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Strength in Community: A Rabbi's Journey Through Wartime Loss · Defining Moments

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Since October 7th, communities across Israel have faced unprecedented challenges
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with religious leaders often serving on the front lines of emotional and spiritual support.
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Today, we're speaking with Rabbi Zev Rosenfeld, the Chief Rabbi of Talmon,
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a community that has lost four soldiers in the current war.
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As an Anglo-Rabbi leading an Israeli yeshuv, Rabbi Rosenfeld brings a unique
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perspective to his role.
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A graduate of the Barcai Rabbinical Training Program, he has found himself navigating
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the complex landscape of community leadership during wartime.
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In Talmon, where nearly every family has a soldier serving and the entire community
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grapples with loss and uncertainty, Rabbi Rosenfeld's role extends far beyond the synagogue walls.
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From supporting bereaved families and tending to the needs of soldiers' loved
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ones to guiding the community's youth through trauma, His experience offers
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a window into how religious leaders are helping their communities navigate these challenging times.
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Join us as we explore how one community rabbi is helping his key love face the
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daily challenges of war, loss, and resilience.
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Welcome to Defining Moments. This is Rabbi David Fine, and it's my pleasure
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to host today Rabbi Zev Rosenfeld.
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Rabbi Zev, can I call you Rabbi Zev? Sure. He is the rabbi of Talmon,
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a yeshuv, a settlement not so far from here.
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So first of all, welcome, Rabbi Rosenfeld. Thank you very much for having me.
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Could you tell us just a little about yourself before we get started?
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Sure. I grew up in Toronto. I was in Toronto until 817, finished high school.
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Came from a year in Israel. Instead of being here for just a year,
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I stayed for many years, and here I am.
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I went to NYU a little bit, went to York University in Toronto a little bit.
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And now I've been the rabbi for four years in Talmud.
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I was a volunteer for another four years back. So, sachal, eight years as a rabbi of Talmud.
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So, why don't you tell us a little bit about Talmud for those people who don't know much about it?
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It's a nice yeshuv. We have about 320 families.
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Beautiful hilltop with a beautiful view overlooking the whole area of Tel Aviv,
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right above Modin, in Yudavur Shomron.
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Very, very important, strategically placed.
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And how did you become the rabbi of Talmud? Truth is, I've been there for about 20 years.
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And 12 years after I was there, the previous rabbi who became the chief rabbi of the police force.
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Rabbi Rami Berkayahu. Right. So he couldn't do both jobs. So he asked me to
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step in and I was voted in and I was accepted.
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The reason, part of the reason that I ask you that is because it's unusual for
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a Anglo rabbi, somebody who grew up in the United States, or in your case,
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in Toronto, becoming a rav of such an important yeshuv.
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So that's why I was very interested. Do you think that had anything to do with it?
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I don't think so. I think it's just a tremendous hut that I used to grow up.
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I'm playing basketball and watching Toronto Blue Jays or Maple Leaf hockey in Toronto.
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And now I'm the rabbi of a Yishuv in Israel in Yudav Shomron.
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I think it's a tremendous host.
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And I don't know if it's because I came from North America, but it's definitely
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something that I'm proud of.
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And it brings a different flavor to my rabbinous, I think.
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The reason, or part of the reason at least, why I wanted to have you come in
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here today and for you to be on the podcast was because during this war,
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the focus, especially in the media a lot of the times is on the heroes, right?
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The soldiers who die in battle, the hostages, the families, the orphans,
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the widows, and obviously they're very big heroes.
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But I think that there are other heroes that their names may not be in the light.
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They're a little bit more behind the scenes, but they're very important in terms
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of the war as well as ongoing trying to just live life as we hopefully at some point leave this war.
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And I think that the rabbi is a very important person in this whole,
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in this situation, meaning you have a issue of, like you said,
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of around 300 and something families.
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And in many ways, you probably have social workers and a rakezet,
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kehila, whatever it may be.
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But in many ways, you're at the top of the pyramid and you are the one who in
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many ways is responsible to support the people that need the support during this war.
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And we know that there are many, many people who need support.
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So I want to ask you about a few groups in your yeshuv.
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First of all, you have hundreds of soldiers that are from your yeshuv fighting in this war. True?
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First of all, thank you for thinking of me as a hero. I don't see myself as
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a hero, but I see myself in a position where I'm able to touch people in times of war.
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Everybody, where it hits them. So yes, we have 320 families in the Yishuv.
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I would say almost every family had a member of their family at war.
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Whether it's the husband, whether it's a son, a son-in-law.
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At the height of the war, I think more than half of the yeshuv was at war.
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And the wives or the kids and some of those people at war were even grandparents.
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And their sons were at war alongside them.
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So we had to make sure that everyone's thought of.
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I wrote WhatsApps to every chayal the day the war began as they left,
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meeting them on their base with a WhatsApp just to show them that I'm with them
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and wishing them well and keeping in touch with them.
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Whenever they came back for time, either during the week or on Shabbat,
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in training you come back on Shabbat, but in the war you come back whenever you can.
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And whenever I saw them in shul or saw them in the streets, I made a point to
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go over and hear what they're up to.
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We had a whole team working on helping the wives who were left with kids at
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home or mothers who had their sons at war and not sleeping at night,
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waiting, or hopefully not waiting but nervous that we get that famous knock on the door.
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So we had to have teams taking care of all the different groups of people,
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and it was a yeshuv at war.
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So when you say taking care of the people, that sounds very general.
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Could you give us a little bit more in terms of specifics? What does it mean
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to take care of the wives, to take care of the other children?
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So we had a staff, a team that had a whole Google Docs of all the chaylim that
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were at war and their wives, and whenever they were finished,
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they were taken off because their wife now has her husband back.
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But that list, we had people making sure they had food taken care of, given to them.
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If their children, if she was at work and their children were coming home from
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school, we had girls coming home from school early to go help with the little kids.
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We made sure that they got attention. They didn't feel that they're struggling
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alone because you can feel so alone and not understand that you're community.
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The beauty of a community is that you're really not alone, even though you're
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going through a tough time, but we made sure that no one is alone.
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The soldiers themselves, you said you watched them and you tried to relate to
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them when they were able to come home.
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Did you get a lot of Shilohs or questions from them? Did they seek you out? Sure.
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There's halacha all year long, and then there's halacha of war.
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Many, many different questions came up. For instance, on Shabbat,
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if they had a chance to come home on Shabbat, but they would have to drive.
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Could they come home? Or if they had a chance to come home before Shabbat,
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but they were told to come back on Shabbat.
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So the answers were based on what the Rabbinut HaTzva'id said and what also
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my peers, for instance, in WhatsApp groups of Barkay or other rabbi groups that we have.
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So we discussed the issues and there was no one answer.
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Everyone got their answer based on what they needed and their situation in the war.
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Tons of questions that were war-related. Yep, that's for sure.
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And besides the war-related questions, did any of them reach out to you in terms
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of just talking because they were stressed, because they were nervous,
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because they just needed somebody to talk to?
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Sometimes they come to me, but sometimes when I meet them on the streets or
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meet them in shul and have a little schmooze after shul, you know,
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if you press the right buttons and if you ask the right questions, they open up.
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Some of them are really strong, but some of them, you know, being out of the
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house for so long, there were real issues.
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Coming back home, whether it's with their spouse or with their kids or at work,
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because some of them were doing real life-saving jobs and tasks at war.
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And then if they came back after months in Miloim and months at war,
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and they had to go back to their paper-pushing jobs, they felt they weren't
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doing anything so important.
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They were frustrated at work. or if at home, their families pretty much for
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a few months learned how to manage without them.
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And all of a sudden, you know, dad comes back.
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And they have to make room for him. And it wasn't always easy.
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It's not always easy in Zugiut, not always easy for the person to come home.
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And first of all, the army was very good. This time around, they gave them sessions
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after they finished their months of miluim.
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They sat them down in some conference hall and gave them two full days or three
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full days of sessions with psychologists and others.
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But even so, we had to walk them through it, and we had to send them to the
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right therapists if needed. That was definitely part of my job.
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I'd ask you, too, about the families, not only the soldiers.
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You said before that there were Google Docs and food and people making sure
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that the kids were watching.
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Again, that's all very, very important, but in many ways, that's very technical.
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It's very helpful, but in many ways, it's very technical.
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Did the family members seek you out to talk to you and talk about the stresses,
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which in some ways are similar to the soldier stresses, but in many ways very
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different because they're not fighting a war. They're nervous, waiting at home.
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So my wife, Baruch Hashem, Shoshi, is also my partner in the job.
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And we also have social workers.
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We also have other people in the yeshuv available for discussions like that.
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We made ourselves available and whoever wanted to approach us,
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they did. We also made events. We made events to celebrate the chayalim.
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I think we made a Seder assumed Seder Noshiman Dov Yomi, so Moshe Shaos made him Lava Malka.
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We had a guest speaker, and at the end of that evening all the Chayalim that
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were in for that weekend were saluted, we gave them a gift.
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Purim night we made a whole Purim party, but at a certain point we also saluted the Chayalim.
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We tried to salute the women that their husbands were out at war,
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so they had evenings for the women to come and you know, to get a massage and
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to get some, some time off.
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And we arranged babysitters so that women can come out.
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So we had a whole arrangement for people to feel they can approach us,
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but also we, we, we initially, we initiated ideas to help them.
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Now you were used to before the war, taking care of people as well and supporting people.
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And it sounds like once the war started, you spent most of your time,
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if not all of your time on the people that were affected by the war.
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But what about, I'm sure there were people that were not necessarily affected by the war.
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Of course, the war is in the air and the stress and the tension hits everybody.
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Even if you're not fighting in the war, you're not a family of a member of a
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soldier fighting in the war.
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But did you, were you able to support them as well?
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I can think about the youth in our, in our issues. And if I can compare myself
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growing up in Toronto, And I don't think I had anybody die, except for my friends' grandparents.
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Death wasn't a thing. We grew up in a very nice...
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Childhood, played sports, went to sports games, and went to school.
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And the youth in my Yishuv, their brothers and their fathers went to war,
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and four members of our Yishuv, four sons of our Yishuv were killed at battle.
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And I had to really think of the youth and understand that they're going through a war.
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They're going through the frightening times of their brothers and parents and
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fathers not at home, and they're losing members of their Yishuv,
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and they're growing up in the shadow of death.
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It's a totally different kind of childhood than most of us had growing up, especially in America.
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So there were times that I approached the youth. We called them the Noir.
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Pretty much, the truth is, I remember right at the beginning of the war,
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a few months into it, we had a time that we called all the little children of
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the fathers at war, and I had a shmooz with him.
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And then there were times that I took the youth, the high school kids,
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for a shmooz, either every age group by itself, ninth grade and tenth grade, and met them as a whole.
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That's definitely a group of the yeshuv which we had to think of,
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that they're going through a difficult time in war, and it's not so simple,
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that they come to HaRherzl to bury their neighbors.
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It's not a normal childhood. So you mentioned the four soldiers that fell from
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Talmon, and we'll get to that in a minute.
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That's a very important part of this discussion. But a few questions before
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we get there. Now, you've talked about a staff.
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So are you at the head of that pyramid or what happens in the Yishuv in terms of staff?
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So I'm glad you asked that because the beauty of the Yishuv,
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the beauty of the Yishuv, especially once we became more experienced,
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was that we have a whole system.
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It's a community. I'm not sure how it works in the city.
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But we have a system where we have an emergency rescue team for times of emergency,
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and they set in within a split second if there's an emergency,
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whether it's war-related or otherwise, and there's a social worker and there's
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a member of the board and there are people with positions that are there, and they set up.
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What they call a hamal, they set up a room from which they control the erua, the event going on.
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So if it's a one-time thing, so it's a quick 24-hour erua that we set up as teams and go to work.
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So you said rescue, but you really mean like an emergency response team.
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Response, I'm sorry, yes, emergency response team.
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So if it's a one-day, two-day thing, so then people move into mode.
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If it's over months, so we had to have members of the yeshuv that weren't at war, volunteer,
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who's going to help the wives of the chayalim, who's going to help the mothers
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of the chayalim, who's going to set up the shiva house for the chayal that fell.
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And over time, different volunteers step in and step out and help along.
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But are you, again, are you at the head of that pyramid?
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I am on the religious, spiritual side of that triangle, I guess you call it.
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I don't know if I'm the head of the pyramid, because I'm the spiritual leader.
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I'm sorry. I'm the spiritual leader. A yeshuv has other leaders that are more,
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let's say, experienced or professional in their field.
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They leave me to be the spiritual leader.
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But I do think that my wife also has a large part in the leadership of that
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chesed. A lot of it is just somebody who's going to put the chesed as the first priority.
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And my wife also definitely steps into that position. But you've spoken about
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the closeness of the yeshuv.
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So I imagine that even though you're the spiritual leader and they're more professional,
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I imagine that everyone works together. Exactly. We have a team.
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We have a WhatsApp group. We're always in touch with each other.
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Looks like this family needs a little bit more attention. Looks like this family is okay now.
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We're always in touch. And I'm definitely part of that team that's on the top of the pyramid.
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Now, you talked about the difference between your growing up in Toronto and
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the youth that is growing up today amidst this war.
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I want to ask you a question about that because I live in Modin and in my synagogue
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also, there are hundreds of soldiers fighting in the war.
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And obviously, there are issues. Obviously, there's tension.
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Obviously, there's stress. But sometimes you don't really see it outwardly.
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A lot of times it seems like everything's normal.
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So how do you necessarily get to the people or really know who the people are
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that need it and get to them in a way that's effective?
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The minute I moved into my position from day one, which was way before the war
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began, in my shiurim also to the women and also to the men, I said,
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I need you to be my ears and my antennas.
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And then if anybody's going through a difficult time, whether it's the grandfather
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who's in the hospital and the mother of the family is with the grandfather and
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the husband and kids are left at home for Shabbos every two weeks.
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So just last week, a lady called and said, this family is my neighbor,
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this is what they're going through.
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Make sure that the Yishuv knows about them. So people are my antennas,
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people are my ears, and it works.
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People come to me and people come to the other positions in the Yishuv.
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And we have, just last week or two weeks ago, someone sent me a WhatsApp of
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one of the members of the Yishuv status.
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And he was concerned because that status raised a question mark in that other member's eyes.
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And he said, take a look, see if there's something going on in that family.
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So people know to turn to me and it's actually beautiful. It's heartwarming
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to know that people care about other families.
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And thank God people see me as an address and then I go and check out how the family is doing.
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That is beautiful. And like you said at the beginning when you were talking
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about not being a hero but that you had an opportunity to help and be part of
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a real community, that shows that you're very effective.
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So that's very, very pleasing to hear.
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I wanted to talk about all of that because I see that in many ways as the background.
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Obviously, it's a very important background.
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But a lot of times people, especially people that don't live in Israel,
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again, see the headlines, see the news.
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And when a soldier falls, they see the Leviah, the funeral at Har Herzl.
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They see the Shiva, they see articles about how he fell in battle,
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but they don't really understand all of the background that you're talking about that needs to go on.
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And it's not just details. It's very important background in order to really
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support the family. And we all know that these families need so much support.
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So like you said before, you had four soldiers that fell from Tamon and God
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should only help that there shouldn't be any others.
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So before we get into the details of how you support them, I think people are
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interested to know. I know that I'm interested to know.
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How do you find out? How does the family find out and how do you find out?
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And what do you do during like the first 24 to 48 hours in order to help them?
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So here I think it is different in the yeshuvan in the city.
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I don't know who the army approaches when they knock on the door when they come to a family in the city.
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But we have that emergency response team.
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The way it works is every yeshuvan, Yudav HaShemun, has a yellow gate at the entrance.
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When the army comes with its three soldiers, three officers,
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to come to announce to a family that their chayal was killed,
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they stop outside our gate make a call to the person who's in charge of that
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emergency response team,
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and they say this is the family we're coming into the yeshuv now please tell
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me where he lives, we're on our way and then unfortunately, I'm getting emotional
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thinking about it because, you know, four times this happened,
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the person that got the call calls me and I go straight to the house.
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The way it works is they always send an ambulance to stand outside the house
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in case one of the members of the family has a terrible reaction.
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And then the three soldiers go in. I'm outside the house.
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And then when they finish telling the family with the official announcement,
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I step in and I'm there within just a few minutes after them getting the news.
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It's the most devastating thing. And I don't even think that they understand that.
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As much as they will in the next few days, because it's still a shock,
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and they're still in the stage of, you know, denying.
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First of all, there's a denial stage. It can't be. Then there's a stage where
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they understand, but they're trying to fight the idea, and then it settles in.
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But that initial shock is the time that I'm there.
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So I want to ask you, you go in right after the soldiers inform them,
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and there's all that shock.
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What could you possibly say that, will be effective at that moment?
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First, I'd like to say how I cope with myself because I want to fall apart with the family.
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It's devastating. Somehow I pull myself together and say, now I'm at task.
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My job is just to be there, to give them hugs. There's nothing I can say.
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I don't have any words. In Hebrew, we say, in milim.
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There's nothing I can say but me being there I've seen, experience has taught me is a calming effect,
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obviously I teach them the halakilchot of avilut or onein before the burial,
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but that's later first they have to get over the,
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initial shock and they have to make all their phone calls they have to make
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sure that all the members of the family know before it goes out an official
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announcement to the yeshuv or an official announcement to the press But that's the Army job.
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The Army has learned that they can't announce anything until all the members
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of the family that they want to know through them are informed first.
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And I just sit there and sometimes they ask me things. Sometimes I just give a hug.
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How long do you stay with them? If I feel that they need their space, so I step out.
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Either I step out and stay outside or I go home and then I come back.
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But pretty much there from the time that they're announced until they go to
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sleep at night usually when the yeshuv announces it to the yeshuv.
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Friends and neighbors start coming in and I'm there,
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and then usually they have to make halachic decisions and practical decisions
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the army has a whole list of questions how to bury,
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when to bury, where to bury how the kever should look how the procedure of the
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levaya should be many many technical questions but so i'm there for that some
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families have me actually sit in the closed room with zichayalim and the family,
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So that if they have any questions or if they need any moral support,
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I'm with them. Some families preferred me not to be in the room.
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And whatever, what each family is, what they prefer is fine.
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It's a time where you don't judge anybody. No one's prepared for such a moment.
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And it's always new and shocking.
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And I just respect whatever they want at the time. And also,
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as they've had more experience, I know what questions to anticipate.
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And then sometimes I can tell them in advance, this question may come up, think about it.
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And then when things start quieting down, they want quiet by themselves.
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And usually I think about what to say at a Hespit for the following day and
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the funerals the next day.
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I go home and start thinking about my Hespit.
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I've actually said, for Hespidim in Har Herzl.
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Har Herzl for me is a difficult place.
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It has become a difficult place I used to go to Har
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Herzl all the time on Yomuzi Karon we take students there I think that's a very
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very important place to be I'm a high school Rebbe also so every year I take
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my students there on Yomuzi Karon we've taken them on tours of Har Herzl but
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Har Herzl has taken a whole new meaning for me,
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because I have to be with the family it's the hardest moment
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and actually say words of Hesped at a fresh grave and to prepare such a hespit
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it's a tremendous task because you have to talk about the boy you have to talk
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about the family you have to talk about the mesirut nefesh that the boy had,
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and I also have to talk to my yeshuv because every time my yeshuv has another
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casualty like this in the meantime we've had four chayalim killed and there
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was another in this whole time span another chayal that was just finished in
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the army, but he was killed in the piguah, not in the army,
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but he was a chayal until two weeks before, and he was killed in the piguah.
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So really, five? Five, yes. And another girl, age 21, died from cancer, all in this past year.
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So the Yishuv sort of has gone through a time of death, of death of children.
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So every time I speak at a Har Hurtzel, I also make a few moments,
25:52
take a few moments to talk to the Yishuv and to say we're a strong Yishuv,
25:57
we're a Yishuv of life, not a Yishuv of death.
26:02
Hur Hetzel is a meaningful place, but it also has a haunted side to it, for me.
26:08
You said before that you're the spiritual leader, and you talked about a lot
26:12
of the, again, the things that various people, including you and Shoshi do in
26:17
order to make things better for people, the food and the chesed.
26:21
Talking about being a spiritual leader, you just said a moment ago that you
26:25
talk about Talmud being a settlement of life. But you're a spiritual leader.
26:30
How do you carry the Yishuv during these very difficult times?
26:35
Five deaths from the war, a 21-year-old dying of cancer.
26:40
What do you say on a week-to-week basis? How do you talk to people in a way that could lift them up?
26:46
But the truth is, after quite a few years, I don't know, not so many,
26:50
maybe eight years of preparing droshos for every Friday night,
26:55
or Shabbos HaGod, or Shabbos Shuvah droshos,
26:58
where in the past, you find a nice vort, and you think of something that's meaningful
27:03
to talk to the people where they're at now, and you say, you say,
27:07
Advart Torah, and sit down.
27:09
In the past year and a quarter, I can't just say Advart.
27:14
You have to understand what the people are going through you have to understand
27:17
what the Jewish people in Israel are going through,
27:20
and I've been finding it much harder to find ways to always connect what I'm
27:25
saying to what we're going through whether it was times where we had to say
27:29
because we killed Sinoir.
27:34
And people jumped to the streets of Moziyontiv of Sukkis.
27:40
And they were dancing in the streets And there are times where we actually added
27:45
Mizmor LeToda to the tefillah, and there were times where we were with casualties
27:51
and we had to say words of Nechama.
27:54
But definitely, my Dzerashot...
27:57
And I have to really work hard to find the right words to say.
28:03
And you find the right words to individuals and speaking in public.
28:11
You were getting emotional before, but do you mind telling us just in one sentence
28:15
a little bit about each of the soldiers that got killed from Taman? Sure.
28:19
On the very first day of the war, we have two parts of Aishuv, the two hilltops.
28:27
In Yudav Shomron, as many hilltops as we can take over, we have a chain of Jewish
28:34
presence under as many hilltops as we can.
28:37
So we have a yeshuv that started Talmud, and one hilltop, and then a little
28:41
bit higher, within walking distance, we have another neighborhood in Nevei Talmud.
28:46
So every Shabbos, I am in both places. I do a lot of walking on Shabbos.
28:49
When you say take over, you mean legally, right?
28:52
Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes, of course.
28:56
So I remember that morning, on Shimcha Torah morning, I had to walk between
29:00
both areas and announce that there's a war going on.
29:04
And there was a family who, Yitzchik Fitusi is the father's name,
29:09
it was his 50th birthday on Shimcha Torah.
29:13
And he understood that there's a war down south, and he knew that his son is down there on a base.
29:21
And he wasn't sure if he could continue dancing he wasn't sure,
29:25
what's going on with his son and then on Moshe Shabbos we heard first of all
29:31
there was another chayal who
29:32
was in shul that morning and half of my shul emptied out whether it was,
29:37
adults or chayalim they emptied out in the middle of shul to go to battle and
29:43
the first right after Havdada the first thing you heard was another chayal was mordam ve muncham.
29:50
How do you say that in English? Yeah, I don't even know. Yeah.
29:54
He was put to sleep in order to keep him safe.
29:59
He was sedated, I think that's how you say it. And at first we were very nervous. That was a bad sign.
30:04
And so that was the initial shock that the yeshuv went into until we understood that he's okay.
30:10
His leg was injured until today. His leg was injured.
30:13
We also have other chayalim throughout the war that have been injured from Talmud.
30:17
That was the initial shock. but only later on
30:20
that night when all the families tried to make contacts
30:23
with their chayalim that were on base and the Fitusi family wasn't able to contact
30:31
him so they understood that something happened and it took until Monday for
30:37
them to hear anything because Shura was full of so many bodies.
30:41
Shura is the army base where they process and identify the bodies and prepare them for burial.
30:47
And only on Wednesday was he officially identified.
30:51
And on Thursday, we had the first Leviah for Yishai Pitusi, who was a chayal in Golani.
30:58
So that was a long time, from Shabbos until Thursday. That was the longest,
31:04
I think, of the families that went through such a difficult time,
31:08
even before the burial. And then seven more days of Shiva.
31:12
And then that was right away, first day, first week.
31:16
Right after Chanukah, another chayal who grew up in a yeshuv,
31:22
he just got married and he had a child three months before.
31:26
And his name? His name was Maoz Fennekstein, Hashem Yikom Domo.
31:31
He was killed in Aza right after Chanukah. And then...
31:37
That was immediate. He got the knock on the door, and it was an announcement.
31:42
Unfortunately, he immediately killed.
31:45
Two months later, right before Purim, an American family that made Aliyah years
31:51
ago, it's funny to call them an American family because they've been in Israel for years,
31:55
their son, Maoz Morel, who was in the Sayeret of Tzanchanim, he was injured.
32:03
And then there was a Thursday night, and they quickly ran to the hospital.
32:07
And he was out until Monday, out of consciousness. Yeah.
32:15
And on Monday, he passed away. Then again, the vayas and Siddhi V'sheva.
32:23
And the last one was just now. From Purim until Hanukkah.
32:29
Well, we had that chayal killed in a pigua and the girl who died from cancer.
32:33
But from the war side, it was quiet. We had some injuries.
32:37
Injuries, but just now, right before Hanukkah now, my neighbor,
32:41
a family named Diener, their son Hillel, he was killed in Aza,
32:46
and it was a one-day kind of announcement.
32:52
First they told him they were injured, that he was injured, then within a few
32:55
hours they understood that he was dead.
32:58
Like you said, Hashem, we should always remember them for a blessing.
33:04
You said before when I asked you about what could you possibly say,
33:07
given that initial shock, and you said that you're basically just there.
33:12
That's what any practical rabbinic course would tell a rabbi to do in that situation.
33:18
A basher husham, just to be there. And we taught in Barkai. Barkai is a program
33:24
that trains rabbis that I founded and that Rabbi Zev participated in.
33:30
We learned a lot about chaplaincy.
33:32
And bedrock principle of chaplaincy is not to always talk, just to listen.
33:39
And I often say about Barkai that the most important thing that we teach rabbis
33:44
how to do is exactly what you're talking about, how to be there and how to just listen.
33:50
But that's very, very difficult, especially in a world today where everyone is always talking.
33:56
Listening is very, very difficult, I always say, because you're often thinking
34:00
about what you're going to answer instead of focusing on what the person is saying.
34:05
So don't you see that as being difficult? Don't you think that maybe sometimes
34:09
you feel like you have to give some kind of answer about why this happened,
34:14
what to do next, or do you find it easy to just, you know, be there?
34:20
As I said before, when I come into that situation, I sort of put myself in task
34:24
mode, and I sort of separate my sechel and my regesh, my emotional side and my logical side.
34:33
My emotional side wants to ask all the questions and to help them answer all the questions.
34:39
Maybe it's not healthy for my mental state, but I sort of move into, okay, I'm in a job here.
34:47
I'm in a task, and I have to do what's good for them.
34:50
And even though rabbis like to talk or ask questions to invoke responses,
34:56
in this case, that's not my job.
34:59
My job is just to be there. I don't think that they also want answers to those
35:04
kinds of rational or immuna belief.
35:10
Where is God? Why is he doing this to me? That'll come later.
35:13
I did find myself later on, either during Shiva or after Shiva, usually during Shiva.
35:21
There's swamps with visitors and people coming to be menachem avel.
35:27
Afterwards, when things quiet down, that's when I step in again.
35:30
And then their questions come up, and then we talk and make sure that all of their kids,
35:37
are taken care of, because the parents have to take care of themselves,
35:40
but also each kid has to be observed to make sure that they're stable.
35:47
That's where I step in, and then I'm, I guess, more verbal, more concerned about
35:52
their health physically and mentally and spiritually and emotionally.
36:00
Now, you mentioned a few minutes ago your own mental health,
36:04
and you're talking about giving so much and helping families so much in very,
36:09
very difficult situations.
36:11
What do you do about yourself? Do you take care of yourself?
36:14
How do you take care of yourself?
36:15
Like you said before, you're on the tough kid, but you have to make sure that
36:19
you could take care of yourself so you could be there for other people.
36:22
First of all, it's the other way to be.
36:24
But I'm not going to hide it. It's not without its toll. It has a toll.
36:29
Four families like that, and then trying to keep the spirits of the Yishuv high,
36:35
and isn't there a story about the Rebbe that,
36:39
He used to sweat every time, and he used to take off the jacket and put on the
36:43
jacket every time a new family came in to talk to him.
36:46
A Rebeth, I forget exactly the story, he sat all day long and listened to everybody's
36:51
stories that they came to tell him, and then every time Keilu took off his jacket
36:56
and put on their jacket to feel what they're going through.
36:59
That's what I feel, that every time this happens, I move into the family and
37:04
I become part of the family as much as they allow me.
37:08
And it is emotionally draining. Baruch Hashem, my wife Shoshi is a good place
37:14
for me to share my thoughts.
37:18
And see ya'll to the Shema. Well, Hashem should continue to give you your help,
37:22
the help that you need in order to continue to face these challenges.
37:27
You spoke before about when you prepare a eulogy, when you prepare a hesped,
37:32
that you talk about a lot of things.
37:34
And one of those things you spoke about was the Sirut Nefesh.
37:37
The dedication and the willingness to give up one's life of these soldiers.
37:42
So talk a little bit about that, Mitzirut Nefesh.
37:45
I'm very glad you asked me to talk about that.
37:51
There's a Gemara in Brachot that says that there were two generations.
37:57
One generation looked at the previous generation and said, why did they get
38:02
so many miracles and we don't get so many miracles?
38:05
They thought, is it because they learn more Torah than we do?
38:08
And they said, no, we learn more Torah than them. So why does they deserve more miracles?
38:13
The Gemara reaches the conclusion that the previous generation got more miracles,
38:18
because they acted in Misirot Nefesh.
38:21
What does that mean? Why does Misirot Nefesh bring miracles?
38:25
So, based on Maharal, I learned from Rav Drukman, my Rosh Hashivah, the following idea.
38:32
A miracle, by definition, is defying nature, breaking nature.
38:38
So if by nature the water flows and Kriyat Yamsuf opens the waters,
38:42
that's a miracle because it defies nature.
38:45
Human nature is to defend yourself. If anybody were to throw a punch my way,
38:50
I would try and move my head or raise my hand to push off the fist.
38:56
Human nature is to defend themselves.
38:59
Human nature is to think about me. When a person stops thinking about themselves
39:05
and thinks about either other people or an idea, an ideology that he believes in,
39:13
that's at his own expense,
39:16
that's against human nature. Because human nature is always to think about yourself.
39:21
So, the Gemara says, that's Mesirat Nefesh. Mesirat Nefesh means that there's
39:26
an idea that I believe in, that I'm willing to give up thinking about myself
39:31
for that idea, even though it's against nature.
39:35
And therefore, the Maharal says, Mesirat Nefesh brings miracles because they're both against nature.
39:41
And I think that when our chayalim go to war, the most natural thing for people
39:46
would be to say, I have a wife at home, I have kids at home, I have parents at home.
39:52
You know, today's world, everyone thinks about themselves. Me,
39:55
me, and my rights. It's my right.
39:58
Everyone has their own interest and is going to fight for getting their rights and their interests.
40:04
To go to war, by definition, is not thinking about yourself.
40:09
Not defending yourself, but putting yourself in a position where your life is at stake.
40:15
For what? For an idea that I believe in, and it's called Am Yisrael.
40:19
Who has the right to live in Eretz Israel safely.
40:23
It's the privilege to fight, to have the Jewish people live in the land that God gave us.
40:31
And even if it means giving up my life for that idea, that Mesirot Nefesh is
40:38
what the Jewish people in Israel, I believe, really live daily.
40:43
In Israel, we don't think about ourselves. We think about what's good for the Jewish people.
40:49
Everyone that goes to the army everyone that goes to every girl that goes to
40:52
Shrud Lumi instead of going,
40:55
and finding the quickest careers they can start making money and working in
41:00
the profession they give up years of their lives to serve the country because
41:05
in this country we don't live for ourselves we live for the good of the people
41:09
that's called Misur Nefesh and there's Misur Nefesh to different degrees the.
41:15
Highest degree of Misur Nefesh is being willing to give up your life.
41:19
And I think that the chayalim that didn't die, Baruch Hashem,
41:22
weren't less Moser Nefesh.
41:24
They were willing to be Moser Nefesh just as much as the people that actually were Moser Nefesh.
41:30
I want to ask two questions before we end. I was going to ask a lot more about
41:34
Barkai because I can't do a podcast without getting it in there somehow.
41:38
But at the beginning of Barkai, we took rabbis that did not yet have jobs in synagogues.
41:44
And very quickly, we realized that it was almost a waste because if you're not
41:49
doing it, it's way too theoretical.
41:52
So after the first or second cohort, we started taking only rabbis that have
41:57
jobs because, like I said, the learning could be immediately applied.
42:02
And when the rabbis are learning, they understand the issues better than somebody who is not yet working.
42:08
So it sounds to me that you have been almost learning on the job in terms of
42:14
how to approach a lot of these very difficult dilemmas and challenges that you've had during the war.
42:21
But can you talk about whether the training that you did in Barkai,
42:27
which was in a much calmer time, was that helpful to you during this period?
42:33
So I must say that what gives me what I feel is success in my job as the Rabbi
42:41
of the Yishuv, I can attribute it, first of all, to role models that I grew up with.
42:48
I grew up in Toronto. My rabbi was Rabbi Rafael Marcus.
42:53
I often think of what he did and I often think of what he would recommend that
42:56
I do. He was a role model for me.
43:01
I'm also a Rebbe in high school, like I said. It's part of the job.
43:05
He has to also work. It's not enough Parnassah just in the rabbinate,
43:09
so he has to have other jobs as well.
43:12
I've been a Rebbe in high school for 30 years.
43:15
Where? In Hashemun A'im, there's a yeshiva b'nei akiva, and there's Hamid.
43:18
And I teach high school there.
43:21
So I'm experienced in teaching Torah and experience with youth and experience
43:27
in working with people that are in different stages of their life,
43:33
seeking and different stages of their challenges in life.
43:37
That definitely also helped me with my position. But I was very Zoha to be two
43:44
years in Berkai every Monday for seven hours.
43:48
It was a whole slew of different topics and areas from halacha to psychology to palliative.
43:56
Care, and all those things gave me different skills so that I can,
44:04
at the right time, put them and implement them in my job.
44:08
Well, I'm very glad to hear that. I want to ask you one last question.
44:12
You spoke about, at the beginning, about that you're Zoha, to be doing what you do.
44:17
And we know that as rabbis, it can be very, very difficult at times.
44:21
A lot of the difficulty you just spoke about, and that doesn't even reach the tip of the iceberg.
44:27
It could be 24-7 dealing with all kinds of very, very messy, difficult problems.
44:33
But I've always felt that, for myself, that there's a real, real deep satisfaction,
44:40
a real, what we call in Hebrew, a sipo kanefesh, that comes from doing this kind of work.
44:45
I kind of, not kind of, I see that in you as well, that as hard as you're working,
44:49
as difficult as these challenges are, that you're really able to apply your
44:54
personality, to apply your skills, and to apply the very special person that you are.
44:58
So talk about that, Sippo K'nefesh.
45:01
It's very real. It's a lot of Sippo K'nefesh.
45:06
We have B'ni Akiva in our yeshuv. And every year, there's a special Shabbat
45:11
called Shabbat Irgun, where B'ni Akiva is celebrated.
45:14
And Moshe Shabbat, the Holy Yeshuv, comes out and on the basketball court with
45:20
stands, people come and watch their kids doing their shows and presentations
45:25
and I always speak there.
45:28
And then as I'm sitting there, as I'm getting ready to go up and speak in front of the Holy Yeshuv,
45:34
I say to myself, I don't know, I was just a little kid in Toronto and here I
45:39
have this chutz, it's a real chutz, to stand in an Israeli yeshuv with hundreds
45:45
of people that want to hear what I say.
45:48
That's a tremendous tipuk. Last night, we had another example where the Noir,
45:53
the youth, high school kids, boys and girls, since just a month ago,
45:58
Hillel Dinar Hashem in Kumbh was killed.
46:00
They said, we want the Noir. We want to learn Mishnayot and finish Shas Mishnayot
46:06
in his memory and the memory of all the four boys. So last night.
46:12
We worked, for the past two weeks, I and the youth worked on planning this event.
46:16
Last night we had an event, they made us see them, the whole yeshuv was invited.
46:20
They also had songs, like almost like a hidva adut.
46:24
And I stood in front of the people that came, and I just felt that this is a
46:28
tremendous hut, that they seeked me out to try and plan this program with them.
46:33
And you see that somehow people are touched, and people are touched in the ways
46:37
that you want them to be touched.
46:39
And it's just the minute, the more times I have opportunities to see that it's
46:44
touching people, it's just a tremendous ebuk nefesh.
46:48
Well, you talked about just a few minutes ago, the Maharal and Mesirut Nefesh
46:52
bringing along miracles.
46:54
And then you said that the people, the soldiers that didn't get killed have
46:58
just as much Mesirut Nefesh as the ones that do.
47:02
So why, you said, because they're thinking of others. So I'd just like to conclude
47:07
by really complimenting I'm praising you because by that definition,
47:11
you're also a Moser Nefesh because you're putting all the people in your yeshuv
47:15
as your central interest.
47:18
And so that should bring miracles for our people, for our world.
47:22
And Hashem should only give you the strength that you need to continue to lead
47:27
Talmon in the way that you've led it up till now.
47:31
And as we know, life in Israel, life everywhere has its ups and downs.
47:35
So we've had a major down and so we look forward to the ups where you could
47:41
come again and you could talk about your leadership during very, very joyous times.
47:45
So we hope that that happens very soon. Thank you very much.
47:48
I just want to give you one story. Okay.
47:51
Which happened twice in the past. The same story happened twice in the past
47:55
two months and I think it's connected to what you're saying.
47:58
The girl that died from cancer, she passed away on Yudala Tishrei the night
48:03
before Sukkot. She was buried in Erev Sukkos.
48:07
And the last Chayal that was killed, he was killed two days before Hanukkah.
48:14
And both families had to say Shecheyanu.
48:18
The girl's family buried her in
48:20
the morning and then had to say Shecheyanu sitting in the sukkah at night.
48:25
Chayal's family, Hillel Diner, they started sitting in Shiva and then the day
48:30
later they had to say Shecheyanu lighting the candles. And the first night of
48:33
Hanukkah. The first night of Hanukkah.
48:35
And I knew that the words would be so difficult for them to say.
48:42
How can you really say those words and mean it?
48:45
Thank you for having us reach this moment. In the middle of Sheva.
48:50
So I went over to each one of them in time and I said, I know this is going
48:56
to be a difficult moment for you.
48:58
And as hard as it is going to be to say those words, I'm giving you a hug,
49:02
I'm giving you chizuk, that you should be able to say, she'echiyanu ve'kiyymanu ve'gyanu z'man azeh.
49:07
So I'm reminded of that because we need to be, not only in the times of death
49:12
and challenges, we should also be able to live and say she'echiyanu and to have
49:19
full identity with that,
49:21
full identification with the idea of she'echiyanu,
49:24
where a yishuv with life, And we're a nation with life. I'm Yisrael Chai.
49:30
And we've seen that some posts can have said that you could even say Shachianu
49:36
when you see the release of the Katufim.
49:39
So we too should have opportunity to say Shachianu in the days and weeks ahead.
49:44
But I really want to thank you for coming in.
49:47
Some of this stuff is not very easy to talk about, to talk about your inner
49:51
thoughts and your mental health and all kinds of things like that.
49:54
So I thank you very much for being with us today and really giving people a
50:00
real inside look into what goes on sort of behind the scenes,
50:04
especially with such a skilled rabbi as yourself. So I want to thank you. Thank you very much.
50:09
Thank you for joining me on Defining Moments. Remember to subscribe to the podcast
50:13
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50:19
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50:23
both by this period in Jewish and Israeli history and by the people who are
50:27
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50:29
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50:31
Maybe the next defining moment will be created by you or me.
50:35
Until next time, I'm Rabbi David Fine.
50:39
Music.