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The rise of Vietnam as a manufacturing hub for e-commerce · The Modern Supply Chain

• Izzy Rosenzweig (00:00): Vietnam, it has their edge because of what? What's their edge from your perspective? Jim Kennemer (00:04): I really encourage apparel, shoes and furniture and wooden goods. I think Vietnam has a strong edge in those regards. I'm just in parallel. I mean, by our estimation, there's about 6,000 factories that employ about two million people. So it's a huge established industry. I mean, Lululemon, Nike, Patagonia, all these big brands have been making in Vietnam for years prior to the trade war. So it's not something they just shifted at the last minute. Izzy Rosenzweig (00:40): This is The Modern Supply Chain, the show where we break down modern supply chain strategies that help e-commerce brands shift from staying above water to predictably scaling. Today's guest is Jim Kennemer, founder and managing director of Cosmo Sourcing, which has grown into a full service sourcing partner, helping thousands of brands from startups to SMEs to Fortune 500 companies, connect with reliable manufacturers across China and Vietnam. With a background that spans public service and the US House representatives, nonprofit work with America Corp Vista. Jim brings a unique blend of operational discipline, global perspective, and on the ground supply chain expertise. In this episode, we'll discuss the rise of Vietnam as a manufacturing hub, how brands can diversify and de- risk their supply chain, and Jim's practical approach to building transparent, resilient sourcing partnerships in an increasingly complex global market. Jim, thank you so much for being on The Modern Supply Chain Podcast. Jim Kennemer (01:19): Hey, it's a pleasure. I was always excited to be here. Izzy Rosenzweig (01:21): As we mentioned right before the call, in today's e-commerce world, and especially with AI, it really has never been easier to start a brand. You got Shopify, every app in the world, but one thing I have noticed is supply chain, the backend. Going to the factories, that is the complex area. But I guess before we get into that, Jim, maybe give me a little background. How do you get into this? You weren't always in sourcing. How did you get into become a sourcing expert? I Jim Kennemer (01:47): Feel like I spent my 20s kind of ordering odd jobs trying to figure out what I wanted to do. Like you said, I worked in houses of representatives who were a little bit very low level, nothing too exciting, but was there in the capital building in DC, wideward rafting guide on the Pigeon River, Tennessee. I got my MBA from Business School in Shanghai. So that's kind of started it. I just always had in my mind I want to live and work and be overseas. Travel is my passion. I'm actually in Mexico, spending winters. So if I'm traveling, I'm happy. But yeah, I always want to be overseas, just have a job and career that takes me overseas. So I got my MBA from Shanghai. And just being in Shanghai, people were reaching out to me about finding factories or verifying factories or visiting factories, kind of doing all that. (02:27): So I started doing that just as a side job. Ended up getting a job in consulting unrelated. Did that for about a year, but kept doing sourcing and visiting factories and that on the side. And after a year doing that and after I completed my MBA, I pretty much decided to just quit my job and start Cosmo Sourcing from scratch. So officially quit my job. And I say founded in 2012 because that's when I really started freelancing. Officially quit my job in 2013. And yeah, in 2013, Christmas, I visited Vietnam, fell in love with the country. I was like, this is kind of where I want to be. So 2014, I took the leap, moved to Vietnam, started Vietnam sourcing. Yeah, in China, everybody was sourcing from China at the time, literally under competitors, but no one had Vietnam on the radar. So I was like, "I'm way taking my chance here." Izzy Rosenzweig (03:08): Yeah, Jim Kennemer (03:09): 2014 took a chance and moved to Vietnam and started causing the sourcing to Vietnam. Izzy Rosenzweig (03:13): It's a great story. And I think the lesson I think in your story that I see myself as well, you have to have boots on the ground. You could do everything from a computer, Alibaba, whatever you want, but there's something about being boots on the ground that you see the differences between either the factories or the country. So back to China versus Vietnam, you did some sourcing in China, you did some sourcing in Vietnam, or you leaned into Vietnam. What are the key differences? And to your point, you were quite early. Vietnam, I think has gotten over time bigger and Portless has operations of Vietnam. It's Jim Kennemer (03:44): Been insane in the last 10 years. And it's been great just seeing the change because when 2014, Vietnam didn't make much. I mean, they did a lot of apparel, but it was all in the cheaper, lower end apparel. Our first few projects ran, I don't know if it was randomly, but we're industrial wooden goods. So wheelbarrow handles big spools for wire, the big giant spools you see on trucks that have thousand meters of wire and a few other projects like that. So it was a few random projects. It wasn't like you could do anything and everything. But since then, Vietnam's just definitely going up in the supply chain. But yeah, I mean, to your point, China obviously is kind of a one-stop shop for everything. You get anything at annual queues. You can get private label goods. China's like the only country you can get private label goods where you just have a good RMA, put your logo on it and then resell it. (04:27): No one else. Everybody else is just contract manufacturers, which means you have provided tech packs and product specs. And Vietnam is very much that way, still to this day. So it's definitely different. You have to have a different mindset. You have to be more prepared in Vietnam than you do in China. In terms of tech packs, actually do your research, kind of follow up on suppliers. Vietnam is a little frustrating a lot, especially the first time people do it on their own. They reach out factories and get no response and they really have to chase after factories and follow up with them. And China, you got RFQ or Alibaba and other platforms where you just put RFQ and get 20 different factories. And frankly, 15 of those are trading companies. Just chase after you and say, "Here's my quote, here's my bid. Take our business." And Vietnam, you have to be one, "Hey, I got a product. (05:08): I don't go to your factory. I want to buy it. " And obviously that's one of the big benefits of working with sourcing company is we do that chasing and finding factories for you. And MOQs are higher. You have to be very selective about what you source from Vietnam. They do have definitely other strengths. I think apparel across the board is actually better than Vietnam. One of the big categories, wooden goods as well, furniture. Vietnam actually exports more furniture in the United States than China now, although China still leads globally in total. Oh, that's just specifically Vietnam, United States and China, United States. China still leads global furniture production, but just in terms of exports United States, Vietnam's actually ahead. So they do a lot of furniture and I think the quality is very good in Vietnam, but it does have higher MOQs. You do have you have your tech packs. (05:49): There's a lot more processes, a lot more involved in Vietnam than it is in China. Izzy Rosenzweig (05:53): So let's dig into that because we work with hundreds of brands and we're helpful on logistics side and how we move goods right from the other factor to the customer. But it comes to picking a country hub, brands often ask us like, "Hey, do you think I should be leaving for this product into China, Vietnam?" And it's complex. It's not easy to answer. And I want to touch on a few areas. For example, you talked about MOQ. In China, you want to make a sweatshirt, one fabric role. Vietnam, no, MOQ's higher. So maybe you could talk about that. How should someone think about from an MOQ perspective where you mentioned it's higher, there's a higher threshold. So what's the reason behind that or maybe some context behind it? And then the follow-up would be to that, that even with potentially a higher threshold, why would someone still bet on Vietnam over China in some scenarios? Jim Kennemer (06:40): Yeah. A lot of the MOQ reasons for Vietnam comes down to contract manufacturing. Like China, like you said, if you want a sweatshirt, you can get one, one print. They already have a production line just pumping off sweatshirt after sweatshirt, so it's just more or less they had to set up. But in Vietnam, if you want a sweatshirt made, you go to the factory. And they're actually, for sweatshirts and hoodies, there are a few factories that kind of do make it, but more or less, they'll grow and set up a dedicated production line for you and make that sweatshirt to you for your spec. So it's not like they make it already. They have to set up the production and do that for you as a result as is on set overhead cost to do that. So I mean, for sweatshirts, we can find factories to do low as 500 or 300, but it's very few. (07:19): And honestly, since trade war, a lot of those factories have out there MOQs. And generally speaking with clothing items, I advise at least a thousand to get started. So if you're definitely doing a bigger production one. Izzy Rosenzweig (07:29): There's setup costs I understand. Is there also a fabric component to here like fabric mills and how much they're willing to sell, assuming you need net new fabric versus existing fabric that they have on the floor? Jim Kennemer (07:40): Yeah, for sure. Yeah, they definitely, I mean, most times they buy fabric and they keep a little bit of fabric on stock or existing production, but they buy the fabric rolls for production. They don't keep anything in stock. So yeah, that's definitely true. And yeah, the rolls are pretty big. We're talking 1,000, 10,000 square meters of fabric. Izzy Rosenzweig (07:56): And are they buying the fabric from China? Are they buying it from local fabric mills? How does that usually work? Jim Kennemer (08:01): Yeah, it comes all over. Honestly, China, Korea, local mills, Malaysia, Indonesia, it really varies. And a lot of times the wholesellers buy it and then they sell it to the factories too. So you can buy it local, but it's not produced local. Vietnam's getting more mills, more production. Last year or two, they set up a microfiber factory up in Hanoi, which is great because microfiber's fairly in demand, but yeah, it honestly comes from all over. Izzy Rosenzweig (08:25): So the MOQ is, I think, the consistent pushback I hear from brands and maybe the question of what size brand is right for Vietnam? So I guess to answer that, is it bigger brands that make more sense for Vietnam and very often do your small batch in China, your big batch in Vietnam or Korea? Or how do you think about what size brand is the best fit for Vietnam? Jim Kennemer (08:46): No, I think we do work with startups, but I mean, honestly, we get requests from people all the time. They're like, "I just want to start with 10, test the market, see if they sell and then expand. And you just can't work like that in Vietnam." I mean, sometimes we find one-off tailors who more or less handmaked item, but when you handmake item versus a production line, the quality is going to be completely different. Not to say they're both bad, but they're going to be different looks and feel. But yeah, I definitely want to have established capital and have a higher MOQ expectations. We can obviously get samples prior to production, but you definitely need to commit to a larger purchase order, which can be a little frustrating. But we do work a lot of smaller brands. I say revenue in the six figures probably would be ideal. (09:24): In the Izzy Rosenzweig (09:24): World of their edge, Vietnam edge. So there was a while where Vietnam lower import taxes from China. I mean, we're in a period right now, it's March 10th. You bought was struck down. Right now there is section 122, which is 10% across the world with a maximum of up to 15%. So there's no Vietnam, yes. China, no. Yeah, everyone's getting challenged. But what do you see as the main edge? So when you think like, hey, a brand's willing to hire MoQ, that doesn't concern them, Vietnam has their edge because of what? What's their edge from your Jim Kennemer (09:54): Perspective? I really encourage apparel, shoes and furniture and wooden goods. I think Vietnam has a strong edge in those regards. I'm just in parallel. I mean, by our estimation, there's about 6,000 factories that employ about two million people. So it's a huge established industry. I mean, Lululemon, Nike, Patagonia, all these big brands have been making in Vietnam for years prior to the trade war. So it's not something they just shifted at the last minute. And so that industry in Vietnam is extremely well developed. And same with furniture and wood and goods. Vietnam is tropical country. It has hardwoods. It can get all the hardwoods local, high quality hardwoods too. So the cost and China, for the most part, imports most of their hardwoods or woods in general. So just from a cost savings point there, shoes as well. Vietnam's when it peaks every now and then. (10:40): V, the largest, I think it's down second actually. I need to double check those stats actually. But it's consistently in top three largest shoemakers in the world. So we do a lot of shoe brands in Vietnam. Although I will say a lot of time with shoe brands, we'll get souls or the molds for souls made in China shipped to Vietnam and some components. It's not made in China, shipped via China. Still, when we do the operas, the final assembly and it counts as a made in Vietnam product. And yeah, quality's quite good. And we're talking like tennis shoes, dress shoes, any types of shoes. And those are kind of big categories, but it is definitely ... Yeah, I mean, they're definitely making investment like plastic injection, molding, silicone ejection molding and other goods. But that's, I would say, in the developing industry, but we still have some success with some projects about some clients who really want to move out of China for whatever reason. Izzy Rosenzweig (11:23): So it seems like from our perspective, for brands that are large, they want diversification. Vietnam is a really good diversification. And then for a long time, even before the trade war, there's always been tax benefits with Vietnam. So there's a tax angle, there is a diversification angle. And if you had to pick China, Vietnam, India, there seems to be this theme where very often they'll lean into Vietnam versus India at least are what we're seeing. Jim Kennemer (11:48): Yeah. And I've always leaned into Vietnam. I think it's perfect. Izzy Rosenzweig (11:51): Is it because of labor? Is it labor cheaper? China, people say, "Oh, everything's cheaper in China." Not really. I think it might be cheaper in Vietnam. Jim Kennemer (11:57): Yeah. No, the labor is cheaper in Vietnam, especially when you compare tier one cities. I mean, tier three and four or five cities in China are still pretty cost competitive, but I think it's just reliability. Vietnam just doesn't BS people like China does. I mean, there's a little bit of fluff, but it's more or less if they say they can or can't do it, they can or can't and they're pretty frank and straightforward with it. And I just find them much more reliable. We've sourced from other countries. I don't know if we named names, but they say they'll do it. They try their hardest. China, obviously you got the yes man culture where they always say yes on something, and that's probably a lot more countries, but I just find it more reliable and easy to work with in Vietnam. I was working two years in China. (12:34): I still work in China a lot. You really have to follow up with them on quality, say what they can and can't do. And it can get really hands-on a little frustrating because they definitely say yes and they definitely try to save face a lot more. But I like working in Vietnam. It was kind of breath of fresh air for me when I moved down. China, there's so many small things that just nitpicky at you and just build up over two years. Izzy Rosenzweig (12:55): You've been in Vietnam for a while. Have you seen an evolution of how they run manufacturing? The way either they're structured their factories, the way they think about supply chain, what have you seen evolve in Vietnam? Jim Kennemer (13:07): Yeah, I mean, over the last several years, they've definitely been improving the quality. I mean, a lot of them newer factories are super modern. We're drunk cameras at every workstation with grid so they can inject quality at every stitching part. Yeah. I visit a factory not too long ago and every work had a button, they could press to stop production that they notice a flaw at the cameras that I was talking about. And they're definitely leaning pretty heavy into technology and everything just to improve QC. I mean, before it was basically giant warehouses with no AC and a thousand, maybe 5,000 people just working literally Soviet made Soy machines with flywheels and everything. Now it's all modern electronics. It's definitely, yes, evolution. Supply chains are more advanced too. And with VNM too, it's borders China. So we still get a lot of components and parts and materials from China shipped to Vietnam, but it's honestly easy to do. (13:55): And anytime we have a factory, like if we're doing backpacks or shoes, we'll do upper, like we said, we'll do the soles sometimes from China just because they better about custom soils. But the factories, the shoe factories all have their connections with the soil factories. So we just have one point of contact and we can audit the Chinese factory, but yeah. I Izzy Rosenzweig (14:10): Think from to that point, definitely there's a tax advantage out of Vietnam. There's higher MOQs, but there could also be longer lead times because very often to China's credit, they have the biggest ecosystem in the world. Their down the block is a sole provider and then it is really sophisticated. To China's credit, at least what we've seen, they are pretty good at delivering on time. Vietnam as well, I'm not saying India is known for not delivering on time is what we've seen from our customers, but Vietnam at least has that. They'll give you the longer lead time. "Listen, we need an extra 10 days. Why? Because you have to buy the raw materials. So I find that the very upfront, they'll tell you what the right lead time is and then they'll deliver on the lead time, which is longer than some other countries, or let's say China. Jim Kennemer (14:50): Well, I mean, first time's orders, if you're doing a backpack, you got to order the zippers and everything from China and just wait till everything gets in before you can even start putting the first stitching in the product. But yeah, we oftentimes tell people, especially if it's a component heavy product that anticipate about 30 days from when we place a purchase order till when they start production, just because they need to get the raw materials and everything delivered in stock before they can even start production. And yeah, a lot of that delay is because it comes from China. Although Vietnam is getting better, YKK did open up a Zipper factory in Vietnam, not too far from our office even. So now even get stuff like Zippers locally before we had to import Zippers and stuff like that from China. Izzy Rosenzweig (15:27): So back to Cosmo. So Cosmo, I know we've referred customers to you guys in the past and we're big fans, but you guys are very into transparency. How does it work? So if someone reaches out to you, can you walk me through what Cosmo does and how they take a transparent approach? Jim Kennemer (15:42): Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, once we get your product specs and everything from you, we have team based in Vietnam. So we'll create RFQ and everything and reach out to factories. But the way our services work, we charge a flat rate instead of commission because commission agents, they have to negotiate the commission with the factories and they're going to be stuck with directing you to tier or three factories. Since we charge a flat rate from the clients, we work for the clients and we're not beholden to any one or two factories, so we can do a much, much broader search. And then once we do the search, find for the RFQ, reach out to factories, verify, vet them. We'll give you the full sourcing report, full contact details with the factories and direct introductions between you and the factory so there's no middleman. And we typically get about two to six quotes per product. (16:21): So you have choices too, and you're free to make juice whichever factory. So it's not like we steer you to one or two factories, you're going to pick the one that you're most comfortable working with. Izzy Rosenzweig (16:29): And I think there's like, again, I'm such a big fan of boots on the ground. I think you can't replicate that. Do you have any stories of customers that came to you like, "Hey, I tried to do this. " Maybe you could, I don't know if you have a story off the top of your head, but any stories of someone tried to do something themselves and like, "Ah, Jim, let's talk." Jim Kennemer (16:43): Yeah, we get a lot of clients and as soon as they get a quote in that looks good enough, they seem to always commit to it. They don't do a broader search. So I mean, we've had several clients. We just had one do a hunting jacket, for instance. He just took the first quote right off the bat, got it made, spent a few thousand bucks getting samples and a small production run, and it was pretty crap. Kind of surprising because it was a known factory too. One I've known, I don't think we've ever worked with him, but we've seen them and know their name. But I think him, he just had a very basic tech pack. I think he probably honestly used ChatGPT to make one. And so I mean, once he did that, obviously he reached out to us. We have better factories for him. (17:19): So we did a much broader search and this was January. So we were able to get multiple quotes from multiple factories for him. And yeah, definitely get a much better quality jacket than what he did on his own. But yeah, I think the big thing is people just really don't understand the amount of time it takes because just from our internal tracking, we take about 50 to 70 hours between our team to do a single sourcing project. These are people that know what they're doing with professional tools. So realistically, to do a full search, what I think a full search where you get every qualified factory reviewed at least and reached out and followed up multiple times, probably take someone in experience, probably 700 hours to do work-wise. And most people think just something to do a couple hours a day, every day for a few weeks, maybe 20, 30 hours total to find factories. (18:04): So it's definitely something you kind of really need to commit, do a full search, really research all your options with multiple tools to do and not just kind of go with the first one because yeah, I mean, as soon as they get, like I said, just get a quote, good enough, like that's all I need to do. Izzy Rosenzweig (18:19): Is that the classic mistake? Is there any line that you're like, "Hey, if you're sourcing Vietnam, never do X." Jim Kennemer (18:25): Yeah, I would say just not rely on Alibaba or those types of databases because by our estimation, maybe 10, 15% of factories in Vietnam are on Alibaba at most and have those are even active. And most of those tend to be Chinese owned and operated factories too, which China, just quick note, Vietnam does a lot for an ownership of a factory. So there are Chinese owned factory time when he's owned factories. So you're going very much limited your search. I mean, honestly, one of the best ways if you're just doing it on your own is come to Vietnam, go to trade shows. There's trade shows for every niche throughout the year and kind of meet the factories person to person and then have a week after where you just plan to visit the factories in person after that, if you really want to do it on your own. (19:04): There's other tools. I mean, we use Import Yeti internally. I think it's good. One of the big things though with customs and import Yeti though is they're going to give you the biggest factories, obviously. If you're looking at clothing project, we can get your thighs ins of the world or young ones, which makes for Nike, for instance, but those factories have MOQs of like 20, 30,000. So you really want to kind of go down lower on the list, especially if you're a first time brand with a 500,000 MOQ. Honestly, you're going to work with a smaller mid-size factory, not the big boys, as much as you want to work with a factory made Lululemon. Izzy Rosenzweig (19:33): I think you're a thousand right. And I would say that if that one statement specific for Vietnam, if you're going to Vietnam, do not rely on Alibaba. Alibaba is not populated enough for Vietnam market. China is amazing. For Vietnam, absolutely not. Like go yourself, go trade shows or use Cosmo. And again, I do really love the way you do it where you take away the friction of like, oh, trade partner, they're going to add 10% and now I'm going to pay a fortune. No, you're going to be there, you'll introduce them, you'll help guide. I really think that is a great thing. So if you really want to do it yourself, go to trade shows, probably smarter to work with Jim at Cosmo, but don't use Alibaba in Vietnam. Jim Kennemer (20:12): Yeah. And I mean, and there's not really a good single database too for suppliers in Vietnam. Yeah. I mean, people are trying to make them. And honestly, we have our own internal database. I know source ready. I mean, they're using AI scraping them. And as far as I can tell, they're one of the better ones, but even then it's still limited once you get on boosting the ground, natural relationships. And even once you get the names of factories, reaching out to them and getting a response too. Izzy Rosenzweig (20:35): I worked with your team in Vietnam. I was in Vietnam. We visited some factories together. Yeah, appreciate it. That's great. Pictures versus reality, night and day. I'm curious your perspective of AI. So I've seen, and you actually touched on ChatGPT for tech packs. Do you see a trend of brands leveraging AI for tech packs? Is that a bad thing? Is that a good thing? Maybe just better prompts. Where are you seeing AI when it comes to manufacturing right now? Jim Kennemer (20:58): Yeah, I mean, honestly, I've seen a lot and some have had success and some not. Randomly, we had a client, I can't specify the details, but they did plush toys and they used AI to make the designs, but it was just static images. And shockingly, it worked, but I will say it took them months working with a factory, a lot of back and forth because the factory themselves developed tech packs based on their AI prompted designs for plush toys coming out like a line of six unique toys. And that worked, but it was very, very involved with the factory. I was CC'd in emails and I realistically think it probably took them from submitting the designs. We obviously found the factory, but from that to actually getting a production ready sample was probably about four months because they really had to tweak all the designs and get everything. (21:40): And so you're going to be much more involved. Like I said, the hunting jacket was ChatGPT design, so it had its flaws and the guy was not hands-on with the factory, like the Flush Toy. The Plush Choice succeeded because they were very hands-on, very involved in the process, very active and both sides were. And the Jacket factory, for instance, he also used ChatGPT or some other AI program. It was very basic tech pack. And he said, and the factory just took it, made a design patterns, said, "Is this good enough?" He was like, "Sure, why not? " And so he wasn't involved in that process. And yeah, it definitely is a tool you can use, but yeah, it's still very limited for tech packs. Honestly, we work with a lot of designers, some of which we find on Upwork or Fiber to get detailed tech packs, but we have a pretty good Rolodex or whatever of designers that we work with for specific categories, so we can quickly recommend them to people. (22:30): And in terms of other sourcing databases, yeah, I talked to several and I mean, they scrape the customs database is open source, they scrape other resources, get a huge selection, Yellow Pages, whatever to get as many factory details. But yeah, the big thing with that is A, this is going to steer you towards the bigger factory because every time you do a search with these ones, it's steering you towards these, like I said, the Thycosens, the young ones, the woodside, which makes for Ikea for furniture. It's going to steer you to that because you're going to see shipments and they think, oh, wow, they made 6,000 shipments last year. Obviously a great factory. They make my similar products and they're not going to answer you because you only have a thousand MOQ. Yeah. I mean, you really got to go down the list. And then beyond that too, it gives you contact details, which is fine, but you're going to have to figure out, do a lot of your unvetting by whatever means, really follow up with them. (23:21): Most people just email. Email blasts 12 factories or 50 or however many, and then just listen to the five that respond back. But I mean, with Vietnam, A, it's still very much in- person relationship. So for our team, we can just drive from our office of Binduong to a factory a lot of times, and we do that almost daily, it seems like. And then also Zallow, which is a WhatsApp type messaging app, which is popular in Vietnam. So we'll usually try and find two or three different ways to contact factories like Zallow, email, in person if needed phone calls to really follow up and figure out which way they use. And so we get a pretty good response rate. And a lot of people will just, like I said, take the five that respond, then the one that gives them a quote and then call it a day. (24:02): So yeah, you do really have to be much more evolved. Yeah. Izzy Rosenzweig (24:04): So Klaus will say, don't take the first one, do due diligence, take your time. You're picking the most important partner that you have in your business. And then I would say from the AI perspective, AI for the tools that you're seeing in scraping factories, noisy, probably the big one, I'm not going to answer you. And on the tech pack side, what it sounds like what you're saying is it's actually a decent start to get your idea on paper, but still a good idea to work on the designer or engineer, depending on what you're doing, to really fine tune it because I guess your communication, instead of going four months of back and forth, just nail your tech pack and then that hopefully goes down to six weeks. Jim Kennemer (24:39): Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. And if you have a good tech pack, I mean, you can send it to any factory and they can work from it. For instance, PlusChoice example, they're a good partner. It's a good factory, but we had several options, but the factories are like, "Hey, if you had a tech pack, we could work with you. " But we don't have designers in- house that can develop the patterns and all that and have the patients to work with you for effectively free for a few months and hopes you place purchase order. So if they had a full tech pack, they probably would have double, triple. Izzy Rosenzweig (25:08): Oh, that's interesting. Jim Kennemer (25:09): Factories that were to work with them. Izzy Rosenzweig (25:10): So it's not only the fact that you can increase your time to market, but factories won't work with you because you don't have your tech pack ready, so they don't want to waste time because they have no idea if they can get a PO. Jim Kennemer (25:20): For sure. And yeah, because most factories don't have designers in oust or engineers. And though designers they do have tend to be pattern maker and very technical. You submit a backpack design with a full tech pack. They'll have a designer who can program their cutting machines and stuff, but they're not aesthetic designers. Izzy Rosenzweig (25:36): That's a big one. Brands make sure you have a great tech pack. They'll get more factories willing to work with you and to go to market faster. Jim Kennemer (25:42): A lot of what we do, I mean, when we get RFQ, it's pretty detailed. The MOQs, the tech pack and factories see that right off the bat and they're like, okay, great. They have their stuff together. It's organized. They're not going to be a hassle to work with a legit customer versus someone who's, oh, I'm going to develop a tech pack later or even a mood board or something. I've had people submit mood boards. I'm just like, the factories are not going to understand this. Izzy Rosenzweig (26:05): All right, Jim, this is an awesome conversation. People that want to reach out, learn more about Cosmo, potentially reach out to use Cosmo. Where can they find you? Jim Kennemer (26:13): Yeah. cosmosourcing.com is our website. If you want to reach out to me at directly, jim@cosmosourcing.com or Cosmo Sourcing on all the socials, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. Just Google Cosmo Sourcing and get in touch with me or jim@cosmosourcing.com, my direct email best way probably. Izzy Rosenzweig (26:28): Love it. Again, we're big fans, Jim. We love that you're transparent approach. Pleasure. Y'all too. Thank you. Yeah, we have a bunch of businesses that we work together with and we're really excited. For us, we think it's early days of supply chain and it's just going to get more and more interesting. Jim, thank you so much for being on the pod. Jim Kennemer (26:44): Always a pleasure. Izzy Rosenzweig (26:48): Thank you for listening to The Modern Supply Chain. If you have questions about anything we talked about, you can find me on LinkedIn. And if you're interested in learning more about Portless, check out our website, portless.com. As always, hit that follow button so you don't miss an episode. See you next time.