Latest / Influential Visions / S15 Ep4: EU Chat Control 2.0: Is Mass Surveillance Ending Digital Privacy? | Nat Schooler & Steven J. Manning

Transcript

S15 Ep4: EU Chat Control 2.0: Is Mass Surveillance Ending Digital Privacy? | Nat Schooler & Steven J. Manning · Influential Visions

0:00
I know that you have spent decades navigating corporate privacy and business risk,
0:06
but a new legislative push called chat control 2.0 is raising red flags,
0:12
both with people who care about their privacy and their messages being read.
0:17
And if you assume your company's encrypted chats are secure.
0:22
This proposal changes the game entirely.
0:25
And here is what every executive needs to understand today.
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And I'm I'm joined by Stephen J.
0:32
Manning, like I say, who's been in the business world for ~ decades and he's
0:37
had to navigate all sorts of ~ privacy and data security situations.
0:44
And I've been digging into this topic for
0:49
seven weeks now in a on a deep deep level and people who I talk to on
0:55
a daily basis don't know what to do.
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They're they're stuck. They're like,
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do I use telegram? Do I use this?
1:02
Do I use that? Do I use this? And the thing is is that the good news
1:07
is that is that chat control two point zero
1:12
has not quite been passed.
1:17
So we're we're pretty lucky
1:19
On that front. But I am very worried about it.
1:23
if it actually does pass in the next time when it goes in front
1:29
of the European Council, which will be,
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I believe, in 2028, we are dealing with
1:36
a situation where apps are going to be scanned.
1:40
on people's phones before they even leave their telephones.
1:44
And that's a that's a big worry really as far as anyone that wants
1:49
any privacy really, Steve. It's very worrying.
1:56
Well, I think that as a baseline idea,
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I believe that if you anyone out there believes they j have genuine privacy
2:05
in their lives, let me dispel that,
2:06
you don't. It's a barrage. unless you really are a hermit living
2:11
on a twenty thousand foot peak in the Himalayas.
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don't d y you you need not believe me,
2:16
but if you live in a big city
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London, for example, Los Angeles.
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Estimates are that when you step out of your home in LA,
2:25
your picture is taken somewhere around 200 to 300 times in the course of the day.
2:32
A lot of that is private stuff.
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You know, hey, guilty, walk into,
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I won't name the major retailer,
2:40
and the minute you walk to the door,
2:42
we already know what cell phone you have.
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~ and then we also know that you need toner because we read your retina.
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talk about invasion of privacy at a very basic level.
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Some people think that's really cool.
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I can my shopping experience is better.
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I get enraged, but then I'm also guilty of it.
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London is worse. Not nearly as as as China,
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where by some reports, Chang says,
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Gordon says there are over two million C C T V cameras in just big cities.
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That doesn't mean that's about
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three percent of land mass in in in the entire country.
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So there there's you know, the pr the the pretense of of genuine privacy is history.
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It just doesn't exist. then we talk about history in communications
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is what we're talking about. let me
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Let me give you a for instance.
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I have a relationship, a very deep business relationship of many,
3:35
many years. One of the preeminent network security people in the world.
3:40
Why he talks to me, well, that's a choice he makes.
3:43
It's not like I pick up the phone and call them.
3:46
It's not like I send them an instant message.
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no, you know, let's use WhatsApp.
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Secure. Not like I can use that.
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I have to reach out and ultimately I get a handshake from
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him that is in fact secure.
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Some peer to peer stuff I don't understand,
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frankly, don't want to know. so and then of course the
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the the dichotomy where I want to protect my privacy fiercely.
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But I also have I want to be able to stoop about you.
4:24
So where's the trade-off? I'm gonna shut the internet world off to you,
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Nathaniel, so you can't s do any research about me ever.
4:35
Like because I don't want anyone knowing anything about me.
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That will fail my prediction 95% of the time.
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then the the the the real the real issue.
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We're talking about having the big sharks in the ocean ask the government
4:52
to protect them from the ocean.
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how do you police all this stuff?
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How do you police it? How do you create the the genuine privacy that
5:02
you would like, I would like, we'd all would like?
5:05
The major issue though,
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But
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and this is the elephant in the room,
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right? Is in a lot of these countries in Europe,
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in the UK, we have people that want and in in many countries,
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people that want to do us harm.
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And those are the people that really need monitoring.
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And I do agree with you, privacy is completely gone.
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On my telephone here, there are probably 10 apps that have my microphone switched
5:37
on right now. So people probably listening to this.
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And if I'm in a room and I want a conversation with someone,
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I will take my phone and I'll put it in a different room.
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Because if people want to listen to you,
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they're gonna listen to you, in my personal opinion.
5:51
You know, but
5:52
but you see, ~ sometimes too too common is just allow me.
5:57
Where we used to live up in the hills
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One day I was perturbed because my televisions were picking up some kind
6:08
of a interference. We went trying to figure it out.
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Now we lived on a mountain. There was acres of mountain.
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one of my people spotted a high gain antenna quarter of a mile from
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my property line on top of that mountain.
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My neighbour's fourteen year old was a budding sociopath,
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a twenty four hour day kid,
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was also listening in on my cell phone conversations.
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The good news is that I didn't beat his father nor him.
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And the cops said we know he's a bad kid.
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Okay. Now the enormity of what you just said,
6:56
your cell phone, unless you put that in a Faraday bag,
7:00
all bets are off. A little tidbit of knowledge in terms of the enormity of this.
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You're aware of my app,
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Safeon.
7:13
The location database for this
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is a safety security app which thrives on the exact location,
7:23
not GPS that says you're at twelve forty seven Elm Street,
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Poughkeepsie, New York. No, you're on twelve forty seven Elm Street,
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Poughkeepsie, New York, and you are in a second bedroom on the left hand corner
7:37
northwest. So it's it's really that precise.
7:41
How do you get that precise?
7:44
Okay, so Nat and Steve are having coffee at the Starbucks on that corner.
7:50
Well, that's an address in a shopping center.
7:53
No. Our database said it's not the address shopping center,
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it's a northeast corner, ground floor,
8:01
the shopping center, room three.
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No less than 300,000 mobile apps were feeding real-time data
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to that database at all times.
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So one of the reasons my database said Nat and Steve are
8:21
at the Starbucks because the analytics algorithm
8:27
in parlance identified that there are two other people that are heavy users
8:33
of some app.
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Every morning at 8 30 have a cup of coffee at that Starbucks.
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And Schooler and Manning are in proximity to one of those guys.
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Okay, tell me about privacy.
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That's just a little tidbit. Now if that doesn't blow you,
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it blows my mind. I've seen it.
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it blows my mind as well. It blows my mind as well.
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I've seen it. ~
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Mm-hmm.
8:57
Imagine you walk into a very large parking lot in Southern California and there,
9:01
I don't know, thousands of automobiles.
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And then from 200 yards you look at that gray car and say
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to the database who owns the gray car?
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No license plates, no visuals other than that car and the location
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of the parking structure. Forty seven seconds later,
9:24
you get three options. Nat Schooler,
9:26
Joe Johnson, Mary Ellen Mary Ellen ~ Kopekti.
9:30
And one of those is, in fact, right.
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Well, guess what? Mary Ellen blew a red light three years earlier at this freeway,
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about a half away in that car,
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and has been and the data ba data suggests she travels at highway all the time.
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And then it integrates with all the shopping data and the whole wonderful
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AI goes to work and say, that's gotta be Mary Ellen.
9:57
Tell me about privacy. When I came up with some location based marketing stuff where
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I was going to send you an email,
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hey Nat, come by the Raoul supermarket,
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a toilet paper on sale for 40% off.
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You're due. People looked at me and said,
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Are you kidding? You're gonna get handcuffed.
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How dare you know that Nat's running on a toilet paper?
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Well, we kind of get the data from the supermarket,
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we know his ta habits.
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We know where he drives when he drives.
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by the way, do you know how he notifies you?
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You're driving down the street,
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you got a text message, you own that,
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you're a block and a half way from the store.
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Usually you should buy a toilet paper.
10:33
Yeah, it's funny that, isn't it?
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The the whole the whole intrusiveness of these sorts of things.
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It was really it's really interesting.
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But this but this this regulation that the EU are trying to pass will have
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far reaching implications.
10:48
Because what they're what they're basically saying is is that it's gonna require
10:53
digital platforms to scan private messages for illegal content
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to bypass encryption
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and it
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Forces these apps to use client-side scanning,
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placing an AI classifier directly on the phone,
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right? So you know, i if if if if an AI tool inspects content locally
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on your phone before encryption,
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it destroys
11:20
Isn't that okay so
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encryption. So so so basically it means that
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you can access information on
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basically on anybody's device and and and it's really worrying
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to be honest.
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a and and it's ~ you know what?
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I I I I I absolutely hear it. I I get it.
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I I know it. I fail to understand the legs of it,
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how it goes from that to where we need to end up.
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But then it's the same thing to me as not to worry,
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Facebook and everyone else have they are going to do a bang up job making sure that
12:02
your children are protected.
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That requires
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Well this is the
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point, isn't it?
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that requires one of two things.
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One, the parents have to completely totally buy in with the assumption that they
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actually have control over the kids' devices.
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statistically they do not, kind of,
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but not really. So assuming that's true,
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that the parents have to say, Johnny,
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give me that thing, and they put in the right codes,
12:24
They don't have any control
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whatever.
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over they don't have any control.
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I mean, I've got a friend. You got gone.
12:28
Right. But but assume me they do.
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The other way to do that
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They don't.
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Yeah.
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is we used to say, ~ good. Why don't I,
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Facebook, whoever, I'm going to go and put they came
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up with a wonderful list just a couple of days ago.
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We're going to limit kids of certain age to certain hours,
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we're going to limit usage, we're going to limit access and all that.
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Okay, good. And you're going to do that by compelling the parents to do the order.
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There's another way to do it.
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When the kid logs on, AI identifies who the kid is.
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wait a minute, this is sixteen and a half years old.
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Block him. Or some version of that or AI pushes,
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the app pushes those box onto the kid's phone.
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Now, mom and dad are gonna say,
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no, that's a really good thing.
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And then an hour later, mom and dad are gonna call a cousin who's
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a constitutional lawyer.
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And they're gonna file a lawsuit.
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yeah, that's a good that's a very good point.
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You want to tell me you want
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tell me how now how is that gonna h how many ways can that go wrong?
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So you know it's it's it's a Hobson's choice.
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And the only way, if there's a way,
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is that you you make it canonical,
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you codify it. And codify it were real hardcore penalties.
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Now, okay, good. So then mom and dad,
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if Johnny
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If Johnny can log on to that on his iPhone after 4 30 in the afternoon,
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you in violation. Can you spell
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a hundred million lawsuits? How dare you?
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I'm raising my kid, not you. i I I
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you know the answer my answer to you,
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very specifically, I just ain't smart enough to have an answer.
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Yeah, I mean there isn't one. I mean there isn't one,
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right? But the but the the major issue that you know,
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we've got major issues from a business point of view.
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you know, there are false positives that can that can happen here,
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trade secrets, you know, all these sorts of things.
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you know, so private information will basically get sent to
14:48
databases for review. And then that means that actually all that information
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can be hacked. So it's like you upload a picture of yourself with an ID,
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or your kid does, and then that can be hacked,
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right? So all these things can can be hacked.
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Yeah, but it it it isn't that
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isn't that a horse that left the barn already?
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I've studied it a lot more now and and I didn't realise what this chat control
15:14
one point zero is doing. One point zero is the precursor to the two point zero,
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and what one point zero does is
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it
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It gives tech companies and email providers such as Google Meta or Microsoft,
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et cetera, they are able to voluntarily scan private
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messages to find child sex abuse material and online grooming behavior,
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which this should have happened a long,
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long time ago, right? So this is in this is in Europe,
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okay? So what that means is
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Is it can also be used in unencrypted storage.
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So if you've got storage that's in the cloud,
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they can go and they can scan all your photos,
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they can scan your webmail, they can they can scan basically everything,
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right? Every single thing that you've got.
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And so EU lawmakers have extended this through April 2028,
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whilst this debate over chat control 2.0 continues,
16:14
which isn't in yet, but but
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People are really angry about it.
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They're really angry. my my personal opinion ~ is the same as yours.
16:27
Privacy does not exist. The moment you pick up a smartphone,
16:31
someone can hack it. Someone can hack it very,
16:35
very easily. And if they want to catch child abusers,
16:40
they can catch them, in my personal opinion.
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And what they need to do, rather than this chat control ~ BS,
16:49
they need to turn around and go,
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hold on a minute. We know who the people are.
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We're gonna create some sort of loophole in the law that says if we know you're
16:58
a child abuser and you are doing these things,
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that we can look at your messages.
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And it does they don't have to be encrypted.
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I I think that you can go
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They can just go and look at them.
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you can go to court and get a s get get a court order subpoena,
17:10
whatever or warrant to do that.
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Ultimately comes down to hey,
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all you folks out there, including the st the screamers on both ends of
17:20
the of the pendulum swing, how much of your privacy are you willing to give
17:26
up for the common good? How much?
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~
17:30
That's the point.
17:31
here in the in the United States.
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We have some fringe people screaming their heads off because a
17:38
lot of municip municipalities put on these lost cameras.
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Cameras that photograph your licenses as you go by.
17:44
And my God, the invasion of my privacy.
17:48
And of course, it's being used to issue citations,
17:52
to track criminals, etc.
17:55
Now the whole thing blew up because some
18:00
obscure police officer was taking pictures of his soon-to-be ex-wife.
18:04
Where she was she was following her f following her around.
18:07
And that has become a big big to do.
18:11
The smartest thing is is Paul Morrow,
18:14
who's a well known ~ public figure,
18:16
a police of a law enforcement guy.
18:18
They said, I don't care. There's nothing I'm doing.
18:24
That warrants me. You guys want to know where I'm I'm driving down Wilshire
18:27
Boulevard? That's okay. I don't do anything that I don't want that I have
18:33
a problem with somebody knowing.
18:35
The whole thing about invasion of my privacy to him is ethereal.
18:38
It is to me too. I don't want you taking pictures of me when knowing what
18:44
I'm driving down the street to someone.
18:46
Why are you surveying me? And what are you gonna do with it if you're malintended?
18:50
On the
18:51
Mm-hmm.
18:52
other hand,
18:53
~ I remember clearly when last broke the law.
18:56
Cost me one hundred and twelve dollars.
18:58
I shouldn't drive that fast. That is true.
19:01
Other than that
19:02
But I
19:03
think I look I think everybody breaks the law all the time when they're driving
19:06
and and and on their motorcycle,
19:08
whatever.
19:08
There
19:09
is no way you're gonna get across town and Los Angeles without breaking
19:12
a traffic law. But that's not the
19:13
Not not.
19:14
point. The po the point is, okay,
19:15
so how much of your privacy are you willing to trade for the common good?
19:20
And then let's even break down a common good even more further.
19:24
Child molesters, rapists, murderers,
19:27
and so on. As far as I'm concerned,
19:30
I'm gonna take a deep breath, swallow the fact that.
19:34
Well, maybe I should have been working instead of taking in that matinee show
19:38
on Thursday. Now you do who knows it?
19:41
What's on film? Okay. But at the same time they nailed some child molester.
19:48
I'm good with that.
19:49
Well but
19:50
you see that is the that is the extreme,
19:52
isn't it? That's the that that's the th that's the argument that people keep giving
19:58
me. That's the argument that the government have proposed and said that's what this
20:03
is for. And I understand,
20:06
I understand completely. We've both got kids,
20:10
and you know, I know loads of people with children and
20:15
We're emotional. someone messes with our kids and there's a problem,
20:18
We won't mess with them.
20:19
right? But but but actually what we're giving
20:23
up though is potentially control
20:27
to whatever ruling party is in power
20:32
at that specific time when these regulations
20:35
That specific time.
20:37
are introduced, because then democracy.
20:41
my opinion, could be absolutely finished.
20:45
It could be game over. And then that
20:46
Well, okay.
20:47
damages businesses, it damages lives.
20:50
It because it it it becomes a dictatorship instead of the free society that
20:57
we are know what that we know and love,
21:00
right? And it's a major issue for me.
21:01
You are as accurate as
21:03
you could possibly be.
21:07
Yeah, yeah.
21:08
Okay? And then the next best thing is Are you kidding me?
21:12
You mean we're all going to get landlines again?
21:16
Well this is true. You know, it is a bizarre,
21:20
it is a bizarre situation. And you know,
21:25
and then obviously you've got the prevention of terror,
21:27
which is which is the rest of it.
21:29
And then you've got what are we going to use all these AI data centers for?
21:34
Why are we building all these AI data centers?
21:37
And actually, you know, it perhaps this is actually what we need
21:42
to.
21:42
to to have in in the world because we've been what you know you look
21:47
at 15 minute cities right why is why are they creating a 15 minute city
21:53
why why why do they want people to have front facing cameras in their cars that face
21:58
their faces right why why are all these cameras being
22:04
out there and but but but then actually some of this some of this
22:11
is actually really useful, right?
22:13
Because what you can do is you can
22:15
whole a whole lot of it
22:16
w well we inventory a whole lot of that Nathaniel as just an improvement our lives,
22:21
our daily lives. It's easier. You know,
22:23
Right. Right.
22:24
you get
22:24
your Tesla and say, hey, I want to go to ~ Nat's house and I want
22:29
to drive five miles over the speed limit.
22:31
And then I get to re I can sit back and read the London Financial
22:34
You know,
22:34
It's
22:35
all data. It's data analysis. All this stuff is data.
22:39
Look at all the social media data,
22:41
right? What you know, why do you think Elon Musk bought bought X,
22:45
bought Twitter? Because it it is probably the only platform that's actually free
22:50
speech in this world. Where you can go and argue with someone who's talking about
22:55
Russia. You can argue about Ukraine.
22:58
You can argue about anything that you want to argue about.
23:01
But the beauty of it is, is that that data is publicly visible
23:07
to everyone who who knows how to crunch it.
23:10
And what that means is that public opinion
23:16
can be gauged and it yeah.
23:21
Yeah.
23:22
~ well.
23:24
~ social media of course it it it ~
23:27
Crazy.
23:27
Social
23:28
media fosters super superficiality
23:31
Mm-hmm.
23:31
and democratizes thought. And it it it it it it pushes misinformation.
23:38
it it creates group think. It erodes intellectual wherewithal
23:44
in nanoseconds. You can launch that forest fire
23:50
to fry that egg.
23:52
And the egg said, I'm already fried,
23:54
what do you want from me? And then now again,
23:57
just a a a nagging idea,
24:01
concept, if you will, in life,
24:03
in business, in these discourses,
24:05
we all try to arrive to zero sum.
24:09
You know, it has to in accounting has to cross foot.
24:12
It has to work out in debits, credits has to cross foot.
24:17
Here's a conversation that's never gonna never gonna ride to zero sum.
24:21
Never. There's never going to be an unanimity of opinion.
24:26
Now, to the extent to which social media democratizes thought,
24:31
if you will, while reducing it to the lowest common denominator,
24:35
some dude or do that in a cabin and some forest in Zimbabwe
24:41
can have an opinion, and there's of the 20 word
24:46
insipit post, two will resonate somehow.
24:50
Bingo, three point one million people say,
24:53
yeah, I agree with him. by the way,
24:55
he is in fact illiterate and he eats tree bark.
24:59
But that's it doesn't matter. so here's a this is a massive topic.
25:04
And I I
25:05
Huge.
25:05
know I don't know. I fear I have feel very strongly,
25:11
we'll never achieve a real balance.
25:14
It's not a zero sum because you have to balance some very,
25:18
very emotional ideas here.
25:21
Very.
25:22
well, exactly. So where do you see this going in the ne in
25:28
the n by 2028 when they're gonna be reviewing this?
25:32
What what do you think is gonna happen?
25:35
Do you think that do you think that people are gonna companies are gonna
25:39
get better at analysing relationships between terror suspects
25:43
and paedophiles and and because a lot of these applications like
25:49
In the back of these applications,
25:51
it logs who you speak to, how often you speak to them,
25:56
it also logs location. And some of these some of these will give away telltale
26:02
signs. So that will mean, in my opinion,
26:05
we probably will not need to go the full chat control two point zero,
26:11
in my opinion.
26:11
I have an
26:12
answer for you that's as bad as
26:15
Okay.
26:15
everybody else's bad answer.
26:18
Okay. As bad as my bad answer,
26:19
~ now mine's probably worse.
26:21
yeah, okay. I doubt I doubt I doubt it.
26:23
A lot as smart as you are, but let me
26:26
let me ask this question of all you fine folks watching and listening.
26:28
Ha ha
26:30
What do you think? One of the first things the victims of muggings,
26:37
robberies, all matter of attacks,
26:39
what are one of the first things they say to the constabulary,
26:43
the cops, to people around them when that happens?
26:46
After they
26:49
ordinary stuff they say. I never thought that would happen to me.
26:54
Okay. So nah. child abusers, sex traffickers.
27:00
drug kinkpins, et cetera. And that's not me.
27:03
Until it happens to you or someone near and dear to you.
27:07
Then you're off with that legislation.
27:09
~
27:10
Yeah, I know.
27:11
I think that I don't think it's gonna get through in two years.
27:14
I believe I believe they're going stop going because most people will come down
27:17
on nah I I don't want you know what I like by freedoms?
27:22
democracy is great until somebody tramples yours.
27:26
Then you want autocracy. You know,
27:26
Yeah, yeah. Yeah,
27:29
yeah, yeah, yeah.
27:30
that's the the
27:30
failure of democracy is that that it it it champions the will,
27:35
the theoretical will of many.
27:39
It's all fine until sucks a trample on a small minority,
27:42
which is vocal. You know, if you if you take a look at the landscape in the UK,
27:47
who's screaming against it? This many people.
27:50
But they scream very loud and very effective,
27:52
True, true, true, true. True, true.
27:53
very efficiently. That's the American model,
27:55
True, true. Well if you're listening if you're listening to this what's that?
27:55
by the way. Let me make one. Right now,
27:58
the the United States Congress,
28:00
Sorry?
28:01
the US Congress just just dumped on a law.
28:04
They decide not to do it.
28:07
the con the Democrats in the Congress,
28:09
which happens to be an eighty percent issue for Americans.
28:13
Eighty percent of Americans want that.
28:15
The party
28:16
Wow.
28:16
said no and they voted against it.
28:18
So democracy is great until they trample on your on your end of the stick.
28:23
So
28:24
Mm-hmm.
28:25
I don't think this will pass because it's too broad a bra stroke.
28:29
But what it could happen, Nathaniel,
28:32
is let us not discount the immense power.
28:36
the regulatory agencies. Okay?
28:40
No, I really can't listen on your telephone call,
28:43
but I can get the metadata and I know
28:46
That's the point.
28:47
I can listen to the other dude's call.
28:50
He happens to live in Sierra Leone.
28:52
Well exact yeah, but that's the point is is if this
28:55
You toast.
28:56
but wait, if this if this pass so if this passed in Europe or so say
29:01
for example you got chat control one point zero,
29:04
which is what they have now
29:08
Those regulations would actually automatically work,
29:12
right? In other jurisdictions because platforms generally do not have
29:18
two or f two different regulations.
29:21
So if it passes, what that means is that scanning will occur
29:27
everywhere in the world because they're not gonna change it.
29:32
But in India, they've already
29:33
started these things in the past few days,
29:36
that's already in India, you know,
29:39
they can read emails, they can do all sorts of things.
29:42
So we're at a point where we're fighting for our rights and we're we've been there
29:47
for a few years. And I and I've I'm just a bit late really to
29:51
the party of understanding the implications of of all of this,
29:54
By the way, is is
29:55
to be honest.
29:56
there any doubt in your mind that a whole bunch of whizbang boys
30:00
and girls are working on the next WhatsApp or the next communication device that
30:05
truly is peer to peer, that's impenetrable?
30:08
yeah, absolutely. I mean there is,
30:08
Come on. Come on.
30:09
yeah, I
30:10
mean there is there is ~ so sit let me see so you can you can basically
30:16
you can basically get an Android phone with something called graphene,
30:20
which is an operating system, and then you can you can use that and
30:25
and I believe Proton Mail are actually creating their own encrypted chat which will
30:31
be, you know, secure within that environment.
30:33
Well, but not
30:35
So
30:36
You know, my next phone will be an Android phone.
30:39
I will remove everything and it will be like that,
30:42
Well, Nathaniel, not
30:43
to be honest.
30:44
to worry, I have it on good authority,
30:47
I I read that still today all the cartels,
30:53
the big drug cartels, Mexico,
30:57
Colombia, etc. and Western Africa,
31:00
when they wanna when I you and I are partners and been doing bad stuff,
31:06
and I want to tell you something.
31:10
I call in one of the guys and said,
31:12
Go to him and tell him I said this.
31:14
~ huh. Yeah yeah, it doesn't surprise me.
31:16
It's it's
31:17
w one of the problems that the the the constabula the federal the
31:21
the the all jurisdictions have is that they just can't it it's very seldom they
31:26
can intercept a great phone call or a mess or an email because they deliver still
31:31
deliver it human. Hey, it's it's it's the
31:33
That's funny. That's funny.
31:35
same thing. You you you know how to keep a secret.
31:37
You don't tell anyone.
31:40
That's funny.
31:40
You know, the minute there's secret shared by two people,
31:43
it's no longer a secret.
31:45
Now, how how do I know all this?
31:46
My life is so transparent, it's scary.
31:48
You know? Sometimes I wish some people would read my emails.
31:53
And if if you're watching this and you're like,
31:56
you want to learn more about what we do,
31:58
we we run something called Monday Influencer.
32:01
And that is an amazing, an amazing educational product that will really help
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32:10
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32:11
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32:17
So you can you can you can sign up to that if you go to Mondayinfluencer
32:20
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32:26
we are doing here. We're trying to keep everyone informed and up to date with what's
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going on. So thank you very much.
32:34
Thanks Steve.
32:35
Thank you, Nathaniel. My pleasure.
32:36
Thank you.