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Be Your Finest Art (with Joanne Miller) · The Daily Writer

0:05
SPEAKER_03: Hey friends, this is Kent Sanders from Inkwell Ghostwriting.
0:09
SPEAKER_03: Welcome to episode 157 of the Smart Business Writing Podcast.
0:14
SPEAKER_03: This is a show that helps you grow your business, amplify your authority, and increase your impact through the power of writing.
0:21
SPEAKER_03: Thanks so much for joining me today.
0:22
SPEAKER_03: I really appreciate you dropping by and checking out this episode.
0:27
SPEAKER_03: You know, the life of an artist or a writer is one that is filled with a lot of tension between competing priorities.
0:34
SPEAKER_03: As we talk about writing that helps to grow your business, one of the tensions we face is the balance between writing for fun and curiosity versus the importance of keeping the business side in mind by filling a specific niche or writing for a specific audience.
0:49
SPEAKER_03: So we have those two tensions, writing for fun and curiosity, versus the business side of writing.
0:55
SPEAKER_03: Well, I'm thrilled that our guest today is here to help us navigate through these complex waters.
1:00
SPEAKER_03: Her name is Joanne Miller, and she's the author of several books, including Be Your Finest Art and Creating a Haven of Peace.
1:08
SPEAKER_03: I first met Joanne when I went to a workshop called Right to the Bank that her husband Dan put together.
1:15
SPEAKER_03: This was back in 2012 or so.
1:17
SPEAKER_03: And by the way, Dan is the author of the book 48 Days to the Work and Life You Love, as well as the host of the 48 Days podcast.
1:25
SPEAKER_03: And he also happens to be the guest on my very next episode, which is really cool.
1:30
SPEAKER_03: So I had gone to this workshop called Right to the Bank a number of years ago and first got to know Dan and Joanne a bit.
1:36
SPEAKER_03: And as I did, and in the year since then, it's been abundantly clear that Joanne and Dan take their creative work really seriously.
1:45
SPEAKER_03: And I was thrilled to learn a couple of years ago that Joanne was using my last book called The Artist's Suitcase in her art classes that she taught.
1:54
SPEAKER_03: And over the last few years, I've come to really appreciate both Joanne and Dan for their creative approach to life.
2:01
SPEAKER_03: In today's conversation, we explore a number of themes from her amazing book called Be Your Finest Art.
2:07
SPEAKER_03: We explore some themes that include creativity, awakening, listening, and the power of new beginnings.
2:15
SPEAKER_03: Joanne also shares her experience as an author, as well as giving some great advice for anybody who's thinking about writing a book.
2:22
SPEAKER_03: I also want to mention that Joanne has generously given our podcast listeners a special deal on her book, Be Your Finest Art.
2:30
SPEAKER_03: For more details, you can connect with Joanne at her email address, which is Joanne at Joannefmiller.com.
2:37
SPEAKER_03: After the conversation, make sure to check out the show notes at Kent Sanders.net slash one five seven.
2:44
SPEAKER_03: All right, let's get to the conversation with Joanne Miller.
2:48
SPEAKER_03: Joanne, it is great to have you on the Smart Business Writing Podcast.
2:51
SPEAKER_03: I've been looking forward to this conversation for quite a while.
2:53
SPEAKER_03: So thank you so much for making the time to do this.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: I'm honored to be asked.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: I have enjoyed your book, your the artist suitcase, and my students and fellow artists have enjoyed it so much.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: So I am honored that you asked me.
3:10
SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you so much.
3:11
SPEAKER_03: And I'm I'm so honored that you used that book.
3:13
SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of great books out there.
3:15
SPEAKER_03: So really the fact that anybody would read something that I wrote instead of something else is I feel extremely honored for that.
3:22
SPEAKER_03: So thank you so much.
3:24
SPEAKER_03: That's a lot of fun.
3:25
SPEAKER_03: So we are here to talk about uh some things related to your writing in books.
3:30
SPEAKER_03: And of course, as you know, I sent you a list of I think 732 questions.
3:34
SPEAKER_03: It wasn't quite that many, but it was close.
3:36
SPEAKER_03: But it's because you have such a variety of things that you do.
3:40
SPEAKER_03: And uh one of the things that I love about podcasting is I get to talk to really amazing people like yourself.
3:46
SPEAKER_03: But one of the challenges is narrowing down all the things that I want to ask because I can't do a 15-hour interview, you know.
3:52
SPEAKER_03: So I definitely want to ask some questions related to your books, but first I I want to dig in for a moment, if we can, to your journey as an author.
4:00
SPEAKER_03: And in your in your book, Be Your Finest Art, which isn't an amazing book, by the way.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
4:05
SPEAKER_03: You talk about how your first book was written with your granddaughter, which I think is such a cool story.
4:10
SPEAKER_03: And I'm wondering if you can walk us through that experience and how it led to your author journey over the last number of years.
4:17
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: Uh many years ago, I was on a trip.
4:21
SPEAKER_00: Actually, my husband, Dan, was speaking in Florida, and we were staying in a hotel room, and I had a uh uh one of my grandchildren was having a birthday, and in the middle of the night, I woke up with a poem in my head that would just flowed so beautifully, it was like too good to just not do something about.
4:46
SPEAKER_00: And I knew if I laid there very long, I and tried to remember it in the morning, I wouldn't.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: So I got a uh scrounged around in a dark hotel room, went into the bathroom, turned the light on, and wrote down this poem that just flowed beautifully.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: And I then when got back home, I sent it to my granddaughter and she called me and she said, Nana, that needs to be a book.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: And I just laughed it off and said, No way.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: I had never written a book and didn't think that I could, which usually is a starting point.
5:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, I never even considered it.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: It was just a poem that I wrote for her.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: Well, um that kind of stuck in my head for about a year.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: It just kept coming up in my mind a book.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: That would be kind of fun.
5:35
SPEAKER_00: And of course, my husband's been the author of quite a few books, and I know a lot about publishing and and writing and that kind of thing.
5:43
SPEAKER_00: And I thought, I don't know, maybe I should give it a try.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: So I I I put out a feeler for getting somebody to illustrate it.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: Now, I am an artist and I do art classes and I teach art, but there's a big difference between being a regular artist and being an illustrator.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: I've had a lot of people ask me, why didn't you illustrate your own books?
6:08
SPEAKER_00: It's just not the same.
6:10
SPEAKER_00: Uh trying to draw emotion and action and things like that that you have to do in a book just isn't my thing.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: So I put out some feelers in our uh community, uh, which our online community about getting somebody to do some illustrating.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: And our son, our oldest son, Kevin, suggested a lady who lives in Pennsylvania, Rose Goss, and uh I contacted her.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: Long story short, we so connected.
6:40
SPEAKER_00: We even had in our libraries the same children's book that I had it kind of modeled after as far as what I wanted in illustrations.
6:50
SPEAKER_00: She knew exactly what I wanted.
6:52
SPEAKER_00: And we ended up doing four children's books together in what I call the one I wanna be series, that is all different personality styles of children, of people in general.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: There are four different personality styles, and they are based on uh different grandchildren.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: I have 17 grandchildren.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: I have not written 17 children's books, but I have written five.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: There was another one that came later that one of my grandchildren actually illustrated.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: But I must say, too, because you mentioned the Be Your Finest Art book, Rose Goss also did the um the illustrations in that book and putting it all together and organizing it in a way that it was just it was quite a feat for her because it was a new venue for her, and we had a lot of fun with it, but she's just great at putting it all together.
7:49
SPEAKER_03: Wow, I love that.
7:51
SPEAKER_03: That is that's really cool.
7:53
SPEAKER_03: In your mind, when you're doing a children's book versus another type of book, do you approach those differently?
7:58
SPEAKER_03: I mean, obviously they're different things, different genres and all that, but do you approach those different creatively as you're as you're constructing those and thinking through what those books are going to be?
8:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do very much so.
8:12
SPEAKER_00: When you're doing a children's book, for one thing, there's always a lot of illustrations.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: If if you don't have children a lot of illustrations, it's more of a young adult book and it's in a whole different genre.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: But when you're doing a children's book and you've got illustrations you have to work with, then you have to think where is where when you open that book, where is the seam?
8:31
SPEAKER_00: Where do you where does the book come together?
8:33
SPEAKER_00: How do those need to be laid out?
8:35
SPEAKER_00: If you have one picture that has to, and and the and even the the titles or the uh commentary underneath that picture or above that picture has to be laid out in a way that allows for putting the book together.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: So it's a little bit more complicated than if you're just doing a regular book and you just uh uh without the illustrations and so forth, and you just write a whole lot of dialogue.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: It's it's yeah, it's quite different in that respect.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: And then you have to also look at uh cost factor because most parents aren't going to buy, and let's face it, you're you're marketing to the parent, not to the child.
9:16
SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, so you have to look at it from a parent parental standpoint, uh, an adult standpoint, okay, what is going to help them be drawn to this book?
9:28
SPEAKER_00: And certainly if it's a$30 book, they're probably not going to buy it.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: So you have to you have to keep the uh the cost into in consideration too.
9:39
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that can get true get tricky, particularly if there's a lot of color in the book.
9:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, a lot of things that have to be done that it actually, I think when it gets to be real involved color-wise and so forth and and and length, you're better off to send it overseas and have it printed there than you are in the United States, because it can get quite costly, and then you don't have a whole lot of profit margin.
10:05
SPEAKER_03: So there's almost a deceptive simplicity about kids' books because you go into the bookstore, you see a kid's book, and those of us who write a lot of words, the tendency might be to think, oh, you know, that book is like 250 words or something.
10:19
SPEAKER_03: How hard could it be to write a kid's book?
10:21
SPEAKER_03: But actually, it is really difficult to write a good kid's book.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: It it is, Kent.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: You've made a very valid point.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: I have had a lot of people, because I've done uh five child uh children's books, I've had an awful lot of people ask me, oh, how should I do this?
10:37
SPEAKER_00: Uh, what do you suggest?
10:39
SPEAKER_00: How do you do this?
10:40
SPEAKER_00: How do you do that?
10:41
SPEAKER_00: I've done some seminars on on how to do that.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: One of the things, and then probably the biggest issue that I deal with with people who are looking at doing a children's book is keeping it age appropriate.
10:54
SPEAKER_00: In other words, if you're making uh you you pretty much, when you're doing a book, you have to decide what is the age range.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: Is it say two to five?
11:04
SPEAKER_00: Is it six to twelve?
11:06
SPEAKER_00: What is the age range?
11:07
SPEAKER_00: Because it makes a huge difference.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: And I have had so many people come to me with their manuscript, so to speak.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: Well, look at this and tell me what you think.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: And you can make three or four or five books out of that one little bit that they think is one book, but you're going to so lose a small child in that.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: It has to be very simplistic.
11:30
SPEAKER_00: If it's kind of sing song, you know, you look at think Dr.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: Seuss.
11:34
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
11:35
SPEAKER_00: Rhyming uh or Shell Silverstein, you know, rhyming, silly, um, active.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: Uh, there's all these things to remember when you're writing a small child's book.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: And that's what most of mine, well, all of mine have been for small children, like ages two to five or two to six.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: And so the fewer words, the better, the more cadence that you can have to those sentences, the better.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: Rhyming, they like that, that kind of thing.
12:04
SPEAKER_00: So that yeah, it's very different than writing even, say, a young adult book.
12:09
SPEAKER_03: That is fascinating because I'm I'm a college professor, and so I I think sometimes educationally with things, you know, I'm a college prof on my day job.
12:20
SPEAKER_03: But I imagine when you get to kids' books, it's even so much more critical because you know, a kid that is two to five years old is so much uh mentally, emotionally, and education-wise different than a six or seven-year-old.
12:33
SPEAKER_03: I'm obviously I'm not a not an educator of kids that age, so I can't speak with a lot of intelligence with that, but I can imagine that's a vast difference and having to keep what their vocabulary words are in mind and all that.
12:45
SPEAKER_03: That's that sounds really, really intricate.
12:48
SPEAKER_00: It is, and um, it's I love words.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: I am a wordaholic in many respects.
12:56
SPEAKER_00: Every week, uh every Sunday, I have a word of the of the week for uh a bunch of my grandchildren that we FaceTime with.
13:04
SPEAKER_00: And um, that word is usually big words that they love learning.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: Things like um heinous was one that they that's a better word.
13:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, serendipitous.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: Um uh I'm trying to all of a sudden my mind has gone blank, but there's so many big words.
13:28
SPEAKER_00: The the word we had this week was logi, and my husband didn't know what that word was.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: We used it in a word, I used it in a word game, and he's goes, what on earth is that?
13:38
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's being dazed, confused, just uh kind of out of out of sync.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: And so we we do words, and I I know that my grandkids are aware of a lot of words that a lot of kids their age are not, but I've learned through watching my grandchildren what words do they understand and how do you explain it to them.
14:00
SPEAKER_00: Yes, you can look for context clues, but when a small child is two, three, four, five years old, they're not looking so much for context cues cubes cues, they don't understand the words, so you got to keep it rather simplistic.
14:15
SPEAKER_03: That makes sense.
14:16
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
14:17
SPEAKER_03: Now, speaking of book layouts and design and all that fun stuff, beside myself, but beside myself, I'm not beside myself right now.
14:26
SPEAKER_03: I mean, beside me on my desk is a copy of your excellent and amazing book called Be Your Finest Art, which has one of the coolest book covers that I think I've ever seen.
14:35
SPEAKER_03: So props to whoever did your book cover.
14:38
SPEAKER_03: But this book is amazing for a lot of reasons, but also as I look through this as a as a writer myself, uh one of the things I always look at is the design and the layout and the formatting of the interior of a book.
14:50
SPEAKER_03: And I don't know what your process for doing that was, but you know, the book is about 250 pages.
14:56
SPEAKER_03: How long did it take you to go through that process of figuring out where everything goes in the book in relationship to the text and all the graphics and artwork?
15:06
SPEAKER_03: I mean, this is the book is called Be Your Finest Art, but the book actually is a work of art in itself.
15:12
SPEAKER_03: It's almost like every every uh what's the word when you open a book and you're looking at two pages at once?
15:19
SPEAKER_03: Every spread.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: Every spread or layout, yeah.
15:22
SPEAKER_03: Okay, so every spread is is literally like a work of art.
15:26
SPEAKER_03: So I'm curious about your process of figuring all that out and how long did that take you and and what was that like to do the layout for this book that is so beautiful to look at?
15:37
SPEAKER_00: You are so kind.
15:40
SPEAKER_00: Uh you're what the way you describe it is exactly the way I feel about it.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: It is a work of art.
15:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, to answer your question about the cover, we did I I had an idea, I wanted it to look old.
15:53
SPEAKER_00: And again, Rose Goss, who did my illustrations for my children's books, by the way, she did two children's books, I think, before I ever met her in person.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: We've just worked so well together, but she reads me pretty well, and she came up with this.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: I thought she did an amazing job on it.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: It looks very old and um and and we had it printed in China, so it it it they did an excellent job of uh you can even feel there's like a compass on the front, and you can feel its raised letters.
16:28
SPEAKER_03: Yes, I'm feeling literally right now, and I love that embossed feeling.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh caressing my book also.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so when you open up the book, on the pages, I I did this, I co-authored this with an uh an artist friend named Dorsey McHugh.
16:47
SPEAKER_00: She's an excellent artist, and her artists sold all over the world.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: Uh, she on the pages that she really put her input, her words, they have on the edges of the pages pieces from her works of art.
17:04
SPEAKER_03: No way.
17:06
SPEAKER_00: And on the pages that I spoke directly, it has um little excerpts from pieces of my art.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: So um that's that made it kind of colorful, but then I wanted lots of pictures.
17:22
SPEAKER_00: Here's what I had in mind.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: I had done five children's books, I wanted it to be an adult picture book.
17:31
SPEAKER_03: I could see that.
17:32
SPEAKER_03: I could totally see that.
17:33
SPEAKER_00: So that people don't lose interest, but they want to keep going.
17:36
SPEAKER_00: So there's lots of pictures.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: I've uh I've interviewed about 40 some, I think, um, people in here that have artistic lives because of what they do occupationally that you wouldn't necessarily think of as being artists.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: We think of artists as somebody that picks up a piece uh a uh put has a canvas and picks up a brush and starts painting, or has a uh a musical piece and they sit down on the piano and they do that, whatever.
18:09
SPEAKER_00: Those are artists in our heads, but we don't sometimes think of other people like your hairdresser or your caterer.
18:18
SPEAKER_00: These are people that I interviewed in here, uh, a teacher or a realtor, all these different people that I interviewed in here and um showed how their lives are also very creative.
18:31
SPEAKER_00: They look at what they do artistically.
18:34
SPEAKER_00: I talked in here too a lot about just the healing power of art and what it brings out in an individual.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: I do believe sincerely, and so does Dorsey, that everybody is born creative.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's in there somewhere.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: We use it in various ways, even from the moment we dress in the morning.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: We're being creative or non-creative about it, depending on what you what your desire might be for the day.
19:03
SPEAKER_00: But um I do believe that that we all have it within us.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: It's how do we bring that out so that it it uh glorifies everything that we do.
19:13
SPEAKER_00: That it I feel like after I became an artist, I started seeing in 3D and hearing in high def.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: So it it just changes things.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: So I we talk a lot about that in the book.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: It's a fun book, and I've had we've had great response to it.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: I also, while we're on that subject, would love to offer the book.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: It's a$25 book, it's a heavy, thick book.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: It's it is done.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I would like to offer it to your listeners for$10 plus shipping, and um, I'd be happy to do that as a discount for your listeners.
19:47
SPEAKER_03: Awesome.
19:48
SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
19:49
SPEAKER_03: I'll have a link to that in the show notes and we can figure out the links and stuff after the call or via email or something.
19:54
SPEAKER_03: But I yeah, I I just look at the book and I it's fun to read, it but it's fun to look at.
20:01
SPEAKER_03: And I told somebody not too long ago that it's interesting because so many books that are written on the creative process are kind of boring to look at.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
20:11
SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
20:12
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I do, and that's exactly what I wanted to avoid.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: I wanted it to be fun, just like a children's book is fun, you know.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: Adults enjoy reading children's books.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: We enjoy read with watching children's movies, so I wanted it to be fun for adults.
20:28
SPEAKER_03: One of the things that there were many things in the book that I really felt convicted by and that really spoke to me.
20:34
SPEAKER_03: One of the things that I really loved was you have a section on listening, which I wasn't expecting.
20:41
SPEAKER_03: You know, we don't normally associate the creative process and art with listening.
20:46
SPEAKER_03: Today we're recording this.
20:47
SPEAKER_03: This is March the 16th.
20:48
SPEAKER_03: This episode will come out, I think, on April the 3rd, so in a couple weeks or so.
20:52
SPEAKER_03: We're right in the midst of this coronavirus pandemic thing, people are going crazy.
20:57
SPEAKER_03: You know, you go to the store and there's shelves that are empty and all that stuff.
21:02
SPEAKER_03: How can we listen in this kind of crazy environment?
21:06
SPEAKER_03: And what what what does that take within us?
21:09
SPEAKER_03: What kind of empathy do we need to develop?
21:11
SPEAKER_03: What what needs to happen within our own hearts that we can listen and we can truly bring some creativity to the world and some goodness to the world through just being better listeners?
21:22
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's an ongoing issue, I think, Kent.
21:26
SPEAKER_00: Um we get so busy in our lives, we have so many experiences, many highs, many lows, everything.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of extremes, and we like to tell everybody else about it, and we get so caught up in that sometimes that we fail to listen to other people.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: I find uh we had a uh a gentleman here, and I and I interviewed him uh in the Be Your Finest Art book, who had was a listening coach, which I thought was extremely interesting.
21:56
SPEAKER_00: And I talked to him quite a bit about being a coach.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Listening coach.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: He teaches people like he's done a lot of groups for Chick-fil-A, for instance, for management in teaching them how to be better listeners for their customers and for their employees.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: We need to uh sometimes sit back and put uh re uh what do I want to say?
22:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh not think about what we are doing or what we have to offer or how we can fix something or how we can, what advice we might have.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: Listen, I've I've learned this the hard way uh through the years.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: I've lived a lot of decades and I've recognized, I've learned to recognize that sometimes I just need to keep my mouth shut.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: I need to just be a listener because that's often what people need.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: They just need somebody to hear them out to validate them.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: If it's a feeling, if it's feelings that they are they're having, even if they seem silly, even if they seem crazy, they just want to be heard.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: Just let them speak.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: And I I I also um I feel that we have a tendency to always want to be thinking about what we're going to respond to somebody when they're talking, instead of really listening to what they are saying, processing that, validating them, and then going on.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: If they ask your advice, great.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: But we don't have to come, it's not about always about us.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: We live in an awfully self-centered society sometimes.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: It's all about us.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: So listening is a is something that I I speak a lot about, and also um I do a I do coaching, and I the the one thing I have learned a lot is that people can help themselves tremendously by just being vocal about what their feelings are or what their situation is.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: They can work out their own issues by just being quiet.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: Counselors have been doing it for years.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: We need to learn.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: That is so true.
24:06
unknown: Yeah.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: Does that answer your question?
24:08
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
24:09
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
24:10
SPEAKER_03: I think any anybody who who's listening who's ever been married, you know, can definitely relate to that too, because so much of any kind of an intimate relationship, even if it's not a marriage relationship, but with your kids or with your parents or grandparents or grandkids, man, so many times it's hard to listen.
24:29
SPEAKER_03: We just want to solve the problem and move on to the next thing instead of listening empathetically and really engaging and not having.
24:35
SPEAKER_03: And I can only speak from a man's perspective, you know.
24:38
SPEAKER_03: We men sometimes are pretty bad about that.
24:40
SPEAKER_03: We just want to give the solution and let's fix it and move on instead of just sometimes people just want to be listened to and heard.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: You are so right.
24:47
SPEAKER_00: I had a an example, I used it in one of my other books, um, Creating a Haven of Peace.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, years ago, oh, probably 20 some years ago, my daughter-in-law came over and she was ranting and raving about my daughter, my son.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: She was not happy with him.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: And there were some very good reasons why she wasn't happy with them.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: Hey, I love my kids, they're not perfect, and I know that.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: And my daughters-in-law feel safe in being able to talk to me about that, just as I used to feel very safe in talking to my mother-in-law, whom I was quite close to.
25:25
SPEAKER_00: But she came over one day and she was just going on and on.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: And I stood there for a long time, and then I started giving her all these things that she might try to do, and that and that I my my input.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: And she says, I'm not asking you to fix it.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: I just want you to look.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, Kent, that it was like a slap in the face, not in a in a mean way or a negative way, but it was like, well, yes, why do I constantly think I've got to fix everything?
25:54
SPEAKER_00: It's because it's the mother in me, I think, and and the parent in me, whether it's it would be if Dan would be the same way.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: His first impression uh on listening to something like that would be to try to fix it.
26:06
SPEAKER_00: We do that so much, and sometimes that's not what's needed.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's just a listening ear.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: That's all that's needed.
26:15
SPEAKER_03: We could in the podcast interview right there if we wanted to, because that I mean, really that that's what it's all about.
26:21
SPEAKER_03: We could take that one little nugget and that would make such a huge difference in all of our relationships.
26:26
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
26:26
SPEAKER_00: It really does make a huge difference in our relationships.
26:30
SPEAKER_00: Being married to uh somebody that has two degrees in psychology has helped me to recognize that.
26:39
SPEAKER_03: So this is a a podcast called Smart Business Writing.
26:43
SPEAKER_03: So I always want to dig into the business aspect of writing a little bit if I can.
26:48
SPEAKER_03: So you're writing books that are uh creative in nature, kids' books, you have a book, Be Your Finest Art, and then your newest book is called Creating a Haven of Peace When You're Feeling Down, Finances Are Flat and Tempers Are Rising.
27:02
SPEAKER_03: These obviously are projects that are all coming from your heart, coming from your life experience.
27:06
SPEAKER_03: And it it's really obvious, these are heart, uh I don't know if that's a term, but a heart-based project as opposed to just writing a book and trying to get business from it.
27:16
SPEAKER_03: You know, not that there's anything wrong with that, to quote Seinfeld.
27:20
SPEAKER_03: But but that's a different kind of a book.
27:22
SPEAKER_03: In your mind, as a writer, how do you balance those two concerns?
27:26
SPEAKER_03: Because, you know, a book is such an intensive project.
27:29
SPEAKER_03: You want it to be successful financially, you want it to be successful business-wise, you want it to lead to perhaps coaching opportunities or other things.
27:37
SPEAKER_03: How do you balance that with just the impulse to say something and have a message in spite of whether of whether it sells as a book?
27:45
SPEAKER_03: How do you balance those the business and the creative concerns as a writer?
27:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm probably Kent somewhat an anomaly with your listening audience in that I have never felt like I was writing a book just to make money from it, which I really think is helpful in making it a book that is from the heart.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: Where my writing is always straight from my heart.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: I love writing.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: That's my first creative love, much more so than painting or teaching art or whatever else I do.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: I love to write.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: So it comes easy for me.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: It's not difficult, and it comes straight from the heart.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, I have tried to make everything I've worked on be something that tugs at somebody else's heart.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: Probably somebody who is an intellectual who reads books far beyond me would not be as interested in them as people who are, especially women.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: And I know that probably my the my largest audience is is women, uh, they are going to res there's going to be things in my books that are going to resonate with them.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: And I that's what that's what my goal is.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: And when all else fails, Kent, seriously, it sometimes a writer has to get it out.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: That's the main goal.
29:21
SPEAKER_00: If I don't make a bundle of money on it, it's okay.
29:25
SPEAKER_00: I have left a legacy for my family, I have gotten it out.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: Uh it's been a fun process.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like doing a painting.
29:33
SPEAKER_00: I taught, I tell artists all the time that the process should be a lot of fun.
29:38
SPEAKER_00: If it's not, and your your goal is just okay, I got to get one more painting done so I can make a buck on it.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: You're not gonna do good art.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: It's not going to be the same, and you're not gonna be having fun.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: For me, it's always been great fun.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: It's never been high pressure, got to get this done.
29:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, I've got to make some money on this, I've got to put food on the table.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm fortunate in that I don't have to do this as my bread and butter.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: So I've never really looked at it in that way.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: I've looked at it in how can I resonate with my readers?
30:11
SPEAKER_03: Maybe that's the best way to become a best-selling author because I can't think of any books that I have read that are popular or that have been bestsellers that I have felt like were just written to make money.
30:23
SPEAKER_03: They all seem like they're coming from the author's heart.
30:25
SPEAKER_03: So maybe that's kind of the ironic key about all this is if you want a book to be good and to resonate with people, it has to come from a place of not of just of business, but really from your heart.
30:35
SPEAKER_03: And you have a message that resonates with you and you want to impact people's lives.
30:40
SPEAKER_00: It's very true.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: Very right on.
30:42
SPEAKER_00: And I I I believe that uh when you well, look at some of many of your best-selling books have been books that have really touched the heart.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: Whether it's a fiction book or a non-fiction book, and you look at authors who have done even great children's books, they wrote them first for their own children, came from the heart for their own children, and then has turned into great successful books.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: I think that's where it's got to start.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, the money has always been secondary to me.
31:16
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think that there are a lot, it's amazing to me and to my husband, who talks to a lot of people who want to be aspiring artists, or not artists, well, artists too, but uh writers, that they there are quite a few of them who say, I really want to write a book, but I hate writing.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: Okay, really?
31:37
SPEAKER_00: Seriously?
31:38
SPEAKER_00: Then why would you even consider writing a book?
31:42
SPEAKER_00: Now I know that you are interested in ghostwriting, and there are people out there who do amazing jobs.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: We have dear friends who are ghostwriters and do an amazing job and have best-selling books as ghostwriters.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: That's a there's a real place for that.
31:57
SPEAKER_00: If you don't enjoy the process, but you have a really good message you want to get out, that you're dying to get out, then hire somebody else to do it.
32:06
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
32:09
SPEAKER_03: Not everybody is gifted or has the patience to sit down and and write a book or can really think organizationally taking these concepts and putting them into an outline and all that.
32:17
SPEAKER_03: And yes, but likewise, and then they shouldn't feel bad about that.
32:21
SPEAKER_03: Just like people who write shouldn't feel bad that maybe they don't enjoy public speaking as much or doing other types of communication as much, video or whatever.
32:29
SPEAKER_03: So everybody has their thing that they like doing, and you know, there's something to be said for sticking in the lane that we really are gifted in and that we enjoy.
32:38
SPEAKER_00: I totally agree.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're right on about that.
32:41
SPEAKER_03: Now I do want to explore a little bit this question of self-publishing versus more traditional publishing avenues, because that's a question that I talk with people a lot, and it's something that causes a lot of writers to lose sleep because they they maybe I'm being a little dramatic, but maybe not, maybe not though, because some people wonder what should I do?
33:03
SPEAKER_03: Should I go this route or go this route?
33:04
SPEAKER_03: And sometimes when they get paralyzed, not knowing what they should do, they just don't do anything.
33:10
SPEAKER_03: So with your newest book uh uh Creating a Haven of Peace, you publish that with Morgan James, which is not I I don't know if I would call Morgan James a traditional publisher, the more of a hybrid, I guess is the best terminology.
33:23
SPEAKER_03: Really, really wonderful people, such such great people.
33:26
SPEAKER_03: What was your decision based on in going with that route for for this book as opposed to doing it yourself?
33:32
SPEAKER_03: Because be your finest art, that was you did that yourself, correct?
33:37
SPEAKER_00: Yes, we did.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: We self-published that in uh well, we have our own uh self-publishing arm called Vitalogy Vitology Press, and we published it under that.
33:47
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
33:48
SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:50
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
33:51
SPEAKER_03: So take us through a little bit the decision-making process through through that, you know, going with Morgan James or going with something else besides your own publishing arm versus doing it yourself.
34:03
SPEAKER_00: I think for a lot of people, publishing in general is or thinking of completing a book and getting it published or publishing it yourself, either way, is extremely intimidating.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle.
34:16
SPEAKER_00: If I had known it was really hard.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: Let's just go back to uh my first children's book, the first thing I ever did.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: It was just a simple children's book.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: It was like 48 pages of mostly illustration and this nice little rhyming poem that I put to the book.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: Wasn't that difficult to write, wasn't that difficult to illustrate.
34:37
SPEAKER_00: Lord have mercy.
34:38
SPEAKER_00: The papers and the forms and things I filled out just to get it self-published.
34:43
SPEAKER_03: I can imagine.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: I didn't do it through uh just a uh uh local printer, I did it through an arm of Ingram Publishing, which is uh Ingram is the largest book publisher in the world, I believe, at this point.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: And they are um or book distributor, I should say, not publisher, but they have an arm for doing self-publishing.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: You have to have things laid out perfectly, you have to have it camera ready.
35:17
SPEAKER_00: That's the hard part about doing self-publishing.
35:20
SPEAKER_00: Most people think, well, it's just easy.
35:22
SPEAKER_00: You just take it to your local printer and they'll put it all together.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: And no, you have to have it perfectly ready, aligned on the page, keeping in mind the margins for uh for the um, what do you call it, the binding, and uh all the things that has to be done.
35:41
SPEAKER_00: There are so the sizes, the the page count, the um paper, the size, the the type of paper, the cut, the amount of colors, so many decisions to be made.
35:55
SPEAKER_00: I thought I'd go crazy.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: I was determined I was going to get through it, and I was so glad I did.
36:02
SPEAKER_00: But honestly, afterwards I thought, I don't know how most people do this.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: It was it's not as easy as you think.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: Now, it's maybe a little different if you're writing just words, but at that point I was doing just children's books, and there was a lot more involved with it.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: So that, yeah, the self-publishing I've done mostly until we came to the um creating a haven of peace.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: And then my last children's book was also um what if it were possible?
36:31
SPEAKER_00: I did through Morgan James.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: Morgan James is a, like you said, a hybrid.
36:36
SPEAKER_00: It it gives you the option to uh with Morgan James to be in bookstores across the country or the world.
36:44
SPEAKER_00: It gives you options to have translations made, foreign translations of your book.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: Uh it gives you it, it puts you in the catalogs for stores and and uh uh book buyers to buy your book uh seasonally.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: Uh let's see, it gives you a lot of options.
37:07
SPEAKER_00: They did the covers, for instance.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: If you'll notice, uh we talked about the cover of the Be Your Finest Art.
37:14
SPEAKER_00: Well, the one for creating a Haven of Peace has a really nice soft feel to it.
37:20
SPEAKER_00: I like their uh the way they do their books.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: They also have a great team that came up with several designs as possibilities for my cover.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, I loved what they did.
37:35
SPEAKER_00: They what I did was they gave me several options, and I took the parts that I like from those options and said, now put this together with this and this color and this size, etc.
37:46
SPEAKER_00: And let's you let's go with that.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: And it they did a great job.
37:49
SPEAKER_00: I have seen many books through Morgan James.
37:53
SPEAKER_00: Everyone has a gorgeous cover on them, they do a really good job.
37:58
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I know David Hancock, who's the owner and founder of Morgan James, I know him well.
38:03
SPEAKER_00: He's in my husband's mastermind group.
38:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh, he's a dear friend.
38:08
SPEAKER_00: He will bend over backwards to make sure that you are comfortable with what you're doing.
38:13
SPEAKER_00: So they have a team that will work with you, more so even, I think, than with traditional publishers.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: They really do go uh uh the extra mile.
38:23
SPEAKER_00: Uh traditional publishing, whole different ballgame.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: And it's very, very difficult to get into traditional publishing.
38:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: Almost impossible unless you're already a bestseller.
38:35
SPEAKER_03: I have uh I've interviewed a lot of people for my podcast over the years, and uh I've interviewed probably I don't know if I'd have to go back and count five, six, seven, eight people who have had books with Morgan James, and 100% of the time they say it was a great experience.
38:50
SPEAKER_03: They love the company, and it's just it's so refreshing to have a publisher have an author's back.
38:56
SPEAKER_03: Now, I haven't done a book with them myself.
38:58
SPEAKER_03: I'd I'd love to, and I got some ideas for a book, but it's so rare and unusual for that to be the case.
39:05
SPEAKER_03: So, I mean, it's it's no surprise they're having enormous success with other books.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: They are they're having some great success with other books.
39:13
SPEAKER_00: They've got books that are uh well, in fact, my husband uh just is coming out with the 20th anniversary edition of 48 Days to the Work You Love, although this time it's going to be 48 Days to the Work and Life You Love, and there's been a lot added to it and a lot revision in that book uh for the 20th anniversary, and that is now going to be through Morgan James.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: He's done the Spanish version of his uh of that book too with Morgan James.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: So he's uh he's also pretty much sold on it.
39:46
SPEAKER_00: It's a good it's a good balance between doing it all yourself in self-publishing and going the traditional route, which is almost impossible.
39:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a good, it's a good middle-of-the-road um venue, and it's becoming more and more popular with a lot of they they have uh all genres and uh all types of people who are authors that have been authors for a long time that are switching to doing it this way rather than either the self-publishing route or the traditional route.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: So it it's a good it's a good option, I think.
40:23
SPEAKER_03: Oh, absolutely.
40:24
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
40:25
SPEAKER_03: And I I do talk to to people occasionally who are still stuck on traditional publishing.
40:30
SPEAKER_03: And I guess the more time that I spend around people who are either doing self-publishing well or they're with Morgan James or doing something beside traditional publishing, I just want to go, why do you want to wait like two years to get your book out there and go through all that rigmarole?
40:46
SPEAKER_03: And and I I know people who are for traditional publishing, they have their reasons and they can sometimes argue those points very well.
40:52
SPEAKER_03: But I guess honestly, the the I've been listening to Dan's podcast for so long.
40:58
SPEAKER_03: I'm I have it so ingrained, this entrepreneurial mindset of I gotta do it myself and I want to do it my way.
41:02
SPEAKER_03: And I don't want to wait for anybody, I don't want to wait on those gatekeepers that I that's just been driven into my mind for so long that it would be hard to really um it's not even so much the timeline, but just the idea of losing your intellectual property really is a big deal.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: It is a big deal.
41:21
SPEAKER_00: Uh I know that one of the books that my husband did, and I won't even say which one, uh, through one of the traditional, very well-known publishers, uh, there was an editor there who worked with him on that particular edition who stripped so much of out of it that he felt like by the time it was finished, it wasn't really his book anymore.
41:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, it happens all the time.
41:49
SPEAKER_00: It does.
41:49
SPEAKER_00: And I I have another friend who went with another uh very well-known publisher who felt the same way.
41:56
SPEAKER_00: So that's that's a common complaint.
41:59
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you end up with something that's not even, it doesn't even sound like your voice and it's not your heart.
42:05
SPEAKER_00: And that's that's really sad for somebody that's spent a lot of time and effort and money on getting something uh uh done in a traditional way.
42:15
SPEAKER_00: But what but going back to something else you alluded to is the time frame.
42:19
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes somebody's got a message they really want to get out.
42:23
SPEAKER_00: Well, you look at Dan and me, we're both in our 70s at this point.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: I do not want to wait years down the road to get it out traditionally.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: I want to get it out now, I want to get it out quickly so that I don't have to wait a year or two years down the road just to get by then I've forgotten what I wrote, you know.
42:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:43
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's some of the drawbacks of doing it traditionally, as well as the fact that they just don't take a whole lot of new authors anymore.
42:52
SPEAKER_03: So, Joanne, as we start to wind this down, I've got one one more question, actually maybe two more.
42:58
SPEAKER_03: Um for those who are thinking about writing a book, they've they're toying with this idea, they're hearing what you're saying, they they maybe are are thinking about all the benefits of writing a book.
43:08
SPEAKER_03: How would you say that being an author has has changed your life?
43:11
SPEAKER_03: What what has happened in your life and in the lives of other people because you chose to write books that would not have happened otherwise?
43:19
SPEAKER_00: Well, for one thing, I've met some amazing people just in interviewing, uh found out more about them, have had uh the questions that I'm asked stimulate my thinking and help me get inspired to do more.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: Um that's part of it.
43:37
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think also it's opened up doors.
43:40
SPEAKER_00: You when you become an author, there's this perception in America, especially, I think, that if you have written a book, you have something of value to offer the world that makes you makes people look at you differently.
43:57
SPEAKER_02: It's true.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: It's true.
43:59
SPEAKER_00: I Don't care what you've written or or even how well it's written, if somebody has a book in hand, it's the fanciest, best calling card you can possibly have.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: And so it's opened up a lot of doors for me, but I I also need to backtrack here a little bit, going back to the fact that I am an artist.
44:21
SPEAKER_00: I started taking art back in 2002, not having any art in my background, not having any inkling that I could do art, that I could draw, or that I could paint, or whatever.
44:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I took drawing classes, basic drawing classes for 12 years.
44:40
SPEAKER_00: I got to the point where I just I paid my teacher to be my friend because I just enjoyed it.
44:46
SPEAKER_00: I knew I had more to learn and I knew I needed to stick with it.
44:49
SPEAKER_00: But it was doing that, doing something creative like that that stimulated my brain in a way that helped me to be able to get into my writing like I never had before.
45:05
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't until I started doing those art classes that I ever would have thought of that I would write a book.
45:13
SPEAKER_00: It was after that.
45:14
SPEAKER_00: They doing the art, the creating, the drawing, painting, that kind of thing, gave me the confidence to say, I can do this book, I can do this, I can do this.
45:27
SPEAKER_00: So I think it all the more things we do like that creatively does nothing but help inspire us to do more and give us the self-confidence to do it and to do it well.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: It's certainly helped me.
45:42
SPEAKER_00: That's the way it's worked for me.
45:44
SPEAKER_00: It's opened up an awful lot of doors I don't think I would have had otherwise.
45:48
SPEAKER_03: What's next on your radar screen for your writing or for your art?
45:53
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's kind of an interesting question for me right now because I'm kind of in a transitional uh time where we're planning to make a move to Florida.
46:04
SPEAKER_00: And there are art communities down there that are unbelievable.
46:10
SPEAKER_00: Even more so, I live in Williamson County, Tennessee.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of artists and a lot of art things that go on here, but there uh the area that we're looking to move to has a huge art community, a huge art center.
46:24
SPEAKER_00: It's so big it even has its own restaurant.
46:26
SPEAKER_00: And uh that's I intend to do more feeding myself instead of doing the teaching and the leading and that kind of thing.
46:35
SPEAKER_00: I want to do things that um that feed me for a while.
46:39
SPEAKER_00: I haven't done that a whole lot in a while.
46:42
SPEAKER_00: So that's that's one of my goals art artistically.
46:45
SPEAKER_00: Uh writing also is something that I want to do a lot more of.
46:50
SPEAKER_00: I've got a couple of books in mind.
46:53
SPEAKER_00: One of them is on um uh raising abnormal kids.
46:59
SPEAKER_00: It's interesting that we get so many questions.
47:03
SPEAKER_00: We have three very entrepreneurial kids.
47:07
SPEAKER_00: Many of your listeners probably know them through their podcasts.
47:11
SPEAKER_00: They all three have podcasts.
47:12
SPEAKER_00: Our oldest son, Kevin, is the host for the Zig Ziglar podcast.
47:16
SPEAKER_00: It's wildly successful.
47:18
SPEAKER_00: Uh my our other son, Jared, is uh the host of Noetic Podcast, which is a little out there and it's a little edgy, but it's it's good and it's deep.
47:29
SPEAKER_00: It's very philosophical and spiritual.
47:32
SPEAKER_00: And then our daughter Ashley has uh Mama says Namaste, that's about family marriage and and all of their travels all over the United States for the last three years.
47:41
SPEAKER_00: So they are very successful in the areas that they are uh that they're in.
47:47
SPEAKER_00: And people ask me all the time, how did we raise kids like this?
47:54
SPEAKER_00: So I want to write some about it.
47:55
SPEAKER_00: How not just about from my own personal standpoint by any means, but how we can raise kids in this uh society that we have now, which is very different from when we when I was raised, uh, so that they aren't just sitting in front of a tube or a piece of uh equipment, uh technical equipment all day, playing games and socializing uh distantly and all of that.
48:21
SPEAKER_00: How can they instead become people who really give back to the world in their own ways?
48:26
SPEAKER_00: And I do feel like each of my kids are doing that.
48:29
SPEAKER_00: So I I want to I've had a lot of people ask us about that and a lot of encouragement to do that.
48:35
SPEAKER_00: So I intend to really work on that in this next year or so.
48:40
SPEAKER_03: Well, I'm sure this isn't what you want to hear because you have a lot of things on your plate already, but you would be an excellent podcast host talking about parenting, being a grandparent, all the things that you just talked about.
48:51
SPEAKER_03: I I would totally listen to that show.
48:53
SPEAKER_03: That would be phenomenal.
48:54
SPEAKER_03: I really would.
48:56
SPEAKER_00: I feel honored.
48:57
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Kent.
48:58
SPEAKER_00: Uh I have thought about doing that, and that may be something I will do.
49:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, I have a lot of irons in the fire right now, especially with transitioning, trying to uh sell property, uh move, get into new property, a new whole new environment.
49:14
SPEAKER_00: Uh I have this art class every Tuesday.
49:17
SPEAKER_00: They are so not wanting me to leave.
49:19
SPEAKER_00: So we're talking about doing Zoom classes where we actually are all in our own studios, but yet can convene together and see each other and talk to each other each week.
49:31
SPEAKER_00: So maybe doing some of that too.
49:33
SPEAKER_00: But um a lot of things going on right now.
49:36
SPEAKER_00: But uh hey, I don't know, maybe podcasting's in the future.
49:39
SPEAKER_00: I don't plan I don't plan to sit around and grow old.
49:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's kind of boring.
49:44
SPEAKER_00: It is.
49:44
SPEAKER_03: That's really boring.
49:45
SPEAKER_00: Not in my not in my vocabulary, not gonna happen.
49:49
SPEAKER_03: Joanne, what is the best way for people to connect with you and find out more about your work, uh your works, your work and your books?
49:55
SPEAKER_00: Well, I have a uh a website.
49:57
SPEAKER_00: It's Joanne F.
49:58
SPEAKER_00: Miller, and that's J-O-A-N-N-E F Miller.com and you can get books, my books there.
50:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, I will you can also you know, I'm not even sure right now.
50:15
SPEAKER_00: I have to look again to see what the price is on my books.
50:19
SPEAKER_00: I want to give your your custom your uh listeners a discount on the books.
50:26
SPEAKER_00: So best way probably to do that would be to have them just contact me directly through email.
50:34
SPEAKER_00: And that's I'm I don't mind answering their emails.
50:37
SPEAKER_00: I answer questions for people all the time.
50:40
SPEAKER_00: And that is Joanne at Joannefmiller.com.
50:44
SPEAKER_03: Awesome.
50:45
SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
50:46
SPEAKER_00: You're very welcome.
50:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm happy to uh answer questions uh by email, and I would be happy to give discounts to all the these two books that we've been talking about to all of your listeners.
50:58
SPEAKER_03: That's great.
50:58
SPEAKER_03: Well, I appreciate your generosity and and I appreciate you as a person and all the goodness you're putting out into the world through your kids' books and your artwork and your books.
51:07
SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's just a whole plethora of good things coming out of the Miller family and the Miller household, and specifically your your hands and your mind through your creative work and through your artwork.
51:18
SPEAKER_03: It's just awesome.
51:19
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
51:20
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
51:20
SPEAKER_00: I enjoy yours also, Kent.
51:23
SPEAKER_00: So we're mutual, we've we've got a mutual admiration for you.
51:27
SPEAKER_03: And that's okay.
51:27
SPEAKER_03: That's cool.
51:28
SPEAKER_03: I love it.
51:31
SPEAKER_03: Hey, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Joanne.
51:34
SPEAKER_03: Before I close out this episode, I want to share three big takeaways from our conversation.
51:41
SPEAKER_03: Number one, don't write a book just for money.
51:45
SPEAKER_03: It must come from the heart.
51:47
SPEAKER_03: And man, this is so true, isn't it?
51:50
SPEAKER_03: There are a lot of people who take the approach of writing to market, which means you're writing for a specific market and it's a calculated decision to write for that specific niche so you can increase sales.
52:01
SPEAKER_03: And there's nothing wrong with that, of course.
52:03
SPEAKER_03: That's one great way that you can make money as a writer and serve a particular niche.
52:07
SPEAKER_03: But I also really love Joanne's approach of speaking from your heart, of having something to say that comes from inside of you, of really sharing your heart with people in your books.
52:18
SPEAKER_03: And I don't think those two things are necessarily opposed.
52:21
SPEAKER_03: You can write from your heart and also make money at the same time.
52:25
SPEAKER_03: But it's rare, I think, that you can make money from a book that doesn't come from your heart to some extent.
52:31
SPEAKER_03: Anything that connects with readers has to first come out of your heart, which means that it first has to connect with you.
52:39
SPEAKER_03: Takeaway number two, we don't use the powerful tool of listening nearly enough.
52:46
SPEAKER_03: One of the unexpected themes from Joanne's amazing book, Be Your Finest Art, is the power of listening.
52:53
SPEAKER_03: She talks about the power of listening to others, of listening to nature, and also listening to your own soul.
53:01
SPEAKER_03: We don't slow down and listen enough.
53:04
SPEAKER_03: I know I'm guilty of that for sure.
53:06
SPEAKER_03: And Joanne's book convinced me to try and do a better job of slowing down and really listening to others.
53:13
SPEAKER_03: In fact, if right now, if you saw what I'm seeing, so right now I'm I use a script for my podcast.
53:20
SPEAKER_03: I don't follow the script exactly, but I follow it fairly close because I'm not good at just sort of talking and rambling and making stuff up on the fly.
53:27
SPEAKER_03: I've got to have kind of a guide to go by.
53:29
SPEAKER_03: And literally every single episode I have written at the top of my notes or my script slow down in big capital letters with uh three stars on each side, and it's highlighted in this big yellow bolt thing.
53:45
SPEAKER_03: That's because I tend to just rush through things.
53:48
SPEAKER_03: I tend to want to just rush through onto the next thing so I can complete my tasks.
53:52
SPEAKER_03: But man, we've got to slow down, we've got to listen.
53:55
SPEAKER_03: And that is really tough for those of us who are task-oriented.
54:00
SPEAKER_03: Okay, let's move on to takeaway number three, which is the process of writing and creating should be fun.
54:08
SPEAKER_03: You know, somehow when we go to school, it can easily suck the life out of any fun that we had writing.
54:14
SPEAKER_03: I mean, how many people can truly say they they just loved learning to conjugate verbs in English class?
54:20
SPEAKER_03: I mean, and no offense to any English teachers out there, but most memories that people have related to learning to write in school are not necessarily pleasant.
54:28
SPEAKER_03: So if you're one of those English teachers who makes it fun, God bless you, you're an amazing gift to humanity because that is so, so important that people love, that people learn to love writing and that they have teachers who can help them to love that expression and love the process of communicating well through writing.
54:46
SPEAKER_03: Our creative work should be fun, it should be interesting, it should be enjoyable and fulfilling.
54:52
SPEAKER_03: And as we get older, we have to continue holding on to that playful spirit as adults.
54:58
SPEAKER_03: I know it's hard to do because we have responsibilities, we have kids to raise, many of us, we have projects at home.
55:05
SPEAKER_03: Yesterday, for example, I just changed out our garbage disposal in our kitchen sink.
55:09
SPEAKER_03: I mean, talk about creative work that actually it was creative because I managed to do it without electrocuting myself.
55:17
SPEAKER_03: And so I give myself at least some credit for that.
55:20
SPEAKER_03: That was good.
55:21
SPEAKER_03: You know, we have business things that we're working on, we have lots of things happening in life, but let's make sure that we're taking time to be curious, to explore, and to develop a playful attitude toward life.
55:33
SPEAKER_03: That's one of the huge takeaways of Joanne's book.
55:35
SPEAKER_03: Um, so I really encourage you to get that book.
55:37
SPEAKER_03: It's really, really good.
55:40
SPEAKER_03: Well, those are three important takeaways.
55:42
SPEAKER_03: Uh, I love this conversation with Joanne.
55:44
SPEAKER_03: She's really just not just a wonderful writer, uh, and I mean that in all sincerity.
55:49
SPEAKER_03: She is she's really a gifted writer.
55:51
SPEAKER_03: You know, there are a lot of people who who write books, and they're they're capable writers, but you can tell like writing is not really their gift.
55:59
SPEAKER_03: They just they do it as part of their business.
56:01
SPEAKER_03: And there's nothing wrong with that at all.
56:02
SPEAKER_03: I mean, anybody who writes a book, I'd I totally respect that.
56:06
SPEAKER_03: But there are some people that just have a gift for language, and Joanne is absolutely one of those people.
56:12
SPEAKER_03: I love to read her writing.
56:13
SPEAKER_03: It's just it's just really, really good.
56:15
SPEAKER_03: So I encourage you to get that book because it's really gonna encourage you in your spirit.
56:20
SPEAKER_03: And by the way, uh I want to say thanks to Joanne for making the time out of her busy schedule to be a guest in this episode.
56:27
SPEAKER_03: I've just really enjoyed chatting with you.
56:29
SPEAKER_03: And as always, thank you for listening.
56:32
SPEAKER_03: This show would would not mean anything without listeners.
56:35
SPEAKER_03: So thank you for listening and taking the time out to uh spend some time with me and my guests.
56:41
SPEAKER_03: As always, remember that you can find lots more resources for writers and creatives at my website, which is KentSanders.net.
56:49
SPEAKER_03: And until next time, remember that your writing has the power to change people's lives.
56:54
SPEAKER_03: I'll see you in the next episode.