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No One is Going To Save You (and Other Life Lessons): with Nicco Annan · QUESTION EVERYTHING

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: and I have conversations that put a new spin on pretty.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: This is pretty smart. Nico on In is TV's hbic, head,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: bitch and Charge. He's an actor, dancer, choreographer. He's been
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: successful at all of those things for years, but recently
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: he's shot onto everybody's TV screens. His portrayal of Uncle
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Clifford on the Stars drama Pee Valley has earned him
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: critical acclaim as well as nominations from the NAACP and
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Independent Spirit Awards. Now, before I dive into Nico, who
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: is so incredible, like truly just such a bright, dynamic
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: human being, I have to set the stage on the
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: show for anybody who hasn't seen it. Kee Valley is
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: set in check Lisa, Mississippi, and it follows the lives
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: of strip club dancers working at the popular strip club
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: called The Pink. On the show, Nico plays Uncle Clifford,
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: the non binary owner of The Pink. You might be
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: surprised to learn that Nico has been playing the role
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: for over ten years. First in the stage adaptation of
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Katori Hall's play Pussy Valley before the small screen version
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: ever existed, and now that it's on Stars, it's pushing
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: the norms of TV. Every episode is directed by a woman,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: and I think Nico's character is revolutionary for the LGBTQIA community.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: I don't say that lightly. If you watch the show,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: you know Uncle Clifford writes his own rules. Nico knows
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: a thing or two about that as well. The Detroit
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Bourn actor refuses to conform to a Hollywood template. Instead,
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: he's made a name for himself by embracing his individuality
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: and following his intuition. You know when you see someone
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: on screen and you just know this is the big
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: of a whole lot more for them. Well, that was
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: me when I laid eyes on Nico, and then we
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: met serendipitously. So Nico, usually I start these interviews with
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: questions about your childhood, but we met in a very
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: specific way.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: We did.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: I didn't even tell you this part of the story.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: So I was in Were we in Dallas or Houston?
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Now I will be lying to you if I even
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: tried to tell you what state we were in.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: We were tally in Texas, okay, I think we were
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: coming from Dallas.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: I can give you that. I have been to Dallas
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: a couple of times, you have.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: I tried to change that flight four times because I
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: had been waiting for I knew I was going.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: To wait for hours and to get back to LA.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Back to La. I could not change the flight, and
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: I was like, damn it, sitting waiting. I was kind
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: of annoyed. I get on the pla I watched my
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: makeup off in the bathroom at their coort and I
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: get on the plane and I had just finished season
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: two of Pea Valley, and all of a sudden, you
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: walk on the plane and you have your headphones on
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: and you put your stuff in the overhead compartment and
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: I go, that's not him. You sit down right next
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: to me, and I was like, he is that you?
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: And you were so sweet?
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, so were you. But I remember having my
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: headphones and I probably I think I probably even had
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: a hat or a hoodie. Yeah, because I get very cozy.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: I love like to be comfortable.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: I thought you just didn't want to talk to anybody.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: No, it's not like. I mean, I'm fixed too, and
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: I'm a big man. So It's like, I don't know
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: how much I could disappear, like true, Harry Potter, you
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: see me now you don't true.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Well, I ended up talking to you for like three
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: and a half hours.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: We did.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: It was great. But so now I'm going to start
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: with the how you grew up and all of that.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: Okay, these the official.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: Before Lau grew up in Detroit. Your dad wanted you
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: to go into computer science. Your mom supported your love
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: of the arts.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: She did.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: I got that from the Internet, not from our conversation.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: I was like, did we talk we talk about that? Okay,
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: that is true.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: Which parent are you most like as I age?
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: I'm like both of them in different ways, you know,
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: definitely like I feel like a lot of my spirit
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: and the fun, the people color, that's my mom, you know.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: My love for color and embracing that, that is all
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: from my mom. My dad, my work ethic. You know
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: my dad, I was working at a car wash from
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: when I was twelve. You know that. Yeah, he owned
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: a car wash. He bought a car wash that was
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: going to be the family legacy Motor City, Detroit. Entrepreneurship
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: has always been a part of my spirit. But I
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: was like Dad don't you want to open up a
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: theater club, something a little different than a car wash?
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: But hey, car wash and season one and season two,
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: so I knew what I was doing.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, was that your influence at
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: all just happenstance.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: That's all divine order.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: That is so funny because that scene, for anybody who
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: hasn't seen it, Season two opens with this like very
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: iconic scene. That's awesome. So you took a life changing
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: trip to Ghana when you were younger, and you said
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: it illuminated some things about life in the US that
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: wanted to hide from you. How did you see yourself
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: differently when you came back.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: When I first came back from Ghana, I remember feeling
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: like a little bit like the Prince of Zamunda and
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: coming to America. So I felt like I was a
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: little bit of like prince. I came got it, even
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: though that's a fictitious place, right, and I was coming
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: from this very real place. It gave me a sense
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: of pride. I knew who I was, and I think
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: probably because I was teased so much by my fellow
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: classmates going there. It was like, oh, you know, going
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: to sleep with the Cheetah and you're gonna be with
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: the lions. And I remember literally having a little moment
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: on the plane as a child with my dad. My
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: ears were they wouldn't pop because we were flying for
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: so long, and I remember I was just crying and
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: he was just like, what's wrong. And I was like,
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: I don't want to sleep with the lions. I don't
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: want to and he was like, what are you talking about?
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: And I said, Michael told me, you know, Michael, Michael Knox.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: Michael Knox had got into my head. And that was
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: one of the first times that I saw my father
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: really hurt. And I saw him hurt. He was like, son,
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: it's not like that. It is nothing like that. And
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: so when I got there and I saw what it
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: was like, and I saw people like dapping each other
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: up the same way that you know, we said hey,
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: what's up. You know, here in the States, I heard
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: Aliyah her music, I heard Biggie Small's in the midst
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: of all of the high life music and the jazz
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: and the drums, and I was like, oh, it's the same.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: Like the things that we do here in the States,
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: or sometimes things that are demonized are like, you know,
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: y'all should' hang out on the porch like that and
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: on the stoop. It's like, but they do that back
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: in Kina. Oh, so we really it's a spiritual thing.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: So why I knew that at ten to eleven. I
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: didn't have the words to articulate it, but I did
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: feel that. So when I came back to the States
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: and was back in Detroit, I was like, you can't
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: tell me nothing. I was like, you know, I've been somewhere.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: I got a stamp on my passport.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: It's true, though, I think sometimes in America they almost
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: like misrepresent Africa at least how I think, like the
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: history books I read growing up, right, And so then
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: now with social media you can see things differently, But
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: you had that in real life.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: I had it in real life with my own eyes.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: So I'm interested that you said people were teasing you
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: because you were prom king. So explain that.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: Well, okay, So if you don't know smart, funny, Okay.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: So this is something that I've always known all of
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: my life. It's something I never had like a big
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: coming out moment or an AHA epiphany. This is literally
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: how I came to this planet. You know, well, thank you.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: I thank you, thank you, thank you, as did you
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: thank you. But I was teased a lot, you know,
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: in school. I think also because I was a big
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: guy and my body was not like athletic and six
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: pack and hard muscles. I was more soft, cuddly, teddy bear,
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: you know. And then here I am in dance class
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: and I'm at the ballet bar and I'm who's this
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: big guy doing this ballet? Wait? And he can really dance?
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: And whoa, come on? You know. And then you have
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: nerve to be smart because I was very academic, you know,
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: I was in my mind, I was like, okay, yes, sure,
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: straight a's. In high school, I did run for homecoming king. Okay,
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: homecoming king. And then there was the the football players
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: that were running against me, and they it was it
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: was going to be some stuff.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: And they lost.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: They did lose.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: I love this.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: They did lose. They did lose, but it was a
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: whole threat they had threatened. I heard them. I was moved.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: It was I was going to fourth period English. Miss
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: Peggy Bowdenmiller. I love her.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: You have an incredible memory.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: That's how I know my line. I remember clear as
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: that I was walking up the stairs going from third period,
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: going to fourth period English, and literally I heard Art
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: ar Net it was his name that we called him Art.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: He was on the football team, and he was saying
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: to one of the other players, You're like, yo, if
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: that fag when you know, it's gonna be some shit
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: going down, And I was like, hmmm. I turned around
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: and I went down to the security booth and I
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: told Miss Tyner, the head of security at the time.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: I told her and mister Wilcox. I said, listen, I
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: just heard some stuff. I just want you to know
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: I ain't no punk, So if some go down, I
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: just want to know that I told an adult. But
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: I'm defending myself, so let it be what it's gonna be.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: And then I went back to this bot Tom was
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: class and that was that. And so then that rest
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: of the week it was a lot of the teasing
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: and all the things like that. So at the actual homecoming, okay,
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: when they were announcing everyone, like long story short, I
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: was extremely nervous because I really didn't know what was
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: gonna happen. But I was ready to defend myself from
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: Detroit and the streets. Prepare you for certain things. You
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: understand what I mean.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: I don't necessarily, but I can't imagine.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: Only with a smile. Yeah, with a smile. That's why,
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: you know, that's a little more deadly, you know. So
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: what happened was I felt like, this is my bodyguard moment.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: I say, like Whitney Houston and the bodyguard. Yeah, because
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: they called my name and I heard all of this rumble.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: It was like all and I didn't know if it
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: was cheers, if it was booze, if it was the
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: rumbling on the floor. And they said nico on and
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: I was like and I was ready cause I didn't
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: know somebody was about to rush me, like what was she?
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: And literally I got crowned and then I had to leave.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: Why because the principal said that because I because I
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: had won, it was causing too much of a disturbance.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: So with my crown and my sash and my best
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: friend Danielle really yeah, her name was Danielle.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: So you took your crown and your sash and your
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: best friend Danielle and you went to New York. When
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: did you move to New York?
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: I moved to New York directly after high school. I
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: graduated in May, and I went to New York. I
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: think it was August or late July. For orientation, my
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: mother drove me across country.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: I was reading that two percent of actors are paid
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: two percent. So you're making a living as an actor
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: in New York City, which is pretty room and you
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: start doing a play eventually called Pussy Valley.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and to be honest with you, like, for
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: anyone that's watching this, I did, for real, I used
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: all of my gifts. I did not. I'm an actor,
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: but I'm also a choreographer. I'm also a dancer. I
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: also sing, you know. I like to do musicals. I
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: like to do comedies. I like to do straight plays,
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: straight plays being plays without music. Right. Not heterosexual, although
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: most of the characters I will tell you were quote
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: unquote heterosexual, you know, they were not necessarily identifiable as
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: gay or anyone on the LGBTQ plus spectrum. I was
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: trained during a time where they said that, you know,
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: in order to be an official actor, you know, you
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: had to play straight, you know, and that your gay
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: could not be clockable. And there was a moment in
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: undergrad that really stood out where my daddy Warbucks Israel Hicks.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: He was the man who brought me to the program.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: He went around. This was our senior year, and he
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: went around and he just told everyone, say your name,
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: and I said my name, and he was basically talking
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: about type and he was talking about like the kind
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: of roles and what you can expect from the business.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: And I had just got done in acting class. I
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: had played like this homeboy his name was Blue in
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: Ceremonies and Dark Old Men by Lannie Elder, a classic.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: And he was telling me what I will in front
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: of everyone, like the kind of roles that he can
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: see me playing. And one of the other brothers, another
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: black guy in the company, he was like, that ain't right.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: You know, Nico just played you know, this homeboy. He
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: was playing like, you know, a homie and a little thug.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying. He could do that Da
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: da da da da. And he shut him up. He
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: said what's your name? And his name was sod and
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: he said, what's your name, asked me mine and I
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: said Nico Anen and he said that's not a thug.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: He said, that's a distinguished man. You gotta know your name,
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: no who you are, and know what you can play,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: what you house that will save you a whole lot
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: of peace in this business. So I was doing that,
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: and you know, and I knew that, Oh, if I'm
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: looking for a job and no one is calling me
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: as an actor, let me go and be in the
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: chorus and being ain't misbehaving, and let me go and
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: be in ragtime and let me go and be Oh
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: I want to do a straight play. Let me go
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: do the breakout at the Flea theater down you know,
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: that's where I met Sigourney Weaver and her husband Jim,
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: you know, directed me. It was just so much that
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: I think because I had left home, because I had
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: left the comforts of home, I didn't have that same
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: kind of a safety net. So I was like, it's
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: time to fly.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: And you just went for it.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Were there ever moments where you thought, what am I doing?
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Why did I go for this?
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: No? Like I didn't know what I was doing all
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: the time. Yeah, but I knew that I was doing
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: what I was supposed to be doing, if that makes sense. Yeah,
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: not only because was I happy. Like I would work
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: long hours, long hours, you know, and then get on
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: the train, you falling asleep on the train, and you
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: get up and you go home and you're like, I'm
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: only here for four hours and then I'm going back
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: to the next situation. But I loved it. I loved it.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: And my mom said today literally as I was on
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: the phone with her earlier today, she said, you said
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: this at nine years old, because you know the Critics'
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: Choice Awards that just was announced. And I was like, yeah.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: So I sent her the article and she was like
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: I was reading this and I was just like, wow,
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: look at you. You said this. I said it when
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: I was like nine or ten. I remember we were
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: having like a come on, it's a moment. We were
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: having a barbecue dinner, you know, my dad going out
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: and gotten some barbecue and we had sat out on
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: the porch and he had said, what do you want
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: to do when you grow up? And I remember I
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: had my little chicken and I was eating some coslag
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: and I was like, I want to see my name
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: in lights. I didn't really know what that meant.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: You know, that is fascinating because that's also from the
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: conversation we had on the plane, not really like the
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: name in lights feels like I want to be famous,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: and you actually like, are a master of your craft. Yeah,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: the fame is just sort of a product of that. Yeah,
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: which is interesting. But as a kid, that's what you say, right.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: That's what you say because you just see the name
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: on the marque in your life. Oh, that's going to
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: mean something when you see Nico on it. Oh you
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: must be somebody.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: What do you want people to think when they see it?
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: In lights?
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: Now? Light? I want I think I want people to
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: think light, vibe, energy. I think it transcends a role.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: I think it transcends just one thing, because I know
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: I'm not just one thing. I know that I am many.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: But I feel like as people have gotten to and
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: getting to know me outside of Uncle Clifford, I think
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: that people are seeing something you know, Yeah, and I
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: feel like that's for me. It's also a part of
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: like how I show up and why I show up
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: the way that I do, and why I was so
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: adamant about like not being my character outside in the
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: world because I love me and I want people. I
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: want people to see me. You will see me, do
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: you understand what I mean? And you will also respect me,
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: and you will also respect the characters that I portray.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: That Uncle Clifford is such an amazing, amazing character. I'm
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: very well aware that that is like it's like lightning
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: in a jar.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: It is, you know, I want to get into it,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: but I don't want to get into Uncle Clifford just yet.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: Go ahead, go ahead, hit your life.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: So I read something that kind of upset me. I
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: want to know if it upset you or not, because
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: I know you have thicker skin than I do.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: Oh oh, where are we going?
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: You were told you needed to lose weight in order
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: to be on TV. How did you receive that at
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: the time? And then how do you look at it now?
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: When that manager said that to me, I wasn't I
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: wasn't really phased, And I'm gonna tell you why because
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: I as well listen. I guess it was a part
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: of the training as a dancer. I was told, you're
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: too big, you can't do you know, contemporary dance, so
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: you had to lose weight for that to be a
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: concert dancer. Because that's where I knew to go. Because
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: of those comments, my brain shifted to choreography, and in choreography,
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: long story short, I saw a death a hearing impaired
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: dance troop in high school. They changed my life because
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: I was amazed that they could not hear, but they
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: were all in Saint and they could feel it feel.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: They literally felt the music and the sub wolfers. They
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: have extra subwolfers for the floor so that they could
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: feel the rhythm. And I was like, oh, so you
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: could do anything. And I thought this very warped thought,
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: but I said, oh, God forbid, if I ever become
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: a paraplegic, I would still be able to dance.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: I'll tell much you love the art.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: I still saw myself in a chair dancing. That kind
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: of changed my mind. So when the manager then said
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: that to me years years, years later, we just said,
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: I've always been met with no, you know, not just
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: oh you didn't get the job. You didn't get the job.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: It was because oh you're too big. No, oh you're
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: too gay. Oh no your gap is too much. No
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: you're not a leading man. No. And I knew if
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: I just That's why I always tell people, get in
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: touch with your why.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: So you have to tell yourself. Yes, yes, it's very
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: hard when everyone else is telling.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: You mm hmmm mm hmm, but when you know why
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: you're doing it. I didn't do this for fame. I
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: didn't because fame was not what it is now when
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: I started, Thank god, you know, because it probably would
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: have turned me away, you know what I mean. But
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: so when people say things now, I mean, I'm human,
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: you know it hurts, But sometimes I honestly forget I
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: should be like, oh wait, I'm supposed to be offended
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: by that. Sorry, let me say something about that, because
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: you know, at first I really wasn't you know.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, So the New York Times wrote a piece
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: about Pussy Valley. Sex may sell the stars, strip club drama,
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: but at the heart it's a potent lyrical story about
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: hard work. That was a very interesting statement to me
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: because part of I mean, I love the show for
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: a lot of reasons. One of the things I thought
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: was I took a television criticism class in college. The
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: professor said Shameless had just come out, and he said,
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: this is the first show I've ever seen about poor
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: people on TV in America.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: He didn't think about all in the family.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: So he's thought about all in the family, and he said,
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: married with children, but those are sitcoms for the most part, right, Yeah,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: this was the first show, like it's kind of a
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: drama about what it's like to be poor. Pussy Valley
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: is one of the only shows that I've seen set
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: in the South and also about lower income and I
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: forgot about the hard work. He's right, everybody thinks about
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: the sex. No one's thinking about the hard work.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's a wonderful space to be able to
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: articulate the culture, you know, and all of the demographics
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: of the culture, because you know, you have people in
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: the show in Chuck Liifa our fictitious world that are
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: of an upper echelon, you know, whether that's like the
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: coach of the football team, whether that's some of the rappers,
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: you know, whether that's even Uncle Clifford at a certain
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: point in time. But you know, mismanagement of funds, you know,
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: because sometimes when you don't have to have a but
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: you know, sometimes you mismanage those funds because you are
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: striving for another type of acceptance or give me this
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: type of accreditation because I am worthy and I'm worth it,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: you know. So yeah, yeah, it's a beautiful, beautiful love
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: letter to the people and to the South.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: So I heard you describe it as cheers and a
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: strip club, which made me laugh. For people who haven't
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: seen Pussy Valley, Okay, yeah, how would you describe Uncle.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: Clifford, I would say Uncle Clifford is the general. I
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: would say Unclifford is the mother, hen, the militant father,
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: the sexy lover, the entrepreneur. Uncle Clifford.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: A lot of things.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: She is like what they say, hitting thrice on a
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Saturday morning, all the sunny clipsing on a on the
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: witching hour. Uncle Clifford is the non binary proprietor of
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: the Pink, and the Pink is the owner. It's the
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: club that the doors open and you get to meet
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: all of these characters, the workers of the club and
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: the patrons that come in and out the doors.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: So I think people, I don't know how many shows
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: come out a year with streaming hundreds, there's thousands of characters.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: Rarely does the world grab on to a character. This
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: country has grabbed on to Uncle Clifford. It's so special. Yes,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: what do you think it is.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: Of what makes people grab onto her? Yes, Oh, I
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: think it's I think it's the everything. I think it's
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: the no limits. I think it's the Oh. I think
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: it's the audacity. You know. I think that the character
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: is just so bold and free, and I think that
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: Uncle Clifford can embody a lot of things that people
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: wish that they could or that they do in different forms.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: You know, I think that they also get because the
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: show is Katori Hall is so specific in showing your
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: angel and your demon, your mess and your beauty. You know,
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: there's always juxtaposition. So even in all of the regalia,
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: even through all of the shine, you're still going to
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: get that grittiness. You're still going to get to be
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: able to see the downside or the flip side, not
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: even the downside, the flip side of the character, and
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: be able to see Uncle Clifford in pensive spaces, to
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: see Uncle Clifford like struggle through the process, the grind,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: the hustle, the hurt, the yearning, all of the things
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: that we go through. While you can be fabulous and
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: you can also be beat down and quote unquote just you,
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: you know in your skin, Uncle Clifford inspires me. Uncle
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: Clifford inspires me. I feel a little bit sometimes maybe
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: like if you have like what was the who was
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: that the Beyonce head Sasha fears, Yeah, something like that,
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: it's a whole another persona that comes over me. I can't,
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: I can't, Like it's hard I can't come in and
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: out of character in between.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: That's my next question.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's too hard. It is too hard physically with
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: the nails, with the hair, my whole body changes.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the way you walk changes, it's all.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: Of it changes, and in turn that then changes my
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: physical And I remember after season one, I got really
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: small and I I went to Macy's and I had
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: I was getting a shirt for some party or something
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: like that afterwards, and I put on I got my
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: normal size, and I was like, I got me an
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: excel and I was like, oh, this is a little
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: too big. Okay. Then I went and I got I
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: got a large, and it was too big. And I
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: was like, I put the large on while you're out
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: by the the racks. And because I was like, oh yeah,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: this is work, I put it on top of my
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: T shirt and I was like, yo, this is still big.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: And I went I grabbed that medium and the medium
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: fit and it blew my mind and blew my mind
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: and I got mad. I got mad because I was like, yo,
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: I'm a big boy, what are you talking about. I'm
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: ah like this wait is for the pushing babybody. And
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, you lost your thickness.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: I love this so much.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but we actually, like we had conversations. Katy is very,
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: very transparent. She's extremely transparent, and she's like, this world
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: needs to represent real people. So don't go getting small
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: like Hollywood small. I need you to eat. I need
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: you to be a real person. And so when you
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: see like Mercedes up on the pole and she stops
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: her thigh, listen exactly, you know, and you see that,
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: you see a jiggle you because that's real. And I
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: think that people also love that. Yeah, you know, you know,
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: people paying for what we got naturally.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I want to talk about theater versus TV. Okay,
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: what does being a theater actor teach you that TV doesn't.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Being a theater actor teaches you a lot in terms
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: of projection. I always talk about, you know, the vocal
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: projection and your emotional projection to reach the balcony and
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: stuff like that.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: In the last row kind of have to pull it
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: back for TV, right you do.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think theater really teaches you how to
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: work a room and to work a crowd because you
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: can be in the scene here with your scene partner
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: and you hear the audience gasp, or you're hearing them
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: laugh and you know you have to hold for laughter,
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: or you know when you have them in your head
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: you can feel it. Yeah. Yeah, I learned that from
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: improv in high school. I was in an improv troop
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: and I remember my teacher Ms. McCormick. I was getting
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: heckled actually in one of our improv shows. And again
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: it was the teasing from being dark skin and being
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: the dancer and being a big guy and like yo,
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: big boy, yoda. So that's why sometimes when the blogs
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: or somebody says that and I'm like, oh, you have
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: no idea, right, I've been here, done that, but you know, again,
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: you're still a human being. But I learned, oh, no
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: one is going to save me, because they were teachers
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: in that audience. You know, they brought their classes, you know,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: that would come and see the shows, and none of
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: the teachers would get on the students that were heckling.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: And I had told the director, I was like, you know,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: you got to say something like we're up here, we're
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: trying to do this show. And she was like, that's
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: not my job, Nico, that's your job. And it was
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: one of the best lessons.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: That when you said, no one is going to save me.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: All I thought was when I realized that too. And
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: I think when you realize that in your life, everything changes.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Was it life or in your career?
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: It was like mostly financially right, because I realized, like
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: I can't marry my way out of it. I can't
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: manifest my way out of this, like I got me.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: No matter how intelligent I am, no matter how pretty
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: I am, none of it matters, None of it matters.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: I gotta do this and no one can do it
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: for me.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: I can get That's powerful it is. And I feel like,
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: you know, like that's when you learn your own like
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: your own conquest, and like it it got me, I'll
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: say it got me in touch with what I wanted.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: Even in the New York of it all. I could
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: have easily gone home and come back to Detroit, but
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: I didn't want to do that. I was like, why
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: would I do that? And I've sacrificed all these years
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: and people have sacrificed this money. It was not easy.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: You know. I was a middle class family, but we
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: were not well off. You know what I'm saying. I
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: was working over the summer, be very clear, working at
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: the car wash. I was scrubbing white walls. You know
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: what I'm saying, my own little wax zwe wax sauce situation.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: But I made it work, you know. So I think
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: that it teaches you how to hold on to who
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: you are and the moment in the room, and then
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: in TV it's intimate. It's really intimate, and knowing how
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: to just let people in.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be like so hyperbolic, but I
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: do believe this. I think that Uncle Clifford is a
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: revolutionary character for the LGBTQ community. Why I have never
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: seen a non binary character on TV presented as a
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: full person three sixty the way Uncle Clifford is. I
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: think about Will and Grace. That was a show that
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: I washed, like probably seventh eighth grade up. And I
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: always think, do people change laws or do laws change people?
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: Maybe a little bit of both. Right, I could make
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: an argument that that show helped change some laws. I
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: think like it brought the gay community into people's homes
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: and hearts. I think Uncle Clifford is doing that too.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Have you considered that at all?
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: I'm being still right now, because when you say stuff
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: like that, it's very touching. It's really awesome.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: It's probably hard to receive because you're in the middle
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: of it.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: It's not hard to receive. It's full. It's not a
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: hard thought to receive. It is overwhelming. Yeah, to receive,
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: I guess because I know that I'm a part of
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: something that is so much bigger than me. Yeah, you know,
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: And literally I'm just trying to do my part. And
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: I'm proud of us, not just as a team of
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: what we are creating with the show, but of how
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: people actually are receiving Uncle Clifford.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: Oh that's nice. I didn't think about that aspect.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's major. Danielle, like, I'm getting people that it
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: all started again in the pandemic of me receiving how
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: people got it. And I remember speaking to Trevelle Traville
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: as a journalist and it's also non binary, and was
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: like my fourth or fifth interview coming for the show.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: We were on our press junket and it was all
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: zoom and my first question was like, so what did
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: you think Now? This is after me playing Uncle cliffor
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: on stage, this is after all of that. I've gone
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: through the theater component and having talkbacks with audience members
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: on the show. The process blah blah blah blah blah blah.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: But this was a different entity. It was the three
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: sixty of seeing her. It was the episode. It was
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: all the things, and I was like, did we get
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: it right? And Javelle was like, oh, bitch, I got
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: it more right. And I think it's the three sixty
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: component of it it is. I think it's being able
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: to see Uncle Clifford as a full person. I think
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: it's being able to see these women as full beings,
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: these sex workers, not be just trapped into oh you
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: just dance on a pole, but you get to see
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: the why behind it all. You also get to see
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: the ups, the downs, the fight and the flight.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: So yes, yeah, glads. Twenty twenty two, We're on TV
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: report found that eleven point nine percent of all characters
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: on primetime TV or LGBTQ, which is a record high
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: but still pretty low. How do you feel about the
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: representation that exists right now?
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: I think that it's there. We need more, and I
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: say more in all aspects. I think people can be
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: very limited in what they think quote unquote diversity is.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: I think that there's different types of people, different looks
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: that exist and deserve time in the sun. Know. I
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: also think that I hope that through my portrayal of
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: Uncle Clifford, people are inspired to write. And when I
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: say that to to to write, Yeah, write what you think?
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: I know what you mean, right, what you see?
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: So I read that you said the key ingredient to
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: harnessing Uncle Clifford's power was intimacy.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: Why intimacy because you always think that, you know, people
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: see you from a distance, even just as a gay man.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: People think they will come at you easily with you know,
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: the pronoun girl and you know, call you great, and
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: I'm like, whoa hold on, Yeah, We're not comfortable like that,
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: you know. And I think people see Uncle Clifford and
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: they think automatically like a snap queen. Yeah. You know.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: I think that people think that because you're gay, that
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: you're automatically one thing, you know, whether that's a hyper
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: feminine or hyper masculine, regardless of your gender or your identity.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: You know. I think that people have there's very limited
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: scopes on how they see people.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: Okay, Katori Hall come, she created the play and then
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: the show. I have to tell you, the show made
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: me think of strippers totally differently. You touched on it
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: a little bit okay, but Katory in an interview said
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: she wanted to show exotic dancers in their full humanity.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: I am so invested in these women's lives. Why but
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: I'm not the only one. Like on Shade Room, with
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: the second season closed, the comments were hilarious. They were like,
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: I'm going to chuck a Lisa if X, Y and
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: Z doesn't have been like we have all decided this
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: is a real place with real people. The investment is wild.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: But I think the conversation around sex work in the
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: last few years has changed a bit. It's like more
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: curiosity instead of criticism. I would say.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: I think also with only fans and yes tho those
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: online streaming platforms or you know or subscription yes platforms
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: has really changed how people view sex work. You know.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you think that the that Katori choosing all
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: female directors plays a role in that and how.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: The women are seen? Yeah, I think that how Katori
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: and the writers write the show, I think that that
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: is how that affects mostly how the audience receives these women,
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: because just like you're seeing three sixty of Uncle Clifford,
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: you're seeing three sixty of Mercedes, you know, in her
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: plight to being the mother, you know, because.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: They shoot a lot of Mercedes scenes. They shoot like
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: she's up on the top of the pole and they
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: shoot under her, and you're like, oh my god, is
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: she going to fall for some reason? That's like always
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: how you feel. But you're not really thinking of her sexually.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: You're thinking of her athletically. You're thinking of like her
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: daughter are at home, you know, like you are seeing
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: her differently. Yeah, based on the way it's shot.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: I think that you know, that is what do we
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: call it?
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: The male gaze?
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, the female gaze? Yeah? And I know she asks
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: the directors, you know, like what is your idea of
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: the female gaze? You know, sometimes people don't have an answer,
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: and usually those.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: People who don't don't get hired.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: There you go. But I think that having the all
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: female directors was essential, especially in the beginning, because it
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: was creating the language for the show, you know, so
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: that you weren't just looking at TNA. You know, you
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: can appreciate a body, whether it's male, whether it's female,
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: whether it's dark, whether it's light, whether it's thick or
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: it's thin. You can appreciate the body for what it
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: looks like, but also for what it can do, Yeah,
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: and what it has been through. You know. So sometimes
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: you know, she uses the analogy that the poll is
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: sometimes fallen feels like rising, and rising feels like falling.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: So that metaphor of the pole that cinematically she definitely
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: wanted to capture, you know, and I feel like the
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: directors do a great job with it.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: You said, I had the audacity to dream something and
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: it came to fruition. That was a really beautiful quote.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: What's the bravest thing you've ever.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Done in life? What literally just came to my mind
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: was when I was a child and I stood up
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: to the bully, you know, the neighborhood bully that was
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: trying to steal my bike at some point.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: Wow, how old were you?
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Fourteen? Yeah? It was fourteen met John Kareem and Bill
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: had We were riding our bikes and skateboards in the
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: neighborhood just on a Saturday afternoon, and then you know,
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: the whole school drug dealer came by and stuff like that.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: It was like, oh, yo, where you go looking for Oh,
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: that's right around the corner, you know, just kids but
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: it was at the point where we weren't supposed to
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: leave in front of the house now, like wait, can
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: you show us? And it was because it was a
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: group of them. I was like, y'all, let's just right
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: down here, just go ahead, and so we wound up.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: They coursed us and we got to the corner. Around
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: the corner put them, got off the bike, pulled the
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: gun out. It was like, get off the bike, and
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: I was like, no, get off the bike. I said, no, Daniel,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: I had bought this bike working at the car wash.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: I was gonna say, why did you not get off?
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: Because I bought the bike. That's my bike. What are
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: you talking about?
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: And then what happened?
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: People? He caught the gun back and then so I
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: threw the bike at him. I did some matrix, got
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: off the bike and like the rope, the jump rope
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: that you know Bill was using that we were pulling
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: around like cut him in the leg. And it was
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: so dramatic in slow motion. But I was a boocket.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: That is very brave. I guess there's a saying that
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: things fall apart so that better things can come together.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: What are you glad didn't work out?
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: I am so so glad I did not stay in Detroit,
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: and not because Detroit is a bad place. I'm just
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: glad that I bet on me. I'm so glad that
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: I didn't stay in New York because I only left
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: New York because I said, you know what, this season
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: is done. I want more. I moved here to la
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: I did not have an agent. I did not have
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: a job that brought me here. I came with me
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: and my talent. I'm glad that I I just I
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: keep listening to me in each iteration of life of
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: like what's next?
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: What song do you always sing in the shower?
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: Mmm? Oh? That depends on the day and where I'm going.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: I use music as my timer.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: I did see on the plane you were listening to
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: the Beyonce album. Did look over?
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I need a screen protector.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah you do.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: I couldn't. Oh those ain't like that. No, but that Beyonce,
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: that Renaissance album.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: I think we all, you know, we always want everything
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: right now, right now, right now? What's taking so long?
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: Why is it going to y'all? It's taking the same
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: amount of time to shoot Pee Valley that it takes
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: to shoot Succession six months to write, six months to shoot,
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: three to five to edit, you know, and then your
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: networks have to say, oh, well, we needed to come
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: out this time because these shows are ending. We need
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: to like, it's a business. That's what it's called show business.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: But sometimes sometimes you know, people are are a little antsy.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: This is so embrassing. But when I was younger, I
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: would watch Usher perform and I'd be like, if we
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: just met, he would fall in love without yeah, like
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: when he started taking his shirt off on. But like
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: I think, when we're younger, we all have these celebrities
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: that were like we would be best friends, or they
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: would love me. When you looked at Hollywood as a kid, I.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: This where you were going.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: Who were you like, David loved me.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you the truth. I'm going to
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: tell you the truth.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: This couch only accepts the truth.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: Alissa Milano, Yes, Alyssa Milano credit it was a Lissa
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: Milano because from Who's the Boss? Alissa Milano? The it
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: was the og I think it was the I think
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: it was the tomboy and her the like kind of
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: like the rough outsider kind of like you know what
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: I mean. And I went to I went to a
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: I went to a parochial school for middle school, and
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: there was this one white girl that was like amongst
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: all of us black kids. And her name was Jennifer White.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: Of course, okay, Jennifer White. And I was just like,
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: Jennifer is cute. And my mom was like, you like Jennifer.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: I was like, no, I don't like Jennifer, but Jennifer
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: is cute, you know. And with Alissa Milano, I remember
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: going into Spencer's Gifts at the mall and would I
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: would get her posters, and so I had her posters
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: in my room with along you know, with Michael Jackson
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: and new Edition and stuff like that.
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: This is incredible context.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: Like so that's why I'm laughing as you were saying that,
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: and I'm saying, I'm going to tell the truth. She
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: was my first poster of like like a star.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: That is incredible. Yeah, she would be so flattered, I
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: know it. Okay, what is a book that you've read
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: that changed your life? Something you think everyone should read?
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: The Bible?
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: That's a good answer.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: It's a book that I keep reading. It's a book
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: that I keep reading. It's a book that I don't
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: understand how people are confused with like loving people regardless
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: like where you come from and what you look like
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: and what you do. It's it literally says we all
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: fall short of the glory. That's everybody, everybody, But it
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: says that you should love. So that's the book that
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: I would say.
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: The smartest decision you've ever.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Made, the smartest decision I've ever made, getting the financial advisor.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: That's a good one. We do a card, pretty smart card.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: Okay, Oh yes, yes, okay. Can we get into this
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: packaging though? Can we get into the packaging? People, listen,
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: question everything, leave nothing unturned. I'm here for this. Fifty
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: two cards for deeper conversation. Pretty smart. I agree.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: I love you for that.
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm picking a card which everyone feels like it's yours.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm, this is it? This is it? Am I
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: reading it? Yes, I'm reading it.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: It's a good one.
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: Oh what is your defining characteristic? Now that might have
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: my telling you? Transparency?
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: Really you are full of surprises.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: I'm transparent. I don't have anything to hide.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: That is so interesting that characteristic.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you will always get the truth from me, Yeah,
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: you will always get the truth from me. I try.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: You know, if I'm not telling you the truth, it's
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: probably because you are not telling me the truth. And
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: I don't need to pour into your cup and you
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: feel it absolutely, and it's that it's it's the weirdest
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: combination because it comes from I think it comes from
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: annoying myself. I think it comes from having a spiritual connection.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: I think it also comes from teaching. I think it
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: also comes from choreography because I have to and having
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: to choreograph, especially non dancers, when you work in and
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: have to choreograph plays, and it's like you didn't audition
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: these people. You have to make this random person that
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: they have that someone else has said is the one.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: You have to make them look like the dancer, or
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: you have to make them move like the military person,
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: or you have to choreograph whatever this number is. So
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: my eye and my spirit has gotten very acclimated to
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: seeing where someone is what they're doing. How oh, you
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: have tension over here in this right shoulder. You have this,
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: and not that it's a bad thing, but you can
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: use that to the advantage of the character. So if
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: you have like this tension on this side, like maybe
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: that's where I say, like shake that off, and then
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: from that shaked off, that becomes a part of the
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: step you know or whatever. I don't know. Yeah, yeah,
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: it's just transparency. Yeah, thank you, babes. Yeah, I'm glad
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: that we sat next to each other. I'm glad I
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: got the first class ticket to do Okay.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: I want to thank the people that make the show possible.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: Colleen O'Neill, Jill Salama, Karrie O'Keefe, and Phil speed Tech. Okay,
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: you know what time it is. Today's a good day.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: To have a good day. I'll see you next week.