Latest / The Vance Crowe Podcast / Police Veteran's Life Story - John Frank Legacy Interview Open Sessions
Transcript
- 00:00:00:00 - 00:00:16:00 Speaker 1 I still work for the National Hockey League. When I first started, we sat in the penalty box during the game, which is kind of neat. The sit in the penalty box with like 20 twist or Kelly Chase after they fought, some guy, you know, on the ice, sat in the bullpen, sat in the dugout, shook hands with President Bush first. 00:00:16:00 - 00:00:29:14 Speaker 1 President Bush on the detail. Spent the day John McCain, an old saying on a police department is, you know, this badges the, you know, first row ticket for the greatest show on Earth because you get to do all these things. 00:00:29:14 - 00:00:30:19 Speaker 1 I'm Stephen Fairbanks. 00:00:30:23 - 00:00:39:02 Speaker 2 A writer and teacher from Saint Louis, Missouri. And you're listening to the Vance Crowe podcast. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. 00:00:39:02 - 00:01:01:09 Speaker 2 Today we're going to do something a little different than a regular interview. I had a man named John Frank, a retired police officer, into the studio to record a legacy interview. What you're about to see are excerpts from that interview where John talks about his childhood, his career, how he raised his family, and some of the wisdom that he's learned along the way. 00:01:01:11 - 00:01:24:23 Speaker 2 Normally, legacy interviews are deeply personal things, and it's been very difficult to even want to share this with the broader public. I want people to feel completely relaxed, because one of the things we do best at legacy interviews is we help people show who they really are so that the future can know who they really were. John was gracious enough to let us share parts of his interview and what you're about to see. 00:01:25:03 - 00:01:43:18 Speaker 2 And if you're only listening on audio, I would encourage you to go to YouTube is a really amazing experience. If you are interested in having me capture your loved ones as they really are. Go to legacy interviews.com to find out more. All right, onto the legacy interview. Open session with John Frank. 00:01:43:18 - 00:01:48:12 Speaker 2 To start off, would you say and spell your full name? 00:01:48:14 - 00:01:52:01 Speaker 1 John Frank J. Anne Frank. 00:01:52:03 - 00:01:54:04 Speaker 2 And where are the Franks from? 00:01:54:06 - 00:02:15:02 Speaker 1 On both sides of my family we have German and Irish, and I don't think we have a whole lot of other in there. But, you know, I don't go too far back in my genealogy. None of my family members have taken an interest in it. So I know my dad's side of the family came from Kempsville, Illinois, small town. 00:02:15:03 - 00:02:20:12 Speaker 1 But, we lived in the city of Saint Louis for, you know, generations now. 00:02:20:14 - 00:02:22:18 Speaker 2 And what's your mother's maiden name? 00:02:22:20 - 00:02:39:02 Speaker 1 She's a powers in. Her mom was a Kramer. My dad was German and Irish. You know, Frank is German. And, my grandmother. It was midnight. We celebrate Oktoberfest and Saint Patrick's Day. 00:02:39:04 - 00:02:44:03 Speaker 2 So if they've been here for generations, what kind of work were they doing? 00:02:44:05 - 00:03:05:10 Speaker 1 You know, my dad was an attorney. You know, personal injury attorney. My mom was a housewife, but my grandfather on my mom's side was a Saint Louis police officer from 1930 to 1917. I guess I get, you know, the the gene from him. But when I was a kid, I had no interest in his police stories. 00:03:05:10 - 00:03:24:11 Speaker 1 And, you know, he he'd like to sit down and tell these long stories. And, you know, I was interested at all until I got on the department. Then he was really old and I kind of missed out on on that because I wish I would have talked to him more about, you know, his time on department back in those days. 00:03:24:13 - 00:03:26:14 Speaker 2 What kind of man was he? 00:03:26:16 - 00:03:46:22 Speaker 1 He was a tough, you know, Irish cop. You know, he was a hardheaded. He never got promoted, even though he was on for 40 years. And he would, you know, he'd admit, you know, if he thought something wasn't right, he would stand up and speak his mind and, And later, my dad became a police commissioner. 00:03:47:00 - 00:04:07:07 Speaker 1 He was appointed by the governor back then. And I think his main motivation was to help people, police officers like my grandfather, who worked their butts off for all those years and never got promoted. And I, I've had a lot of people telling me over the years how good of a police report writer he was. And he loved to write. 00:04:07:07 - 00:04:26:18 Speaker 1 And even when I go over to his house, my brother and I go over there. He'd had a typewriter and he'd he'd type out stories just for, for fun. He was a really good storyteller, really good, really good writer. But they would put young coppers with him to learn, you know, to teach him how to write good police reports. 00:04:26:20 - 00:04:34:22 Speaker 2 Young coppers. Right. That's a term that hasn't been used in a while. What kind of what did the cop do back then? How is it different than now. 00:04:35:00 - 00:05:01:19 Speaker 1 Back then that they didn't they were more centered on walking the beat. They didn't have miniature radios back then. The technology wasn't even there. They had the call boxes. But you, you know, you walked the beat and you knew everybody on your beat. And I remember my grandfather saying back then, they only had two days off a month and no vacation. 00:05:01:21 - 00:05:21:01 Speaker 1 So basically he got 24 days off a year. And I asked him one time, I said, wasn't that kind of hard or that kind of suck? Only having two days off a month. And he's like, you didn't want to be off because you didn't want to miss anything. And two, you know, he had a you know, he had a, you know, fairly large family and cops didn't make any money back then. 00:05:21:01 - 00:05:45:06 Speaker 1 Hardly. But on your beat, there would be a butcher that would give you a roast to take home. And, and you know, the clothier would give you a suit and you would, you would get these things from all these business owners on your beat, which help supplement your income. And you want to be off because you didn't want some other guy filling guy getting your, your hat or your or your pot roast. 00:05:45:08 - 00:06:21:18 Speaker 1 But, there's a lot more cops. There was a lot more, probably a lot less crime. It seems like they they maybe they even had a little bit more fun back then because they had time to get out and meet people and get to know the neighbors on the beat. You know, we tried to do that when when I was on, we were in the Housing Authority unit, which was a new unit that had four public housing complexes, and we walked every day and it was just, you know, if you're a bad guy, you can see a police car come in three blocks away. 00:06:21:20 - 00:06:42:10 Speaker 1 If we park in an alley and walk through a gangway, they don't see you coming. But what? Also, the neighbors see you walking around. It makes them feel better. And you get to use all your your senses. Not only do you see things, you smell things. You hear things. You. You can know a lot more of what's going on. 00:06:42:11 - 00:07:10:14 Speaker 1 You know, hear dogs barking, you know, maybe, you know, that would indicate a prowler in the neighborhood or or whatever, but, you know, I know they don't have enough officers now to where they can walk a beat like my grandfather did. And they're busy handling calls, but I wish they would get back to it. And if they do get to the point where they have extra officers, let them walk the streets, let them meet some of the neighbors, let them, get to know some of the business owners. 00:07:10:14 - 00:07:31:13 Speaker 1 I think it's really important, you know, as far as that rapport, because a lot of people don't call the police because they don't trust the police. They don't, you know, they think they won't do anything or they they're afraid they're going to get in trouble or somebody's going to find out they called. But once you have that whatever level of trust, people are more apt to cooperate. 00:07:31:15 - 00:07:57:02 Speaker 1 And like down in the housing complexes, we got to know the people who lived there. We know who belonged and who didn't. But once these people know that you're you're there to help them and that you're not some kind of crazed police officer, they, you know, you will get calls later, you know, hey, the guy that you really wanted to, you know, the stop, he had the green shirt on. 00:07:57:03 - 00:08:03:12 Speaker 1 He's walking this way now. And you don't get that unless you have that rapport. 00:08:03:14 - 00:08:05:01 Speaker 2 What was your grandmother like? 00:08:05:02 - 00:08:29:04 Speaker 1 My grandmother. My mom said she was a nice little lady. She took care of the family. She didn't say a lot. I never really got to know her that well because she. My grandfather did all the talking, you know, so. But she was very pleasant, the good cook, you know. But she was quiet. We spent more time with my grandmother on on my dad's side. 00:08:29:04 - 00:08:35:21 Speaker 1 So, like, if, you know, like for babysitting and stuff like that. So a nice person. 00:08:35:23 - 00:08:38:02 Speaker 2 What was your other grandfather like? 00:08:38:04 - 00:08:58:06 Speaker 1 Never knew him. I think I was probably 1 or 2 when he passed away, but he worked for, something to do with the transport, like busses and and whatnot in Saint Louis. But my grandmother, who we call granny, she she's the one that, you know, we'd go over to spend a weekend with her all the time. 00:08:58:06 - 00:09:21:05 Speaker 1 She was real fun loving lady and, you know, great sense of humor. And she was Irish and I remember my, especially when I got to be like, you know, a little bit older that a couple times my dad called me and said, On Saint Patrick's Day, she loved Saint Patrick's Day. It was like her day. And, you know, my dad's like, well, your grandmother, we can't find your grandmother. 00:09:21:07 - 00:09:34:03 Speaker 1 Go out and hit some of the bars, see if you can find her. And I and I go in some Irish bar, and she began holding court at the end of the bar and, you know, just laughing and having fun. And she lost track of time, you know, she didn't know. But she's having such a good time. 00:09:34:03 - 00:09:56:16 Speaker 1 And in my aunt live with my grandmother at the time. And she was real fun loving too, you know. And she was single and, and, we go over there and we just we had a lot of fun. My brother, my brother's three and a half years younger than me. And I, you know, we spent almost every weekend with them. 00:09:56:16 - 00:10:21:07 Speaker 1 They lived down at Miami, Michigan. So it was kind of a neat neighborhood. You could walk back, then you could walk down Chippewa Street, and they had confectioneries and, you know, little bakeries and butcher shops and stuff. It was it was it was an it was neat, you know, it was a nice, we look forward to the weekends and my parents look forward to it because they got rid of us for 48 hours. 00:10:21:09 - 00:10:22:17 Speaker 1 It was it was it was a neat time. 00:10:22:22 - 00:10:24:09 Speaker 2 Was she a good cook? 00:10:24:11 - 00:10:44:19 Speaker 1 She wasn't. I don't remember her being a great cook. It was simple stuff that she got even before, like those George Foreman Grill. She had this little hamburger maker and she'd make us hamburgers and. And which was your kid? That's. That's all you want anyway. And we didn't need anything fancy, but, And stay up late, watch movies. 00:10:44:21 - 00:11:10:09 Speaker 1 Just it was it was it was fun. My aunt just passed away last year. She end up getting married like when she was in her 40s and. And, you know, met this great guy, and they, they were married for 40 years, and both of them passed away within the last year. So they they were a big part of our family cause my, my mom died when my, kids were really little. 00:11:10:11 - 00:11:32:21 Speaker 1 And then my dad died three years later. So, and my wife's mom died before they were born, and then her father died. So my kids really didn't have any grandparents other than my aunt and my uncle. So they were surrogate, you know, grandparents for my kids, which was kind of neat. You know, we got a small family. 00:11:32:23 - 00:11:53:04 Speaker 1 You know, it's just weird to me, like when you talk to people about Thanksgiving. So we're having 30 people over, like, we it was like 5 or 6 of us. Usually. And, I just, you know, it's hard to kind of fathom that for me because we've always just been small and kind of a tight knit family. 00:11:53:06 - 00:11:55:15 Speaker 2 What was your dad like? 00:11:55:17 - 00:12:13:01 Speaker 1 You know, he was he was a neat guy. He in the word, like a lot of people use when they talk about him, is he was larger than life, you know. You know, I know it's a cliche, but he you knew he was there and he wasn't, like, loud, near noxious. But he just had a very strong personality. 00:12:13:03 - 00:12:34:05 Speaker 1 Like I said, he was a trial attorney, very successful, but he never moved out of South Saint Louis. You know, we grew up down around Francis Park and, you know, all the other lawyers seem to live out in West County or Ledoux or whatever. But we stayed in the city. And, my brother and I went to public school. 00:12:34:07 - 00:13:02:15 Speaker 1 I think it was a, a neat part of our upbringing is instead of going to a fancy private school to go to a public school, because it was kind of a diverse group of people. But back then you didn't think of it in those terms. You know, it's just that's Joe, you know, wherever Joe's firm or whatever, Joe, it looks like Joe's just Joe, you know, and, but it was it was a fun atmosphere. 00:13:02:17 - 00:13:26:07 Speaker 1 It was it was a safe atmosphere, with great teachers and, you know, I really think that helped a lot of us became cops, even though none of us ever talked about being policemen when we were in in high school or grade school. But, you know, it was just kind of natural, natural progression for a lot of us. 00:13:26:09 - 00:13:33:00 Speaker 2 Why do you think your parents chose to go that route as opposed to the private school? West County route? 00:13:33:02 - 00:13:50:15 Speaker 1 I think, you know, my dad went to Roosevelt High School, my mom went to Cleveland High School. You know, they were you know, they always lived in the city. I lived in the city till I was 40. And I moved out just because my kids were little and I, I was the opposite. I was like, I want to take my kids. 00:13:50:17 - 00:14:13:15 Speaker 1 And, you know, we went out to Wentzville area just it was I just thought it was a safer place for them to grow up. But, but my dad was always, you know, he liked living in the city, like, he always said that that's where a lot of political power is. Not that he was a politician, per se, but he he did like to have some say so. 00:14:13:15 - 00:14:34:23 Speaker 1 The dislike being on the police board. And he was on the Port Commission for a while. He was on the, the stadium commission when they were trying to get a football team here. And he, he was part of all that negotiations and building the, the dome downtown and, going out to LA and luring them the Rams here. 00:14:35:01 - 00:14:51:12 Speaker 1 You know, he was a big part of that. So he, he was he, he was involved in the community. And I really think that he, he felt like he had more power or was more involved by living in the city rather than being in the county. 00:14:51:14 - 00:14:54:05 Speaker 2 So what was your mom like? 00:14:54:07 - 00:15:26:03 Speaker 1 My mom was great. She was, housewife, but, very good natured, very, you know, fun person. My dad was this big, larger than life figure, and she was just the calm, you know, fun loving, just, the counterweight, you know, and, but my dad did whatever my mom, you know, told him to do no to, you know, you know, so it was they had a great marriage. 00:15:26:03 - 00:15:48:12 Speaker 1 They had a lot of fun together. They they travel a lot, but they they had parties at the house a lot. They had their friends over. We go to, you know, nothing pretentious about them at all. My dad did. You know his one thing you know, we had just a normal thing was Hills House. Nothing extravagant. He loved to work in the yard. 00:15:48:13 - 00:16:12:12 Speaker 1 And, you know, he won a couple, like, lawn and garden awards from the neighborhood. But he his one extravagance is he won some big case and he ended up going over to, London and he bought a Rolls-Royce and had it shipped back and that was that was his extravagance. And he had had a, you know, we had a two car garage. 00:16:12:12 - 00:16:37:06 Speaker 1 You had to have another, you know, slot, you know, built on longer ones so he could pull his big Rolls-Royce in and he only drove it, you know, 8 or 10 times a year, probably. But it was always a big deal, you know. You know, seeing dead or you know, he go he go down, he go to Ace Hardware in his Rolls-Royce, you know, get a bag of mulch, you know, and people or people and stop what they're doing to see. 00:16:37:06 - 00:16:51:01 Speaker 1 But, you know, they both my parents had a good sense of humor and they were fun loving people, fun to be around. And my mom and my dad were really good cooks. So we, you know, we eat well. 00:16:51:03 - 00:16:54:17 Speaker 2 And what do you remember that they cooked? 00:16:54:19 - 00:17:15:16 Speaker 1 You know, my dad like the fried chicken he liked, he like to barbecue. My mom made more of the casseroles and the pot roast and things like that. They always had a big, corned beef and cabbage. You know, Saint Patrick's Day, as you can tell, it was a big. Still, it was a big deal in our family. 00:17:15:18 - 00:17:42:14 Speaker 1 And I say Saint Patrick's Day is the only day of the year. It's cool to have red hair, too. Everybody loves the red head guy on Saint Patrick's Day. But, No, you know, on Sundays my dad would make chili and you grill some hotdogs. We watch, you know, football. You football. Cardinals. And later when the Rams got here and you know, when Pay-Per-View first started, he could get those Pay-Per-View like Mike Tyson fights. 00:17:42:14 - 00:18:10:04 Speaker 1 And you know you say you know get all your buddies. Have him come over and you know he those Tyson fights before you got your first bite of your chili. It was over usually because you know, iron Mike would knock them out in the first couple seconds. But it was just great memories. And my my friends always seemed to love my dad because he was on earth, and he'd sit there and talk to him and ask him about, you know, their jobs or their girlfriends or, you know, whatever. 00:18:10:06 - 00:18:25:17 Speaker 1 But he was just one of the guys and he always had a big refrigerator full of beer. He didn't drink beer that much, but he always kept it for us. And, it was fun. It was it was a great, great upbringing. 00:18:25:19 - 00:18:32:11 Speaker 2 You mentioned your mom was a housewife. What were the appliances like back then? What was she using? 00:18:32:13 - 00:18:48:19 Speaker 1 You know, I remember they didn't. They had a dishwasher, but it it wasn't the undercounted type. It was one. It was on wheels. You had a rolled over. You ever see one of those? I guess it was an earlier one. You would sit in a corner and we'd be on wheels, and she would roll it over to the sink. 00:18:48:19 - 00:19:17:10 Speaker 1 And then you had a hose that you would put on the, you know, the spout, and you plug it in and it would do washing dishes and then you would. I remember that when we were little, we had the first steam, my dad had to have the first VHS, you know, you know, VCR, you know, recorder and, you know, back then I, you know, there's only like, ten movies you could rent because, you know, it was it was so new and the thing was huge. 00:19:17:12 - 00:19:50:17 Speaker 1 But he, he, he liked electronics, you know, you know, he always had a nice stereo. And, you know, he always upgraded his televisions and things like that. So that was, that was going to need to. But yeah, we had we'd always had a lot of people over, you know, kids come over to see because we had videotapes and, and to this day, like when movie Slap Shot comes on, we, my brother and I can recite it word for word because we'd watch it, rewind it, watch it again. 00:19:50:22 - 00:20:15:14 Speaker 1 We might watch it four times in one day. And we did that for a whole summer. So that's, you know, indelibly etched in my mind that whole movie. But, but it. Yeah, but, mom, you know, she kept a great house. They had a, greenhouse. Add it to the side of the house. It was really neat. 00:20:15:16 - 00:20:39:12 Speaker 1 We had a double lot, which was. Which was really cool because that's like when we were little kids, that was our football stadium and our baseball stadium and that. And it seems like the neighborhood kids would all end up in our house because we would. We played sports every day, you know, according to what season it was. And, but then they put on this, this greenhouse, which was really neat. 00:20:39:12 - 00:20:56:08 Speaker 1 And then my dad got a in buying them a car was named big Red, and, you know, you can see, you know, we drove back. When people drive by, they could see them a car in there and stuff. And you had all kinds of exotic plants in there, and and it was it was really cool, you know. 00:20:56:08 - 00:20:57:18 Speaker 1 So that sounds like. 00:20:57:18 - 00:20:58:22 Speaker 2 Quite a character. Yeah. 00:20:58:22 - 00:21:22:07 Speaker 1 The neighbors knew we were around, you know, because, you know, he'd have big parties. You know, he had a luau one time and, you know, you know, he'd have his whole office over and, and the front, you know, it'd be like a to two day event. I think one day he'd have the whole office over. And back then he was with the Halverson firm over Halverson, Halverson and Frank. 00:21:22:09 - 00:21:48:08 Speaker 1 So they probably had, you know, 30, 40 employees and their spouses. And then the next day, he'd have, the friends of the family and the neighbors. He'd have a band. I remember mash animals at one of them, one of the parties, which was. He was at the luau. I got a picture of my dad and the mayor and a couple other people, and grass skirts, you know, doing, you know, hula dancing and stuff. 00:21:48:08 - 00:22:12:02 Speaker 1 So that it was fun, you know, a fun loving guy. And, and one thing, the thing that amazes me when I tell my kids is when you went out to eat with my dad, he'd go to like, the Ruth's Chris Steak House or something, or he had a couple different favorite restaurants. But it was it was epic. 00:22:12:04 - 00:22:43:13 Speaker 1 I mean, you met at his house and, you know, for drinks beforehand, and then you sit there for a while and talk and then, you know, we get in the car, we drive to the restaurant, and then he would get furious if they tried to take your order too soon because you had to have, you know, 2 or 3, you know, cocktails before and then, then he'd order the appetizers and more cocktails, and then finally you're there like two hours and now you're ordering dinner. 00:22:43:15 - 00:23:11:12 Speaker 1 And then he had to order wine for dinner, and then you ate these huge meals, and then he would order, like a Black Russian or White Russian afternoon after dinner, and then look at the, you know, the dessert menu. Then you go, you know, you get done there and you know, he by people with other tables, drinks and, you know, like, you know, everybody in the restaurant by the time you left. 00:23:11:14 - 00:23:33:07 Speaker 1 And then you go home, then you go back to his house and then have another, you know, another beer or something before you went home. And luckily, at one point, we live right next door to my parents, so that that made it a little bit easier. Same thing with lunch. You go to lunch at 1130, you know, lunch, be over at five, you know. 00:23:33:07 - 00:24:08:17 Speaker 1 So he was and he'd talk to anybody. And he was like great storyteller and gregarious guy, but down to earth. And I remember when he died, you know, a lot of the people who showed up at the funeral home were, like busboys and that from these restaurants he would go to because he, you know, he would tip them real well, you know, if they kept his water glass full and, and, he, he was a down to earth guy, you know, he never he never lost that South Side kind of, everyday guy persona. 00:24:08:19 - 00:24:27:21 Speaker 1 You know, if you drove by there on a Sunday, he'd be out there and it's, you know, with his headband on, you know, digging a hole, you know, planting something, you know, working in his yard. He had a fountain in the backyard and and he was a character is definitely a character. 00:24:27:23 - 00:24:32:09 Speaker 2 So a lot of drinking. Was it an advantage or a vice? 00:24:32:10 - 00:25:08:19 Speaker 1 My dad. I would never see him drunk this. I'd see him drink a lot, but he was always under control. Wouldn't slur his words. Didn't, you know, get angry or goofy or anything? He just. He was always in control and I think he kind of just mastered it, you know, he just. And I remember, father mentor ski was, a teacher at the birth of my brother, a friend of the family. 00:25:08:21 - 00:25:42:18 Speaker 1 And we were never a big religious family when we didn't go to church regularly or anything. But father mentor ski just was a good friend of the family through my brother Nicci. And he, he decided it one day. He was going to. He could drink. My dad, and he brought, like a case of beer over, and they sat down and, you know, an hour and a half later, father mentor ski was snoring and, you know, and in my dad's living room and my dad was like, you know, watching something on TV. 00:25:42:18 - 00:25:48:03 Speaker 1 So many, many challenged Ed, but I don't think I don't think anybody ever beat him. 00:25:48:05 - 00:25:49:23 Speaker 2 And then what year were you born? 00:25:50:01 - 00:25:51:16 Speaker 1 62. 00:25:51:18 - 00:25:56:04 Speaker 2 And what kind of kid were you growing up? 00:25:56:06 - 00:26:20:16 Speaker 1 I you know, I was a good student. I was smart, but, I wouldn't say I was a good student because I didn't really apply myself as much as as I probably should have. I like school for the social part of it, and I didn't enjoy studying and and and that. So I got good grades for the most part. 00:26:20:18 - 00:26:44:01 Speaker 1 But, I could have applied myself more. I don't have any real regrets, because it kind of took me on my path that I ended up on. And, you know, I never did graduate from college. And my dad always said, you know, you'll never be anything unless you have a college degree. And, but a lot of that luck, I fell into the the police job. 00:26:44:03 - 00:27:22:11 Speaker 1 And I would like to tell the story of how that happened is I was at Mizzou, and Mizzou was way too much for me because there was 900 opportunities every day to go out and do something fun. I had a lot of good friends. That's where I met my wife. But, it was like my junior year and, the midterms sort of the day after, Halloween and, I was supposed to stay home and study for the midterms, but there's like, ten Halloween parties going on. 00:27:22:13 - 00:27:50:17 Speaker 1 You know? So anyway, I went out. I went out for Halloween with my buddies and didn't study at all. And the next year I lived off campus. I woke up and I was driving into campus, and I hadn't studied for any of these tests, and and I knew I was going to flunk them anyway. So I and I remember the first day I just sitting at a stoplight, I rolled my window down, I threw my books out the window and just made a U-turn and went back home and went back to bed right. 00:27:50:19 - 00:28:13:03 Speaker 1 Well, I ended up staying there for the rest of the semester, and I live with my brother and he's an attorney now. My brother Joe and Joe got straight at Joe. Never had anything less than an A, I don't think ever. And so he kept going to classes and getting his A's, and I just, I was just kind of floating around Columbia, hanging out with my buddies and that. 00:28:13:03 - 00:28:34:19 Speaker 1 Well, we get home for the summer and report cards came, so I got the mail. I left my brother's in there, and I took my mine. And, you know, my mom's like, oh, your brother got straight A's and he's. Congratulations, Joe. Frank, you've attained the Dean's list and bye bye. So she goes, where's yours? And I said, you know, I took a couple classes. 00:28:34:19 - 00:28:54:12 Speaker 1 They didn't turn, you know, the grades in or whatever. So finally she just stops me like a few weeks later says, where's your report card? You know, and I said, I got, I got all F's or Incompletes or whatever. And so, my dad kept saying, you either got to go get back in school or you got to get a job. 00:28:54:12 - 00:29:24:13 Speaker 1 You're not just going to sit around and watch this. Correct. And, so I didn't really look too hard for a job either. So one day my dad was on the police board, and, a good friend of the family, George Hollister, who was a captain on the police department, would come over and, he'd take my dad out at night, like, on a Friday night, and they'd go right around the city, you know, listen, because my dad back then, the police commissioners had police cars that they would give them unmarked cars. 00:29:24:13 - 00:29:50:14 Speaker 1 But but we just ride around and, you know, George would take us on calls and stuff and, just one particular night, we drove way up by Calvary Cemetery and we pulled in, the parking lot of this, gas station. And George turns and goes, you know why we're here? And I said, no. And he goes, well, I found your job. 00:29:50:14 - 00:30:14:04 Speaker 1 Your dad told me to find you job. I know the guy that owns this place. Well, this was Friday night, and it was there was people out everywhere, you know, there's rats running around and there's guys hanging out front. It's on drugs and stuff. And he goes, you know, next week you start working here from like, you know, 10 p.m. to like four in the morning. 00:30:14:04 - 00:30:33:00 Speaker 1 And I and I got I was sick to my stomach and I, I'm looking out because I'd never seen anything like this before. You know, it's this, that, this, this really crazy place. So we got back in the car and I'm like I said, I'm sick to my stomach and I'm like, oh my God, they're going to kill me up here. 00:30:33:02 - 00:30:55:10 Speaker 1 So we went to you ever heard of, Pacino's restaurant? It was at, Sarah and West Pine over there just west of Saint Louis University. It's a great Italian place. Not there anymore. It was in the basement of this apartment building. And you would, like, hit your head on the on the rafters and stuff if you didn't. 00:30:55:12 - 00:31:14:21 Speaker 1 But it was a great play, and a lot of policemen hung out there, and George took us there. First time I had ever been there. And so I'm sitting there and I'm sitting in the booth with my dad and George, and I'm like, and so right then this guy walks in, what's Miles McDonnell? He's a liquor control agent. 00:31:14:23 - 00:31:34:17 Speaker 1 And everybody in Saint Louis knows Miles. So. So he where we're sitting there, I meet him, he sits at the booth with us, and, I said, hey, Miles, do you have any openings at Liquor Control? And he's like, a matter of fact, we do. You know, somebody just quit or whatever. So Miles got me an application like that from on Monday. 00:31:34:19 - 00:31:55:22 Speaker 1 And like a month later, I was working for the state Division of Liquor Control, which saved me from this job. You know, in the gas station. But I met all these police officers because we work with, you know, like device division and the detective bureaus. And at closing down these these bars and that, that, you know, into nefarious things. 00:31:56:00 - 00:32:15:22 Speaker 1 So I really got, interested in police work, and I, you know, I just met a lot of interesting policemen. So I went to my dad and said, you know, do you think it's a good idea? I if I apply for the police department? He said, yeah. And so I did, and I got in, you know, and I never looked back from there. 00:32:15:22 - 00:32:41:09 Speaker 1 But it was, it was just a fortunate set of circumstances. I loved my time at Liquor Control. That was a lot of fun. I was like 23 years old. And, you know, they have all that power in that. But I learned from great people like Miles and Kevin Clukey and Bill Turner were my bosses and, and, but I really they had a lot of good relationships with these good, good police officers. 00:32:41:11 - 00:33:02:18 Speaker 1 And it it just you know, that light went on for me and, like I said earlier, it was the perfect job for me. You know, being a policeman, I loved being out. Know you have a certain amount of freedom. I don't, you know, don't want to work in an office even though, you know, there are jobs in the police department where they're more office related. 00:33:02:18 - 00:33:24:16 Speaker 1 But but most the time I spent on the street, you get that, you know, you become a lot of us become adrenaline junkies. So several times a week, you know, you get, you know, or you really get, you know, everything gets, you know, call for a hold up in progress or something like that or shooting and you get that adrenaline rush. 00:33:24:18 - 00:33:53:19 Speaker 1 But then there's a lot of times you just meet so many neat people. Police officer to me are interesting. And and there's so many fascinating, funny people you meet in the public, and you get to help people out and you get to do and you get to go places other people don't get to go. Like, we talk on our podcast is sometimes we ask the question, what is something that you did as a police officer that you probably never would have had the opportunity to do if you weren't? 00:33:53:19 - 00:34:17:09 Speaker 1 And you know, I still work for the National Hockey League, doing security. I'm like the alternate representative for Saint Louis. But back, you know, when I first started, we sat in the penalty box during the game, which is kind of neat. You know, the sit in the penalty box with like, Tony Twist or Kelly Chase after they fought some guy, you know, on the ice, you know, and then they sit around, talk to you like, how's your day going. 00:34:17:09 - 00:34:36:17 Speaker 1 You know it's like, well not as exciting as yours. But you know, I worked the baseball games. You know, my last day wearing a uniform. I was in the Cardinals dugout, working secondary, you know, and, you know, they played the Cubs on a Sunday and Jerry Lee Shaq put me in the dugout, you know, just because it was my last day. 00:34:36:17 - 00:35:12:11 Speaker 1 But sat in the bullpen, sat in the dugout, shook hands with President Bush first. President Bush, on the detail. Spent the day with Billy Graham, protecting him. Jesse Jackson, spent the day at John McCain, which was really neat. So, got to do a lot of things, see, like, you know, go go backstage at the Fox, you know, during a show of, you know, stuff that people don't, don't like, said, don't get to do all that. 00:35:12:11 - 00:35:35:04 Speaker 1 Maybe you get the chance to do 1 or 2 of those things. An old saying on a police department is, you know, disparages the, you know, first row ticket for the greatest show on Earth, because you get to do all these things, you know, know, driving 100 miles an hour down Kings Highway is, you know, pretty, you know, pretty adrenaline pumping. 00:35:35:06 - 00:35:57:07 Speaker 1 And back when I first came on, they didn't have as me restrictions on chasing cars as they do now. I personally had my own restrictions on it because it is. It's terrifying. But the thing is, the end doesn't always justify the means. Especially if somebody gets hurt. Some innocent person gets T-boned by a, you know, fleeing phone. 00:35:57:07 - 00:36:15:17 Speaker 1 You know it's not worth it. Sometimes you can catch, these people, you know, the offenders in another way. You know, we should chase them for a block and turn our lights off like we gave up. But, you know, but we a lot of times you just kind of have to guess which way they're going to go, but, you just follow them until they get out. 00:36:15:19 - 00:36:35:11 Speaker 1 And because I think they lost you. And then you describe it when, when they get out. So I, I never like the police pursuits. And once I became a sergeant I would cancel most of them unless it was something really somebody wanted for some something really heinous. It's just not worth it. 00:36:35:13 - 00:36:51:01 Speaker 2 When you were first starting out, there's a time after you get done with training, and then there's a time when you're first in charge that that badge gives you, you know, power, but also responsibility. What was something you saw that really knocked you back a little bit? 00:36:51:03 - 00:37:35:05 Speaker 1 The one thing that it hit me is if you grow up in a normal kind of nice neighborhood and you have a normal, functional family, and you live in a nice house and an orderly house, what you don't realize, and it hits you pretty, pretty early on is when you go to work, you leave your nice neighborhood and you go into neighborhoods where things aren't as nice, and you go in these houses that are that you couldn't normally, imagine that people live with the the cockroaches on the floor, the walls, the ceiling. 00:37:35:05 - 00:38:07:20 Speaker 1 You open up a cabinet there on the inside of the cabinet door and and and you know, you know that there's things out there like that. But when you start seeing it eight times a day, you know, every day and you're just you're just used to living that, you know, Beaver Cleaver lifestyle. And then you see how, you know, disadvantaged some people are how messed up some people are, are just like, if you're a kid, kids are kids, but you grow up in different environments. 00:38:07:20 - 00:38:41:13 Speaker 1 And, you know, we're lucky enough that we grew up in an environment where, you know, we had money, we had we had nice things. Our our families kept the house nice. And we we had everything we needed. You go into other environments where this kid's just an innocent kid, but, you know, he sleeps on this dirty mattress on the floor, and there's roaches and mice running around, and he doesn't have enough to eat, and he doesn't, or the right things to eat. 00:38:41:15 - 00:39:04:20 Speaker 1 But after a while, seeing that day after day after day, it gets it gets kind of depressing. And that's what I told my son. I go, you're going to you get you're going to be excited when you first start. And every day is going to be the coolest day of your life. But then you get to the point where it's, you know, it's like, I don't want to look at this stuff every day, all day anymore. 00:39:04:22 - 00:39:29:11 Speaker 1 And but then you just learn to, you know, I won't say learn to live with it, but you you adapt to it and you go beyond that and just say, you know, they they called me there because there's a problem. They call the police and you try to help people out and do the best you can, you know, or refer them to somebody that may be able to help them. 00:39:29:13 - 00:40:07:15 Speaker 1 But it's usually you. You get called because, somebody's emotions have gotten out of control, and some two people or two factions of people or whatever are upset with each other and, and they end up calling the police because they can't resolve themselves. And, and that gets, you know, and that gets old after a while. But you another thing you realize so and my advice to young cops, including my, my son was the best, one of the best qualities you can have as a, as a police officer is learning how to chill people out. 00:40:07:17 - 00:40:26:20 Speaker 1 And it is if you can get people calm down in a quick manner. And that's by not losing your temper and not not getting upset. And it doesn't always work. Some people are just so hyped up that they, you know, that they're not going to are they get more hype. If they see you being calm, they get more. 00:40:26:22 - 00:40:59:05 Speaker 1 But most people, if you're calm and you talk to them directly and calmly and say, hey, look, let's figure out how we can help you. I can't do that. While you're screaming, you know? And people take a deep breath and then they'll they'll talk to you and then you'll, you'll find out what it is, and you know, and you leave and hopefully everybody is, you know, calm or if somebody needs to go with you, if, you know, if you find out, you know, some kid assaulted his mom and she, you know, and she wants him locked up, then you take him with you. 00:40:59:05 - 00:41:24:03 Speaker 1 But, but if and sometimes you have to calm your partner down, sometimes you have to calm other officers down, you know? You know, it's. But you it's a part of police work. There's a lot of things you learn in the academy that you can't, you know, you can learn the laws and the rules and regulations and and certain skills, but most of it you have to learn by, by doing it. 00:41:24:08 - 00:41:52:10 Speaker 1 And, you know, there are there's some decent role playing in that. But it's being in an environment and that's always the disadvantage cops have is you walk in to a place. Everybody there who lives there knows where everything is, what the situation is, who's who, who's the hothead, who's you know who's normal, who's dangerous, who's crazy. You don't know that. 00:41:52:10 - 00:42:22:22 Speaker 1 You have to make an assessment in a very short period of time of what's going on here. And you can't just say, well, this is too complicated. I'm gonna leave. You have to come up with some kind of resolution. So that's that's the skill you need to learn. And that's what, you know, hopefully a lot of people who, if you're critical of the way an officer handles a certain situation, a lot of times it's this, you know, maybe you don't make the right assessment. 00:42:22:22 - 00:42:41:23 Speaker 1 Maybe the person that you think is the instigator is really the victim. Just by the way everybody's acting but you. And you can figure a lot of that out later. But if you get things calm right away, it makes it a whole lot easier to to sort those things out. 00:42:42:01 - 00:42:45:10 Speaker 2 How did your career progress? 00:42:45:12 - 00:43:12:15 Speaker 1 You know, Vance, I was lucky because I the moves I made on the police department were either up or lateral, but I never really went from, like a glamorous position back to the street. You know, I always, you know, I was in the ninth district, which is in Midtown, which was a neat place at the Central West, then Midtown, all the way down to Jefferson. 00:43:12:16 - 00:43:37:01 Speaker 1 So and it was a good kind of a diverse area. You know, you're in a mansion up on the West End, and then an hour later you're you're at a liquor store down at Doctor King in Jefferson. So you got to see a lot, you know, a broad spectrum. It was it was really neat back, especially back in those days. 00:43:37:03 - 00:44:00:15 Speaker 1 But then, I got to go to Mobile Reserve, which is, you know, you you ride the whole city high profile or, you know, you're looking for guns and drugs and stickup man and things like that. So we got and that was a crazy time because that was back when homicides, you know, gang violence was really, prevalent back then. 00:44:00:15 - 00:44:19:10 Speaker 1 And, you know, a lot of people were getting shot and killed. We, you know, in mobile, we got in shootouts a lot because we were going from the worst neighborhood in the city to the second worst neighborhood in the city. You know, we were in all the hotspots. So you just naturally ended up getting involved in a lot of things. 00:44:19:10 - 00:44:52:08 Speaker 1 And we didn't handle radio calls. We we were just looking for wanted vehicles and wanted people or people doing, you know, hand-to-hand drug transactions. Or so we up and a lot of times we just pull up on on things that we had to get involved. And then my first night, mobile, a guy was one of our officers was chasing a suspect up an alley and, and, we pull up and I go to run down the gangway to help him. 00:44:52:10 - 00:45:15:13 Speaker 1 And my partner says, don't go down the gangway. He goes. He's. Because this particular officer, this guy had a gun, and he goes, he's going to shoot this dude because, you know, he's this copper is an old school cop. And if you had a gun, you didn't drop it, you know, he'd shoot you. And I. I ran halfway down the gangway and I stopped, and I was I heard bang, bang, bang. 00:45:15:15 - 00:45:40:11 Speaker 1 And the officer shot at. But I don't think he hit him in this particular case. But but that's you know, you know, I shot two people and I was in more reserve because you just pull up or both of them both times it was just you pull up on something in progress and you have to intervene. And and if person doesn't drop the weapon or do what they're supposed to do, you do what you got to do. 00:45:40:11 - 00:45:42:10 Speaker 2 But did they die? 00:45:42:11 - 00:46:07:09 Speaker 1 No. The the first guy I shot was, for not was a police officer, son. But he it was a domestic thing. He he and these two women were fighting and he, you know, he chased him up to a staircase, outdoor staircase, and, So I like, we're like, you know, we got on air saying we got a disturbance here. 00:46:07:09 - 00:46:29:13 Speaker 1 Me and my partner and, I went up the staircase that figure out was going on because they went in the the house, the apartment where he comes out and the one lady, he throws her down the steps and I'm on the steps in. This guy, like, rolls past me. Then here comes the second girl. He throws her down the steps and she rolls past me. 00:46:29:13 - 00:46:48:21 Speaker 1 So? So now, you know, it's like, well, you know, this is pretty serious. And, so he's out there and he's screaming at me and, he he he looks he didn't have a gun on him, but he looks down and he pulls out this on the ground with a claw hammer, and and I'm like four steps down from him. 00:46:48:21 - 00:47:13:00 Speaker 1 And I said, hey, man, drop the hammer, you know? And he's like, I ain't dropping a hammer. I'm gonna kill you. And I said, drop the hammer. And my partner, it happened so quick. My partner still like getting out of the car, you know, and, so he. He just said, he's looking at me. He's got this hammer, and he's frothing at the mouth. 00:47:13:00 - 00:47:32:00 Speaker 1 I mean, the guy's out of control. It turns out he was on drugs, obviously. And he pulled that hammer back and started to, you know, throw it at me. And I said, I'm not. All I could see was a hammer sticking out of my forehead. And I said, no, screw that. And I and I shot him and he fell off the balcony and, and he lived. 00:47:32:00 - 00:47:49:10 Speaker 1 Luckily he lived in, you know, I called his father the next day. I said I would I didn't apologize because I, I wasn't sorry, I did it because I, it was either me or him. And, he says now I'm just glad my son's still alive and he's, you know, we're going to get him help. You know, we got to get him off that. 00:47:49:11 - 00:48:11:22 Speaker 1 He's on drugs and, you know, the homicide detectives came to, you know, to, you know, they handle the police shootings and there was a couple of, you know, hardcore looking gang member looking guys across the street, and they waved this homicide detective over, and I'm thinking like, oh, these guys are going to make up a bunch of crap that I shot the guy for no reason or whatever. 00:48:12:00 - 00:48:29:13 Speaker 1 And the detective talked to him and took down some stuff, and he came back over and said, those two guys, I just I go, those guys say he said, well, he said, hey man, we don't like the police. But that that officer had no choice but to shoot that guy. So that, that kind of gave me give me some faith. 00:48:29:13 - 00:48:56:22 Speaker 1 You know that. You know that it was such a bad situation that even these guys who don't particularly like police officers, you know, they voluntarily came forward and and made a statement. Then the second, the second time I shot a guy, it was like seven months later, not too far from where this one happened. And it was just a call for a bunch of guys in an alleyway with guns. 00:48:57:00 - 00:49:24:00 Speaker 1 And the seventh district got the call. We didn't get the call, but we were right there. So we stopped. And every every police shooting I was involved in and I've been involved with with where my partner shot somebody and I didn't shoot, but it was all every one of them was when we separated and we were like on the first one, my my partner was there, but he just wasn't with me. 00:49:24:05 - 00:49:47:03 Speaker 1 You know, he hadn't gotten around there. The other two times is like on the second one, my second shooting, there was a cut through. It was on Page Avenue, like, but west of Union and they have, you know, those long, like, double blocks that, you know, they have like a walkway that goes through the, you know, the block, you know, where you can go go across the alley. 00:49:47:03 - 00:50:12:00 Speaker 1 And, you know, my partner lets me out. And he was going to go around to the other side. And the district cop was, were coming from the other. The next street over. Well, I'm looking and there's like six guys out there. They all got guns are like showing them to each other. And. So it's like, all right, well, they see the police car pull up where by starts going, you know, scoot. 00:50:12:04 - 00:50:32:12 Speaker 1 You know, go in different ways. Well, the one guy came down my gangway and he didn't see me. I was like, I was around the corner. And when he came up, I grabbed him. I said, you got a gun on? He says, yes, sir. I got one in my jacket pocket. And so I went to get it. It was like a letterman's jacket type of jacket. 00:50:32:14 - 00:50:54:15 Speaker 1 Well, he wasn't fighting me or anything, but he was, but the gun was caught in the lining of this ratty old jacket, and I couldn't get it out, so I said, hey, you know, get down on the ground. You know, I'm going to handcuff you. I'm going to get this, He's cooperating. Well, right. Then I hear boom! 00:50:54:17 - 00:51:11:10 Speaker 1 And I look up and here comes this guy running at me with a gun. And I'm. I'm on top of this guy trying to get this gun out of his pocket. And I had holstered my gun because I needed both hands, and he he was handcuffed. I wasn't worried about. Well, this guy is running. At first, he doesn't see me because I'm on the ground. 00:51:11:11 - 00:51:39:00 Speaker 1 This guy and guys running, and all of a sudden, the last second he sees me and he comes up and click and I get my gun out. And you would think it's like, for me to you in this gangway, the first two shots I shot, I missed him, I guess because I was still pulling my gun. But then the, the the next shot, I hit him and I think I hit him in the elbow. 00:51:39:02 - 00:52:02:11 Speaker 1 But normally you think point blank range. You can't miss. You can miss from point blank range and plus I still got the guy I'm kneeling on who's got a gun in his pocket. Luckily he was handcuffed. But same thing that happened in a flash and, the guy shot. He fell down. He dropped the gun in the street because it was steps going down. 00:52:02:11 - 00:52:33:17 Speaker 1 He rolled down the steps, and then he popped up and ran across page ran through another gangway and lost sight of him. And by then, you know my partner and the other two coppers, you know, they heard the shots and, they came and, you know, and we called for our sergeants and called for homicide. And we found myself one of the homicide, sergeants followed the blood trail a couple blocks, and then it just stopped in an alley. 00:52:33:17 - 00:52:36:20 Speaker 1 So you must have got in a car. Somebody must give him a ride or something. 00:52:36:22 - 00:52:41:16 Speaker 2 And where did you go in your career after being in this pretty intense role? 00:52:41:18 - 00:53:03:15 Speaker 1 Well, after my second shooting, Chief Harmon thought I had to that be a good idea for me to chill out a little bit. So he put me in The Fugitive. Unit, which one day I was up working in these bad neighborhoods. Next day, I was driving the Greenville all night to pick up a prisoner, from penitentiary. 00:53:03:17 - 00:53:33:06 Speaker 1 And it was so. It was so nice, you know? You know, you know, just to be out there. It was a nice day. And we're driving through the countryside and. And, I really enjoyed doing that. Picking up prisoners because you learn how to. I learned how to talk to prisoners because they're. They're already in custody. They're not, you know, they know, you know, it's not like on the street where they're trying to get away or or trying to convince you they didn't do whatever they you know, you're locking them up for. 00:53:33:08 - 00:53:55:19 Speaker 1 They are like, well, you know, I'm being transported because we picked up people had warrants in Saint Louis for only warrants. So if they got arrested in another state, it was all out of state fugitive runs. And, so that they knew, you know, they were good for it or they had a court case coming. And, but we would fly a lot of times. 00:53:55:19 - 00:54:15:14 Speaker 1 And most of the people I brought back had never been on an airplane. And, you know, if there is a badass on the street, they'd never they'd never been on a plane. So these guys would be nervous and they didn't know how to act, you know, and they didn't know what it was like. Plus, the first time you're being on there, you know, you're taking an airplane flight, you're in handcuffs. 00:54:15:16 - 00:54:37:23 Speaker 1 It's got to be kind of weird, too. But, but these guys would talk because they were nervous, and but you got to see, you know, this guy's not just, a rap sheet and a picture. It's it's a human being because you don't get a chance to converse with the bad guys on the street, you know? You know, usually you lock them up, you read them their rights, and they say, I don't. 00:54:37:23 - 00:54:58:18 Speaker 1 I don't have nothing to say. So you don't you don't have conversations with them. And the last thing, if you're a drug dealer or something, what you want to do is stand on the corner and talk to a cop, you know? So. But when you had them in custody, you know, they're calm, they're sober, they're they know that there's no way they're going to get away or whatever. 00:54:58:19 - 00:55:23:17 Speaker 1 They tell you all kinds of stuff about for people in the neighborhood, you know, keep the drugs or hide their guns and stuff. So it was a really neat experience. And then I went from there to, you know, to the first unit, which is where we went to look for fugitives locally. And then, I ended, but I ended up in intelligence eventually. 00:55:23:19 - 00:55:43:23 Speaker 1 I was in a violent crime task force during that time, too, which was a, a new unit at the time. It was kind of it was a temporary unit, pretty much. But we made a lot of good arrests, went to intelligence test, where I got to do a lot of the cool stuff, like with the guarding, you know, dignitaries and things like that. 00:55:43:23 - 00:55:58:18 Speaker 1 But we did a lot of corruption cases. We did gangs, we did, public corruption. We we did, a lot of details like that. 00:55:58:19 - 00:56:00:14 Speaker 2 How did you meet your wife. 00:56:00:16 - 00:56:22:15 Speaker 1 To sit Mizzou in the dorm. She lived the floor below me. And, just we hung around. It was like boys floor girls for boys. And, the Florida she lived on, you know, our floor kind of hung out with that. You know, a lot of the girls on that floor. And this. We just met at a get together, like on a Friday night or something. 00:56:22:15 - 00:56:25:08 Speaker 2 And what attracted you to her? 00:56:25:10 - 00:56:49:05 Speaker 1 You know, very attractive, but, you know, but she just had a really cool demeanor about her. You know, I don't like real loud, boisterous people. And then I don't I also don't prefer people like that don't say anything or, you know, kind of wallflower people. So she just had a really cool demeanor and she just, you know, want to do something. 00:56:49:05 - 00:56:54:18 Speaker 1 She, you know, she. Yeah, sure. Let's do it. You know, some. So it's worked all these all these years. 00:56:54:18 - 00:56:58:19 Speaker 2 And how long after you were married? Did you have kids? 00:56:58:21 - 00:57:26:07 Speaker 1 We didn't get married. I was 29. She was 28. We dated all that time. And it was kind of off and on. There was times when we weren't dating. And, you know, I was it was a roller coaster ride. But, we always got back together, you know, and, so finally, when, you know, 20, I was 29, she was 28, we got married and then we had our first son, like the following year, and then my other son was born two years after that. 00:57:26:08 - 00:57:27:10 Speaker 2 Were you ready to be a dad? 00:57:27:16 - 00:57:55:10 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. You know, by the time you're 30, I think it was, it was time. And, Now it's, you know, it's a blessing. You know, that's ever happened to me. I'm so in my, you know, just, you know, I'm really proud of my kids. Both of them. But they were fun, you know, it was fun raising them. 00:57:55:12 - 00:58:15:16 Speaker 1 They were always good kids, but they never really got in trouble or, you know, they didn't talk back or rebellious, you know, you know, you know, maybe a little bit here and there, but not really. But it's just fun watching them grow and and being an influence on them, you know. 00:58:15:16 - 00:58:17:21 Speaker 2 Do you see yourself in the voice. 00:58:17:23 - 00:58:33:23 Speaker 1 That they're a good combination of their mom and and and me and they both have really good sense of humor and they're both laid back. So they're both really smart and, proud and proud of of them. 00:58:34:01 - 00:58:38:18 Speaker 2 Is there ever a time when they got sick or injured? 00:58:38:20 - 00:59:03:16 Speaker 1 Yeah. You know, not really. My younger son, Matt, was. He was more wild. You know, he used to like to jump on furniture and I usually woke up every day with him when he was real little. He'd run, jump on the. There was like a, like a little Ottoman in front of the bed. He jumped and then, like, laying right on your chest. 00:59:03:16 - 00:59:15:17 Speaker 1 And you know, that's how it woke up, like most days, but, broken collarbone and things like that. But, you know, luckily not nothing. Nothing big. 00:59:15:19 - 00:59:20:13 Speaker 2 And as you look back on what they've accomplished, what are you proud of? 00:59:20:15 - 00:59:53:01 Speaker 1 You know, I'm proud that, the they're good people. I think that's the main thing. They treat people right. There's an old saying, like, if if someone, you know, if you go out there, somebody and they're nice to you, but they're not nice to the employees of the restaurant, they're not nice people or and I think that kind of, you know, that fits in a lot of situations, you know, and I think go back, you know, talking about my dad with the, you know, the bus boys and bus girls showing up at his, you know, at his wake. 00:59:53:02 - 01:00:14:02 Speaker 1 It that meant meant a lot to me because, you know, my dad would spend a lot of money on these restaurants. I expect, you know, it kind of expected to see maybe the, you know, the owner there, which I also I, you know, appreciate it. But, you know, he treated these other people well enough that they took their time out of their, their day to come, you know, pay their respects. 01:00:14:02 - 01:00:40:04 Speaker 1 That that says a lot. And I see a lot of those qualities. And, and my son which that makes me, me proud because, you know, a lot of people, you know, can have good paying jobs and are happy, you know, whatever. But if you're an asshole, then it kind of negates to me most I don't care how much money you got or or what you can do or what, but what's in your garage or whatever. 01:00:40:04 - 01:00:45:01 Speaker 1 It's, it's it's it's how you treat other people. 01:00:45:03 - 01:00:52:21 Speaker 2 A lot of people either try and parent like their parents, or they try and do things really differently. What were you like? 01:00:52:22 - 01:01:14:16 Speaker 1 Like my parents. I think my dad would get more mad at us when we messed up. I tried not to show that. Like if my kids didn't mess up, I. I didn't want to show that anger. And I don't think it really made me angry because I, you know, nobody, nobody has a good day every day. 01:01:14:18 - 01:01:18:03 Speaker 2 How many years have you been with Chris? 01:01:18:05 - 01:01:25:09 Speaker 1 I guess we met 40 years ago. We've been married for 32. 01:01:25:11 - 01:01:26:07 Speaker 2 It's a long time. 01:01:26:08 - 01:01:28:01 Speaker 1 Yeah, man. 01:01:28:03 - 01:01:32:00 Speaker 2 Would you learn about yourself being married that long? 01:01:32:02 - 01:02:09:05 Speaker 1 A lot of little things that used to. We used to argue about or, you know, used to get mad about or I'd do about weren't that big a deal, you know, and, you know, Vance, I, I had a, you know, kind of a revelation one day we had a, a defensive tactics class in and on police department and the whole point of this one exercise was if somebody runs at you, like, charges at you, like they, you know, aggressively, you know, your your natural instinct is to run up and try and hit them harder than they hit you. 01:02:09:05 - 01:02:27:10 Speaker 1 Well, what you end up doing is like, you both get hurt, you know, so you know, the instructor taught well, so he runs at you. What you do is you let him come to you, and you take their body weight and force them down to the ground. You know, you kind of back up and then kind of ride him to the ground and then you end up on top. 01:02:27:10 - 01:02:46:08 Speaker 1 You got the advantage. You know, one day I'm thinking, like every time my wife and I are arguing about something, well, my instinct would be like to say, well, you did this or or I know, you know, but then I just learned, like, hey, take it, take a deep breath, take a step back and say, well, you know, I didn't mean to do that. 01:02:46:10 - 01:03:04:16 Speaker 1 Or if I did do that, I'm sorry. You know, I didn't do it to piss you off. I just you know, whatever. But you end up arguing about little things that don't matter. And, and I just learned over the years is, is just like. 01:03:04:18 - 01:03:27:23 Speaker 1 Let let the little things go, you know? And it's all right if she's mad at me about something that may not be important to me, but it it is important to her, you know, something small, you know, like leaving a towel, you know, on the whatever on the floor, you know, it's. It's all right for her to be mad about that because it's it's annoying her. 01:03:27:23 - 01:03:39:15 Speaker 1 And, you know, she has to pick it up, and and I should have done it, and but I don't get, you know, for me, don't get defensive to say I'm sorry. I won't do it again. 01:03:39:17 - 01:03:47:22 Speaker 2 Let's move to the last segment. This is what we call the wisdom or legacy segment. What is success? 01:03:48:00 - 01:04:18:04 Speaker 1 I really think success is sitting here 61 years old and being, happy, comfortable, satisfied with your life so far? I think, you know, just treat people right and be able to look, you know, in the mirror and say, man, I wish I wouldn't have done this or when I've done that, you know, I think success is just having that ease that, that comfort with your, your life. 01:04:18:06 - 01:04:41:20 Speaker 1 You know, I don't have a bucket list, you know, because I don't I mean, there's a lot of stuff I still want to do, but I feel like I've done so many things during the course of my life that I don't need this, the top things off or this or whatever. I'm kind of more of an opportunist to, you know, I just if an opportunity comes up to do something fun, I'll do it. 01:04:41:20 - 01:05:09:16 Speaker 1 I, I'm not as much of the plan maker is. I'm. I'm the guy that goes along and maybe hopefully enhances the experience. But I may not be the guy who, you know, puts it all together. So. So I think success is is, you know, being happy with with your life, you know, and, you know, you don't really realize it probably while you're doing it as much because like we just said, you're worried about your career, you're worried about your kids growing up, right? 01:05:09:16 - 01:05:23:22 Speaker 1 You're worried about having enough money to sustain. But when you sit back, you know, I, I, I'm completely happy with my life up to this, to this point. 01:05:24:00 - 01:05:29:09 Speaker 2 What was a difficult lesson to learn that was valuable to know? 01:05:29:11 - 01:06:13:23 Speaker 1 I think it's something that I learned recently. And dealing, you know, I was the primary caretaker for my uncle in there, you know, in their later years. And they both had a lot of medical problems and, and, in and out of hospital. Dealing with this, the, you know, the anguish of getting old and being, you know, you know, I think the lesson is, don't wait for the golden years because you know, when you're 80 isn't the golden years because you're chances are you're old, even if you're in relatively good health as an 80 year old, you can't do what you did when you were 60 years old or 40 years old, obviously. 01:06:14:01 - 01:06:43:10 Speaker 1 And you, despite seeing them go through that, I think it really taught me to, appreciate what what what you have, you know, when you have it, and you can get to the point where you know you're alive, you're fighting to stay alive, but you're not really living life the way you want to. And the natural thing is to fight, you know, get every breath out of life is you can. 01:06:43:12 - 01:07:08:23 Speaker 1 But toward the end, I could see they both were like, I'm. I'm waving the white flag. You know, it's so I just want to live my life, you know, to the fullest. And, you know, I, you know, when you get to that point where you, you just you can't do the simple things that you want to do, you know, you can't go where you want to go. 01:07:08:23 - 01:07:27:18 Speaker 1 Where do you want to go? There. You know, you don't know when your next trip to the hospital is going to be. I, I just, I think at that point I'm not going to fight for every breath. I you know, that sounds kind of morbid, but I just you just the sole purpose of life is to enjoy it. 01:07:27:18 - 01:07:53:02 Speaker 1 When you think about it, you know, no matter how hard you work, no matter whatever at the end, you, you you die, you know? And if you know, you just, you know, I just want to kind of go out gracefully, hopefully. And, But that's, that's the lesson I learned because I, that that really kind of, you know, it was hard going through that with them, just seeing how much it hurt them and how how unhappy they were. 01:07:53:04 - 01:07:56:01 Speaker 2 What do you think happens when you die? 01:07:56:03 - 01:08:35:11 Speaker 1 I don't know whether your life energy goes, you know, you know, it's I don't really think that I'm afloat up in, you know, the clouds, you know, maybe metaphorically, maybe. Maybe there is something that your life passes on or your energy. But I don't know. I'm not a big religious person, so I can't really, you know, I believe in a higher being of some sort, obviously, because there's there's no way you can explain for why all this is here, you know, and why you and I are here, but I don't I mean, I don't think anybody obviously knows for sure everybody has their beliefs. 01:08:35:13 - 01:08:48:09 Speaker 1 But I think maybe in the end we're all kind of believing the same thing. We just call it different things and it's almost so mind blowing. I don't I don't waste too much time thinking about it because I don't think I'll figure it out. 01:08:48:11 - 01:08:54:11 Speaker 2 What should your future generations know about what it is to be a frank. 01:08:54:13 - 01:09:24:02 Speaker 1 You know, to work hard, you know, to, you know, to get good grades, you know, to learn things. But, when I, when I try to teach my kids and what I hope that they, they continue as, you know, when I, when I go out or my wife and I go out a lot of times we took our kids, we'd sit up at the bar and the kids would sit at the bar with us, and my son would turn and talk to some old guy sitting next to him. 01:09:24:02 - 01:09:51:03 Speaker 1 And because I taught a man, you know, my wife taught him that if you sit next to somebody, say hi to him, you know, you can always, like, get up and walk and get another seat if they're rude or they're angry or something. But, you know, get to know people, you know, that's one of the things that the cool experiences in life, it doesn't cost anything to be nice to somebody, doesn't, you know, when you go up to I like listening to people rather because I know what I've done. 01:09:51:03 - 01:10:15:10 Speaker 1 You know, I like to learn because sometimes you meet somebody, an old person, they look kind of crabby, but you start talking to them and they've had this, like, amazing life. And you would never know if if you didn't take some time to talk to them. And that's why I like, like doing interviews because I like, I don't want I don't think I should have to talk very much on an interview, you know, because I want to hear what they have to say. 01:10:15:10 - 01:10:53:12 Speaker 1 I, I know what I know and interviewing prisoners, you know, you just you are suspects. You you let them talk, you know, you let them, you know, you, but you know, not just get them to say what you want them to say, you know, but let them talk about themselves, you know, so I you know, I think that's the thing that my kids have that, that now especially my younger son Matt, is, when he was a little kid, you know, we go to, like, my hangout down on Hampton Place called Bruno's. 01:10:53:12 - 01:11:11:18 Speaker 1 And he was like, you know, 13 years old. We go to a hockey game, and you just start talking to patrons at bar. He's like, get that guy a beer, you know? And you know, it. It was it's it's just neat, you know? So, you know, enjoy life and get to know people I think people what makes it interesting. 01:11:11:20 - 01:11:14:23 Speaker 2 Was there any question that I didn't ask that I should have? 01:11:15:01 - 01:11:38:07 Speaker 1 I didn't really give a lot of thought to this interview before I did it, because I just wanted to see what, you know, see what flowed. But I think I really got out the things that I, I think it's important that somebody watches this, you know, after I'm gone that, you know, kind of captures, you know, kind of what my life has been about to this point. 01:11:38:12 - 01:11:40:06 Speaker 1 So I appreciate him. 01:11:40:08 - 01:11:44:05 Speaker 2 How do you hope your family and friends commemorate you when you're gone? 01:11:44:07 - 01:12:22:04 Speaker 1 Everybody just to get together and, you know, have a party and just, you know, talk about, you know, the good times. You know, I don't, You know, I think, you know, in a lot of cases nowadays, people don't want the big, you know, morbid, not morbid, but, you know, the funeral and all the sadness and stuff is, hey, everybody's going to, you know, well, when people like, when my aunt and uncle died, when my mom and dad died, you know, you grieve on your own, you grieve with your family in that. 01:12:22:04 - 01:12:48:06 Speaker 1 But I don't I think people are getting away from this long, drawn out, you know? You know, when I was a kid, I remember, you know, there was like, two day weeks, and. And you spent the whole day, you know, and you know, you know, on the funeral day and the burial and all that. You know, I think I just want people to look back and say, you know, you know, he was a fun guy to be around or, you know, he, you know, whatever. 01:12:48:06 - 01:12:54:21 Speaker 1 He, you know, his good friend, loyal friend, that means most to me. I think. 01:12:54:23 - 01:13:00:00 Speaker 2 So maybe the last question. When was the last time you laughed really hard? 01:13:00:02 - 01:13:22:06 Speaker 1 Like I said, you know, and that's one thing about police department. I laughed my ass off at least once a day, every day, because something funny happened, either in the station, policemen or funny. A lot of police officers are funny, and there's a lot of funny people out there in the public that, that you come across. But, you know, I laughed. 01:13:22:12 - 01:13:43:08 Speaker 1 We had a, a guy on the podcast who, you know, we do a Zen moment every time. And he was our fill in Zen guy. So he got into the role because he, he, he put these, like, Chinese outfit on and, you know, and stuff. And it was unexpected. And he just really pulled it off. It it wasn't disrespectful or anything. 01:13:43:08 - 01:14:10:06 Speaker 1 It was just really funny and but I laugh all the time. You know, I, you know, Pink Panther movie came on the other day and I was I was rolling on the floor laughing, you know. You know, it just, you know, you you got to laugh every day. It it's something, you know, it might be a chuckle, might be, a gut laugh, but I yeah, I probably laughed hard yesterday at something, you know, some. 01:14:10:08 - 01:14:21:02 Speaker 1 And I think that's the best medicine in the world. You know, good laugh. And every day, you know, you know, you'll be a lot better off. You know, mentally I think. 01:14:21:04 - 01:14:24:13 Speaker 2 Well, John Frank, it was an honor doing this interview with you. 01:14:24:13 - 01:14:40:17 Speaker 1 Thank you. It was an honor being here. And I really appreciate it. It was fun. And, I didn't do any research on, on on the subject matter like I usually have to do, you know, because it's easy talking about yourself. So I appreciate it. Vance. 01:14:40:19 - 01:14:47:10 Speaker 2 Well, before we go, tell everybody about your podcast, in which you talk about and how it all works. 01:14:47:12 - 01:15:14:19 Speaker 1 It's called The Brighter Side of Blue. Three retired officers, myself, Tom Sawyer, who I work with, I've known for years. Dan Howard, he's retired major, and he was my brother's best friend growing up. So I've known Dan since he was a little kid. And then Jimmy Joyner from JJ, he he's still an active lieutenant on the police department, is the commander of the mobile reserve. 01:15:14:21 - 01:15:44:18 Speaker 1 So it's a neat perspective. Based on our kind of varied, background, but we try to show positive things of law enforcement and law enforcement officers. We also use it as an opportunity to to kind of archive and memorialize, different we talk about, incidents, crimes. We had the South Side rapist and national food murders from years ago. 01:15:44:20 - 01:16:17:03 Speaker 1 But we, but we also just, talk about different officers characters. So. It depends. It's very free, you know, flowing. Some just we've had some where we just sit around and tell our stories, you know, our own war stories, you know? But we've had people like Joel Bergen on and Harry Hager, like, kind of legendary, figures that, you know, during our career that, but it's a chance to. 01:16:17:05 - 01:16:40:00 Speaker 1 Preserve these stories and preserve and actually hear these stories from people who lived it and who were involved in, these different, escapades. So it's but we don't, you know, we try to stay out of politics. We try we try not to gripe and and bitch about things. We try to have a we have a few good laughs. 01:16:40:00 - 01:17:01:18 Speaker 1 We pick on each other. You know, normally we drink beer the whole time we're doing it. You know, it's just we do it from a bar from Colombo's bar. But it's supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be informative. But, we do get into some serious things. You know, we had officer talk about his partner getting killed in the line of duty. 01:17:01:19 - 01:17:25:00 Speaker 1 You know, he. And, you know, he told first time he's told it in a public kind of form. It was pretty poignant. And then we also heard in a later episode from that officer that Dido's widow and, you know, hearing how that from her perspective, how she found out how she's coped and how you know, where she's at now with her life. 01:17:25:02 - 01:17:58:15 Speaker 1 We've talked to some old school guys. We've talked to some younger people, but hopefully it's it's entertainment and, I think it's a it's a neat look back into the lives of, of police officers. And, and if you are an officer, I think a lot of the older officers like hearing these stories again. Retired guys like to hear these names and and hear about these events, but it's, brighter side of blue, and we're on Spotify. 01:17:58:15 - 01:18:23:15 Speaker 1 We're on YouTube. We have we do video with them. Not the first 5 or 6. We're probably, all just audio. But then Jack Milliken, who you know very well, came on board and Jack does an amazing job, you know, putting us on film. And he does all our editing and, just really kind of brilliant, talented kid, as you know. 01:18:23:16 - 01:18:31:22 Speaker 1 And he's helped us out a lot. And he takes her calls, you know, when we can't figure out how to play the, the video and stuff like that, but. 01:18:32:00 - 01:18:51:14 Speaker 2 Well, I, I, I for one, love your podcast. I listen to the ones on stakeouts and intelligence stuff, and I really have found that, it illuminates a side of the world that I try and stay away from. And I, I think it's that's the powerful thing. So thank you for putting that on. And thanks for sitting down to do this. 01:18:51:16 - 01:18:58:23 Speaker 1 No, you know, we really enjoy doing the podcast and, now we're big Vance Grow fans. 01:18:59:01 - 01:18:59:13 Speaker 2 Thank you.