Latest / The Bold Lounge / Michelle Bufano: The Courage to Choose Yourself- A Bold Entrepreneur’s Journey

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Michelle Bufano: The Courage to Choose Yourself- A Bold Entrepreneur’s Journey · The Bold Lounge

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: My name is Leigh Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Every week, we'll hear from someone who has taken a leap or embarked on an extraordinary journey.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they use to make things happen.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Whether they face challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be freed.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Today we have Michelle Buffano.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: After 26 years of defending large corporations in commercial and products liability cases, michelle decided to leave life as a litigator behind.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Currently, michelle is the founder and CEO of Michelle Buffano Business Consulting LLC, where she leverages her legal background to help female entrepreneurs navigate risk and thrive in business.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Her personal and professional vision statement is a world where all women thrive.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Michelle is also the founding partner of the Law Offices of Michelle M Buffano LLC, a small practice dedicated to providing legal services to female founders.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: In addition to assisting women in fulfilling their entrepreneurial dreams, michelle is the founder of, and primary contributor to, the Midpoint blog, as well as a coach, author, keynote speaker and discussion facilitator through her company, mmb Media LLC.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Dba.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: As her point, her first book, views from the Midpoint, is expected to be released in early 2025, and she is part of the most recent book Own your Story.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge, michelle.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me Leigh, so I'm excited to jump in to your definition of bold.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: What does bold look like in Michelle Buffano's world?
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: I think bold for me is stepping outside my comfort zone.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what does that look like in your world, what does your comfort zone look like and what does it feel or look like when you step outside of it?
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: I think my comfort zone is what's familiar, what I've done before, what I already have knowledge of.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: When I step outside my comfort zone, it's typically something I've never done or tried before, something I don't necessarily know a lot about and have to learn.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: Okay, excellent.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: What's a most recent time or a memorable bold moment where you've stepped outside your comfort zone?
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: I think that the most significant bold move I've made in my life was probably in about 2021, when I stopped being who everybody expected me to be and wanted to be and just sort of accepted who I was and embraced who I was.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: One of the things that, when you say that so your bold move is being you.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that is not an understated bold move.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's big.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: And a lot of the times when I talk to my clients or even organizations and you've heard me say this probably is the easiest person it should be is to be you.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Right, that should be the person that's easiest to be.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: But it is not that way and I've experienced that my career.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: What do you think were some of the things that made you or created this space where you thought you couldn't be you in your life?
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: Well, I was in kind of a very uptight working environment and I don't mean that in terms of my last firm.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: I you know the field itself, legal, exactly.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: You know law firms are, you know, can be stuffy and they lawyers are expected to act and behave a certain way.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: And I found, as I got more experienced and more and older, that the expectation I thought it was going to be easier for me Once you kind of you know you're climbing the ladder, once you get to the top or the near top, things are supposed to get easier.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: And I really found that the expectations that were put on me were so artificial and so male oriented that it was just a complete disconnect for me.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: So I think you know I wanted to fit in and you know everybody wants to fit into their environment.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: I wanted to conform and I never felt like I did that and there was always kind of a rub for me.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: I never I wasn't not successful, I was a successful lawyer, but it never felt exactly right to me because I was acting how everybody else wanted me to act.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: I wasn't following my gut.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: It's definitely really hard to start to not conform in a very conformist environment.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, expectations conventions you act this way.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: I could say the same thing for healthcare.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: Even going back all the way to my master's degree, I remember showing up to school the first day just in jeans and a hoodie and everyone was in a suit.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: I didn't get the memo, obviously.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: Right right, right right.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: I get it.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: And I was like, whoa, like to be a healthcare executive, I have to wear a suit, even in school.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: It was like training for what you're going to get into, which I get now.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: But it was like, okay, I get it, like I need to start in a way I'll use your word conforming to the environment, I'll be in because this is going to be very important.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: And I guess that's when it started, right, you know, like it started all for me all the way back to graduate school, and then there'd be peaks and valleys, I think where along my career, in my early forties, I don't know how old you were when you started your business or kind of said I'm going to be me.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: I was 48.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: I was 50, 50 ish, okay, 50 ish.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: So I'm the same, yeah, yeah, so pretty much the same zone, right.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: And it was just like it's just so much energy to be anything but me and I had burnout.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: Did you ever experience burnout in your role?
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: I don't know that it was burnout, but I was sick to death of the whole thing and bored and I just didn't want to do it Like this is not how I wanted to spend my the rest of my life.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: Like I kind of woke up one day and was like this is not what's making me happy.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: It's not that I was so unhappy, right.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: I felt like I wasn't reaching my potential and I wasn't going to within those confines.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: So you had some signals, or some signs along the way, right.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: So those sound like some of them.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Anything else people or women should specifically look out for when they're in that, when you were in that spot of like, I feel like I'm not being me most of the time.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: Anything else that would be signals that maybe think about it.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: Well, one of the that was interesting for me is when I felt uncomfortable being somebody else, but I'm not sure I knew exactly who I was either.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: So in some ways, it's hard to be you when you're not exactly sure who that person is.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: So I had worked with a coach and it was a business coach, because I'd been thinking about starting my own business, and one of the things we started with was what my core values were.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: Honestly, at the time I thought it was a stupid waste of time exercise, like I thought it was, you know, like too fluffy and feely, and I wanted to know.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: You know how to write your, your lawyer, like what are the facts, what's the data?
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: So we spent really several weeks going through my core values and once I had those clear, once those were defined for me and they weren't just my core values for business, they were core values for my life- and once I kind of realized what those were and looked at where I was and it wasn't just at work, it was other places too.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: I wasn't living those core values and I felt like other people's values were kind of being forced on me and that became untenable, Like I couldn't do it anymore hardest step of the bold continuum usually is the first one.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: We may have things come up here or there along the way that aren't easy for sure, but that first step usually is the hardest.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what got you to that point and what helped you make that step?
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: To say I'm going to be me, I'm going to figure out who I am first of all, and then I'm going to be me now that I've figured it out.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: I think it really was kind of going back to just I was feeling smothered by other people's expectations and doing what everybody else wanted me to do, and it just kind of hit Like you got to that point of not doing it anymore.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: Right, Like I just, you know, hit the boiling point and you know that was it.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: I was done and, to be honest, I decided to leave my firm.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: I had a plan and I wasn't planning on telling them when I told them, but we were having a comp meeting at the beginning of 2023.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: And.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: I just kind of flirted out yeah, let's not even bother to do this, because I remember like our conversation, like it went from like I'm going to do it X, and then it was like it got expedited right.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, it absolutely got expedited.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, when that's one of the things when I'm coaching individuals too, is I say, now that you've written it down and now that you've figured it out, what your steps are going to be, which is bold, it might happen sooner than later, right, you know?
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: I think, five out of six times.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Once you know where you're going or what your next step is, why wait Right?
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: And that's actually the advice I got at one point.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: You know, a few months after I said I'm going to leave at the end of the year which I ended up leaving in May of that year, our CEO to me like, what are you doing?
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: And I'm just like, well, you know, I feel like I owe something to the firm.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: I've been an equity partner here for seven years.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: I feel like I can't just walk away tomorrow.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: And she's just like just walk away, just do it.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: You know what you want to do, stop wasting your time, just go and do what you need to do.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: And that was the end of March.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: So I kind of thought about it overnight and I walked in the next day and I said April 28th is my last day.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: And that was a little shocking for people.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it was as shocking as I'm leaving, but it definitely was a lot sooner.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: And for the reasons you said, once you know what you want to do, it's hard to sit still.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what are the emotions or the feelings that happened in that timeframe of I've made the bold move, I've shared the bold move and now I'm going to have to do it?
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: It was really exciting and I well, there were a bunch of emotions.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: In the first instance, I was really excited.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: I was glad to be starting my own thing.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: I felt like I had very much prepared for my new business.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: What was unexpected is, when I actually left my firm, I was grieving, and I didn't expect to grieve, and it wasn't even so much that I was grieving leaving my firm.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: It was that, oh my God, I wasn't going to practice law full time anymore and that was my entire identity, since I was in my early 20s, either a law student or a law clerk or an associate or a partner in a law firm.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: And to kind of think, oh my God, I've spent more than half my life doing this.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: And then to say okay, and on Monday I'm going to wake up and I'm not going to be this anymore, was really.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: It was sad for me in a way that I didn't expect.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: I never expected to be grieving that and it took me a good part of last summer to kind of work through those feelings and finally be like okay, I'm excited about this new business, but I also can grieve what I'm leaving behind.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: And what I'm leaving behind I can also take elements of that with me on my new journey, did you feel like part of your identity was tied to that?
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, and I know everybody says you shouldn't tire your identity.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: We're all told that right, but how can you not?
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's so much of what you do every single day.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, well, it becomes personal, right.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: So I think that's where, for me, I never like tied myself to my title, what I was called, but I definitely tied myself to the industry and the mission of our work, which I see that with you as well and what I did was very fulfilling, and so it was like, I know, when I resigned, I didn't have a plan, like you had a plan.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: I didn't have a plan because I did it on.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: You know, just, I got to make a change because of the way I felt.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: I felt like I wasn't sure what I was good at, you know, because I came out of this situation, and so there was a little bit of that of like, what do I do?
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: And I also have this excitingness of I can be anything I want At 48, I haven't felt like since 18.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Right, so, and I think we also, with experience, get to the point in our life where it's a sort of midlife crisis.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: It's a midlife awakening, and I don't really consider it midlife either Awareness, yeah yeah, awareness, evolution.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: It's hard for people to do that, though, I think and you've worked with women entrepreneurs as well to make that first step and to say they know that their work life isn't as fulfilling or that, but they are connected to I work for Google or I work for XYZ, academic, or like they don't want to be disassociated with that, but they know like something's got to give.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: And I usually say you have that feeling of something's got to give, don't brush it away.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: Start to unpack it.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: It doesn't mean you have to leave.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's just working in a different part of the organization or doing a you know something different within the role you have.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: But having that conversation about it is going to be your bold move.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Right, it could be leaving, it could mean starting your own business, lots of things it's personal.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: So when someone has that feeling of something's got to give which I'm guessing you had, oh, absolutely yeah.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: What advice or guidance would you give them?
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: To step into who they are or start being more aligned or taking the steps to be more aligned with who they really truly are?
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: I think you know, for me really, as I mentioned, the key was my core values.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and when I looked at my core values and I looked at the core values of my firm, which were, you know, written- on a little laminated card.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: They handed out.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: They weren't bad core values.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: They just weren't the same core values and kind of what runs throughout my core values is togetherness and being able to do things together and helping other people and not leaving anyone behind.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: And that runs through all of my values.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: And once I realized that's what I was meant to do, it became less scary to take that step.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: Let me say this If I had had that realization at 30, I would have never taken that step because I was just not secure enough.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: But as I realized, okay, these are my values and I was solid that sort of gave me the strength and confidence to say I can do this, so why don't I try it and see what happens?
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: They say we never regret the things we did.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: We always were, but we regret the things we never did.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: I think if you kind of think of life that way like why not?
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: What's the worst thing that can happen and I really actually do counsel that to my clients a lot throughout the process of being an entrepreneur you know someone will come to me with a contract and be scared about entering into it and the first thing we talk about is what's the worst thing that could happen If signing this contract.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: What's the worst thing that can happen?
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: And once you face what the worst thing could be, your next question is and if that happens, can I live with it?
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: And there's your answer.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: So I think it's just facing fear, facing what it is that's holding you back.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: I think is the key.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so did you have fear of change?
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: Of course, absolutely, it was changing, right.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: You've been in this organization or this field for a very long time.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: It's aligned with what you want to do to help others, but you knew there was something more for you, and it was greater than the fear that you had.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, I mean yeah, that's a good way of putting it Like it was definitely what I thought I could be was greater than what I was scared of.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: I just, you know, I knew I hadn't reached my full potential and I knew I couldn't do it where I was.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: And in order to do it, if I wanted to reach my full potential, I had to make a change.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, so what does it look like?
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: So you've left the organization and you're starting your businesses and you actually have three of them that you started over the last two years.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Did you start them all at once?
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: Did you stagger them?
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: How did they come about, more or less all together?
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, all at once.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Big, bold move, yeah, okay, wonderful.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: So, like, tell me the process you went through and I think what's nice, as an entrepreneur, you know there are ups and downs.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: It isn't all butterflies and rainbows, like I tell people, but tell me what the first three months were like for you.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: It was both exhilarating and really scary.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: I was lucky enough to leave my firm with clients.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: So part of the rub with my firm was I was taking on people who couldn't pay the hourly rate.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: So when I said I'm going to leave and I'm going to do this, and they're like well, feel free to take your clients because we don't want them I mean it wasn't that blunt, but basically that was the message.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: So I was lucky enough to start out with clients, which was great.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: So I wasn't day one.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: I wasn't sitting at my desk, like you know, waiting for the email or waiting for the text or waiting for the phone to ring.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: And what was really great is I feel like I'm part of a lot of great communities of women and every single client I have to this day has been a referral.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: So I've never had to cold call or or do any sort of extensive advertising.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Every client I have is a referral from someone who knows me.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: That's incredible.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: I mean that that's something for you know, anyone that's starting their business, or to understand one, starting with the client base.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: So if it's possible to, even you know, have one or two people that you can start off with, even one is going to feel like you can get out of the gate.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: I did not have that, but I had a list of 15 that I worked and I got there in three months.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: So I really worked diligently and then within six months I had seven clients.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: So it was something to do.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: So you may do it differently as you start off, but I think you just need one, right.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: You just need one.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: But I do think before and I didn't realize I was even doing it when I was doing it I started building up my network about two years before, not because I even imagined I was starting my own business, but because I was really honestly lonely during the pandemic and sad and I was missing human contact.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: So I joined chief and chief used to have I don't even know if they still have it.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: They used to have an affinity group on Chief where you would comment on other Chief's LinkedIn posts and I would go to that every day and I would read the other Chief's posts and I would comment on them and I never, at this point, I was not posting anything myself.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, months went by and all I was doing was reading and commenting on other people's posts and that somehow grew this community around me and people were like who is this woman?
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: Power of the comments.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Right, cohen just did a LinkedIn live about this.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so like there's another example of the power of the comment, you know, in the sense of it started to connect you to people.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: They kept seeing you pop up and like, hey, let's connect or let's talk, or let's have a coffee chat, or what do you do, or them clicking on your bio, those types of things.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: So and those are the people who have become my clients and referred clients to me.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: So I didn't even realize what I was making when I was doing it and what was really key for me.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: I wasn't doing it for any reason other than I felt lonely, which made it I wasn't out there trying to get people to hire me, because I wasn't at that point in my life yet where I needed that.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: So I was just out there just supporting other people and I didn't want or expect anything in return, and what I ended up getting in return was this beautiful community.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's a lesson there, right, so it was organic and it was authentic.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: So I think for people, a lesson there, right, so it was organic and it's authentic.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: So I think for people to hear that, so, like, when you connect with someone, the first thing you do you don't send them an ask or a sale I think that's really important and I think you did it naturally and not with an intention of I'm doing this organically and authentically so I can get clients Like it.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: It really is you and who you are.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: So you started to be you, even maybe before you knew it yes, before I knew it.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: That's fair, yeah.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: And then you get to this place and you're starting your businesses and you started with some clients.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: And then did you ever feel like, oh man, I made a mistake or I need to go back, or was it full steam ahead?
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: I know I'm going in the right direction.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: Although something might be bumpy here or there, I'm in the right space.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know that I would go that extreme to say I knew I was in the right space every moment.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, not every moment, but overall, like when you wake up, you know for me, I know I'm in the right space.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: Again, like every day is not perfect, but I would figure it out.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: I trusted myself, I bet on me.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: I will say absolutely Especially last summer, I had moments, not that I wished I hadn't left, because I've never wished I hadn't left, but there are moments where I've, like, had paralyzing panic, where I've been like, oh my God, like what if I had clients to start with and I and I've had, I had at least a client I was working on since I've started my business.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: You know who was active at one time but, like you know, august, september of last year, it was slower.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: That wasn't going to be enough to sustain a business at that time and I was worried about it.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, I was really, really worried about it and I just kind of continued to stay the course in it, did you?
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: diversify?
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: Did you add products?
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: I've seen you do some.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: At least seems like newer things or evolution of what you're doing.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: Tell me about that process.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: I think it's really important for entrepreneurs to always be looking for an alternative stream of revenue.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: I think businesses that fail, even ones that are super successful in the beginning, end up failing if they don't have their next new idea, at least you know, in their pocket.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: So I'm always trying to think of new ways to generate revenue and new offerings and new products and different ways to do it, and I've made absolutely you know a gazillion mistakes along the way.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: You know, like I have, I have clients where you know they were new.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: They were referred to me by someone from cheap who was like, basically my advocate from like the day I joined cheap and they I didn't even think they were going to go with me and they went with me and I so low ball the price and it took me like I'm not even joking like 50 times as long to do the project as I thought it was going to.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: I didn't go back and obviously charge them more, but I did tell them listen, this is taking me significantly longer than I anticipated.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: I completely lowballed the price.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: I'm honoring the price.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: That's the price we agreed to, but please don't go and tell other people.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, or think if we do more it'll be the same, right, right, yeah, let's stay there for a second.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: So one of the things that happens early on and I experienced this when I was trying to get my first set of clients is, you know, I had my set price and then it wasn't working.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: So I swung the other way and went way low.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: I think at one point I was $99 an hour, wow, and of course they said yes, but both of us were miserable, right?
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: So, like I did the project and we talked about it at the end and I had the same type of conversation you had.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: I was like you know, I really, you know my original hourly rate was correct, you know, for 25 years of experience and all things I did.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: And then, I think you know where we like rubbed, you know, was your expectation of me to work at the you know X number of level, but you were only paying me $99 an hour and so, like that might sound high to people, but when you have that much experience, it is, it is not.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: And so it was interesting for me to kind of go through that and I only did it once.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: Did you do it more than once?
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: I have been very organic in my pricing.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, so it's like case by case basis in a way, because you also look at what they're able to do right and what they're able to provide, what you can provide for what they need, yes, yes and you know, and it really it depends.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, in the end I've only had one person completely screw me over with money.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: I mean that's good.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: There have been people who have overpaid because they knew it took more time than I said.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: So they, you know, they made up for it themselves.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: They, they paid what they thought was fair, with more than what I was planning on charging them.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, I'm still finding my way and all of that.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: And you know I feel comfortable more or less about how I'm quoting pricing now, but it's hard, and especially going from a law firm environment where I had tons of support.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: When I and when I say that I mean paralegal.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: So when I'm pricing things and thinking, oh, it's going to take me two hours, I'm not thinking about all the three other people who would make me happen and make that going to take me two hours.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: I'm not thinking about all the three other people who would make me happen and make that happen for me in three hours.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: Those people don't exist anymore.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: You're all of them Right.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: And then how you know using tools and things like that that you know help you invoice or help you do some of the back office stuff I think is really important along the way as well.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: For sure, for sure.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, no, I feel like every day is a new.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: Truly, I learned something new every day.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: I do something great every day.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: I do something stupid every day.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: That's great.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you're human, that sounds good, yeah, I mean.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: And it also has actually been helpful to my clients in the sense that you know they understand that none of us go into this knowing everything.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: We'll never know everything, and that's okay.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: You know being able to spot issues.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: So if I can't do something for my clients, I have enough knowledge and awareness to say this is outside of my wheelhouse.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: Let me refer to you to somebody else.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's one of the myths of being bold that I talk about too is like being bold means you're doing it alone, and I don't think that's the case, not always.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: So I think you just kind of exemplified that and like it doesn't always have to be me who answers the call, like I could just connect you to who can right, who has the skill or the effort or the time or whatever it may be.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: So I think that's something that I learned during the last four years, because before that, I always felt like it was my responsibility to do it all, to answer it all, to be there, to be responsible, and I think unlearning that a little bit was a good thing for me, and I don't know if you've experienced anything like that as well.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: No, I have.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: And what's actually been kind of interesting to me is I've actually had a few clients who I've referred out to other people.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: Some people have paid me to just kind of go along with them on the ride to the next person.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like I really have become a trusted advisor to other people and they're willing to pay me to listen into the conversation to make sure that it sounds right to me, which has been kind of amazing.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so what are the problems you saw?
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: So folks listening know what to come to you for across your businesses.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: I really focus on risk management and that really takes a lot of different forms.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: Most of what I feel like I've been doing as of late is I've been doing a ton of contract work, reviewing contracts, drafting contracts.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: But I like to think I have a client who was my first client once I started my business, like she was my first new client.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: She's like oh, I always tell people to hire you because you're not like a real lawyer, Thank you, and I'm like okay, but what she means by that is I really try to help my clients empower themselves.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: So, for example, if I draft a contract for you, I do it on a flat rate and that includes us spending time after the final contract is done, going over the contract.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: So you understand why every single provision is there.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: It it's not just language that lawyers throw in.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: Everything that we put in your contract is going to be there for a good reason and I want you to understand that reason.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: And you know people have said to me oh, I can't believe you're giving them, you know, the keys to the kingdom.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: You're telling them what to do.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: They are going to do not hire you to do these things.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: And I was like listen, if they don't hire me to do this, I suspect they'll hire me to do something else and I got to tell you most people still hire me to do it because they don't want to.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, there are things I can do myself, but I don't want to do them.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: I'd much rather have you do it.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: Well, exactly.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: So.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: It really hasn't been a problem because the hourly rate model is so prevalent in law firms.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: I don't think that lawyers really spend that kind of time with their clients.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: So I really spend a lot of time making sure you understand why we're doing what we're doing, so that at a minimum, you get a contract and you look at it and you know, oh my gosh, here's an indemnity clause.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: They're trying to put all the liability on me.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: You know, red flag, stop.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: I can't have that.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly so.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: In risk management it takes a lot of different forms, so like if you're creating a contract or if you're thinking about starting a business, or am I LLC or S Corp or C Corp?
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: These are things you can help people with.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: You know, as well as kind of, I feel like I do a lot of.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: I've been reviewing people's websites a lot to make sure their privacy policies are in compliance with the laws and just making sure they're not making statements that can get them in trouble later, like you know, over promising sort of things.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: So I do all of that.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: But there's definitely lots of forms that risk management takes.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: You know it's the contracts, it's, you know, picking what kind of corporate formation you want.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: It is cybersecurity, protecting your property, your intellectual property.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: It's all of those things.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, okay, I love that.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: So all the information about the three businesses.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: There's episode notes for everyone to see.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about your new book, let's talk about own your story and then the book you also the second book I guess you'll have coming out.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: So tell me about own your story and your connection to really your bold move, which is being you Right exactly.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Well, it all comes full circle with this book in a lot of ways.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: One of the editors of the book is someone who was one of my partners at my old law firm, and the truth of the matter is we knew each other but we didn't ever talk, we weren't friends and we weren't enemies, we just ships passing in the night.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: And when I started on LinkedIn commenting on things, she and I reconnected and she is one of the editors of this book and it was really by sharing our stories with each other on LinkedIn that we have formed this bond.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: And when she was working on this book, she asked me if I'd like to write a chapter.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: So getting to write it has kind of that story and human connection behind it.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: So basically it's supposed to be an anthology about women just sharing their experiences, you know whether it be challenges they've overcome or finding themselves or whatnot and mine is really kind of starts from.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: It begins with me being in second grade.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: My chapter.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: That's where my bold move, my memorable moment is too second grade yeah, and it was.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: you know, I last day of school teacher said what do you want to be when you grow up?
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: I said a lawyer.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: And kind of how the rest of my life sort of progressed from that moment and ways it was satisfying, the ways it wasn't satisfying, the ways where I needed a career that was convenient maybe not as challenging, but convenient when my kids were little and it really did serve that purpose.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: And then the epiphany I had that led me to not want to practice law on a regular basis anymore and start out on my own and help other women.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: And the helping the other women part is really very, very important part of the work I do.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: I don't think anybody was purposely trying to keep me down or anything like that.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: I just think that people think about themselves and in thinking about themselves they're not thinking about anybody was purposely trying to keep me down or or anything like that.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: I just think that people think about themselves and in thinking about themselves they're not thinking about other people.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: So, I always felt lost in the shuffle of, you know, the white middle-aged men who were kind of a pack together, and it made me feel helpless and disenfranchised and powerless, and I don't want any other woman to ever feel that way again.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: So what I try to do when I am working with my clients is to empower them.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: So really, my chapter is about how I empowered myself and my plans to empower other women.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Okay, excellent.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: Well, I encourage everyone to pick this book up for your chapter and for the learnings from the other 29 women weave together in such a great great way.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: Yes, so tell me about your other book.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: So you're working on another book, your book that you'll be the primary author of views from the midpoint.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, which I've been working on for a while and then kind of put down and now back to working on again.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: And part of discovering myself back during the pandemic was writing for me.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: I was having a really hard time with the pandemic itself and it's not because anybody was dying, but kind of more the emotional aspects of it, all the uncertainty, the isolation, all of that.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: And what helped me get through that was writing.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: So I started this blog and at one point when I and I haven't written much in the blog lately because I'm trying to focus on the book but somebody said you should turn this into a book.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: So the book's tentative title is views from the midpoint, because it is kind of a takeoff on the midpoint blog, and it's really about the things almost the things I wish I had known 20 years ago.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: And it's not that I feel like I'm so wise, it's just life teaches you what's important and I feel like I wasted so much time in my twenties and thirties and even forties worrying about not my core values, not even knowing what my core values were, and this is just a book about finding your way.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: So it's kind of a little self-help, a little memoir, I don't know.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: I kind of think of it as and this is going to sound like I'm being arrogant and I'm not, but it's it's kind of Brene Brown-ish in style, and that it takes parts of my life and then tries to extract lessons that might be helpful to others.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: And part of the reason why I share it as well is because I don't want other people again, I don't want women, to feel alone.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, people think you know when you're going through things and you don't share it because you're embarrassed or you're ashamed or whatever, you tend to think you're the only person in the world going through something and that there's something wrong with you.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: And a lot about this book is hoping that people understand we all go through it.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, we all do, Right.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: I think that's that's really the message here is like don't feel alone in your journey as a woman when you're going through life, because there's no reason to be alone, whether you just start commenting on someone's post or whether you do a direct reach out.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: You don't have to.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: You know there's a whole continuum of stepping forward and into it and trying some things and being curious or just maybe getting that.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: Going back to your definition, stepping out of your comfort zone and the way that you did it, which was really stepping out, knowing something's got to give right, and then starting with your coach and talking about your own values and seeing if you were living your life aligned to your values once you had them defined, and then what you did was then those values became the map for what you were going to do next.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: And they honestly still are my map.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, there are days when I'm, you know, in the thick of it and I'm like, why the hell am I doing this?
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: And I have my values pinned up on my wall and I look at them and it really does help recenter me and calm me down when I'm in a panic over something that I shouldn't be panicking over.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: I look at my values, I'm like, okay, you got this.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you definitely have this.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: So, as we close out, what guidance or advice would you give someone who's just starting to figure out their values?
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: Maybe someone's listening and goes I don't even know what my values are.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: What's the first step in that that someone can do?
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: I think it's really just to reflect If you have the luxury of time to do that, reflect on what's most important to you and to understand.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: It's not something you're going to figure out in five minutes.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: It's really a continuum.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: It's iterative, right, right, and these may change for me as we go along.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: The values I'm looking at right now are not the values I would have had 20 years ago.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: I would have written down.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: So I think it's being kind of thoughtful and reflective and understanding that just as you put it to paper doesn't mean that's it.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: They can change, you can adjust, but it really is taking the time to reflect on what's most important to you.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: And you know, as I said, people not being alone and people being together is what goes through all of my core values.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the togetherness.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for being on the Bold Lounge.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: All the information about Michelle, her books and her business are below in the episode notes.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Michelle.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Lee, I appreciate it.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: Through the continuum of bold stories vulnerability to taking a leap you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.