mbe has has mentioned that so there you go that's
40:16
an update to your website um fantastic thank you so much for sharing your time
40:19
shannon it's been really lovely i love just hearing the passion in your voice
40:22
and your experience and history and everything and celebrating that episode. So, so cool.
40:26
Really interesting. So, thank you for your time. Thanks so much for having me
40:29
on. I really appreciate it.
40:31
I thought we set the benchmark high. This is going to happen every week now,
40:34
isn't it? I'm going to stop talking about benchmarks because you've just,
40:36
you know, you've leveled it.
40:37
It's like everyone's got two to compete with now. There's no competition at all, people.
40:42
And in fact, if you're listening to this and you would like to be on the show,
40:47
then I'd love to hear from you.
40:48
The only criteria is basically that you've listened to a past episode.
40:51
Just choose one that particularly affected you.
40:53
We're keen to hear how it affected your clinical practice or you as a person
40:56
or anything in your business.
40:58
Obviously you'll need a pc or a laptop preferably not
41:01
your phone hey shannon and you need a quality internet
41:04
connection webcam and mic but we can talk about that if
41:07
you're a bit nervous then i'm i'm double interested in hearing
41:10
from you we can set up a zoom call or something just to talk you through it
41:13
obviously you're going to be a little bit nervous but from talking to my guests
41:16
over the last 200 well not all of them a lot of them were very au fait with
41:20
podcasting but people who aren't that confident after you feel is a bucket list
41:25
tick it's like wow i did that and it really can And that confidence we know
41:29
can open up all sorts of avenues for you in terms of collaboration and networking.
41:33
And even with your clients, they'll notice it as well. It's something for you
41:35
to talk about and celebrate.
41:37
So do let me know if you're interested in being on the show to talk about a past episode.
41:41
Next week, I will be welcoming on April the 15th, 8 o'clock on YouTube, as always.
41:48
Your birthday. Fantastic. Oh, wow. Well, next week, there's no show.
41:51
Next week, we will be celebrating.
41:54
Now next week is going to be Anna-Marie Maccieri and Sarah Jones.
41:58
Sarah, who's in here tonight, actually. Sarah, how are you doing?
42:01
Sarah Jones says, great chat and enthusiasm. I'll catch the first bit that I
42:04
missed tomorrow. Great, Sarah. Good preparation for next week.
42:06
Don't forget, I'll send you an email.
42:08
But yeah, Sarah Jones and Anna Maria Maciori are going to be here from the ST
42:11
School, and they're going to be reflecting on episode 214, which was recorded last September.
42:16
What values make a professional therapist?
42:19
With me for that was my guest, Martin Christensen, who's probably,
42:23
and he'll be pleased to hear this, the physio or ex-physio now,
42:26
who has maybe feel most uncomfortable ever in my life, particularly at Therapy Expo.
42:31
Yeah he's just got a certain way that just makes everyone feel uncomfortable
42:34
but boy he puts out some home truths with that
42:37
and it's a fascinating episode and he was talking about how to
42:41
really help putting in a nutshell to really help the person in front of us do
42:45
we hinder their progress progress if we just maintain a strict kind of the way
42:51
we should dress the way we should look or should we thinking more of reflecting
42:54
the person in front of us so if they're more chilled out in jeans,
42:58
the t-shirt or whatever,
42:59
should you be reflecting that rather than forming a barrier by maintaining this
43:03
professional facade where really maybe you're not being that professional the way you talk.
43:06
So really interesting kind of philosophical but practical stuff,
43:09
which Anna Maria and Sarah will be talking about me and reflecting on in next week's episode.
43:15
So I do encourage you to come along and join us live if you can.
43:20
Nikki Mansfield, the guest from last week, has said, Shannon and I can just
43:23
sit back and heckle from now on.
43:25
There's method in the madness of going first. It's true.
43:28
You can. It'd be lovely to see you as well if you can come back.
43:31
Right. Thanks again, Shannon. Been really great. Thank you so much for giving
43:34
out your time. Really appreciate it. Thank you. I really appreciate being invited.
43:38
And yeah, hopefully. Thanks to everyone who joined us live as well.
43:41
Thanks for the great questions. Thanks, Liz, again for popping in.
43:43
Really nice to catch up with you. Hopefully you'll catch up face-to-face somewhere.
43:46
Maybe in Ireland. Weren't you in Ireland? Let's find out. Maybe we could hook
43:49
up and go to Shannon's place. Yeah. Absolutely.
43:52
We'll form a WhatsApp group afterwards. But anyway, yeah.
43:55
Hopefully see some of you listeners back with us. If you do want to join us
43:57
live, then yeah, Tuesday 8 o'clock on YouTube. That's where we are.
44:00
So until then, thanks, everybody, and take care of each other.
44:03
Music.