Latest / The Book Deal / Katherine Collette on the highs and lows of publishing and how to build resilience

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Katherine Collette on the highs and lows of publishing and how to build resilience · The Book Deal

0:40
Tina: Our guest this week on the Book Deal podcast is the ever knowledgeable Katherine Collette.
0:46
Tina: You may know Katherine from her books The Helpline, The Competition, and most recently her middle grade series The Two Tall Tales of Alma T Best.
0:55
Tina: Or from her many years as one half of the podcasting duo from the first time podcast or through her most recent endeavor as a book coach, Katherine Collette is an absolute wealth of information on all things, writing from practical tips on the craft of writing, how to turn writing into a career, publishing and marketing advice.
1:16
Tina: And of course, how to work towards the book deal.
1:20
Tina: I was so excited to interview Katherine because we had so many questions to ask her.
1:25
Tina: So many, in fact, I didn't get around to asking them all.
1:28
Tina: Hopefully I can secure her for another interview really soon.
1:32
Tina: Writers from all stages of their writing journey will find gold within Katherine's candid responses as she shares the ups and downs of her own writing journey, how a book coach can help you achieve your goals, and the common themes she finds.
1:46
Tina: Amongst emerging writers.
1:48
Tina: Katherine Collette.
1:49
Tina: Welcome to the book deal podcast.
1:52
Katherine: Thank you.
1:53
Katherine: I'm so excited to be here.
1:54
Katherine: This podcast has the best name.
1:56
Katherine: You guys really nailed it with
1:57
Tina: Oh, well, we like it to kind of do what it says on the tin is like, talk about, talk about the book deal.
2:04
Katherine: I mean, it's a great podcast as well.
2:06
Katherine: It has the added benefit of having it.
2:08
Tina: Yeah.
2:09
Tina: It's all about the title.
2:11
Tina: we are being super excited to have you here as a guest on the pod for many reasons.
2:16
Tina: One is you are a wealth of publishing knowledge, um, not only from your long time podcast, the first time, which was all about your journey as a debut author, um, but you're also now a book coach and you have three soon to be four books published.
2:35
Tina: All up.
2:36
Tina: So, um, so we know our listeners are going to get so much out of this interview with you, as am I.
2:43
Katherine: I.
2:43
Katherine: hope So
2:44
Tina: absolutely, uh, first let's start with your latest book, The Too Tall Tales of Alma T.
2:50
Tina: Bess, which also has a great name.
2:52
Tina: Congratulations, uh, released in September.
2:56
Tina: Yeah, uh,
2:57
Katherine: September.
2:58
Katherine: So it's been out for a little while.
3:05
Katherine: Mm hmm.
3:06
Tina: So we share a publisher now, which is cool.
3:09
Katherine: It's very cool.
3:10
Katherine: HarperCollins is a big publisher too, working in adult and kids spaces.
3:15
Tina: Mm hmm.
3:16
Tina: Sure is.
3:17
Tina: so, because I'm a debut author, obviously one of the things that I need to get my head around and all authors have to really, um, emerging authors, aspiring authors is the one liner, the one line pitch that sells your book.
3:31
Tina: So Katherine, give us your one
3:34
Katherine: Cringy, right?
3:35
Katherine: Oh God.
3:36
Katherine: And I, I talk to this, talk to people about this.
3:39
Katherine: So the sort of maximal pressure, the one liner that they use on marketing stuff is tall girl from a small town.
3:46
Katherine: So it is about a tall girl from a small town who hates basketball, uh, and ends up Playing basketball.
3:54
Katherine: That's a terrible pitch.
3:55
Katherine: I wish I had pre prepared a bit more.
3:58
Katherine: Um, an interesting thing though, because pitching is a little bit top of mind for me.
4:02
Katherine: I'm doing a group coaching program at the moment.
4:04
Katherine: In a couple of weeks, we're going to talk pitching.
4:07
Katherine: I think that the query letter and the pitch that people put in the query letter when they're shopping around for an agent or publisher gets so much airtime when You do a verbal pitch often, or sometimes people will just read their query letter aloud.
4:23
Katherine: So they might just do like a This is a heartwarming and hilarious tale for fans of the Wimpy Kid or something else.
4:32
Katherine: Which in a verbal pitch is quite an odd thing to do.
4:35
Katherine: So one of the things I always say to people is the query letter pitch or the written pitch is very different from a verbal pitch.
4:42
Katherine: But I haven't really showcased my best efforts in giving you
4:46
Tina: Well, no, it's good.
4:47
Tina: It's very comforting.
4:49
Tina: It's actually really comforting because, uh, yeah, I kind of freeze when people ask me to and I'm like, uh, it's about a girl that lives in a zoo.
4:56
Tina: I feel like that captures
4:58
Katherine: a good one line.
4:59
Katherine: I feel like that's all you need.
5:00
Katherine: I often say that it's a tall girl is a small town and it combines my two great loves of basketball and sewage farms.
5:08
Tina: That's that is perfect.
5:10
Tina: You know, and kids, if it's for kids, I'll be like, Oh, sewage farms, basketball and sewage farms can't get much better than that.
5:17
Tina: See, that's great one.
5:18
Tina: It's perfect.
5:19
Tina: All right.
5:19
Tina: Well, I wish I had signed up for your coaching course because I would, I'm really keen on that pitching session.
5:26
Tina: Um, so, but this is the first time you've had a kid's book published, isn't it?
5:32
Tina: Because before you were adults.
5:34
Katherine: So my first two books were adult books and then I was sitting down to write a third book during COVID and I live in Melbourne.
5:43
Katherine: We had a lot of, a lot of, a lot, a lot of lockdowns in Melbourne.
5:47
Katherine: I think a lot of writers through Covid, whether they were here or not, felt a lot of creative malaise.
5:52
Katherine: And I remember thinking the idea of an adult book was just too hard.
5:56
Katherine: And I had been sitting on a sewerage farm concept for a while, and so I thought I'd write a, a middle grade book because my kids are off that middle grade age group.
6:06
Katherine: And so I wrote it in Covid and I read it to my kids as I wrote it.
6:11
Tina: yeah, I've heard a lot of that and it was, it's been proven, hasn't it, that in times of, or in countries even, I can't remember where I heard this recently, could have even been you on your own podcast.
6:24
Tina: I'm going to, I'm going to quote it back to you.
6:26
Tina: Um, so in times of, you know, hardship or, um, even in countries that are, You know, having a really, um, like the whole country's having some turmoil, the, the books that people are choosing to read and the movies people are choosing to see, uh, like uplifting ones, because it's kind of like, there's enough bad stuff going on right now.
6:50
Tina: I need escapism and to get out of here.
6:53
Tina: And, um, and then it's the opposite.
6:55
Tina: So in some countries where everything's going really great, they're seeing all things like horror and everything up on the rise.
7:02
Katherine: That's so interesting.
7:03
Katherine: I had not heard that.
7:05
Tina: Yeah,
7:06
Katherine: makes a lot of
7:08
Tina: sense, doesn't it?
7:09
Tina: Yeah, if you've got a lot on your mind anyway, you kind of just want to escape and have something lighter, maybe.
7:14
Tina: Yeah.
7:15
Tina: Oh, okay.
7:16
Tina: So it's um, it is possible to change genres, not even genres, but complete, like from adult to, to children's.
7:25
Tina: What have you found the biggest difference between the two?
7:30
Katherine: In the writing process, the big difference was I did illustrations for the middle grade book.
7:35
Katherine: So I made cartoons, which initially I sort of had in my mind that I would just draw some stick figures and the publisher would get an actual illustrator.
7:43
Katherine: But they ended up coming back and saying, Hey, we think you can draw like a 12 year old girl could draw.
7:50
Katherine: So we'll get you to do them.
7:51
Katherine: Which actually worked out.
7:53
Katherine: pretty well.
7:53
Katherine: So, so that was a major difference, a very time consuming difference, would add.
7:59
Katherine: Um, but the other thing is, and it seems an obvious point, is the audience is kids.
8:05
Katherine: Um, so you sort of understand that in the writing process, but when you get events, I sort of forgot that.
8:11
Katherine: So for adult books, you have an adult audience and you're interacting with adults, but then for kids books, it's not just a kid audience, it's an adult audience too.
8:20
Katherine: So you have this sort of, both groups of people in the room, which is completely different.
8:24
Katherine: I love,
8:26
Tina: that is really interesting how to target them.
8:29
Tina: So, um, The one, one of the really big things that we'd love to talk about here on the pod is the story of the yes.
8:38
Tina: So when you got your first ever yes, so can you, so your yes to publishing, you know, can you tell us, uh, so a little bit about your writing journey and then the steps that you actually took to get there?
8:52
Tina: And then the moment that a publisher actually accepted your manuscript and off and you found out you were going to be offered a contract, you know, where were you?
9:01
Tina: What were you thinking?
9:02
Tina: What were you doing?
9:03
Tina: Oh.
9:16
Katherine: I've worked mostly in engineering, but I also worked for a while in Social policy sort of disadvantaged space and the woman that worked next to me Managed it was at a council and she managed senior citizen centers and one day she was like, oh, can you just come with me?
9:31
Katherine: I've got to do something.
9:32
Katherine: I can't remember why she needed me and I was like, yeah, okay for sure fine so we drove to this particular senior citizen center and she I hadn't met the president of the club.
9:42
Katherine: So a senior citizen said to just a building and they run all sorts of activities for older people.
9:47
Katherine: The woman that was the elected president met us at the door.
9:50
Katherine: She came up in a motorized wheelchair and she, she didn't say hello or anything.
9:56
Katherine: She just.
9:57
Katherine: was basically yelling.
9:58
Katherine: She was absolutely furious because the Chinese subgroup of senior citizens had been playing mahjong in the bingo room and the bingo room was for bingo and she was livid.
10:10
Katherine: So she had, they had had sandwiches or food or something in the fridge, um, that they were going to eat in their meeting.
10:17
Katherine: She had taken all of the sandwiches out of the shared fridge and put them in the bin just as a way of punishment.
10:24
Katherine: Like the weirdest story and, um, I just remember looking at her and she had the motorized wheelchair, absolutely furious.
10:32
Katherine: She had some, you know, choice words that she was kind of swearing and all the rest of it.
10:37
Katherine: And I had this out of body moment where I just thought to myself, I sort of saw myself and I thought to myself, if you do something with this moment, it will change your life.
10:49
Katherine: And What I did with that moment was I wrote a short story about it, and I just knew that something would happen from that.
10:59
Katherine: So I wrote a short story.
11:01
Katherine: It was not a great short story.
11:02
Katherine: I, um, I had done a little bit of blogging, but I really hadn't written a thing since high school.
11:08
Katherine: I liked writing in high school.
11:10
Katherine: I liked fiction writing.
11:11
Katherine: I liked comedy, little acting things, and I liked cartoons.
11:15
Katherine: I wrote this short story.
11:16
Katherine: I didn't know anyone.
11:17
Katherine: So I gave it to one of the comms people at work, and I said, oh, could you read my short story?
11:22
Katherine: And she begrudgingly read it, gave some feedback, and made it clear that she didn't want to read it.
11:28
Katherine: anything else that I wrote.
11:30
Katherine: And I was like, okay, sure.
11:31
Katherine: Great.
11:32
Katherine: So I thought I I'll apply for a TAFE course.
11:35
Katherine: I applied to do a TAFE course and I sent them some of my blog posts.
11:39
Katherine: I didn't send the short story.
11:40
Katherine: The TAFE course rejected me and said, I, I didn't get in, but I could reapply in the future.
11:48
Katherine: This is so difficult to do, to apply for a TAFE course and not get in it.
11:53
Katherine: I, I say this because I was not a person that.
11:57
Katherine: you know, sometimes you're in a room with writers in the early stages, maybe you're doing a course or something and you look around the room and you think that person's going to make it.
12:05
Katherine: And that person's going to make like, they're so, so talented.
12:08
Katherine: I was not that person in a room ever.
12:11
Katherine: Um, so I, I missed out on the TAFE course.
12:13
Katherine: I ended up reapplying and I applying for another TAFE course.
12:18
Katherine: And I got into the RMIT program, which is a very well known program in Melbourne.
12:22
Katherine: RMIT is one of the big universities.
12:26
Katherine: The course is run through the TAFE division, which means that there's lots of workshopping.
12:30
Katherine: It's very hands on as compared to a university one, which has been more theoretical.
12:36
Katherine: So I started there.
12:37
Katherine: I did maybe two subjects, got pregnant, um, had a baby, went back, did a subject, got pregnant, went back.
12:46
Katherine: Um, I didn't, I probably completed three subjects all up.
12:50
Katherine: And, um, so from a course perspective, I didn't get a heap out of it.
12:54
Katherine: Like it was nice, but I didn't get much out of it.
12:56
Katherine: I also hated, I did it at night and I hate night courses.
13:00
Katherine: I, like you, Tina, are a very early riser.
13:03
Katherine: So night, night courses are not suited to me.
13:06
Katherine: But the thing that I did get out of it was my first writer's group.
13:09
Katherine: And that was incredible.
13:11
Katherine: So initially we were four people and we eventually grew to seven.
13:14
Katherine: We would go away multiple times a year.
13:16
Katherine: We would workshop and read each other's work and do all of those kinds of things.
13:21
Katherine: Uh, and that group was critical for me to grow as a writer, but also to feel like being a writer.
13:26
Katherine: That I was, you know, that it was a valid pursuit, I guess.
13:31
Katherine: And it was a thing that people did.
13:33
Katherine: So that was like the, the course that I did that got me something out of it, but not necessarily the, the certificate at the very end, I was very committed to writing.
13:45
Katherine: So I, I was good on discipline and having a writing practice, but.
13:52
Katherine: I had probably come from a background of achievement in many ways, so things had, um, if I worked at something, and this is the way that things will work mostly in the world, not in the arts industry, but if you work at something, you, that, that works, that's an effective approach for people.
14:10
Katherine: progressing or getting better or, you know, getting a better job or getting into whatever that is.
14:15
Katherine: But I think the arts is really different.
14:17
Katherine: And I remember that phase of being an unpublished writer, having a manuscript that was decent.
14:24
Katherine: It probably wasn't ready.
14:25
Katherine: I needed help, but I didn't know the sort of help that I needed.
14:28
Katherine: And I was applying to manuscript development programs and trying to write short stories for competitions.
14:35
Katherine: And there was just nothing, nothing ever happened.
14:39
Katherine: And I think that stage is so hard, and I had little kids at the time, and I didn't have a heap of time to write anyway, and it just felt, I wanted it so bad, and I was doing what I felt were all the right things, and it was, it was so frustrating, and I remember at a point, at a really low point, my husband was like, you gotta decide.
15:01
Katherine: you know, if, if this is a thing you want to do, you've actually got to enjoy the process because we can't ride the highs and lows with you.
15:09
Katherine: This is too, like you're out of your responses is kind of disproportionate.
15:15
Katherine: And I think, I think that was really helpful for me.
15:21
Katherine: And I see that as a real turning point as a writer in that I accepted it might not happen and made the choice of.
15:32
Katherine: act like you, you want it to happen, but it might not.
15:36
Katherine: And so I probably adjusted in terms of my approach to writing.
15:41
Katherine: I relaxed a bit.
15:42
Katherine: I wrote what I wanted to write.
15:44
Katherine: I had much more balance in life.
15:47
Katherine: And as often happens, that was when things started to work better.
15:51
Katherine: And I, I was actually starting, I think I had a short story published in an anthology, which felt like a really big deal.
15:57
Katherine: I got a fellowship at Verona, um, That was the moment that things shifted, and for me that, and it's not about caring less, for me it's there's something in that of being okay regardless, and I think that's put me in good stead.
16:15
Katherine: That lesson has carried through throughout my writing life, that very basic kind of coming back to the love of writing.
16:22
Tina: Yeah, it sounds, and you know, I do hear it a lot in a lot of these stories.
16:29
Tina: The keyword I think is perseverance as well, isn't it?
16:32
Tina: Like even we interviewed Caitlin Lawless.
16:35
Tina: Um, who's a public publicist with New South recently.
16:38
Tina: And that was, she had this incredible story of just knowing people 10 years ago and seeing them as fresh, you know, authors that, you know, haven't published anything, just starting to write and then seeing their books on the shelves, you know, 10 plus years later.
16:50
Tina: And it's just keeping on going, persevering and yeah, it is hard though, like you said, when you're used to working so hard and then you see the payoff, but it doesn't, sometimes it doesn't.
17:02
Tina: Happen.
17:03
Tina: Um, and it's not that you're not getting better at, because you're getting better as a writer, right.
17:08
Tina: The more you're writing.
17:09
Tina: But, and so I guess and that's some kind of payoff, right?
17:13
Tina: But it's not, you know, when you wanna be published.
17:15
Tina: It's, it's not the ultimate, is it?
17:17
Tina: Like that's what you, that's what you're going for and,
17:20
Katherine: and, it's, It's slow, like you feel such impatience for, for all of it, for getting better in and of itself.
17:30
Katherine: Um, but I think perseverance is.
17:35
Katherine: You kind of can't really be a writer without perseverance.
17:38
Katherine: And I think self belief as well.
17:41
Katherine: Um, I say that it was very demoralizing.
17:45
Katherine: And my husband was like, you kind of got to decide.
17:47
Katherine: Even through that secretly, I would not have made it this out loud.
17:51
Katherine: I was like, I can't get published.
17:52
Katherine: There was still something in me.
17:54
Katherine: My frustration was.
17:57
Katherine: that it was taking so long.
17:59
Katherine: And, and even that the craft of writing was taking so long to sort of
18:03
Tina: Mm-Hmm.
18:04
Tina: Mm-Hmm.
18:04
Katherine: that was a source of frustration too.
18:06
Katherine: Cause you can see all these, you know, a lot of the advice or a lot of what you look at in writing is people who win the Booker Prize, or that really top of their game and their writing moves you so deeply.
18:18
Katherine: And you just like, have chills and think, Oh my God, this is amazing.
18:22
Katherine: I want to write like this.
18:23
Katherine: And in some ways that's inspirational, but I also think a very inspirational thing is to look at books that aren't that good in some ways, the kind of book that you read and then think.
18:34
Katherine: Oh, I could do that.
18:35
Katherine: I can, you know, I can maybe even do a bit better than that, which is not to critique that particular book.
18:40
Katherine: It's more, it's more to notice people just a bit ahead of you.
18:44
Katherine: And, and you can get to that bit ahead of you.
18:47
Katherine: And then that next bit ahead and that next bit ahead.
18:50
Tina: Yeah, I do feel like some books, like all books have a role to play.
18:54
Tina: Like you have your Booker Prize winners and you have your books that are made into major motion pictures.
19:01
Tina: And then you have, you know, all the other books which are also still super popular.
19:05
Tina: Important for many people and for many reasons and they can't all be award winners and movies, but they're still important and they're still entertaining and they're still helping kids when it comes to kids, like kids to read and kids to enjoy and to get them away from screens.
19:20
Tina: And, you know, you know, lots of.
19:23
Tina: little books just, you know, that spark some creativity or just a character that they remember that it all has a role to play sort of thing.
19:31
Katherine: does.
19:31
Katherine: And some books are niche.
19:33
Katherine: I often think that in terms of, like, humour and jokes, I think some of the most hilarious jokes I've made ever in life, about three people would get.
19:41
Katherine: Like, I think that's true of books too.
19:44
Katherine: There's, there's, like, a lid for every pot.
19:48
Tina: Yeah.
19:49
Tina: Yeah.
19:50
Tina: So when you, when you found your writers group, was there people in your writers group that was starting to get a few wins around you?
19:59
Tina: Like, could you see that happening around you as well?
20:01
Katherine: Yeah.
20:02
Katherine: Which I think is another very expansive thing in terms of how you think.
20:06
Katherine: Often I think one person in a writer's group gets published and then a few do.
20:10
Katherine: Kate Mildenhall was in my writer's group.
20:13
Katherine: We started the writer's group.
20:14
Katherine: And so she was the first person to get.
20:17
Katherine: Um, she was always kind of a stand down, but you do start to go, okay, you know, it is, it is a thing that people, people do.
20:27
Tina: It's possible.
20:28
Tina: Yeah.
20:28
Tina: When you see someone else doing it right in front of you, you think, okay, it's so close.
20:34
Katherine: Exactly.
20:35
Katherine: And it is like genuinely the, the fact of being around other people that are getting published
20:41
Tina: Infectious, maybe.
20:42
Katherine: I think so.
20:44
Katherine: Um, You were asking about the courses and things that I did.
20:47
Katherine: I, I did do some manuscript assessments with people which were great.
20:52
Katherine: I would get, you know, feedback that was very helpful.
20:55
Katherine: I did those through the Australian Writers Centre or the Victorian Writers Centre.
21:00
Katherine: Um, but the ACT ran a program called Hard Copy.
21:04
Katherine: I don't know that they still run it, but part of that program, you got to meet for half an hour with 10 agents and publishers.
21:10
Katherine: And so, um, That was, you had to apply for that, and I got into that.
21:14
Katherine: Um, what was interesting going into that is that I had pitched all of the agents on the ASA, or the Literary Association website, they had all said no.
21:24
Katherine: But I was meeting with a couple while I was going to be there, and the couple that I met, met with, one was Jacinta de Maze, who offered to represent me.
21:33
Katherine: When I met with her in the meeting and another was also interested.
21:37
Katherine: Um, and the other interesting thing of that experience was Mandy Brett was a publisher that was participating in that program as well.
21:45
Katherine: I ended up being published by text and Mandy was my editor, but I had met Mandy three years before at an ASA literary speed dating.
21:52
Katherine: I had pitched my book to her and.
21:56
Katherine: She hadn't been especially interested in it.
21:59
Tina: Was this the same book, sorry, that you pitched that Jacinta wanted and Mandy, okay.
22:04
Katherine: they had both, I had done pitches, I had done a verbal pitch to Mandy previously, and I had done a written pitch to Jacinta, and neither had been interested.
22:11
Katherine: And that book was not markedly different by the time they ended up picking it up.
22:16
Katherine: Um, yeah, so I, I think the advice is often you get one shot kind of per person per book, but sometimes you get more than one shot.
22:26
Katherine: And also I think that that verbal pitch at, um, at the speed dating sessions, I kind of don't really count that if I was an author kind of shopping a book, I wouldn't exclude that kind
22:37
Tina: Yes.
22:38
Tina: Cause how long was your, so it was speed dating.
22:40
Tina: So was it like three minutes?
22:42
Tina: Yeah.
22:43
Tina: And do you think sometimes like.
22:45
Tina: I mean, I'm sure they are putting all the effort into it, but often there's many other groups going on around you.
22:51
Tina: There's other pitches happening.
22:52
Tina: They're sitting there, they're trying to listen and focus, but you know, they're probably not taking it in as much as when they see it on paper, maybe, and can digest it a little bit better.
23:01
Tina: So they're really just going on you.
23:03
Tina: Three minutes of you trying to get it out.
23:06
Tina: Yes.
23:07
Katherine: you know, sometimes you just have a different energy when you sell it as well.
23:12
Tina: that's amazing.
23:13
Tina: So the other thing that I'm hearing there is the networking and they're using all the, um, like events that we have, cause we, we have a lot, like, you know, the ASA speed dating, there's so many conferences that offer it as well.
23:26
Tina: Uh, and workshops that offer the speed dating or just, um, the assessments.
23:30
Tina: I'm always spruiking the assessments and the pictures that these
23:34
Katherine: They are great.
23:35
Tina: Uh, because like you said, you'd met, it does make a difference.
23:40
Tina: Do you think meeting someone in person as well?
23:42
Tina: And you may, you don't know sometimes where anything's going to go or what relationship is going to form or what context you're going to make, but eventually get three years later, you might end up sending them a pitch and they'll be like, I remember her.
23:58
Tina: And it just gives you that one extra little thing that helps you stand out to them.
24:03
Katherine: And I think it's a reflection of like that time that passes, you have a better pitch, maybe opening is a bit better and all those sorts of things.
24:10
Katherine: The market has changed a little, but I think a lot of that pitching advice that is online is very American based, whereas in the Australian industry, it is a little bit easier to get in front of people through conferences or pitching sessions.
24:25
Katherine: Those kinds of things.
24:27
Tina: Yeah.
24:27
Tina: It's the easiest way, isn't it?
24:28
Tina: Because the slush pile, we'll call it, is, um, yeah, can be quite big.
24:33
Katherine: It sounds easy, this last file, but it really is a last resort.
24:38
Tina: Yeah.
24:39
Tina: So tell me then, so with this book where Jacinta was keen, when did you, so she signed you on that
24:47
Katherine: She, so she was like, Oh, we shook hands in the meeting, which you weren't meant to do.
24:52
Katherine: And, uh, she said, you know, can you, like, are there things that you need to do on it?
24:58
Katherine: And I was like, Oh yeah, I've got to do a little.
24:59
Katherine: Couple of little things and I was reworking it and just probably faffing about.
25:05
Katherine: Um, and she came back to me just one day, a bit out of the blue, maybe it was a month later and she said, I'm going to send it, just give me what you've done.
25:13
Katherine: I'm going to send it.
25:14
Katherine: And so she sent it to, I think nine publishing houses, seven or nine, sent it to seven or nine and after three or four weeks, so maybe she gave them six weeks.
25:25
Katherine: And two weeks before the end, uh, she said, someone from Penguin wants to talk to you.
25:30
Katherine: And at that minute, I was like, we're in the game.
25:33
Katherine: And I remember being at a park and talking to this Penguin editor.
25:37
Katherine: And then I ended up, this felt a bit more common at the time.
25:41
Katherine: I ended up going in to meet at Penguin and speak to the person that would be the editor, which was lovely.
25:48
Katherine: Jacinta came with me to meet Mandy at Text.
25:51
Katherine: So I had a meeting there.
25:53
Katherine: I had, uh, phone conversations with a couple of other publishers and ended up getting four offers.
26:00
Katherine: I think they were all two book offers.
26:03
Katherine: I had said that I was working on a second book.
26:05
Katherine: I probably didn't have much of that second book.
26:06
Katherine: I do always say to people, so you've got a second book, even if it is the most like conceptual half baked idea, go in saying, of course, yeah, I've got, you know, part way through.
26:16
Katherine: So there were all two book deals.
26:19
Katherine: And I went with text because I had wanted text all along and I had wanted Mandy all along because I'd heard Tony, Tony Jordan talking about Mandy Brett and um, how amazing she was and she's absolutely amazing.
26:34
Katherine: And so that's who I wanted all along.
26:36
Katherine: I just was like, I want Mandy, which is why when I did that ASA literary speed dating pitching session with Mandy, I felt really gutted that she had not immediately kind of jumped on the book offer.
26:49
Katherine: It all turned out in the end.
26:51
Tina: So that's incredible.
26:52
Tina: So did you say it's like seven people were interested and you had four offers in the end?
26:57
Katherine: she sent it to seven.
26:58
Tina: Oh, she sent it to seven and you got four, right?
27:01
Tina: That's incredible.
27:02
Tina: And do you think that strike rate is because you had a agent, like, was there any way that you could do that without an agent, send it off like
27:12
Katherine: Yeah.
27:14
Katherine: Uh, no, I don't, I don't think one person that probably could is Graham Simpson.
27:19
Katherine: I remember him talking about, he won the unpublished manuscript competition in Victoria, the Victorian premiers one.
27:25
Katherine: And he did some pretty hard bull negotiating between, um, text and someone, whoever was interested, text ended up buying that book.
27:33
Katherine: I think he's got a lot of potential.
27:35
Katherine: business acumen.
27:36
Katherine: He's got a personality that would just very much enjoy doing that.
27:41
Katherine: I don't think many writers would.
27:43
Katherine: I, I, most writers, self included, would be stepping over their own mother to sign the very first contract that's put in front of them.
27:50
Katherine: Like, the idea of playing people off.
27:53
Katherine: Um, but the cool bit about text was, um, I remember Jacinta saying you would give world rights to text.
28:00
Katherine: You would not give world rights to any other.
28:03
Katherine: publisher.
28:03
Katherine: This was at that moment in time, possibly changed now.
28:07
Katherine: And so text had world rights and they, um, had an agent in lots of places, but in the U S the agent, you know, went through a very similar process of sending it to publishing houses.
28:20
Katherine: And there was a lot of interest there, uh, and in the UK as well.
28:23
Katherine: And it ended up going to auction in the U S, which is the most exciting thing that you could ever really have happened because there's no bad outcomes from an auction.
28:31
Katherine: Um, And that was incredible.
28:34
Katherine: And the, the deal was written up in the paper.
28:37
Katherine: Like it was such a massive, not a massive amount of, like it was a decent amount of money, but it was, for me as a writer, um, it was in the paper.
28:45
Katherine: And I remember my publisher saying, don't show you how much they paid.
28:48
Katherine: Like just do it anyway.
28:51
Katherine: Um, it was amazing, but which is a great author story, you know, wow.
28:55
Katherine: Amazing.
28:56
Katherine: The kind of postscript to that story though, is that, um, it was a particular imprint that purchased the book.
29:04
Katherine: They about three months later had a complete restructure and that imprint vanished, and so the book that had been bought by the head of an imprint, it was like written in her bio on their website that they had acquired this book.
29:17
Katherine: Um, she left.
29:19
Katherine: And so they re juggled and the book landed with the most junior person.
29:25
Katherine: really in the company.
29:26
Katherine: She, if she read the book, she did not like it.
29:28
Katherine: Uh, and I was going, I had gotten a travel grant to go to the States to do research for my second book.
29:34
Katherine: And I was like, we meet up.
29:36
Katherine: And she was first, she said no.
29:39
Katherine: And then I, I persisted enough that she was like, okay, we'll meet.
29:44
Katherine: I think it was a long weekend or something for them.
29:45
Katherine: So we ended up making, and she, she was like, I'm not blaming her in any of this.
29:52
Katherine: Nor am I saying the book would have done amazingly if this hadn't happened.
29:54
Katherine: There are lots and lots of stories that writers have of U turns and then what felt like it was going one way goes another direction.
30:01
Katherine: Anyway, I met her in, um, I, I met her in the, in New York and I remember her meeting me at the downstairs of the building, taking me up to a windowless office and, um, she, I had met the agent that had sold the book the day before and he had, this is the thing I think they often do, is he had put copies of my book as you walk in.
30:23
Katherine: So it looked like it was just sitting all along.
30:25
Katherine: It's your book.
30:26
Katherine: It's been sitting
30:27
Tina: is what we're doing.
30:27
Katherine: So he had sort of pulled out the stops in that, in that way.
30:31
Katherine: I met this guy, no, not a copy of my book anywhere.
30:34
Katherine: And so we sat down and I was probably there for 20 minutes, having flown from Australia.
30:38
Katherine: I mean, I didn't go there for that reason.
30:40
Katherine: And, um, she, we didn't really talk about the book.
30:44
Katherine: We just spoke a bit about her weekend and she left long, like she was so disinterested that, you know, there were just these long pauses in the conversation where, It was just like, oh my God.
30:56
Katherine: So I tell the story of the highs, but the truth is, you know, and it was crushing, absolutely crushing at the time.
31:02
Katherine: A lot of people don't tell
31:04
Tina: And what a rollercoaster.
31:06
Tina: What a rollercoaster.
31:07
Tina: Like, yeah, auction.
31:09
Tina: And you know, this is incredible.
31:11
Tina: And then like, you cannot predict that
31:14
Katherine: but interestingly, when I started working with writers at the start of the year, I was originally, now I'm working with unpublished and debut authors.
31:21
Katherine: Um, but I did a lot of market research, um, with both groups, but initially with debut authors.
31:27
Katherine: And I also spoke to, I probably interviewed 30 people for an hour and just on this debut experience.
31:33
Katherine: And some of them had just had books that had come out and, um, um, a number of them, most of them, or a very common story within that, was this book was going to be a big book, like the publisher was really putting a lot behind it and XYZ was happening, but then COVID happened, or then this Jewish kind of, you know, um, what's the, the date with the Gaza and I mean, I'm not wading into that whatsoever, but, um, Um, these real kind of left field things happened that
32:05
Tina: Could not be
32:05
Katherine: couldn't be predicted.
32:06
Katherine: And whether you say, Oh, it didn't happen because of that, or it was never going to happen, but you know, I think it's a really, the, the highs and lows and changing links of fortunes, um, means that you kind of do have to get to a point of enjoying the highs, but.
32:24
Katherine: Being resilient and, and being resistant to the lows as well.
32:28
Tina: Yes.
32:29
Tina: Yeah, that's very good.
32:29
Tina: And I want to, I wanted to ask you about a bit more about that actually, because I'm part of a Debu crew.
32:35
Tina: I'm lucky I get to be part of two because my, my pub date got pushed to 25.
32:39
Tina: So I was in 24 and now I'm part of 25 and 24 were very kind to keep me.
32:45
Tina: So, and I did ask, uh, the crew, um, some of the crew, if they had some questions that they, um, wanted me to ask you because, um, yeah, you know, we've always got lots of questions about this and you always get a lot of advice.
32:58
Tina: So one of them was about how to prepare yourself, um, for when your book does come out, um, and about, uh, all the disappointment and the reality maybe of publication, which isn't always disappointment.
33:14
Katherine: no.
33:14
Tina: there's so much amazing stuff about it, but, and I guess maybe where does that disappointment come from?
33:21
Katherine: Yeah.
33:22
Katherine: Um, this makes me think of, I remember this episode that Kate and I did of the first time podcast and it was when.
33:30
Katherine: I'm pretty sure it was when that international rights stuff was happening.
33:34
Katherine: And we talked about that in the, we used to record in a studio and we talked about that in the studio.
33:40
Katherine: And then at the end of our discussion, I remember turning to Kate and said, should I have sounded happier?
33:45
Katherine: And she was like, Oh, whatever, just sound how you sound.
33:48
Katherine: And when our, um, editing person was doing the edits, I said to her, leave that in, leave me asking that in.
33:55
Katherine: And it was, so it, If you listen to the podcast, I haven't listened to it in years, but if you listen to it, it reads like we've got the cut wrong in terms of where we cut out the audio, but it's not, it's intentional.
34:08
Katherine: And I think for me, and particularly in that stage of the podcast, that was about this debut experience, the.
34:20
Katherine: This should have been like a, just a universally happy moment.
34:23
Katherine: And it really was a happy moment, but it felt super weird as well.
34:29
Katherine: And I think that that mix of emotions and disappointment will be one of them.
34:37
Katherine: I would say, um, catches people by surprise and no one talks about it.
34:42
Katherine: And I think particularly when we were doing the first time podcast.
34:47
Katherine: There wasn't really any information on the Debu experience.
34:50
Katherine: And so we were asking other people all of these questions and they would have lots of answers.
34:54
Katherine: But once we turned off the kind of the recording thing, they would be so candid and it was so generous of them.
35:01
Katherine: And as a Debu author, it felt sometimes, and I think this is partly the structure of the industry in that, you are a single writer in a big publishing house and someone else is a single writer in a big publishing house, um, that you have nothing to compare your own experience to.
35:19
Katherine: And it can feel very, you feel so grateful all the time to be being part of it.
35:26
Katherine: Published there's no recognition of other kinds of emotions like disappointment.
35:33
Katherine: And I, I think talking to those emotions is really important because I do think everyone will feel them.
35:40
Katherine: And I loved when people spoke about them to me.
35:42
Katherine: I still remember a comment that Ella Baxter said.
35:46
Katherine: made on a, like an Instagram post where she talked about the shame that she felt when her book came out.
35:52
Katherine: And I loved that so much.
35:54
Katherine: I could, I could understand that comment of shame, um, and vulnerability.
36:00
Katherine: And, um, it's interesting.
36:04
Katherine: I, I send a newsletter out a couple of times a week and I'll often talk about disappointment and, you know, Often a lot of people who are multiple time authors will respond to me and say, I'm so glad you're telling them this, which is such an interesting comment.
36:20
Katherine: Um, because you don't know, and the fact that people will mention it, I think is helpful.
36:30
Katherine: Yeah.
36:31
Tina: do you think it's important just, do you think it's mostly, it's important to just recognize that, that there can be disappointment or, just that.
36:42
Tina: maybe not setting your expectations really low, but is it just being realistic, maybe just understanding what the reality is.
36:51
Tina: So anything that does and just happen is a positive.
36:56
Tina: And you can enjoy that experience because you do know that, you know, it's, it's natural for it to not be doing all the best sellings, as many as you think in the markets I've heard is not.
37:10
Tina: Great.
37:11
Tina: Yeah.
37:11
Tina: At the moment.
37:12
Tina: And it's never been, you know, super amazing, but it's, you know, I've heard it's really tough now.
37:17
Tina: It's a really tough sell.
37:19
Tina: Um, yeah.
37:20
Tina: So maybe it's just that reality of it um, in turn has that effect of you just being able to enjoy it more.
37:27
Tina: Does that make sense?
37:30
Katherine: it does.
37:31
Katherine: I think that a way I think about it is to see that your career is one that will build over time.
37:41
Katherine: And I hate the idea of having low expectations, but I think there is something in, uh, Seeing it as a long term game, that this is one book of many that you put into the world.
37:55
Katherine: And so while the expectation for career is big, the expectation for single book is just to keep progressing.
38:06
Katherine: To write better books and, and, you know, focus on the things that you can control.
38:11
Katherine: Sales is not a thing that you have any control over.
38:15
Katherine: Um, But the measure of success that sales is, sales is a single measure of success and it's one that you have no control over.
38:27
Katherine: I think it's a really crude measure of success and there needs to be much, um, a much more nuanced, I suppose, way of thinking about, um, how a book fares in the world.
38:40
Katherine: I think the emphasis on sales, I see most.
38:43
Katherine: in the debut author moment.
38:45
Katherine: It feels very pass or fail for debut authors.
38:49
Katherine: I I think that really fades.
38:52
Katherine: And I think as you get an author further down the line, of course, everyone wants every single book they write to be a bestseller And universally adored and all of those things.
39:02
Katherine: Down the line, people don't talk about sales so much.
39:05
Katherine: Whereas the debut experience people think if this does not sell well, my career is over.
39:11
Tina: And that's, I guess I've probably taken that snapshot in time as well of right now, like maybe.
39:16
Tina: That first year or of sales pay possibly or even shorter than that.
39:20
Tina: And it.
39:21
Tina: Yeah.
39:22
Tina: Maybe disappointed at that point.
39:24
Tina: But it's, as you said, get further down the line that first year doesn't mean anything.
39:28
Tina: And it's not about that.
39:30
Tina: It's yeah.
39:31
Tina: It's about so much more.
39:32
Tina: Yeah.
39:32
Tina: That's a really good point.
39:33
Tina: But just access is about more than that.
39:36
Katherine: And I think some of the best things about writing is community, really.
39:44
Katherine: And I think the building of community over time is a great measure of how far you've come as well.
39:52
Tina: absolutely.
39:53
Tina: And it I think it's just taking it all back to that very first point even that you mentioned of just sitting back and going Why am I doing this?
40:00
Tina: It's because of the love of it and the joy of it.
40:03
Tina: And, you know, back then at the beginning, you're trying to get published and now it's just, and so you're taking it right back to the love of writing.
40:11
Tina: getting rid of those expectations.
40:12
Tina: Mm.
40:12
Tina: Mm
40:14
Katherine: that you sort of see sales as a proxy for, um, I want to sell a lot of books so I can write more books.
40:24
Katherine: Um, and that's the avenue to do that.
40:26
Katherine: But actually you have far more control over expanding the space that writing and creativity takes up in your life.
40:32
Katherine: And I think that's probably the underlying goal and, and the thing to work towards.
40:40
Katherine: Or that's what I think the thing to work towards is.
40:43
Tina: you find, uh, talking about expectations, that's a common theme that you're getting from debut authors?
40:49
Tina: Like what just their feelings afterwards, which is like you said, a mix of everything, isn't it?
40:56
Katherine: it comes up.
40:59
Katherine: Um, I think, yes, it definitely comes up.
41:04
Katherine: People avoid talking about it in some ways.
41:08
Katherine: I do think there's this element of shame in terms of, and sometimes people will get, um, A publisher might say, or an agent might say, it hasn't gone as well as what we'd hoped.
41:20
Katherine: I think that can really blindside people.
41:22
Katherine: And because you are an individual working with a publishing house, you're not a member of a team, that feels like it's your fault.
41:32
Katherine: And I think I'd argue that actually a book is a team.
41:36
Katherine: deal and you know, it's marketing and it's publicity and it's all of you know, there are other people on the team, but I don't think when it, if it comes to disappointing sales, it's easy for an author to think, yeah, I, I, I'm at fault.
41:50
Katherine: I
41:52
Tina: Yeah.
41:52
Tina: And look, we spend so much time writing these books and possibly lifetimes getting to that point of writing that book.
41:59
Tina: So of course it's only natural to be so invested in it and, you know, just, yeah, just be so close to it that you just want it to do so well.
42:09
Tina: So it's just, it's, it's a natural feeling really, isn't it?
42:13
Katherine: think that my thinking of that probably has changed at the, at, at the Demu moment.
42:18
Katherine: I did feel like that.
42:20
Katherine: Now, I think I just put it into the world and, and, and a thing that has helped me put stuff into the world was a podcast where I would put stuff into the world every week.
42:34
Katherine: You know, I think we put 300 episodes into the world and a book can only do so much.
42:40
Katherine: And often I think people forget.
42:42
Katherine: Think about, you know, if, if you want to build a profile as a writer, um, it's pretty hard to do that if all you do is release a book every one or two years or one book every four years.
42:54
Katherine: Um, and I think that act of creating and making other things that you put into the world and see how they're received and they go well or they don't go well, exercises that muscle of, Caring less feels like the wrong way of putting it, but, you know, it just, yeah, it just, it's, if you've, only got two things in the world and they're both books, then how they fare means a lot.
43:19
Katherine: But if you have other things that are in the world, even if they're smaller things, it doesn't feel so significant, perhaps.
43:26
Tina: Yeah.
43:27
Tina: Well, You know, for yourself, it's very, I think it's very, you know, a very correct statement of that, you know, just putting things out into the world.
43:35
Tina: And it can be your indicator of success, especially now that you've, um, you're branching out into your book coaching, which is amazing because everything that you've done is just sort of builds up to this incredible opportunity that you're, that you're participating in and now offering everyone, all these other debut authors and sharing that knowledge, which is incredible because like you said, it really, um, you know, there hasn't really been much of that to assist authors before.
44:01
Tina: And there's so many questions, you know, um, for emerging authors, aspiring, uh, published authors and debut authors.
44:09
Tina: But can you explain a little bit about book coaching for people that don't really know what that
44:14
Katherine: sure.
44:15
Katherine: So when I work with debut authors and I work with unpublished writers with debut authors, we basically just meet once a month for six months and, uh, we focus on, it kind of varies.
44:28
Katherine: Some people, Want to focus on building a profile or podcasting, those kinds of things.
44:35
Katherine: Um, some people just want a person in their corner, actually.
44:39
Katherine: That's probably a pretty common thing.
44:42
Katherine: A safe ish space to talk about some things.
44:47
Katherine: Um, what else do we work on?
44:50
Katherine: Everything I've ever.
44:51
Katherine: Done, it's now gone out of my head.
44:53
Katherine: It's like being asked what book, um, you've read recently.
44:56
Katherine: So I think if in terms of the framing, it's about what to do and what to expect and how to think when your book comes out.
45:04
Katherine: Um, because it's a really unique moment, I think, as you move from unpublished writer to published writer, a lot of people, no one even knows that they write, they've written in secret all of this time.
45:15
Katherine: And it's sort of a real shift in.
45:19
Katherine: They haven't had their work in.
45:20
Katherine: the world, and now suddenly they do.
45:22
Katherine: And I think that's a moment that's full of very weird feelings.
45:28
Katherine: In the unpublished space, working one to one, it's often more about a particular book.
45:33
Katherine: Sometimes people will come with a draft most of the way through, and it's about polishing it and getting it ready, and then starting to pitch for agents and for publishers as well.
45:42
Katherine: So putting together query letters and sort of, Synopsises and potentially video pictures, which is a thing that my agent got me to do for The kid's book, actually, when they pitched it to publishers.
45:55
Katherine: I made a little video talking about myself and the book.
46:01
Tina: no, that's handy to just somebody who you can ask all the questions to.
46:06
Katherine: I think so.
46:07
Katherine: I had people help me along the way.
46:10
Katherine: I cannot under state how helpful the podcast was in terms of building relationships, but having people fill in a lot of those gaps.
46:19
Katherine: And so I think some of it is about.
46:21
Katherine: doing that for other people.
46:23
Tina: So do you have a number one top tip for aspiring authors?
46:27
Tina: and a top tip for debut authors?
46:29
Katherine: A top tip for aspiring authors, I think that the two, or the one mistake that lots of people make, everyone makes, I think most writers have made, made, is that they send their work too early.
46:44
Katherine: They think it's ready, it's not ready, so don't blow your shot.
46:48
Katherine: sending to your number one people straight off the bat, test the orders a bit first.
46:53
Katherine: Um, and the other thing is seeing rejection as a sign that you should stop.
46:59
Katherine: I think in that unpublished space, You're looking for validation to keep going.
47:05
Katherine: It's the hardest moment in many ways because you have no proof that you can do it.
47:09
Katherine: It's a real leap of faith.
47:11
Katherine: Um, but rejection.
47:14
Katherine: is part of the process.
47:15
Katherine: Every single writer that has gotten their work published experiences often a lot of rejection.
47:20
Katherine: For debut authors,
47:23
Tina: Silence.
47:29
Tina: Silence.
47:37
Katherine: I think acknowledging that there'll be highs and lows.
47:40
Katherine: inevitably, and that you don't just have to feel singularly grateful.
47:47
Katherine: You can be like grateful for sure, but I think that emphasis on gratefulness can sometimes negate other emotions or the validity of feeling other emotions.
47:59
Katherine: Um, you know, we've talked about disappointment and the kind of the harder sides of being a writer.
48:04
Katherine: The most wonderful things about writing are other writers and readers and even editors, if you feel like your work is really seen by someone and someone understands how you feel about a thing or what you're trying to do, I think those are the moments to kind of grab with both hands.
48:20
Tina: now I'm going to be selfish and ask a question about me.
48:24
Katherine: do.
48:25
Tina: Um, so I'm, I'm like eight or nine weeks from release now, which is really exciting.
48:31
Tina: Um, what have you got for me?
48:34
Tina: What do I need?
48:35
Tina: What do I need to know?
48:36
Tina: What's your top advice for me?
48:39
Katherine: um, I didn't do this with kids books because it's a slightly different space, is I do.
48:46
Katherine: think the media is a good space to, sell books is a simple way of putting it, but writing an article or two about themes if in your book or some element of your story that then segues into a bio or something that says I've written a book on this topic is a good thing to do.
49:04
Katherine: That's a thing that I always recommend.
49:07
Katherine: I don't recommend people focus purely on social media and see social media as a way of selling books.
49:13
Katherine: I think see social media as a way of building community.
49:16
Katherine: So I would be looking at Building a community on social media and, um, maybe writing some articles that relate to the themes of your book that's harder in the kids space because you have this challenge with audience in that parents or adults read papers, you know, but your audience is kids for, um, by Alma book that has illustrations as well.
49:38
Katherine: I said to my publicist, could you try and pitch some cartoons and try and get them in, um, places?
49:44
Katherine: And she said, probably not because they'll want to pay you and we only do unpaid stuff.
49:48
Katherine: But she said, if you make some of those cartoons into coloring ins, we can get them places.
49:54
Katherine: And so I made them into coloring ins and they got into a few newspapers that way.
49:58
Tina: Yeah.
49:59
Tina: That's cool.
49:59
Tina: Thinking outside the
50:00
Katherine: can't, I think so.
50:02
Katherine: A liberating thing is in the quantities that you want to sell books, the tens of thousands of books, there's not much you can do.
50:09
Tina: yeah.
50:10
Katherine: Nothing is going to make a massive difference is the truth.
50:13
Katherine: Um, it's word of mouth.
50:15
Katherine: I think that really sells books.
50:16
Katherine: That's my opinion.
50:17
Katherine: So, um, but that's exciting to me in that you can pick and choose what you like to do.
50:24
Tina: Yeah.
50:24
Tina: That's really good advice, because I am, I'm yeah.
50:27
Tina: I feel like.
50:29
Tina: I'm getting a little, a little bit overwhelmed with there's so many things to do and you see other people doing things and I'm like, am I running out of time?
50:36
Tina: And it just feels like you could do a thousand and one things.
50:39
Tina: But, um, I like seeing it as that, that really it's word of mouth and it's probably time too.
50:45
Tina: Is it like, you know, a little bit of time.
50:48
Tina: Like your book has to actually be out in the world for a while.
50:51
Tina: People have to read it.
50:52
Tina: Kids have to enjoy it and then recommend it to their friends.
50:55
Tina: And, and that's just time, isn't it?
50:58
Tina: There's nothing you can do.
51:00
Katherine: I also think that given things may have a limited impact anyway, do stuff you like doing.
51:08
Katherine: Like if you're an events person, do events.
51:10
Katherine: Yes.
51:10
Katherine: If.
51:11
Katherine: If you're a podcast person, I actually think a podcast is the best thing that you can do.
51:15
Katherine: That's the way that I and Kate built profiles initially.
51:19
Katherine: And I think it's such a, a great way of building a relationship, but also evergreen content that lives on after a real life event and those kinds of things.
51:28
Katherine: I think podcasts is a space that's got space in it.
51:32
Katherine: It's undercooked.
51:33
Katherine: There's room
51:34
Tina: Yeah.
51:34
Tina: And it's fun.
51:36
Tina: I just feel, I forget that people are listening.
51:38
Tina: I just find it really fun to talk.
51:41
Tina: Um, yeah.
51:42
Tina: And, and just ask all the questions, but, Um, yeah, just chatting and with Madeline as well, working with Madeline.
51:49
Tina: Yeah.
51:49
Tina: It's just been lots of fun and that, so you're right.
51:52
Tina: If it's something that you enjoy doing, just enjoy it.
51:54
Tina: And, um, yeah.
51:56
Tina: Yeah, see where it takes you.
51:58
Tina: Okay, so I'm just gonna, yeah, I'm just gonna buckle in and enjoy the ride.
52:03
Katherine: It's a fun ride.
52:04
Katherine: It's like the greatest thing that I've ever done.
52:07
Tina: yeah.
52:08
Katherine: I should say my children as well.
52:09
Katherine: My husband, getting married.
52:11
Tina: that.
52:11
Tina: Yeah, right.
52:12
Katherine: France, you know.
52:13
Katherine: It is.
52:14
Katherine: It's great.
52:15
Katherine: It's really great.
52:17
Tina: Well, thank you so much for all your extremely valuable, um, advice and tips today.
52:23
Tina: I'm sure all the listeners are going to love it.
52:27
Katherine: Pleasure.
52:28
Katherine: Thank you for having me.