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The Hybrid Church: Michael Huerter on Worship in a Digital Age · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:12
church in the 21st century. At the Future
0:15
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and
0:21
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
0:24
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
0:28
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
0:30
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
0:34
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
0:37
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
0:39
little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with Michael
0:50
Herder. Michael is a pastor at Holmeswood Baptist
0:53
Church in Kansas City, where he leads worship and
0:57
works to build community and connection. As a
1:00
lifelong church musician and digital native, he is
1:04
interested in engaging with and contributing to
1:07
scholarship that bridges the gap between research
1:09
and practical ministry. A, uh, reminder before we
1:13
start today's conversation, please take a moment
1:16
to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review, and
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share a Future Christian with a friend. Connect
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email@laurensonatemediaprouh.com with comments,
1:32
questions, or ideas for future episodes. We
1:36
appreciate your voice in how we faithfully discern
1:39
the future of the church.
1:50
>> Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
1:52
This is Loren Richmond Jr. And today I'm pleased
1:55
to be welcoming Dr. Michael Herder to the show.
1:58
Hello, and, uh, thanks for being here.
2:00
>> Michael: So glad to be here. Thanks for having me on the
2:02
show, Loren.
2:03
>> Loren: Yeah, looking forward to this conversation today.
2:06
Let's begin. Uh, anything else you want our
2:08
listeners to know about you?
2:10
>> Michael: Um, sure. I really enjoy cooking, especially
2:14
pasta. I love Italian food. Uh, I like running and
2:16
hiking. I also enjoy video, uh, games and tabletop
2:20
games. One thing you have to know about me is that
2:22
I love dogs very much. I'm a big dog person.
2:26
>> Loren: Okay, well, maybe. I mean, my dogs. Will one of
2:29
them at least shove her face into my lap at least
2:32
one time during this conversation?
2:35
>> Michael: Well, I want every dog to be my friend, so that'd
2:37
be fine with me.
2:39
>> Loren: Good, good, good.
2:40
Uh, share, if you would, kind of about your faith
2:42
background, what that looked like in the past and
2:43
what that looks like today.
2:45
>> Michael: Yeah, um, I grew up in a Christian household and
2:48
being involved in church and church, uh, worship
2:51
and music kind of from a very young age. Um, um,
2:54
but I would say, looking back now, different
2:57
seasons of my faith journey have had different
2:59
emphases. Um, um. So, like, for instance, when I
3:02
was in high school and college, I think my faith
3:04
was Very emotive. It was a lot about my relational
3:07
connection with God and how I felt about that. Um,
3:10
um, when I was in seminary and then in doctoral
3:13
studies, I was diving more deeply into the life of
3:16
the mind and loving God through theology and
3:19
learning and asking lots of questions. Uh, uh,
3:22
and, and since leaving academia and working in
3:24
full time congreg ministry, I would say my faith,
3:28
uh, has more emphasized the practical. Um, how do
3:30
I embody my beliefs and loving my community and
3:33
caring for others. Uh, what are the relationships
3:36
that are most important to me and how do I
3:38
encounter God through those people? Um, so the
3:41
heart or the emotions, the mind and the practical
3:43
living out of faith are all important. But I think
3:45
I've experienced more growth in each of those
3:48
areas at uh, different stages and I'm grateful for
3:51
each of those. Um, and a lot of those have
3:53
changed. I mean my emotional landscape around
3:56
faith is very different than it was a decade ago.
3:58
And uh, some of my theology has shifted over the
4:01
years, but those are still important to me too.
4:03
But kind of that's the, the broad timeline I would
4:06
sketch out of how I've grown and experienced faith
4:09
at different stages of my life.
4:10
>> Loren: Yeah. Awesome.
4:11
Share if you would, any kind of spiritual
4:13
practices that are meaningful for you that you're
4:15
willing to share.
4:17
>> Michael: Yeah, I think two spiritual practices that I find
4:20
meaningful in this season of my life are spending
4:22
time in nature and reading and writing poetry. Um,
4:26
I've already named how faith is for me has come to
4:29
be more about relationships with others. But I
4:31
also still value solitude. Um, so over the past
4:35
year I felt more drawn to appreciating um, God as
4:39
creator, being out in nature to um, experience
4:43
God's goodness and the gift of life through those
4:45
things. So I find when, when life feels chaotic,
4:48
being in kind of the untamed natural world is kind
4:54
of grounding for me and very peaceful and helpful
4:57
in that way. Um, and that often also kind of
5:00
inspires me to write reflections or poems, kind of
5:03
processing and expressing uh, what I'm thinking
5:06
about, how I'm encountering God, what my prayer
5:07
life is like. So alongside um, Scripture I think
5:11
of poets like Rilke, um, or Mary Oliver or Jan
5:14
Richardson. And those people often, um, and others
5:17
often articulate things that feel meaning to me,
5:20
feel meaningful to me for faith. Uh, and then I
5:23
also really appreciate the um, I think I do think
5:27
of it as a spiritual practice of writing those
5:30
reflections and poems to kind of put on the page
5:32
what are the thoughts and feelings and wonderments
5:36
that are rumbling in me and Then they become more
5:38
clarified as I'm able to kind of put those down on
5:41
paper. So I think those are some helpful practices
5:44
for me these days.
5:45
>> Loren: I'm always so envious of you folks who have the
5:47
poetic gift. I've always struggled. I could never
5:52
really do poetry well. And one of my colleagues in
5:55
cpe, I don't know if you did CPE or certified
5:59
pastoral education in a hospital setting. One of
6:03
the colleagues of mine, she could just spit it out
6:07
like she wasn't even trying an amazing poem. And
6:09
she's like, hey, it just comes out of me. I'm
6:11
like, it's amazing, that gift. Folks that have it,
6:16
that have it. Let's, uh, let's move on to talk
6:19
about.
6:20
Michael is the author of the book the Hybrid, A
6:23
Practical Theology of Worship for an Online Era.
6:27
And I was saying this, Michael, to you offline,
6:29
and I kind of want to start the conversation here.
6:32
Like, your book is just. Your book is far more
6:35
than like a. A practical how to do online worship
6:39
better. So I'm curious, kind of like what shaped
6:42
your approach to this book and what do you hope to
6:46
accomplish, or what did you hope to accomplish
6:48
really with it?
6:50
>> Michael: Yeah, I became interested in kind of the
6:53
intersection of church and online technologies,
6:56
um, a little bit before COVID hit. Um, so I had
6:59
been exploring those things. Digital
7:01
mediatization, how digital technologies were
7:04
important in our culture, kind of back before 2020
7:07
in my, um, in my seminary days. But In January of
7:11
2020, uh, I started working part time at a church,
7:14
uh, doing music ministry. And at the same time I
7:17
was applying for my doctoral program in church
7:19
music. Uh, so my interview for that program had to
7:22
be held over zoom early in the COVID shutdown. And
7:25
I was already describing this interest in the
7:28
intersection of the Internet and church and
7:31
worship and how those things could work together,
7:33
what we needed to think about for them. Um, so I
7:37
was having this, you know, process of entering
7:39
into doctoral studies. And at the same time, the
7:42
church I was working at was trying to figure out
7:44
what to do when we were in the COVID shutdown.
7:47
Initially, this just looked like Sunday's coming.
7:50
We've got to do something. Let's put a camera up
7:51
in front in an empty sanctuary and send something
7:54
out to our people. And that's where we started.
7:57
Um, but I kind of had this front row seat to
8:00
church, trying to make sense of what to do in this
8:02
new landscape while also taking courses and doing
8:06
research around the history and the practice and
8:09
theology of church music. So I think the
8:11
combination of those two experiences, uh, led to
8:14
this book which came out of my dissertation. Um,
8:17
so, I mean, you mentioned that idea of it's not
8:19
just about how to do worship better. Um, for me,
8:23
the question is not so much like, is a video feed
8:26
of a sanctuary on a Sunday the future for the
8:29
church? Um, I tend to think that it's not, But I
8:32
do think that many churches will continue to have
8:34
some version of that. My church does that, and I
8:37
think there are some benefits. Um, but I'm
8:39
concerned about kind of the deeper questions that
8:41
I think will inform what the church becomes over
8:44
the coming decades and centuries.
8:46
So it was kind of important for me to try to put
8:49
our current moment in some historical context. So
8:53
I would argue that in the 21st century, we are in
8:56
the early stages of a technological revolution
9:00
with the, uh, the advent of the Internet and
9:02
social media. So I would compare this to, um, the
9:06
invention of the printing press. M so this was a
9:09
new communication technology that transformed the
9:11
world, including how information was shared, how
9:15
economies functioned, how church and government
9:18
power worked, and how people believed and
9:20
practiced their faith and shared those beliefs.
9:23
Um, the Protestant Reformation was a huge upheaval
9:26
for the church, and it happened in large part
9:28
because of this new technology at the printing
9:30
press. We've seen also similar. Similar things
9:33
happen, maybe to a lesser degree with, uh, other
9:35
technologies like the radio and the television.
9:37
Each one of those is kind of disruptive, uh, to
9:41
the established church and the norms that we have.
9:43
It raises questions, uh, about the church, about
9:46
our worship. Um, and these questions can take, you
9:49
know, decades. In the case of the printing press,
9:51
I would say centuries to be worked out. Um, so I
9:54
would say that we're in kind of the middle of the
9:58
beginning of another shift like that. Um, so what
10:01
I think this means is that, uh, neither I nor
10:04
anyone else can necessarily conclusively say that
10:08
we know what's going to happen in the next few
10:09
decades of the church. Um, so this book isn't
10:12
really trying to do that. Instead, my goal was to
10:16
contribute to the conversation that, uh, will need
10:18
to be ongoing, both in the academy and in the
10:21
church, about kind of how we move forward, uh,
10:24
while the ground continues to shift under our
10:27
feet. So that's kind of the goal is to contribute
10:30
to conversation, provide, um, ways of thinking and
10:35
information to consider for academics, for
10:38
scholars, and for pastors and ministers, uh, as
10:42
we're kind of working through together, what does
10:45
the church look like going forward? What do we
10:47
need to do? What do we need to consider? So, uh,
10:49
that was kind of the goal of the book.
10:50
>> Loren: Um, yeah, yeah. One of the things I appreciate,
10:54
even in your answers, hearing you, is I think it
10:56
does offer a unique setting for you to have a tie
11:00
to the local church. I think too often academia
11:05
can be disconnected from what happens on the
11:08
ground. And I think it adds value to your book and
11:11
then to your thoughts writ large to have that
11:15
connection. So I think that's an important point
11:18
too, that I want to emphasize. Um, I'm trying to
11:20
think about, gosh, how to take this conversation
11:23
because, like, you just shared so much there, you
11:26
have so much in the book. So I think I'm kind of
11:30
going to go backwards from what I was thinking
11:33
about because, uh, at the end of the book, on page
11:36
151, you talk about the burden of participation.
11:39
>> Michael: Yeah.
11:40
>> Loren: And I'm just thinking about like, what you said,
11:42
how we're very much. What you said in the early,
11:45
middle. The middle early of kind of navigating
11:49
this whole disruption or change or new thing.
11:55
We're still wrestling with what it means to be. I
12:00
mean, you have some of these conversations in the
12:01
book, certainly, but what it means to be in
12:04
worship. So I don't know. Uh, it's kind of a wide
12:07
open question, but feel free to respond to. What
12:10
do we do? What does even participation mean
12:12
anymore? I suppose.
12:16
>> Michael: Yeah, it is a big question. I think, um, one way
12:19
that I think we can take that, um, when I think
12:27
about worship in the church and kind of our
12:34
traditional. Not in terms of style, but just the.
12:37
The form and, um, way of gathering in a sanctuary
12:41
and worshiping together, um, I think that
12:46
certainly has deep value and is rooted in our
12:49
tradition. And I think that will continue. Um, and
12:53
I also wonder what other kinds of forms the church
12:57
may take going forward. So when I think about
12:59
participation, um, you know, that. That burden of
13:02
participation is, uh, kind of an idea that I was
13:05
wrestling with. Um, well, to. To take a step back.
13:10
I think, um, a lot of the things that kind of
13:15
motivated me to write this book were as I was in
13:17
that early 2020, um, time when there were these
13:22
conversations developing around what church was
13:26
and how we would do things online and what to do
13:28
about COVID and all these things. Um, part of what
13:31
led to the structure of the book and the questions
13:33
I was answering and, well, not answering, but
13:35
exploring, trying to find some. Some useful ins.
13:39
Um, were around things that I saw that kept coming
13:42
up in these kind of early conversations around
13:45
online worship and the form the church would take.
13:49
Uh, and one of those was this idea that well,
13:51
online worship is just purely passive. It's
13:54
consumeristic. There's no real participation and
13:56
engagement there. And that didn't ring fully true
14:00
to me, um, in part because I think there are
14:03
opportunities for meaningful engagement and
14:06
formation and relationship building that uses
14:09
various technologies, um, but also that I don't
14:12
think it's a given that deep participation and
14:16
active engagement always uh, happens in a church
14:20
sanctuary. Uh, and also I'm not sure that our
14:23
faith has to be constantly active all the time. I
14:26
think there's an interplay of the active and the
14:28
passive that are all, you know, that's all woven
14:31
in there and that's a part of how we relate to
14:32
God. And uh, and, and that can be a good thing.
14:35
Um, so there's a lot to unpack there. But I think
14:39
that idea of the burden of participation for me
14:41
was one of those ways of thinking through. I think
14:46
Covid and the shift to include more online
14:48
expressions of church, uh, gives us an opportunity
14:52
to re examine and question and look at what are
14:56
the ways that we've done things, that we just do
14:58
them because they're the way we've always done
15:00
them and what are the pros of those things? What
15:03
are the drawbacks? Are there blind spots that we
15:05
have had that were maybe brought to light by this
15:09
kind of upheaval brought about by Covid?
15:11
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm glad you kind of hint at this term
15:15
intrapassivity and I'd not been familiar with the
15:18
term. So I'm going to pull up a couple quotes from
15:20
your book where you talk about on 53, the
15:23
monstrous duty experienced entirely by the
15:27
individual. And then you talk about how this idea
15:32
of inter passivity can refer to the delegation of
15:35
enjoyment or consumption. It can also refer to the
15:37
delegation or sharing of belief. So this comes to
15:42
mind and tell me if I'm off track here, but tell
15:44
me if I'm hinting at what you're getting at. In an
15:48
episode I just released where we talked about my
15:51
guests and I talked about from my tradition, the
15:54
Christian Church Disciples of Christ is a non
15:56
creedal tradition. We famously say we have no
16:00
creed but Christ and the clergy group. In this
16:04
conversation we question whether or not whether we
16:07
need something to be more bonding, for lack of a
16:11
better word. And my co host who's leading
16:14
conversation, Martha Tutornick, who's Anglican,
16:17
talked about how she can appreciate in Anglican or
16:20
Episcopal spaces how that creed, saying the creed,
16:24
even when you don't entirely may not believe it in
16:26
the moment, offers us some sort of. Again, uh, if
16:28
I'M getting at it. Right? Delegation of the
16:31
sharing of belief. So am I understanding that
16:33
correctly?
16:34
>> Michael: Yeah, that would be one expression of that.
16:36
Something like a creed would be, that is recited
16:39
together as a gathered worshiping body would be an
16:41
expression of kind of that inter passivity of the
16:43
delegation of belief. When I am not able to fully
16:47
believe, uh, others are there to believe for me
16:50
and to carry our faith together. Um, I think that
16:54
can show up in other ways as well. I think, um,
16:56
corporate song is one of the ways we do that. I
16:58
mean, you can have, uh, two people in a gathered
17:02
congregation on the same Sunday. One may be
17:05
grieving and struggling and that may lead them
17:09
into a very close sense of, um, of trust and faith
17:13
in God. Or it could lead to a lot of doubt. And in
17:15
either one of those cases, there could be someone
17:17
else who is, you know, grateful and feeling
17:20
blessed and so happy to be there. And both of
17:24
those experiences belong in worship. And if we see
17:27
one person who is not, you know, singing and
17:30
jumping up and down and raising their hands, that
17:32
doesn't mean that they are not, uh, expressing
17:35
their faith and experiencing relationship with
17:36
God. And there is a sense in which we can sing and
17:40
express our faith on behalf of each other. Uh, and
17:44
so part of this idea of the monstrous duty, um,
17:46
it's a phrase that Carolyn Mackey uses to describe
17:49
kind of an experience of faith that feels like a
17:51
pressure, um, to, to experience or express a depth
17:55
of emotion that we may be humanly incapable of, at
17:58
least all the time. Um, so as an analogy, you
18:02
might think about going on a vacation, but you're
18:04
so worried about, this is my vacation, I'm
18:07
supposed to have fun, I'm supposed to relax. That
18:09
you're too worked up about being relaxed, that
18:11
you're not relaxing at all and you ruin the
18:12
vacation because of it. I think sometimes we do
18:14
the same thing with faith where we put this
18:16
pressure on ourselves that I need to, you know,
18:19
have this mountaintop experience of God and
18:22
worship. Otherwise, is this even worship where,
18:25
uh, I think we can think of worship as a more
18:27
communally shared kind of formative practice over
18:30
time that, yes, includes these moments of
18:34
transcendence, uh, and also includes these very
18:39
mundane and human experiences of just being
18:41
together and holding and carrying each other when
18:45
faith is difficult.
18:47
>> Loren: I think the thing, and uh, hopefully this is what
18:49
I'm remembering from your book, the thing that I
18:51
think was really powerful and helped put it into
18:56
relevance for me was do you reference the Passion
19:00
Concert or some kind of big evangelical, non
19:02
denominational kind of worship concert, which
19:05
might be for my mainline friends here. Try to
19:09
imagine this is not necessarily our scene, so to
19:12
speak, but it's.
19:14
>> Michael: Not mine either, to be honest. Interesting.
19:16
>> Loren: Like, we've seen those kind of things, like. And
19:19
like they look so incredible. But I think, as you
19:21
point out in the book, like, there is this kind of
19:23
like, individual pressure to feel like we're just
19:26
like, if you're a participant, you're. You're
19:28
always just basking in worship. And, and you point
19:31
out like sometimes you're just like, emotionally
19:32
and physically exhausted and then end up feeling
19:35
this. This guilt. And that's like. Like you're
19:37
saying, right.
19:37
>> Michael: That's like.
19:37
>> Loren: That's the monstrous duty in my hearing. Right. Of
19:41
having to always be in overflow.
19:45
>> Michael: Yeah, yeah. And that's kind of an example that I
19:47
gave as, uh, kind of the extreme of worship needs
19:51
to be active all the time. And I'm just kind of
19:54
pulling this back to say it doesn't need to be all
19:56
active or all passive. There is an ebb and flow of
19:59
this in our lives and our faith. And I think
20:01
that's well and good, uh, for our worship as well.
20:05
>> Loren: So let's talk about a little bit about corporate
20:08
versus individual worship. I mean, I'm certainly a
20:11
big believer in the gather community and the, the
20:14
emphasis or the. Of that. I don't know if you're
20:16
familiar with the work of David Taylor, who's
20:18
written On a Body of Praise. I had him on It's
20:23
Been a While, but talked about the benefits of
20:28
corporate worship on a human body. Certainly I
20:34
would hope most Christians would affirm the
20:36
importance of the gathered community. That being
20:37
said, we also, broadly speaking, Christianity talk
20:40
about the importance of individualizing our faith.
20:42
How do you balance those? Because certainly we
20:45
want to hold both things to be true, but we can
20:47
certainly, I think, lean toward one, emphasizing
20:49
one or the other. How do you balance those or find
20:51
those that attention?
20:54
>> Michael: Yeah, I think, um, hearing that question, my
20:57
initial instinct is to kind of speak on that
21:00
importance of corporate worship and community
21:02
belonging and shared formation and faith, um, like
21:05
you're describing with David Taylor's work. But
21:07
also as we live in an individualistic and
21:09
consumeristic society, we don't want our worship
21:13
to. To be an extension of that. Um, at the same
21:16
time, I, I do believe, as you mentioned, in the
21:19
importance of God's love for each person and that
21:21
God's love is accessible to individuals even when
21:24
communities or institutions fail us. Um, so I
21:28
think it's important for us to engage in communal
21:30
Practices and rituals for our faith formation and
21:33
for our well being. Um, thinking about kind of the
21:36
age of the Internet related to this as well.
21:38
There's also interesting research, uh, by Heidi
21:41
Campbell and other scholars of digital religion
21:44
about how religion in the age of the Internet has
21:46
become kind of a buffet of picking and choosing
21:49
various practices from different traditions to fit
21:51
the individual. And I'm not here to say that's
21:54
entirely wrong, but it's an interesting shift that
21:56
I think we're seeing. I, um, also think that, uh,
22:00
when corporate worship and individuality are
22:03
raised in conversations around, um, online church
22:06
and technology, often I think this comes along
22:09
with an assumption that people who use these new
22:11
technologies are automatically being more
22:15
individualistic and people who don't use those
22:17
technologies are being more communal. But I'm not
22:20
sure I totally fall there either, uh, because I
22:23
think that would miss the ways that people are
22:26
using these technologies to build connections and
22:29
community today. So I think these in person
22:32
relationships and rituals are important to all of
22:34
us. Um, I also see more and more people finding
22:38
community and building connections online and
22:40
using technologies. And then, you know, most of
22:42
those I think, can spill over into, you know, in
22:45
person, uh, expressions and relationships as well.
22:49
But I think more and more of those are going to
22:51
start with an initial connection through
22:54
technology and then kind of bleed over from there.
22:58
>> Loren: Yeah. This is such a great point that I want to
23:00
read this quote here just to highlight your work
23:03
here. Reading from page 68. You say, when we say
23:06
embodiment matters, therefore we go back to the
23:09
meeting. Or, excuse me, I'm butchering it. When we
23:12
say embodiment matters, therefore we have to go
23:14
back to meeting as we did. One of the implications
23:17
is that we value bodies, that those environments
23:20
are designed for more than the bodies that have
23:22
historically been excluded by the physical
23:25
contours of our practices. So for the church to
23:28
truly value embodiment as important to its music
23:31
and worship, it must be willing to ask how
23:34
embodiment matters and whose bodies matter. I'm
23:37
trying to find this past episode, um, relevant to
23:41
this, but share more about the quote because I
23:44
think that was such an important and powerful
23:45
quote.
23:47
>> Michael: Yeah, I think one of the things I recognize, I
23:51
mean, initially while I was doing this
23:53
dissertation research in kind of the literature
23:56
that I was, um, engaging with and conversations
23:58
that I was hearing. Uh, but then more recently,
24:01
I'll bring up an example from my ministry, uh, in
24:04
Kansas City now, um, where, uh, there's a couple
24:09
in my church, uh, an elderly couple, uh, who are
24:12
members of the church. Who found the church during
24:14
COVID uh, and have participated almost entirely
24:17
online. Uh, and this is, you know, they actually
24:20
live fairly close to the church, but because of
24:23
health challenges that they face, they just
24:25
physically can't get to the building on a Sunday
24:27
morning. It's not safe and practical for them to
24:30
do so. So they worship with us online. And then we
24:33
also have opportunities to have pastoral visits
24:36
with them for deacons to take them to doctor's
24:39
appointments for, you know, these various
24:41
ministry, uh, connections and relationships to
24:44
happen. Um, and their bodies matter to my
24:50
congregation. And they are not just consumers of a
24:55
product we are putting out there on the Internet.
24:58
Um, they're members of our church. They give to
25:00
the church. They occasionally lead us in worship.
25:03
That can look like, um, recording a video of a
25:06
testimony or a scripture reading or something that
25:08
they share, and then that can be shared in, you
25:11
know, with the gathered body of, uh, believers.
25:13
And we are made better because they are a part of
25:16
us. Um, and they're important to us. So I don't
25:19
want to say embodiment is so important to worship.
25:23
Therefore, we gotta do away with these uses of
25:26
technology that can include people whose
25:28
experience of embodiment would otherwise exclude
25:31
them from the church. I would rather say people's
25:35
bodies matter. Embodiment matters. Therefore, who
25:37
are the people who are marginalized because of
25:39
their experience of embodiment? And how can the
25:41
church come alongside them and include them?
25:44
>> Loren: Yeah, good stuff. I was thinking of Nandra Draper,
25:46
who co authored a book, Disabling a Practical
25:50
Theology for the Body Broken Body of Christ, would
25:53
recommend.
25:54
>> Michael: I thought it was excellent. That sounds great.
25:55
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm thinking too. And I wanted to. Again,
25:58
there's too many good questions to ask because
26:00
your book is so rich.
26:01
>> Michael: You're thinking about.
26:04
>> Loren: It's kind of going backwards here. But again, I
26:06
wanted to ask it on why corporate practices should
26:08
shape relational postures. And I wanted to
26:12
reference the quote here. Um, the question of what
26:16
makes worship corporate is not just whether
26:18
practice is done in the presence of other people,
26:20
but whether a practice shapes participants in a
26:22
relational posture. So I'm thinking again, kind of
26:25
stereotypically of the big. The big kind of modern
26:28
worship scene of dark lights and everybody staring
26:34
solely focused at the front of the room. I mean,
26:37
this is a bit banging, um, on my evangelical
26:40
friends here. Am I cherry picking there? Or, like,
26:46
is that example of what you're trying to get at?
26:48
>> Michael: Well, potentially. Um, so I think. One of the
26:56
major concerns I think people had early on when
26:59
thinking about online worship, um, was whether
27:02
People would build meaningful connections and
27:05
relationships while they're participating in
27:08
church through this, through this medium. And I
27:11
agree this is really important. And it's not a
27:13
given that people will connect meaningfully
27:15
through technology, um, but kind of in that
27:18
example you're giving, I think it's also not a
27:20
given that people will connect meaningfully in a
27:22
church building. Um, you can sneak in the back of
27:25
a worship service, be in church, and then sneak
27:28
out again without ever learning someone's name or
27:31
having a conversation. Um, and maybe that's not a
27:34
bad thing every Sunday. I'm an introvert myself,
27:37
and when my social battery is empty, I'm perfectly
27:40
happy to disappear. Um, but in person gatherings
27:44
are not automatically welcoming and conducive to
27:47
meaningful connections, and online interactions
27:50
don't preclude those relationships from happening.
27:52
So I think it's a matter of culture and of
27:54
intentionality to build those connections. So when
27:58
I think about corporate practices shaping us in a
28:01
relational posture, um, what I hope for my
28:06
church's worship is things like, uh, people
28:08
growing in their knowledge and trust of God, in
28:11
loving others. Well, in sharing meals and working
28:14
together for the good of their neighbors. M. None
28:17
of those things are necessarily going to happen
28:19
just because we sing together. Um, and so there's
28:23
more that goes into building that kind of
28:25
community. Um, and I think that can be done while
28:29
we're using various technologies and when we're
28:31
not. Uh, so I think, you know, both can be true
28:34
there.
28:36
>> Loren: First of all, I think, Michael, I'll say this.
28:38
Like, I think we're both gonna have to go take
28:40
like an introvert walk after this, right?
28:42
Probably.
28:43
>> Michael: Yeah, yeah, the on switch is definitely on right
28:46
now.
28:48
>> Loren: Uh, second, um, of all, like, I'm thinking of.
28:51
Gosh, what am I thinking about? I came up with an
28:53
introvert joke and then I forgot what I was gonna
28:55
say. Uh, oh, this is it. Like, certainly in non
28:58
denominational evangelical settings, maybe this is
29:02
too stereotypical. Like, they think of worship as
29:04
like, the music and the singing. Right. In a more
29:07
traditional or mainline context, worship tends to
29:10
be understood as the like in the entire service.
29:12
Do you think that would help too, is if we just
29:15
broaden our understanding of what worship is.
29:17
Because then, like, if I think about like the
29:18
passing the peace or the greeting time as an act
29:21
of worship, then it's more relational almost
29:24
entirely. Even if that is just like, hey, I'm
29:27
gonna comment on this video feed and comment back.
29:32
>> Michael: Yeah, I mean, worship is one of those words that
29:35
you almost have to define in whatever conversation
29:37
you're in. Are you talking about just music? Are
29:40
you talking about a worship service? Are you
29:41
talking about, you know, uh, all of our life is a
29:45
living sacrifice to God and you can kind of take
29:47
that full spectrum. I tend to, to agree like most
29:50
of the time when I'm talking about worship, I'm
29:53
referring to our gathering time together,
29:55
including all these rituals and practices that we
29:58
share. Um, but it can be expanded to talk about
30:01
other things as well. But yeah, I do think that,
30:04
um, expanding that a little bit beyond uh, just
30:07
music is helpful. Um, and that's part of the goal
30:13
of the book as well. While I do, I mean my study
30:17
was in the area of church music. So music is a big
30:19
part of it, but it also goes beyond that. There's,
30:22
you know, it's worship more broadly. Um, so I do
30:25
think that may be helpful as we're thinking
30:28
through those things.
30:29
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
30:30
I want to shift gears here a little bit talking
30:32
about the role of the kind of classical
30:35
evangelical worship leader, because that's one of
30:37
my spaces I work in now is for a nonprofit that
30:41
works with worship leaders called Green Room
30:43
Leaders. And I feel like what you talk about in
30:46
the book is like really the core problem that
30:49
worship leaders are having to carry. So maybe to
30:53
start, like just talk about what you, what you go
30:56
back to again to this idea of unmediated, um,
30:59
experience of the divine and kind of how that, how
31:03
that dynamic plays out with the worship leaders.
31:05
Yeah.
31:06
>> Michael: So I mean I, I first kind of had my uh, um, felt
31:10
my invitation into this question, um, because of
31:13
again these conversations that were popping up
31:15
around online worship, um, of people saying, oh
31:19
well, worship is supposed to be this unmediated
31:22
encounter with God. And yet if you're engaging uh,
31:25
with church through technology, then that's
31:27
mediated and therefore it's no longer worship. Um,
31:30
so I think the logic there seemed to say something
31:34
like worship needs to be direct, immediate, uh,
31:38
encounter with the divine. So if there's mediation
31:41
involved, it's not legitimate. Um, and this didn't
31:44
really ring true to me because I, I perceive a lot
31:47
of mediators and mediation involved in our worship
31:51
practices. Um, so, and I think this is true in um,
31:54
evangelical or non denominational spaces, but also
31:57
broader than that. I mean the scholars that I was
31:59
referencing, like M. Monique Ingalls, Marcel
32:02
Storenagel, Miranda, um, Claver and Joshua Busman,
32:05
um, they were all, you know, referencing
32:08
evangelical worship practices and there's a lot
32:10
of, there's a lot to research there. So. And they
32:13
also have kind of a wide ranging influence on
32:16
church culture even outside of those kind of
32:18
denominational or non denominational bounds. Um,
32:22
so I think those ideas have, you know, carry some
32:25
water outside that space as well. Um, but I would
32:28
describe like those norms, Um, I think they work
32:31
something like you have a worship service that is
32:34
a fairly complicated, high production value event,
32:37
uh, with a worship leader who directs and models
32:40
the uh, congregation's expression of worship. And
32:43
there are these hosts of media forms, projector
32:46
screens or hymnals, uh, electric lights and
32:48
speaker systems, guitars or pianos or even pipe
32:52
organs. And the music itself is a form of media
32:55
also. And those all contribute to this moment. Um,
32:59
but then all of those media and the worship leader
33:02
or minister who's acting as a mediator between God
33:04
and the congregation are meant to kind of vanish
33:07
so that the worshipers can have that unmediated
33:10
worship experience. Um, but I think if we're
33:12
paying attention, all of these elements of media
33:14
and technology, whether new technologies or old
33:17
technologies, like hymnals, architecture, all
33:20
that, um, air conditioning, uh, all those play a
33:23
role in facilitating that experience. So part of
33:26
what I'm arguing in the book is that mediation
33:28
doesn't need to be a dirty word for worship. Um,
33:31
and I would say that all of our worship is
33:33
mediated and even our relationship with God is
33:36
mediated through Christ. So I think we can take,
33:38
you know, a bit of an exhale to feel like we need
33:41
to, you know, conjure up this very intense
33:45
experience that uh, it requires us to ignore a lot
33:49
of things happening around us. I think it's good
33:51
for those things to like, not be occupying all of
33:54
our attention. And I think that's part of what
33:56
people experience with new technologies that makes
33:59
it feel, um, like they can't access that
34:02
unmediated experience if we're unfamiliar with the
34:05
technology. You know, like if, if this was my
34:08
first time on a video call, I would be scrambling
34:11
trying to figure out how do I unmute myself, where
34:14
is the camera? And I wouldn't be able to have a
34:16
conversation with you and connect human to human.
34:19
Um, so I think there's familiarity and facility
34:22
with a particular technology is uh, a part of what
34:25
allows it to kind of fade into the background and
34:27
allow connections to take place. So I think that's
34:30
a lot of what's going on there.
34:32
>> Loren: Well, this, this whole concept I think is so
34:34
interesting about this, this, this dynamic of the
34:37
worship leader mediating, but then seemingly
34:41
having to unmediate themselves or, you know, and
34:45
I'm going to describe to you because this, like I
34:47
was in this situation a Couple weeks ago. And I, I
34:50
had, I'd obviously read your book. So I, I was
34:53
like, oh my goodness, this is what's happening. So
34:55
I was at the small gathering of pastors and it was
34:57
a, uh, it was more of an evangelical context and
35:00
there was a single worship leader up on stage
35:03
leading worship. And what was crazy, I shouldn't
35:06
say crazy, but again, seeing it in person with
35:12
your kind of context in mind, he would, again, he
35:16
was kind of in front, in front of the microphone,
35:17
but then at points he would back off and stand to
35:20
the side of the microphone.
35:23
>> Michael: Uh-huh.
35:23
>> Loren: And I was like, this is, this is what he's doing.
35:25
Like he's trying to mediate and then unmediate
35:27
him, you know, like, get out of the way. Um, and
35:30
it was just so fascinating to see. And I, and just
35:33
seeing that, seeing, uh, knowing what you're
35:36
talking about here, I just think like, I don't do
35:40
pastors, like, I don't feel like pastors have this
35:42
same kind of dynamic, this pressure. Is that fair?
35:46
>> Michael: I think so. And this is me kind of going off the
35:49
cuff. But I think part of where that comes from is
35:54
anxiety about performance. Uh, and I don't mean
35:57
like performing well or poorly. I mean, worship
36:00
leaders often carry this sense of if I'm doing
36:03
something that is considered a performance, then
36:05
that is no longer worship, that is inappropriate,
36:08
that is self aggrandizing and not God honoring.
36:11
And we don't really think of in those same terms
36:14
when we talk about preaching. Um, we don't think
36:17
of preachers as, you know, sometimes they are self
36:21
aggrandizing, but we don't think about the act of
36:23
preaching as performative and self glorifying. Um,
36:27
when with music we often do, uh, so I think
36:30
there's that sense of for worship to happen, it
36:33
needs to not be about me. Whereas I don't know
36:36
that pastors and preachers feel that same burden
36:39
in quite the same way. It may show up in different
36:41
ways, but that's, you know, one way that I see
36:44
that showing up where, you know, and, and for me,
36:47
like, I, I again would just like to release that
36:50
pressure of, of worry about this idea of
36:54
performance, um, where, yeah, you're up there and
36:56
you're performing music and you're doing it in a
36:58
way that is hopefully shepherding your people into
37:03
connection with God, into worship. Uh, and that's
37:06
okay. And I don't begrudge anybody for, you know,
37:09
stepping aside from the microphone or wanting to
37:12
direct attention away from themselves. I think
37:13
that can Be appropriate. That can be effective.
37:16
Um, but I think sometimes it does also come from
37:18
this anxiety about, well, I'd better not be
37:21
performing right now. I'd better not be a mediator
37:24
right now. I need to disappear. Um, yeah. So it's
37:28
an interesting set of weird kind of subcultural
37:31
norms we have.
37:32
>> Loren: Right, right. Because certainly, like in when I
37:37
saw it, I didn't get the sense that this person
37:39
was like, you know, embarrassed about performing.
37:42
It was trying to, trying to convey, like, this is
37:46
not about me, this is about God. Which again, we
37:48
would say is important and essential. Right. But
37:52
like you said in preaching, like, uh, at least I
37:56
haven't seen some preacher, like wander off to the
37:58
side.
37:59
>> Michael: Of the, you know, turn off my microphone for a
38:03
bit. Okay. Yeah.
38:04
>> Loren: I don't know. Yeah. So I mean, I think that is
38:07
interesting. And again, like, this is where, uh,
38:11
you know, I'm a student from you and thinking
38:13
about this because again, like in one of the. In
38:16
my work with Green Room leaders, like, this is
38:19
part of the problem we're trying to solve is like
38:20
not just telling worship leaders, like, how to
38:22
pluck the guitar better, but also kind of navigate
38:25
this tension or dynamic they have of like, feeling
38:29
like they. It needs to be authentic, but also like
38:32
their, you know, their bosses are.
38:34
>> Michael: Telling them authenticity, man.
38:36
>> Loren: Yeah, you better put on a good show like, because
38:38
if you're just, I mean, I'm not a musician, but
38:41
you know, if you're just screeching your way
38:43
through the, the music, like, that's not gonna
38:46
hack it either.
38:47
>> Michael: Right? Yeah.
38:49
>> Loren: And what, what is that? Because again, I'm kind of
38:52
getting in the weeds here.
38:52
But you, you name this different dynamic between
38:55
pastors and the musicians, the worship leaders,
38:58
generally speaking, obviously pastors I think
39:02
have, obviously there's some leech they have. If
39:05
they just can't talk, eventually that's going to
39:08
run dry and they're going to get worn out or folks
39:11
get worn out of hearing them. But to some extent
39:16
what passes as good preaching, I guess is what I'm
39:18
trying to say really changes. And it's variable
39:21
based on the, the context. There's some traditions
39:25
where it seems like all they do is just talk
39:28
through a, ah, passage of Scripture for an hour.
39:30
And I think this is not good preaching. And um,
39:34
that's obviously my own bias and context. Whereas
39:37
when we think about a worship leader in the
39:40
traditional evangelical sense, there's pretty
39:43
strict, uh, expectations of what that means to be
39:46
a good worship leader. Right?
39:47
>> Michael: Yeah. I think part of a large part of where that
39:51
comes from is the contemporary Christian music
39:55
industry, which sets the norms for what good
39:59
worship music sounds and looks like. So worship
40:02
leaders, again, have this expectation placed on
40:05
them that you're supposed to look and sound like
40:09
Hillsong or Elevation or Bethel or whoever. Um,
40:13
and that's what being a worship leader means. Um,
40:16
so I. I think there's like a pretty standardized,
40:19
like a pretty narrow model of this is what a
40:22
worship leader looks like within that worship
40:24
style, within that, you know, whatever swath of
40:28
churches are. Are aspiring to that. Um, so I think
40:32
there are those norms that are communicated, um,
40:35
through that industry where, I mean, you know,
40:39
certainly there are expectations of what preachers
40:42
should look and sound like and how they should
40:44
behave in different church, um, traditions. But I
40:47
don't know that there's as much of kind of a
40:52
machine or a cultural industry around, you know,
40:56
producing creatures that need to look and act and
40:59
dress in a certain way. And I don't know, again,
41:02
and there are different expressions of church
41:06
music and worship than that as well. Um, but I
41:10
think that's where that comes from is that kind of
41:12
very present, very powerful, uh, industry and kind
41:16
of those role models that are expected.
41:18
>> Loren: Right. And I mean, it does go back to kind of your
41:20
point from before about religion or Christianity
41:23
be somewhat of a buffet in that, like, you know,
41:26
because of the Internet, people are, you know,
41:29
they're from all contexts Christianity. They're
41:31
watching Hillsong or Bethel. Like, they're
41:34
listening to Stephen Furtick or. Or what's his
41:38
name, um, Osteen. And, you know, hopefully, um,
41:43
they're listening to some more like, uh,
41:45
theologically dense folks.
41:46
>> Michael: Sure, sure. And I'm sure those kind of. I'm sure
41:49
those kind of pastors have. Have an outsized
41:53
impact on how preachers think they need to behave
41:55
and act as well. So I'm not saying it's only
41:57
musicians who feel that. Right. But I think
41:59
there's another level of, you know, you don't go
42:03
online and purchase Joel Osteen's or Stephen
42:05
Furtick's sermons to preach in your church, but so
42:09
many worship leaders are expected to play the same
42:11
songs. Try to do it as much like the studio
42:13
recording as you can.
42:17
>> Loren: So, practically speaking, I've wondered, does it
42:20
make sense for more churches to try to simplify
42:24
their musical worship because they can't
42:28
replicate, like, the Hill songs, like, surely
42:31
speaking. What do you think?
42:32
>> Michael: Yeah, I mean, uh, I tend to think so. And this is
42:35
kind of where I land also with, um, online streams
42:40
as well, like, I. For music and for streaming. I
42:43
think the bar that many people think has been set
42:48
is how does the megachurch do it? We'd better do
42:51
it like the mega church. Uh, and I just don't
42:53
think, I would say it's just not realistic for the
42:57
vast majority of congregations to do that either
43:00
musically or in terms of, you know, video and
43:03
streaming, um, and production value. And I don't
43:05
think it needs to be, um, you know, my own
43:09
personal approach to worship leadership is who are
43:12
the people in my community? What are the gifts
43:14
that are present, what music makes sense for us to
43:18
do? Sometimes that is, you know, something that's
43:21
up on the CCLI charts, but oftentimes it's
43:23
something different. Um, and you know, preparing
43:27
music that makes sense for my people to be able to
43:29
lead, uh, is, is kind of where I land with that
43:32
and you know, with, with technology as well. I
43:35
come down to a, uh, people first approach. The
43:39
question isn't can we produce a stream like a
43:42
megachurch to compete in the attention economy?
43:45
The question I would say is who are our people
43:49
that we are wanting to connect with, that we are
43:53
in relationship with, uh, and what technologies,
43:56
if any, are available to us that we can use
43:59
effectively to uh, minister with them?
44:03
>> Loren: And I guess this gets into the last question I
44:06
want to ask you here.
44:08
Ryan Burge has data out, at least if I understood
44:11
it correctly, suggesting that the people who are
44:13
watching are people who are already, you know,
44:17
connected. Certainly your book warns about shallow
44:21
impact. Obviously you've also talked about how
44:24
just because someone's not in person doesn't mean
44:26
they're necessarily shallow Christians. Right.
44:29
Like the example you gave that couple. Like what
44:32
practical advice do you think about beyond just
44:35
like not trying to go crazy and mirror the
44:39
megachurch? How would you advise churches, like
44:42
theologically thinking about how much emphasis do
44:46
we want to put on this? I mean, and let me just
44:50
add context to this too. Like I'm thinking about
44:52
even like in my youth of like so many Baptist
44:55
churches, like they'd make sermon tapes and like I
44:59
remember early out of college, like this church I
45:02
worked for had like a room full of past sermons.
45:05
>> Michael: Yeah, yeah. And uh, how many of those get listened
45:08
to now, I wonder.
45:11
>> Loren: So certainly, certainly this has been utilizing
45:16
technology for people to experience what happens
45:19
in the gather. Worship experience has been a thing
45:22
to some extent for many, many years.
45:25
>> Michael: Mhm.
45:27
>> Loren: Yeah.
45:28
>> Michael: I mean your friends, uh, Ryan Burge and I've heard
45:32
Ryan speak and I really appreciate his research
45:34
and the data that he shares with the church. So
45:36
that kind of statistic I think is, is interesting
45:39
and churches should be aware of that. Um, my
45:43
impression is that a lot of churches perceived,
45:46
um, the growth of online, uh, church streams as an
45:50
opportunity for outreach and for church growth.
45:53
Kind of that sense of wow, we have, you know, the
45:56
world is our oyster, our audience has ballooned
46:00
now suddenly, and then two people watch your
46:02
stream. Um, so it's kind of a bit of a rude
46:05
awakening there at times. Um, because I think all
46:08
of this is complicated by, um, the realities of
46:11
social media algorithms and pressures to increase
46:14
production value. Like we were talking about, um,
46:17
trying to compete in, you know, what shows up on
46:19
people's feeds and just those limited resources
46:22
that almost every congregation, certainly, uh, the
46:25
normative congregation would have. So I don't
46:28
think stream services are a solution to declining
46:31
religious demographics. Um, but I do still think
46:34
it can be a valuable point of connection, um,
46:37
whether that's for potential visitors or for
46:39
existing congregants. Um, so while I do think
46:44
that, you know, I think Ryan Burge is likely
46:46
correct that most people watching church online
46:50
are people who are already engaged with a church,
46:53
I also know that a lot of people will watch a
46:55
church's stream while they're trying to decide, do
46:57
I want to go here? Yeah. Um, so it is kind of a
47:00
first impression way that people can get to know a
47:03
little bit more about a church. I mean, and I
47:06
think that's part of the reality moving forward is
47:09
that um, online connections with our communities
47:13
will likely be the first foot in the door. Whether
47:16
that's a church website, whether that's a stream,
47:19
um, and that's where the connection starts. And of
47:21
course we don't want it to end there. Um, so the
47:24
hope is that people can connect uh, more deeply
47:26
and different ways. Um, so I guess I would say
47:30
yeah, to churches. Yeah. Probably don't expect
47:34
your stream to um, drive a whole lot of new church
47:39
growth. But I also think it would be short sighted
47:42
for us to throw up our hands and say, well if it's
47:44
not doing that, why would we use any technology?
47:47
So there again I come back to the idea of maybe it
47:51
is a stream. And I think a lot of churches are
47:53
going to continue to have that. Um, maybe it's
47:56
other things as well. I mean, and it doesn't
47:57
always have to be new technology. Uh, when I was
48:01
doing the research for the book, I came across
48:04
this really interesting example of a, ah,
48:06
community that was of people kind of out in this
48:10
rural place where they had their church, but
48:12
during COVID they couldn't meet and they
48:14
discovered that, uh, if they got on a landline
48:17
telephone conference call together, they could
48:20
sing hymns.
48:21
>> Loren: Wow.
48:22
>> Michael: At the same time together. And it worked with that
48:24
technology, you know, that's not something that
48:26
currently works very well with a zoom meeting or
48:29
a, uh, video, something like that. Because of the
48:32
lag inherent in the way those structures are
48:34
built. I do think that that lag will eventually be
48:37
solved. I'm not sure at what point. I think it's
48:39
possible, it's just not how those structures are
48:42
currently built. Um, but, you know, with an old
48:45
technology like those landline telephones, they
48:47
could make it work. Uh, so that was a meaningful
48:50
thing for that community. Um, would that work for
48:53
me? No. I don't even have a landline. There's the
48:55
dog. Hello, dog. Hi. Anyway, um, of course I was
49:03
going to be distracted by the dog.
49:04
>> Loren: Glad you found the dog more pleasant than I do.
49:10
>> Michael: But, yeah. Anyway, I think there are those
49:13
opportunities for churches to, um, use whatever
49:16
technology makes sense for, for your community.
49:19
Um, and don't be afraid of trying something out.
49:22
And also don't think that you need to use the
49:26
brand new thing that just came out, otherwise
49:28
you'll immediately fall into irrelevance. I don't
49:30
think that's true of church. Um, but the point is
49:33
to, to be in community with and be accompanying
49:39
people who are now living in a hybrid world of
49:42
online and offline realities that are more and
49:45
more integrated. Um, that's just a fact of life
49:48
now. It's how we move through the rest of our
49:50
days. Uh, so of course that's going to have some
49:52
impact on our faith. And, um, then how do we live
49:55
that out? What does discipleship look like in that
49:58
hybrid space?
49:59
>> Loren: Okay, I'm keeping you long here, but I need to ask
50:01
one more question, and you can feel free to be
50:04
brief before we move on to closing questions.
50:06
Do you think, like, do some churches, it is okay
50:09
for them just be like, we can't do this, let's
50:12
drop it?
50:13
>> Michael: Sure. I mean, I think so, yes. Um, and honestly,
50:17
um, I know of some church leaders and some church
50:20
traditions that are actually intentionally saying
50:23
we are not going to engage in this space, whether
50:26
because they just feel it's impractical or because
50:29
they have some kind of theological opposition to
50:31
it, they feel it's inappropriate for some reason
50:34
or not what they want to be doing. And honestly,
50:37
I'm happy for those churches to be in the world
50:39
and be part of the broader body of Christ. I think
50:42
we need both churches that are experimenting on
50:45
the Kind of embracing technology side and seeing
50:48
what is possible and churches who are not entering
50:52
into that space and saying, let's stick with, um,
50:56
you know, what we've received from our tradition
50:59
and ways that we can embody that now. Um, I think
51:03
there are things to learn there also, so I'm
51:05
supportive of that. Uh, it's probably not how, you
51:08
know, given my, my interest in my research,
51:11
probably not what I'm going to do at my church,
51:14
but, you know, and where I stand theologically
51:16
currently. But yeah, I'm totally fine with, with
51:20
churches doing that. And that may be, you know, a,
51:23
an appropriate and a spirit led decision for a
51:25
particular church community.
51:27
>> Loren: Cool. Cool. Well, the book is the Hybrid
51:30
Congregation A Practical Theology of Worship for
51:33
an Online Era. Michael, let's take a quick break
51:36
and come back with some closing questions.
51:42
>> Michael: All right.
51:42
>> Loren: We're back with Dr. Uh, Michael Herder. So thank
51:46
you for your conversation and for your insights
51:48
here. Some closing questions you're welcome to
51:50
take as seriously or not as you'd like to, but if
51:53
you're Pope for a day, what does that day look
51:56
like for you? Wow. What a day.
51:59
>> Michael: Um, honestly, I have a lot of respect and
52:03
appreciation for Pope Leo, and I appreciate his
52:08
leadership and the posture he's modeling for the
52:10
church in this moment. Um, and I'm also aware that
52:12
the global church is a huge institution, and I
52:16
honestly don't even know what I could do or
52:18
accomplish in one day. I'll just say it. I
52:21
probably wouldn't be a very good choice for Pope.
52:23
Having said that, um, I think I would want to find
52:29
an opportunity. Um, and I think this would require
52:32
a lot of leaning on the leaders and people around
52:35
me and just saying, okay, I just landed here. What
52:38
are we doing? What's going on? But I would love to
52:40
find an opportunity to work towards greater unity
52:44
in the church around the central teachings, uh, of
52:46
Jesus, like feeding the hungry, healing the sick,
52:49
and caring for the marginalized. Um, if I could
52:52
just be a small part of more of that happening in
52:54
the world, I think that would be a day well spent.
52:56
>> Loren: That would be a good day well spent. A, uh,
52:59
theologian or historical Christian figure you'd
53:01
want to meet or bring back to life.
53:04
>> Michael: My first thought is Thomas Merton, uh, 20th
53:08
century Trappist monk and mystic who wrote
53:11
wonderful books. Uh, I found his theology really
53:13
meaningful, informative. So it'd be incredible to
53:15
meet and talk with him.
53:17
>> Loren: Absolutely. What do you think history will
53:20
remember from our current time and place?
53:24
>> Michael: Um, well, for better and for worse, I think we
53:27
live in what some people would call interesting
53:29
times.
53:29
>> Loren: Yeah.
53:30
>> Michael: Um, there's so much going on, and there's a lot of
53:33
change and uncertainty. Um, I expect when it comes
53:37
to the church, I expect history will remember how
53:39
the church responded to the needs of vulnerable
53:42
people caught up in that turmoil in society and
53:45
technology and the government. I think all of
53:47
that. I think that's, um, what I expect we'll be
53:50
looking back on, you know, in the coming decades.
53:52
>> Loren: Yeah. What do you hope for the future of
53:55
Christianity?
53:58
>> Michael: My hope is that the future of Christianity is less
54:04
concerned with control and more concerned with
54:06
compassion. Um, I hope we are less worried about
54:09
theological differences and more involved in
54:12
collaboration and caring for the people who are
54:14
vulnerable. Um, I hope we can treat God's creation
54:17
with more care and respect. And I hope we can be
54:21
less about maintaining our institutions and more
54:24
about seeing the image of God in all people. Hmm.
54:26
>> Loren: M. That's good.
54:29
Okay. I feel like I need to ask you one more.
54:32
Just. That was such a good question. That was such
54:34
a good answer, though. But, uh, I guess I feel
54:37
like I need to ask you, like, as someone who
54:39
researches worship and, like, that's your
54:43
scholarship, like, what do you envision. Like,
54:45
what do you envision as, like, the next. I don't
54:49
know, worship? What'll. What'll. Worship. Look.
54:53
Can't talk. What will a worship service look like
54:55
in 20, 30, 40 years? And what I mean by that,
54:59
like, in the 1950s, like, kind of mainline
55:02
Protestantism was like, the style of worship and
55:06
certainly, like. Right. Charismatic and. And non.
55:11
And, um, worship singing was just creeping in in
55:15
some spaces now it seems like, really, like, the
55:19
kind of modern praise and worship scene has
55:21
become, like, the style of worship.
55:24
>> Michael: Sure.
55:24
>> Loren: At least in America. Like, what do you. Or do you
55:26
think it's gonna be too diverse to even have a
55:29
dominant style?
55:31
>> Michael: Yeah, I mean, it may be that.
55:33
I think one thing that I'm really curious about
55:35
for the future of, um, at least the church's
55:39
worship through music is, uh, one thing I've
55:43
noticed in conversations with people who are
55:46
interested in kind of new expressions of church or
55:49
reimagining church, um, deconstructing,
55:52
reconstructing. Um, it feels like there's not all
55:55
that much interest in music per se. There's maybe
55:58
this sense of, you know, m. Maybe music is just
56:02
this, you know, machine of cultural production on
56:06
the industry. Maybe we don't want to have anything
56:09
to do with music. I think there's something to be
56:13
reclaimed and rediscovered in the music that has
56:17
been a part of uh, church movements for justice, I
56:20
think about the civil rights movement, other
56:22
movements around the world. When those kinds of
56:25
movements of resistance and, um, speaking against
56:29
oppression happen, music is a part of that. Uh,
56:32
and I think we've a bit lost that, um, or allowed
56:36
that to be claimed, you know, in other spaces in
56:39
our culture currently. And I'm hopeful that
56:42
something of that will reemerge. Um, I don't know
56:45
what that looks like. And this is also just me as
56:47
a music minister kind of wrestling with what is
56:50
the. What is the point of this music we make? What
56:52
is the good in it? And how can that. How can we
56:55
kindle that? Um, so I think that's a hope that I
56:57
have, a wonderment that I have, uh, how can the
57:01
music of the church reconnect with movements for
57:03
justice and. And all that?
57:05
>> Loren: Oh, that's so good. I wish we had more time to
57:06
talk about it. So I'm thinking of, like,
57:08
certainly, like We Shall Overcome as this hymn.
57:10
Like, what's the worship song that's really
57:12
become, um. Uh, I can't think of the title really
57:16
become prominent, but it's like, it's not really
57:20
connected to what. At least I understand it too,
57:23
where it's kind of historical context in which it
57:26
was written in, uh, really intriguing
57:29
conversation. I need to let you go. I really
57:32
appreciate the conversation. Share if you would,
57:34
how folks can connect with you or your website or
57:36
any of that stuff.
57:38
>> Michael: Sure. Um, you can find the book, um, on
57:41
InterVarsity Press academics website. It's also on
57:44
Amazon, um, probably other booksellers as well.
57:46
You, uh, can get it in print or ebook or audiobook
57:49
formats. Um, so feel free to check that out. Um,
57:52
my church in Kansas City is Holmeswood Church. You
57:55
can find us@homeswood.org um, yeah, so it was a
57:58
pleasure talking with you, Loren. Thank you so
57:59
much. I really enjoyed this conversation.
58:01
>> Loren: Yeah, thanks. Appreciate your time. Uh, we always
58:03
leave folks with a word of peace, so may God's
58:06
peace be with you.
58:07
>> Michael: Amen. Thank you. Thank you.
58:15
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
58:17
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
58:20
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58:23
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58:25
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58:43
>> Loren: Thanks.
58:44
>> Loren Richmond: And go in peace.