Latest / Bro-ing Pains / When Success Isn’t Enough | Beyond Pressure, Performance & Possibility

Transcript

When Success Isn’t Enough | Beyond Pressure, Performance & Possibility · Bro-ing Pains

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so what if they request for attention?
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like they want attention.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why is that bad?
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Why is it bad to want some reassurance?
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that bad to want to be told that everything's gonna be okay?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: What's up, world?
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Browing Pains, where we have the conversations that live somewhere between your therapist's office and the group chat.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Chad, a licensed marriage and family therapist, but my friends like to call me Puppet Chad.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Carlos, theater kid turned self-proclaimed corporate puppy.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: And a quick reminder: this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health care.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you're struggling or know someone who is, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional in your area.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: All right, Chad, the big 2-2.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: This is episode 22 for season two, episode 10.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: How much pressure can a person carry before it starts to break them?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Over the last few years, we've seen a number of high-profile athletes, people at the top of their game, admired by millions, lose their lives.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: And when that happens, the conversation usually turns to mental health.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: But today we want to zoom out a bit because yes, mental health matters, but so does the environment, the pressure, the expectations, the identity that gets tied to performance.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: This season we've discussed what happens when your worth is measured by how you perform.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: But what happens when the world is watching every move you make?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Today's episode is about trying to understand that pressure, not to speculate on any one person's story, but to explore the broader reality that so many professionals and honestly so many of us are navigating.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Before we get into it, we do want to acknowledge that this episode touches on suicide and mental health.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: If that's something that feels heavy for you right now, feel free to take this at your own pace or skip this episode and come back to it later.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: If you're listening and this topic feels close to home, just know that you're not alone and support is out there.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Over the span of less than one year, um, between the April 2025 and February of 2026, there has been three professional athletes associated with football that have um died by suicide.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I just kind of want to like pay respect to their names and some of their stories, um, and not just like gloss over them super quickly.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: The first one, uh, his name is Kyron May Lacey.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: He uh died in April 2025 at the age of 24.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: He was a former LSU Louisiana State University wide receiver and standouts, getting ready for the draft, which is in April every year, um, mid to late April, and several weeks before.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Kyron Lacey was facing you know some serious legal change charges tied to a fatal car crash that was considered a negligent homicide and a hit and run.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: And with the growing public pressure and the grand jury hearing fast approaching, um, there was a domestic dispute with a family member that led to a police chase and he ended up crashing his car.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: And when first responders came on scene um and investigated the car, they found Kyron Lacy um had passed.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so he unfortunately never got to be drafted.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: He it's unspeculated where where he was gonna go, but I mean, potentially he was gonna be drafted and and making his dream a reality of going into the NFL, and he didn't get a chance to do that.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: There's another gentleman, Marshawn Nealand.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: He died also at the age of 24 in November of the 2025-26 season.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: He was an active NFL player on the roster of the Dallas Cowboys.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: He was a second-round pick in 2024, so he's been in the league for two years.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: He unfortunately had experienced a really devastating personal hardship, including the death of his mother earlier that year.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: And leading up to his death, he was also involved in a high-speed police pursuit, reportedly had expressed suicidal intent and ideation to loved ones.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then he was also, unfortunately, found dead, and the case was investigated as a suicide.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: And the last one was just recently in February of 2026.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: NFL wide receiver.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: He played for the Cardinals, Falcons, and then the last team was the Vikings.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he was a former college star at Purdue, uh, Rondell Moore, and he was found dead at his home in Indiana again with a um self-inflicted wound.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the authorities and the details are still under investigation with that, but it's presumed that it's also a death by suicide.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so just like in a in a span of literally 10 months, you know, three people who all men of color, all young men who uh made the choice or maybe felt like there wasn't any other choice to make, um, who ended up taking their lives.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, the whole reason why, you know, I do this work and why we want to do this podcast is to be able to have these difficult conversations.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And to be quite frank, like this is really difficult for the both of us.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: But um, we just kind of want to again start the conversation and and just know that like this is happening, this is real, and um, maybe we can do something about it.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you think about hearing some of those uh details, Carlos?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: So you stated that he spoke to his family and friends.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: Clearly, we don't know the lengths of that conversation, but um, I guess they were aware of his sort of suicidal ideation.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: Not a judgment on anybody's part, obviously, but I think it just goes to show the seriousness involved.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: It just kind of feels like not enough is being done, right?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and I'm not trying to point fingers at anybody in specific, but like Definitely.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, even on like an institutional level, you know, with the NFL.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: The NFL just released a um mandate from the owner's meeting over the last couple uh weeks here that they are requiring every NFL team to have a full-time mental health professional on every single team's staff, full-time.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that could be utilized with a lot of different things, whether that be family therapy for the kids and a lot of different stuff.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's huge.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, I mean, kudos to them to to respond.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously, I wish that was there before it stuck track struck tragedy um as it did over the course of the last year.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I think institutions are are catching on.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: I know college campuses uh over the last decade, two decades or so have really started to ramp up their um mental health counseling centers.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's a lot of institutions that are increasing their awareness and and the help that's out there.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's a great first step, but I think where my mind goes is how much are people actually taking advantage of these resources?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and that's where, you know, we wanted to talk a little bit about, you know, our personal connection to this topic.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I've openly talked about just, you know, on this podcast about having like just low self-esteem over a long course of period of time.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: And what got me into the field was going to therapy myself.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: But my journey to actually sit in front of a therapist was really difficult.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how many people say you should reach out?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was working for an organization and they have an EAP program.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if people know this, but it's called an employee assistance program.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of companies have this where you can get like at least six sessions usually free for mental health care.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I was at this point where it was just it was kind of now or never to get help or or not.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so I kind of told myself, like, no, let's like, let's not do this.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's reach out.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, everyone says that you need to reach out.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I reached out and the EAP like counselor or EAP person um got back to me and said there were no providers in the area to see me.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my God.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: That they were completely full.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I was you know, and someone in like that, like really vulnerable state.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, not to get into too much detail, but it, I mean, it was it was really there was a lot, a lot of depression there.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: And to tell them that like, sorry, like no one can help you is like it was devastating.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so you're right, like there's these, there's these, you know, quote unquote like services out there, but the accessibility of them and especially in-person accessibility nowadays is just it's really difficult.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just wanted to share that because people say, you know, reach out, and it's like, I did, motherfucker, like I tried.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I mean, eventually it all, you know, worked out and and I got the help that I needed for sure.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: Where my mind goes is more about the the stigma, you know, for for seeking out help or you know, like what what that means for you as a person, as a human to to need help and and to not be able to do it on your own.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think we're often so you know told to just like suck it up.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: Everything that we've talked about already on the podcast.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: Even though there are resources accessible, it's not always the first uh instinct, the first you know, thing that we think of to go and seek help, right?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: And there I think for me personally, there was a lot of stigma there, and that prevented me from reaching out for support.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: But I definitely could have benefited from from those from those resources.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: I've experienced suicidal ideation a couple points in my life, you know, and very clearly like very low points in my life.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: I've had more than a few experiences with friends and people that I grew up with, you know, that at one point were very close to me that have either attempted or actually died of suicide.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: It it feels almost normalized, right?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's it's something that happens and and it's common, but I think that there's also so much like awkwardness around it.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like people don't really know how to address it, people don't really know how to even begin to to talk about it.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that this is my goal for this episode is is to to to get people one talking about it, but then also just like how do we even begin to talk about something that is so heavy and that is so so personal, you know?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like I I I'm pretty sure that we all, all the listeners can can relate to this or have a story of their own, right?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: There's a double-edged sword with like my professional journey of interrupt in you know, engaging with this topic because on one hand I've gotten so comfortable talking about it.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like I talking about suicide ideation to me is just like it's another Tuesday, you know what I mean?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just kind of what a common you know phrase or something like that is like I just I just don't want to be here or I just want to crawl into a hole and never get out.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, even that is a concept of suicidal ideation where it's like you're imagining and you're and you're contemplating what life would be like without existing.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: To me, that's really normal that especially with our society and the amount of pressures that we have, and we sometimes are more so putting on ourselves um than anything, but even the real pressures that we do also feel from other people.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like it it's no wonder that people just don't know a way out, you know, and so that the ideation starts starts to formulate.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious about that journey for you.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what are some things that helped you along the way?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: The point that I'm trying to make here is just how ill-equipped we are, like the the average person is to handle something like this.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it it it leads to the archetype of what depression and how it manifests with men is really under this pressure.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, exactly what I was talking about earlier with the story with Kyron Lacey.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this this dude is gonna be probably drafted and change him and his family's history forever in a weeks.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: And now he's facing serious he was facing serious legal change charges um tied to a fatal car crash, um, which is which was a negligent homicide hit and run.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're going through the NFL process, I mean, you go to the NFL Combine, you do your pro day, which is when a bunch of NFL scouts come to your college, especially if you're at a top university like LSU.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: There's all these prospects that come and you do additional workouts there, and then you do interviews and interviews and interviews.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, these NFL staff are trying to turn every single stone over.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they're trying to figure out how you talk to your roommate and were you respectful to the janitor in your facility.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, dude, they get like it's like they're trying to research you if you're vetting to go to the freaking CIA.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's they these people try to find out everything.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's so much pressure to make sure you have everything all nice and neat.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't feel like they do a very good job.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Especially particular organizations seem to really miss the boat there consistently every year.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: We're looking at you, NFL.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: What the hell?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about specific teams too, you know, like which ones?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you know, just like my favorite one, you know, um, silver and black.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: If you really are turning over every single stone, figuring out if this person's gonna be a great NFL prospect, then why are you why are you drafting so many people that end up don't panning out?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was looking at it more from the the angle of like a a lot of professional athletes have really like legal battles and just like scandals, you know what I mean?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: And and like they just don't seem like the greatest picks.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: And again, so I think that's really important that you said that, right?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think that is a judgment that even myself like hold as well, right?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: But we gotta think about this.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, these professional athletes are put on this pedestal at this stage of everybody's eyeballs are watching them.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so when it goes to the whole country, like they're a small percentage.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: And not only that, the people who commit like crimes or anything like that that happen in the NFL in particular, it's a small percentage.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: If you're talking, you know, 60 people on an NFL roster at any given week-to-week basis, not everybody is doing this, right?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so, but I think that that's the stigma that makes it when it does become public, it makes it almost insurmountable.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like the the biggest thing that I see from this pressure is from men and getting to the point where you're having the suicide ideation is I feel like I don't know where to go.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where is a safe place where I'm not gonna be judged?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: And in particular, when when you get to that point, it starts feeling like there's nowhere, including your own home.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad that you said that because that is a real judgment that I think a lot of people have, but it also contributes to the exact reason why we're having this episode and this conversation.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: So don't fucking say that shit.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: Too late, bitch.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: For one, these professional athletes start at a very young age, usually, right?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: And and so like the the pressure there's so much pressure at a young age to perform.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: And when and when you're at that level like, you know, about to be drafted, you are your not only your livelihood, but your family's livelihood often depends on that and and your success.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, yeah, I can't even begin to imagine the amount of pressure that somebody in that position is in, and it's like literally uh you're under a microscope.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: And on the flip side of that, I feel like it's very easy for people to just be like they're like they have fame, they have money, they have power, they have you know, people wanting to be them, you know what I mean?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like it I think from like from the outside looking in, it feels like a very privileged position to be in.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't change the fact that people are struggling.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're all we're all struggling, we're all suffering here.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, and and I joke about that, but like it's very real.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like we all on a day-to-day basis, we are are all dealing with shit.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's very easy for people to overlook that.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's so funny that you bring that up because even I think within like the therapist community, there's even judgment about what is legit enough for people to work with.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, wow.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like there's a big difference between being employed at a community mental health agency where you're seeing, you know, impoverished communities on a daily basis, versus like specializing in seeing like a particular city like New York's like elite.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and like they're coming into your office and they're struggling with what to do with a particular yacht that they have.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just get the fuck out of my office right now.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, right?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, but like those people like they're struggling.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: They, you know what I mean?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it are we are the are those struggles less valuable?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: To be fair, I think the way that you framed it is like a little misleading because it's like because they're they're not talking about the yacht.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's something much deeper than the yacht, but like that's how it's presenting, right?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and surface value, we're talking about a freaking yacht here, it's not that big of a deal.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: But this fear and this pressure of a decision, and like what do I do with my capital gains in this?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: And how do I make sure that I set my kids up for success with like we're talking different, you know, there's a whole different world here that I no idea what is about.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's still a real struggle.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Or like another common one that people bring up is like people that are famous in the music or movie industry.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like they, if they're gonna go see someone, like you have to go see a therapist who kind of understands a little bit about your world.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, not that not so much they they have to have lived in it, but like, you know, are compassionate with it and can talk to you about some of those struggles.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because none of these struggles are just for cries for attention.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so what if they were cries for attention?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like they want attention.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why is that bad?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why why is it bad to want some reassurance?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that bad to want to be told that everything's gonna be okay?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, I'm thinking a lot about becoming a dad as we're wrapping up our last season before I go into fatherhood.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, Papa Chad in the building.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and like crying babies, you know, like there's there was this um idea that, you know, let them cry it out.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, I don't know, that's just not my philosophy.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like if a baby is crying, um, it needs some soothing.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's a baby, it doesn't know how to self-soothe.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't care if it's two or five or fifteen.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: We all need that support from our caregivers in particular, but also just friends, family, community.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: So these are cries.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they're literal cries when they're babies, sometimes they're not so literal cries when they're 24 years old and they don't know where to go and they're facing legal trouble and they're about to be drafted and they don't know what to do.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's all cries for help.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Same thing with like my animals.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like when when I hear one of my animals in particular who really gets on my nerves, um she is barking, not because she's just being an asshole.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like she's scared, she's trying to alert people, like she's she's doing what she's supposed to do.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Why am I getting frustrated?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because she's being a guard dog.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's what she was literally bred in her DNA to do.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I I it's inconvenient.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's blah, blah, blah.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and and so I have to check myself sometimes.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Another question is how do we start to separate who we are from what we do, slash our performance?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is a million dollar question.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, our society is so driven by performance.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Performance.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: I like to like kind of take people on like an imaginative journey of um any kind of uh successes or accomplishments just happen to be uh a cherry on top to your story.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the the intertwining of your character development over time with your relationships is the story.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: These other accomplishments just happen to be uh little pieces of information along the way.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it would have to be really decreasing the ego and starting to not care about what other people think or or expect of you, and uh living a life that is basically really connected to relationships and focusing only on that.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that if you happen to accomplish things, whoop-de-doo.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: But that all feels very easier said than done.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Something that I was uh talking with my my therapist about recently was like particularly right now, where we are in history, I guess, like it it it all feels very complex, like even more complex than I think.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: At least for me, the way that I see it, it's because we do have access to these resources and to this language around mental health.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: But it's just like, bitch, at the end of the day, that's fine and like that's great.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's great that we're talking about this and it's great that we have these resources, but at the end of the day, bitch, like our livelihood is on the line and our well-being, like our our um survival is online.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: It kind of feels like it's um a band-aid.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it does.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it feels like it's a very uh reactionary.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, just like the NFL like we talked about the NFL, like, oh, now we're gonna all of a sudden now we're gonna have staff members online.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: But we're not gonna talk about the amount of pressure that we put on these players.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're not really solving or talking about the problem about how this happens, but we're just gonna put a band-aid fix on it and be like, well, at least we check the box that we as an organization did what we're supposed to do.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what you're talking about?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I think it's like it sucks, dude.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like it it it it it at least for me, it it all circles back to fucking capitalism.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's like at the end of the day, it's all about making money for somebody, you know.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like I get it, right?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like I also like money.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: I also, you know, in this episode, we're talking about these professional athletes.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: So we're talking about people at the top of their game who they they work at a very high level, and from a very young age, they've performed at a very high level.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think the question for me, it's like, where is that line for them and for people like them who operate at a very high level?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, like I'm thinking even of of your your therapist friend that you brought up last episode about of she has a full-time job and she's a therapist and she has all you know, all these things in her life.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, she's she seems to be doing fine, you know what I mean?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: And and and like she's gonna be doing great.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: Not just fine, she's thriving.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Flourishing.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: It kind of hit me when you said um from a very young age, too.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and then people and institutions look at that and because of greed and capitalism, they want to be able to sell it.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, even I mean, we're gonna go even more onto the down the sports route.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, have you heard of you've heard of NIL and how college players are getting paid and all that stuff?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, now we are incentivizing college athletes to earn money off of literally NIA's NIL stands for name, image, and likeness.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Literally everything about your image and your brand and all of this stuff is now marketable to the consumer and to companies, four companies.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: That to me is just a very scary slope.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Do I think these college athletes should be getting a share of the pot of these millions and millions of dollars that these universities are making off of them?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: I really do.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: I definitely do.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know if they should be outsourcing it through booster clubs and saying, well, if you can make enough money off of NIL, then that's how you get your corporate sponsorships.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's how you can make your money.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, ugh, this is weird.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's just it feels exploitative.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: It feels exploitative and also just feels like a slippery slope to the mental health of college athletes.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: That like my ability to make it in college is how I'm gonna score enough NIL deals.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like now I have to watch my brand and how I post things and I don't know.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's just let these kids be kids and play a sport for fun.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Let them get an education.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I I think something that like is coming up for me is something that we've we've we brought up before, right?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's like it boils down to like what are your values?
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: And at the end of the day, like what is most important to you and and how do you want to live your life?
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: But then I guess I circle back to just like bitch, but we gotta survive, and it's a it's a very difficult time, right?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's just really heavy.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do you how are we expected to hold space for all of that?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: When you're in these spaces or or when you're like these these people that perform at really high levels, from the outside looking in, they they they seem like the perfect, you know, whatever it may be.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I guess that's the danger, right?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like we only know what we see, and we don't know what's going on behind the scenes, what's going on underneath.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we only see the tip of the iceberg.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: When you said like it just feels heavy, like, yeah, I mean, for lack of a better term, like that's that's the broing pain.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like I the thing that we're feeling right here, right now, of like how much and complex all of this is, it makes a lot of sense why people turn to suicide ideation and self-harm for a release of pressure or a suicide attempts.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's really heavy.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so you really have to develop, you know, practices of where do you get your help and how do you feel safe in different environments?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: And there's ways to to work on this.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's just again, I think this episode is just really important to say that like what you're feeling is real and and you're not alone, and but it also doesn't have to be this way.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a great segue.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: We can talk about how to find help, how to find resources, like you know, like what options are out there.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: Again, going back to my statement earlier, like I often feel so ill-equipped to handle this topic, and and I think it's a common feeling.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: What do you got to say?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: What do you have for us, Chad?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I got a lot to say.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I always like to start with the basics, which is do you have your Maslov's hierarchy of needs?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, are you are you eating?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have the place to sleep?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Are you exercising?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have any other stress buster um implementation of your daily life, like engaging with nature or your spiritual development or um community and relationships?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like these are the things that like go quickly unnoticed because all you gotta do is worry about the next time that next shift comes around for work to make sure you get the money to pay for this, and it just feels like this hamster real cycle.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I like to tell people just like, do you have the basics?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are you sleeping right?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Why aren't you sleeping right?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you need medication?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do we need to get a physical exam?
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Just like all those basic things.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there's no there's no therapist that's gonna do better than that.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: But how do you navigate that when your basic needs don't feel as important as important as your ability to provide?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's my whole work right there, is it feels like almost trying to convince people that your needs are more important than your ability to provide so your family can survive.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's very complex.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: And something that comes up to me is is like I think you and I are both um I'll say fans of of like the human condition, right?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: And and like the I think there's so much beauty in like the full spectrum, right, of of the human condition.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: Because it can be so beautiful and it can be heartbreaking and it can be sad at the same time.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's a really great point.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: You're talking about like a a way through that is to understand that there are going to be times within your story that isn't all Instagram real-worthy.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: The real keys to learn how to love those.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously, you don't want to stay, you know, in a in a fight or flight, you know, kind of a space or constant struggle, like, you know, get your bread up or whatever it is that you need to do.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: But for one that strippers in the club, something, shit, dude.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, as far as like other resources, like I know people probably know now, like 988, if you dial 988 is the National Suicide Hotline, so you don't have to have that long-ass number programmed on your phone.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: You can just dial 988.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: That was a huge win.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that was passed.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, usually they can also set you up with particular resources.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: So those like um volunteers slash counselors on on those phones are not only trained extensively, but they also like I I've had people reach out to me, prospective clients say that their 988 counselor gave me your name.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: They searched by zip code on psychology today for you.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, they they're in a place where they're able to resource.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: I thought they were like fans of Chad.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, you should go see Chad across the no, no, no, I'm not I ain't like that, bro.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh I'm I ain't Tiger Woods, I'm Tiger Wishy Could.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I'm saying?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm actually I probably shouldn't talk about Tiger Woods right now, but he's not the epitome of male performance right now.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: With every topic that we've talked about, I mean, in this whole season and this whole podcast, like we don't have all the answers.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like we really don't.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: I like the hope that one day I will, but I probably never will.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Just talking about this particular topic, I think is obviously really important because um it's a real thing that's affecting lives either yourself or or people around you.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and trying to put our heads in the sand and pretend that it doesn't exist, I think would have been a disservice to our values with why we even started this podcast in the first place.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so yeah, I just want to thank you, Carlos, for being willing to talk about this.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: I know this is like, you know, my day-to-day work and field, and I'm a lot more um maybe, you know, trained or comfortable talking about it.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: But for you to come in here as as a friend, as as a loved one, as somebody who I really love and respect, um it's just really cool to be able to know that there are men out there like you that are willing to talk about this even when it's really tough.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I thank you as well for for creating this alongside me, you know, and the entire season ha has been incredibly therapeutic.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'll send you a bill.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm just kidding.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's very therapeutic, this experience.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: In this specific moment, it's like art is imitating life a little too much for for my liking right now.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: There's always something new that I can like take away from the episodes myself.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so like it's it's it's a really cool experience to like not only be in it, creating it, but then also just like, oh, I can also like take a lot.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Learn from this.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: Learn from learn from this.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why it's so cool to know that there are real people out there listening to to these episodes.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that all of you are having real reactions and reflections also.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we say, like, hey, reach out to us, you know, drop a message to us, like that stuff's really, really important to us because it I think it'll help us not only inform our next season and and where we're going from here, but it helps us too.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: It helps us grow as and not as people, as podcasters, as as storytellers and crafters, thank you for listening as well for everyone that's out there.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: So we'll leave you with this question.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: In moments where you're not okay, do you know where to go or who to reach out to for support?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't, start working on that to be able to make sure that you do have the resources and the help that you need because because we all go through tough times and um they're bound to happen.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd rather us be prepared.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: Before we wrap, we want to take a moment to say that this is our final episode of season two.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: So we are pressing pause for a little bit as Chad steps into a new role, becoming a dad.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: Papa Chad era is officially loading.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: Woo! Woo woo!
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm it's getting down on the wire now.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I am really excited and I am very nervous, but I'm also very excited.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: With that, uh, I'll be taking some paternity leave from work, and then we'll also be back with the podcast.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we'll be back with Growing Pains this July in a couple months with season three.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna be going even deeper as we're gonna continue to do throughout this podcast.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, next season, we're unpacking identity development and identity formation and who we are beneath all these roles and beneath all the expectations and everything we were taught to be.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: How can we better understand our identity formation and maybe parts of our identity that we're not even really clued into?
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so super excited about that.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think my sociological lens from my bachelor's days are gonna be very, very excited.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: In the meantime, if this season resonated with you, share it with a friend who might need it, leave a review, and catch up on old episodes.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: We appreciate you, and we'll be back soon.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, y'all.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: You mad, bruh?