Latest / WOC and Allies: Business and Career Realtalk with Elaine Lou Cartas / 74: How To Be A Gentle Parent With Boundaries With Justine David

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74: How To Be A Gentle Parent With Boundaries With Justine David · WOC and Allies: Business and Career Realtalk with Elaine Lou Cartas

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Or are you a parent?
0:01
SPEAKER_01: Then you've probably heard of gentle parenting.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: It's basically the opposite of how a lot of us millennials were raised, including myself.
0:10
SPEAKER_01: You know, the shame, blame, punishment.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: Don't do that.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: Don't touch that.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: And you had no idea why you were yelled at.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: You were just a kid.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: Gentle parenting is the opposite of the shaming and blaming.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: It's where we use empathy and language.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: Yet sometimes we see parents who take gentle parenting to an extreme where they have no boundaries and are completely passive with their child's behavior.
0:38
SPEAKER_01: You know the parents I'm talking about.
0:40
SPEAKER_01: So how do you balance both gentle parenting and boundaries?
0:46
SPEAKER_01: Well, we deep dive into that.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: Also, this episode is not just for parents.
0:51
SPEAKER_01: It's also for non-parents, which is obviously everyone else, including myself, when it comes to communication, including romantic relationships or a relationship with our family and friends.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: So let's drop the beat.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: Hey, I'm Elaine Lu Karthas.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm a business and career coach for women of color and allies.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: LA Weekly awarded me the number one thought leader, and Apple News named me one of the top five business coaches.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: Done doing the most as a woman of color or ally, and you want to create your own definition of success and happiness?
1:29
SPEAKER_01: Well, grab your coffee tea or boba and let's do some business and career real talk.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: Hey, legacy leaders.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: So I have my client and friend, Justine David.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: We are both addressed like Steve Jobs today, apparently.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: Wearing the black turtleneck.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm wearing Patagonia black.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: But, anyways, so Justine is here.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: Justine is an occupational therapy graduate from USC.
2:00
SPEAKER_01: Go, Trojans.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm saying this sarcastically because my partner went to USC and all his friends.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: So there's so much pride in that school.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: And Justine shares her knowledge with educators and physicians through workshops and presentations on neurodiversity.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: Her office is located in Pasadena, which I used to live in, and I missed that town.
2:18
SPEAKER_01: And I know you work with a lot of parents and kids doing parenting, coaching, and trained birth doula, which I didn't know that, by the way.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: In my earlier years before I started my practice, I was doing birth doula.
2:31
SPEAKER_00: But it's a lot of work.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: You're always on call.
2:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: Now, and then what?
2:35
SPEAKER_01: You came back from a trip.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: Where did you go, Justine?
2:39
SPEAKER_00: I went to Patagonia in Argentina.
2:42
SPEAKER_01: That's the jacket I'm wearing.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: It was amazing.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: I really reflected on my life.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: It's one of those things when you're immersed in nature and you're like, wow, I feel small in a good way that my problems aren't so bad.
2:56
SPEAKER_01: We should, we should have probably done like a separate podcast episode, or we could maybe like, you know, put it in here because you went to Patagonia and then I went to Tanzania.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: And when you're in nature, like you said, you're just like, why are we complaining about the problems we have?
3:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it definitely gives you some perspective.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: But it was amazing.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: I loved it.
3:13
SPEAKER_01: To change gears, we're here to talk about how to be a gentle parent with boundaries.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: And ironically, Justine was like, wait, this is bugging me.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: I don't even know how gentle parenting started.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: So, based off of Google, I would actually love for you to share, even based off your professional experience, what is gentle parenting and why has it gotten popular recently?
3:37
SPEAKER_01: And also, gentle parenting is also known like as conscious parenting too.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: So I would love for you to share.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:43
SPEAKER_00: So gentle parenting was first coined by Sarah Aklill Smith.
3:49
SPEAKER_00: She's actually not a psychologist or a therapist, but a mother of four kids.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: And she just wrote a bunch of different books.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: One of them is coined as gentle parenting, but a lot of her theories and her strategies come from attachment theory, which became really popular around the 50s and 60s.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: And so what gentle parenting is, essentially what it is, is how can you respond to your child that has respect, empathy?
4:17
SPEAKER_00: Also instead of demanding or reprimanding, you're offering them choices to make better choices while ensuring that your expectations and your boundaries are still in place.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: And so anecdotically, since the start of the pandemic, a lot of parents have come to me since they need a lot of help figuring out, okay, what's really behavioral?
4:40
SPEAKER_00: What should I really treat?
4:41
SPEAKER_00: What should I really target?
4:42
SPEAKER_00: What kind of language do I use?
4:44
SPEAKER_00: How do I redirect them in a way that I don't traumatize them?
4:48
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe I'm triggered.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: How do I stop myself from being triggered?
4:52
SPEAKER_00: So a lot of what I do in parent coaching is helping them process all of that.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: You know, like this is yes, this part, this behavior is behavioral.
5:01
SPEAKER_00: And then this stuff is just them being for, or let's say it's related to their sensory processing.
5:06
SPEAKER_00: So how can you show them grace and compassion?
5:08
SPEAKER_00: Or is this like the hill that you want to die on?
5:10
SPEAKER_00: You got to pick and choose your battles here.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: So that's what I do a lot in parent coaching.
5:15
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I answered your question, but I kind of was off on a tangent.
5:19
SPEAKER_01: No, it's okay.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know if I shared this story with you.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I am not a parent yet.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: I do want to be one, but I was I was in like Tahoe.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: Did I tell you this story?
5:30
SPEAKER_01: Like in one of our sessions?
5:32
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I was in Lake Tahoe.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: My niece is maybe four at the time.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: There's three big Filipino families and a huge Airbnb, three floors, right?
5:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, or my cousin and her family, which includes my goddaughter, is in the first floor and I'm all the way in the third floor.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: And as we all know, babies know how to yell and scream to get your attention.
5:53
SPEAKER_01: And I was able to hear all the way on the third floor.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: So I ran down.
5:56
SPEAKER_01: And Nin Nang means godmother in dialogue.
6:00
SPEAKER_01: And so I could hear her crying, and it was so instinctual for me.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, babies and kids are like ye high, they're really short.
6:08
SPEAKER_01: So I crouched down the same height as her, like kneeled, and I was like, what's wrong?
6:12
SPEAKER_01: She's like, mommy and daddy want me to put my shoes on.
6:15
SPEAKER_01: I do not want to put my shoes on.
6:17
SPEAKER_01: And we're about to get ready to go on like this very short hike, and you know, it's not a stable ground.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: And then I was just very I just spoke to her in a very gentle way, but gentle parenting is like, I know you don't want to put your shoes on, but we're gonna go outside and the ground is not even.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: And if you run and walk, because I know you love running, you might fall and get hurt.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: And your mommy and daddy and me don't want you to get hurt.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: Do you want to get hurt?
6:46
unknown: No.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we don't want you to get hurt.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: You don't want to get hurt.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: So can you put your shoes on?
6:53
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
6:54
SPEAKER_01: And then like she just hugged me.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, I did it right.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: I did it right, right?
6:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: Like she hugged me, and then like my cousin, my athe, athe means like older cousin, older sister.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: She's like, What did you do?
7:07
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, you just have to talk to them, like, explain it, not like a command.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like micromanaging, like as a boss, right?
7:15
SPEAKER_01: Like, go do this.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I don't know why I need to do that.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: Go put your shoes on.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: Why?
7:20
SPEAKER_01: And then you have to explain it to them.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it's true.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: So, and I think this is a lesson for most relationships is you know, you have to validate how they're feeling.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: You gotta meet them at their level.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: You have to use language that they're able to understand.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: Also, if they're like completely dysregulated, right, and they're having a tantrum or crying, you have to work on consoling them first before you give them a directive.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, they're not gonna fully process it.
7:48
SPEAKER_00: Same thing if you're talking to your partner or your employee or a colleague or something like that.
7:52
SPEAKER_01: If they're stressing, are we about to do therapy right now, not just to be a parent?
7:56
SPEAKER_01: Or you'd have a partner, even family members.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: And like children are learning these life skills, these social emotional skills by you as their model.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: And so, right, so you essentially validated how she felt, right?
8:11
SPEAKER_00: You gave her a reason why it's important, and then you asked her a question and to even make it more like gentle parenting, right?
8:17
SPEAKER_00: Offer choices.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: So do you think you could put your shoes on, or I can help you?
8:21
SPEAKER_00: What would you like?
8:23
SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't turn into like a yes-no.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: It's like, okay, either or.
8:27
SPEAKER_00: But either way, right, the boundary is, or the direction is like, we're all going on a hike as a family.
8:31
SPEAKER_01: So talk about the regulation piece, right?
8:34
SPEAKER_01: Because whether we are a parent or not, we notice that our partner or our kid or a family member is unregulated and we're also probably unregulated.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: So, how can we be there for that person when we're probably not ourselves?
8:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:51
SPEAKER_00: So I train parents, and this actually comes from AA.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: AA me is a lot of the air, okay.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: When I'm about to, or when I'm noticing that I'm dysregulated, right?
9:02
SPEAKER_00: Can I halt?
9:03
SPEAKER_00: Which is an acronym for you know, am I hungry?
9:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm probably hangry.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: I should probably eat a snack before I have this tough workstation, right?
9:11
SPEAKER_00: Am I angry?
9:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay, if I am angry, right, I'm in the red zone.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: Can I take 10 deep breaths?
9:16
SPEAKER_00: So then I can't come back to the green zone or the go zone, right?
9:20
SPEAKER_01: Look up zones of regulation, by the way.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: Zones of regulation.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: I learned this from my my therapist, but continue.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then the L stands for lonely.
9:29
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you know, they're acting out, or this person's acting out because it's a bid for connection, and that's the way they can, you know, get your attention.
9:37
SPEAKER_00: Or tired, you know, have you not slept regularly this week?
9:42
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it stems from that.
9:44
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you should take a breather, a pause, right?
9:47
SPEAKER_00: Maybe wake yourself up if you're feeling tired, glass of water, a cup of coffee, and then have this tough conversation.
9:54
SPEAKER_00: And so I think parents really need to notice if they're dysregulated, because their job, I mean, like the job of your partner is to offer you co-regulation, you know, the same way when you're super stressed out, you don't need all these solutions right away or these strategies right away.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you just need to like vent to your partner, you know, or you just want to feel heard, which is like great, you know, like do that first.
10:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I even do this right in my coaching sessions, but a reminder for people when you notice your partner, a friend, a family member, your child venting, sometimes I I know we live in this Western culture of like, we need to fix it, problem solver.
10:31
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: But you could do a simple question of what do you need right now?
10:35
SPEAKER_01: Is it helpful for you to share?
10:36
SPEAKER_01: Or do you need a solution?
10:38
SPEAKER_01: What do you need?
10:40
SPEAKER_01: The other way around too, if you're venting to someone, I actually say this sometimes to my partner.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, hey, I just want to vent, but I'm not looking for a solution.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm just venting.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: So even letting people know what's self-aware.
10:54
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: I think that's, or like, since we're talking about this within the context of parenting, sometimes you can't be asking your four-year-old or five-year-old an open-ended question when they're dysregulated.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: Then you have to kind of label their body awareness for them.
11:09
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I noticed that you're super angry because I don't know, you're punching a pillow.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: Do you want a hug?
11:16
SPEAKER_00: Or hey, let's go to the kitchen and just get a sip of water.
11:19
SPEAKER_00: So you're actually facilitating the self-regulation.
11:22
SPEAKER_02: Oh.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: And then it's also context dependent, right?
11:25
SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, let's go pet our dog.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: You can't really do that in a classroom setting.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: And then sometimes I'll go into the school and say, like, okay, right?
11:32
SPEAKER_00: These are the school or the classroom approved strategies to help so and so calm down.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: You know, this is how you say it, or this is the language that I found worked for this client.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: And then you'll just write all the scripts down, send it in an email, right?
11:46
SPEAKER_00: Have meetings, do follow-ups.
11:48
SPEAKER_00: Is this working?
11:49
SPEAKER_00: Is this not working?
11:50
SPEAKER_00: How can I best support you?
11:52
SPEAKER_00: I think it's really important to focus on regulation first.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: Even when we're doing occupational therapy, right?
11:57
SPEAKER_00: If you're higher elbow, you have no attention or poor attention and you're bouncing from think to think, like, let's work on getting your attention there first, right?
12:06
SPEAKER_00: Getting your emotional regulation there first.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: And then you're more likely to do things that are more challenging.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: So the clients that may see how like sensory processing issues, water challenges, right?
12:17
SPEAKER_00: Like using their hands or using bigger muscles of their body to do coordinated movements is really tricky for them.
12:23
SPEAKER_00: So unless you work on regulation first, there's no way you're gonna do everything that's challenging.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: So you gave some examples.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: What are some scripts you could provide to parents when they notice their child or niece or nephew being unregulated?
12:36
SPEAKER_01: Like I love what you just said, where what would help you right now?
12:40
SPEAKER_01: Do you need a sip of water?
12:42
SPEAKER_01: Do you want to talk about it?
12:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what what what are scripts or things that parents can do?
12:47
SPEAKER_00: I think a common one would be right narrating their feelings and then providing them a closed-ended question.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: So that's they're like, no, I notice you're super sad right now because mom just left and I gave you a hug, or hey, let's text them, you know, once this alarm turns on.
13:04
SPEAKER_00: So that's like a common one.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: Or another script would be, and this is the part where there should be some nuance because depending on the individual, their child's like sensory processing and their personality and their temperament, some of the things that might work for one child doesn't necessarily work for another one.
13:23
SPEAKER_00: So for example, some people, and this is also like no love languages, right?
13:27
SPEAKER_00: When you're super stressed, some people want no words of affirmation or you know, tactile, like that physical affection.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: I've had clients where they're just like, don't look at me, right?
13:39
SPEAKER_00: And maybe the strategy for that particular parent is like, okay, so right, them seeing you and you making eye contact or looking at them while they're crying or having a meltdown is actually prolonging the situation.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: So maybe your job as a parent is like, hey, I'm gonna be right here next to the door.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna play with, I don't know, whatever it is, Legos or something like that.
14:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm here when you're ready.
14:03
SPEAKER_00: So you're not physically abandoning the person.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: They know you're there, but you're not like all eyes on them all the time.
14:10
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
14:13
SPEAKER_01: So what happened?
14:14
SPEAKER_00: What works for me as a grown up?
14:15
SPEAKER_00: I like, don't look at me while you're crying.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: I just need you to be right there.
14:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, what works for me as a grown-up, you know, when I get into miscommunication is I need time.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: And when no, we need to talk about it right now.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, look, I have been in relationships or friendships where we had to talk about it right away.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: And then I said things I regretted.
14:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: And I need a cool down before I have a conversation.
14:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: And as parents, like if it's developmentally appropriate, you could even do it as young three or four.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, mom's starting to get into the red zone.
14:50
SPEAKER_00: I need one minute.
14:52
SPEAKER_00: Okay, when you hear the duck quack from this timer, I will come back.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: You will see my feet right here and outside the door or something like that.
15:00
SPEAKER_00: Or like I need a sip of copy.
15:02
SPEAKER_00: Coffee, I'll come back.
15:04
SPEAKER_00: Just so then you can collect yourself because, and you know, you're human, right?
15:09
SPEAKER_00: If you feel like you're about to be enraged, you should probably go out, come back.
15:12
SPEAKER_00: Or let's say if you are enraged and you say something that you regret, the most important thing is you know, to have the courage and to not have the ego to like apologize for that or do the repair, is what a lot of therapists and psychologists say.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: And did you do the repair?
15:28
SPEAKER_00: Because if you don't exemplify that if you're not a model for that, your kids are not gonna learn how to do.
15:33
SPEAKER_00: And it's not like a thing that they learn in the classroom.
15:36
SPEAKER_00: It's not like a lesson like learning how to do addition or subtraction.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't it be beautiful if we had that though?
15:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just why they hire you instead, Justine.
15:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:46
SPEAKER_00: Or like I'll give resources to teachers and I'll just be like a 15-minute thing that they do.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: Or you know, while more schools are integrating, right?
15:54
SPEAKER_00: Like, especially like school counselors, sometimes depending on the child's like on network level, right?
16:00
SPEAKER_00: You literally have to teach them how to do it.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: Like providing them with a script, like the parents are a coach.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: This is how you do a repair.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: Like, I really love that.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: I wish we learned that, like for our generation.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: So it's nice kind of seeing that.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: Is this a true fact?
16:16
SPEAKER_01: I don't I feel like I've always heard this where it's like the first five years of development is really important in terms of how a child learns how they're gonna communicate, do regulation.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: Is that true or is that just something I just hear?
16:29
SPEAKER_01: I'm only asking you because you're the expert here.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of articles showing that, you know, around three years old, even earlier than that, two or three, right?
16:39
SPEAKER_00: There's something called presynaptic zoning where you have all these neuronal connections, but if you don't use it, you will lose it.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: And so you can actually start teaching kids empathy as early as three, right?
16:52
SPEAKER_00: And then you're just reinforcing that over time.
16:55
SPEAKER_00: And yes, like five and under, this is when you're really developing, right?
16:59
SPEAKER_00: Your fears is a little woo-woo, but like right, you're subconscious, the things that are harder for you to rationalize.
17:07
SPEAKER_00: Even like, you know, if you think that like the developmental stages, abstract thought doesn't really get reinforced, right?
17:14
SPEAKER_00: Like the concepts of like love, perspective taking, and things like that, until like they start to emerge like around seven, eight, nine, right?
17:22
SPEAKER_00: And so you're doing all this work to lead up to that.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, I think it's really important to start as early as possible because then you could start talking to them, and they're starting to have more of that like empathy and self-awareness about how their actions impact other people, right?
17:38
SPEAKER_00: They're thinking outside of themselves or starting to, especially around like two or three, right?
17:42
SPEAKER_00: The sense of autonomy starts.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: And this is why, like around two or three, right?
17:46
SPEAKER_00: The terrible twos, they start saying no for everything.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: Because A, they like the cause and effect, and it's also like, oh well, like my body is an individual and I can have right these conscious actions outside of like my parental figure.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's really interesting.
18:04
SPEAKER_01: Legacy leader.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: I know what you're thinking.
18:06
SPEAKER_01: Elaine, you have such good stuff here.
18:09
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19:23
SPEAKER_01: All right, let's get back to the episode.
19:29
SPEAKER_01: It made me reflect like one of my friends, she has a five-year-old daughter, right?
19:33
SPEAKER_01: And she saw a family member, the family member started touching her hair because she has curly hair.
19:39
SPEAKER_01: And then and then she said, I don't like that you're doing that.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: Please stop.
19:43
SPEAKER_01: And and then the family member was like, Oh my gosh, I was just playing with it.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: And then her mom, thankfully, was like encouraging, like, honey, I'm so glad you spoke what you needed.
19:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you for using your words.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: Right.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: And back in the day, it was just like, okay, just do what I said because I'm the parent, right?
20:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm the adult here.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: But essentially what that parent's doing is like teaching them consent.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: Like, are you allowed to touch my body?
20:10
SPEAKER_00: Am I allowed to touch yours for small space, right?
20:13
SPEAKER_00: Also a reinforcement of like what boundaries are.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: So, like, can you get a high five?
20:18
SPEAKER_00: And some kid will say no.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: I was like, Okay, that's cool.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: You'll have to.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: I actually that happened to me one time.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: I was out with my partners and his cousins, and then his cousin has a niece.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Oh, let's have a high five.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: But mind you, I just met her.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: Just like, no, I'm like, that's okay.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: I was about to take a purse, and I'm like, oh, come on, just been like, hold on.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: Why is my ego here where I want to be liked by this five-year-old?
20:44
SPEAKER_01: Like, good for her for saying no, you know?
20:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:47
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, if you really think about it, it's like a protective mechanism.
20:51
SPEAKER_00: Like, you're a stranger.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: I don't trust you yet.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, you should, versus like some of the kids that we work with.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: It's like we literally have to teach them like this is personal space.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: These are the people in your yes cell, and these are people not allowed in your yes cell without talking to your parents.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: Okay, it just depends on their cognitive level.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's a protective measure for a lot of kids, which is you know, reasonable and developmentally appropriate.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: So what have you noticed to be top challenges for parents nowadays?
21:21
SPEAKER_00: I think, especially with our clientele, they have the liens to write private therapy, to put them in tutoring, to not only have like an occupational therapist, let's say they're over rescheduled with right, not only sports, but let's say an educational therapist and like let's say marriage family therapist, right?
21:43
SPEAKER_00: All these different things.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: I think one of the main challenges which comes from that is like parents are they don't feel equipped to parent, quote unquote, the right way.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they're scared that they're traumatizing their children, but they also want them to have.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Have those social emotional skills.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: And so that's why they'd rather get it from a professional.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: But I try to tell parents, it's like okay, you're not gonna get it perfect always.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: The fact that you're trying, kids feel that.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: And the most important thing is like, okay, if you are, you know, if you did yell or do something that you regret, you have to do the repair.
22:19
SPEAKER_00: And that's what kids are really looking for.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: I just think about like talk about that actually.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: When a parent realizes that they said something or they hurt the child, not saying physical, hopefully not, but like verbally, yeah.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: What would you suggest a parent to say or do?
22:35
SPEAKER_00: So then you acknowledge their feelings and then you apologize.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: And then you think about like, you know, the child or the individual's particular love language.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: So an example could be like, I know you got super scared when I yelled, but you were so close to the show, and I did not want you to get hurt.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry that if I scared you, but I was really worried.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: Something like that.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: Next time I'll make sure to pick you up or move your body instead of yelling, because yelling is really scary sometimes.
23:04
SPEAKER_01: I feel like that's even powerful for like adults and even explaining that to an I'm serious.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: Like, hey, when you yell, it is very scary.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: I if you explained why you're angry, that would very be very helpful.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: Or like, you know, repair can look different, right?
23:24
SPEAKER_00: So depending on the particular person.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: And people don't won't don't want to really talk about it.
23:29
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we'll show kids a a visual.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: Like, did you apologize?
23:33
SPEAKER_00: Check.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: Did you do something kind for them?
23:36
SPEAKER_00: Check.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: Right.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: Did you clean it up if you broke something?
23:39
SPEAKER_00: Right.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: Or did you fix it if you broke it?
23:42
SPEAKER_00: Right.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: So then they have a little visual, like, oh, I did this and this, the mom.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: So, like for like our teen clients, right?
23:48
SPEAKER_00: It's like, okay, did you use an I statement and also do something to repair your relationship with your parents?
23:55
SPEAKER_00: You know, you have to own up to it.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: This is why they don't trust you.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: Because you didn't put in the repair.
24:00
SPEAKER_01: Give an example of an I statement for a teenager.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: And also this could relate to be to adults, let's be real.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: So what's the thing?
24:06
SPEAKER_00: No, um, script for an I statement is I feel blank because blank, right?
24:13
SPEAKER_00: So it kind of takes away the accusatory language and kind of opens up the conversation about how you really feel, which then makes the other party not as defensive.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I felt very disappointed when my iPad got taken away.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: This is how I connect to some of the people from school that I talked to.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's really hard for me to make friends.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry that I hid the school's computer from you know, and you found out.
24:45
SPEAKER_00: Or something like this.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: Right.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm just like using an example of a 14-year-old client that basically she like quote unquote borrowed a laptop from school.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: Parents found it.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: She was talking to like people that she wasn't supposed to, all sorts of stuff.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: But I was like, okay, okay, well, like if you do it once, right, they give you the back footage out, right?
25:05
SPEAKER_00: You do it twice.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: It's like, all right, now it's a coincidence, and now your parents are like, okay, checking the Wi-Fi, seeing like your vices are on it, right?
25:12
SPEAKER_00: Now it's a red flag, right?
25:14
SPEAKER_00: Three times you're doing it, now it's a pattern.
25:16
SPEAKER_00: And now it's like, okay, like you know better.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: If you know better, do better, right?
25:20
SPEAKER_00: And so now we needed like right sometize like how you're gonna do this repair with your parents.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: Because at this point, it's three times now, now they don't trust you.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: And so it's like helping them quantify it and then helping them sequence what they need to do.
25:35
SPEAKER_00: Right, do this for like parents for parent coaching, but then also, right, depending on their cognitive level, right?
25:40
SPEAKER_00: How old they are, I could make it like, you know, oh yeah, you say sorry.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: This is how you say sorry, make sure you like do this for mom.
25:47
SPEAKER_00: Versus like the teen client of like, okay, now you gotta get more money on with it.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: Because they really gotta believe you now.
25:53
SPEAKER_00: And also, like, they want to know if you learned anything from that situation.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, accountability on your end.
25:59
SPEAKER_00: You're not five.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about the biggest battle parents have.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: So, for example, I had my birthday dinner yesterday with my family.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: My adorable nephew was there, and we had two hours to be in this private room, and then 90 minutes came and he was in his little high chair.
26:17
SPEAKER_01: He's about a year and a half, so he's buckled up and he hit his plateau, which means he was screaming and yelling.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: And then my brother is like, Okay, Cocoa Bell in time, I'm gonna take my phone out.
26:31
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: So the battle with screens.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: I would love for you to share your expertise, insider advice.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I try to tell parents as much as possible do not rely on a screen to entertain your child.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: Because in that instance, right, instead of maybe taking the coconut iPad or phone out, maybe it was the toddler's way of saying, like, I need a break.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: If you think about like a restaurant, right, they're not part of a conversation, oftentimes they're talking down to it's a huge multi-sensory environment, right?
27:06
SPEAKER_00: They're probably not eating the same food that you're eating too.
27:09
SPEAKER_00: So they've essentially like met their threshold.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: Also, if you think about like kids, and our rule of thumb that I try to explain parents is like, okay, if you have a one-year-old, you could have sustained right attention for about one to two minutes, right?
27:23
SPEAKER_00: Let's say, right, they're two, right?
27:25
SPEAKER_00: For them to be really engaged in something, you could think about like it being like two to four minutes, right?
27:31
SPEAKER_00: This child, right, has really expanded their attention span to kind of ride through the situation of like them being at the restaurant, right?
27:38
SPEAKER_00: They've engaged with all the adults in one situation.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: And now they're just like, I'm losing my shit.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: I need a break.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: But it's like, okay, can a two-year-old or a one and a half year old convey that to you?
27:50
SPEAKER_00: No, so as a parent, you're supposed to read their cues.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: Oh, you know, so and so is yelling, oh, so and so.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: I noticed that you're having a tough time in the high chair.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: Let's go outside for a little bit and come back.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: Right?
28:02
SPEAKER_00: So essentially, rather than like giving them a screen, which also impacts their, you know, attention, which then now I'm seeing a lot of kids dependent on a screen or are showing ADHD like behaviors, it prevents them from actually learning how to have a meal at a restaurant with their family.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: You know?
28:20
SPEAKER_01: It's sad because I even see it now, not for the young families, I say, but even like teenagers out with their parents, right?
28:27
SPEAKER_01: It's so normal for me, then fortunately, to go to a restaurant.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: Not only are the kids on TV, but then I see a dad watching a football game, and then a mom, like everyone's literally on their screen and connecting with one another.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: And so then, right, you get a lot of teens and young adults who have high anxiety because they don't know how to be in social situations.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, they don't know how to do it.
28:51
SPEAKER_01: They don't know how to self-regulate, right?
28:53
SPEAKER_00: You know, and they don't know how to ask certain questions.
28:55
SPEAKER_00: How do you get to know someone?
28:57
SPEAKER_00: How do you check in with someone?
28:59
SPEAKER_00: And it's not like you care to hide behind a screen from that.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: It's like, hey, this is playing out in real time.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, parents really need to not use a screen as a cop-out when things get hard.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: And I get it.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: I tell parents, it's like, I get it.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you need like five minutes for for you to do the dishes so that they're like safe and not like, I don't know, jumping off the couch or on a flight, it's a special treat, like, right?
29:24
SPEAKER_00: You need three hours of them like being quiet and that they're not like, you know, running all over the aisles or something like that.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: Like there is a time and place for it, but if this is the regular quarantine, you guys are out and about, like it's very telling.
29:38
SPEAKER_00: And it's also like you need to scaffold it then.
29:40
SPEAKER_00: It's like, okay, great.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: So then maybe you don't do like a two-hour sit-down in so-and-so's two, and they could probably last a good 15 to 20 minutes because I've timed it on my phone over time.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: Great.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna just do it, I don't know, go to in and out, pick it up, play a little bit, I'm home, right?
29:56
SPEAKER_00: And then kind of like push it and push it and push it from there.
29:59
SPEAKER_00: So essentially, right, you're scaffolding it versus like you let me put you in a situation where I know you're not gonna like be successful in.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: So interesting.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, even as an adult, right?
30:11
SPEAKER_01: Like we were just talking about like going to therapy earlier before we hit record.
30:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: But I even noticed things as an adult and being in a relationship, like, oh my gosh, I do this because this is how I was parented.
30:24
SPEAKER_01: Like I didn't see this as a value, like our very simple example, for example.
30:29
SPEAKER_01: Like, very fortunate that my parents supported me through like school, but because they came from a poor economic status in Philippines, they wanted me to focus on school only.
30:41
SPEAKER_01: Which meant I didn't do errands, right?
30:44
SPEAKER_01: I didn't do a lot of things.
30:45
SPEAKER_01: So I don't think top of mind to like, let me clean this, let me organize this because it was always done for me and I was studying.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: Like I notice that now as an adult.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I have to like consciously capture myself, like, oh wait, I need to do this or that I do do laundry every week.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: But you know, not like, oh, there's it's just it's fascinating to just be self-aware how we are.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: And it's not because you don't have the skills.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's more just lack of exposure.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: And I try to tell parents to like, I get it, like you want them to do a math tutor, art tutor, all the different tutors.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: You have the means to do it.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: But there's been multiple studies that, you know, for your child to be successful, it's not your IQ, it's your EQ, right?
31:27
SPEAKER_00: You can know all the answers and be like the best engineer, the best doctor, this and that.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: But if you don't know how to relate to people, you don't have a good bedside manner, you don't know how to like, you know, connect with them, they're not gonna listen to you, even if you're right and you know the answer, the solution, or like whatever needs to happen.
31:43
SPEAKER_00: No one's gonna listen to you.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, dude.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: Like you're very aggressive, or like you need to speak up, or you need a nuncy, or right?
31:51
SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you capture someone's attention using your affects?
31:54
SPEAKER_00: Like, these are these quote unquote soft skills or these social emotional skills that are now really being taught in school because especially during the pandemic, no one really had practice, or at least, right, those kids in those formative years lack exposure or practice.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: I think more so, what is it?
32:11
SPEAKER_01: Gen Alpha is learning this because it's us millennials who are having the kids.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: And I was talking to one of my team members before this call where we were talking about Gen Zers, where like I know you're laughing already, but it's like like the lazy era, or like, okay, work ends at five, but they left at two or three.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: Literally, I was talking to their client, they left at two or three without telling me.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: I don't understand why.
32:38
SPEAKER_01: I was like, not on death.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like they didn't tell me why there's no family emergency.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: I call them, why'd you leave?
32:45
SPEAKER_01: Oh, just left.
32:47
SPEAKER_00: God, I don't like that because there's no accountability.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious if that has to interplay too with the not understanding EQ.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: It's a screen time part.
32:59
SPEAKER_00: Because rather than asking or inquiring or having a tough conversation with your employer, like, hey, I'm upset because of this, or hey, we could do this better, right?
33:08
SPEAKER_00: They'd rather not even attempt that with a conversation because it's too overwhelming.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: It's that lack of exposure.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: Also, if you think about like screens or texting or FaceTiming, it's a lot of the types when you actually have more time and you can hide behind a screen rather than like, right?
33:24
SPEAKER_00: Really interact is interacting and noticing how the other person's responding.
33:29
SPEAKER_00: Are they starting to fume?
33:30
SPEAKER_00: Are they starting to get sad because you just like walked out and having to confront that?
33:35
SPEAKER_00: It's a right, like the feelings of guilt, shame, embarrassment, like all in real time and you can't escape it.
33:43
SPEAKER_00: People need practice.
33:44
SPEAKER_01: So interesting.
33:46
SPEAKER_01: So what are do you have any top tips for parents?
33:50
SPEAKER_00: Top tips would be, and I think about like habits, because screen time is often an a habit.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: And I think you just want to make sure it's like frictionless, right?
33:59
SPEAKER_00: So it's like, okay, you know, let's make sure that we're not packing our phones or our your child's iPad if you you know you want to try to like expand our attention during a meal time.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: You know, let's say you want to decrease access to let's say, let's say like you're not gonna give them the Wi-Fi password today, even though it's like a bitch to change it every day because you're like, okay.
34:22
SPEAKER_00: So then we could have a present like dinner with all the members of the family, right?
34:27
SPEAKER_01: You could also unplug it, by the way.
34:29
SPEAKER_00: I know.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's actually more like, yeah, more efficient.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: I think it's more like, okay, how can we instill habits and and make it less or decrease the friction, right?
34:39
SPEAKER_00: Like make these things less accessible so that you know we could actually get them to do the things that you wanted them to do.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: Like, let's say, I don't know, homework or have a conversation with you, and you're not gonna get it perfect every single time and own up to your mistakes and then do that repair so that you could be a model for them.
34:57
SPEAKER_00: And I think you have to give kids practice with these tough conversations and give them some accountability for their boundaries that they didn't like met up on, right?
35:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because what I think gentle parenting gets a bad rap for, or what it gets misconstrued as is list permissive parenting, right?
35:17
SPEAKER_00: You just like get to talk to their parents like that and they have no consequences, right?
35:22
SPEAKER_00: You could say something like, you know, it's the family rule that we don't talk to each other using, I don't know, curse word.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, we're not getting the Wi-Fi for tonight.
35:31
SPEAKER_00: And you're saying it in a warm way, like, and you can say it's like it's because you know that really hurt mom and dad's feelings.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: And I'm teaching you to be a respectful person with us and with everyone around you, something like that, you know, as much as possible.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: If screen time is an issue, right?
35:47
SPEAKER_00: Try to create less accessibility towards it, right?
35:50
SPEAKER_00: Repair on your end.
35:52
SPEAKER_00: And then also it's just like, yeah, also be be okay with like you're not gonna get it perfect every single time.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: And that you're trying.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: So, what is one action item, one reflective question you want to share with parents and humans, even those that are not parents listening to this, when it comes to being a gentle human.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: I think we gotta touch upon it, or the recurring theme is like, yes, validate the other person's feeling, make sure that they feel heard.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: And then if you have a request or a suggestion, once they're regulated, then bring it into the conversation because they're ready to listen.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:27
SPEAKER_01: So you're based in Pasadena, California.
36:30
SPEAKER_01: If parents want to reach out to you, get to know you more, work with you, how can they reach out to you?
36:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you can contact us on our contact webpage on our main website.
36:41
SPEAKER_00: It's www.thesensorybrain.com.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, we're in Pasadena.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, we do parent coaching sessions in person online.
36:51
SPEAKER_00: We also do individual occupational therapy, the focus on sensory processing, motor coordination, and self-regulation, emotional regulation.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: Then yeah.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: I know that she has a busy practice and growing her practice.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: So feel free to hit up Justine right away.
37:08
SPEAKER_01: I'll put her website on the show notes.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: And then Justine, I also have some listeners who are interested in working with me, and we've worked together about four months.
37:17
SPEAKER_01: So anything you want to share about your experience working with me as a client and any results you want to share that you feel comfortable sharing.
37:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, what I really appreciate about you is that you're warm and supportive, and especially me and pretty type A in a lot of ways.
37:34
SPEAKER_00: Like you give me action items, and I love to check it off.
37:37
SPEAKER_00: So I feel really efficient.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: So within the four months, I was able to, you know, interview tax preparers, have a tough conversation about letting a client go that felt like in alignment with like my company values and our company policy.
37:53
SPEAKER_00: I was able to like do a photo shoot, produce that on my own, get models for that, all of that.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: And then also like you helped facilitate a connection with someone that helped design our website.
38:05
SPEAKER_00: And then that got us more client lead.
38:07
SPEAKER_00: So it was very increased.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: You're a great coach.
38:11
SPEAKER_00: N out of 10, five out of five stars.
38:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like I definitely saw results.
38:17
SPEAKER_00: And so I want to thank you.
38:19
SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you.
38:21
SPEAKER_01: And if you want to schedule a call, go to ElaineLew.com forward slash call.
38:26
SPEAKER_01: Just saying, thank you so much for all you do for parents, kids, and this next generation.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's an honor to pay it forward.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: I think it's yeah, it's like I think what my legacy is, what I want it to be.
38:40
SPEAKER_00: It's to make you know the world a better price.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: So healing.
38:43
SPEAKER_01: I mean, both of us are Filipinos, so so healing from what we grew up to.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: Right?
38:48
SPEAKER_00: It's like I'm reparenting myself through you guys.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: I know it's beautiful.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Justine.
38:54
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
38:54
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: I hope you took the time to write all those beautiful tips and scripts, whether it's talking to your child, partner, family member, or friend.
39:06
SPEAKER_01: Cause trust me, I did.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: And if you found this episode on gentle parenting, communication, and boundaries helpful, here are four things you can do if you feel called to do them.
39:19
SPEAKER_01: Number one, if you could leave a five-star rating interview, that would mean a lot to me and my team.
39:26
SPEAKER_01: I created this podcast for accessible education for a woman of color and allies, and each episode takes about four hours to create.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: It takes me one hour to prep and another 30 minutes to one hour to record.
39:38
SPEAKER_01: Then my team spends another two hours to edit and market.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: Number two, because my team and I care about accessible education, share this with a friend who is probably overwhelmed being a super parent and doing all the things, or another friend who just needs better communication skills and boundaries.
39:59
SPEAKER_01: And when you share it with your friend, send a personal message about why they should listen to this particular episode.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: Number three, don't forget to hit that follow button and subscribe button.
40:11
SPEAKER_01: When you hit it, it lets the interwebs do their thing and let other women of color allies know that there is this wonderful resource for them to take advantage of.
40:22
SPEAKER_01: Number four.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: And if you would like to create a sustainable business or career similar to what Justine was able to create, where your career revolves around your personal life and you want to work with me, then schedule an introductory legacy career review call with me.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: I only work with 24 clients at one time to ensure each client receives the results they deserve.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: So you can schedule a complimentary legacy business review call at alainloo.com forward slash call.