Latest / Transforming: Tales of Business Evolution / Governance Series: Implementing Operating Models in Your Firm

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Governance Series: Implementing Operating Models in Your Firm · Transforming: Tales of Business Evolution

0:00
Erin Hartman: Thank you for tuning in to the special edition
0:04
Transforming, Tales of Business Evolution Podcast,
0:08
: focused on firm governance.
0:09
Erin Hartman: We hope you enjoy these
0:11
special episodes that are designed to
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tie to and enrich our brand new PCPS Governance toolkit.
0:17
Developed by AICPA.
0:19
: & CIMA,
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Erin Hartman: the PCPS team, along with Gary Thompson,
0:23
founder and principal of Thompson Consulting,
0:25
and Sarah Dobek, founder and
0:27
president of Inovautus Consulting,
0:29
the tool kit and these special podcast episodes
0:32
focus on decision making
0:34
and accountability within firms.
0:36
Whether firms are experiencing changes due
0:38
to internal growth, external market forces,
0:41
or other key triggers,
0:42
re evaluating the current governance structure
0:45
can be a game changer.
0:46
Listen to all four episodes.
0:49
The episodes are hosted by Gary and Sarah,
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and they're joined by practitioners who have
0:53
made these real life changes in their firms,
0:56
and areas including the benefits
0:58
of using an operating model,
1:00
ideas to consider related to partnership agreements,
1:03
and introducing non-CPAs into
1:06
leadership roles and setting them up for success.
1:09
In the final episode, Gary and Sarah share with
1:13
our PCPS team all
1:14
about what they've learned to drive success in firms.
1:18
Listen and learn about how proper governance
1:21
is not just something for big firms to think about.
1:23
It involves behavioral changes that are applicable
1:26
to even the smallest firms. We hope you enjoy.
1:30
Sarah Dobek: Hi. Welcome to our podcast
1:33
on operating models.
1:34
I'm Sarah Dobek with Inovautus Consulting,
1:36
and today I'm joined by my co-host, Gary Thompson.
1:39
Gary Thomson: Hi, Sarah.
1:39
Good to be with you again for this.
1:41
Sarah Dobek: We are excited to be
1:43
talking about this topic today.
1:44
It's part of our governance toolkit
1:47
that we've helped develop with the AICPA and
1:50
we've got two practitioners here today to share a little
1:53
bit more about their specific experience
1:55
with operating models.
1:56
We know this can play
1:57
a really important role as we look at
1:59
governance structure and evolving
2:01
our governance structure inside of our accounting firms.
2:04
I'd like to introduce Chris and
2:06
Amber and they'll have an opportunity to
2:08
just introduce themselves and tell you a little
2:10
bit more about their firms.
2:12
Chris, why don't you go first?
2:13
Chris Sullivan: Thanks, Sarah. I'm Chris Sullivan.
2:15
I'm the managing partner of VSH CPAs.
2:19
We're located in Bellingham, Washington,
2:21
which is about 20 minutes from Canada.
2:24
We have about 60 people,
2:27
including some offshore people,
2:30
and we're about nine million.
2:33
Sarah Dobek: Thanks so much, Chris. Amber, if
2:35
you'll give a quick introduction to everybody.
2:37
Amber Goering: Hi. I'm Amber Goering.
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I'm the CEO of Goering & Granatino,
2:42
now GG Advisors in Leewood, Kansas.
2:44
It's a suburb of Kansas City.
2:46
We are a little over 40 people,
2:48
including 11 of our offshore team in Hyderabad.
2:52
Sarah Dobek: Thanks for joining us.
2:53
We're really excited, like I said,
2:55
to talk about this topic
2:57
because it's something that I think has been
2:59
evolving quite a bit in the profession is we're watching
3:01
a lot of firms adopt various different types
3:04
of operating models, and it really
3:07
plays an important role when we think
3:09
about governance in accounting firms.
3:12
Let's jump in and let's talk a little bit about this.
3:15
I know both of you are on
3:16
EOS, Entrepreneur Operating System.
3:19
When did you select EOS as an operating model and why?
3:23
Amber, maybe we'll start with you on this one.
3:26
Sure. I was just becoming
3:28
popular in our industry
3:30
and we're a very entrepreneurial firm,
3:32
oftentimes has been an early adopter of things,
3:34
sometimes to our detriment,
3:35
sometimes to our benefit.
3:37
We had a few friends in the industry that had already
3:40
adopted it and seemed to
3:41
be working wonders for their firms.
3:43
We needed to take the next step
3:45
in scaling our firm and growing.
3:47
I think at the time, I believe it was
3:49
about 2018 when we adopted EOS.
3:52
I think we were about 10 people,
3:54
and so it seemed like the best way
3:57
to tackle that scalability for the firm.
4:01
Chris, what about you? When did you all adopt EOS, and
4:04
what led you to initially look at an operating model?
4:08
Chris Sullivan: That's great, Amber.
4:10
We're not usually early adopters,
4:12
so we actually adopted in 2021, and it was really driven
4:17
by the need to improve
4:19
our governance and to make some immediate changes.
4:23
VSH stands for three founding legacy partners.
4:29
The V had exited, and we didn't really
4:32
know how to govern efficiently and effectively.
4:36
We had a business coach who was an EOS implementor and
4:41
I knew him in the community and
4:44
he brought EOS to us in a way of,
4:46
this is the way to organize your next generation of
4:50
leadership and really drive
4:53
that growth that you're looking for in the firm.
4:56
We did that in 2021.
4:58
I would say that COVID was also
5:00
a stimulator, and you really need to make some changes.
5:05
Sarah Dobek: Chris and Amber, thank you for
5:06
sharing that as some of the foundation.
5:07
I'd love to dig into this a little bit more and
5:09
Gary, welcome you to chime in with some questions.
5:12
But EOS has an ability to not only help
5:15
you scale but really influence governance practices.
5:19
I'd love to hear a little bit more
5:21
on when you were implementing this,
5:24
not only needing a governance framework,
5:26
but what were some of the challenges your firm was
5:28
facing when you chose to really start to work on this?
5:31
What were some of those pinpoints?
5:32
Amber, do you want to jump in first?
5:34
Amber Goering: Sure, happy to. At the time again,
5:37
we were looking to scale
5:39
and we didn't know where to start.
5:41
As a visionary, I would go to
5:44
the AICPA conferences and meet
5:46
with my managing partner round table
5:48
and come home with all these ideas.
5:50
Well, as a small business,
5:51
you can't implement them all at one time.
5:54
In EOS, there's what they call
5:58
a one page plan where you look at your strategic plan,
6:02
you set your strategic plan for
6:04
the year for three years,
6:06
for 10 years out, and then you break that
6:08
down into quarterly rocks and then weekly meetings.
6:11
We religiously followed those L10 meetings.
6:14
It's a very specific iteration and structure of
6:18
a meeting that helps you
6:19
No Pun intended, gain traction but stay on track.
6:23
We update our strategic plan annually as
6:26
an executive leadership team to make
6:28
sure we are always evolving and leveling up.
6:30
Those meetings and that cadence is
6:33
very important in doing that.
6:36
Sarah Dobek: I have to imagine that vision is
6:38
such an important part of deciding where we're going.
6:41
I think one of the challenges I see when we
6:43
work with accounting firms is that
6:46
lack of clarity can really impact
6:48
our ability to make decisions at the end of the day.
6:50
It's one of the things that I valued
6:52
about EOS side no here.
6:54
I am also an EOS firm.
6:56
We use it in our organization as a consulting group.
7:01
But I've always found it
7:02
really helpful to keep everybody focused on
7:04
what is it because I've always viewed that as a filter.
7:09
Our vision is a filter to
7:11
how we make decisions on things.
7:13
Gary Thomson: For me, for many years,
7:14
I used the TOS,
7:15
which is the Thompson operating system.
7:17
I just assumed that everyone thought the same way I did.
7:21
Using Sarah's word,
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they had the same clarity that I had.
7:25
Using Amber's word, they had the same vision that I had.
7:28
Even back to Chris's comments about founding partners,
7:32
and the differences, and what I found valuable about
7:36
EOS and similar systems is it level sets for all of us,
7:42
whether we're someone new walking in
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the door or an experienced leader like Chris and Amber.
7:47
Chris and Amber, I have the privilege
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of working with your firm over time.
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I'm sure you're going to tell me that it was
7:53
the easiest thing in the world to implement EOS,
7:55
but talk about some of
7:57
the challenges because both of your firms,
7:59
you were going from Chris, in your case,
8:02
founding partners to the Next Gen on leadership.
8:05
Amber, you were one of the founding partners
8:07
and I happen to know your main other partner,
8:10
your differences in the way that you look at the world,
8:12
the way you view the profession.
8:14
Chris, maybe I'll start with you.
8:15
What were some of the challenges
8:16
as you went to implement EOS?
8:18
Chris Sullivan: There were a lot of challenges.
8:20
I'm a realist. I like to just
8:22
face them and put them on the table.
8:24
I think for VSH,
8:27
it was that we had a structure,
8:31
whether we might have
8:32
identified it as dysfunctional at the time.
8:35
We did have this structure, and we needed
8:37
to tear that apart and rebuild.
8:40
Just the act of implementing takes a time commitment.
8:46
I think, like Amber noted,
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you bring all these ideas back,
8:49
EOS being one of them,
8:51
you still have a day job.
8:53
For us, it was really
8:55
that top-level commitment with the partner group,
8:59
really gaining some effectiveness
9:02
within that group, and then being able to roll it out.
9:05
We did roll it out to
9:08
different teams at different stages.
9:12
In reflection, I'm not sure that's the most effective.
9:16
As I reflected on this topic,
9:18
the things that I would do differently would be
9:21
a bigger push in the beginning and really
9:24
getting fully foundational in the firm
9:28
versus different steps that
9:30
felt like the only way it was made possible at the time.
9:33
I think we also had to
9:35
work through some what of the form over substance.
9:38
I think the Level 10 meetings are so effective now.
9:43
We use them in all of our teams.
9:45
But at the time of implementing,
9:48
it had some element of,
9:49
we have to go in this order
9:51
and we have to have things here,
9:53
and we lost sight of
9:55
the effectiveness it was meant to provide.
9:59
Those are some of the things
10:00
that were challenging in the beginning.
10:02
One of our core values is continuous improvement,
10:05
and so I appreciate that we're always working
10:07
towards making governance just better every day.
10:11
Gary Thomson: It was easy. No problems at all.
10:13
Amber Goering: No, I don't think we had
10:15
the confidence we could implement it by ourselves.
10:17
We did invest in a consultant to help us
10:21
implement it and roll it out and get
10:23
us to that initial strategic plan.
10:25
When the challenges came, however,
10:27
it was when that consulting engagement ended to then
10:31
take our baby steps to learn how to
10:33
truly implement it and stay disciplined,
10:36
to continue it ourselves.
10:38
What it did, though,
10:39
was help me step
10:41
from working in the business to on the business.
10:44
Long before it was popular,
10:46
I stepped out from working and reviewing
10:50
tax returns to being the CEO of
10:52
the firm and just doing business
10:53
develop and practice management.
10:55
That enabled us to grow very, very quickly.
10:58
I would like to think a lot of
11:00
that points to EOS and the implementation of it.
11:04
Gary Thomson: I think one of the misunderstandings about
11:06
EOS and other similar things is
11:09
that it has a certain amount of rigidity
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to it, and that we don't have flexibility.
11:15
Amber, you mentioned you started 2017
11:18
and then COVID hit.
11:21
Maybe for both of you,
11:23
how does EOS allow you to react in speed?
11:28
Because many of us think of
11:29
EOS as process-oriented, take your time,
11:32
go through all the steps,
11:34
but it's really built to support you in
11:36
times when you have to make
11:37
critical decisions and speech.
11:39
Either one of you, maybe
11:40
start with Amber and go to Chris on.
11:42
How does EOS give you
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flexibility and speed to make tough decisions?
11:46
Amber Goering: As part of the meeting, there's
11:47
an IDS portion which is identify,
11:49
discuss and solve, and
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that's the longest portion of the meeting.
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That's where say you have
11:55
an issue you want to discuss
11:57
with your partner throughout the week,
11:58
but it's not extremely urgent.
12:00
Well, that goes on the docket for the EOS meeting,
12:02
so you're not just popping
12:04
into each other's offices, wasting time.
12:06
You can really drill down to the issues at hand,
12:08
have your executive leadership team
12:10
discuss and solve those in
12:11
that one meeting and make
12:13
the decision and assign out the action item on it,
12:16
and again, keep gaining
12:18
traction as you're moving forward.
12:20
Gary Thomson: Chris, I'm sure you never have
12:22
surprises in your role as managing partner,
12:24
but if you were to have surprises,
12:25
how does EOS help you with that?
12:28
Chris Sullivan: I fall on Amber that
12:30
I find the IDS the most effective.
12:33
As I think about prior partner meetings where we
12:36
just sit around the table invent
12:38
and not get anything done.
12:40
But the idea of solving three things
12:42
every week has really pushed us forward,
12:45
as well as the scorecard.
12:47
You start with this segue,
12:49
which is very important in our multi-faceted lives,
12:54
and then you go to the scorecard.
12:56
We continue to improve on our scorecard,
12:58
but the scorecard is really
13:00
that snapshots your dashboard.
13:02
I find that also really effective.
13:05
Amber Goering: That's a great point, Chris.
13:06
That scorecard, to just expand on it a little bit,
13:09
the KPIs that we chose for
13:11
the scorecard are not very extensive in nature.
13:14
There's only maybe 10 or 12, if that.
13:17
As long as we're paying attention to those
13:19
and truly measuring those and
13:21
constantly focusing toward the one page plan
13:25
and the strategic goal,
13:26
as long as everything we're doing feeds into that goal,
13:30
that makes us successful.
13:31
I think you're right, Chris. That's very important.
13:34
Sarah Dobek: Amber, I think what you said was really
13:37
important in this idea of scorecards.
13:40
As I work with firms,
13:41
one of the things that I see in
13:43
this evolution is that we often aren't using
13:45
the data to help us make decisions on
13:48
a daily basis and manage it.
13:50
Part of this whole governance shift in
13:52
topic isn't just about the framework,
13:55
but it's about empowering
13:56
people to lead in our organizations.
13:59
As we go through these different sizes
14:00
and we go through these governance shifts,
14:02
as leaders, we need to be able to let go,
14:04
but we still need to have a
14:06
line of sight of what we're doing.
14:07
Those KPIs are one of the elements that
14:10
give us the ability to see what's going on the business,
14:13
make sure that we're on track,
14:14
but also be able to empower the people that we've
14:17
put in those seats in order to be able to lead.
14:20
I don't think we put enough focus on that,
14:23
even though I know there's some movement
14:25
in the profession where we're focused on Power BI,
14:27
but being able to bring it back to what are
14:29
those metrics that are driving that business?
14:32
Chris Sullivan: I find that the scorecard is
14:36
training module for your lower levels,
14:40
your managers that are participating in service line.
14:45
We use EOS model throughout the firm and
14:48
each service line runs
14:50
a LTI meeting and starts with their scorecard.
14:55
These managers, in some cases, are
14:58
learning to know these KPIs to run a business,
15:02
if you will, in this small
15:03
little fashion of their department.
15:05
Amber Goering: Chris makes another great point on how
15:08
important it is to have clarity in the organization.
15:12
In all of our culture amp surveys, initially,
15:16
it became very apparent that our team members from
15:20
whatever level they were wanted
15:22
clarity in where the organization was headed.
15:25
They wanted to know that.
15:26
We started teaching them about
15:28
the KPIs, just like Chris has done,
15:30
and that's helped significantly,
15:32
not only for them to understand where
15:34
we're going and what our vision and values are,
15:36
but also to buy in and learn how to run a vision.
15:39
Sarah Dobek: I love it. Really excellent points.
15:41
The other thing that I think you guys
15:43
touched on that I want to come back
15:45
to is another really core element of EOS.
15:49
That's accountability. We know how
15:51
important that is in governing,
15:53
but also just in being able to grow our businesses.
15:56
That is probably not
15:58
the topic that everybody likes to talk
16:00
about because we have some misperceptions
16:02
about what accountability means.
16:03
For most of us, we define it as micromanagement.
16:07
Whereas instead, we should really be
16:09
looking at the highways safe.
16:10
We don't ask about it,
16:11
it means we don't care about it.
16:13
We see that as an opportunity
16:16
and a development opportunity.
16:18
But we struggle in
16:20
this profession to figure out
16:21
how to hold people accountable.
16:23
I think, Chris, one of the things I heard you say
16:25
is we come out of that with actions.
16:28
I think that's such an important thing to talk about
16:31
because until we have something like an EOS or a TOS,
16:37
the Thompson operating system
16:39
or whatever we define it as our firm,
16:41
we've got to create a culture where accountability
16:45
is part of the norm that we
16:47
talk about follow-through and ownership.
16:49
Can each of you talk a little bit
16:51
about the importance of that and what it did
16:54
for you as you were putting
16:56
some of this in place and how beneficial
16:58
that's been as far as creating some of
17:01
that as part of our culture?
17:02
Amber, do you want to go first?
17:04
Amber Goering: Sure, Sarah.
17:05
The brainstorming activities that
17:07
we participate in as an executive leadership team,
17:10
not only from an annual perspective,
17:12
but from a quarterly perspective,
17:14
help ensure we're all aligned on our collective vision.
17:17
Then we have buy-in from everyone.
17:19
Then, when you have a shared vision
17:21
down into specific steps to
17:23
get there annually, weekly,
17:27
and you intentionally assign
17:28
those and people take ownership of those,
17:31
you do have that accountability
17:33
and then it ensures success.
17:35
Sarah Dobek: Chris, what has your
17:36
experience been with that?
17:37
I know that you were starting post-COVID
17:39
and some other challenges
17:41
going on within your environment?
17:42
Chris Sullivan: I think accountability is
17:44
the biggest challenge any firm has.
17:47
I say that from the context
17:50
of where our firm came from where
17:53
we were looking for this major transition
17:56
from a founding partner and how it was operated.
18:00
We really went from silo practices of
18:05
very successful partners to
18:07
wanting to be a cohesive firm with a vision.
18:11
I love the VTO.
18:13
The vision traction organizer.
18:15
I think Amber, you mentioned that before.
18:18
We have a similar process in that we
18:21
meet annually for two days session
18:24
with our business coach
18:25
who was our EOS implementor, and we
18:30
identify various aspects and
18:33
then always review our vision.
18:35
Identify our goals for
18:37
that year and then rocks for that quarter.
18:40
We're able to then roll that out throughout the firm,
18:45
throughout the different departments
18:46
so that each department
18:49
comes up with their goals and
18:51
rocks that align with that vision.
18:54
I would say accountability is
18:56
still difficult because of Sarah,
19:00
how you described it.
19:01
It does have a bad reputation of being micromanaging,
19:06
but when you bring it together in
19:09
this forum of we're a team,
19:12
we agreed on this.
19:14
This is the vision of the company, and here's where
19:17
we want to go and here's how we're going to achieve it.
19:21
It has a different context to it,
19:24
and everyone's rowing in the same direction.
19:28
Gary Thomson: One of you, and I can't recall
19:30
which of you mentioned
19:32
earlier that it's so hard
19:33
for us sometimes to make decisions.
19:36
Sarah and I, as we did our first podcast,
19:38
we talked about CPAs are famous for
19:41
admiring our problems as opposed to solving our problems.
19:45
Both of you are in
19:47
firms that have fewer than 10 partners.
19:50
Oftentimes, as I work with firms like yours,
19:54
they think to themselves,
19:55
"We don't need anything fancy,
19:57
we don't need an EOS.
19:58
We can just run the firm."
20:00
Yet, I feel the opposite, that we
20:02
benefit from something structured at
20:05
your level because you're so busy
20:07
with so many different aspects of running a firm.
20:10
Both of you comment, maybe
20:12
start with you on this one, Chris,
20:14
as to how this system has
20:17
allowed you to address
20:18
the critical priorities that you mentioned earlier,
20:20
the rocks and to stay consistent in
20:22
your efforts to scale the firm and grow the firm.
20:24
Chris Sullivan: That's an excellent point.
20:26
I truly believe you must have a business model.
20:29
As accountants, I think we believe in
20:33
organized roadmap and getting
20:37
somewhere and having an end result,
20:39
and that's what I find EOS does for our firm.
20:44
We can stay focused on the priorities
20:46
because we always have our vision in front of us.
20:49
We know what the milestones are,
20:51
the scorecard, for example,
20:53
we are looking at issues
20:56
as a leadership group every week,
20:59
we're sorting them when there are
21:02
things that just can't be solved that week
21:04
into a long-term issue that's going
21:07
to be addressed in our quarterly session.
21:11
We're prioritizing things.
21:13
It's making us a more cohesive group.
21:16
This is something that VSH has had to work with.
21:19
Again, having a founding partner
21:22
and then now we have new partners.
21:24
It allowed everyone to contribute in a way,
21:30
but still stay aligned with our vision and goals.
21:35
Amber Goering: Great point again, Chris,
21:37
not only the ELT being involved in those,
21:40
but our culture survey,
21:42
our engagement survey drives a lot of our quarterly rocks
21:46
and our annual goals because as everyone knows,
21:50
our people are our greatest asset
21:52
and we have to listen to them.
21:53
We don't need to be chasing little things here and there,
21:56
but oftentimes with those surveys,
21:58
there are recurring themes
22:00
and when we can be transparent like our team
22:03
wants us to then
22:05
communicate back to them how we're solving that issue,
22:08
that creates stickiness,
22:10
and I think that's really important.
22:12
Gary Thomson: Amber, you brought up the word,
22:14
you brought up the word culture.
22:16
As Sarah and I are working on this and brainstorming,
22:20
there's this question around
22:21
how EOS and similar type things,
22:24
but we're speaking to EOS today help support
22:27
and actually help form a culture for our firm.
22:31
Can you talk about how adopting EOS has
22:34
impacted your firm's culture
22:37
and even employee engagement?
22:39
Amber Goering: Sure. When you first start EOS,
22:42
it's a several day meeting.
22:45
It's been a long time since we initially adopted it,
22:49
but I believe it was
22:51
two days here and then maybe in another six weeks,
22:54
another two days where you clearly drill down, and you
22:57
naturally come to what
22:59
your values are and what culture you want to create.
23:02
Then what's really important is not
23:04
just creating that but living it out.
23:07
We do lots of little things,
23:09
but one thing we do every week at our team meeting is we
23:12
give out a culture and value trophy, and whoever has
23:15
won the week prior chooses
23:18
the new recipient and then
23:20
details out how they've met our values that week.
23:23
A great thing to note on our engagement survey is we have
23:26
100% participation and everyone knows our values.
23:31
We try not to just put them on a plaque
23:33
on the wall but truly live them and help
23:35
our people understand because the
23:37
better our culture is internally,
23:40
the better we can serve external clients.
23:43
Sarah Dobek: Amber, I love that.
23:46
I always say that culture is something
23:48
that has to be managed too,
23:49
but being able to recognize that in a super small way,
23:53
give people ownership of how we're living
23:55
our values is really what ingrains that.
23:58
It's not an exercise in copywriting,
24:00
although we get to copyright it well,
24:02
as a marketing background person.
24:05
But I think living it
24:06
is probably the most important, and that's what
24:08
actually translates our firms and
24:10
develops some of these cultures.
24:12
Chris Sullivan: I have to just say I love that idea,
24:15
Amber and I made a quick note,
24:17
so it's going to come into action here.
24:22
In EOS, it is
24:24
the exercise of identifying your core values.
24:27
We had previously done that and
24:30
it was an interesting process because we were interviewed
24:33
in different ways and asked
24:35
to just talk about our work in the company in
24:38
the beginning, and what is important to
24:41
us and we've refined those over the years,
24:44
but it's people first
24:45
continuous improvement and strive for excellence.
24:48
That's with our people, with our company,
24:51
with the community, our clients,
24:53
and it embodies a lot of what we do.
24:56
With the culture, we have found
25:00
that EOS makes us more transparent.
25:04
It is sharing what we're striving for.
25:07
We are very open about our continuous improvement.
25:13
I am a very strong believer in
25:15
continuous improvement over delayed perfection,
25:19
as Mark Twain said.
25:21
Those are so important to us that
25:24
I want our staff to see that.
25:27
Currently, we share a core value experience,
25:31
and again, I love your idea, Amber.
25:34
I am going to be applying that very soon.
25:37
I think culture is really important and
25:40
we as partners, live, breathe it,
25:43
but it really needs to be within
25:45
your entire company to actually mean something.
25:49
Gary Thomson: As managing partners and leaders of firms,
25:51
what's your message to
25:53
others who may hear this and think,
25:55
that's a lot of work,
25:56
that's a lot of process.
25:58
What's your message to them, how, as leaders,
26:01
we really have a responsibility
26:03
and opportunity to use a framework like this.
26:05
The benefit is, even though it sounds like
26:08
it's just another few days of non-billable work.
26:11
Help motivate your fellow managing partners
26:13
and other leaders who may be listening to this.
26:15
Amber Goering: I think what's been interesting to
26:18
learn for me is that
26:20
so many CPA firms don't operate
26:23
as a business, as all their clients do.
26:26
We can learn so much from our clients.
26:29
I've talked to many practice leaders who
26:31
aren't looking at KPIs every week.
26:34
Even though we're entrepreneurial in nature,
26:36
it can still be difficult to take
26:38
that time each week to drill down on
26:39
the issues when most of our ELT
26:42
has pressing client work to get done.
26:44
If we take the time to do that, we're able to grow.
26:46
We went from whatever we were at the time,
26:49
10 or 12 people now to almost 45 in
26:51
quite a short amount of time with only two partners.
26:55
That's me stepping completely away from
26:57
client work and only focusing on the business,
27:00
and it turned out to be a great thing for our firm.
27:03
Sarah Dobek: To build off of that Amber,
27:05
I'm just going to add in here,
27:06
it made you more valuable.
27:08
Do you want to talk a little bit about
27:09
your recent transaction a couple of years ago?
27:12
Amber Goering: Sure. I'm sure many of you have heard of Ascend.
27:15
Ascend is part of
27:17
a private equity firm
27:19
that entered the accounting industry
27:21
a couple of years ago, and I was slated to
27:23
speak at AICPA Engage with David Wurtzbackher,
27:26
the CEO of Ascend.
27:28
We met just five minutes before the speaking engagement
27:30
and had a great session and got to know each other
27:34
and we had an LOI three weeks later.
27:37
What was so special about
27:40
that to me is we're one of
27:41
the smallest firms they purchased,
27:43
but we had grown the firm in such a way
27:45
that it was considered valuable to PE.
27:48
Now, it's important to note that Ascend
27:51
is also a people-first organization,
27:53
essentially operating on EOS
27:56
with their own version of it.
27:57
It's exciting to be able to continue
28:00
that as part of Ascend and continue
28:02
to invest in our culture and
28:04
our people just as we have always
28:06
done just with more backing and more expertise behind us.
28:10
It's been very exciting for us.
28:12
Sarah Dobek: Chris, was there anything that you
28:14
wanted to add on top of that?
28:16
Chris Sullivan: I was going to add on to
28:19
Gary's question about getting partners to join
28:22
into this, and I do think it starts with alignment and
28:26
all partners agreeing on the vision.
28:30
When they do, they're willing to
28:32
invest in that time away from client work.
28:35
I think that it is a hard shift from
28:40
the traditional client facing
28:42
practice management approach and
28:45
being able to invest their time
28:48
quarterly to participate in that and
28:51
then certainly giving
28:54
that executive-level decision-making
28:57
to the managing partner,
28:58
CEO to actually achieve that strategic plan for the year.
29:04
I think it's a balance of
29:06
their participation at these key points as
29:09
well as then allowing for
29:11
decision-making to occur with the managing partner.
29:15
Sarah Dobek: Really, good points
29:17
that you both have listed here.
29:19
I think one of the things that
29:20
I always like to think about are,
29:22
what are we learning out of this?
29:24
If we talk about continuous improvement, Chris,
29:26
one of your values or striving for
29:28
excellence is another one that
29:30
we hear a lot in this profession.
29:31
What do we learn from some of this?
29:33
Sometimes I think of that as grace,
29:35
because you talk about the concept of discipline,
29:38
but we all know that nothing
29:39
goes as smoothly as we want it to do.
29:41
What are some of the things that you stay
29:43
focused on as you move forward on this?
29:46
Amber Goering: Always being a student of
29:49
the business and of our people,
29:51
you're constantly learning things,
29:53
and it's important to do that.
29:54
The minute we stick our heads
29:56
in the sand, and don't think that we
29:58
need to listen to our people
29:59
or that we don't need to grow and evolve,
30:02
we've essentially died or killed the business.
30:05
It's just important to completely be open to new ideas.
30:09
They may be good, they may be bad, but always listening.
30:12
I think that's one of
30:13
the things that I've learned the most is
30:14
to listen and be willing to evolve.
30:17
Gary Thomson: Where you go from here?
30:18
Obviously, under an EOS model and under your leadership,
30:21
we're not sitting still.
30:23
What's the next evolution when
30:25
you think about all the things we've talked about
30:27
today, from structure to vision to
30:29
alignment to priorities to accountability,
30:32
we could go through all of this.
30:33
What's next for the two of you in
30:35
your evolution of governance?
30:37
Amber Goering: When we started the firm,
30:39
we just wanted to create a firm that we
30:41
would have wanted to work at when we were employees.
30:44
I think of it as servant leadership.
30:46
I want to just keep growing the firm,
30:48
I want to keep getting larger and keep providing
30:50
a better place to work for people in our profession.
30:53
Too many are leaving it too quickly,
30:55
and I'm hearing the busy season hours
30:58
continue to be awful.
31:00
We want to change that. We've got
31:01
to figure out a way to change it.
31:02
We've got to figure out a way to make this a
31:04
desired profession and a valued profession.
31:07
We're going to continue to learn how to do that
31:10
and invest in the business and invest in our people.
31:13
Chris Sullivan: I see the next phase for CPA firms.
31:17
Amber has touched on this a lot is
31:20
to run our business like a business.
31:23
You don't necessarily need a rigid corporate field,
31:27
but you are identifying
31:29
the next idea for public accounting.
31:33
You're able to implement that quickly.
31:35
I think EOS allows that to happen.
31:39
The other thing that I wanted to add about what I
31:43
learned along this thing about where people business,
31:47
I find as the managing partner,
31:49
I really have to improve and
31:52
grow in emotional intelligence
31:55
as it relates to my partners.
31:57
How do you work the best with them to get the end result?
32:02
Because you want that leadership from them as well.
32:06
Sarah Dobek: As we close this out,
32:08
I think you both touched on
32:09
some really important things
32:11
as we think about the governance model.
32:13
Amber, you said it without saying it,
32:14
which is transform our business models
32:17
and transform public accounting.
32:20
Chris, you did too. How we think about it, ours.
32:23
This conversation is part of a large initiative
32:28
that the AICPA is to put together on
32:30
transforming the profession and
32:31
transforming the business model.
32:33
Governance is just one aspect of this, and
32:35
how we operate our firms is a component,
32:38
a pillar of that.
32:40
Thank you both for joining us.
32:41
Thank you, Gary. I don't know if you have
32:43
any closing thoughts that you want to
32:44
leave with our participants as well,
32:46
but we really appreciate you joining this conversation
32:49
and being able to talk about what
32:50
your experience has been here.
32:52
Gary Thomson: Amber and Chris been super helpful.
32:54
The governance conversation oftentimes
32:56
gets consumed at a different level,
32:58
and this is a very practical one.
33:00
How we use things such as
33:02
in the US system to make us better,
33:04
to make us run like a business.
33:06
To the points raised earlier,
33:08
aligned vision with strategy and accountability, and
33:11
keeping the appropriate amount of focus on that.
33:14
Thanks to you both for your leadership in
33:16
your firms and the profession and for being
33:18
part of this podcast series with
33:20
Sarah and me, as we try to talk more about governance.
33:23
Chris Sullivan: Thank you, Gary, and Sarah.
33:29
Gary Thomson: This content is designed to
33:32
provide illustrative information with respect to
33:34
the subject matter covered and does not represent
33:36
an official opinion or position of the AICPA,
33:39
the Association, or CIMA.
33:41
It is provided with the understanding
33:43
that they are not engaged in offering legal,
33:45
accounting or other professional services.
33:47
If such advice or expert assistance is required,
33:50
the services of a competent,
33:51
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33:53
The AICPA, the Association,
33:55
and CIMA make no representations,
33:57
warranties, or guarantees as to,
33:59
and assume no responsibility for
34:01
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