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From Burnout to Action: Applying Behavior Analysis to Ourselves and Our Organizations · ABA Business Leaders

• speaker-0: The household I grew up in was very chaotic and unstable, which means chaos and instability and urgency are actually more comfortable for me and tell me things are okay because that's known. So if you're listening and you are someone who like me is awesome in an emergency, in what way might you be recreating that in your day-to-day life? Because that feels familiar and known. The times I don't do that well, I'm dysregulated. speaker-1: I think is part of being neurodivergent, but just of who I am is like I I don't get those signals. I don't always even know when I need to go to the bathroom or when I need to drink or when I need to eat. speaker-2: When I find myself in curiosity, the shame kind of drops away. I was doing jiu-jitsu there for a while and I would get into a hole that I didn't like and I'm like, I should have done this. I should have done that. If you're there, you're not here, right? You're not figuring out, how do I get out of this thing that I hate? speaker-1: Hello, everyone. Welcome to ABA Business Leaders Podcast brought to you by 3Pie Squared. I'm April. speaker-2: I'm Stephen. speaker-1: All right, guys. Today we have with us Becca. That was such a fun. Like you could tell the level of excitement that I have for a podcast a lot of times by how quickly I rush the intro. really? Yeah. I'm like, okay, here we are. This is who we are. This is okay, now let's start talking, right? So back in May, not that long ago, as this this podcast, I believe, is going to air in July. So summer ish. So this is a summer podcast. but back in May we sat down with Dr. Becca Tag and had a conversation that I think resonated with a lot of people in our field and it and even between The three of us, I think we sat with this podcast a little while even after sitting together to record it and we weren't quite sure, at least for my speak for myself, wasn't quite sure like how I felt about it and where it landed for me. I don't know, Becca, did you it seems like you maybe had some similar thoughts? speaker-0: Yeah, I I I wit and I'm happy to show I had reached out afterwards that it it felt unfinished or yeah, like the loop hadn't closed and I I think it is so important and because of that I really appreciate being able to open the dialogue back up again. 'Cause I feel like we talked a lot about how we got where we are and all of those variables and contexts matter. So we talked about all of them. And that meant we didn't really get into what do we do with that. And I think that's it's important to feel that validation, right? Name it to tame it, like Dr. Dan Siegel says. But then what do we do with it? And and that's I think why I was feeling like, I don't know that that not went well because I it's not good or bad. I I didn't feel like I delivered something that was helpful. and that is important to me 'cause This is our science. We actually know some things here. speaker-1: Totally same same with us, right? I I sometimes we'll we'll term it like doom and gloom. and I tease around that Steven brings us to that doom and gloom. But that's part of like what our con that that's part of the conversation, right? Being able to really name all of the things. And so we talked about in the past podcast, just briefly we talked about burnout, self-care, systemic challenges, and a lot of the realities that we like that we face, like being ABA leaders and clinicians and within our organization. So And I did one of the things I did appreciate, I appreciate many things about the conversation, but one is that we did not oversimplify the challenges. I felt like we were pretty real with spending the time, like you sat a few minutes like really sitting with that. And so that we did acknowledge that there's a lot of struggles and that people experience that aren't just the individual problems. And we also discussed about how as individuals we have responsibility. two. So so yeah, so I'm really excited about continuing this conversation and to see how can we like where do we go from here? And we'll dive, we'll see where the conversation takes us. I can guarantee you by the end of this we're gonna be like, but we wanna say these things too that we didn't have time to cover. So as we always say here, we're just getting the conversation started. We are by no means touching all of the variables and all of the points here as we were discussing before we hit record. the it seems like Dartabreca and and my brains work very similarly in the way of wait how many things we're holding at once within our brains and how many dri different directions we want to go and what we want to cover and the connections that we're making amongst all of those thoughts. So so we're just gonna we're just gonna hop in and and see where this conversation takes us. Yeah. Like tell us all the answers. Like like give us the easy speaker-0: Well shit. If I so I no but honestly, even if I did, I wouldn't hand it to you. And here's why. Because and I think this is for me the overarching thing. I am never gonna be more of an expert on your experience. gosh, that's gonna be I am never gonna be more of an expert on your experience than you are, and I will and the moment I stop remembering that as forefront. That's when I'm most likely to do harm. So me assuming that I know what your easy button is, that's especially if there's a power differential, right? So if I'm the professional, I think this is a trap for helping professionals, period. This is not about BCBAs or any like it's about all of us because I because we are all perfectly imperfect. So we feel like we are expected to solve it, right? But I I can't solve that for humans aren't a puzzle that needs solved. First of all, we're not broken. We don't need fixed. What we need is understanding. And understanding is about accurately taking the other person's perspective while simultaneously knowing this process is never done because we are we are what makes me is the sum of my experiences. And I'm always experiencing, which means the model, right? Me is always changing. So if you as the professional are trying to understand me, you must be always updating your model based on the information or data I'm bringing. So I think that's one of the places where we get stuck as we think, I'm gonna finish finish this, right? This is done. I understand it. But in reality, it's an it's truly an ongoing process, whether it's self-discovery or of other. And we must remember that the other person has access to data about themselves that we don't have. So I must always update. And that's where I see folks get stuck: is not doing the continuous updating, whether it's your organizational policies and practices, your case conceptualization, your supervision practices, right? We want to finish it. But what if we change the operational definition of finish to be doing right the good job, which is that it's ever changing. It's not, well, this is the way we've always done it. speaker-2: Yeah, I agree with that and I think something a lot of owners need to understand is like it took you six months to a year to five years to get here and to expect tomorrow you're gonna fix this is an unrealistic expectation right and I think that you know when you get into those situations you want to fix now we have to change this now we have to do this right now and I think that that's putting a lot of undue pressure on an individual or an organization to kind of pivot like that. speaker-1: Yeah, I know it like okay, so I'm my brain is going a different direction than I expected it to go. And I love that. Yeah, right. And but like too, like what about the humanness of like carrying that shame of like there it like with there being like the right and wrong way of doing things, right? And then like, if what if I do it the wrong way, right? Or gosh, I've been doing it the wrong way, and then there's like all of that shame that that's there that looks different. Depending on the person, but that's I think at the that's kind of where it is, right? speaker-2: or the avoidance speaker-0: The shame actually goes away when I view it as an ongoing process because you're never right or wrong because it's never done. So there is no right or wrong or shame. That goes away. I'm going to make errors. That's the right. It's not about avoiding errors. It's I'm going to make them. My goal is to make is to not make the same ones multiple times, to catch them quicker, to not go down when I make a mistake, right? Not to be a shit to myself. And not do real harm, or if I do ex own it, period, and accept accountability. But like there isn't that shame because this is the process, like this is what it look this is six this is what a success. I we had a new learner starting today and I heard myself just get ready to say what I said to her name's Alicia, to Alicia. This is what a session number two with the two point five year old looks like. Right. This is success. It I think You had a different idea of success of this session. You were using a other definition for a different kid. That means you're not updating the model. Let's pause, update the model. We are on this date with this kid, like calibrate. This is what success looks like in the in all these contexts. Because context determines what makes something anything, right? Appropriate, not appropriate, helpful, less helpful, harmful or not. Context. speaker-1: Yes, a hundred percent. And and it, you know, in fact, it it's it's really interesting because I took on this perspective for dishes and laundry in my house, right? Dishes are always ongoing. You eat, you dirty dishes, they fill the sink, you wash them, you put them away, you bit da da da da da da. Same with laundry, right? Like if you if you no longer have dirty dishes or dirty laundry, then you're like no longer living or you know but you know, like like the it they're always gonna happen. And who says that you have to have a clean sink every day? Who says you have to have a fresh new, like you know, all of your clothes washed every Saturday, right? And and it seems like a really simple thing, but i I recognize within myself a couple of years ago of how much power, how much worth I was putting within like those those tasks that are never going to be completed. They're ongoing and that's okay and that's normal. Right. Like that's how it's meant to be. and because I was like trying to figure out, maybe I maybe I should do laundry day on Thursday instead of Saturday. And maybe I but but it was because like the outcome was diff was expecting some kind of completeness, some kind of finish, some kind of perfection. that just is is not part of that. And so I I've kind of used that analogy a few times when when I've talked to business owners who are kind of stuck at stuck, but finding themselves in these situations to help to kind of look at it a little differently. And so I don't know, that kind of that came to mind when when you were saying what you were so speaker-0: What how do we define clean? Because I my guess is that you were defining clean as like no dirty dishes in the sink, right? I don't know. Maybe clean is yeah. Yeah, right. That's a that's a different task than all the dirties are in the sink. Now maybe my kitchen's clean. F the sink, right? Like we get we get to decide for us what that looks like. I think we forget that. We have free will. Right. not doing the dishes in my mind is an excellent use of that. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Right. And even in those moments, being able to prioritize and be able to shift gears. And maybe this week it is important to get the dishes done. Maybe next week it's not. Right. And and being able to have that flexibility. And I think there's there that there's a lot of that. I'm like oversimplifying it in a way with, you know, talking about dishes. But I think that there's a lot of that even within our field and within our day-to-day practices of how we what our s expectations are or how we feel. our work day or our company or our services should go, how things go on our field, and then there's like disconnect. And then it's we were talking before about you know, all the variables, right? But then also we were you talking about your light bulb moment that you had had here recently and we were both very passionate, talking about some similar perspective similar stories about and you termed it as like taking perspective, being able to take perspective. speaker-0: thought that came to my mind when you were talking was about that pivot that just that you know reprioritizing the what the times I don't do that well I'm dysregulated. So again that's where our wellness comes into play, like pausing for a minute and checking in with myself, right? The interoceptive system I had mentioned and that's how we make sense of our internal sensations, hunger, thirst. my bladder full, how am I feeling, right? That that can feelings also have sensations. And so when we're doing, doing, doing, which we are not human doings, we are human beings, but we do not create space to be. But without creating that being, that time to check in and like, how am I doing? Which is where your frontal lobe comes online. We need our prefrontal cortex to do the executive functions as a neurodivergent person. I have it more executive dysfunction. And it gets worse when I'm wound up, right? And wound up meaning I'm having these big emotions that maybe I'm not aware of. I have some states of deprivation, like maybe I'm dehydrated, I'm hungry, I'm tired, I'm not aware of that. I'm not giving, I'm not updating my perspective of self to include. I'm at a reduced capacity, Becca. Why are you adding more shit to your list? So I'm making choices that are not. For me. They're not actually for Becca in this moment because I'm not in a place to be able to do that. So something that has been a big help for me that I'm ever working on is I have alarms set in my phone for eight times throughout the day. It's embarrassing to say that, but to like take five seconds, literally stop what I'm doing, even if I'm in the middle of something, brain, you gotta take five seconds and check in with myself, do like a quick body scan. how when is the last time I ate? When am I hydrated? Do I have to pee? What feeling am I feeling? Do I have some MS symptoms? Like really what's happening? And then spend a second or two doing some somatic activity based on that data to try to stay closer to regression to the mean, right? Try to get back to my baseline so that I'm not going so far out. And because I love the work that I get to do, like I love the work that we get to do. I get so excited about doing it that I'm I'm in a Dr. Chick Send me Hall's flow state a lot of the time, working on things, and so I don't stop. But that then results in at the end of the day, I feel crappy and it happens pretty consistently. And I had to diagram out my behavior, and then it was clear what the what was happening. I was doing, doing, doing, not being, neglecting my needs. Then at the end of the day, I'm skidding across home base like I barely made it. I can change that though, once I can accurately see the pattern and my participation in the pattern. Because I'm contributing to that. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, before again, before we hit record, you know, we were we were talking about this a little bit. And after Sarah Moore, the podcast that we had with Sarah Moore a a few podcasts ago, it you know, one of her, I guess, challenges or one of her suggestions was to pee when you need to pee and drink water when you need to drink water. And and yeah, that like really resonated with me because I'm aware that I will and she said, like before you Don't don't do like, as soon as I finish this one more thing, as soon as I finish this email, then I'll go take care of my needs, right? Or, you know, it's like stop everything and take care of your needs right then. And she was kind of I can't remember what in the terms she was talking about, but like is it in in the sense of taking care of yourself, right? I mean, it was all around about nervous system regulation, but that was just one piece of like the interoception of just being able to listen to your body. And and I r I recognize too, like a while back when we when Steven and I in our family, we've been kind of really focusing on a kind of, but I think we really have been focusing on taking care of ourselves and what does that mean. and that was one of the things that I think is part of being neurodivergent, but just of who I am is like I I don't get those signals or I've learned to ignore those signals or I don't know what happens to those signals in my brain, but I don't always even know when I need to go to the bathroom or when I need to drink or when I need to eat. And and so even just this little this activity these last couple of weeks of, I think, I need to go to the bathroom. Okay, go pee. Right. It's it's really been really life changing, a little embarrassing. A little like, wow, am I a toddler? Like I This what is happening here? And also freedom, you know, with understanding a little bit more of how all of these things relate in my body, right? speaker-0: Right. So so the reason that happens that you don't tune into the signals is because so for people who are neurodivergent, the stimuli all comes in at the same volume, right? Like the reason I have these in is because one of the lights in here is still fluorescent and it buzzes and I can't think straight. Like I I that's really hard for me. because it all comes in at the same volume. So we become hypo-responsive, right? And and the reason I'm taking the time to explain this is because this Parallel process happens with our little learners if we're working with kids with autism, and a lot of us are. so you become hypo-responsive, under-responsive to those signals, you tune them out. It's not that we have high pain tolerance, it's that we are good at ignoring ourselves. And so everything, so in order for it to actually register, it comes, it's got to hit a 10. That's why we struggle so much and have to teach. Kids and ourselves, those early, I call them pink flags, right? Those early, early indicators. What does a three or a four look like? Because I'm not going to notice till a 10, because everything comes in at a six. So to land through all the other stimuli, it's gotta be much higher. So it's like recalibrating our interception to have a lower threshold of what. comes through. But if no one explored and because no one explained this to me, I didn't know that's what was happening. So I was a jerk to myself, like, God, you can't even human well. Like water, sleep, eat. Come on, Becca, what in the but yeah, that's true. Which means I'm not holding true that perspective for me, which is all the stimuli comes in at the same volume. If I was holding that contextual variable as like relevant all the time, which it is, it probably wouldn't have taken so long. I don't have to be a jerk to myself about it. It's a I would remember that about somebody else. So making sure I'm returning that same attention to detail to to me also and that that's okay and necessary to to do. Does that make sense? So then we know what to We got here. It's not that I'm crappy at being a human. It's that my nervous system is different because I exist in the world differently. And at 44, I I it's been this pattern. On what planet do I think this is going to change in a day or a week? That is delusional on my again. There's no nothing wrong with me. That depends who you ask, right? It's my goal sucked. The belief that I could do this in a in a week, that was the problem, not the starting point. speaker-1: I love learning and I love soaking in information and if I'm interested about something I'm gonna just dive in and find out all I can find. I mean it could be, you know, it could just be part of the way my brain works, but and and so so I love I I I love that we're taking the time to talk about this because it's important and to to help understand and the what I was my brain's working faster than my my words can make sense. but I think too it's important that even though what I'm saying is even though I'm so interested in in these parts and I'm trying to learn, it's it wasn't until very recently that when it involved my person, myself, my you know, understanding how these things that I applied with the learners that I worked with and even the staff that I, you know, that that I supported for years, it it it's all seems so brand new. in in the last few years looking at it and what it means to me and how it relates to me. And so I I this love where a lot of our episodes have been going over the past year, really landing and talking about the humanness and talking about who we are and our responsibility and our, you know, the power in, you know, and control. I mean, I know there's that whole saying like You're you're never really in control. But you know what I mean. Like having some sense of like agency, right? of of who we are and how we show up and and how that can not that we're doing it just to be better professionals, but that is like part of it that we do become better professionals because of it. So speaker-0: Yeah, 'cause we're the vehicles of ch like we are the vehicle of change. Like we are in the room with the learners. This came up in a grad student supervision this week too, and she was asking I guess how I learned that. I I don't know. I I think one of the differences is my psych training, you always start with self. Yeah. Like I had to in my doc program, you have to do fifty-two, or maybe was fifty-eight, sessions with a doctoral psych of your own therapy with a doctoral psychologist who's been licensed at least five years or more. And our papers are about like in early like grad psych, it's it's not it's not looking at other, it's how does this impact me? What is my tint to the glasses? Like my mom was a counselor and she used to say we're all wearing tinted glasses. Our job is not to take them off. That's impossible. It's to know what tint ours are. When I don't know what tint mine is or that I'm wearing a glass the glasses, I am more likely to do harm to you because I'm gonna be screaming at you that that wall is green when you're saying it's yellow and it is yellow. I'm wearing blue glasses. I have now gaslit you, right? So it's it's about understanding self our you know, the stuff you like, the stuff you don't, your glows and grows. And then keeping that as context, as protection for those aro around us, whether we're talking professionally or personally. And so I I think that's one of the differences in in training that then shows up as professionals. I'm not saying it's good or bad. It's just is. And if we're not aware of it, that's when maybe it gets in our way and we don't realize it because we don't know what we don't. No. So I I love that idea of of more folks are looking at how can I use the science for myself? speaker-1: It works 'cause works. I know. It it works. I know. speaker-0: And then we are intimately connected to what does behavior change feel like because it does feel uncomfortable sometimes. And that helps us it take the perspective of our little learners, whether that's our, you know, kids, whether work kids or like life kids or teens or you know, just humans, period, it keeps us updating that model because you're the expert on you. I will never be more of an expert on you than you are. speaker-1: Yeah. And I I think that that we can take that and shift it to like that leadership level perhaps, like because I have a lot of conversations with leaders and please please hear me. I am not judging that like it it's it's just one of the situations that we find ourselves when we're in this spot and we're, you know, practicing ABA, we're clinicians, we we're we started our own business, we've hired staff and we've been in a lot a lot of people are like so th we're client focused, right? We're we're we're wanting to provide what we want to provide, what we need to provide. we want to provide it for the clients and yes yes absolutely and we have staff and and a lot of times that our our bcbas our admin staff our rbt's our hr our billing depending on the size of your company right the various staff within our company I hear a lot we hear a lot about they're not doing their job or things that lean towards me wondering if the leaders, the owners aren't understanding or applying the science to the people, to the, as you call them, I think, big learners, right? Yeah. and so how and we talked about, we touched on this last the last podcast. But what are some ways that we can build a healthier organization? And by that I mean being able to have a learning culture and a human culture like within all the humans in the company? I don't know. I know that's like very broad, but do you know where I'm kinda going with this, like trying to connect the dots here? speaker-0: I think s well I don't know. I hear what comes to mind open speaker-1: Get in my brain, like come on. speaker-0: to feedback. What I know is when I'm feeling that way, right? When I'm feeling gosh, they're not getting it, they're not doing this. It's usually because I'm tapped out. I don't have the capacity to reteach. That may have nothing to do with the other person. It's that my own needs aren't met, so I can't Teach, right? It's the same as self-care. What right? People say, Well, you pour from a your you can't pour from an empty cup. Stop pouring from your own cup, actually. That's the issue. It's those that champagne tower you pour in the top glass and that overflows. So you actually not you, I hate we as leaders have to be so well resourced that you are fed from my overflow. We don't do that. And and I mean we, I mean I. This week has been a challenge. I've I'm it's Thursday. I'm I i it's been a challenging week. My dog died last week. I I you don't bounce back from that right away. Then we had some other things happen that I'm lower. My cup is down here, which means a drop in it. Well, let me say that differently. My cup is actually filled to the top. I haven't been clearing down to my baseline. So a drop makes me overflow the nonsense, right? We want our cups to be here. So I'm well resourced. I've got room to absorb the nonsense that's gonna come through. That's my job as a leader. My team's job and my job is to make sure that I've got capacity. I know I'm the only one who knows what my capacity is. I have to communicate that, but we don't. We absorb, absorb, absorb, and then wonder why breaking a pencil point makes us cry. Because it's not about the pencil point. It's all this other absorption that I didn't pause and take inventory of where I'm at. So I didn't realize my cup, I don't have any more capacity. So I because I don't mind teaching. I actually love teaching. And I do get snappy if I have to do the same thing a million times. And the reason why is because I don't have the capacity. I I I don't mind teaching it. Does that make sense? It's it's again mis mis It's not prioritizing myself as a member of this organization and seeing myself as the one who pours out of my cup for everyone else. That can't work. That doesn't work because they don't get a good Dr. Becca when I do that. I can finish the task, but usually at a relational cost. speaker-2: It's it's kind of like death by a thousand pinpricks, right? Like you just and and Like is this do you think that this is uniquely a bcba issue? that or do you think that this is just a human issue because like and and we talked about this the last time but You know bcbas like aba you're kind of of let's ignore the bad right or ignore And and so is that something that we've just built? In as a habit kind of does that make sense? Yeah, where we don't see that in other fields speaker-0: Think it's both. I I do think we experience it as BCBAs maybe more than other groups because of some of those other contextual factors that are unique to behavior analysis. I think this is a human in 2020 and July, June 2026 thing, because there's a lot of things happening that are pouring into our cup, making it too full, just as a human in the world existing in a world with a lot of like. What what do you call like not fighting necessarily, but like fighting that is not helpful. What conflict conflict brings you out of regulation. It does because you don't f brings me out of regulation. I don't feel safe and secure. I feel like I have to be hypervigilant and always ready to like respond or react and things are more unpredictable. So I'm not returning to my baseline in the same way. Right. I think it's Again, there's some things that make it more for B C B A's, like we work with challenging behaviors or interfering behaviors. That increases right hypervigilance. We use tiered models. So we wanna support and protect our big learner that we're supervising. We wanna support parents. We're I mean, I think there are some unique things about being a B C B A that up it, but I I think this is a human a human thing that Actually, I don't know that I thought of it this way until just now, that if there's a lot of conflict around us, which I think there is, then we feel less safe, which means we are less willing and able to be vulnerable. So I'm less willing to say I'm struggling and I need help is one part because I don't feel able to be vulnerable if I don't feel like we're a team. The other part is that model, that ongoing model. When I say I'm struggling, I think this is true for leaders, period. I did a video about this called the competence tax. When you are generally high performer, when I say I'm struggling and I need help, a lot of times people don't help because my struggling doesn't look like they think it should. And so they think I'm not actually struggling. But the way that feels for me is that no one's believing me. that you think you know more about me than me. I'm saying I'm struggling. So yes, I'm not getting the help I'm asking for, but I feel incredibly invalidated because I don't feel seen or witnessed. And as a human, that's really what we're looking for on earth. Someone to witness our truth as our truth. And so I I think that can then lead to further feeling unsafe. And it all goes back to that perspective taking to me. It's it's what you say is true for you is true for you. Whether you're a little learner and you're chucking the hatchamals across the room, whether you're a supervisee telling me you don't understand, it doesn't matter that I explained it 20 times and I think you should know it. You don't. I need to honor that and reteach it, right? Or or whatever we're doing. When I'm saying if somebody says they need help and they're struggling, doesn't what you see doesn't look like them struggling, that doesn't mean they're not struggling. We have to honor. what the other person is saying, because they are the experts on them and we are constantly updating our model. For that example of reteaching things, something I do that a early business coach taught me, that I is now part of my just SOP. Anytime I'm doing something, I record myself doing it. So I always have a recorded, like a screen record or an audio, I'll talk it out while I'm doing it. So when I have hired folks or I've given tasks away, It's easier to give them away because there's a concrete resource built. It's not another task for me to have to build in order to give it away. It's already built because I'm doing it as part of my workflow. And then you just upload all these videos to whatever you're using. And then you've got your training manual ready made. And the person can reference it a million times without having to ask you potentially. speaker-2: Yep, and I mean now even it's even better because you can then transcribe that video turn it into a SOP Step by step, right and you can even add a competency measure on there Like how do I know when I've done this correctly? and I think that that can be very helpful and like, you know, I I was working with a company, think they were in Illinois and they lost their vice president of billing. And I think it was their only biller, right? But like they had a wonderful title and she had been with them for like 10 years and she just quit. like they didn't even have their passwords. They didn't know what clearing houses they use. didn't know. Like she just did it all. And that knowledge was gone. just poof, 10 years of billing knowledge is just gone. And I think that more companies really need to do that. It's so easy to do, right? And it can be very helpful. Yeah. So that absolutely is a great idea. speaker-0: Well, I wonder if that connects to what you were saying about that shame piece, right? Because if somebody's listening and they just heard Steven say that and they're like, shit, I've never recorded anything. Now I have a million long tasks to do. Listen, I should have been doing this from the start. But no, no, no. Why why we that was a big leap. When speaker-1: A hundred percent. speaker-0: we give correction or we're teaching, it's about behavior. It's not about you as a human. You as a human has not changed. In the last 15 seconds before Steven said that and after. But the way we respond is like, well, now I'm just a b I'm gonna go eat worms. Well, why? That is an indicator, right? We've gone from zero to a hundred, right? Which is how things work. But we didn't notice that we were actually starting off too high. We were already on the verge of like woundiness. So hearing one tiny thing sent us a two, I'm gonna eat worms. I got a case of the efforts. Well, that's dysregulation. I can hear we're just talking about behavior. Nobody's worth changes as a human. You don't have to earn that. You are valuable. Period. And when we s I I think that's a that that's important to remember and is maybe different than some of the messages we either perceive that we received or that we very directly perceive. There's no cows, no conditions of worth. You matter because you exist. Right. You don't have to earn food, you don't have to earn water, you don't earn safety. You you you You should have these things. You don't have to earn a pee you don't have to earn a pea break, right? But that's when I get this certification, then I will be enough. As a dropout to doctor, the way you do anything is how you do everything. The way you feel about yourself is not gonna magically change because you graduated or you have a different job. That's that Dr. Josh Pritchard, I saw him just post this on on Facebook this week and I actually screenshotted it, shot it, shot at it. And he and it said like somebody had posted anonymously in a group in one of the like BCBA job groups and said, you know, here's what my compensation package is. And after seeing these other responses, I think I'm being low-bought. And he said, Don't let somebody else's post. make you dislike something that you were in love with before you saw it. And how many of us do that? Whether it's about a job, but we're missing their perspective. We're missing the actual contextual variables that make that job different than another job, even with the same compensation package. That's that holding all the perspectives or all the contexts as important at the same time because I would know I don't have all that info. What what is what else is part of that? speaker-2: Yeah, I had a boss a long time ago and you know, he said Stephen don't measure your self-worth by your paycheck Right. and i'm sure he was saying that apparently because he didn't want to give me a raise but you know the but like you know as I i've you know moved to different jobs and responsibilities like I I 100 agree with that right like There are times where I felt happier when I had $10 in my bank account than when I had $10,000 in my bank account. And so I think there is that false sense in this society that if you have more, you'll be happier. I think that that's just the way we've kind of grown up, at least me. And then when you realize that is not actually true, it doesn't really matter, then maybe you can then realize that you have value no matter what, right? speaker-1: Only thing it's not the only thing that matters, right? That they're there involved speaker-2: Yes. Sure. speaker-1: in that. Sure. speaker-0: Just saying, and in that way we're back at that looking at self again. Yes. I I wonder if it might be a useful exercise for folks to like case conceptualize themselves. Like draw it out. Were you a behavior as a psychologist, right? As a behavior analyst, as a what you know, kind of who are you? What are the contextual variables that you believe are most important to you? It's like what I do with teen, with people in therapy. It's like a lot of times we're creating this field guide for themselves about themselves. We can only do that when we know self. And that's really important because that's understanding like that makes it how do I say that? That helps us keep the salient information about self in the forefront of our mind so that then I'm more likely to notice, gosh, you know what? Hauser died last week. Becca, why'd you any of this extra stuff that's not has to be done, get it off your daggone plate. That is how I should have I could have taken care of myself and I didn't. And so this week has been harder. Pushing through ain't it. Right. White knuckling, instead of seeing that as something that we need to push through, I really hope that we're able to use that as data. Do I have to push through? Look, sometimes you do. If the house is on fire, you have to get out. But we are I, let me not put that on anyone else. I respond to things like the house is on fire when it isn't. And some of that I'm learning is because the household I grew up in was very chaotic and unstable. Which means chaos and instability and urgency are actually more comfortable for me and tell me things are okay because that's known. So if you're listening and you are someone who, like me, is awesome in an emergency, like I thrive in a crisis, I'm gonna hold a hand and say, In what way might you be recreating that in your day-to-day life? Because that feels familiar and known. And be kind to yourself about it because you we don't choose what our nervous system become right grows up in. But when we understand it, then we can decide what we want to do. And I can say to myself, self, what are you doing, girl? You're not five anymore. You can get up and move. You don't have to tolerate this, or now isn't then you're safe now, right? Like we can talk to ourselves. With that context in mind, instead of being like, What is my problem? Why can't I get it together? I want to talk to that five year old Becca and be like, Yeah, you you do keep ending up in these situations. I wonder if it's because this feels known. You're saying you don't like it, but humans do tend to change choose a familiar hell over an unfamiliar heaven. speaker-1: Absolutely. And and so I I I love where this is going because I think that a lot of business owners who are listening right now who are in those startup phases. Well, it starts a lot of times in the startup phases and then it continues. And you're a year five, six, seven, ten, twelve years into business, and you're still in that same place. speaker-2: Firefighting mode speaker-1: We were the first year and and so you're not alone. You're not alone. we we hear this story regularly. Let's talk action. Let's talk, okay, what how do you how do you shift things? In general, I know well this is not individual therapy and we don't know everyone's story, right? But how do you what are some steps that we can take to shift? out of that place of, you know, because personally not work related, because apparently I like talking about dishes and closet. I had a whole closet analogy. I was like, it's like the whole closet. I just perched the closet and now the mess is in the floor. The closet's beautiful, but now I have all this mess on the floor. I don't know what to do with it. But we have a big trip coming up and I'm prepared for this trip. We don't we have we leave days from now. And we could walk out the door pretty much in a couple of hours and be ready. I've never in my life experienced that. On the couple of days before, you know, yelling at everybody screaming. And I've been stating my intention to my family for the last two weeks. And I've asked of them what I need from them so that we can leave to go on our trip and all feel safe and and and grounded and we can bring joy with us, right? But the last couple of days, my body is producing anxiety. Like I had like major anxiety yesterday and I felt like, huh. But I was like, wait, hold on a minute. I there's nothing to feel aha about, right? Like, I think my body is trying to remember what it feels comfortable doing when we're heading to like a transition, like a big trip, and it's trying to create that for me. And I'm choosing not to like step into it. So like for those business owners that we find ourselves in this spot all the time. I don't know, where where was some s what do we do? Well speaker-0: One thought is I wanna gently challenge that you're labeling it as anxiety. 'Cause I think that's you operating under your old model. Because anxiety and excitement is the same biological process. The only thing different is what our cognitive appraisal is. And so you're again choosing that unfamiliar that familiar sort of hell and you're kind of being like mean to you a little bit like speaker-1: I'm calling it like speaker-0: April, let yourself be excited. That's what I hear, that you're excited. Yeah. Right? And so it's updating that model. It's and that's where I think that case conceptualization of self is an important first start because once we have the data, we're behavior analysts. We actually know exactly what to do. We're looking for functionally equivalent alternatives. And we're limited only by our creativity. So knowing that that's your previous pattern and that you're doing things different this time. And what do we know about an right? About what is anxiety? Anxiety is increased escalation, escalated increased activity biologically. Okay, that's also excitement. Man, I love that for you. What and and because you have this self-awareness, you can see it because you're outside of it. Does that like when we put that self-that case conceptualization? I mean put it on paper about self so we can look at it, which creates some separation. And then I can look at it more objectively, and it's just data. It's not good or bad, it just is. So things like communication, clear communication. So asking others for what you need and saying that directly, right? Clear is kind, unclear is unkind. I need this. That's where it gets in that for the folks that are in community with us, and when we are in community with others, we need to hear what people are saying. And Trust that they are the expert on themselves and what they're saying is true. Right. Ask questions if you're not sure. I think that's also important. There's a lot of assumptions, right? Because something I've learned is that neuro typical people communicate much more So accuracy is really important to me. I need accuracy to remain oriented and safety comes from that. So I say exactly what I mean and mean what I say very directly. And other folks I've learned use language more casually, which is a challenge for me, right? Like somebody says they're gonna call me in five minutes and I've the heartbreak of my life is literally sitting waiting because They said five minutes or things like, let's go hang out. And they didn't mean that, but they said that. So then I keep following up like a you know that those are the places where the different types of communication are are different. So I know I need to ask now, do you mean five minutes? So I just wanna help you know, I wanna help myself understand and plan, but so I can say that now, right? Do you mean five minutes? I wanna make sure I'm available. I know that sometimes people say that, but That isn't always what they mean. We can ask for clarifying. We have free will. And that's okay to do, right? Clear is kind. Other people don't know what I need if I don't tell them. And if I do tell them and they're regularly not being responsive, then I right you can't change the people around you, but you can change the people around you. Then then maybe that person needs to be in a different seat around. Me, they or not around me because they're showing that it's just data. I'm not mad at anybody. It's just data and we move accordingly. And so when you can see on paper the these big rocks, right? The big contextual variables that are impactful for each of us, we can craft our life individualized because it has to be, right? Like even if we're both neurodivergent, first off, that's such a broad term. What do we mean, right? I've got four diagnoses that fall under that. you you probably don't have the same ones. Even if you had the same ones, we didn't grow up in the same house. So we have different lived experience which contributes to those contexts. So I really think the starting point is to get really clear on who we are and how we came, and part of that is how we came to be this way. So that when we're looking for, you know, when we identify these areas that we want to change our action or change how they are, we can look at how we got there so that it's a can you know it's contextually matched which is culturally responsive and trauma informed right that's what those mean is we're taking those contexts into account and then design for ourselves and BCBAs are like a mate like this is what we know it's it's using the process we know assess, intervene, monitor, rinse and repeat. We know how to do that. That's what's so exciting to me about our field is that we are holding exactly what we need. speaker-1: So when okay, so how do we know? And maybe like, yes, we're all human, but maybe let's look at this at the lens of that owner or leader that's in the, you know, leading this company. How do you know when to push through and when not to push through? How do you know if the fire is real and you gotta get out of the house? Because what happens is there's so many daily fires i th people come to us saying that there's daily fires and yes there's a whole there there are a lot of things that you can do you can look at the behaviors you can look at the the the antecedent strategies environmental strategies you look at your policies you can look at your procedures you can look at all that stuff and that can help but when you're in that dregation speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-1: when you're in that constant fire after fire after fire emer like everything's an emergency what do you do how do you know speaker-0: We're not present, right? That goes back to that get your frontal lobe back online. Don't make decisions when we're disregard. We have to know self enough to know that I am dysregulated in this moment. I am of no use to anyone, myself included. And then the more we're in that dysregulated state, that's our baseline. So then we actually create dysregulation because that's that known state. And so we're we're constantly looking for homeostasis. Homeostasis does not mean regulated for a lot of us. And I do say us. It's something I have to work towards. It's also I have to be able to separate out the way someone's bringing it to me and my appraisal of what's actually happening because I have information they don't. This may feel urgent to them. I have a bigger pic, I have info they don't. I can that may be urgent for them. That doesn't mean it's urgent for the organization. And it might be what I have found a lot of times is that the peop when people are coming to me, and this is one of my challenges in my organization, is I tend to be the external regulator. So people keep bringing me these small to me feel like this is small. Why is this coming to me? It's not that the content is not why they're coming to me. They're coming to me because I support regulating them. And so I kept like referring them back to a policy or referring them back to something else and they kept coming and I said, I don't understand why this is happening and I can't get anything done. I had to look at I I had missed all of the things that happen interrelation relationally in that exchange. It's not my attention, it's that I'm providing this reassurance or regulation. I didn't realize I was doing it, although I have since learned I I do that automatically. That's a thing for me to change or to make overt or to I I don't know it but it's a contextual variable. I hadn't realized and now that right now I see the picture differently. So I think it's it's a little of that and and it's more isn't better, better is better. So if every day is a fire, the f my first step is I'd like tomorrow to be a day where I just see smoke. It's not I want tomorrow to be smooth. See it's that same thing. What gets in our we're we're picking goals that are not Take the that goal of tomorrow being better and meaning no fires tells me we are not holding all of our contextual variables as relevant. B otherwise I would never write a goal for a kiddo who has no vocal verbal language that they are going to recite their ABCs tomorrow. That's what that goal is that we just said that that every day is a fire and now tomorrow I want to be better. You set we set ourselves up because we're not being realistic. That's the accuracy, right? We gotta get accurate. Yeah. Accuracy is safety because we can trust it. It's it's true. We're all looking at it that way. Does that make sense? It feels very meta to talk about, which is why I think putting it on paper makes it concrete. Now we've got the action. Now I know what to do with this data when I see the data. When I'm talking about it nebulous, there's too many places it can go. Which is a a a learner, right? It's a treatment plan. You don't pick a million friggin' goals. We pick the ones that are most socially significant for them, which is taking into account all of their learning history and contextual variables. We know how to the it's the same for us. speaker-1: Yeah. It's so funny when you were saying that in my mind, my my example was like, yeah, it's like it's like a a child who's non vocal and your then your goal is that he's gonna tax ten items tomorrow, right? Like you know, and and and so and I even, you know I don't want to say it like that, but I I yeah. So is it Okay, is it a generalization like issue for like us for like a leader who who is able to plan beautifully, assess the perfect, beautiful goals for a four-year-old, developmentally appropriate, no, all the steps, gorgeous, right? Quality, excellent. But then we are trying to take that and use it for like a new B C B A or a an RBT or even a I'm in staff or someone where we're feeling all that disconnection. Is it I'm sure it's multiple things. you know, generalization, understanding like the skill sets that we even want them to to be able to to produce. yeah, like speaker-0: No, I think it's that updating the model. Okay. Because if I actually saw you, my admin as a human and held all of your contextual variables as relevant, I would do the same as I did for that learner and make a beautiful plan. So it's again not believing that the other person is who they're saying they are, right? Like it's thinking I know more about who you are than you are. No, no. That might be where I want you to be. But she's not there. So how much time do I want to spend in that? It's not helpful. This is where you are. And I think because we do this to others, it's taught that way. No, this is these are, and that's my whole I can't say beef. I don't know the right word anymore. But it's like this is my challenge with our profession right now, is that the calls coming from inside the house, I said earlier, like this is our science. But I think we've taught our profession how to be pr autism providers instead of teaching behavior analysis, because behavior analysis is you collect the data, you you are constantly up it's a science, so you're constantly updating your model. Your model comes from the data. Your model is how we are case conceptualizing other humans. And so we are constantly updating the do you see what I do you see the break? speaker-1: Yeah, I I I I see the connection. I'm I'm really interested to see if those of you I'm just gonna pause and check in with our listeners. I would just I would love to hear how this r is resonating for you, what questions you have. It if it's speaker-0: Is it speaker-1: making any sense to you, right? Like what moments are you having? What thoughts are you having right now? I'd really love to hear. So if you if you would love to call in To our hotline. I really don't mean this as a plug. I mean this as a connection because I really want to know what you guys have to say. Like comment on the reels and that and the podcast that you're listening to because this, I would love to, if anyone wants to join a panel, if any a group of you guys want to get on and have a conversation about this, I would love to because it does make sense to me. It is all coming together, but this is like decades of and and conversations and and all these little pieces are starting to make sense and add up to me. And yet I still we were talking before, like I'm still trying to figure out how what to do with it and how to share speaker-0: Share it. Yeah. That's the part of it too, right? So if what we're saying, because I am feeling like I didn't use language accurately and I didn't, when you said is it a generalization issue? And I said no, it is, but it's because we don't actually know behavior analysis. Right. So yes, because we don't actually know it, we are not generalizing it because you we don't know it. We know it in one application. So we've actually memorized the pro the pr the behaviors that go in a profession, not the repertoire that goes with the science. And that's why I think I'm starting to feel that this is what's happening within the f profession and why it's hard has been so difficult for me because I don't I can't separate. I I was not trained that way. and I think I wonder if that's how maybe other folks training was when we're seeing more of this split between like newer clinicians and like you know, seasoned older clinicians, there's a difference in some of the training and there's less of us, right, who've been certified longer now. So we are in the minority. And right, the word minority there's I don't know exactly where it comes from, but I do like words. I it's about having less being a smaller group and being an out group with less power in in s in some ways, because there's less of you. and so I think it's also That's part of me knowing my context. That now matters more in 2026 than it did in 2010 when I was certified. And so it's updating that model, which is a science. A science is always updating our models and our theories based on new data. And I I don't know that we've done that and that shows up in every way. Does this connect to the what to do? We do know within the science. And I think it's going back to that science and self, really looking at not trying to find a strategy to plug and play because as the model updates, that strategy won't work potentially. It's really about understanding the the zoom out, the bigger picture, always being learning. it's okay to be wrong. This is never going to be done. You're not going to come up with a self-care plan today that's going to be your go to. It's this works today. So if I'm not teaching you this the process, right? Assess, intervene, monitor, you are always going to be dependent on me because I haven't taught you how to address it when it comes up next, which I think is the parallel process of how we're teaching BCBAs and RBTs, right? Follow this exactly. But then when something changes and you don't think constants change, then we don't know what to do because we haven't actually taught We've taught following steps, not the actual goal. Be firm about your goal, but flexible how you get there. speaker-2: Yeah, we've taught people, but we haven't taught them how to learn, right? And to be curious and to understand. I think that that is when I find myself in curiosity, the shame kind of drops away, the blame kind of drops away. okay. This is here now, right? Like it's a, I was doing Jujitsu there for a while and I found myself, you know, I would get into a hole that didn't like and I'm like, I should have done this. I should have done that. And he's like, if you're there, you're not here, right? You're not figuring out, how do I get out of this? How do I move my body so that I can get out of this thing that I hate? Right. And if I'm stuck in the hate, how it's your fault, it's my fault. It's right. And I think that like people find themselves. Cause it's easier to be honest, at least for me, right? I'd much rather say you're awful, Steven, than kind of look at the problem and say, how can I do this differently next time? So it's just my go-to thing, right? I think that that's something that I find myself in. But when you're stuck in that, it's really hard to get out and it is, you have to be okay with being there. I think that's really the first step. speaker-1: Being okay with being uncomfortable. my gosh, that's the hard one. speaker-2: Because until you're that- speaker-0: That's called distress tolerance. And DBT Dialectic Behavior Therapy has tons of strategies about how to be how to get increase your distress tolerance. That's also what we need to be teaching our little learners, right? Because life is hard. I only know I can do hard things because I've lived through some really hard things and I didn't die. So I know I can do that. And when we jump in to rescue someone, they don't learn that. And right. So we it it's I I tell my staff, I'll let you stumble. I'm not gonna let you hit the dirt. I am going to let you trip a little bit, but I will not let you hit the dirt. And I have to let you trip because that's when you're gonna learn, right? That's when your the learning occurs, the growth. And so I I I think it's really like I was even thinking when you had said, you know, how do we what do we what do we Do what do we tell? How do we support the owners? It's it so matters on the individual context that by offering suggestions, I'm participating in the same negative feedback loop. Because then someone's gonna try, it's not gonna work. And then the story we tell ourselves is, see, I'm so effed up that didn't even work, or Dr. Breaker does no shit, because that didn't work for me. Well, no, that's being committed. That's I need to be able to say, I want folks to feel better, and I'm feeling compelled to want to give suggestions. I know that in this moment that is for me. Because it's uncomfortable for me to not be able to offer help because I know how hard that is. I am in this moment unable to be effective then because I have just named I'm focused on me. Doesn't mean I'm a bad person or a bad clinician. It actually means the opposite that I'm self-aware. And so I'm less likely to do harm in this moment because I'm updating the model as we're talking. I got uncomfortable. That now matters. Becca, you noticed it. Take that into account and choose differently. speaker-2: Right. Yeah, I often call this mighty mouse syndrome, right? Where you want to go in and save the day because it does feel good, right? But you're you're doing it for yourself. Like, let's let's be honest, right? And so if you can't be honest about your uncomfortable with the possibility that an outcome may not be to the expectation or the level that you are wanting at this moment in time, right? And that goes as a leader, you have to allow your systems to kind of bend and break a little bit. Otherwise you'll never know if they're effective or not. speaker-0: Stress test. That's why I love I think I shared we had two new kiddos start this week and a couple weeks ago I had a new team member start. Those are my favorite times because it's when all it's a stress test. Cracks and fractures show up. I get excited because it means we can improve, because it shows me what Dr. Temple Grandin calls the unwritten social rules. We have them everywhere. At Delmar, one of the and and I will notice them because when I'm teaching to folks from paper. Then out if I'm wanting to add more, that shit needs to be in the paper, Becca. Right. Or it's, it says this, but we're not actually doing that. Yeah. Well, that's drift. That leads to a lack of feeling safe and secure because now if that exists in one process, what other ones does it exist in? Yes. But it's this constant updating of the model. Again, it's that sign, it's updating the model. It doesn't mean anything other than this can be more specific. And we have to do that for our little learners. Our big learners and ourselves. It's the same process. And I think the other thing that April I thought of that I that sort of went out my ear was why leaders do this is because of a history of reinforcement. I tell grad students this when you are a grad student, you polish a paper until it's perfect and you get an A. TriCare ain't never sent me a letter and said, Dr. Tang, this report was so good, we're gonna pay you more. Is better than perfect. So what happens is the context changes. We don't update the model and we perseverate on the behavior that's no longer a fit. So in the world, if you have four hours, you get it done in four hours, right? Four hours is what they're paying. If of course we need to do all of the prep up until then, which is you know learning to fluency. But what is perfect? It needs to be done, it needs to meet these criteria, and that's that. But this behavior repertoire of Perseverating and updating and editing indefinitely has been so highly reinforced in one context, grad school, that we are over applying it to this new context of being a professional. What happened there is we didn't update the model. We're still acting here like we're here, but we're not. It's the constant updating, is what's really it is is the foundation of all of that. And not because we're not bright. We're looking for heuristics, right? We're looking for shortcuts. At what cost. And so if we keep bumping up against those, I those aren't great shortcuts anymore. speaker-2: Yeah as a process engineer, right? This is something that i've noticed my entire career is like people want it to be complete, right? This thing. Okay, we'll always do it this way forever And it like and so people well, you know They'll sprint to get that thing done that policy done that procedure or whatever it is But then they fail to update it because things always change right things always and language is imperfect right like What I write down in this step may not be you you may not even Understand it or interpret it in that same way, right? So like yeah, I I think that there's a lot of assumptions in our trainings and our standards, right? even in our ethic like you look at facebook and like the the stuff that they talk about like that's definitely unethical and like all of these posts I think wait a second. I need a lot more information before I can You know, like this, I can't say that you said three sentences. I don't know. Right. Like there is a whole other story going on here and I want to know that story. And so like, yeah. Right. And so I think that like, is like, again, like some people aren't here and I totally get that. Right. You're not curious right now. You just need the bills to get paid. And so I could appreciate that. But when we can become curious about what is it in our system that is not connecting to a large percentage of our new staff or our existing staff, how can we change this? And I love when we had our company bringing on our new, especially new techs that didn't really have any experience in the field. You read my policies. Do these make sense? Where is the disconnect? Can you do what I'm expecting you to do or have I just missed an entire system? Like, and I think that that can be very helpful. And it shifts the perspective from I'm a bad person. I should have known this already to wow. Okay. Look at how we can improve this to make everyone's life better. Right. I don't know. That's just rambling. speaker-0: Think about our CPT code. Nine seven one five five is a protocol modification. That's what we're talking about. speaker-2: That's what, speaker-0: I and I don't say that like as a like we should know better. It's a we know how what is your process for nine seven one five five? Whatever that process is, speaker-2: right speaker-0: and if you don't have a process, cool. Maybe in this moment you're just now realizing you don't have a process. That's totally okay. Record the steps that you're doing five to ten times. Now you have a baseline. You can extract your process from the qualitative information, right? That that recorded words, we can turn that into a task analysis. You do have a process, it just isn't overt yet. Yes. We know how to do this, which is really cool. speaker-2: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I mean. I love working with BCB is because of that, right? Like this is what you do every day, right? And I guess for my opinion, there is that expectation that you should be able to do this with your staff, right? And, and not like, where is that breakdown of I can do this with a two year old or three year old, right? But I really like, you know, I hear this all the time. I don't I feel uncomfortable in parent training. I don't know how to work with a master's degree student and how to get them to do the things that we should be working on, right? Like that piece of it. And so where is that disconnect, right? And I think... speaker-0: That's that not knowing the science, right? Because if we were taught to follow a protocol, I only have an autism protocol. I was taught a scientific process, so I can apply it to a lot of things. So then we can say, okay, well, my first thing is I I actually don't think we're doing it that great for people with autism if we're not doing it the other way. Because we are going to a protocol that only has certain steps. What if they need a half step or a double step? That doesn't mean let's be rude to ourselves. It's about an accurate inventory, right? and and inventory is what we have and what we don't have. There's not a judgment about it. That's that conceptualization of self. And then let's start filling in those gaps. That's all. We're just teaching skills. speaker-2: Right, right, right. And again, if we can go back to the curiosity instead of you're a terrible, awful person because you don't know this one thing, right? Every day I'm learning something new, right? Like we started a billing company. I think it's a terrible idea. But like every day I'm like, wow, you have to do that too, right? Like it's just, so I can take that and I can, you know, punch myself in the gut and say, like, why didn't you know that? Or We can take it and say, okay, we're going to improve now, right? Like, I guess what, what, you know, what's speaker-0: It's growth mindset. speaker-2: the alternative, right? Like, am I going to just sit here and wallow in self pity, right? Or do I want to learn? And I don't know. Sometimes it's fun to wallow in self pity, I guess. Right. speaker-0: Important reasons for that. We gotta we have to feel your feelings till they're gone. You can't, right? Because the other part, and this is my sort of current challenge with nervous system regulation, the discussion about it is people keep talking about how do you downregulate is usually what they mean, even though you can up or downregulate. let me be very clear. Always trying to downregulate is avoidance. And let's call that that. If you're your nervous system should activate sometimes, and sometimes downregulate. that I think it's becoming buzzy to always talk about downregulating. That can be avoidance. Remember, it's function over form. We are uniquely informed in this. We need to use that same lens to look at or we can look at all things that way. And so how am I in this moment? I should up regulate I do need to increase activation if somebody comes in the front door or I see a fire. If I'm sitting here and I get an email I don't like I'm gonna upregulate a little bit. That's still a normal response. It's about being responsive. I go up when I need to go up and come down when I need to come down. It's a muscle, not always about down-regulating. And the reason I label that is because we started by talking about there's a lot of things happening in the world. There is reason that a lot of us are more activated. Telling ourselves calm down does not. speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: Just like if somebody tells me to calm down, that makes me feel a lot worse, right? Like, yeah, speaker-0: Genela. speaker-2: yeah. Just because you told me to do that, I'm going to do the exact opposite. speaker-1: Well being regulated doesn't mean being calm either. Like, right? Like you don't have like it's not and that was one of the things, like in my sometimes the way that my brain categorizes things, and like I had like I must be doing this wrong. Like I I had actually been pretty good at regulating myself for years and I did not realize it because I was expecting that regulation meant like almost no feeling. Yeah. speaker-2: No speaker-1: Like like and I was like, okay. Like once I started making those connections, I was like, well, this makes more sense. And so So yeah, like it doesn't s for those of you who may not have heard this, like regulate like being regulated, I think you you're the expert more in this, Becca, but it speaker-0: There's the activity. So if I'm outside at recess, I should be ram jamming. If I'm inside reading a book and I'm ram jamming, there's a mismatch. I need to downregulate, right? Versus if I'm taking a nap and I need to get up and go to jujutsu, I need to upregulate. So I need to get up and do some spins or kind of activate myself. It's always about responsiveness. And I even think that's kind of connected to what you both have said in different ways, different times about that. Trying to be done, right? We want to have a plan. So this is what I do every time. No, no, we have to update the model. There is no done. It's about what fits for this context. That is done. This moment is done, not this concept is done. speaker-2: Yes. Yeah. And I think some people like I know for myself, that was something I had to grieve. Right. Like, because there was that wish of like, man, you know, I was expecting this thing to be done forever. Right. And then coming to it's like, you know, I just learned that Santa Claus isn't real. Right. Like, it's like, you know, OK, this isn't true. I this is a core belief of mine. Right. And it's been shattered. Now we have to move on, right? So I think that there may have to be that for some people as well, right? Learning to be okay with, and going back to that, but being okay with your heart is broken because this thing was supposed to be done. speaker-0: Opens in another way because now that you know that you get to help create that for other people. And that wasn't an option before. Right. Right. So when we can remain regulated, our frontal lobe is online so we can see the downstream impacts of that. What does this open up for me? and I think a a challenge for me is that I don't see it as done. I get ex the process is what excites me. And so I have very likely been problematic to other people and didn't realize it like I've been invalidating or I've sure not I've skipped steps because I did not realize how different the way I think is until really the last handful of years. I had to update my model of that right now I know that about self so I need to check things a little differently and maybe make certain things overt but I didn't know I was different because it's hard to know I'm in it, I'm in the system, so I can't see it. Yes. So that's where things like therapy and feedback from others, right? If you tell me I hurt you, I I believe I don't I'm arguing with that. You I hurt you. It doesn't matter if I intended to or not, I did. And so I need to update my model with you for that, or say, Well, I'm not, I'm gonna keep hurting you. And then you get to decide what to do, right? With with the relationship. But this constant updating, that's what's so It's like that's what I love about this. And in that way, I didn't know kind of what you were talking about, Stephen, and where I think I've I feel confident I've made missteps. it has really been a breakthrough for me that wouldn't be for somebody else because that's my context, right? That has been a huge shift for me. Is like, people might struggle with that. Man, I bet I moved so and so on too fast, or I bet I such and such. And it doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong. It's about knowing my tint. I now have a better understanding of what tint my glasses are, which impacts you. And because you matter, because you're a human and you have value, I'm not going to hurt. I don't want to hurt you. So I must continue to update my model human to human, but especially owner to employee, BCB A to RBT, BCB A to B. pa to pati to kiddo, BCBA to parent, parent to kiddo. Like the same process applies to all of us. So there's not like when you learn this the process or the system, you can apply it. speaker-2: Yes, yes, and I feel like that that is the disconnect right like there is Like it seems obvious to me that you can general like this you can do this anywhere right like this amazing thing like I Wow, this is such an amazing tool and you can you can literally do this wherever you want and and like getting that getting stuck not being able to move it to another place is where I'm kind of so like what do you do then right like okay you notice Okay, I I for whatever reason i'm here. I cannot generalize this to employees to parents to My family right? Whatever it is like what is the next step like is there a course that you take? there a mentor you should get is there like what what do you do? speaker-1: And yeah. speaker-0: Right. And and it depends on how you learn best, right? So we're gonna take that context. I I I'm a big believer in therapy, obviously as a psychologist. there is nothing like therapy. It's fifty minutes every week where somebody is only focused on you. Nothing matters but your context. And if you don't feel that way sitting with your therapist, get a new one. Yeah. Right? That matters. and there are things like going back to the literature because I think this is why folks are struggling to get out of autism services as B C B A's, because we don't actually know our science well enough to market ourselves right to show how we can do apply what we can do elsewhere because we don't actually have this right. And so getting back to the science, not that not and again, not just ABA, but behavior analysis is bigger than ABA, right? So do we go back to some behavior and actually let me back it up. First we need to say, I may not know the things that I think I know. speaker-2: I everybody should be able to rightly and I'm using should but like really seriously, right? Like I know about like, you know, my ignorance is infinitely larger than my actual knowledge base, right? Like, and so I think that, yeah, and that is hard for people to come to terms with, but yeah, I agree, yeah. speaker-0: So starting there and then, you know, I I could see going to behavior analytic literature that is not about autism, because as soon as it's close enough to what you do work-wise, the neurons that fire together wire together. You're gonna go and work brain, you're gonna get in your own way. No, I mean go to the behavior analytic literature, if this is how you learn, and and kind of get into that. I I think, you know, therapy, I think getting a mentor, a mentor and not somebody. Just who does ABA well. I because what we're looking at here is like a like life coaching type mentorship, like teaching, you can get a behavior analytic mentor, but be really clear what you're looking for, right? It's it's not about being a better BCBA and insurance funded autism clinics. I want to better understand the science of this so I can apply it elsewhere. So I probably, and this may be by I would look at folks who are dually sort of who are. BCBAs and something else. I am obviously skewed towards BCBA psychologist because I think psychology teaches you about self and human development. And then ABA, I'm a behaviorally oriented psychologist. That doesn't mean that's the only way to go. And SLPs B C B A is gonna probably struggle in some way, right? Their content area is speech and language, which still shows different application. and it might even be not a BCBA, like a a behaviorally oriented psychologist, somebody who does act, right? Acceptance and commitment therapy. They are a person who does DBT or Act is going to be behaviorally oriented because those theories, which are part of behaviorism, which came from psychology, they are behaviorally oriented humans. You can be a behavior analyst without BCBA after your name. That's how that's how it was when I came up, right? We all got the I got the B C B A years after I finished the courses because there was actually a like There's insurance and and jobs tied to it. But I've always been a behavior analyst because I've always been an analyst, right? And so for better for worse. So I think it there's a ton of ways. It really depends on each person's where do you gauge that you are, where do you feel comfortable, right? Learning from literature independently might. be a better starting point for someone who might feel more shame or uncertainty or doesn't have therapy experience for somebody else who has been in therapy that might feel like an easier access ramp. It it just it it super depends. but there are there are lots of options. and the bonus is it helps you individually in your own world and it might also open up career options, right? If you're looking how to you you may not want to do autism service or you're wanting to move into like an ops p an operations position or a quality assurance position. When you know that process, you're applying that to all of these different positions. So it's sort of like you get it's like a BOGO. It'll it'll help you in your personal life and that will help you as a leader, a business owner, a clinician, kind of whatever we're we're doing. speaker-2: Yeah, yeah, I guess so like and know, was we were talking to alison How do you say more? Yeah, and and you know, I brought this up but like the bacb came out a while back and said that unrestricted hours only count if it if it's going towards an active client that you're working with and and like that was I and I think you know, she may have opened my eyes a little bit about like what What is a client like let's define client a little bit better. but like that kind of it almost in It kind of limits your scope, right? Because if it's only the If my only clients are two-year-olds three-year-olds And that's all I can learn about in my unrestricted hours. How do I grow? To generalize the skills. Does that does that make sense? speaker-0: We have the so a couple of thoughts. One, it's always been that way. It's that our scope of client has gotten narrower. And if I'm honest, it's because our performance has gotten narrower. I mean, look at all the data out there. We've needed to have the reins pulled back on us. It's our own action. So we do need to be corraled a bit better, because we have the potential to do harm when there's right this power difference. So that's my first part. And that's not good, bad. I you know, it just is. Yeah. the other piece I think is that when we don't really understand the science, we can't we're not doing a great job applying right as I'm learning, I'm you know, applying it just with this population, but I don't actually know what I'm I'm memorizing protocols. So I do have to have a narrower range until I better understand what the process the science is, and that comes from supervision. Our the most expensive thing we do here is our graduate is is supervision. I don't have a limit on the percentage. You get what you need. I have to be clear, that significantly impacts my profit. Sure. And I've gone months without paying myself because for me, the there's privilege there, right? I had savings because the staff need the supervision they need in order to not do harm to the kids and to perform at the level that I have set as our our expectation. I have to provide that. I have to teach it till they get it, not to a prescribed set amount. That's that updating the model. So when I see a l a big learner needs help more, my choices are provide it or and you know, accommodate downstream as needed, or not, and then be prepared for the downstream impacts. The downstream's gonna happen. I would rather pay for it sooner than later, right? I'd rather pay the Extra amount now, then see how it's gonna kind of carry out. And so our limitation in the that client is a demonstrates our limited understanding of what we do, which means we should have a narrower scope until we can better see that I can apply this in all these ways. Then I I'm showing more awareness, which means I'm less likely to do harm. I'm showing an increased understanding of. The science, which means I can apply it, I can generalize it more safely, more easily. I'm less of a liability to you as a supervisor. You can open the doors a little like let out the lead a bit, but it's so expensive. And I don't think that's the experience that folks are having in supervision. It's hurry and sign off on hours. That does not produce a scientist. That produces somebody who can follow a protocol. And then when something changes, they don't know what to do. We are either It's Doctor Tyra Sellers talk about are we creating zombies or unicorns? It takes a hell of a lot more to create a a unicorn. We gotta be able to pay that price or or pay for the speaker-2: You're gonna pay for it somewhere, right? Like, and it's, yeah. speaker-0: And we will all pay because we're all in this together. We are humaning on a rock that's flying through the air. We are in this together. You cannot escape the downstream impacts of my behavior, for better or for worse. And in that way, I care about you because we are all in community. I also care about me. So holding, you know, holding you to a standard or not allowing, you know, you in a certain area with me. That's how I take care of. Me, that's how we all impact change by upholding what we think is important. And in that way, each of us has so much power. And that is not a downer to me. Like that is infinite possibility. We're limited only by our creativity and our understanding. That's amazing. That means it's limitless. So if you're feeling stuck, that's something we created here as a and I I do it too. It's it's much easier to talk about for somebody else. That's what I remind myself, is like I'm I just can't see it yet. I'm not stuck. speaker-2: Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a there's always a solution. Yeah. speaker-0: Maybe that's a group you guys offer to your to your like leaders and your business owners is like, how do we get back to back to basics to back up yourself or something, right? Like let's revisit the science and instead of applying it to others or whatever, let's let's apply it not to somebody with autism. It's not allowed. Autism can't be discussed in this like group or whatever. speaker-1: Yeah. yeah, that thought was already there and I already wrote a note to email you about it. speaker-0: It's it's life changing. It helps with parenting, with yes, you know, your animals, myself. Like I when I run out of shampoo, I have to put it in the most inconvenient place, which is in the middle of the kitchen floor, or else I won't remember I'm out of shampoo until I'm in the shower next and I don't have it. I know that about self because I've done my case conceptualization. I have to get in my own way in the future to make sure I do that. That's behavior analysis. I'm a Creating an environment that increases the eliciting of me buying shampoo, not getting in the shower without it again. Nobody taught me that protocol, but I know the process, so I just have to think creatively about it. speaker-2: we have endless opportunity to get it, you know, to perfect the model as things change, right? Yeah. speaker-1: Improve. Improve. Update. Yeah. You said perfect. I got like it's speaker-2: paper fact I apologize speaker-1: not gonna be perfect. Yeah. To improve, to update. I love the update the system. The update, right? Like there's no shame in updating. Like speaker-2: I mean, I mean, talk to Apple and Microsoft when they send me an update is not perfect. It is not perfect. speaker-0: And neither am I when I'm updating a model. speaker-2: And then where are my apps? Everything's changed. What's going on? Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: You just avoid it until your phone is a brick and your husband takes you. speaker-2: There you go. speaker-0: To know about self. Like body doubling probably works well for you, right? But I wouldn't suggest that to somebody else. It's it's up it's the more we are curious, the more we learn and the better able we are to to meet the other person, including self, because self is a person as well. speaker-2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. speaker-0: I love spending time with you guys. speaker-2: For sure, yeah, that's awesome. speaker-1: I love spending time with you too. And I thank you so much for your time and your your willingness to come have these conversations on air because I think they're great. I I think they could they could help someone. If they help one person, right? But I I think it's it's worth it, right? And you know what? It helps me. Yeah. speaker-2: Yeah, like I am selfish about these, but I just like to have conversations, right? If it helps somebody else, that's great. speaker-0: Been thinking about how because people may struggle to case conceptualize self and I have an idea of like a form, so I'm gonna create that and send it to you all that with your folks. Cause again, if we think about what is a task analysis, we have to start at the right point. So if people hear that and they're like, I kind of get it, but then you sit down to do it and you don't know where to start. The most intimidating thing in the world is a blank piece of paper. So I think of a scaffold and I can think of some ways. that I can structure something that might be helpful so that we're giving folks like a leg up, right? speaker-2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. speaker-0: Let me throw you a buoy, not a brick, when you're when you're saying you're struggling, I hear you. I hear that you're struggling. And now we you know, yes. speaker-2: Yeah, and I think that that is like a theme that we hear a lot, right? Is just, don't know how to get out of, I'm just, I'm, I am stuck, right? And that's an awful feeling to have on top of being in the situation. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: Cool. All right. Well I appreciate that that that little step up that you'll provide though because speaker-0: Saying it here makes sure I'll do it. I speaker-2: There you go. speaker-0: the idea, which means I know I'm gonna do it when we end. And so I speaker-1: Same C's. Yep. speaker-0: I know what I need to do to make sure it happens. So I just did it. That's updating the model. speaker-1: Nice. I love it. I love it. All speaker-0: Thank you again. speaker-1: right. Well, everyone listening, thank you for spending time with us. Thank you for listening. As I already mentioned earlier, let us know how this how this resonates. Reach out to us if you need anything, if you need any help, if this has gotten you your piqued your curiosity and you wanna you wanna talk about it further, you know, reach out. all right. Well, I hope everyone has an amazing week and we'll see you next time. speaker-2: See ya.