Latest / 4-Freedom Podcast / 172. Fundamental Footprints - The Academic Powerhouses - BJU & PCC

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172. Fundamental Footprints - The Academic Powerhouses - BJU & PCC · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:07
We want to begin our episode today with a couple of personal
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testimonies from PCC and BJU. The first one is going to be
0:17
from Micah Busi. This is his words.
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I grew up in a faculty and staff family of PCC from the 1990s to
0:28
twenty 10s, went to both PCA which is the Pensacola Christian
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Academy and Pensacola Christian College for all of my education
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prior to Med school. And I can honestly say that I
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received a quality Christian liberal arts education there at
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an affordable price which allowed me to graduate debt free
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from college. Can I honestly say that there
0:48
have been many people who sincerely love God and are
0:51
passionate about raising the next generation to serve God in
0:54
whatever career field they entered next?
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Now for the bad. The Hortons did create a very
1:00
legalistic environment, mostly adapted from their Bob Jones
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University background, in which separate separation from the
1:08
world and purity culture were taken to the extremes.
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There were the supreme authority of all students, faculty and
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staff members, and it was important to remember that
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obedience to God meant subjecting yourself to their
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authority. All staff were required to sign
1:24
a handbook every year for employment, which stipulated
1:27
strict rules for how staff members had lived both at work
1:31
and elsewhere. Examples included mandatory
1:34
dress code for everything from shopping to dining out.
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For example, men had to wear long non denim slacks if
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shopping anywhere except the hardware store.
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Limitations on TV or home viewing.
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Video viewing only things rated G were permitted until around
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2010 when PG was also permitted. Strict music standards which
1:55
prohibited the majority of Christian music.
1:58
The King James only Bible translation usage based on their
2:01
belief that the Texas Receptus was inspired, preserved, and
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fallible Word of God, and the King James Version was the only
2:08
reliable translation from the TR.
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Toxic purity culture teaching were rampant and the rules
2:14
reflected as such. For instance, women had strict
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dress codes to preserve PCCs definition of modesty, and it
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taught that women were responsible for not tempting men
2:25
through immodest stress. Unmarried males and females were
2:29
forbidden from any touching of each other unless they were
2:33
relatives, and I could probably count on one hand the number of
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times I had touched a female in my life by the time I graduated
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college. To be fair, I never knew a
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single person who had a pregnancy out of wedlock, but I
2:47
found their rules to be extremely harmful to developing
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a healthy Christian view of sexuality.
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The campus church at PCC was the required church for all
2:57
employees and college students, and it was strictly controlled
3:00
by the Hortons. Miss Horton approved all music
3:03
which was to be performed for many years, and Doctor Horton
3:07
ultimately controlled all major church decisions, including the
3:11
pastors. When a pastor left or was fired,
3:14
a new one was needed. A member had no input of the
3:19
replacement. Following Doctor Hortman's
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retirement in 2012, Doctor Shoemaker was appointed the new
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president and in his personal opinion, Micah's personal
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opinion has been doing a excellent job slowly weaning the
3:32
college away from its hyper least legalistic ways.
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The campus church is now a completely separate entity from
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the college under leadership of its pastor, although attendance
3:42
there is still mandatory with attendance checks performed
3:46
weekly. The dress and appearance code
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has been significantly relaxed. Students have much more freedom
3:52
with their entertainment options and are giving much more adult
3:55
freedom than I had, such as abandoning the strict 11:00
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bedtime. Even the music standards have
4:01
seemed to be relaxed in practice, even if on paper they
4:06
seem to be the same. For instance, multiple Christian
4:10
contemporary Christian music artist worship songs
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arrangements have been featured on the college's latest Bible
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College album, albeit with no drum set or electric guitars.
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Overall, there are many things I would have changed and still
4:24
would change, but I had a great education there, met some
4:28
amazing Christian friends, and learned to love God and His
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Word. This next testimonial comes from
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Audrey Coats. I could not go off campus for
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dinner with my best friend from home.
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I was 19 and she was 22, but her boyfriend who was also a
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sophomore at BJU could 30 plus years later and I'm still salty
4:52
about that. I will add that I got a great
4:55
education there and was really thankful for the amazing
4:58
teachers. Many of them cared about me as
5:02
more than just a student and went out of their way to support
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me. Also, I heard a lot of great
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preaching and Bible teaching that stays with me to this day.
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The overprotective rules that did not help my spiritual growth
5:16
but did give me a bad attitude were very frustrating.
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I found my freedom in you. I found a joy I can't lose.
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And thank God it's true. You wrapped your arms around me
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and heaven broke through from the moment she found me.
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I found my freedom in it. Welcome to the Four Freedom
6:02
Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the
6:05
freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with
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everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James
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Seyfried and Brett Moore. Welcome back to the Full Freedom
6:18
podcast. What a great day it is to serve
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the Lord. Thank you for tuning in.
6:23
I want to thank all of our listeners over the last several
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weeks. We have received great support,
6:29
great response over this fundamental footprint series.
6:33
And then we're going to continue on in that later on where today
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we're talking about the academic giants BJU and Pensacola
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Christian College and excited about the episode that we have
6:45
lined up. Brett, we just came out of
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Mother's Day and we just came out of spending.
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I got to spend time with my mom. My mom came to to church this
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past week. She lives about an hour away
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from the church. And so her and my step Dr.
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Stepdad drove up and came to church and we went to lunch
7:04
afterwards and and hung out and I had a great Mother's Day,
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great service at the church. Attendance was up.
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We had got dedication with several children.
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We were dedicating to the Lord and just a wonderful time in the
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Lord's house. How have you been?
7:20
How are things going there with you in Mississippi?
7:24
Well, down here Mississippi, things are going pretty good.
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We had a great Mother's Day as well.
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We had some people out, but the same time we still had a good
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crowd and we had kids that, you know, we've got a lot of moms in
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our church. And so a lot of kids come to our
7:40
church to go to church with their moms.
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And then we had some church members that weren't here
7:45
because they were at another church with their mom.
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And but we had a great day. It was a good crowd.
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And we had our our children's church, which we just started.
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We start children's church on Easter and we're still keeping
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it going. And we had a good response from
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it afterward. I had parents come up to me and,
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and tell me how great they love that we had something for their
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kids and how they want to help and be workers.
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And that's encouraging. You know, you got parents coming
8:16
up saying, hey, I want to help in this, you know, because this
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is the future of our church. We're investing in, in, in the
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children. I'm super excited about it.
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And then things have just been going good.
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Now we recognize the oldest and the youngest mom that the normal
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things. We've got a offering this month
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for our crusade. We're taking an offering every
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Sunday this month because we've got an evangelistic crusade
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coming up in September with Alex McFarlane in our county and our
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association. And so, man, it was just a good
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Sunday. Love it.
8:54
Brett, did you deviate from your sermon series to preach on
8:59
mothers or or what did you preach on this week?
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You know, it's funny, we talked about this in our small group.
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I have the young adult, the, the college and career age guys,
9:12
people for my, my small group that I, that I leave.
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And we talked about how I don't deviate from my sermon series
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when it comes to Mother's Day. Father, I used to do that.
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I told him it was like years ago, when it's Mother's Day, I'm
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going to RIP on those moms and it's Father's Day.
9:30
I'm going to RIP on those, those dads.
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And one year I, I flipped it like, Oh, it's Mother's Day.
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So moms, I'm going to give you a rest.
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I'm the preach on the dads and then it came Father's Day and
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say, Dad, I'm going to give you a rest.
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I'm going to preach on the moms. I did that one year, but a few
9:46
years ago. I just, you know what?
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I'll mention something about Mother's Day or whatnot, but I
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just keep on preaching on whatever, whatever series I'm
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in. So I had just started the book
9:58
of Jonah. And so I just continued
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preaching on through through the book of Jonah.
10:03
And then we talked about it. The only time I deviate from
10:07
that is Easter and Christmas. Like Easter and Christmas all
10:13
set the series up to where by the time we get to Easter or by
10:17
the time we get to Christmas, it all come.
10:21
It all culminates in. So those are the only two
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Sundays of the year where I really kind of focused.
10:28
Sometimes I do Thanksgiving, to be honest.
10:31
I might do a Thanksgiving thing, but most of the time, not most
10:35
of the time. Even Thanksgiving, Mother's Day,
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Father's Day with the Arbor Day, Memorial Day, whatever day you
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want to say it is. I'm just going to keep on
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preaching on whatever series I'm in.
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I love it. Yep, I'm same way.
10:50
You know, I'm new to preaching every week year and a half now
10:53
in and I just decided when I got here, whatever series I'm in,
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I'm just going to continue on. And so Easter, Mother's Day, I
11:00
just, I'm preaching the book of Acts and just preaching through
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it. And so this this week was the
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end of Acts Chapter 9, which was Aeneas and Tabitha, the healing
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of those two from Peter. And so it was exciting to go
11:15
through that because it actually did line up to talk about
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Tabitha and how her legacy and she was a, you know, a maker of
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purple and linen and how she had died and the ladies from the
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area honored her and loved her and showed her legacy.
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So it did line up that I talked about a lady on Mother's Day,
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but it wasn't by playing it by any means.
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It was just the way the schedule fell.
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And so the Lord worked that out and it was a great segue into
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Mother's as well. But yeah, it's, it's, it's
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always exciting to see who, what people do and how they change
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and how they what, what they preach on and talk through on
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Mother's Day and those different fun holidays that we have.
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I tell you that talking about the book of Acts, one of these
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years I'm going to preach through the book.
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I'm going to do it. I'm going to start at this
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vision of me starting in January, going all the way
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through the December, spending the whole year in the book of
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Acts. I'm going to do it.
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But I have commitment issues when it comes to to things like
12:17
that. I don't like to stay in a series
12:19
more than four or five weeks and then I like to move on to
12:22
something else. So, but one of these years I'm
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going to pull it off and I'm going to do it.
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John asked me this week, he said, are you still on track?
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And I said, Lord willing, I will.
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I'm going to take the summer off.
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We're going to preach through the Psalms and summer.
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I enjoy doing that series and and having a break in the
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summertime. And then we'll pick back up with
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the second-half of Acts with, with Paul going to the uttermost
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and preach to that the second-half of the year.
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And I will say I was, I was a little daunted about going
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through the book of Acts. You know, it's a big book,
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several, you know, 20 something chapters.
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And so just preaching through that.
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I was a little leery and hesitant, but it's moved real
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well the way I've done it. And the, you know, when you go
13:08
through the book of Acts, a lot of it is narrative storytelling.
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And so it's not a lot of like dragging verse by verse the way
13:17
sometimes you go through, like when I went through the 1st
13:19
Corinthians 13, you know, there was I, I spent like 15 messages
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on 15 verses. And so it was a verse or even a
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couple of words that I preached on at that time.
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So it was a little more daunting.
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This when it flows a little better.
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I'm taking bigger portions this week.
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I'm preaching through 48 verses. It's it's one story through
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chapter 10. So it's just the way the, the
13:45
narrative flow. So it's been fun.
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I've I've really enjoyed it. I think our people have really
13:50
enjoyed it. I've got a lot of great
13:51
response. But yeah, I was sort of the same
13:54
way you, this is a big book. It's a big daunting task, You
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know, how do we break this down? How do we go through it?
14:00
And so I've I've really enjoyed it.
14:03
So. But Brett, we are at the time of
14:06
this release of the recording, man, we're 24 days from being
14:10
able to see each other face to face.
14:13
We'll be in Dallas. It's going to be an awesome
14:15
time. We've got some great lineups of,
14:18
of meetups that we're going to be doing some, some get
14:21
togethers in the evenings and we're, we're going to have some,
14:24
some, some cigars to hand out from our for freedom cigar line
14:28
that we're going to be giving out while we're down there.
14:31
Daniel Wynn, Marcus Merritt, some of these guys have reached
14:35
out to us and we've got some lunches lined up, some dinners
14:38
lined up. It I, I am so excited about the
14:41
convention about some of the different things that are going
14:44
to be going on. I'm think I'm more excited about
14:46
just hanging out and, and getting away for a couple of
14:49
days. For me, it's going to be like 14
14:51
days that I'm going to be away from the house and spending a
14:55
week of vacation beforehand and just enjoying time with my
14:58
family. We're going to the Dallas
15:00
Cowboys Stadium, a tour of the stadium.
15:03
But we man, we are, we're just excited about getting over to
15:06
Dallas and been with with people.
15:10
And so we hope that if you're in that area, you'll reach out to
15:12
us. Got a guy that had reached out
15:15
to me. He's from Allen, TX, which is
15:18
just right beside McKinney. We're going to be getting
15:20
together and just reached out to me, the podcast.
15:24
And man, we have appreciated all the comments and feedback we've
15:27
gotten recently. And so hopefully you'll be there
15:30
in Dallas or maybe you're in the area and you'd like to meet up
15:32
with us. Let us know.
15:34
Shoot us a direct message, reach out to us on a phone call.
15:37
We'd love to meet up and be together with you.
15:42
We are also still going to Israel.
15:45
That's still the plan. We are, we've got our our trip
15:48
settled, we've got our dates, our website is up and we want
15:51
you to come with us. And I guarantee that if you do
15:55
decide you want to come to Israel, that'll be one of the
15:58
best decisions of your life. It'll be a trip that you never,
16:00
ever forget. You read your Bible, it'll it'll
16:04
come to life. It'll go from black and white to
16:07
full color. These are places, historical
16:09
places that you read about in the Old Testament.
16:12
You can go stand where David fought Goliath.
16:15
You can stand where Elijah preached to the prophets of
16:20
Baal. Me and me and Jane just stood
16:21
there. And you can come and experience
16:24
that with us. It is safe.
16:26
It's one of the safest times to go to Israel is right now.
16:31
And so look, your registration is $450 until we want you to
16:35
come on, pay registration fee, see the pavement schedule over
16:41
the next year. You can, you can get that paid
16:43
down and it's a really good price.
16:46
Listen, it's 4500 all in per person, but that's really the
16:52
one of the best prices you're going to find going to Israel.
16:55
These trips they run, they run more than that.
16:58
Some of them run up to $10,000 a person.
17:01
And so this is a really good deal, really good price.
17:03
And so if you're interested in coming to Israel with us, we
17:07
would encourage you to come with us.
17:09
And we're going to have a good, we're going to have a good time
17:12
in the holy man. Absolutely, man, I'm so excited
17:14
about it. I can't wait.
17:15
I can't wait to be back there with you and with some of our
17:19
friends that have signed up. It's going to be an awesome
17:21
time. We hope you come quick way for
17:24
you to support the podcast. Many people ask, hey, how can we
17:26
can support? We don't do Patreon.
17:29
We don't do any of those things. We want to provide you with some
17:32
great cigars and some great things there.
17:34
So if you want to support our cigar page, you can go to that
17:38
at 1689 Cigars Back Slash for Freedom, and you can get out
17:42
some great things there. We've got some fun things coming
17:45
up into the summer. We're in production of some
17:47
really cool items. But right now we've got 4 cigar
17:51
lines and you can go and check those out, grab you a couple.
17:54
We've got a sampler pack, we've got a 5 packs, we've got boxes
17:57
of 20. So we've got plenty of different
18:00
ways for you to do that with Father's Day coming up, honor
18:03
some of your dad's and and grab us some great sticks.
18:06
And in the same way, you're going to support the podcast and
18:08
help out in a great way. Speaking of supporting the
18:12
podcast, we were planning to go to G3 there in Georgia and we
18:19
had just been talking about it and some some horrible news came
18:23
out of G3. And praise Chapel.
18:27
Hope that you'll be praying for Josh Boyce.
18:30
He had some anonymous accounts and some anonymous emails and
18:34
some anonymous sub stack accounts that he was hosting and
18:38
slandering and, and, and just spreading rumors.
18:41
And you can read those reports. It's been out there, but just
18:45
horrible things that were said and done through that.
18:49
And he stepped down from the president of the ministry.
18:53
He's, I think he resigned from his church and just seeking
18:58
reconciliation, seeking some, some, some way of moving forward
19:04
to the grace of God. But by all that happening, there
19:07
were some people that he was slandering that were actually
19:10
speakers at the conference that he was hosting, which is wicked
19:16
to think about. And so they have decided to go
19:19
ahead and cancel the conference this year, take a year off and
19:23
restart that maybe next year or years in the future.
19:27
So that being said, we're not going to go to Georgia now that
19:30
I know of unless Brett just wants to go and hang out down
19:33
there. And I'd I'd be OK with that.
19:35
But September is not going to happen for G3.
19:38
We are looking at another possible conference or two to be
19:41
able to go to and be able to hang out and share some of the
19:45
information on our cigars. I have had experiences on
19:51
Twitter and I want to ask you about this and I don't know
19:55
greatest redemption, forgiveness.
19:56
I understand that and I'm for that and I want that for him.
20:00
But my experience of Anon accounts is there like the
20:05
lowest form of human existence just standing behind a keyboard.
20:09
Keyboard warriors. Just the the cowardice, I mean,
20:13
and just attack you when they're hiding behind their ammonitity.
20:19
And it's just, oh, I could can't stand I I quit engaging them.
20:23
Just like, dude, if you don't have the guts to show your face
20:26
and I just I don't care about anything you have to say.
20:30
And that's kind of been my experience with Anon accounts.
20:33
And so hearing this come out, it's so shocking because it's
20:38
beyond my comprehension why you would bring these plat, these
20:42
guys up on a platform and and then on one publicly and then go
20:48
behind their back and bash them online.
20:51
Oh man, I, I just don't get it. What are your thoughts on this?
20:55
I'm I'm the same boy. I, I think this, the social
20:58
media age that we live in is it can be used for good and a lot
21:02
of good, but man with the ability to create an anonymous
21:07
account and, and, and do things through that.
21:11
It's, it's my mind goes to one verse of scripture and I shared
21:15
it with you before. A double minded man is unstable
21:18
in all of his ways. And having an office account
21:21
where you're bashing or talking critically about other people
21:25
that you wouldn't do out in the open is the definition of a
21:29
double minded man. And then so we, we need to be
21:32
careful. We need to be careful of what
21:35
we're saying and how we're saying things with public
21:38
platforms, man, lawsuits and different things can happen, but
21:44
but what does that say for the cause of Christ when we can't
21:47
get along, when we can't talk face to face open?
21:50
When I've got a problem with a brother, I'm going to go to him
21:52
face to face and I'm just going to deal with it.
21:55
I'm not. If it loses the friendship, then
21:59
then it loses the friendship, but I'm going to go.
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I'm going to deal with it and talk about it face to face,
22:04
front and center, and just talk through things.
22:07
And I think we need to be men of character and we need to step up
22:11
and do the right thing. And it's just, it's just a
22:14
wicked, wicked world that we live.
22:15
In now. Now, I understand this is
22:17
personal for you because you've been running church Mccrudging
22:20
for years, right? Yeah, yeah.
22:22
I don't even know who that is. Well, I've spent some time as
22:26
IFP sermon clips myself, so yeah.
22:29
No, that's a joke. That's a joke.
22:30
You know, that was a fun story though.
22:32
When we were in Idaho and social media was coming out, me and I
22:36
was actually talking to my buddy Andrew Maddox.
22:39
He just graduated from, get this Brett.
22:42
He crammed A4 year degree into 21 years and I think he set a
22:47
record. He said it was a legendary to be
22:51
able to do that. Not many people will be able to
22:53
do that. But yeah, it took 21 years.
22:55
He finally graduated. Super proud of him.
22:58
But when we were in Idaho, we were playing around and he came
23:01
up with like a Deacon something. And so I came up with a fake
23:05
account and we would be like in staff meeting and he'd be like,
23:09
yeah, ran 25 buses this week, 400 people came to church for
23:15
our bus ministry. 380 of them accepted Christ.
23:19
We had our cattle, cattle bends out.
23:24
We're baptizing people and, and we would just put random like
23:27
weird fake stories up and, and people get this, Brett pastors
23:33
from the country would retweet it and reshare it like these
23:37
guys are doing great things. And it was just fun, crazy
23:40
things, made-up stories. And I asked him was like, hey,
23:44
do you still have that account? And he's like, no, dude, I don't
23:47
even know how to get to it. It may still be out there, but I
23:50
don't even know how to log in. I don't even remember how to log
23:52
in for it. I feel I need to make a
23:54
clarification here. I am not saying that all and non
23:58
accounts are horrible, like for instance the ISP sermon clips
24:03
and bad sermons. You know that though they're
24:07
doing the I think they're doing the Lord's work and they may
24:10
need anonymity for what they're doing.
24:12
I don't know who they are, but they may need anonymity for what
24:16
they're doing. And I got no problem with
24:19
accounts that just come on and parody stuff and make jokes and
24:23
have a good time. I got no problem with that.
24:27
It's the Anon accounts that this guy was running that come on
24:32
that just slander people and criticize for no reason.
24:36
Those are the ones that I have a problem with.
24:40
And I'm thankful that G3, again, I don't do a lot with G3.
24:45
I've had the opportunity to go to several conferences that I've
24:47
never been. But we were looking forward to
24:49
going this year. I was looking forward to hearing
24:52
HB and some of those other guys speak and preach.
24:56
But I am thankful that they didn't reveal the names of his
24:59
anonymous accounts because it would have, everyone would have
25:02
immediately went and, and looked them up and, and saw what was
25:06
done and said. And so to avoid even more
25:10
slander and abuse toward that, they didn't even mention them,
25:13
which I'm thankful for. Often times they would put a
25:16
statement out, not them, but other companies or things would
25:19
put a statement out and say these are the anonymous accounts
25:21
that he had, blah, blah, blah. These are the names.
25:24
And so I'm thankful they didn't do that because they're just
25:26
trying to alleviate more hurt and pain that was done from the
25:30
situation. Absolutely.
25:33
I think that's a wise move. That's a good thing, dude,
25:36
because you know what we're going to do the first thing we
25:38
hear. Oh, yeah, we go look it up.
25:40
Let me get on there, see what he's.
25:42
Saying see what he was doing and, and, and see what things.
25:44
So well, Brett, we've, we've had a great intro here.
25:47
We're going to jump into, we're doing a, a series that we're
25:51
calling the fundamental footprints and we've discussed
25:54
House Anderson and and Bob Gray and had a great interview last
25:58
week with James Spurgeon. I'm about halfway through with
26:00
his book and just, I'm, I'm laughing, I'm crying, I'm just
26:06
enjoying, I'm like jaw-dropping in some moments as I'm reading
26:10
through his book and I would send him a text and be like,
26:12
dude, I can relate 100% with where you're at.
26:16
And so we're, we're, we're discussing these institutions
26:19
that sort of shape the independent fundamental Baptist
26:23
movement and we're jumping into it for better or for worse.
26:28
And so we're discussing today two powerhouses.
26:32
Who are we talking about today, Brett?
26:34
So today we're going to turn our attention to two powerhouses
26:39
with very different tones, and it's Bob Jones University and
26:44
Pensacola Christian College Show.
26:47
So James, I want you to take us back.
26:51
Take us back to How did Bob Jones University get?
26:53
Started. Yeah, absolutely.
26:56
Let's just jump in there because that's a that's a big part Bob.
26:59
Bob Jones University was founded in 1927.
27:04
So it's it's got some years. It's coming up on its 100th year
27:07
anniversary. It it was established by an
27:10
evangelist named Bob Jones Senior.
27:13
And this is what he saw. He saw theological liberalism
27:16
begin to creep in to colleges and he decided I need a place.
27:21
I want a place that's going to preserve the Orthodox Christian
27:25
beliefs. And really what he wanted was a
27:28
place to promote holiness. And so this is sort of his
27:31
beginning of where we're at, of establishing Bob Jones
27:35
University. So it was it's kind of reaction
27:39
to what was going on in higher education at the time.
27:42
Absolutely, yeah. And, and what happened was from
27:46
the beginning, Bob Jones wasn't just a school.
27:50
It was really, it was a movement.
27:52
It was a movement of a place where he decided that he was
27:55
going to train in the academics. And and Bob Jones, it's a great
28:01
academic place. They are academically they're
28:05
they're up there with some of the best.
28:07
But he also wanted a place where he could be what he called
28:10
separated Christians. Now, when you say separation,
28:15
I'm assuming we're talking about intense separation.
28:19
Yeah, exactly. Just like our opening story with
28:22
a couple of people and, and we put this out there on social
28:25
media of, hey, give us some stories, give us some things
28:29
that your time and your experience.
28:31
I didn't go to Bob Jones. You didn't go to Bob Jones.
28:33
And so we're just trying to piece the puzzles together here.
28:37
And and it was intense as far as their dress code, the curfews,
28:42
the Chapel attendants, they had policies like their inter, their
28:47
infamous interracial dating ban. It was lifted.
28:52
It was there, but it was lifted until 2000 where they had a band
28:58
with you were of a different race.
29:00
You couldn't date someone else that was of a different race.
29:04
All the way up into the year 2000, I mean, and you know that
29:08
that caused a huge store, huge stir when George W Bush spoke
29:12
there during his presidential. Campaign, yeah.
29:17
And people are going to continue to talk about that.
29:21
And they, they, they denied it for a while, but eventually they
29:25
came out. And Bob Jones University is
29:27
since rebranded. It's updated its image, and it's
29:31
even softened some of its stance.
29:33
But the roots of it all run deep.
29:36
And that's where we begin to look at it and then talk about
29:39
it. And some may even ask, and I'm
29:41
trying to remember this off top of my head, Brett.
29:43
Some may even ask, you know what?
29:45
How does Bob Jones even really deal with the independent
29:48
fundamental Baptist? They weren't really independent
29:50
fundamental Baptist. They were separated.
29:52
And if I remember the story correctly, Bob Jones and Jack
29:58
Howes were both on the board, were a Bible translation, a new
30:04
Bible translation that was gonna come out, and then there was a
30:07
rift there and then they went their separate ways.
30:11
But there was some connection to Jack House and Bob Jones.
30:14
They were friends at one point until they began to disband and
30:19
and stop some of that friendship.
30:20
And I may have that a little different, but but if I remember
30:23
correctly, that's sort of the connection there.
30:25
And so, Brett, we're going to dig a little deeper into the
30:28
culture of Bob Jones, what kind of environment it created for
30:31
its students. Tell us a little bit about the
30:33
environment that was there and around for the students.
30:37
So think formal, think structured, think very, very
30:42
control. They're they're in some ways
30:45
there were and in some ways still are layers of rules meant
30:49
to foster discipline, and many found it pretty stifling.
30:54
The culture prioritize conformity and obedience over
30:59
expiration or grace. So as we look through that and
31:04
we're going to begin to talk to PCC in a minute, was it similar
31:09
to PCC in some ways or, or was it different?
31:12
What What were your thoughts there?
31:14
It was, but Bob Jones kind of leaned more intellectual.
31:18
They emphasized apologetics, the arts and even drama.
31:22
Unlike many other IFB schools, which you know, you say the word
31:26
drama, that was, you know, that was a bad word.
31:29
But Despite that, the culture discouraged dissent, questioning
31:33
authority, just raising the question.
31:36
You could be labeled as rebellious.
31:39
Yeah, but wasn't Bob Jones, was they also known for their
31:42
interstellar or their their insular in their leadership and
31:44
how how great it was? Well, for decades it was run by
31:48
Bob Jones, senior junior and then the third.
31:52
So leadership stayed pretty in house.
31:55
And as you know, that's kind of for this vein that's kind of a
31:59
standard thing for people to do. And, and what that did is it it
32:04
kind of created an echo chamber where critics were seen as
32:08
enemies and not reformers. That's that's interesting to
32:12
think about because it's that hierarchy of, you know, almost
32:16
Kingdom mentality, right, of the King's sons are going to be the
32:21
heirs and they're going to take over and no one's going to be
32:23
able to come in and change anything.
32:25
So it's like that's like a House of Anderson.
32:28
I mean, the plan was for his, for David to take the reins and
32:33
then and David just had problems and couldn't help himself.
32:37
And so what's the next best thing?
32:38
Jack Scott, He, he was the next, he was the next choice.
32:41
So we see this all the time. Absolutely.
32:44
But what about the student experience?
32:45
I know we weren't students there.
32:47
I know we didn't go there. I've got people in my church
32:50
that went to Bob Jones and we've we've talked to other people and
32:53
we're going to have a an interview in a couple of weeks
32:56
with someone who did an in depth study of Bob Jones.
32:59
But what have we learned as we've studied through the
33:02
student experience of Bob Jones? So as we've done our research,
33:07
we see that a lot of them felt spiritual, spiritually
33:12
manipulated, like their worthiness was tied to
33:15
performance. And those some had great
33:18
academic experiences. I mean, there were so many of
33:22
them that were left with spiritual wounds.
33:24
It took years to unpack and heal.
33:27
But you know, I want to shift gears now to PCC right before
33:33
we. Right before we shift gears,
33:35
Brett, I want to just mention about the Bob Jones side of it.
33:39
There's been a lot of cover up, a lot of spiritual abuse that
33:44
happened and even physical abuse that happened.
33:47
And there's what's called the Grace report, the VRACE Grace
33:51
report that came out back in 2014.
33:54
And we're going to have an in depth interview with Rebecca who
33:57
led the charge in that. And so we're not going to spend
34:00
a lot of time on that. We're going to spend more time
34:02
on Pensacola here in a minute. But if it's going to whet your
34:06
appetite per SE to do maybe some research and look into that and
34:11
be ready for that interview in just a couple of weeks.
34:14
And so, yeah, let's transition to PCC.
34:17
I when I was growing up and going to college, one of are the
34:22
choices that for college, there were three colleges that I was
34:28
looking at. I was looking at House Anderson,
34:30
I was looking at Crown. I was looking at Pensacola.
34:34
Pensacola was tempting to me because it was the closest one,
34:39
OK. And one of the things that we
34:42
knew about it was that was that it was accredited.
34:45
Well, that was from my pastor. That was a strike against it.
34:49
And strike one, it was accredited.
34:51
And of course, credit accreditation is the devil.
34:54
Strike two, it was a pair of church organization didn't have
34:57
a didn't have a home church. So that was another strike
35:01
against it. And then, you know, I guess my
35:03
pastor didn't like it. So that was strike three.
35:06
And so the Pensacola was one of the colleges that I was thinking
35:10
about going to. And what I got from our cold
35:13
open was like the academic side of it was really, really good.
35:18
And you know, from my perspective, coming into this
35:21
before we did our research, before we read the comments and
35:25
did the cold opens, I always knew that they were good on the
35:29
academic side. But we're going to shift gears
35:34
and talk about PCC and its origin story.
35:38
So, James, what can you tell us about the origin of PCC?
35:42
Yeah, so PCC was founded in 1974.
35:46
It's not super old. They're come.
35:48
They just celebrated their their 5050 years.
35:51
Is that 50 years, right, 50 years for from existence?
35:54
Yeah. So 51 years ago, they started by
35:57
Arland and Becca Horton, which if you've heard that you would
36:03
get the name Abeka, which is where that come from.
36:05
They were in Pensacola, FL. It grew quickly and mostly
36:10
because of the success of their homeschooling curriculum called
36:13
the Abeka Books. And now Brett, a fun, fun fact
36:17
about Abeka books is if you are, I believe it's east of the
36:22
Mississippi. So from Mississippi, the
36:24
Mississippi River to the east, they ship more Abeka books in
36:31
the east of the Mississippi then even Amazon does east of the
36:36
Mississippi. They're the largest shipping
36:39
organization for the last many, many years as they go through
36:45
that. Yeah.
36:46
You know, PCC was the engine behind that.
36:49
They were the engine behind Abeka and Abeka books.
36:53
The environment of PCC, it's intense and the people that I've
36:58
I've talked to that was from there were pretty intense as
37:01
well. I know my wife's school, she
37:05
was, she, she was part of the Bebeka curriculum.
37:10
And then a lot of the schools that she's taught at from since
37:13
then have been a part of the back of curriculum.
37:15
And so we, we, we're very familiar with that.
37:19
When I went to Bible college, Brett, just to let you know, I
37:22
was a public school kid and public school, we didn't teach
37:26
grammar. I didn't know grammar at all.
37:28
And so when we were part of that, the, the, the, the grammar
37:33
side of it, I got to college and they did the entrance exam and I
37:38
completely failed the basic English and I had to take basic
37:41
English first, which didn't even give me a credit.
37:44
And then I had to take English one O 1 because I was so far
37:48
behind. So a Becca in their rigor
37:50
standards was was pretty, was pretty good.
37:54
And some of the ways that it was intense was that everything was
37:59
monitored. You couldn't hold hands, you
38:03
couldn't listen to most music that was there, that was out
38:07
there, and even where you walked on campus was controlled.
38:11
Now we looked into this and you could actually get demerits for
38:15
the wrong socks. Is that right?
38:17
Absolutely. I've heard stories of people
38:18
that wore the wrong dress code, wore the wrong socks, and
38:22
because they didn't have the right socks on, they got the
38:25
merits. And so they have this demerit
38:27
system for all kinds of behavior.
38:30
And a lot of schools that use a Becca adopted this demerit
38:35
system. The school is highly regulated.
38:38
They want to keep students on a tight moral track.
38:42
And so Brett, let's let's begin to talk about the culture right
38:45
there, the culture of the daily life for students at PCC.
38:49
Now. Now, part of this has changed
38:51
over recent years and we'll jump into it, but but give us the the
38:55
idea of what a daily life would be.
38:57
So think about highly regulated. You could get expelled for
39:01
holding hands for attending non approved churches or even
39:06
watching movies like Braveheart, which is so hilarious because
39:11
that was a movie that got me in trouble at house.
39:15
Anderson. I went to an off campus house
39:18
and watched a Braveheart and I got caught and then the guy I
39:21
was with turned me in. And so never trust anybody, man.
39:25
It was crazy. But yeah, that's what that, you
39:28
know, you can expect that type of stuff in this environment.
39:32
Wow, that's wild, Brett. You know, I've, I've even heard
39:34
of students and, and maybe you've heard of this as well,
39:38
but students getting kicked out for reading books by authors
39:42
that the administration didn't approve of. 100% they had
39:46
something called the Pathway and it was a handbook detailing
39:49
everything from skirt length to how you interact socially and
39:54
it's all about outward compliance.
39:57
Wow. So.
39:58
So again, obedience equals godliness, rule following equals
40:03
righteousness. And that's sort of the, the
40:06
standard they kept, you know, learn students learn real quick
40:11
not to ask questions. And that's the, that's the
40:14
difficult part of that is, you know, Jesus welcomed questions.
40:19
Jesus wanted people to ask questions and he loved when his
40:23
disciples, when Thomas asked questions, when when Peter asked
40:26
questions, he welcomed it. He learned he saw that as a way
40:29
of growing. But this mentality at PCC and
40:33
even Bob Jones and Alison and even Bob Gray, they wanted you
40:37
to keep your heads down, not ask questions and just submit and
40:40
not worry about even going forward.
40:43
So. Go ahead.
40:45
PCC does have something that a lot of these churches, these
40:51
these legalistic colleges don't and they actually did offer
40:55
strong programs. So, James, can you tell us a
40:58
little bit about that? Absolutely.
41:00
That's one of the things that was a big draw for PCC because
41:04
they were accredited, because they were able to offer a higher
41:07
rigorous standard. They had a nursing program or
41:11
have a nursing program, education and teaching, law
41:15
degrees, business departments. They were top notch in their
41:20
facilities and they were able to offer things that a small Bible
41:24
college could not OfferUp until really Liberty.
41:28
Liberty changed the scene when you get to that point because
41:32
PCC was, I mean, you could go to PCC and you could be a lawyer
41:35
and you could graduate PCC law program and go out and practice
41:38
law. They were very high in their
41:40
educational standards. But James Mama Mama said
41:45
accreditation is the devil. Yeah, for for years they also
41:50
refused accreditation. Eventually they joined what was
41:53
called tracks, the TRACS program, and it's still not
41:58
regionally accredited, which means transferring credits and
42:01
and going to grad school outside of their network is difficult.
42:05
But they they eventually begin to go through that process.
42:08
So they isolate academically too, not just spiritually.
42:12
Yeah, that, that was the reasoning for biblical
42:15
separation. And the result was the bubble
42:18
mentality and this, you know, keeping you in the bubble.
42:21
My mind goes to that, that movie about the I think it was called
42:26
Bubble Boy, where the, the the kid had the IT was in a bubble
42:29
in a house because his mom didn't want to get germs and
42:32
told him that if he got germs, he would die and never had
42:35
physical contact with anyone. And then years later, like as a
42:39
teenager and a young adult, he thought he, the bubble got
42:44
broken and he thought he was going to die and then realized
42:48
that was all a lot. And that's sort of the, the
42:51
mentality shift of we keep people in a bubble.
42:54
And then they, you know, once he, he realized he could go and
42:57
touch people and be out in the world, he, he just went crazy.
43:00
It was almost an IFB mindset of, of how this was in the world.
43:05
So Brett, let's, let's continue on.
43:08
Let's talk about the leadership and the structure and maybe even
43:13
the lack of transparency at PCC. So it's very top down leadership
43:18
structure. The Hortons ran everything for
43:21
decades and now control is passed to a closed inner circle.
43:27
And so that's kind of that's kind of the the structure that
43:31
that it is. Was there any type of in our
43:34
research? Was there any type of student
43:36
representation or appeal process or any type of anything that the
43:41
students had to say in? No, none of that.
43:44
If you're accused of breaking a rule, you're at the mercy of the
43:47
system. No, no defense.
43:50
It's all authoritarian. So that kind of structure makes
43:55
it easy to have problems and hard for students to heal.
44:00
Exactly like there's, there's, there's no way you can appeal
44:04
that. It's just like, but there's
44:05
nothing you can do about it. We're going to go into kind of
44:10
the alumni and some of the trauma stories that we've heard,
44:13
and this leads us to didn't there's some heavier subjects
44:17
because there's a growing number of former PCC students sharing
44:21
stories of trauma. Yep, if you go to Reddit,
44:25
there's an entire Reddit thread on this, the Facebook group.
44:28
There's a Facebook group called Recovering from PCC and, and
44:33
even personal blogs and you'll find countless testimonies of
44:36
spiritual abuse, depression and isolation right when you are
44:41
very rarely even allowed to leave campus.
44:44
To leave campus. You've got to be, you've got to,
44:46
if you're a girl, you got to be in certain amount of groups.
44:49
I mean, you're in this isolation, you're on this island
44:52
that that can lead to some spiritual abuse and depression
44:56
because all you ever see is these four walls and you never
45:00
can leave. Even though you're in Pensacola,
45:02
even though you're right there on the beach, like a wonderful
45:06
getaway spot, right? You just feel isolated and alone
45:10
oftentimes. Why is it that so many of these
45:14
colleges and things like this, why do they disguise legalism as
45:18
holiness? Really, I think it's because
45:23
people came in already struggled, feeling lonely.
45:27
They left lonely. It was an easy way because they
45:30
were part of the Abeca system to go.
45:33
And the big thing that's missing, I would say is grace.
45:37
When grace is not there, loneliness is felt because grace
45:41
comes in and the grace of God comes in and we experience the
45:44
grace of the Holy Spirit. And grace was completely gone
45:48
and missing from it. And it left people feeling worse
45:52
than when they got there. Now, Brett, I, my youth pastor,
45:56
he graduated from PCC. My, my, the guy who followed
46:00
him, who's now the sheriff of, of Rowan County, he graduated
46:05
from PCC. And so there were some great
46:08
things that came out of that. I had some experience through
46:11
that, but I believe they would tell you as well.
46:14
Looking back, it was tough. It was hard, it was a difficult
46:19
time and going forward maybe I wouldn't send my kids there.
46:24
Now our our research indicates that people that left were
46:29
actually shunned not just by the school, but by the families and
46:34
the churches that sent them there.
46:36
Yeah, absolutely. This is the the spiritual pain
46:39
that's tied to the place and we need to take those stories
46:42
seriously. As I was talking to my wife
46:45
about champion and gospel light, she would tell me, she'd say,
46:48
James, you know, I was one of the kids that when someone would
46:53
come back from college or come back from after they graduated
46:57
and they'd show up to a basketball game and they'd be in
46:59
pants. We would be the ones that be
47:01
like old man, look at them. They they completely went to the
47:04
world. They they've left.
47:06
They're worldly, they're ungodly because they're wearing pants.
47:08
And she said, I think back and I think about the mindset that I
47:12
was in and I think about how I mislabeled them and isolated
47:18
them instead of reaching out and caring for them.
47:21
And then I see the way their path went because I was one of
47:24
the ones that shunned them and abandoned them and wouldn't talk
47:28
to them. A year later, we were in class
47:29
together. A year before that we were in
47:32
class together. But now I'm completely on the
47:34
other side and I'm abandoning them.
47:36
And think of the spiritual damage that's going to do to
47:41
someone when you can't even talk or hang out with them.
47:45
So, so Brett, let's step back a second and let's begin to talk
47:49
about both Bob Jones and PCC and how they emphasize separation.
47:54
And we have to ask the question, what are they separating from
47:58
and why? What is this and and what are
48:00
they separating from? So look, separation from the
48:04
world is biblical, yes. And you know what?
48:07
I would even take that statement a step further.
48:11
I would say separation from the sin of the world is biblical,
48:16
but it needs to be separation to Christ.
48:18
That is the goal. Yep.
48:21
And you know, if we're just avoiding sin without pursuing
48:25
Christ, I believe we're missing the heart of holiness.
48:28
Right. Real holiness doesn't hide.
48:31
It engages. It welcomes questions.
48:33
It loves people. Yeah, and you know, it's not
48:38
afraid of of the messy. Jesus went to the messy people.
48:43
Jesus went to the woman at the well.
48:45
Jesus was there when the woman that was caught in adultery.
48:49
Jesus went to the tax collectors.
48:51
Jesus went to messy people and he welcomed their mess into
48:55
where he was at. And he knew that when he met
48:59
them in their mess, he would be there to help pick the pieces up
49:03
and lead them in a way that was going to be glorifying to God.
49:07
And it was going to be great. Exactly.
49:11
And listen, through all this, we're not saying that every
49:14
student that went to these schools had a bad experience.
49:18
And you know, for some people, you may have went to the one of
49:20
these schools and it was like the best time of your life.
49:23
And so we're not saying that, you know, they had a bad
49:26
experience, but we're just trying to show all sides of
49:29
this. Yeah, absolutely.
49:30
Some graduated, got jobs, got married, moved on, began to live
49:35
a life and be contributing people to society.
49:38
And, and you know, as I shared my experience of some of those
49:41
people that were influential my life, they they didn't let the
49:45
isolation define who they were. Exactly.
49:49
Did the Did these institutions teach students to follow Jesus
49:54
or just to follow rules? And these are kind of the the
49:57
questions that we're asking. Yeah, but you know, a lot of
50:00
times they prepared people for a life of grace, a life on
50:04
mission, you know, the mission sending arm of PCC, and they
50:08
sent people all over the world to the mission program.
50:12
And yeah, there's a fear of conforming, but they did some
50:16
great things and they've helped some people out in a great way.
50:20
Exactly. And, and listen, if you went to
50:22
a place like this, you're, you're, you're, you're not
50:24
alone. You're not crazy.
50:27
Other people have, have been there too.
50:29
And we, we want you to know, we want you to know that there's
50:32
grace, there's healing. And Jesus is better than any
50:36
institution. Absolutely.
50:38
One thing I'll say that we didn't have quite in our notes,
50:42
but man, some of the things because PCC had the money and
50:48
the backing from Ibeka, man, their facility is top notch.
50:53
They've got like water parks and bowling alleys and they've got
50:57
things there for student life in campus.
51:00
Now. They didn't have it back then,
51:02
but now they've got it at PCC. That is, I mean, it's a top
51:05
notch facility and they're offering education that is so
51:09
well, one thing that they did that I thought was just so well
51:14
was called the Jericho program. Brett, have you ever heard of
51:17
the Jericho program of PCC? So Jericho program is if you
51:23
start PCC and you basically decide that you're going to go
51:28
for four years, your senior year is free.
51:32
So you pay three years or maybe called the Joshua program, I
51:35
can't remember. You pay the your freshman year,
51:38
your sophomore year and your junior year of your college
51:41
bill. And when you get to your senior
51:43
year, you don't have to pay anything if you finished in
51:46
those four years. And so it's a way of of
51:50
rewarding students and going forward.
51:52
And of course, like I said, they've got the financial
51:54
backing of a backup. And so they made it where, hey,
51:57
we're trying to help you get through this point.
52:00
We know your senior year is tough.
52:02
We know your senior year's got projects and final things going
52:05
on. And so how can we help you?
52:07
We're going to give you that year for free.
52:09
And, and students were able to many people I talked to, we
52:13
graduated debt free, we didn't have to get student loans.
52:15
And we had an accredited degree that was top notch.
52:19
That was on point. Yeah, there was some legalism,
52:22
the yeah, there was some spiritual separation.
52:25
Yeah, there was some hard times. But man, education wise while
52:29
we're going to college was great.
52:31
And so I applaud them for those things because that's that's
52:34
great things. And so it's sort of the last
52:37
thing we want to look at is how BJU and PCC compared to Howells
52:44
and Bob Gray and and Longview Baptist Temple.
52:48
Brett, what's your thoughts on that?
52:50
So Bob Jones and PCC, they're more academic, they're more
52:54
polished, you know, howls and, and, and in Longview they were
53:00
more emotional, more personality driven.
53:04
But I think all three emphasize separation, authoritarian
53:09
leadership, and just like stiff, rigid spiritual control.
53:15
Also, all three have shaped pastors and churches across the
53:19
country, often in ways that go unquestioned.
53:24
Now, next week, we're headed to Tennessee to talk about Crown
53:28
College and Claret Sexton. You know, one of the quieter but
53:32
still influential forces in the independent fundamental Baptist
53:36
world. Absolutely.
53:38
I think it's going to be great as we talk through Crown,
53:41
looking forward to our interview, coming up with Rachel
53:43
Davis, Rebecca Davis, I'm sorry, Rebecca Davis and the Grace
53:47
Report and looking forward to this series.
53:50
I know it's been a fun series talking through these
53:53
foundational steps, and we're getting close to our summer
53:57
break and we know that we're trying to push forward.
54:00
We've got some good things in the pipeline that we're going to
54:03
be picking up in the fall as well.
54:05
And so we're excited what the Lord's doing and excited about
54:08
this series that we're going through.
54:10
And until next time, to God be the glory.
54:13
Great. Things he has done.
54:16
A new name found that good grace, found that healing, and
54:22
the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning that has no
54:26
ending. I found that second chance,
54:27
found my best friend, found my forgiveness, found my happiness.
54:30
I've been singing ever since I found my friend on me.
54:47
Thanks for listening to the Four Freedom Podcast.
54:50
If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking,
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subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast
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55:00
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