Latest / Alternative Exit / Alternative Exit #73 | From "Dogs on Leads" to 100% Employee-Owned | Monica O'Malley
Transcript
- Andy Farquharson: Hello everybody and welcome back to the Alternative Exit brought to you by A Better Monday. I'm Andy Farkelson. So today I'm really excited for this guest. Hot off the heels of another founder who forged their own path to employee own ownership. We've brought you a new one. And someone who's who's done it like in in an Australia, even without without any sort of dedicated legislation to to support that transition. So yeah, this is an amazing story of sort of perseverance. And determination to be able to do that. But look, this didn't just start with our guests' journey into employee ownership. It started a lot earlier. So she started her career as a dental assistant, worked her way through to then sort of owning her first practice, opened another dental practice, and then just went through the journey and the mire to figure out how to actually go through and create employee ownership for her team and the communities. So everyone, I'd like you to welcome Monica Romale to the alternative exit. Monica: Thank you, Andy. Thank you for having me, and thank you for the opportunity to meet. It's always fantastic to speak about my journey and to encourage others to explore other avenues. It excites me. Yeah. Andy Farquharson: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, look, and and there's so much for us to unpack there. but I'd love it if if if you could just tell us a little bit more about I guess your your journey at your new dentist and drew you to thinking about employee ownership as the future. Monica: What a what a great question. And how I'd like to answer it in the first instance is by giving a dedication. Well, first of all, as you've as you've pointed out, 2026 marks my 36th year in the industry, starting out as an 18-year-old. And I've experienced dentistry in so many different contexts. So, we're talking public, private, community, corporate, academia, indigenous health, volunteer work. I've really expanded my perspective wide. And I want to time travel back. So this is my dedication for this interview today. Traveling back to 2012. about 40 years of age, and I'm working as an associate dentist in a private dental practice. Andy Farquharson: Mm-hmm. Monica: And I'd been working there for about four, maybe five years, and I approached the boss, the owner, and there was a really exciting continuing education seminar that was on offer, and I wanted to get him on board to pay for the team of dental assistants to come along, and we're going to have this, you know, great sort of day of seminars together. And so I approached him and he said, no Monica, I treat my staff like dogs on leads. I let the lead out, I let the lead out, I let the lead out. And every now and then I pull it back really hard just to remind them who the boss is. True story. Andy Farquharson: Wow. Monica: I I was speechless. You know, I'm 40. I you think you've heard it all, but when someone speaks to you like that, I remember I went out to my car in that lunch break and yeah, burst into tears. I'm just like Yeah. Andy Farquharson: Absolutely. Monica: So I'd like to dedicate this conversation to that dentist. And you know, Andy Farquharson: Yes. Monica: there are there are so many great people in dentistry and in business, etc. But unfortunately, yes. My biggest motivation is to make sure that I do not replicate in any way, shape, or form some of the workplaces that I've exited that have been mired in hierarchy, bureaucracy, adversarial politics, dictatorships. And you know, this is my legacy going forward. So yeah, there I am. Andy Farquharson: That's awesome. Monica, I absolutely A it sucks that you had to go through that and that everyone who worked under that dentist had to go through that. But I think we what what we see with the sort of pioneers who are going into this space, they're doing it because they want to create a better way. that they're Monica: Yeah. That's right. Andy Farquharson: doing it but not only for to create a better work environment, but also like do do better things for the for the for the community and the people that they work with. So yeah, it it's great that it really lit a fire for you. Monica: for sure. I think what we all have to have the smack across the face every now and then from life, don't we? Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: Yeah, it's it's just part of the journey. Yeah, Andy Farquharson: Yeah, absolutely. a lot of people do come into employee ownership. A lot of it like especially sort of in the US where it's much more established in the UK, they come in and they're just seeing it very much for this is this amazing sort of a way that you can bring together both sort of like commerce, like and economics, like Monica: Yes. Andy Farquharson: good and democracy. You can bring it all together for this magic magic tool, but in a place like S in Australia where you are, where there is no legislation, there is no really Monica: Mm. Andy Farquharson: big existing community, you really needed a fire to go and chart your own way. Monica: Absolutely, absolutely. And look, dentistry is a tough space from the get-go. Okay, so we are not well known, let's say, for being, I don't know, I don't know how to describe this because I'd consider myself to be a very compassionate practitioner. but look, unfortunately, there's a lot of trauma around dentistry, there's a lot of cynicism around dentistry, there's a lack of public trust, and rightly so. I mean, I've heard some real horror stories out there. I guess what I'm what I'm trying to say there is we're we're in dentistry already up against it. Running a business, a commercially successful business based in ethics, we're already up against it. It's already a very, very challenging space to be in. and that's the fire, you Andy Farquharson: Uh-huh. Monica: know, because it's already tough for us. And for Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: me, this just speaks volumes. And again, I guess my my main thing is around the philosophical sides of running a conscious business. I consider myself to be a conscious capitalist. Okay, we love the money, I want the money, and we're gonna do great things with it. It's about not, it's not not about earning money. but bringing bringing together that contribution, the collaborative mindset, teaching people autonomy, freedom. In dentistry, mental health is a big deal. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. A amongst amongst the the people working, yeah. Monica: Yeah, yeah. I mean there's so much we could speak about in terms of why I'm so passionate about this. And I guess to sort of circle back around to your c to your comment, why I was prepared to take a risk, even though the legislative side of things in Sydney in Australia right now is actually, you know, it's not keeping pace with the rest of the world. But I just thought, no, someone needs to start somewhere. So Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: I was pr I was prepared to take that risk. Andy Farquharson: I love it. I love it. We'll we'll get more into that journey, but I'd love it if Monica: Yep. Yep. Andy Farquharson: you can get just lay the land for for for us. Like where where are your dental practices, how many people working them, like if you just help us understand. Monica: Sure. So we have I opened the the business, it's called Yawn Your Dentist in 2015. Very traditional, hierarchical model. I'm the founder, etc. I restructured in 2023 after many, many, many years. I guess many years of research from about 2016 onwards. I've probably got to the end of my first year of traditional operation and went, there's gotta be a better way. So between probably 2016 and 2023, I did lots and lots of research, and that's when we restructured. We currently have two practices, one in a place called Murraybach, which is in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne, and in a small country town called Yay, which is around about what's that, about an hour and a half out of the city centre. So Muralbach is very much a suburban practice. We have probably five or six other practices in our kind of near vicinity so it's a reasonably saturated space. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: Whereas in Yale it's a small country town so we have a a wide geographical area that we service and we are the only dental practice in town. If people if we weren't there people have to travel long distances to get even basic care. We currently employ collectively there are let me see 10 people in the business across two sites. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Across both practices. Yeah. Okay. Monica: Yeah. I spend my time half of the week in one practice and half of the week in the other practice. Andy Farquharson: Nice. Monica: We we don't have any middle management. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: It's just part of our our business, part of my business again passion to minimize hierarchy and minimise bureaucracy. So in a lot of traditional setups that I was, you know, party to, there'd be the bosses at the top of the heap, there'd be the team at the bottom. And there's middle management having to deal with all the squabbles and all of the bureaucracy in between. I take my inspiration from the Bertsorg model in the Netherlands, and I actively encourage Andy Farquharson: Love those guys. Yeah. Monica: self-management, self-managed team. So I visited Bertsorg. I went over to the Netherlands and visited with Jos and the team. Yeah. and so I got to see firsthand how that works. And so I'm very much all about teaching people autonomy, agency, self-management. and minimal bureaucracy. So we don't pay for the middle management part of it. Andy Farquharson: This is this is one of my favorite topics in in employee ownership, and it's one of the most least discussed topics Monica: huh. Andy Farquharson: I found I find across across the whole space. there's a lot that needs to be done to educate people about the separation between ownership. Monica: Yes. Andy Farquharson: And then and and it's like to forget traditional financing to be able to make these transitions, banks and everyone needs to understand that there's a really Monica: Mm-hmm. Andy Farquharson: big difference between ownership and management. but I think but there there also is that little amazing element of of what you can do and empower people when they have a sense of ownership. I mean, Monica: Yeah. Andy Farquharson: Bert Bertzog's demonstrated that you don't need real ownership to be able to do that, because Monica: Mm. Mm-hmm. Andy Farquharson: it's I mean ownership is still held very tight. and and so you don't need to have an ownership to have a great a great management culture. But I think bringing these two together in terms of that sort of our self-management and Monica: Yeah. Andy Farquharson: independence and autonomy just works so well in a shared ownership environment as well. Monica: Hundred percent. what my team hear me talk about all the time is I don't do infantilisation Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: and I don't do exploitation. and that requires a different level of maturity, accountability, self-awareness, but these are all great things to foster and cultivate at work. And then you take those skills out into your life and hey presto, life generally, you know, you're gonna be a better person all round. You know, we spend so much time at work. Why Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: wouldn't you want work to make your life better? Sometimes. Yeah. Andy Farquharson: Doesn't that make for more frustrated people when they get back out in the world and they start getting treated like they get ventilised or so? Monica: Yes, yes, yeah. But I I guess this is, you know, the great awakening for want of a better word. I think the generations coming forward now, though, they do want autonomy. They want Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: mobility, they want freedom, they want, they want to say, the newer generations coming through, I don't think we're are are going to have the patience or the interest in hierarchical or bureaucratic workplaces. Yeah. Andy Farquharson: look, absolutely. I and I think I guess the part that I see, like the a lot of the sort of the data that comes through, out the likes of the hires, Monica: Yep. Andy Farquharson: the the the morning stars over in the over in the US, like the these sort of pinnacles and bastions of these self managed organizations, like is like that these businesses not only have better financial performance, but happier people. like and everyone's Monica: Yes. That's it. Andy Farquharson: And and and when you combine that with the ownership, which you've done, Monica: Yes. Andy Farquharson: it it's it's it's a huge superpower. Monica: Yeah, for sure. I was reading in on this weekend's paper. There were two articles that struck me in this weekend's Good Week Weekend Australian. A manufacturing Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: company in the US, Gund, G-U-N-D. Andy Farquharson: Okay, don't know that. Monica: Multi-generational. They're now into their third generation of the same family owning this manufacturing plant. And their growth is just year on year. They do profit sharing. So not strictly, they don't speak that employee ownership dialogue, but Very much the collaboration, the agency, the all of these key aspects, I guess, of I'm just going to keep saying a more conscious business. So there's a great article about that. And then there was another article around it was a workplace survey about mental health. And in this particular survey, 65% of respondents said that they would take a pay cut if their job was healthier for their mental health. So we're already starting to see that change where again I I speak a lot around, yes, product finances are critical. But if we're only ever using that as the metric of success, there's so much else that's pa potentially being missed in people's health and well being. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: Yeah. Andy Farquharson: love it. So let's wind the clock back a little bit. you've got twenty twenty fifteen, you've you've gone through, you've you've founded you've founded your first practice. but then in twenty six, like you've come out of that first year and you've you've Monica: Shop, yes. Andy Farquharson: said that like like you wanted to do it differently. I mean what was Monica: Yes. Andy Farquharson: and and that's when you sort of started that journey of learning? And and w Monica: Mm-hmm. Andy Farquharson: was that was that around the structure of ownership? Was that around Monica: Mm. Andy Farquharson: sort of a more self-managed organization? What was the what was the realisation or what made you think I need to do this differently? Monica: I think the the first thing I really didn't want to be it's tiring running a business where you're because you're the founder and you've got so much invested in it, you're the only one who has such high levels of motivation, right? And you're having to Andy Farquharson: This rate. Monica: and you're having to drag people along behind you Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: to get them to be just as passionate. That was exhausting. And I read a book By Frederick Lalot called Reinventing Organizations. Have you seen that one? Yeah. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. I love that book. Yeah. Monica: Great. And that's where I found Buzz Org. And that was Andy Farquharson: Yeah, okay. Monica: like, yeah. And then I read Small is Beautiful. Have you read that one? That's by E. F. Schumacher. And that's Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: all about decentralization and how small groups can actually affect great change. I wanted, I guess, to create a business where we're all equally vocationally passionate about. Product and the service that we offer. And it doesn't matter what level in the business you are. And I also saw a great opportunity essentially for the empowerment of women in business. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: Dentistry in Australia is 88% female. Okay, so dentists, dental therapists, dental hygienists, oral health therapists, dental assistants, receptionists, admin staff. eighty-eight percent women. So if every woman in dentistry didn't show up to work again next month, next Tuesday, next Wednesday morning after the Mobile Cup log weekend, there is no dentistry. And I I yeah, yeah, Andy Farquharson: No idea it was that high. that's huge. Monica: yeah. And for me, women speak a different language when it comes to collaboration and decision making. Andy Farquharson: Mm-hmm. Monica: And we women need flexibility in in their work arrangements and so forth. So I just saw an opportunity to say, hang on. this industry is evolving and changing, and we're not keeping up. The traditional model of business, I think, is it's it's rapidly becoming out of date. So that was that was kind of the key turning point. I want everyone to be just as passionate as me. So I don't have to drag you along behind me because that's exhausting. And it's Andy Farquharson: I love that. Monica: and it's kind of sad because why would you want to just I why would you just want to turn up to this job every day to kind of do a job that you kind of don't really like, to make money for someone who you don't really like? that that just that that's a grind. Why would you want to run a business that way? Andy Farquharson: It's a crime. But can the the most common thing I get challenged with when I talk in my sort of day job is that employees don't want this. They don't want the additional responsibility. They won't want to be thinking like owners. They want to be able to clock off at the end of the day. I mean surely you would have heard that. Monica: Yep. I think I think absolutely and I think there are some that don't. And that's great. Okay. However, my mission is everyone gets an opportunity. But it's your choice whether you take it. Andy Farquharson: taking it in your business? Monica: it it's been a great look, it has in a lot of respects achieved its goal, which I just spoke about was it is a bit of a filtering device. you're gonna find out who's vocationally passionate. You're gonna find out who's really in this because it sets them on fire and they really love their work. You are going to find that out. And it's a great filtering device. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. I love that. Monica: Be prepared for your business to get smaller before it gets bigger. And it's the breakdown before the breakthrough. Andy Farquharson: And when you talk about that, was that more cause the this journey towards employee ownership, that obviously didn't happen a little bit later, but you had that whole transition towards self management, which probably is the part that started earlier. So when you talk about be prepared to get small and break it down, was that around sort of transforming to this more inclusive and engaged workplace? Monica: Yes. Yeah. And look, COVID happened in the middle as well, the pandemic. That through a massive what Andy Farquharson: Victoria Monica: what part of work that didn't touch, I don't know. But again, paradoxically, it made me even more passionate because I could see how volatile the market was generally. And how dentistry needs to keep up. We we wanna build resilience, agility, we want those con and this is what employee ownership I see is working for so many other businesses. And it's like on the back end it's like our post pandemic recovery plan. We're gonna we're actually going to restructure the business. Yep. Andy Farquharson: Love it. So we we've talked a little bit about that transition towards self-management, and you you're inspired by Lulu's reinventing organizations. Lulu Monica: Yeah. Andy Farquharson: doesn't talk about ownership, right? in in that book. So so what Monica: No, no, no. Andy Farquharson: inspired that journey towards the the employee ownership and and and part of the orchard? Monica: look, wealth distribution is a big thing for me. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: gender-based wealth inequality, big thing for me. Using business as a vehicle for social justice initiatives. I come from a working class background. I I didn't enter dentistry via the I guess more traditional roots of you know an exclusive elite school, yada yada. I'm one of eight kids. I was born in the western suburbs of Sydney. I wouldn't have even considered myself to be academically particularly clever when I was at school. but I also saw so again, when we talk about ownership for me, it still has its foundations in education, you Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: know, awareness. And for me that's that again speaks volumes about the empowerment piece. But look, wealth distribution. Again, I was reading an article on the weekend where the the author was talking about Thomas Hobbes, the English philosopher. In the 17th century, and he was lamenting the impacts of unequal wealth distribution in the 17th century. there is no shortage of authors, commentators, and philosophers who haven't been talking about this for hundreds of years. The the very top of the heap has all this concentrated wealth, and look at this great mass of people underneath that could be benefiting from it. So wealth Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: redistribution. Andy Farquharson: Yeah, I love that. Well I think it's Monica: Yeah. Andy Farquharson: the the the the sort of cacophony noise about sort of talking about this probably goes in the peaks and troughs. It goes to the sort of the the distance between that g wealth disparity, which we're heading into a really, really sort of area of hyper concentrated wealth at the moment. It's a bit scary. Monica: It's eye water it's eye watering to actually I don't think we can even conceive of the numbers. I read recently in the US, I think the top, what is it, three percent of the population have what fifty five trillion dollars of wealth, which is twenty six times more you can't even you can't even get your brain around it. We Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: just think of how much so again, if we think from the health space as a practitioner. my job fundamentally is to make a contribution to the cessation or at least the limitation of human suffering. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: Okay, so that's great. That's my business service offering. Why wouldn't I then be translating that out to my team or the team? Andy Farquharson: Okay. Monica: They're not my team. I don't own anyone. yeah. Andy Farquharson: Love Okay. So Monegan, let's let's let's go a little bit more into like the the details of this ownership transition that you made. So you're obviously you're based in Australia. There is Monica: Yep. Yep. Andy Farquharson: the there is a sort of node-defined legislature which you can leverage to to drive employee ownership, like there is in the US, UK, Canada, Slovenia, Denmark. but there is an existing structures that you can use. Like there and there's multiples, there's obviously the Monica: Yep. Yep. Andy Farquharson: the trust law. There's cooperative Monica: Yep. Andy Farquharson: law as well, I that that you could potentially use. what was the journey towards selecting the trusts and and and did you did you look at other models? Monica: Yeah, so look, on my business journey, I was approached by a corporate very early on. They wanted to actually buy up a chunk of the business. And I I'm vehemently anti corporate when it comes to general life, but health in particular. I don't think your health should be managed by accountants that are driven by KPIs. So corporate healthcare, that was an absolute no. I was then invited to perhaps franchise and I'm like, yeah, no, Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: that still didn't sit well with me either. the EOT model in particular, what I love about it is is the fact that it is non-allocated, so there's no buy-in, you know, people don't have to have a certain amount of equity to get in. So you don't you as a person don't need to finance and borrow money to buy shares. It's phenomenal. It opens again, opens the floor so that everyone gets an opportunity. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: so traditional share schemes, when you've got the shares and you need to buy and sell them and all those transitions, that costs a lot of money and legal fees, the administravia that's associated with that. Andy Farquharson: Massive. Monica: that's that was not attractive to me. So when I saw this model, I said, hang on, so we can bypass all of that. That was very attractive. The fact Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: again that the legislative change in Australia is slow, again, I'm just prepared to wear that for now. Andy Farquharson: Mm-hmm. Monica: I think this is such a worthwhile way of doing business that it's we need to just be prepared to take those risks. Andy Farquharson: When you say wear that to, I talk me through what what that means to you. I I'm seeing like there's an administrative overhead and legal fees in in terms of establishing sharding bees. Is that sort of what you mean? Monica: Yes. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. But as with the EOT, as opposed to a traditional, you know, share scheme, so buying in buying buying shares and and trans share transfer of ownership and so forth. Of course, there's there was always going to be set up fees. I've got a brilliant accountant, I've got a brilliant legal team who again were prepared to take the risk with me. Andy Farquharson: Nice. Monica: Because in the space in Australia, you're very much a pioneer. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Okay. Monica: Yeah. I live I live out in the mountains outside the Yarrow Valley. So I drive through the Yarrow Valley a lot. And I actually thought about this this morning and you look out amongst all the vines and you think, you know, those first people who came here to this empty valley and planted vines, n needless to say, people would have been looking at them going, They're lunatics, what the hell are they doing? You know, often, you know, there were migrants coming from other countries, etc. And I just look at those vines and I think, yep, and here we are. Here Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: we are, harvesting the benefits of the fact that these people were prepared to take a risk. Be prepared to be misunderstood. Be prepared to be thought of as a lunatic at a fringe dweller, because you can actually see the greater vision on the horizon. Andy Farquharson: It's an awesome awesome visualization of persistence, like and and charting that path. And I said we we everyone needs these stories like in in Monica: Yes, yes, yes. Andy Farquharson: new markets, like to be able to create that vision of what could look like. so you talk about Monica: Yeah. Andy Farquharson: the the EOT and you talked about a key part of how this transitions, how you sell it to the trust, Monica: Yep. Andy Farquharson: did you sort of fund that transition to the trust in terms of a seller note or vendor note? Like how what did that look like? Monica: So I've I've basically got a share a buyback scheme, so I'm buying the the business back off myself. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. And Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Monica: and we're transitioning that over incremental payments over the next Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: five to seven years. Andy Farquharson: Okay. So and did you did you have a a time frame a time frame on that or a set amount of profit that's gonna be allocated towards your buybacks or it's all pretty fluid that you're working with trust? Monica: It's all very fluid. It's all very fluid. Again, because no one's ever done this before. Yeah. Well, not no one's ever Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Well see and and Monica: done this before, but we're very much working in a new space. And even the team Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: that I'm working with, we're all kinda like, we're feeling this out. How does this look? yeah. Andy Farquharson: Well, I think it's great to be able to have that flexibility. And I this is I guess one of the challenges that we see with employee ownership as we're facing this huge sort of transition over potential of businesses that need a new owner, is that a lot of these transitions like what you've experienced r reliant on the benevolence of the owner. the like like that's we're reliant on you to go do all that effort, all that admin, educate your advisors, relying on you Monica: Yes. Andy Farquharson: to fund this out of your back pocket effectively. Like forgo Monica: Yes, effectively, yes. Andy Farquharson: that. forego that corp big corporate exit, forego that franchising opportunity, forego the cash today so you can get Monica: Yes. Andy Farquharson: that out in the future. So I it's amazing, like I said, it's so great that you're you are going and charting this path. but it's a difficulty and it probably creates a big barrier for people. Monica: Yes. Yep, I I completely agree and I understand. Yeah. Andy Farquharson: Okay. So when you think about an EOT is the way that we're gonna run this indirect ownership model, which is gonna be super exciting Monica: Yeah. Andy Farquharson: for our team, everyone's gonna do that, how did you tell your team? Monica: How did I tell my team? Yeah, true, Andy Farquharson: 'Cause it was your team at the time. Monica: true, true. it's interesting. I think the conversation started in about 2017. So Andy Farquharson: Yeah, okay. So very early. Monica: very early. and just speaking it in conceptual terms, just This is the way I'm seeing things, this is the way the world's going. So just constant education and always keeping it on the horizon. Andy Farquharson: Mm-hmm. Monica: In terms of the actual, when D-Day came in 2023, I guess one of my biggest documents I've released to the to the crew is the 10-year strategic plan. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: And that really speaks volumes around the vision. what it is we're trying to achieve. so that they've got a clear, I guess, a clear guide as to whether or not they want to be part of it. Yeah. So I think, yeah, for people contemplating this, you again, as you've just described, like you have to get very clear in yourself what direct you're you're the captain of the ship. Yeah. So I did produce a a ten year strategic document as by way of communication and and on we go. We take one step at a time. Andy Farquharson: I guess sometimes i it can be tough. Like until about twenty seventeen you start talking about I'm sure a lot of these people have already come from the dental like industry. they've seen they've Monica: Yes, yep. Andy Farquharson: been a part of these different practices. What do you think was key to to helping them sort of believe that this isn't just another owner who's just talking about some future vision that's never going to come to reality? Monica: Yeah, I guess that's that's the key piece about trust, rebuilding trust. And Bertzog taught me that as well. unfortunately, in the general scheme of things, we are culturally conditioned to believe the boss is a big, bad, nasty person. Yeah, because we've all been burnt by the boss who is a big, bad, nasty person. That's it. That's it. Andy Farquharson: Well, when they pull on that leash, yeah. Monica: it's look, it is constantly keeping the conversation alive. and constantly following through. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: And being patient with the crew because they're having to unlearn a lot of their programming. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: You know, I've been, I guess, on the intellectual journey of going through what I've been through, and I've read the books and I've listened to the podcast. They're not necessarily going to engage at that level. So being patient while they catch up with you. And that does take time. Andy Farquharson: Okay. Patience. Monica: Patience Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: and rebuilding trust, which is not unlike Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: what you know what we learn as dental practitioners. So many people have been burnt by dentistry when they were younger. Okay, so that the subconscious program they have is unfortunately quite negative. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: And as a dental practitioner, to be successful, you need to be patient and build relationships which takes time, and this is no different. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Strong parallels at multiple points of this story between between the Monica: It's good. Andy Farquharson: the actual work and the transitions. Monica: Yeah, so look, dentistry, to be honest, the the longer I've been practicing dentistry, it's about 60% psychology and it's about 40% technical skills. You inadvertently Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: become a fear and trauma specialist. Which is great. Andy Farquharson: understand why. I remember I still remember my dentist, my my dentist's nickname was the butcher of Blackburn. Monica: Yay! But you do you do become if again if you choose to and if you choose to engage in in self-education and and things like that, you choose to come to you come to understand how humans behave and it does take time and everyone's Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: at a different level with where they're going to be engaging at. But I don't want to exclude anyone from the team. We might have people that are academically incredibly, you know, successful and all of that, and we put other people who left school in year 10 and don't really have any extra qualifications. Doesn't matter. There's a place Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: for everybody. Andy Farquharson: there's people at different levels of engagement, education, like interest. Monica: Yes. Yes. Andy Farquharson: So obviously a big part of ownership is understanding what is the value of ownership? what is your personal individual contribution margin, right? What is it when you come to work each day, how do you contribute? How do you go about educating people around the finances of business? how what is the what is the asset that they're gonna have ownership there at at your new dentist? Monica: Yeah, so that's a good that's a great question, and it is evolving. So Andy Farquharson: Mm-hmm. Monica: we talk about financial transparency and and we dabble in that and we're still working on it. We're still working on what is what are the figures that are going to be meaningful that we can share broadly that are going to make an impact. So we're learning as we go on that. when it comes to contribution, I'm Consistently encouraging people to look at the job is more than the financial metrics. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: Yeah. it's learning those higher level skills again of you know, even well, if you talk about women and financial independence, most women are out there running a budget, the family home, doing all that stuff. Okay. However, when it comes to women in the workforce, you know, their their career trajectory is often interrupted. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: Yeah, so they don't have the same level of super as their male counterparts. Andy Farquharson: Mm-hmm. Monica: they come in and out of maternity to leave, things like that. And I encourage them around: you could, through employee ownership and profit sharing, you could stand to actually be able to bolster your levels of financial independence. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: Yeah. So again, there's that social justice piece. Andy Farquharson: I love it. so we're talking a little bit o about ownership there. So there's a there's the like the that when people talk about the the UK's version of EOT, like as something that like they're they're they're naked in and naked out. I. They don't have to pay anything to get in, but when they leave the business they they get profit share when they're in the business, but when they leave, they don't actually have Monica: Yes. I really like that. I haven't heard it expressed that way before, but that's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Andy Farquharson: Naked in, naked out. They'll talk about a lot of the UK. but that's but but so but they could they're a part of creating this asset. They're they're they're generating Monica: Yes. Andy Farquharson: sort of equity value as they're going Monica: Yes. Andy Farquharson: through this process of of building the company, but then they don't get access to that. when that when they leave the business. How does it work in the Australia, in the model that you have charted with your with your advisors? Monica: Yes. It's it's exactly the same. Andy Farquharson: Okay. Monica: Yep. So great point. One of the thing that bothers me around traditional share schemes is when you have that secondary market. So you've got people toiling away in the business, but you've got external shareholders playing golf. Getting a little bit Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: of they're always like playing golf. But you get the message. So I love the fact in this EOT model we do not have a secondary market. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: The people in the business are generating the profits, they're getting the rewards that let you know, and there's no invisible third party having a skimming a bit off the Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: top. Andy Farquharson: That direct ownership, I I I share those same challenges around the that direct ownership model because ultimately it always ends up in a coalescing of equity towards those sort of people who are more interested and engage in it rather than having Monica: Yes. Andy Farquharson: a fair distribution. Monica: Yep. Andy Farquharson: did you look at the ESOP model in Australia? Monica: Not a huge amount because the eSop model again, I guess I was turned off by the share, buy in, buy out. Yeah, the traditional share schemes. Yeah. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Yeah, I guess it in the US, it there it is an indirect ownership model, in in in that essence, but I I think most of the ways we're seeing it applied in Australia or the ones I've seen anyway, and hopefully some listeners can correct us, is it it's Monica: Mm. Andy Farquharson: still very much in a a very small, minute share of ownership. Like it's still sort of a less than seven percent of ownership of the company is held with that sort of collective piece. so yeah, Monica: Yeah. Andy Farquharson: I I love the idea of like w what you've c the model that you've created. I got the kiss. Monica: Yeah, well, I've gone all in, I've gone a hundred percent. Yeah. Andy Farquharson: Nice. Well I think yeah, they tr it's a transform finance over in the over in the States, I and ownership capital labs, they talk about thirty percent as the minimum viable, as the minimum ownership to be held by the employees by the employee vehicle to be an employee owned organization. I strongly believe in the In the actual if you distribute it fully, it's gonna just solve not many more problems for the people that work there, better for the business and better for the communities. Monica: Well, I think too for me, I did think about this when I was posed with how much are you gonna give over? And I thought, well, I think I'd be being disingenuous to the mission if I didn't Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: go a hundred percent. Otherwise you're kinda hedging your bets and it's almost like how am I gonna build trust if I'm not actually prepared to take that risk? Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: it has to be a reciprocal arrangement. So I just went, No, it's we're gonna go all in. Andy Farquharson: how do you think about sort of the the the the people's like the value of their percentage of proportion of ownership within the business? Does that 'cause I'm I'm sure you've got people who are in and out of the like who are working full time, some maybe come back down to part time, Monica: Yep. Andy Farquharson: as sort of life. How do you think about that on an annual basis? Monica: Yeah, so again, West that is still very much evolving for exactly Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: these reasons because we do again, it's a it's an all female business. There are there are levels of movement in and out, and we want to be able to accommodate things like that. So we're still working, it's a work in progress. Andy Farquharson: Mm-hmm. Monica: we don't have traditional sit-down and have performance appraisals one-to-one because that you know that just perpetuates the headmaster student aesthetic. You know, you've been a good little girl or a naughty little girl and all the things. So instead, we we're experimenting at the moment with a round table kind of scenario. Where each person Andy Farquharson: Well but Monica: comes and brings their little portfolio of evidence. This is what I've been doing this quarter. And it's open and it's transparent. And there's optionality in it. So I say to the busy working mums in my crew, you know what, this quarter, if you don't have a lot of capacity to add any extra, that's fine. You even coming to that meeting, you're going to get some profit share because you even attended the meeting. If Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: you go that little bit further that quarter and you do something extra, present it to the team, fantastic. And we're we're working with an equation. So even just by showing up to the meeting, they're getting recognition. Because women do need, they need that flexibility. Andy Farquharson: Yep. Monica: And I I'm not here to punish women because they still want to have a life and and do these other things. And remembering, unfortunately, women still bear the brunt of the unpaid labour outside work. Yep. Andy Farquharson: Yep. Yep. Well it yeah, like I the that's the gender reality. I I think Monica: Yep. Yeah. Andy Farquharson: but it's also I I I think that's just a really human response to the realities that what you want when you need the humans to show up at work, you need to betreat them as humans in that sense. Monica: Yep. Exactly right. So th there's flexibility and optionality. It's like this quarter you didn't you didn't have capacity to do very much. That's cool. You're still part of the team. And you still get recognized. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica, we could keep talking for days on the there's a lot of amazing Monica: Yeah. Andy Farquharson: topics that we've covered and and things that are near and dear to my heart, so what I like to do is at the end of at the end of sort of every podcast, I ask people a fast round of three questions and just offer a quick response. How does that sound for you? Okay, Monica: Well, give it a go. Andy Farquharson: so who is the leader that you most admire in employee ownership? Monica: Graham Nuttle Andy Farquharson: Love it. Yeah. Very good. So yeah, Graham Graham's obviously was one of the leaders of the the UK movement. Monica: But can I just do a general shout out to Employee Ownership Australia and Alan Gregg, 'cause he's been a phenomenal support. but everyone at Employee Ownership Australia, I've n I've never I I've always been supported. I have so much information at my fingertips and yeah. Andy Farquharson: That's very good. Great show now. Well then Monica: Yeah. Andy Farquharson: that might be a curtail to the next question, but is what is your favorite resource on employee ownership? Monica: My favourite resource, Alan Grieg. Andy Farquharson: Ha ha ha. Monica: He's fantastic. He's phenomenal. Are you gonna have him as Andy Farquharson: Yeah, agree. Monica: a guest? Andy Farquharson: Well, we've I I I I email Alan regularly. we're working to get some repres some EOA representation on the pod as well because I think it's it's a great time to to talk about that story. Monica: he's such a wealth of information and he's got such a broad view globally. Brilliant. Andy Farquharson: Totally. Monica: Yeah. Andy Farquharson: Very good. Okay. And then lastly, what would you say to a business owner who's sitting on the fence regarding a transition to an EO model? Monica: Mm. Great question. Are you ready to let go of some of the control? Are you ready to have your leadership tested? And are you ready to make a contribution basically to the betterment of humanity? Andy Farquharson: I love it. Very cool. Monica: You only need to be a you only need to be a tiny drop in the ocean, but as we know, the ocean's full of tiny drops. Andy Farquharson: It is. It is full of tiny drops and and also like it may be a contribution to humanity, but I think also this what we're seeing is that this may also be the only option for many people to be able to exit their business do Monica: Yep. Andy Farquharson: like the only way they can actually get a financial outcome and still contribute. Monica: Yeah, yeah. It's Andy Farquharson: Very cool. Monica: funny that didn't come to my mind because I don't have any intentions of exiting yet. Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: I've still got many, many, many, many years of this journey ahead of me. So that wasn't foremost in my mind, but a hundred percent. Andy Farquharson: Yeah, very much. but hey Monica, this has been absolutely amazing. great to get that window into your your world and and and thinking around sort of conscious capitalism and and and sort of how you're you're sort of driving those changes and like really sort of loved as well that approach that sort of self-management. So you talked about how to say Lulu with reinventing organizations, Small is Beautiful, another another organization I'd want to shout out to here as well as Corporate Rebels. Monica: I don't know. Andy Farquharson: not sure if you're we're part of them too, but subscribe to them. They talk a lot about the the value of self-management. We talked we talk a lot about employee ownership on this podcast. There's a lot of resources that sort of we we share, but that's another one I think is really great for the community. but Monica, where can people go if they want to continue to follow your journey and follow the your new dentist journey? Monica: Well, you can find us at on Instagram, your new dentist Melbourne. I've not been very active on YouTube lately, but I'm gonna have to pick up my act on that. we're super busy at the coalface, which I love. I love engaging with the public and providing quality of care. can I give you one more little closing statement about some inspiration of mine? Andy Farquharson: Absolutely. Monica: You might enjoy this one, because when you spoke about the corporate le rebels, I was like, Yeah, I'm gonna have to check them out. so as my my surname's O'Malley. And there was a very famous O'Malley back in the 16th century, and her name was Grace O'Malley. And she was the only daughter of a very powerful chieftain that owned or, ruled the west coast of Ireland. And she overtook the shipping business. And she successfully defended the family territory on the west coast of Ireland for 75 years from all sorts of invaders. And she's an incredible inspiration for me. She met with Elizabeth I, survived or escaped execution, and she's a great inspiration in terms of when we talk about pirate ships, they are basically floating democracies. They were anti-establishment, they looked after their own. And and really I laugh a lot. I I'm deeply inspired by pirate mythology in terms Andy Farquharson: Yeah. Monica: of creating a safe space for the people who are the outsiders, the misfits, and who are deeply anti-establishment. And for me, so I do run the business a lot like a pirate ship. 100%. Andy Farquharson: Well hopefully you'll get some parrots and patches sent your way after this. Monica: 100%. So I strongly suggest if anyone wants to research Grace O'Malley, she's a phenomenal inspiration, particularly when it comes to feminine leadership. Andy Farquharson: Well, it's definitely a story I'm going to be doing doing some research in after this. Monica, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate Monica: Give it a go. Thank you. Andy Farquharson: it. Thank you. And thanks for joining us on the alternative exit. Monica: Thanks for the opportunity. Right. Andy Farquharson: Okay.