Latest / The HighDive / Ep. 19 | In The Beginning | Made in His Image: Understanding Our Identity

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Ep. 19 | In The Beginning | Made in His Image: Understanding Our Identity · The HighDive

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, welcome back.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's Genesis episode four.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: We're here.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think chapter one.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're still in chapter one.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I tell you what, I've been loving the high dive podcast.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, yeah.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: You told me when we very first started this podcast.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's a most podcasts don't make it past X number.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: What was it you told me?
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: 90% of podcasts never make it past 10 episodes.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: We're here.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: We're like, and the gold standard is to make it to 20.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're so close.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Almost to the gold standard.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm telling you.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Very few podcasts make it to episode 20.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: When we get to 20, we need to add like a gold star.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: We've made the gold star.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: We can wear one too.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Put a we could.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we can wear it.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: So here we go.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, here we are.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Here's a fun question.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: God created Adam.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: God created Eve.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Did Adam and Eve have a belly button?
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, of course.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: When God finished, he goes, you're done.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the Pillsbury Doughboy.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: You're done.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's how he knew he was finished.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's a good question.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's a fun question to think about.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think that if uh if you think about what God did when he created and then the command he gave them following, um they had to be mature enough to accomplish what they were asked to do.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a good thing.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's difficult to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth if you're not of at least a particular age.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: So how old were they?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, but they were old enough to accomplish the purpose that they were set out to do.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: All right, so really there's a there's a fun but two-part intriguing question to there.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: One is did they have a belly button?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, we don't know.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Physically, they didn't need a belly button because they didn't come from a womb.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: There was no umbilical cord.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: But also, you you took that and you went to a very intriguing question that I think people sometimes this will this will lean into next week when we talk about age of the earth stuff.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, were they created fully functioning adults?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: You're saying yes, or did they grow and the rest of creation, like were the all the vegetation start as seeds and it grew over time, or was it instantly a fully functioning adult producing tree?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: The quickest way to cause the entire animal kingdom to go extinct is to not have fully grown vegetation.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you have to start from seed and then grow before those plants get tall enough for animals to eat, they would all be dead.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Think about the giraffes.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: They need trees, man.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: I know they gotta get it.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: They need something that's a little higher up.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: That is an intriguing thing.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um I you and I, I think, tend to agree.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, maybe showing our carts here on the age of the earth conversation to come next week that everything was created in its fully adult form, um so that it could fulfill its purpose and immediately produce or reproduce according to its kind as commanded.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's correct.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're told within the in the within the chapter, chapter two, more gives us this information, but we get it.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Chapter one, too.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he tells them that all the things in the garden you can eat from.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: And if there's fruit, then you have to have a fruit tree, and I'll have a fruit tree.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: It has to be of enough age in order to actually produce fruit.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: So there are some things that have to be baked into the creation narrative in order for things to actually achieve the purpose with which they have been created.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um is it significant in your mind that based upon the text, God spoke and created the the lights, the waters, the fish, the animals?
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: He formed man out of dust, or he formed Eve out of a rib.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: So he he took something that he had already made.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Does you think that makes a difference?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it makes a difference in only in um the intimacy that God was involved with the creation of the Adam, the Adam and Eve.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um which may speak to where we end today's conversation.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is an important note.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: All the others he spoke and it did.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: There was God gave it, I think you mentioned this in the sermon the other day.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: God said something and the world obeyed.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: He said they it obeyed.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but when it came to humans, Adam, when God created humanity, Adam and Eve, he didn't just say, and then the earth obeyed, he got involved and became part of the process.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Which is very yeah, which is uh with emphasis, is gonna speak into where we end today's conversation.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but just for fun, because it really doesn't matter, yeah.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Let's circle back to the very first question.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to give a yes or no answer.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Did Adam and Eve have a belly button?
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, they did not have a belly button because this is my answer, because a belly button is a vestigial result of an umbilical cord.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's a leftover good word used today.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: It is a leftover thing.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it would uh uh an umbilical cord is a scar.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: So a belly button is a scar.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it is a byproduct of something going away, and if they never had it, then they wouldn't have the belly button.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Which I imagine when when they gave birth to Cain and Abel, and after the first few weeks, they're like, What is that?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Why didn't that get there?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, why does he have a little dimple in his belly?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't have a dimple in my belly.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: I can imagine Cain running around going, You don't have a dimple.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: All right, well, there are more serious things to come.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: And this is just a teaser of episode four of the High Dive podcast.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Excuse me.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's not episode four.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: We're on our way to 20.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're getting it.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: But this is our fourth in this series about Genesis.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm Ricky.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is Alan.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: We serve here at Calvary Baptist Church along with our incredible team and our amazing church family.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And this podcast is the ministry of our church, and we're just trying to carry forward in conversations uh that maybe we didn't have time to get into on Sunday.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: So uh this is week four of five through Genesis one.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: This past Sunday, we kind of looked, we zeroed in on the verses about God forming or creating humanity.
• 7:32
  unknown: Yeah.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's some interesting words that are used with intention that we want to lean into.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: So here's maybe the first one where I want to start.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, when we compare to God's activity in the other days, and God said, and God said, and God said, and it was so, and it was so, and it was so.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: We get to this day on six, there's like an intentional slowdown, yeah, and we get this interjection, and let us make man.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, haven't seen that yet.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: The test right.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: This is new, this is significant.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: So as meditation literature.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: Why is this about why this is different?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: So uh how do you react to that interjection?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Let us make men in our image.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: What is that significant for in your mind?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think there are there are two things that are important to to meditate on.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: One, the perspective of the original authors and the original listeners.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how would an ancient Hebrew culture coming out of Egypt, how might they hear that, and what might their imagination portray?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then secondly, because we have the fullness of revelation and we have experienced or seen the incarnate God in the form of Jesus, and we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, we have a a sort of retroactive view, which may give us a different perspective.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think those two things are important.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: So if I were to evaluate or to sort of just stay in the text, just in Genesis 1, and not try to go beyond.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I think the us would cause in the imagination of the listeners of the ancient Hebrew coming out of Egyptian culture.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think they would understand that or see that as God speaking to the host of heaven, God having a conversation in his throne room.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because we see this concept play out throughout the rest of Old Testament.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: We see them, we see it in Genesis 10, we see it in Genesis 11, we see it in Psalms, we see this concept of God in his throne room, in these spiritual beings in his court, and he is asking them questions and let us do these things.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think from the imagination of the of the of the author and the Hebrews standing at Mount Sinai hearing this maybe for the first time, um, I imagine they hear, let us do this, and their imagination goes, God is having a conversation with the host of heaven about making these different creatures, unlike all the others.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think there is a plurality there.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I think they now I look at it from a modern Christian lens, with Jesus being the focal point of everything we look at, and I look at that in a Trinitarian perspective that that we see that introduced in Genesis 1 and 2, God and the Spirit and the Word, which John sort of meditates on as he kind of starts John 1-1.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so I kind of look at it from that perspective and go, well, what we see here is God speaking within himself about doing something.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: So he says, Let us, and then the Elohim, God, that word Elohim is God, it's a plural, but then it when he creates, it's very it's very singular and God-made.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it went from a plural to a singular, the verbs go from plural to singular.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I think you can look at it from both perspectives.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you look at it from just what is Genesis 1 saying and what might ancient Hebrews understand, I think there they would likely understand it as God is speaking to the host of heaven.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Looking back through the lens of Jesus, I see it in a Trinitarian perspective, right?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: That God is speaking and making this conversation.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: He may be in the presence of the host of heaven, but this is God speaking to himself about what he himself is going to do.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I appreciate your response on that because this is the opportunity for honesty and maybe even a slightly apologist or apologetics point of view.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um for me, and I would argue most Protestants, this is obvious um early statement about the Trinity.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: We'll come back to that one a second.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: To your point, is also just be aware that there are people um who don't see it that way because there is there are some different perspectives on the host of heaven, the council of God.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh was that more than just God, whether that's the Trinitarian view or not?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um were there angels a part of this host?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Who was the whole council of heaven?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: And there are some intriguing other references in the Old Testament that make that a fun conversation.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think I would, you and I would agree.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think our statement of faith would certainly agree.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like the we go so far as to say like a non-negotiable for us is God three and one.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so that that is a consistent um description of a triune God.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I love the fact that it's arguably clearly represented from Genesis 1, 1, and 2.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: It is uh suggested again in this statement that we're drawing it, let us make man in our image.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think it's a beautiful I think the New Testament writers seem to reflect on it that perspective too.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now, growing up, our tradition growing up also held a third perspective, especially if you read the Schofield Bible, the King James, the Schofield King James Bible.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: 1611s.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, yeah.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that like when you were there another perspective played off of this idea of plural of majesty, God speaking in sort of third person.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Let us do this thing.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: And and that was a growing up, that was a prominent answer to this question.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Plural of majesty, plural of majesty.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't hear many people talking about that because that some of those ideals, even uh gap theory ideas, which we'll talk more about that next week.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Some of that was popular in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and is that it's gone out of favor because it didn't exist until like the 1500s.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't a concept that existed in ancient Hebrew and ancient biblical language.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a it was an it was something derived to explain what we're reading that has no historical context.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Rather than letting the text speaker.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than letting the text and scripture interpret itself.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I think first point, let us make man is uh, I would argue, clear, at a minimum's strong suggestion on the first page of the Bible of the triumph God.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Then he goes, he goes one step further, in our image.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a distinctive marker for humans as compared to the rest of creation.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: What is significant about humanity being an image bearer of God?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm gonna go and then come back.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm fine with that.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um if you go to a familiar passage in Exodus where God gives out these Ten Commandments, one of the Ten Commandments is don't make any idols.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Exodus 19, yes.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Don't make any idols.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it uses this this phrase in the in the it uses this idea of don't make any graven images.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same word.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um when God says let us make man in our image, what God is what God is communicating is I am creating something.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not suggesting I'm not saying that I I'm making something that looks like me out of a mirror, like, hey, there we are, we're standing side by side, they look like me.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: But it's something that carries God's some of God's character, some of God's nature.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we have a mind, we have, we have attributes of God.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: God is love, we can love.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, God is passionate, we have passion.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we have a conscience, we have a mind, we have the ability to interact.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: So when we talk about the image of God, the core fundamental difference between humans and animal kingdoms, even those that look like us, apes and chimpanzees, for example, is the distinguishing characteristic that we are bare the image of God, they do not.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that is that is not just about physical characteristics, it's significantly beyond that, into body, soul, mind, spirit, right?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we talk about bearing the image of God, we are the idols of God.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: So when God says don't make any other idols, graven images, because he's already made them and they're us.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And we are little creatures walking around on this planet that are designed to point people back to God and how we live and what we do and how we say.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so we are those ref, we are the we are the reflection of God on this earth.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: We bear his image, and so to violate that image is a violation of God's character and God's nature.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's why there's a lot of things that we talk about we shouldn't do or we shouldn't say or we shouldn't participate in within our bodies and within ourselves because we are image bearers of God.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: And in doing so, is a damaging of God's image.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's some interesting things, uh maybe using this as an opportunity to introduce some theological terms.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think there's there's two.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: One is introducing the idea of the what systematic theology would call the communicable attributes of God and the incommunicable attributes of God.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: The incommunicable attributes of God are those attributes of God that we do not share.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: They're only his God is eternal.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: He's on the example.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: He he knows all things, he can be everywhere at one time, he exists outside of space and time.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Those things baffle our mind.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: We try to explain them, but we just don't get it.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: These are God things, as compared to the communicable attributes of God, those traits that we share because we're made in his image.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you you said some of these, like uh love, peace, compassion, being able to show mercy, uh, being able to exercise justice.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so those are attributes of God that we can share because we're made in his image, and I'm just repeating what you already said, clearly differentiate us from the rest of the scientifically speaking animal kingdom.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um animals always operate on instinct or trained behavior, right?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Humans do not.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that on the one side, we've got this idea of understanding the attributes of God that we share because we're made in his image.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: The other interesting thing, and this may be an opportunity to have fun and and swing back to that Trinity thing.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, are you familiar with I know you are, um the dichotomy versus trichotomy?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: I am, yes.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so what tell us about that?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what do you think?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: So the prefix die is two, the prefix tri is three.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Man, this has been deep thoughts.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Deep deep thoughts without a few.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you said like, and you use like vestigial yeah, screw vocabulary.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: You're on it today.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm trying.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so the the idea of a dichotomy or trichotomy is related to the makeup of humanity.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a physical body, right?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's one aspect of I am.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then a dichotomist would say, I also have a spirit.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a I am made up of body and spirit.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the body is this physical thing, and the spirit is that spiritual thing.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that is what is you, that is what it composes a human.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: A trichotomist would say, Well, you're both body and your spirit, but you also have a soul.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so the tricotomist says body, soul, spirit, a dichotomist says body, spirit.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so the distinction is do we what is the difference between a spirit and a soul?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: Are there differences to them?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And why is that significant?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a I just want to, for any uh listeners out there that have never heard this before, this is informative.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Some who had it, this for some people becomes a divisive issue.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it doesn't have to be.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't need to be.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I would suggest there are um there are suggestive or even strong biblical references that would support either view.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: And here, I'm not smart enough to remember all these, so I'm just gonna share some of them.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so from the trichotomist view, um pulling these back up here.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: All right, um Matthew twenty-two thirty-seven.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's a three things.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um Thessalonians 5 23.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: May your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Again, that's suggesting a tri perspective.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um Hebrews 4.12, arguably some would say the strongest trichotomist verse.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, for the word of God is living and active, is sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing of the division of soul and spirit, so that soul and spirit can be separated of join and marrow and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think it does come somewhat, sometimes down to semantics, because there's also a lot of um supporting references to a dichotomous view, and I'll just go through some of them.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if I can get back to my list.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um Matthew 10, 20, body, soul, James 2, 26, body, spirit.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even even like Genesis 35, Ecclesiastes 12, uh, the soul separating from the body at death.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think there is one could use scripture to support either perspective, either perspective, which is why I put this in the category of this is not a hill to die on.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's an interesting conversation to have, some ways that it matters.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I made a reference in my sermon, I think it was week one, uh, and it was really a passing thing about the types of questions that people generally ask.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I made some passing reference to uh when I'm sitting with Awana kids and they're like, you know, will my dog be in heaven?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and do dogs go to heaven?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good question.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: According to the movie.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's true.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: All according to the movie, all dogs, all dogs go to heaven.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so here's my short answer to that.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I can't tell you your dog's gonna go to heaven.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, probably not.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's a strong biblical support to say that I know animals are in heaven.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: If a lion's gonna lay down with a lamb, I think there will be dogs in heaven.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Is it one dog that everybody gets to share?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: Or is there does everybody have a dog?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it matters.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the the Bible doesn't suggest and answer that question at all.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: And when we try to answer questions the Bible doesn't ask, we're probably getting off.
• 25:17
  unknown: Right.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I remember growing up, our pastor, Brother Daryl, he had a German shepherd dog, his name was Sheffi.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, I remember Sheffield.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Sheffy went everywhere.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: He'd get in our car.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: He would get in the car, he would show up at church.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like they lived just down the street.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: So Brother Darrell would walk to church and Sheffi would come up and he would he was always there.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: So he was like the church dog.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: If you open the door long enough, Sheffi was coming in.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember asking this question, Brother Darrell as a kid.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, Well, dogs go to heaven.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, I don't know about your dog, but Sheffi will be there.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, maybe Cheffy's in heaven.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the dog.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: No, uh we're getting off track.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, so uh I had a church member come up to me afterwards, and we it wasn't a debate, it was a fun discussion.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I I told her my opinion is that I don't think your dog's gonna be in heaven, but I do think dogs will be there.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: She said, No, I do think my dog will be in heaven because and she went on to explain, like, there is a, in her opinion, the the soul, spirit, emotion is one thing rather than two.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I tell you what, why don't why don't you spend a little time thinking through the difference between dichotomy and trichotomy?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and let's talk later.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, which we still have yet to do.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: I I say all of that to say I don't think this is an issue to be divisive over.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: I I personally lean toward the trichotomy view for two reasons.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: One, I think there are some pretty explicit scriptures that I just read, particularly the Thessalonians that list them out separately, and the Hebrews passage that clearly separates soul and spirit.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: The difference between the two, uh, and a lot of times these words get used interchangeably.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'm gonna use the word soul to define that part of me that lives forever in eternity in heaven or hell.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um the the spirit side of me is the emotive piece, yeah, the conscious piece, the intellectual piece, the emotive piece.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: And those are different things.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: Those, yeah, those are different.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um so but because we know that when when a person ceases to be, when they die, their body is dead, but there's something about them that lives forever.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so we have to we have to have a theological framework that accounts for that thing, and it has to be something that is different than the animal world.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: So because again, you could go to this argument, um, if if animals have a soul that need to be saved, then we need to be evangelizing them.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, because there's no other name under heaven whereby man gets saved.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so again, all of creation suffers because of sin and into the world.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there's some theological things to discuss or think through.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but again, it's the kind of thing that I can still fellowship and worship with you.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: But hey, here's the other reason, apart from those uh intriguing textual things that I see.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: The other part of the trichotomy view that I just really latch on to is going back to what we talked about first.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: It it is yet another way to demonstrate being an image barrier of God, God three in one, yes, and us in three parts in one.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I see your body, right?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: It is it is distinct.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: I um I believe your soul distinct and separate from your body, uh, and the salvation of your soul.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: I know your intellect and how you think and what makes you mad and what makes you joyful.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I know that emotive spirit side of you, all three different things.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I can't I can't take any one of them away and you still be you.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's true.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I I just think it is an example.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: And as with all examples of the Trinity, it it falls apart real quick.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you're if we're not careful, it becomes modalism and yes.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yes, uh it is a it is an illustrative component of yes.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm not trying to be walking around somewhere different for me as a different being.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, I think those things are are integrated conceptually.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and thank you for that reminder.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Always be aware.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Any illustration, uh, most every illustration about anything breaks down at some point.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Illustrations of any kind related to the Trinity always have the potential to get into heresy real carefully.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: Most of them, I don't know of any that doesn't, but yes.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Apart from the Trinity.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Fair.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, so I think I think where this conversation leads us, the text leads us specifically, yeah, is when we look at God's creation and why he created humanity, he breathes life into humanity, he empowers humanity, it it begins to open and unlock this key to understanding the partnership that God is engaging with his creation, specifically engaging with humanity as his image bearers to bring him glory.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: So talk through us about what you see in the text and why that's important.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in in chapter one, verse, you know, 26, 28, after he's created man in his own image and the image of God who created male and female, God says he blesses them, which is important.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Follow that word throughout Genesis 1 and 2 and 3.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then God says then be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it and have dominion.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then he says, over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the heavens, and everything.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: He basically has created this image bearer, placed him, this earth creature, and then he has told this earth creature, you are now blessed.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to be fruitful and multiply, fill the land, and I am giving you authority.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: Up until this point, the only creature with authority is God.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then on day four, he created the sun, moon, and stars and told them to rule over the day and night.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we have a little bit of authority delegated to them, but that's a very specific delegation of authority.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then you get to these earth creatures, these this being that God created in his own image, Adam.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: Adam.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: And God doesn't just tell them to have dominion over the small little piece of land, he gives them dominion over everything: land, air, sky, all of it.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that's important because what God has essentially done in that act of creation of humans and then giving them this authority is he has taken a bit of his authority and delegated it to us, to earth creatures.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, remember that thought.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: Can I interject with an unscripted question?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: I've never had this thought before, uh.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: So this may be dangerous to say while recording a podcast.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, God gave Adam, humanity, authority over creation.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: But he had already given authority to the sun and moon to rule the day and the night.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: That is correct.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: So he gave humanity authority over creation, but not that thing.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: That is correct.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: Which demonstrates the limitation of humanity that all of us are fighting against is the thing that we have no dominion over.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Time.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's time.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Time, day and night.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't have enough time.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: I ran out of time.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: Both in the day or in my life.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but you don't get a say in that.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have the authority in that.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have the authority over that.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: The Lord tells the sun when to rise and to the set.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: And the Lord has numbered your days.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good thought.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, it's just a thought.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't even get it out.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's a meditation thought literature.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm trying to practice meditation literature.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: So Yeah, because we're told we're told that God says to subdue and have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: So essentially, God has delegated authority to humans to rule and subdue everything on the earth, above the earth, and in the seas.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: So because of that, God has delegated that authority.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: God now operates in all of creation under that authority.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: He never takes it back from humans.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because what God has done here is God has chosen, knowing that page three is coming, God has chosen to create this world and then partner with humans to rule and reign.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: He has chosen to partner with humans.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: These earth creatures that he made, he gave them authority and said, now let's go do this together.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's important because God, as you read through the rest of Scripture, although God is omniscient, omnipotent, capable of doing whatever he wants to do, he never does things without human partners.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: When he begins to want to impact the world, he chooses Noah, right?
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: Noah, I'm going to partner with, I want to do, I'm going to destroy all of humanity because, well, Noah, you found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when God chooses to partner with a family, he partners with Abraham.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when God, when God wants to deliver his people from the land of Egypt, he could have just delivered them from the land of Egypt by cat bringing all of these things on the plague, these plagues on the people.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: All the Egyptians wake up dead and the Israelites just walk out.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like that's a possible way to do it, but God chose to partner with humans to do that with Moses, right?
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: God could have delivered the covenant, but God chose to do so in partnership with humans.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: All throughout the scriptures, God chooses to do his work in partnership with humans.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that is we get to the zenith, the pinnacle, the the highlight of the whole story when God chooses to bring redemption by partnering with humans, by becoming flesh and dwelling among us.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think the kernel of the incarnation is given to us in these verses that he is going to partner with humans to accomplish his mission.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: And even though Genesis 3 is coming and he knows it's coming at this point because he's God, he's omniscient, he's sovereign, he knows it's coming, but he still chooses to partner with humans anyway.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: And even after the fall, when humans are sinners separated from God, he still chooses to partner with humans because God has given humans dominion because they bear his image.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so today, you and I have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: God now dwells within us in partnership with us to bring the kingdom of heaven at hand.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that what is defined or laid out for us in these verses in Genesis 1, 28, 29 are not just about Adam.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: It is a it is an impact that God is going to bond himself to for all of humanity, for all of the world, for all of time.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: He bound himself to these creatures that he created, these human beings, and he bound himself to them in partnership.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: And no matter how bad the humans got, he still partnered with humans to accomplish his mission.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's important for many reasons.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: I want to engage with that on at least two perspectives, and we'll see where the conversation goes.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: First, I want to to give you a trigger Making Sense of Your World, Brown and Phillips, 1996.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: So from a from a worldview conversation, uh um this book, Making Sense of Your World, um, Gary Phillips, William Brown, John Stone Street.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: He's now on it now.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, first iterations in 1996, Stone Street came in 2000s, they did a second edition.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, categorically, they're going to um distinguish or differentiate different worldviews into three categories.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um The naturalist worldview is there is the earth and there is no God.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: The transcendental worldview is there is the earth and God is the earth.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: The theistic worldview is no, there is there is the earth and there is God.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: Within that theistic worldview, the distinguishing marker of Christianity is yes, there is the creation, and there is God, and God is actively involved in creation, and which is that picture of that partnership.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: The the other theist religions see God as outside interacting with it.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: The Christian worldview sees us God outside, but then becoming part of it.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I was trying to say, but you said it better.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that is that is one another layer to view that.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh additionally, maybe for those of you that are part of Calvary Baptist Church, I'm about to, if this were the wizard of oz, peel back the curtain strategically of kind of how we even strategically just make disciples at Calvary.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't come up with this, so anybody watching this outside of Calvary can borrow it.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, reach out to us, we'll tell you where we learned it.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: But it's the principle of invitation challenge.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the clearest easy way to see this is when Jesus calls his disciples and he's he's walking past the sea, he's beginning in his ministry, he sees uh Peter and Andrew fishing.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, come follow me.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: Invitation.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna make you fishers of men challenge.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we try to take that invitation challenge language.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: If somebody listens closely, like we every Sunday during the service, during the prayer time, I will usually say, Let me to invite you to join me in a time of prayer.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: We want this to be a house of prayer.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: I want to challenge you to pray this specific thing, but it's way more involved than that, like in how we're helping people move into biblical community in our church.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's built around these principles of invitation challenge.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh this is the first mention of that in the text, you know, or where, you know, God is God is creating humanity, inviting them into partnership, challenging them to exercise dominion and authority over the created world.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: It is it is a it is uh where's it at here?
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because he blesses them.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: God blesses them.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um God passes on to them not only um a call to live a particular way, have dominion and rule and reign, but he then passes a blessing onto them from him.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so there is an invitation to partner, and then the challenge is to do it in a way that is honoring to him.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sorry, go ahead.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's that's that's what I was saying.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: But even more so, going back to that um God is actively in and entering into the story.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we find so much encouragement and hope later as we read throughout the scripture where the Lord is with you, the Lord goes before you, Jesus gives the Great Commission, and I'm with you always to the very end of the age.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, even into the creation story, I'm gonna form you and I'm gonna breathe my spirit into you.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like I am I'm with you.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, your life, I am the source of your life, and I give it and I can take it away.
• 42:38
  unknown: Right.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Dad.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: Trauma sometimes.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I just think there's so much there's so much depth and beauty to what we're seeing in Genesis 1.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: God, it's it is way more than just believing that God created the world and believing that God created humanity.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: No, like when he did that, what he what he gifted us with and part and continues to partner us.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm I'm so grateful.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I try with discipline to even weave this into my routinely prayers.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm so grateful that God has invited us to participate in what he is doing.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because it is a it is a blessing, yeah.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's a partnership, right?
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something that we get to partner with the God of the universe to do daily to see his kingdom come, his will be done.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: And he does that through us, like he doesn't usurp that authority, override his authority or or demean our being to do the things that he's wanting to do, he uses humans where we are.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he equips us.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: He shapes us, he makes us, he forms us to be able to accomplish a thing that he's equipped us and wants us to do, and then partners with us to do it.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: Take my take it, we get to bear the yoke, and he walks that thing with us.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: So there should be a lot of a lot of comfort and grace in understanding that as we walk this life, we're not alone.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: We are in partnership with the God of the universe.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of times we get we we lose sight of the fact that God is our that we he has chosen to partner with us, and we think we're at this thing all by ourselves.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: And we may feel that way sometimes, and and it may look around and be like, well, there's nobody here to help me.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: But right.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think if we can if we can meditate on what it means to be in partnership with him, to have been given dominion and to subdue and authority over and to be blessed, to be fruitful and multiply, and what that means in terms of how we live out the gospel, um, he is not some God who is far away.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I think there's beauty in it.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's also a couple of pitfalls.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: You just identified one that uh I could I could be led to think um I'm all alone, and you just referenced that.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think I also could hear that and step into another pitfall that oh, we're partners, that means we're equal.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, no, no.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: That is not what this is at all suggesting.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: He is he is Yahweh, he is the creator and the sustainer of the universe.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh oh, oh, wretched man that I am.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh we're in awe of his goodness and his grace and his power and his uh his majesty.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: So this this partnership is like I'm grateful that he allows me to do it.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's something I want to then take with seriousness, with a spirit of stewardship, humility, humility.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh also, even I my my brain just immediately then went to the parable of the talents, yeah, as Jesus is speaking.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, in this partnership, like I'm blessing you, right?
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: I need you to grow it.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: I want you to use it.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't want you to just like hide it.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: Don't be underbush, yeah.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: I expect it to come back.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: There's this expectation of multiplying has more to do with just have babies.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no, whatever I've entrusted you, I want you to, for my name and for my glory, that's right, for the kingdom of heaven, multiply it, grow it, do something with it.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: If that's your business, if that's your family, if that's your ministry, that's why we like the word right here, multiply.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: We like the word multiply.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: We groups, we multiply groups, people we multiply, task, we multiply.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: I do have an answer to your question.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if this was on the agenda for the question today, but I'm gonna ask it and then we can see where time permits or goes.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, God says, Let us make man and man in our image.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: In the image of God, he created male and female.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: How do we correlate maleness and femaleness within the image of God?
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's a very good question.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think let's talk about it a little bit.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think we'll be able to pick this.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to map in my head the sermons coming forward.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um we can talk about this now.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: We'll be able to talk about it again.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: Then don't I don't want to I don't want to I don't want to spoil the rabbit.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, no, no.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: This is not spoiling anything.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think in three weeks we're gonna go down to the last three verses of Genesis 1 and really talk about uh it's really gonna be more about marriage, though.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and oneness in marriage.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it's similar, right, but it's not the same.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: So um what do you think?
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it's important to note that that God creates male and female, and that it is in their complementary, which you'll get to when you talk about marriage, um, it is in their complementary nature that we get the fullness of the image of God.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: It the image of God is a composition of maleness and femaleness, right?
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that that should have an impact on how we view males and females as opposed to some in our modern cultural understanding of males and females.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that the image of God is not limited to maleness, men, and it's not limited to females.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: There is something that God is doing mystically in a way that I don't understand completely.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: But to fully grasp the concepts of the depth of what it means to bear the image of God, we have to look at both of those two categories together.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why marriage becomes so important.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's why the union that he describes in these next few verses is so important.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's why the marriage relationship as described by the church is important.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think here's tying those concepts conceptually together.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: But it's important, I think, to hide to lean into this reality that there is goodness and nobleness and rightness in maleness, and there's goodness and nobleness and rightness in femaleness.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, especially in our culture, with this male maleness and femaleness is getting so distorted, I think that what's actually being distorted is the image of God, which is why I think it's such an important topic for Christians to have a grasp on.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Why is it important for men to be men and women to be women?
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: Why is it important for men to function where God has put them, women to function where God, like why?
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it goes back to this, because is it is a I think it is an expression of the image of God in our world when it is done well and when it is lived out rightly, and it is a distortion of the image of God when it is lived out poorly.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I and I would say uh just adding words saying the same thing.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: It is a distortion of the image of God, it is a distortion of God's design, uh, it is a distortion of the kingdom.
• 50:36
  unknown: Yeah.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it it weighs then on the responsibility that we have to steward well what he has given us.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: I I think there's a couple of nuances.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: This I man, that we could go so many ways with this.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're 51 minutes in now, but whatever.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: We intended this to be a long-form podcast.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's it'll be okay.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because people could pause it if they want to.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um there is a difference semantically, male and female, masculine feminine.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I think there is role and expectation for a male that is not automatically everything that culture attaches to masculinity.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: Does it make sense?
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, for example, every um every male functioning by God's design doesn't have to wear car hearts, carry a gun, and wear boots.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: That is true.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: Although modern culture may attach that to masculinity, right?
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: That is not necessarily biblical masculinity, nor is it automatically maleness.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the the same categorical examples could be used for females versus femininity and uh what culture, you know, uh a female doesn't have to wear bows in pink to be feminine.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: So uh that's a whole nother conversation for another day.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes in modern church we have confused, we've confused or distorted with good intention what masculinity or femininity is.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um that being said, I realize what I'm about to say is a stereotypical statement.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I because as soon as I say this, somebody says, Well, this way, I'm this way.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: I've been, I've been, I've been doing premarital counseling with couples for decades now.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: I've said this to every one of them, hundreds and hundreds of them.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: And every time they're saying, Yeah, you're right.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it comes different words that are used, but every woman at the end of the day needs one thing.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's security.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's what she needs.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's what she's craving.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: Am I safe?
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there are always exceptions.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: Generally speaking, she is naturally gonna be more of a nurturer than the man will be.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean a man can't nurture, but instinctively, more naturally, she's gonna be a nurturer.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we're going back to the image of God.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there are, especially in the Psalms and in the poetic books, there are images of God in this nurturing way.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_01: I wanna, I wanna hide you in the shadow of my wings.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: I wanna, I wanna comfort you.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: Come, come, come, uh, you know, you even see the the image of of Lazarus in the afternoon, just laying on Abram's bosom.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like there is there is just this nurturing attributes that are more naturally ascribed to that female side.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: You with me?
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you agree or disagree?
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, Jesus even makes that statement oh, Israel, would I not have gathered you like a hen to chicks?
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: That is part of his character and nature.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: All right, so on the masculine side, um instinctively, generally speaking, the male's first instinct is to protect, uh, which interestingly is a way to provide security.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: So we're starting to see that compliment.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean that a female can't possess that ability to protect.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: Prove case in point there is a cultural mama bear is a thing.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's right.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: So every woman has that ability to protect, just like every man has the ability to nurture.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: But that default mechanism, well, that also that default maleness speaks to the attributes of God that He protects, He provides, He He goes before us with a battle axe and He fights on our behalf.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so there are these attributes that more naturally we ascribe instinctively to male-female that make up the image of God.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that that's an important identity um when we see that God says, Let us make man in our image, He creates male and female that come together to fulfill that fullness of that image.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_01: As a complimentary helper.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which would be a great conversation in future episodes.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: It'll come.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, you know, we're 56 minutes in.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't this may be our longest podcast.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_01: I probably should know that, but I don't.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: Part of me wants to ramble for the next three minutes or four minutes just so we can hit the one hour mark.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but that may be overkill.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: We may lose our listeners.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: I've listened to podcasts that are four hours long.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: I have two.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm listening to one right now, but that's another conversation.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: That being said, thank you for sticking with us.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: If you've made it to the end, if you will let us know that, we need to give you a gold sticker as well.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: So when we get to our 20th episode, uh, we'll get a gold sticker for us.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_01: If you let us know that you made it all the way to the end, I don't know how we could prove that.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: We may have to look at your analytics that you didn't skip to the end, that you really watched the whole thing.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: We'll give you a gold sticker.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, in the meantime, don't forget, Hi Dob Podcast is a minister of Calvary Baptist Church in Columbus, Georgia.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: You can visit our website in the show notes.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: We'd love to hear uh hear from you if you have any feedback for us on how we can make this podcast better.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_01: We receive that.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: We want this to be as excellent as we can make it for God's glory and uh for the benefit of all of us as we grow and pursue Jesus more together.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_01: So until next time, have a great day.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.