Latest / History Harpies: Pop Culture, Past and Present / Yes, “Forever” Has Been Around Forever, Pt. 2 (Ft. American Pie, Fast Times, and Beverly Hills 90210)

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Yes, “Forever” Has Been Around Forever, Pt. 2 (Ft. American Pie, Fast Times, and Beverly Hills 90210) · History Harpies: Pop Culture, Past and Present

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They say we're loud, opinionated, afraid Telling
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us to hush, dim our historical light But darlings,
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we're the Harpies, sharp and keen Unveiling the
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truth behind the silver screen History Harpies
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hear us roar Hi, and welcome to History Harpies.
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I'm Lauren. And I'm Christine. And this is episode
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six, which is actually part two of episode five,
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in a sense. We are very, very excited to be back
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after somewhat of a hiatus. It took us a little
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while to reconvene, even though we had two -parter.
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Both of us took some trips and have been regrouping,
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but we have lots more to say about the... texts
1:01
that we started a conversation about last week.
1:05
This week, however, we will be focusing on characters
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losing their virginity and the arcs of virginity
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loss that go through our two forever texts. the
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movie American Pie and our Fast Times at Richmond
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High analysis. So we are going to be then revisiting
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some of the things we talked about last time
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and introducing some new things and trying to
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figure out why virginity seems to be such an
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important component of at least the high school
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experience in American media. But before we do
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that, Lauren, let's actually talk. about our
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weeks, our times since, as you say, we haven't
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been together for a while. And we're actually
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going to talk and start with some harps and loves
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this time around. So my love, which is incorporated
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into my hiatus, is the city of Boston, which
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I was... visiting this past week, not only the
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city of Boston, but the beautiful town of Situate,
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which is a coastal town about 50 miles outside
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of Boston. And I just have to tell you that I
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felt all the love in Boston from people I knew,
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people I didn't know, archivists, my college
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roommate who I got the pleasure to spend a lot
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of time with, the shops, the food. The weather's
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a little wonky, but anything better than the
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heat, which we are now dealing with here. And
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I just give tons of love to Boston. I miss my
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time there. And it reminded me of all the good
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things of being. Again the same age as many of
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these characters that we're talking about today,
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but also such a such a lovely manageable city
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and Such a good vibe and I also a shout out to
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Boston public transportation Is the only place
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I know where you can get to the airport for free
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Which is very important, which is very important
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So again, many, many thanks to my roommate, former
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roommate, Roommate Forever, who hosted me. And
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then also all the great archivists who really
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helped me through at Boston University and working
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on this new book. So it was it was all the good,
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happy things. And I probably had a record that
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I did not buy anything when I was in Boston.
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How is that possible? I didn't. I didn't buy
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any clothes. The only thing I bought. I'm not
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going to include like an extra phone charger
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or candy or something like that. But I did not
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buy any clothes. And that took a tremendous amount
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of willpower. But I also had a tiny suitcase.
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And I was very aware that I just had a limited
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amount of space and was going to enter into the
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no buy as they do on TikTok. No buy campaign.
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So I'm on it. I'm on it. Well, I'm glad you had
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a fantastic time and props to New England. Did
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you go to a Boston Red Sox game? Did not. Oh,
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sad. Sad. It is sad. It is sad. And I would have
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the weather was kind of rainy. So no, no Red
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Sox. But as you know, I'm a Phillies fan anyway.
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And I will go to a Phillies game when I am in
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in Philly, which will be soon. So I'm OK. And
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maybe they'll play the Red Sox. And maybe they
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will play the Red Sox. I love for this week and
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I didn't spend a lot of time doing this. As you
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know, I was traveling with my kids, which was
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fantastic, although very rainy. But I reintroduced
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myself this week to Clinton Kelly and Stacey
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London from What Not to Wear. Not personally,
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but they have a new show. You didn't have them
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over? No, I did not have them over for drinks
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or to discuss my wardrobe, which I should have.
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But they have a new show on Amazon called Wear
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Whatever the F You Want. And so it's a makeover
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show with a really interesting twist. The twist
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being that they are not trying to mold the client
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into a particular model or particular clothes,
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but the client says, this is what I want to look
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like. And they help the client achieve that.
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And they've had a really interesting diversity
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of clients on the show so far. And wonderful,
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wonderful clothes and shoes and accessories to
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look at, a lot of clothes porn. So I'm really
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enjoying that. And it's great just to see Clinton
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and Stacey together because I always loved them
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as hosts. So was there a particular outfit that
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inspired you? Oh, that's a great question. One
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of the clients wanted to look more like a visionary
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artist and she had a great outfit that was mixing
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of patterns, which is something I never do in
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my own clothes because I feel like that's very
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intimidating to know how to mix patterns well.
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But she had a great combination of jacket and
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shirt and pants, all of which were different
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patterns. And she looked incredible. It was just
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really terrific. And so something else that's
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great about the show, shout out again to Clinton
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and Stacey, is they have little tips, little
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helpful tips for one's own wardrobe. And it made
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me want to buy clothes. Basically, you did not
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buy clothes in Boston. It made me want to buy
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clothes, which is always a great thing. It is
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a great thing. Wanting to buy clothes and buying
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clothes is always a great thing. But mixing patterns
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well is a tough feat and something I cannot pull
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off. And I'm going to I'm going to watch. I know
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you've recommended. So this actually segues into
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another show that we both watched one episode
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of, which moves into our virginity theme, which
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is virgins, which I couldn't help but thinking
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that there should be a fashion makeover component
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that should have gone with the virgin episode.
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I completely agree. Because if the Queer Eyes
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or Clint and Stacey or those... those universe
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makeover people were to come and help the virgins
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out. I feel like it wasn't just a sexual and
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psychological problem. There was also a fashion
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component that needed to be addressed. So what
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would be ideal in the case of this show Virgins
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is if they brought over makeover people and a
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sex worker. Correct. That would be part of the
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glam squad. Which is what my husband said. And
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he is correct. so this is a new show a very new
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show that is being streamed on max but i think
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it's also on tlc which of course tlc sometimes
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really scrapes the bottom of reality shows but
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this show focuses on four people um all of whom
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i think are in their 30s oh one is early 40s
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yes one is early one is in her is 42 years old
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who has been divorced divorced so a divorced
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virgin so they're all virgins and as you would
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imagine the show is going down a path of trying
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I think to help them to lose their virginity
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and the obvious solution again being sex worker
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as Dan Savage would recommend so we'll see if
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there are any sex workers in the show's future
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but of course as comes out in the show what is
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so strange about this is their age because we
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do tend to have a sense that one's virginity
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loss maybe is kind of like a high school college
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thing. Is that fair to say, Lauren? I think it
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depends on the individual. But yes, I think the
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normative range, I mean, definitely by 30 is
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something and again, different for everyone,
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different traditions, life stages, choices, sexualities,
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preferences, change, all of that. But 42 years
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old and divorced and divorced is an interesting
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spot to be in it is and of course, we won't spend
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any time talking about it now, but everyone remembers
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the 40 year old Virgin and that this was very
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much understood, right, presented comedically
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as something that had kind of never happened
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to Steve Carell's character. And so in terms
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of media and culture, right, we absolutely think
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of this as a young person's thing, the loss of
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virginity. And so maybe, actually, let's start
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talking about forever. Let's go back to both
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of our Forever. So if anyone remembers, the last
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time Lauren and I spoke, we discussed Judy Blume's
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original novel, Forever, about Michael and Catherine
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falling in love in their senior year in high
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school, and the more recent television show,
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also called Forever, about Keisha and Justin
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falling in love their senior year in high school.
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And we discussed some of the similarities and
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differences of those two things. Let's talk,
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Lauren, about virginity in both of our forevers.
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OK. OK. Well, the biggest difference to me, even
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though both couples have sex and someone in the
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couple is a virgin in these pairs, the biggest
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difference is that with Michael and Catherine,
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there is this, as we said in the last episode,
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compressed timeline of just about four months.
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Catherine is telling her story and we are joining
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her in sexual discovery where she is getting
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ready to have sex for the first time. We know
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that is coming. We know she's met the person
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she plans to have sex with and we see incrementally
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how they physically connect, how they emotionally
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connect. and that when the sex does happen it's
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something that is very very meaningful to them
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but then we see them kind of settling into a
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sexual relationship and sexuality is at the center
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of the book in a way that the the new series
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it it definitely portrays sexuality between the
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characters, but it is not the central storyline
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of their relationship. It's something that does
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happen and then it happens, you know, throughout
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the course of the relationship, but because the
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timeline of the relationship is so much longer,
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the focus isn't on virginity loss. Yes, and so
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we don't see, as you say, the development really
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of sort of sexual rapport between Keisha and
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Justin in the same way that we do with Michael
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and Catherine, right? It's very much dwelt upon
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that Michael and Catherine end up having a very
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mature sexual relationship. right, in the sense
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that she gets to the point where she's orgasmic
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fairly quickly, that it is this very profound
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component of their relationship. And we also
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have a sense on the other side, I don't know
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if you would agree with me on this, that it's
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not that Michael is pressuring Katherine to have
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sex. But because he himself is not a virgin,
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there absolutely is this notion that he would
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like it to happen as quickly as possible. Whereas
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with Justin and Keisha, they are both virgins.
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But in a sense, Justin, maybe ironically, Justin
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is not depicted as being super, super eager to
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kind of get through it. The series is about so
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many other things, college, college admissions,
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the sex tape with Keisha. The parents. So many
13:05
other storylines that the sex between the two,
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when it happens, it's a nice moment, but it certainly
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isn't something that the show is sort of grounded
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upon, that grows, that they explore. We assume
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after that, that their sex life is an active
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one, but the book really takes the reader at
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a granular level through different levels of
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discovery, different levels of openness, and
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also, as you say, Michael's eagerness to have
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sex with Catherine and her different... what
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she's comfortable with at different times and
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how she ultimately comes to the decision. The
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other thing that the book captures is these young
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lovers trying to find places to have sex. That
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certainly by the second half of the book, these
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two people are just fucking wherever. Mainly
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in Michael's sister's apartment. They go on a
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ski trip, other things. But there isn't anything
14:14
else going on. They're not talking about going
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to concerts. They're not talking about going
14:19
to the mall. They're certainly not talking about
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their college essays in ways that Keisha and
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Justin are. And of course, because the parents
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are playing a much lesser role in the Forever
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Book, we don't know the whole story of the father
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and the chef and the brother and the uncle. and
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all the people that we come into contact with
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in the series. Okay, but is it fair to say that
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thinking about what you just said and thinking
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about these differences, is it fair to say that
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the book Forever and the show, they really do
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summarize in a shockingly accurate way ideas
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of teenage sexuality at their respective times.
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So forever, right, we have, and we talked about
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this a little bit last time, we have Katherine
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being super responsible about birth control,
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right? She goes to Planned Parenthood. As you
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say, there's this incremental development of
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their sexual relationship. In effect, they go
15:17
from first base to home plate, to use that kind
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of language. And as we just said, right, into
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the - Or is it a grand slam? A grand slam. And
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so there's this sense of sexual maturity. And,
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but then, But it is really compartmentalized,
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right? It's compartmentalized. It's their relationship.
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It is shown as being very emotionally deep. But
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then with Justin and Keisha, it summarizes, I
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think, this moment so well in that it is so ironic
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and kind of back -ass words, right? In that we
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have a virgin with a sex tape. Right. So much
15:51
of the attention in the show is on this sex tape.
15:53
So much. But she's a virgin. So Justin thinks
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that she is more sexually experienced than she
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is. in some ways not surprisingly because she
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has a sex tape that has been circulated although
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not of course of her having intercourse but of
16:06
her performing oral sex on a boy and she also
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attempts to perform oral sex on Justin on their
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first date on their first date in public in public
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in a movie theater in a movie theater so it's
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not a crazy idea it's not a crazy idea in his
16:22
mind that this that Keisha isn't a virgin and
16:25
is quite experienced. Yes, but this is the the
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crazy irony, right, which I do think sort of
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sums up how we talk about sort of high school
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sexuality now. The idea that sort of you have
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a kind of world of porn and the sex tape that
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at the same time is coexisting with this bizarre
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kind of, I don't want to say bizarre, but this
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Chastity yes, right and that these two things
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kind of don't so Michael and Katherine, right?
16:53
We would never have kind of porn on the table,
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right? It's its own other thing, right? It exists
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in this kind of skeevy world someplace else that
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we don't know about but they do have a very mature
17:03
sexual relationship whereas Justin and Keisha
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we have the porn at the sex tapes their kind
17:09
of fumblings towards sex and then also the Incredible
17:13
involvement of the parents right and as you said
17:16
earlier Michael and Catherine's parents just
17:19
really non entities right there sneaking around
17:22
to try to find a good place to have sex but then
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of course we have the weirdness in the show which
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we talked about last time that justin's parents.
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Basically are going to tell keisha's mother about
17:33
the sex tape and so you have again this unbelievable
17:37
irony. Right. Again, of this kind of immersion
17:40
in sexuality. At the same time, you have all
17:43
of this chastity in sort of Gen Z or whatever,
17:47
if that makes any sense. There is this omission
17:49
in Forever, the losing of virginity is a very
17:54
big deal that Catherine talks about internally,
17:58
that she wrestles with, and it's something that
18:00
we can internalize in a concrete way. And in
18:05
the series, it's Justin's dad just throws a condom
18:09
at him and we don't, although we definitely get
18:13
Keisha having conversations with her mother about
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not getting pregnant, there aren't any conversations
18:19
about the loss of virginity. And there aren't
18:22
any conversations between the two of them other
18:25
than. Oh, neither one of us has done it before
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and we're kind of nervous. And that's really
18:32
the only real conversation the two of them have
18:35
until they do have sex. When they do have sex,
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they they do. There isn't a conversation before.
18:42
It's just it's going to happen. And he's. She's
18:47
been waiting to see him and she goes to Martha's
18:49
Vineyard. Tracks him down. Tracks him down and
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he's been listening to these voicemails and there's
18:54
a heightened sense of anticipation. But on the
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other hand, the actual loss of virginity is not
19:02
something that is explored in detail between
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the two of them. What it will mean to them, what
19:08
it will mean to their relationship. Then what
19:12
things will look like in in months to come because
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they go from having sex and having pretty good
19:18
sex As far as we can tell it's it's not awkward
19:23
It's not it's it's something that is seen as
19:25
mutually fulfilling and then they're having sex
19:28
in the car They're having sex in the pool and
19:30
so they're in a sexual relationship which presumably
19:33
lasts for another ten months or something like
19:36
that so by the time that the show ends virginity
19:41
has sort of been a non -issue whereas with Katherine
19:44
of course it's an issue because she has had sex
19:47
with Michael and then the first guy she even
19:51
looks at she feels is a betrayal and she can't
19:54
be in these two relationships and so for her
19:57
sex is something that ends the relationship actually
20:01
and may allow her to start another but for Keisha
20:05
and Justin it is again, it becomes a non -entity
20:10
in some ways, the actual conversation about virginity.
20:14
Okay, so is it then fair to say that, in fact,
20:18
and it's not surprising that in Judy Blume's
20:21
book, we have a shockingly romantic view of sexuality.
20:26
I think one of the most interesting things about
20:28
the book as opposed to the series, and this goes
20:32
along with what you're saying, is that there
20:33
very much is the sense that entering into the
20:37
sexual relationship will propel the relationship
20:41
into an emotional space, right? When Catherine's
20:45
mom says, you can't go back to holding hands.
20:48
Once you sort of take the step and that it is
20:51
plunging you, no pun intended, plunging you into
20:54
all of these particular moments of emotional
20:57
depth and vulnerability. And we absolutely see
21:00
that. And that's part of the reason then why
21:02
when she meets Theo and she's like, oh my God,
21:04
I'm attracted to someone else. I have to end
21:06
this other relationship. But with Justin and
21:08
Keisha, there again, really isn't a sense. that
21:14
having the relationship become a sexual one is
21:17
propelling them into greater emotional vulnerable.
21:19
And in part, it's like, well, okay, she was going
21:21
to go down on him in a movie theater on their
21:22
first date. So who knows, right? Again, the whole
21:25
landscape. All kinds of Alanis Morissette references.
21:26
Exactly, exactly. But again, I would say because
21:30
the show is focused on so many other issues and
21:34
the college admission. just in essay ADHD of
21:40
it all, really takes over the sexual part of
21:45
it that could have been. And they're in a relationship
21:49
and they certainly there's questions about whether
21:50
they'll stay together or whether they'll visit
21:52
in college, whether they'll go to the same college.
21:55
But all of those issues really become much more
21:59
paramount than the sexual content of the relationship.
22:04
So we have that I'm not actually already forgotten
22:07
who breaks up with whom at the end of he breaks
22:10
up with her right at the end of forever the series
22:12
breaks up with her because He feels that he cannot
22:17
Really find himself. He's he's basically living
22:20
for her He is his only goal is her and that he
22:24
decides not to go to Northwestern to defer admission
22:27
Okay, you do the record producing to look at
22:31
CVS to Basically, you know take a gap here. Yeah
22:37
and find himself Because he had offered to go
22:41
to Howard with her and she's like no I want to
22:43
do my own thing. Yeah, so that He breaks it off,
22:48
but she's like, look, if you're going to end
22:51
this thing, then you need to end it for a reason
22:54
and end it for you. And I choose myself. Right.
23:00
Speaking of Samantha. Right. Right. Well, and
23:04
also some 90210 references. I believe Brenda
23:08
chooses herself when she goes to England. So
23:12
I can't believe actually we didn't even think
23:14
to talk about Brenda losing her virginity in
23:17
90210. At the prom. At the prom. At the prom.
23:21
This all goes with our episode. I don't know
23:24
how we forgot. How? How? And I was just thinking
23:26
about Shannon Doherty yesterday. Very sad about
23:29
Shannon Doherty. Of course, one of the that episode,
23:35
we might as well talk about it for a second.
23:36
That episode, of course, was so shocking, right?
23:39
And widely credited as the episode that propelled
23:42
90210 into the stratosphere in terms of popularity
23:45
and a legion of dresses. I wore that dress to
23:51
my prom. Really? Yes. That black dress with the
23:55
white puffy sleeves. I wore it. And of course,
23:58
that was very much presented as the ideal. So
24:04
you're at your prom, you're super dressed up,
24:07
your date slash boyfriend is super hot, but he's
24:11
also incredibly thoughtful, incredibly considerate.
24:15
And Brenda even says afterwards, I can't imagine
24:18
what it would be like to do this for the first
24:20
time, not with someone that I loved. I'm not
24:22
at like the Beverly Hills Hotel or wherever they
24:26
were. Wherever they are. So wait, so here's,
24:32
here's then a question about Forever the Series.
24:34
And then maybe we can start talking about some
24:36
of our other virginity losses. So would Forever
24:41
the Series be any different if the sexual component
24:47
was totally missing? Right. If it were not, if
24:51
we just maybe saw them, you know, make out every
24:53
once in a while. So if the whole, we are quote
24:55
unquote losing our virginity to each other, if
24:57
that simply didn't exist, really would we be
25:00
missing out? Or if they were both not virgins
25:06
and had sex and there was, we knew they were
25:09
having sex, but that was just another component
25:12
of a relationship. I don't think it would have
25:15
been that different. because again the moment
25:19
of their first sexual encounter well there's
25:23
the moment in the apartment where they first
25:25
sort of try to have sex and are not successful
25:29
and that's where he discovers she's a virgin
25:31
and she's nervous and he's nervous and so that's
25:35
you know they're fumbling and they're kind of
25:38
talking through it but then from that to the
25:41
to the time that they have sex there isn't any
25:44
progression or discussion and so it sort of feels
25:49
like that scene which was very natural and normal
25:53
and normalizing for I think for high schoolers
25:56
to see that in some ways was a waste because
25:59
the next scene is there is the Brenda and Dylan
26:01
is the Brenda and Dylan and it's very romantic
26:04
and he has beautiful barn and Martha's Vineyard
26:06
right and he set up a bed and there's the lights
26:09
and and the sex itself is is fabulous as far
26:13
as we can as far as we can tell so it in a lot
26:16
of ways, it almost discredits what came before.
26:20
And I agree. And had the Martha's Vineyard Sex
26:23
happened initially, it really would have the
26:26
series would have been the same. Mm hmm. I agree
26:30
with that. And I think that it's in some ways,
26:32
it's a lost opportunity. But as you have pointed
26:35
out, there are so many other things. Right. That
26:38
that show is so stuffed to the gills with all
26:42
of these other dynamics and issues. Despite being
26:45
So long but despite being so long and really
26:48
I'll say again could have been shorter. I think
26:50
we could have trimmed right a lot of that and
26:53
but obviously wanting to do something very different
26:55
from what forever wanted to do right as I think
26:58
we discussed before Judy Bloom very pointedly
27:00
wanted to write a book that was about a sexual
27:03
relationship that failed right to show to her
27:06
daughter that that was possible that it doesn't
27:08
have to be you're going to marry this guy forever
27:10
and so very much I think fulfills that and. Okay,
27:15
let's actually start talking about a very different
27:18
sort of product about... One thing before we
27:22
leave Forever, which sounds like we've been doing
27:26
Forever Forever, is also that Forever the book
27:30
was for so long the book that people read under
27:35
the covers, that people, libraries had censored,
27:39
that really was this taboo book because it...
27:43
it obviously had so much sex in it, but it was
27:46
a very natural story about high schoolers having
27:51
sex for the first time. And I think the fact
27:55
that Judy Blume and other producers wanted to
27:59
make it again in this sort of, well, it's in
28:02
2025, but 2018 world really speaks to the fact
28:08
that the initial core of what that book was supposed
28:12
to be about may no longer be something. It's
28:16
either not taboo or it's something that people
28:19
are still uncomfortable talking about. And therefore
28:22
we have to talk about these other things that
28:25
We talk a lot about in other content, right?
28:28
We talk a lot about race. We talk a lot about
28:31
urban life. We talk a lot about inequalities
28:34
of all sorts, masculinity, those sorts of things.
28:38
And it would have been interesting to have had
28:42
the series stay true or to the original, if only
28:46
for the fact that it was so taboo for so long,
28:50
in some ways to sort of bring it. out of the
28:52
darkness. Yeah, I agree. And that, to me, goes
28:56
back to the earlier point about the incredible
28:59
irony, right, about this moment in terms of teen
29:03
sexuality. Yes. But again, you have this sextant.
29:06
I mean, I absolutely don't think that it could
29:08
be made right in a very faithful way. for exactly
29:11
the reason that you're saying it's still taboo
29:13
it's still understood to be again sort of too
29:16
explicit too shocking but the idea again that
29:19
we have a world in which it is too shocking too
29:23
taboo but again we have access to porn through
29:27
the internet through phones again the idea of
29:29
the sex tape in the plot that to me is just so
29:33
bonkers right it's just so inconsistent and bizarre
29:36
and And I mean, really, I think sums up our moment
29:40
in such a bizarre and disturbing and really worrisome
29:43
way. It is. It is a very uneven level of sexual
29:50
literacy when teenagers hear all kinds of podcasts,
29:57
are exposed to all kinds of porn, understand
30:00
all kinds of fetishes and kinks, and see all
30:05
kinds of arrangements. you know, things like
30:08
that, but do not have a basic understanding of,
30:14
again, getting to know someone, having a first
30:17
encounter with somebody and what that looks like
30:20
and dating on a pretty basic level of just going
30:25
to the movies and going out to eat and hanging
30:28
out with friends, having having friend groups.
30:31
but rather DMing and texting and blocking and
30:35
breaking up talking and talking. And then it
30:38
is it is wild. It is a wild disparity that is
30:43
hard to can wrap your head around sometimes.
30:46
It's back to the oh, this is going to be a great
30:48
segue. It's back to what you mentioned in an
30:51
earlier episode about all of the guidelines for
30:54
prom, right? And we asked at the time, how can
30:59
anyone possibly, like Brenda, run off and lose
31:01
their virginity at prom if there's so many guidelines
31:03
and parent chaperones at prom? Which does take
31:06
us to the next thing we were going to talk about,
31:08
which is the 1999 film American Pie. Absolutely
31:14
a movie, I think we would agree, that would not
31:18
and could not be made today and very much was
31:24
in the train of sort of sex comedies of the 80s
31:28
or something like Porky's and the million other
31:30
things that were made in the late 70s and 1980s
31:33
about teenagers who wanted to get laid. I believe
31:36
there is a movie called Losing It. There is and
31:38
you know what actually we again don't have to
31:40
talk about it now but my I'm realizing right
31:43
now my favorite film about a teenager trying
31:47
to get laid for the first time is Risky Business.
31:50
Oh, yes. Absolutely a classic. One of my hands
31:54
down favorite films ever. where there is a sex
31:57
worker, right? To help our hero, Tom Cruise,
32:01
lose his virginity. I feel like we keep coming
32:03
back to our first episode. We do! Where is Enora
32:07
in all of this? Where is Enora in all of this?
32:09
Where is the sassy sex worker? Of course, the
32:12
sex worker in Risky Business ends up being, you
32:14
know, sort of a con person. Anyway, we won't
32:17
talk about Risky Business now. But so, American
32:19
Pie, again, 1999, where there had been, I think
32:23
it's fair to say, maybe a lull in those sex comedy
32:26
movies in the 1990s. And for those of you who
32:30
haven't seen it, it really is sort of wonderfully
32:32
funny and risque. It's about a group of guy friends
32:36
in what? They're in Michigan, right? Suburban
32:39
Michigan. A group of guy friends, all of whom
32:42
want to lose their virginity by the end of their
32:44
senior year in high school. And when the film
32:47
begins, we are centered on maybe the least likely
32:51
of the group to lose his virginity. And that
32:54
is Jim. played by Jason Biggs, the main character
32:56
of American Pie. But there is a whole group of
33:00
friends, right? We have a bunch of his guy friends
33:02
who are in this kind of pact, and then the various
33:05
women who are also in the orbit. Right, and some
33:07
of the women are already in relationships with
33:11
this guy group, and some of these guys are on
33:15
a mission to find new women to fulfill their
33:19
pact with. It's charming and raunchy all at the
33:26
same time. Really terrific performances by Biggs,
33:30
particularly by Eugene Levy, his father, and
33:34
many of the supporting characters who are, even
33:37
though they are in real life, much older than
33:40
I told students. really do a great job at capturing
33:45
the, you know, the silliness and the insanity
33:49
of senior year and of these stupid arrangements
33:55
that people make to try to have sex. And then
33:58
some of these sort of frenemies and different
34:01
kinds of dynamics within the friendships between
34:04
these four guys. And then the women that they
34:08
pursue and they pursue women at different levels
34:12
and again Jim being this sort of central character
34:15
you know he he tries to romance this exchange
34:20
student gorgeous exchange student who ends up
34:24
being way more up for things than he thought
34:30
she would be and the whole thing gets caught
34:32
on camera and somehow I don't remember what the
34:35
technology was back then but they have a little
34:37
web like a setup web cam. They didn't have phones.
34:41
How do people see it? People see it because the
34:44
little webcam that they have is physically attached
34:48
to a computer. And it's basically going through
34:51
a modem. And that's how they can see the ancient
34:53
technology of the modem. Okay, that's how they're
34:56
seeing people see this video goes viral, right?
34:59
I'm not even basically naked initially in his
35:02
room. Just completely messing it up and and then
35:08
Nadia gets deported. I totally forgot that. I
35:16
totally forgot that. I completely forgot that.
35:18
Okay, I completely forgot that out somehow. That's
35:21
like that 2025 moment in Back, Back, Back. Anyway,
35:26
there's that. There's, again, all kinds of shenanigans
35:31
harkening back to Porky's. Jim has sex with an
35:36
actual pie. With an actual pie. funniest scenes
35:40
of that film. But you see all kinds of stupidity
35:47
and all kinds of mayhem going on with these guys.
35:51
And by the end of it, they all do find women,
35:55
although in different ways, and some almost by
35:59
accident. What's his name? Chris Cooper? Chris
36:06
Cline? Chris Cline. Chris Klein, who plays Oz,
36:15
he is a kind of jock, lacrosse, lacrosse guy.
36:20
He romances, falls in love with this choir chick
36:25
played by Mina Savari and they actually end up
36:28
falling in love and he turns into sort of an
36:30
acapella guy himself and they work out. And that's
36:37
one of the really interesting things about the
36:40
film right is that these all of the guys are
36:42
in very different sort of romantic and sexual
36:44
situations right so Jim again looks to be the
36:47
least promising Oz looks to be this kind of jock
36:52
and he ends up as you say with Heather who's
36:54
the super sweet and played by me and a very very
36:57
pretty sort of singer this kind of from a very
37:00
different sort of social group. And then we have
37:04
Stifler, this super raunchy kind of classic asshole.
37:09
And he's sort of not quite in that central friend
37:11
group, right? But he's in the lax Oz universe.
37:14
Yes, that sort of jockey space. But then, of
37:17
course, we have, so you have Jim, where it looks
37:20
super unpromising. And then you have an actual
37:23
established couple, Kevin and Vicky. And so that
37:28
is really, to me, the most depressing scenario
37:31
because Kevin and Vicky are a stable couple,
37:34
much like Justin and Keisha. They're thinking
37:37
about what's going to happen next year when Vicky
37:39
goes off to Cornell or wherever she's going.
37:42
I think it was Cornell. No, I think he goes to
37:46
Cornell and I think she goes to Ithaca, I'm pretty
37:51
sure. Okay we should have looked this up yeah
37:54
because for some reason i just have in my head
37:55
oh how funny that Tara Reid was going to be going
37:57
to Cornell. But they are a stable couple they're
38:00
trying to decide what to do and he very much
38:03
is pressuring her to have sex because they are
38:05
not they're in a stable romantic relationship
38:07
but they're not having sex right and so his component
38:11
of this whole pact to lose their virginity is
38:13
that he basically ends up pressuring his girlfriend
38:16
his reluctant girlfriend in a lot of ways to
38:18
have sex and also that terror. Reid is insistent
38:23
as she tells her friend Natasha Leone's character,
38:26
Jessica, that she has to feel that he loves her.
38:31
Yes. He has to hear that he loves her or she
38:34
cannot have sex with him. And he doesn't know
38:37
whether he does. And he doesn't know whether
38:39
he's ready to say this. So there's a tension
38:43
above just the pressuring. It's not just the
38:46
pressuring to have sex, but it's also A question
38:49
of whether these two are in love or whether at
38:52
least he's willing to say he's in love, even
38:54
if he doesn't mean it. Yes. If, in fact, he is
38:57
that craven that he will tell his girlfriend
38:59
that he loves her solely in order to lose his
39:02
virginity and that it is so public. Right. And
39:05
that's another component of this is that all
39:07
of these guys are consistently discussing their
39:11
progress or lack thereof. Right. Right. And so
39:14
one of the really sort of fantastic parts of
39:17
the end is that when Oz and Heather do have sex
39:23
he will not tell his friends, right? He basically,
39:27
he leaves them with the impression that he has
39:29
not lost his virginity by just saying something
39:31
like, we spent wonderful time together. I think
39:33
he said didn't work out this time. Oh, I don't
39:35
remember that. Maybe next time. Yeah, because
39:37
one of his guy friends definitely says that like,
39:39
oh, sorry, it kind of didn't work out for you.
39:41
Right. And so he very much is shown to be a gentleman,
39:45
right? Where he is someone who does have sex,
39:47
right? But again, sort of treasures this brand
39:49
new relationship with Heather. And so isn't just
39:52
kind of kiss and tell. Right. And on the other
39:54
end of that, we have the two funniest scenes,
39:59
the one between Finch and Stiglitz's mom, played
40:03
by the wonderful Jennifer Coolidge. Looking gorgeous.
40:05
Looking amazing and coming in and seeing this
40:12
young 18 year old. guy in her basement alone
40:18
and seducing him and, you know, can call back
40:22
to... The graduates. Very specifically. Very
40:25
specifically. And play the music and it's hilarious
40:28
and very unexpected and again leads to Finch's
40:33
obsession, actually, with Stifler's mom. But
40:36
also the fact that Finch and Stifler have become
40:39
such enemies by the end of this movie and that,
40:43
you know, They're putting pranks on one another
40:45
and they're trying to, you know, discredit one
40:48
another. And so it's the ultimate betrayal that
40:52
differs more with Fitch. And then you have...
40:56
the Jason Biggs character, Jim, who does ultimately
41:00
have sex with his band girl, Michelle, who he
41:04
thinks is just going to be a sort of lost cause
41:06
and just a date and there's no way of prudish.
41:10
The night's done for. There's no way that this
41:12
girl is up for anything and she turns out to
41:16
be a sex maniac. Super horny and, you know, doing
41:19
all sorts of stuff at band camp and he learns
41:23
that she's up for anything. She's up for anything.
41:26
And this, of course, it almost approaches the
41:28
level of a twist, right? That consistently she
41:31
has been shown to us and to Jim as being, as
41:33
you say, super geeky, going to band camp, and
41:36
then we have this sense that she's a wild woman.
41:40
And so it's funny because Jim ends up with this
41:44
kind of happy... ending, right? Not in a romantic
41:47
sense, like we see with Oz and Heather, although
41:50
eventually, right, in subsequent sequels, Jim
41:52
and Michelle have a relationship. They get married!
41:54
They get married! They get married! But very
41:57
much this sense of, like, this is a win. right,
41:59
that he is so dejected, right, we have seen him
42:02
through all of these humiliations, including
42:04
with Nadia, including the relationship with the
42:07
pie, the warm apple pie, and that then he does
42:11
have kind of a win. So all of them, right, end
42:14
up losing their virginity, but in not just radically
42:17
different ways, but with different kind of emotional
42:20
levels. And also different kinds of Physical
42:22
satisfaction because as we learn in the second
42:26
movie Jim just sucks Terrible terrible terrible
42:31
doesn't know what to do and that Michelle becomes
42:35
his tutor pretty much his sexual tutor in the
42:39
second movie. Looking forward to Nadia coming
42:41
back. And by the end, of course, he's no longer
42:44
interested in Nadia and he's in love with Michelle.
42:46
But some of them know what they're doing. Some
42:48
of them don't know what they're doing. And some
42:51
of them are with women who know a little more,
42:53
stuff like mom, mainly. But there are different
42:56
levels of experience and different levels of
42:58
awkwardness, which going back to what we just
43:01
talked about with Forever gives a larger spectrum
43:04
of the possibilities for these people. in high
43:09
school. And again, the Brenda and Dylan, to go
43:12
back to that sequence, we never see anything
43:15
but, again, flowers and birds and angels coming.
43:19
We don't see any awkwardness there. We don't.
43:21
And we do see a lot of awkwardness, particularly
43:25
with the Kevin and Vicky sex scene. Oh, which
43:28
is so depressing. Which is really depressing.
43:30
It's very sad. Genuinely sad. And you don't know
43:33
whether they mean it when they say they love
43:34
one another. Well, they love one another on a
43:37
platonic level or on a friendship level or something
43:40
like that. But we don't want to know whether
43:42
they truly love one another in a romantic sense.
43:45
And there's very, I mean, my takeaway was always
43:48
that this is a sad kind of coda to the relationship.
43:52
Yes. That the relationship is over. Right. That
43:55
it is over. And so, yes, instead of again being
43:57
this kind of... a very romantic beginning, as
44:00
we see with Oz and Heather, or even sort of a
44:03
fun thing like what Jim experiences or Finch
44:07
and Stifler's mom. There is the sense of like
44:09
that having sex, there's nothing joyful about
44:13
it. There's nothing that has brought them closer
44:15
that the opposite has happened. That the having
44:17
sex is kind of this exclamation point on the
44:20
fact that this relationship is basically over.
44:22
And if we move to the second film for Kevin,
44:25
if I'm remembering correctly, he thinks that
44:29
having sex with Vicky in the first movie will
44:31
lead to experience in college and a more fulfilling
44:34
sex life in college, which it doesn't. He is
44:37
continually either unfulfilled or it's not really
44:39
working out. He doesn't really date very many
44:41
people and he sees her at a party and she has
44:44
a boyfriend and that's very, very depressing.
44:46
So it doesn't have the end goal that he thinks
44:51
it will. Which is a really interesting, I think,
44:54
moral lesson. And to me, that's one of the most
44:56
interesting components of that whole storyline
44:57
in a movie that is basically a super raunchy
45:01
sex comedy. Right. We have this overall arc of
45:04
this particular character who pressures his girlfriend
45:07
into sex, who it seems is willing to say, I love
45:10
you just in order to get laid. And again, envisions,
45:13
as you say, this kind of sexual paradise when
45:15
he goes to college as an experienced person,
45:17
not a virgin. And it all falls apart. Right.
45:20
There's no sense. that he has developed any kind
45:22
of emotional tools. His technical maturity is
45:26
only sexual. Whereas, again, as you say, Vicky
45:29
has gone off. She has a relationship with a guy
45:31
in college. And so he is absolutely sort of stunted.
45:35
And I've always thought, again, that that was
45:37
such a subtle but really effective thing to do
45:41
with that character. Again, amid all of the raunchiness
45:44
and the fact that we are rooting for them all
45:47
to get laid. Right, I mean very much. We are.
45:49
But the raunchiness of that film, which in some
45:54
way to me kind of mirrors Bridesmaids, because
45:57
there's some of the other films that are The
46:02
Hangover, where you have all of these scenes
46:06
of raunch, or these scenes of extreme hilarity,
46:12
but then at the core of it, there are these really
46:16
deep, emotional questions that need to be answered.
46:21
And here they're about these four characters
46:23
and what their longer journeys are going to be,
46:27
but what kind of intimacy are they capable of?
46:31
And again, not to go to a totally different movie,
46:32
but Bridesmaids had a lot to do with the friendship
46:35
between the two characters and what happens when
46:38
your best friend does get married and the kind
46:42
of loss that you mourn and that sort of thing.
46:45
And so that's why I think that American Pie does
46:47
such a great job, again, on the surface level,
46:50
seeming like a Porky's or seeming like one of
46:54
those 80s movies that, again, losing it or weird
46:59
science. Last American Virgin, weird science,
47:02
yeah. Risky Business. And again, Risky Business
47:04
has a lot of content to it as well. It's a great
47:06
film. It is a great film. But American Pie, I
47:09
think, at the moment that it came out was so
47:12
popular, and then had, what, four? Four other,
47:15
four of them? Yeah, I think so. They're four
47:17
American guys, right? I think so, yeah. Leading
47:19
to a wedding and then a reunion. A reunion. It
47:24
became very popular because I think people really
47:27
related to those characters, to those friendships,
47:31
but also to those four different versions of
47:34
what sex could be, what high school could be,
47:37
what the end of high school could be and... all
47:41
those things. And of course, you mentioned earlier,
47:44
the Eugene Levy character, Jim's dad. And of
47:47
course, one of the other super appealing things
47:49
about those films, and especially the first one,
47:51
is that you have this father who is so awkward,
47:55
right, keeps doing these bizarre things. And
47:57
obviously, I mean, Eugene Levy is so incredibly
47:59
funny. But there's this unbelievable sort of
48:01
tenderness, right, in that relationship, where
48:04
it's and it's very much that the dad is on his
48:08
side, right? He wants Jim to have this experience,
48:12
but not in this kind of Justin in forever, right?
48:16
The dad throwing him condoms and saying, like,
48:17
here, take care of it, son. You know, go for
48:19
it. And I think that really does hit this sweet
48:22
spot, because you do, again, have this very awkward
48:25
dad in a stable marriage, right? In a stable
48:27
marriage to Jim's mom. But the idea that, oh,
48:30
OK, you know, this kind of sort of boys will
48:32
be boys, but in a very different way, because
48:35
everything is in the sense of awkwardness, in
48:38
the sense of sort of... be responsible and in
48:40
the sense of like, we're all just going to kind
48:42
of screw this up and do these sort of daffy things.
48:44
But you also get the sense that Eugene Levy himself
48:47
as a high school student was a gym. Exactly.
48:49
And you do not get the sense that Justin's dad
48:52
was a Justin. No, absolutely not. And everything
48:55
that Eugene Levy says comes through so genuinely
48:58
because you can see him sort of remembering through
49:02
his son what it was like. cringing at these things
49:07
that are happening while at the same time feeling
49:09
so much pathos and wanting to be there for his
49:12
son, but at the same time not wanting to push
49:15
him into anything that he is uncomfortable with
49:18
or not ready for. And it's really sweet, but
49:21
at the same time, there's not a lot of words
49:22
exchanged. There's no like big sit down talk
49:26
except for... Except for things that are awkward,
49:29
right? Right, right. Except for things that are
49:31
awkward. When Jim, when Jim... When they're looking
49:33
at board mags together. Right, right. And there
49:35
are so many, there's so much physical comedy
49:38
as well. Yes, yes. In all of the American Pie
49:41
movies. Whether it's the pie, whether it's the
49:45
second one where he's caught, you know, doing,
49:49
I think he's like jerking off and he glues himself
49:51
to himself. It's like so horrible. It reminds
49:54
me of, there's something about Mary happening.
49:56
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And again,
50:00
Eugene Levy is who he calls. And it's like calling
50:04
your dad when you're in this incredibly awkward,
50:06
embarrassing situation. But Eugene Levy has been
50:10
there. Yes. Whether it happens on screen or not,
50:15
but we know he's been there. He has been there.
50:17
We know he gets it. And also that these other
50:21
guys are like, your dad's pretty cool. Your dad
50:23
gets it. And it's a very sweet relationship.
50:27
Yeah. And I think that the movie just absolutely
50:29
would not have worked without it. And it is just
50:33
then another moment, much like again Oz and Heather,
50:35
where you really do have this kind of tenderness,
50:38
this sweetness amid the raunchy sex comedy, which
50:41
just I think, I mean, it sounds so ridiculous
50:42
to say it elevates it, but it really... does.
50:45
But thinking also in terms of moment before we
50:47
maybe start talking about Fast Times at Ridgemont
50:49
High. So would it even be possible now, right,
50:53
to have a film about high schoolers, you know,
50:56
even thinking of Forever as a series, where say
50:58
we see Nadia in effect, who's supposed to be
51:01
a high school what senior, right, what almost
51:04
fully new right in that film, right, and something
51:07
else where Is it even possible? And everyone
51:11
is watching. And everyone is watching, right?
51:14
Jim runs over to me. She has not consented to
51:16
everyone watching. She has consented, certainly,
51:19
to have sex with Jim, potentially. Yes, potentially.
51:22
But she's basically, she's in the room kind of
51:24
touching herself naked while all of these guys
51:27
are watching her right across the town. Which
51:29
Jim has advertised is going to happen. Yes, and
51:32
so we have this early kind of sex tape, right?
51:34
Much like Keisha's sex tape. I think it is so
51:38
I mean even again thinking all right how could
51:41
you even have a rated r film right right about
51:45
high schoolers naked high schoolers right having
51:48
sex now like in what possible cultural landscape
51:51
of the united states in 2025 is that even possible
51:53
well apparently we can only have naked women
51:56
in anora Yes, but they are not high schoolers.
52:00
But she's not a high schooler. She's not a high
52:01
schooler, right? She's not a high schooler. And
52:03
certainly, yes, lots of lots, as we talked about
52:06
at the time, lots of lap dances with the boobs,
52:08
but no high schoolers. And OK, well, let's start
52:12
talking about Fast Times at Richmond High, because
52:14
this, of course, is a film that in so many ways,
52:19
I mean, I think was super, super realistic for
52:21
the period in which it was made. What, 1982,
52:25
1981, I think we should have looked that up.
52:27
and really shows, again, not a film that could
52:31
be made today. No. Right? Absolutely not. But
52:35
in terms of the character of Stacey and her friend
52:38
Linda, whom we talked about last time, but specifically
52:41
the way in which Stacey's sexuality and losing
52:45
her virginity is talked about completely, right?
52:49
Could not be done today. Yes. Yes. It could not
52:52
be done today for reasons that are still unclear
52:57
to me, even the conversation. But at least the
53:03
way that it is depicted with Linda saying, oh,
53:06
just get it over. I was 13. I was 13. You're
53:10
at the ripe old age of 15. You're a hag. Just
53:15
go do it. Just get it over with. Have sex with
53:18
Ron, the stereo salesman who is 26 years old.
53:23
And that'll that'll be great. And then you'll
53:26
be able to move on to other relationships and
53:29
basically bonk the rest of the school. And there's
53:33
other guys you meet at the mall. Yeah. And there's
53:35
there's really not going to be any repercussions
53:37
for this. And there's no discussion with Stacey
53:40
and Linda about. STDs or birth control or anything
53:45
like that. And there should have been. And there
53:47
should have been. But this is something else,
53:50
of course, and we talked about this a little
53:51
bit before, where the total absence of parents
53:56
is particularly germane. So we're not having
54:00
any kind of sit down right between Stacey and
54:03
her mom, you know, let's talk about the first
54:05
time and let's talk about birth control and let's
54:07
talk about STDs. Or even with Brad. Or even with
54:10
Brad. I mean, which does make sense. I mean,
54:12
again, she's a sophomore in high school, right?
54:14
She's not necessarily necessarily going to talk
54:17
about sort of her sexual life until eventually
54:19
he has to help her, you know, get back home from
54:21
the abortion. But but that I do think that that
54:25
is shockingly realistic. Yeah. And it's all everything
54:30
Stacey knows is coming from this older girlfriend.
54:33
And from mall culture, in general. And from mall
54:35
culture. From the other girls who work in the
54:37
pizza place, who are like, oh, I'll take him
54:40
if you're not gonna take him, and her girlfriends,
54:43
and just... And other girls in high school, the
54:47
older girls, we see if she's paying attention
54:49
to the older girls, how they're trying to look
54:51
sexy, the ones who look like Pat Benatar. And
54:54
this is very much on her radar screen. But the
54:57
thing that's the most insane, and would never
54:59
happen today, is that I clocked it. It really
55:02
was within the first 15 minutes of the movie.
55:05
Stacey met Ron. Stacey got in Ron's car. And
55:10
Stacey and Ron go to the point where they have
55:13
sex. And that happens right away. Immediately.
55:17
Immediately. Immediately. Immediately. And there
55:19
is no, of course, and this is problematic, there
55:21
is no conversation between Stacey and Ron about
55:25
what's going to happen. He does ask, right, if
55:28
she is 18. Right. He does say, are you 18? And
55:32
of course, she lies and tells him that. But yes,
55:35
but there's no conversation about birth control,
55:38
about are we going to have sex? Are you a virgin?
55:41
Are you a virgin? But again, but he's, he's assuming
55:43
that she's 18. So as far as he knows, right,
55:46
she's been having sex for the past five years,
55:47
right? So she was 13 like Linda. So, right, right.
55:51
Why would you assume that an 18 year old in California
55:53
in 1981 was a virgin, right? It would be like,
55:56
it would be like the 35 year old people that
55:57
we're seeing on that television show. On the
56:00
show. So he assumes, of course, she goes through
56:03
with it. And she is doing as Linda told her to
56:07
do, which is get it over with. And wouldn't say
56:10
enjoy, but Go through with her with it and he
56:14
drops her off and she expects that this will
56:17
lead to some sort of relationship which surprise
56:22
surprise Flowers which is an interesting touch
56:27
it is thinking of you Ron It's interesting that
56:32
he's you know kind of forked over for the flowers
56:35
but It doesn't lead to the outcome that she is
56:40
expecting and then it's on to the next. And then
56:42
it's on to the next. And so I would argue that
56:46
Stacey has the two most depressing sex scenes
56:50
in the entirety of American cinematic history.
56:54
So in that first we see, like there's no, she
56:57
has two sex scenes in the film. Right. So we
57:00
have with Ron in a baseball dugout, right, where
57:03
the camera dwells upon like the graffiti. Yeah.
57:06
Right. It's so, she's on this like bench or whatever.
57:09
Right. It's so depressing. We are the exact opposite
57:11
of Brenda and Dylan. Right. Yes. In the fantastic
57:14
suite or wherever they, you know, during the
57:16
prom. Right. And then, of course, we have the
57:19
equally terrible scene in the cabana at her own
57:23
house in the afternoon after school with Damone,
57:27
where again, there's no conversation about birth
57:29
control. Right. And again, there's no conversation
57:31
of like, oh, are we going to do this thing or
57:33
not? Right. It's zero to 60 in both cases. Right.
57:38
And where? Yes. And the other scene in the middle,
57:43
which isn't a full on sex scene, but it's her
57:46
hope that Rat is going to do something with her.
57:51
They come back from the date, she changes into
57:54
a bathrobe, they go into her room, they start
57:57
to kiss a little bit, and then he gets so nervous
58:00
and runs out. Which is a normal reaction as well.
58:05
And she takes it as rejection, and she is bummed
58:10
out, and then goes from that experience to demote.
58:16
Which is, again, zero to 60. Zero to 60. And
58:20
without conversation either. Without Stacey and
58:24
Rat saying, hey, really enjoyed the date. Sorry
58:28
I had to leave. I'd like to see you again. And
58:31
then maybe the next time they see each other,
58:33
they're able to make out a little bit longer.
58:36
That sort of thing. But it never happens. It
58:39
never happens. And he then, of course, shows
58:41
his true colors by, in effect, hiding when she
58:44
needs the abortion. Right. And so if we think
58:46
about it, so Stacey in the film, Stacey has sex
58:49
two times. Right. And gets pregnant the second
58:54
time she has sex. So in a sense, she's sort of
58:56
proving almost true, right? The 1950s horror
58:59
stories of like, don't lose your virginity, wait
59:01
until you're married because you might get pregnant
59:03
the very first time you do it. Right. And it's
59:05
the second. And so in terms of sort of her kind
59:10
of sexual development, losing her virginity,
59:13
it's basically the worst case scenario. The only
59:17
thing that could be possibly worse is, actually
59:21
another movie about someone losing virginity,
59:25
is Metropolitan. I don't know if you ever saw
59:27
Whit Stillman's Metropolitan, but Chloe Sevigny
59:30
loses her virginity and actually gets herpes
59:32
the very first time that she has sex. So that's
59:36
also sort of a worst case scenario. But Stacey's...
59:39
Stacey is fulfilling right this goal to sort
59:42
of be mature to be sexually mature But we as
59:45
viewers see what is so depressing right so sad
59:50
and as you said before The other problem with
59:54
this is that her sounding board is Linda, who
59:57
just says, keep doing it again, it'll feel better.
1:00:00
Me and Doug have an amazing sex life. You never
1:00:05
see him. He's some older experienced man. And
1:00:08
if you just keep going at it, it's going to be
1:00:12
great. And she never has an adult. to talk to,
1:00:17
at least shown to us, about anything that has
1:00:20
been going on with her. And she has the abortion,
1:00:23
she leaves, and then moves on. And it's really,
1:00:28
really heartbreaking in a lot of ways that you
1:00:31
don't see the kind of processing, you don't see
1:00:35
the kind of emotional journey for her. And if
1:00:40
that movie were made today, and of course there
1:00:43
have been, other movies about these topics and
1:00:46
other, you know, whatever, serial dramas or whatever,
1:00:48
where we see long, long episodes of people thinking
1:00:54
about these, these issues. Stacey, again, in
1:00:58
this movie that is an hour and a half is, is
1:01:02
sort of in and out, so to speak. In and out.
1:01:04
In most situations. But then you also have sort
1:01:08
of the The idea at the end right that she and
1:01:13
rat are going to pursue a relationship But that
1:01:16
that it's a chaste one right so the choices that
1:01:19
the movie presents us in terms of Stacey Stacey
1:01:22
right miserable absolutely miserable sexual experiences
1:01:25
right totally void of any romantic or emotional
1:01:29
attachment or This kind of sweet relationship
1:01:32
with rat that first becomes as you say as he
1:01:35
runs out it becomes again sort of doesn't work,
1:01:38
but then at the end, they're dating and chased,
1:01:41
right? So these, there's no Catherine and Michael
1:01:45
moment, right? Where these things come together,
1:01:47
the sexual relationship with this deep emotional
1:01:50
connection. But I also think, you know, what
1:01:53
so, you know, thinking about forever as being
1:01:54
what, 1975 or whatever. So you do have this moment,
1:01:57
right, in forever, she can talk to her grandmother
1:01:59
about birth control, she can talk to her mom,
1:02:03
but of course, Catherine is not Gen X. Katherine
1:02:07
is not Gen X. Whereas Stacey is Gen X. And so
1:02:12
it makes, this is why I say, it makes perfect
1:02:15
sense to me. No parents, no conversation, no
1:02:18
supervision. Gen X just completely left on its
1:02:22
own to try to negotiate this with Linda as the
1:02:26
adult in the room and her 25 year old boyfriends
1:02:29
or whatever. And so I do think as dark and depressing
1:02:33
as Stacey's experience is, it is this. wonderful,
1:02:38
so perfect Gen X moment of sexuality. And especially
1:02:41
in comparison, again, to the Generation After,
1:02:43
which is Jim and his friends. Which is Jim and
1:02:45
his friends. By this time, you have Eugene Levy
1:02:47
parenting. You have, looks like, other parents.
1:02:51
You have the internet. You have other adults
1:02:54
on the scene in the film where, again, you have
1:02:58
Stifler's mom. You have Stifler's mom. Who, again,
1:03:00
might be acting completely inappropriately, but
1:03:03
she is... around and the idea that you have adults
1:03:08
on the scene in that film in ways that you have
1:03:12
no adults except for Mr. Hand and the other teacher.
1:03:15
The other creepy teacher. And Ron. All these
1:03:21
people who are in some ways preying on the students
1:03:24
in different ways, not Mr. Hand, but again, just
1:03:28
completely skeevy. That is such an 80s... thing
1:03:33
to portray. And again, that's why the movie works
1:03:37
so well. Yeah, I agree. And again, we think back
1:03:39
to risky business, no parents at home. No parents
1:03:41
at home. Yes, on purpose. On purpose. And you
1:03:44
know, and what's interesting about I mean, I
1:03:46
just risky business, of course, is interesting
1:03:49
in that you have the whole dynamic of Justin
1:03:53
and Keisha, where are we getting into college?
1:03:56
The mom in Risky Business is basically Justin's
1:03:59
mom. Can you take your SATs again? Can you do
1:04:02
this extracurricular activity? You have to get
1:04:04
into Princeton. The guy is going to come here
1:04:06
to do the interview. And yes, so you have the
1:04:09
absence of the parents, which sets up the whole
1:04:11
plot in terms of turning the house into a whorehouse.
1:04:14
But you absolutely have this sense of sort of,
1:04:16
in that case, 1980s materialism. Everyone needs
1:04:20
to get into Harvard or Princeton, so they become
1:04:22
bankers and hedge fund managers. And the sense
1:04:25
of this really kind of oppressive parental thing.
1:04:29
And that, of course, in that case, that Joel
1:04:31
is terrified. to have sex because he sees losing
1:04:34
his virginity as losing his future, right? And
1:04:37
losing success, which of course we don't have
1:04:39
in forever. The series, even though we do have
1:04:41
the overbearing mother and you have to get into
1:04:43
a great college and here's your tutors and all
1:04:45
this other sort of stuff. So I guess just to
1:04:48
return, we're pretty much out of time, but just
1:04:51
to return for one minute to Brenda and Dylan
1:04:54
at the prom. But if you think about it, but that
1:04:57
also then is a kind of Jen X moment right sort
1:05:02
of younger Jen X but still where so Brenda's
1:05:07
not talking about it with her mom ahead of time
1:05:10
right she's talking with her friends but then.
1:05:13
it kind of goes sideways almost immediately when
1:05:15
she thinks she might be pregnant. Right. Right.
1:05:17
And then the parents come in. Then they come
1:05:20
in. And then she and Dylan are sitting on the
1:05:24
cliff side and in the car. Listening to those
1:05:28
in my religion. Right. And she's like, I can't
1:05:30
handle this. I can't handle this. This is too
1:05:32
much for me. And it's an interesting way to think
1:05:36
about the weight of what has just happened to
1:05:39
her in a way that, again, it didn't happen for
1:05:41
Stacey. Yes. Yeah. And again, we don't see that
1:05:46
weight later with Keisha. And we do see it with
1:05:50
Catherine. Very much so. So it's, again, generationally
1:05:54
speaking, this moment has very, very different
1:05:57
meanings. And I do. it's also interesting, kind
1:06:01
of sad, and I think this is something we should
1:06:03
talk about in a future episode. You know, thinking
1:06:05
about Fast Times at Ridgemont High coming out
1:06:07
in the early 80s, of course you did have these
1:06:10
sort of Brooke Shields moments, right? A film
1:06:13
in the 1970s, like Blue Lagoon, like Pretty Baby,
1:06:17
right, where these... super, super young girls
1:06:21
that she is playing are losing their virginity,
1:06:23
right? In very, in some ways disturbing ways,
1:06:26
you know, something I do think we need a dedicated,
1:06:28
the dedicated Brooke Shields episode. But in
1:06:31
that sense, right, Stacey, you know, in the baseball
1:06:34
dugout or whatever, that almost looks okay compared
1:06:37
to some of the things that we saw in films in
1:06:39
the 1970s. And yeah, and maybe we can table that
1:06:43
for another time. But It is interesting to think
1:06:46
how culturally, generationally. all of these
1:06:50
things about losing virginity change their radical,
1:06:52
but still it is so appealing. And it is interesting
1:06:56
to think about if there is a Gen Z movie, something
1:06:59
other than Forever, about losing one's virginity,
1:07:03
what would that even look like? What would that
1:07:06
even look like? And I can't even imagine. No,
1:07:09
no. It's impossible. It is. It is. And it's hard
1:07:15
to imagine. The one thing that I would say, maybe
1:07:20
the Gen Z version, and this is again for another,
1:07:23
would be that it would be a non -heteronormative
1:07:27
experience. That it is more common to see queer
1:07:31
films where people lose their virginity or are
1:07:35
coming into their own later on than it is for
1:07:40
heterosexual couples at this particular moment.
1:07:44
Yeah, that's interesting. And that's something
1:07:45
for us to talk about in the future. Okay. Okay.
1:07:48
Well, that is it for this episode, and we will
1:07:52
look forward, Ben, Lauren to next time. And until
1:07:55
then, Harpies out.