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“Biden v. Florida Man.” · Pod Save America

0:20
Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Pfeiffer.
0:22
Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
0:24
Speaker 1: On today's pod, President Biden tells Republican governors who won't
0:27
Speaker 1: help end the pandemic to get out of the way.
0:29
Speaker 1: Congressman Mondaire Jones talks to me about the new eviction moratorium.
0:33
Speaker 1: And as House Democrats start to worry aloud about losing
0:35
Speaker 1: their majority in 2022, some new polling from Data for
0:38
Speaker 1: Progress tells us which messages just might save the House.
0:42
Speaker 1: But first, good news. You can now binge the entire
0:46
Speaker 1: season of Edith, a scripted podcast from Crooked and QCode.
0:50
Speaker 1: As Vulture puts it, Edith is a fiction podcast that
0:53
Speaker 1: stands as a really good time minute to minute, and
0:55
Speaker 1: that's no small feat. And don't miss the latest episode
0:58
Speaker 1: of America Dissected where Dr. Abdul El-Sayed is joined by
1:01
Speaker 1: the author of The Green New Deal, Rihanna Gunn-Wright. Listen
1:04
Speaker 1: to Edith in America Dissected wherever you get your podcasts.
1:09
Speaker 1: All right, let's get to the news. Just last week,
1:13
Speaker 1: we were debating on this very podcast, whether President Biden
1:16
Speaker 1: should come out in favor of vaccine requirements, which the
1:19
Speaker 1: White House had been hesitant to do. All that changed
1:22
Speaker 1: on Tuesday, when the president not only urged cities and
1:25
Speaker 1: states to require proof of vaccination for restaurants and other
1:28
Speaker 1: public spaces, He also called out Republican governors who've banned
1:31
Speaker 1: businesses and schools from acquiring vaccines or masks. Here's a clip.
1:37
Speaker 3: If some governors aren't willing to do the right thing
1:39
Speaker 3: to beat this pandemic, then they should allow businesses and
1:42
Speaker 3: universities who want to do the right thing to be
1:45
Speaker 3: able to do it. I say to these governors, please help.
1:50
Speaker 3: But you aren't going to help at least get out
1:52
Speaker 3: of the way of the people who are trying to
1:55
Speaker 3: do the right thing.
1:56
Speaker 1: So when we talked about this last Monday— Tommy and
2:00
Speaker 1: Lovett argued that Biden himself using the bully pulpit to
2:04
Speaker 1: push vaccine requirements might risk further polarizing the issue. I disagreed.
2:10
Speaker 1: What do you think?
2:13
Speaker 2: Is it... Should I say you're both right or should
2:16
Speaker 2: I say you're both wrong?
2:19
Speaker 1: I mean, the hottest take would be that we're both
2:21
Speaker 1: wrong and then you can, you know, you can just
2:24
Speaker 1: slide right in there as the right one. I think.
2:30
Speaker 2: I don't know whether you're both right or.
2:31
Speaker 1: You're both wrong. It's not the most collegial answer, but,
2:34
Speaker 1: you know, it's the hottest take.
2:37
Speaker 2: That's the goal, right? It's the hottest take.
2:40
Speaker 1: That's what we're doing here.
2:41
Speaker 2: Tell Elijah to get this clip ready because it's going
2:42
Speaker 2: to be searing hot today. No, in all seriousness. It
2:46
Speaker 2: is definitely going to polarize the idea of vaccine mandates more,
2:51
Speaker 2: but I think that is also a risk worth taking.
2:53
Speaker 2: I don't think there's another choice. In an era of
2:55
Speaker 2: negative polarization, Joe Biden, speaking about anything, will polarize it
2:59
Speaker 2: in some way among Republicans, right? If Biden were to
3:03
Speaker 2: come out and announce that he has decided the grass
3:06
Speaker 2: is green and the sky is blue, there are going
3:08
Speaker 2: to be some of the Republicans who are going to
3:10
Speaker 2: switch their opinion and think the sky is green and
3:12
Speaker 2: the grass is blue. That's just the world in which
3:13
Speaker 2: we live. But he should do it because it's the
3:16
Speaker 2: right thing to do. These governors are– they are killing people.
3:22
Speaker 2: I mean it seems like a horrible thing to say,
3:24
Speaker 2: but people are going to die because of this. People
3:26
Speaker 2: are going to get sick because of it. People are
3:27
Speaker 2: going to lose their jobs because of it. Kids are
3:29
Speaker 2: going to miss out on school and have their education
3:32
Speaker 2: messed with because of it. And he should absolutely call
3:36
Speaker 2: it out because the people in the– Joe Biden is right.
3:39
Speaker 2: He's right on the science. He's right on the medicine.
3:42
Speaker 2: And he is right politically. In these states, the majority
3:47
Speaker 2: of people agree with Joe Biden about mask mandates and
3:50
Speaker 2: vaccine mandates and those situations. But so he should absolutely
3:55
Speaker 2: call it out so that the residents of those states
3:56
Speaker 2: know whose fucking fault it is that this is happening.
3:59
Speaker 2: It's not Joe Biden's fault. It's not random unvaccinated people
4:02
Speaker 2: going around. It's a bunch of Republican politicians who are
4:06
Speaker 2: doing performative cruelty on behalf of a minority of their
4:11
Speaker 2: citizens who have a disproportionate amount of political power. And
4:14
Speaker 2: I am very worked up about this. It is because
4:17
Speaker 2: you know who is being– this may seem obvious right now.
4:20
Speaker 2: But the people who are at most risk because of
4:23
Speaker 2: this are the kids who have no choice about being vaccinated.
4:27
Speaker 2: They're all going back to school. They're all at much
4:29
Speaker 2: greater risk. And there's obviously lots of questions about whether
4:33
Speaker 2: kids get it as often or they get it as bad.
4:35
Speaker 2: But that's not even really the point, is that by
4:38
Speaker 2: your choice to not get vaccinated, it's not just about
4:41
Speaker 2: you deciding to put yourself at risk. You're putting everyone
4:45
Speaker 2: else at risk and you're putting children at risk. And
4:47
Speaker 2: I think the.
4:49
Speaker 2: The children aspect of this, the risk that people are
4:51
Speaker 2: putting to kids should be pointed out more because that
4:53
Speaker 2: is what– that's what's coming to Florida schools. These kids
4:55
Speaker 2: are all going to go back to school in many
4:56
Speaker 2: cases without a mask mandate because Ron DeSantis said they
5:00
Speaker 2: can't do it. Even if you are a school or
5:01
Speaker 2: a city, you want to do the right thing. And
5:03
Speaker 2: so Biden calling that out is the right thing to do.
5:06
Speaker 2: I think it could in some ways put– it might
5:08
Speaker 2: polarize it some among people who already feel this way,
5:11
Speaker 2: but it could put political pressure on them to do
5:13
Speaker 2: something different.
5:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, my view on this is that I care a
5:18
Speaker 1: lot about polarization and persuasion when the goal is to
5:22
Speaker 1: try to get votes. We're not trying to get votes
5:24
Speaker 1: right now. We're trying to get shots in arms, right?
5:26
Speaker 1: So the persuasion thing has run its course. The goal
5:30
Speaker 1: is to get shots in arms. First and most importantly,
5:33
Speaker 1: vaccine requirements save lives and they work. There's consistently 6%
5:36
Speaker 1: to 7% of people in polls who say that they
5:39
Speaker 1: will not get the vaccine unless they are required to.
5:41
Speaker 1: And then if they're required to, they will. That translates
5:44
Speaker 1: to millions of people nationwide. France did this, and as
5:47
Speaker 1: soon as they announced a vaccine requirement, millions and millions
5:49
Speaker 1: of people signed up in the next 48 hours. It worked. Second,
5:53
Speaker 1: like you said, vaccine requirements are popular. A poll of 20,000
5:57
Speaker 1: adults in June found that 64% support a requirement that
6:01
Speaker 1: everyone get vaccinated, including 45% of Republicans. It is an
6:04
Speaker 1: issue that divides the Republican Party. 70% of all voters
6:08
Speaker 1: support a requirement for air travel, and 61% support a
6:12
Speaker 1: vaccine requirement for schools. Second, Even if they weren't popular
6:17
Speaker 1: or even if they cause a huge backlash from the
6:19
Speaker 1: right wing media ecosystem, I would argue that this would
6:23
Speaker 1: still be good politics for Joe Biden. And here's why.
6:25
Speaker 1: The White House has understood since day one that voters
6:29
Speaker 1: top priority is killing the pandemic and reviving the economy.
6:34
Speaker 1: And this is how you kill the pandemic. And like,
6:36
Speaker 1: I don't think you can crush the pandemic without a
6:39
Speaker 1: vaccine requirement at this point. persuading vaccine-hesitant Americans will only
6:43
Speaker 1: get you so far, and it will definitely not get
6:46
Speaker 1: us anywhere close to herd immunity, which we may never
6:49
Speaker 1: reach anyway at this point. But vaccine requirements at this
6:53
Speaker 1: point are our only chance. And again, vaccine requirements are
6:57
Speaker 1: giving Americans choices. You got three choices. One, you can
7:03
Speaker 1: get a free, safe, life-saving vaccine Two, you can pay
7:09
Speaker 1: out of your pocket to get regularly tested and wear
7:11
Speaker 1: a mask, perhaps for years indefinitely. Or three, you can
7:15
Speaker 1: stay home. Those are your three choices. The choice that
7:19
Speaker 1: you don't get is to endanger the rest of us
7:21
Speaker 1: by going out into public places unvaccinated and unmasked. That's
7:25
Speaker 1: your choice.
7:26
Speaker 2: It is just the conversation around this is so wild.
7:28
Speaker 2: It's like no one has stopped to think about it
7:31
Speaker 2: for two fucking seconds. You know what's not revolutionary or new?
7:35
Speaker 2: Vaccine requirements. Kyla starts preschool this week. You know what
7:39
Speaker 2: I have to do? I have to go to her
7:40
Speaker 2: doctor and get her doctor to sign a piece of
7:42
Speaker 2: paper where it says she's been vaccinated against a whole
7:43
Speaker 2: bunch of diseases that have been controlled for decades. Yet,
7:46
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of people think they have a right
7:47
Speaker 2: to get on a fucking airplane unvaccinated for a virus
7:50
Speaker 2: that is raging across the country right now. If you
7:53
Speaker 2: go to college, you just require a vaccination, right? It
7:57
Speaker 2: is just absolutely wild. You do not have unlimited freedom, right?
8:01
Speaker 2: Like there are privileges and requirements of citizenship. There's a
8:06
Speaker 2: reason you have to wear a seatbelt when you're in
8:08
Speaker 2: a car or you have to wear a helmet if
8:10
Speaker 2: you drive a motorcycle because your freedom to choose that
8:13
Speaker 2: costs us all this money because you end up getting injured, killed,
8:18
Speaker 2: ending up in the hospital. Like there are requirements. This
8:21
Speaker 2: is a basic thing. And you're right. If you want
8:23
Speaker 2: to stay home, you can stay home. Like you can
8:26
Speaker 2: do that. But you do not have a right to
8:28
Speaker 2: get on an airplane. You don't have a right to
8:29
Speaker 2: bring a knife on an airplane or– frankly, even a
8:32
Speaker 2: bottle of water through the airport security these days. And
8:37
Speaker 2: so this keeps being treated in the conversation around it
8:40
Speaker 2: as if this is some crazy thing that was just
8:43
Speaker 2: invented by George Soros and a bunch of Hollywood elites.
8:49
Speaker 2: It has been the common way in which we have
8:51
Speaker 2: done things since vaccines were invented. And it's not radical
8:55
Speaker 2: to do it now.
8:56
Speaker 4: It's not.
8:57
Speaker 1: And Democrats should not shy away from this. I lean
8:59
Speaker 1: into this fight. Do not accept the Republican framing here
9:01
Speaker 1: that this is some fucking federal government mandate, blah, blah, blah, bullshit.
9:05
Speaker 1: We are the ones offering people a choice. Republicans are
9:08
Speaker 1: not offering people the choice to live in a country
9:11
Speaker 1: where it's safe to be in public. Yeah.
9:13
Speaker 2: Do you know what's big government authoritarianism? Governors telling local
9:18
Speaker 2: cities and schools what they can teach in classroom or
9:22
Speaker 2: whether kids have to wear masks or not. That is...
9:25
Speaker 2: That is not freedom or individualism. That is big government authoritarianism.
9:32
Speaker 1: Which brings us to these Republican governors that Joe Biden
9:35
Speaker 1: was talking about. They obviously didn't take too kindly to
9:38
Speaker 1: Biden's suggestion. Florida's Ron DeSantis, who signed an executive order
9:43
Speaker 1: this week threatening to withhold funding from schools that require
9:47
Speaker 1: mask mandates amid a record number of COVID cases and
9:50
Speaker 1: hospitalizations in his state, including... 21,000 infections among children just
9:56
Speaker 1: this week. He had this to say to President Biden.
9:58
Speaker 5: Joe Biden has taken to himself to try to single
10:02
Speaker 5: out Florida over COVID. This is a guy who ran
10:06
Speaker 5: for president saying he was gonna, quote, shut down the virus.
10:09
Speaker 4: And what has he done?
10:11
Speaker 5: He's imported more virus from around the world by having
10:14
Speaker 5: a wide open southern border. Why don't you do your job?
10:18
Speaker 5: Why don't you get this border secure? And until you
10:21
Speaker 5: do that, I don't want to hear a blip about
10:24
Speaker 5: COVID from you. Thank you.
10:27
Speaker 1: Now is the moment where I once again remind you
10:28
Speaker 1: all of the following Politico headline from March 18th, 2021.
10:33
Speaker 1: How Ron DeSantis won the pandemic. Dan, tell us how
10:37
Speaker 1: he did it. How did he win this pandemic? By
10:39
Speaker 1: having record hospitalizations, record COVID cases months into the vaccination campaigns?
10:47
Speaker 2: Must we insist on making all the same mistakes over again?
10:51
Speaker 4: Right.
10:51
Speaker 2: This is, yeah, it is like this is Ron DeSantis
10:54
Speaker 2: didn't win the pandemic. What happened was Republicans spent decades
10:58
Speaker 2: convincing the mainstream media that they had to swerve out
11:00
Speaker 2: of their way whenever there was a chance to possibly
11:04
Speaker 2: say Republicans were right and Democrats were wrong. And they
11:07
Speaker 2: put up a giant fucking journalistic mission accomplished banner in
11:09
Speaker 2: Florida long before the virus was crushed. It's just absolute stupidity.
11:15
Speaker 2: And again, I mean, like that, like we make this
11:21
Speaker 2: all the time. That's just like Fox News, right wing media,
11:23
Speaker 2: Mad Libs, right? Joe Biden, border people, Joe Biden's importing
11:29
Speaker 2: COVID across the southern border. What the fuck are you
11:31
Speaker 2: talking about? It's spreading in your state, which I would
11:34
Speaker 2: mind you is not on the border. You are surrounded
11:38
Speaker 2: by water unless you are worried about people coming in
11:39
Speaker 2: from Georgia and Alabama, right? Like it is just so stupid.
11:43
Speaker 2: Everyone's like, yeah, what a smart thing to say.
11:46
Speaker 1: This is a Fox thing now and it's, and it
11:47
Speaker 1: started showing up in some polls cause they've done some
11:50
Speaker 1: polls on like, um, who is to blame for the
11:52
Speaker 1: rise in COVID cases and the majority of Americans say
11:54
Speaker 1: the unvaccinated. But then when you look by party split,
11:58
Speaker 1: many Republicans, if not a majority of the party, I
12:01
Speaker 1: can't remember the poll, um, now say that foreign travelers
12:05
Speaker 1: or foreigners from into the United States are responsible for
12:08
Speaker 1: the rise in COVID cases. And sure enough on Fox,
12:11
Speaker 1: you see all the time what DeSantis is saying is
12:13
Speaker 1: that somehow it is the it is this what's happening
12:16
Speaker 1: at the Southern border and people coming in from Mexico
12:19
Speaker 1: that are bringing in COVID. And that's why we have
12:21
Speaker 1: rising cases. Now that's the new conspiracy theory floating around
12:24
Speaker 1: on the right, which, you know, neatly ties together, um,
12:28
Speaker 1: COVID denialism with, um, you know, their, uh, their immigration, uh, attacks.
12:33
Speaker 2: That always reminds me that Tom Cotton, double Harvard graduate
12:37
Speaker 2: in 2014, when he was running for Senate threw out there,
12:41
Speaker 2: the idea that ISIS, uh, ISIS was infecting undocumented immigrants
12:46
Speaker 2: with Ebola and sneaking them across the border as a
12:50
Speaker 2: bio weapon.
12:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, real bank shot there.
12:52
Speaker 2: That's the triple Indy of right wing paranoia right there.
12:57
Speaker 1: Jesus. I mean, it's not just DeSantis. You know, Jen
13:01
Speaker 1: Psaki pointed this out at the White House briefing. Seven
13:03
Speaker 1: states have both a statewide ban on mask mandates and
13:06
Speaker 1: a prohibition on school districts from requiring masks in schools.
13:09
Speaker 1: And some states, as you pointed out, have even banned
13:11
Speaker 1: businesses and universities from requiring workers and students to be vaccinated.
13:15
Speaker 1: In Texas, a teacher can be fined if they ask
13:18
Speaker 1: a student if they're vaccinated or if they ask unvaccinated
13:23
Speaker 1: students to wear a mask. Un-fucking-believable. My question is, like,
13:26
Speaker 1: how does Biden crush the pandemic when governors of big
13:29
Speaker 1: red states like Florida and Texas refuse to require masks
13:33
Speaker 1: or vaccines?
13:35
Speaker 2: He probably can't. I mean, what I think they are doing,
13:39
Speaker 2: and I think it's using the limited tools in their toolbox,
13:42
Speaker 2: is they are now working aggressively to encourage businesses and
13:47
Speaker 2: others to put in place vaccine mandates.
13:49
Speaker 1: And I think that's probably how he does it. He
13:51
Speaker 1: gets around these governors by just appealing directly to businesses, universities,
13:55
Speaker 1: and other private sector entities that could impose these vaccine
13:58
Speaker 1: requirements on their own.
13:59
Speaker 2: And he has been using the bully pulpit, if you will,
14:04
Speaker 2: to raise concerns about Delta. And we've seen that that
14:08
Speaker 2: is working, right? We are seeing record numbers of new
14:12
Speaker 2: vaccinations on a daily basis coming out of the white
14:15
Speaker 2: house COVID team. And so it like people are, there
14:20
Speaker 2: was a group of people who were unwilling to be
14:22
Speaker 2: vaccinated prior to this, who now see the spread of
14:24
Speaker 2: Delta and are worried about it and are getting vaccinated.
14:27
Speaker 2: Now that's not happening at anywhere near the rate we
14:30
Speaker 2: need it to. And it's certainly not happening with the
14:32
Speaker 2: sort of geographic, uh, diversity that we need it to.
14:36
Speaker 2: Because one of the problems we have is this right now,
14:39
Speaker 2: where COVID is the worst, happens to be in the
14:41
Speaker 2: places that are least likely to get support from their
14:44
Speaker 2: local elected officials for mask mandates and for businesses to
14:48
Speaker 2: put in place vaccine mandates. And so this is very,
14:51
Speaker 2: very hard. It is like these people are, the Republican
14:54
Speaker 2: politicians are making it, they're screwing everyone for the, right?
14:58
Speaker 2: Because what happens in Florida, Texas affects everyone else in
15:02
Speaker 2: the country. But Biden is doing what he can do,
15:05
Speaker 2: but we should be crystal clear that it is very–
15:08
Speaker 2: it is limited. He has limited authority to do this.
15:10
Speaker 2: One thing that I think is interesting is that there
15:11
Speaker 2: was a report that Secretary– Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin was
15:14
Speaker 2: looking at getting a vaccine mandate in place for all
15:18
Speaker 2: active duty troops. Like that would be a huge way
15:20
Speaker 2: of doing it. Like there's– you have sort of– like
15:22
Speaker 2: every person vaccinated helps a lot. And so like you're
15:26
Speaker 2: going to sort of– there's not one thing that you
15:28
Speaker 2: can do to get it done, but there's lots of
15:29
Speaker 2: things that are happening that are clearly having an impact.
15:33
Speaker 1: And I think part of the strategy in Biden's speech
15:35
Speaker 1: and calling out Republican governors, which, you know, Biden doesn't
15:38
Speaker 1: tend to call out Republicans a lot, is to make
15:40
Speaker 1: it clear who's at fault here. And, you know, sure enough,
15:44
Speaker 1: according to a new St. Pete poll in Florida, Ron
15:47
Speaker 1: DeSantis' approval went from 55-40 in May to 44-49 today.
15:53
Speaker 1: And you have to wonder if that has to do
15:56
Speaker 1: with the fact that his state is now seeing record
15:59
Speaker 1: COVID cases and hospitalizations and people are not that happy
16:04
Speaker 1: with the way he's handling the pandemic. I don't know
16:06
Speaker 1: what else it could be.
16:07
Speaker 4: What do you think?
16:07
Speaker 2: I think that's right. He's certainly suffering from the fact
16:10
Speaker 2: that I think a lot of people in Florida and
16:13
Speaker 2: around the country thought this was largely behind us, that
16:15
Speaker 2: we were on a sort of inexorable path towards normalcy.
16:20
Speaker 2: And now we have taken a huge step back. It's
16:23
Speaker 2: just in people's lives, right? People are putting either because
16:26
Speaker 2: they have to or because they choose to wear masks.
16:29
Speaker 2: Kids are going back to school. And I think there
16:31
Speaker 2: was a lot of hope that that would feel much
16:32
Speaker 2: more normal, maybe no masks, maybe much less fear of COVID,
16:37
Speaker 2: the world in which like one kid coughs and everyone
16:40
Speaker 2: is in a panic. If you've ever had to stick
16:43
Speaker 2: a Q-tip up your child's nose for an antigen test,
16:48
Speaker 2: that is a fucking horrible experience. And parents are having
16:50
Speaker 2: to deal with that. And so that's obviously affecting him.
16:53
Speaker 2: What that means for 2022 or his role as the
16:56
Speaker 2: 2024 non-Trump front runner, I think is a very different question.
16:59
Speaker 2: But In the moment, it is clearly hurting him.
17:02
Speaker 1: We should also talk about how this latest COVID surge
17:04
Speaker 1: is maybe affecting Biden's approval. Five thirty eight has him
17:09
Speaker 1: at fifty point six percent average approval rating, which is
17:13
Speaker 1: the lowest of his presidency. And worse than that, Dan,
17:16
Speaker 1: Chris Eliza says that Biden just had the worst week
17:20
Speaker 1: of his presidency. So I don't know where he goes
17:22
Speaker 1: from there. He should probably quit now. A Politico morning
17:27
Speaker 1: consult poll from this week also found that 67 percent
17:30
Speaker 1: of voters believe that unvaccinated people bear the blame for
17:33
Speaker 1: the rising covid cases. But to me, again, we just
17:36
Speaker 1: talked about DeSantis like the dip in Biden's approval still
17:39
Speaker 1: feels like people are cranky and pissed off that this
17:45
Speaker 1: fucking pandemic is getting worse again. They're not feeling great
17:48
Speaker 1: about the economy and they're taking it out on the
17:50
Speaker 1: guy in charge, at least temporarily.
17:52
Speaker 4: I don't know.
17:53
Speaker 1: What do you think? Am I missing something there?
17:55
Speaker 2: No, you're not. I think it's– we should just– I
17:58
Speaker 2: would put this in the worry about everything, panic about
18:01
Speaker 2: nothing category because 50.6 is his lowest. But I think
18:06
Speaker 2: his highest was like– when you get right past like
18:09
Speaker 2: the first week after inauguration, it was like 53. He's
18:11
Speaker 2: been in a very narrow band the whole time. There's
18:13
Speaker 2: been a lot of attention on this morning console poll,
18:15
Speaker 2: which showed this huge drop for Biden. But that poll
18:17
Speaker 2: had his approval rating at 62, which was 10 to
18:20
Speaker 2: 11 points higher than what his average was at the time.
18:23
Speaker 2: And this is a pretty typical thing that happens in
18:25
Speaker 2: media polling is you get this giant outlier that makes
18:28
Speaker 2: things look rosier than they are. And then it comes–
18:30
Speaker 2: you get a normal poll and all those coverage is like,
18:33
Speaker 2: how did Biden lose 10 points in a week as
18:35
Speaker 2: opposed to the reality is your poll was wrong? And
18:37
Speaker 2: it works the other way too, right? Where it's You
18:39
Speaker 2: get an outlier on the low side and then it's like,
18:41
Speaker 2: come back, come back, kid, because it comes back to
18:44
Speaker 2: the average. But underneath the overall approval rating, to your point,
18:49
Speaker 2: there are some troubling– or at least troubling or at
18:53
Speaker 2: least concerning trends worth looking at. In a different Politico
18:57
Speaker 2: Morning Consult poll, there are 59% of people– blame Biden's
19:03
Speaker 2: policies for inflation and the rising cost of things, as
19:06
Speaker 2: opposed to just people's returning to normal. And that includes
19:08
Speaker 2: 41% of Democrats. And so there was a lot of
19:12
Speaker 2: dismissing of the political concerns around inflation a few months ago.
19:18
Speaker 2: That seems to be pretty real politically, at least. And
19:20
Speaker 2: maybe inflation will come down. As time goes on, we
19:23
Speaker 2: don't know. But right now, it's a problem. And your
19:27
Speaker 2: point on COVID-related pessimism is the Navigator research folks have
19:30
Speaker 2: a poll out this morning And they have this really
19:33
Speaker 2: interesting question where they ask people, is the worst of
19:36
Speaker 2: the pandemic ahead of us or behind us? And the
19:38
Speaker 2: number of people who think the worst of the pandemic
19:40
Speaker 2: is ahead of us has gone up double digits among
19:42
Speaker 2: all groups since their last poll, And which also makes sense, right?
19:46
Speaker 2: Like if you just like, if you were to just
19:48
Speaker 2: like teleport yourself back a few weeks and read the
19:51
Speaker 2: press coverage, it's like hot vac summer, every return to normalcy, vacations,
19:57
Speaker 2: birthday parties, people are at baseball games and now things
20:00
Speaker 2: feel very different. And maybe some of that can pretty.
20:04
Speaker 1: Pretty lukewarm vac summer right now.
20:06
Speaker 2: That's right. That's right.
20:08
Speaker 1: Lukewarm at best, Dan. Lukewarm at best.
20:11
Speaker 2: Is it even lukewarm? I don't know.
20:14
Speaker 1: Getting colder.
20:15
Speaker 2: It's a fair question about whether people's, particularly vaccinated people's
20:19
Speaker 2: concerns outstrips the reality of what they should be concerned about.
20:22
Speaker 2: But that concern is real.
20:26
Speaker 1: But again, I think the Biden theory of the case
20:30
Speaker 1: since the beginning has been crush the pandemic. That helps
20:35
Speaker 1: revive the economy. That puts people in a good mood.
20:38
Speaker 1: That is our best chance to govern and be successful
20:40
Speaker 1: in this administration and to potentially be reelected again in 2024.
20:44
Speaker 1: I think that is correct, which is why, going back
20:47
Speaker 1: to our original conversation, that just getting more people vaccinated,
20:52
Speaker 1: as many people as possible, through whatever it takes, persuasion, requirements, incentives,
20:57
Speaker 1: carrot sticks, all of it, is the most important thing
21:00
Speaker 1: to do for them, right? Like that is, it's the
21:02
Speaker 1: substantively most important thing to do. It's the right thing
21:05
Speaker 1: to do, but it's also the politically smart thing for
21:07
Speaker 1: them to do because If they can't fix the pandemic
21:09
Speaker 1: and they can't fix the economy, then the whole rest
21:11
Speaker 1: of everything else goes to shit.
21:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right.
21:15
Speaker 1: All right. When we come back, I will talk to
21:18
Speaker 1: Congressman Mondaire Jones about the new eviction moratorium. Last Saturday,
21:33
Speaker 1: the federal eviction moratorium expired, which had protected nearly 11
21:36
Speaker 1: million Americans who'd fallen behind on rent during the pandemic
21:40
Speaker 1: from being thrown out of their homes. The Biden administration
21:43
Speaker 1: said they didn't think they had the legal authority to
21:46
Speaker 1: extend the moratorium on their own. Democratic leaders in Congress
21:49
Speaker 1: said they didn't have the votes to pass an extension
21:51
Speaker 1: because of the filibuster in the Senate. But a few members,
21:54
Speaker 1: led by Congresswoman Cori Bush, refused to take no for
21:57
Speaker 1: an answer, protested and camped outside the Capitol. And on Tuesday...
22:01
Speaker 1: The CDC announced they were extending the moratorium for counties
22:04
Speaker 1: with high COVID infection rates until October 3rd, a move
22:08
Speaker 1: that President Biden said would cover up to 90% of renters.
22:11
Speaker 1: First-term Congressman Mondaire Jones of New York was one of
22:14
Speaker 1: the members protesting outside the Capitol. He joins us now
22:18
Speaker 1: to talk about how we got here and what happens next. Congressman,
22:21
Speaker 1: welcome to the pod.
22:22
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me, man. It's a pleasure. I'm a
22:24
Speaker 4: big fan.
22:25
Speaker 1: Well, thank you. We're happy to have you here. Of
22:29
Speaker 1: all of the disappointing votes and decisions you've seen since
22:33
Speaker 1: you've been in Washington. Why was this one so important
22:36
Speaker 1: for you to protest?
22:39
Speaker 6: It was so important to protest because as many as
22:43
Speaker 6: 11 million people stood to be evicted from their homes.
22:49
Speaker 6: And many of those people, in the words of Congresswoman
22:52
Speaker 6: Cori Bush, would have died. Whether from the Delta variant
22:58
Speaker 6: or or some other version of the COVID-19 virus, or
23:02
Speaker 6: from exposure to the elements or violence. And we're not
23:07
Speaker 6: just talking about parents, we're talking about children, in some instances,
23:10
Speaker 6: infant children. And the entire time, the White House had
23:15
Speaker 6: the authority to issue what ended up being a new moratorium.
23:20
Speaker 6: And of course, Congress should never have recessed without holding
23:24
Speaker 6: a vote on this question. And it's why especially as
23:29
Speaker 6: someone who grew up in Section 8 housing himself and
23:31
Speaker 6: who knows what it's like to be housing insecure, people
23:35
Speaker 6: like Cori Bush and I and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez decide to
23:38
Speaker 6: take matters into our own hands through protests.
23:41
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you did. I think the question is
23:44
Speaker 1: what happens now, right? The new moratorium lasts until October 3rd.
23:49
Speaker 1: The courts could strike it down at any moment. It
23:51
Speaker 1: seemed like the Supreme Court had given a signal through
23:54
Speaker 1: Brett Kavanaugh that they would if the administration did something
23:57
Speaker 1: like this. So what's the plan between now and October
24:00
Speaker 1: 3rd to make sure we don't face this again?
24:02
Speaker 6: The plan is to disperse the approximately $ 46. 5 billion that
24:10
Speaker 6: Congress has already allocated for this very purpose through legislation
24:16
Speaker 6: at the state level. I'm in New York state and
24:19
Speaker 6: much has been said about our governor in recent months.
24:23
Speaker 6: One of the challenges is that he has not dispersed
24:28
Speaker 6: over $ 2 billion that he's been sitting on to people
24:32
Speaker 6: who urgently need rental assistance. So this isn't even a
24:35
Speaker 6: red state issue.
24:36
Speaker 1: Do you have any idea why that is? We have
24:37
Speaker 1: blue state governors sitting on billions of dollars. Is this bureaucracy?
24:42
Speaker 1: I read a couple things about how some landlords were
24:46
Speaker 1: having trouble actually getting tenants to participate in the program
24:48
Speaker 1: because there's paperwork involved. Is there any idea what the
24:51
Speaker 1: source of this problem is here?
24:53
Speaker 6: To be sure, there are ways that we can improve
24:58
Speaker 6: upon the process of getting relief both to tenants and
25:03
Speaker 6: to landlords, right? I mean, one idea is empowering landlords
25:08
Speaker 6: to go to a governmental agency and get those funds
25:13
Speaker 6: directly so that people who are housing insecure and are
25:18
Speaker 6: facing a variety of issues, including maybe insufficient resources to
25:23
Speaker 6: be able to navigate this process, don't have to be
25:27
Speaker 6: the one standing in the way of landlords being made
25:29
Speaker 6: whole and of securing housing for themselves that they are
25:33
Speaker 6: currently in. I'm not going to try to get into
25:37
Speaker 6: the mind of my governor, but I can tell you
25:40
Speaker 6: that there's no excuse for it. And it's why I,
25:44
Speaker 6: along with the rest of the New York congressional delegation,
25:46
Speaker 6: signed a letter recently calling on.
25:50
Speaker 4: The state to administer those funds that have already been
25:52
Speaker 4: allocated by Congress.
25:54
Speaker 6: And now, With respect to red state governors, they don't
25:57
Speaker 6: believe that government should be helping anybody.
25:59
Speaker 4: Right.
26:00
Speaker 1: Is there any plan? I mean, is this going to
26:03
Speaker 1: require legislation? Is there hope that legislation would pass? Can
26:07
Speaker 1: the administration itself do more on its own? What are
26:10
Speaker 1: some of the options?
26:12
Speaker 6: Well, one of the challenges is that even if Congress,
26:17
Speaker 6: specifically the House, had passed legislation creating or imposing a
26:22
Speaker 6: new eviction moratorium on Friday... of last week, it would
26:27
Speaker 6: have died likely in the Senate where all good things
26:30
Speaker 6: go to die, which is why it was incumbent upon
26:35
Speaker 6: the White House to do what it could on at
26:37
Speaker 6: least a temporary basis if the Supreme Court ultimately does
26:41
Speaker 6: strike down the moratorium. But also, I will just note
26:46
Speaker 6: that the filibuster is something that the White House could
26:51
Speaker 6: take a public position on and help us get rid
26:54
Speaker 6: of And so you don't get to say, like, it's
26:56
Speaker 6: on you, Congress, and then, you know, remove yourself from
27:02
Speaker 6: the legislative process when it comes to stuff like this
27:05
Speaker 6: and voting rights, but not a bipartisan infrastructure package.
27:11
Speaker 1: It all comes back to that damn filibuster, doesn't it?
27:14
Speaker 4: Unfortunately.
27:17
Speaker 1: You pointed out that the pause on student loan collection
27:20
Speaker 1: will expire on September 30th. What's your sense on whether
27:23
Speaker 1: the Biden administration will extend that? And how long do
27:26
Speaker 1: you think they should?
27:29
Speaker 6: You're speaking to someone who, along with people like Chuck Schumer,
27:32
Speaker 6: Elizabeth Warren, Ilhan Omar, Ayanna Pressley, Alma Adams and others,
27:38
Speaker 6: has said, Mr. President, you have clear authority under the
27:42
Speaker 6: Higher Education Act to cancel federally owned student debt, which
27:47
Speaker 6: accounts for the vast majority of student debt in this country.
27:51
Speaker 6: And you should use that authority to cancel up to $ 50, 000 in.
27:54
Speaker 4: Student debt for every person who has it.
27:57
Speaker 6: We are in a situation where wages have been stagnant
28:01
Speaker 6: for literally decades, even as the cost of a four-year education,
28:06
Speaker 6: higher education, has skyrocketed.
28:08
Speaker 4: So I want to just say that for context. At
28:12
Speaker 4: a minimum, we should.
28:14
Speaker 6: Be extending the pause on the collection of on student debt,
28:21
Speaker 6: as well as the accrual of interest, which is the
28:23
Speaker 6: other thing that has been paused until such time as
28:27
Speaker 6: the pandemic is over.
28:30
Speaker 4: We know that the pandemic has.
28:31
Speaker 6: Exacerbated problems that pre-existed the coronavirus. And it's why even
28:38
Speaker 6: the Trump administration, in fact, it was the first administration
28:43
Speaker 6: to impose this pause.
28:45
Speaker 4: We've got to do better than the Trump administration.
28:47
Speaker 1: Would you make of Speaker Pelosi saying a couple of
28:50
Speaker 1: days ago that she doesn't believe that Biden has the
28:53
Speaker 1: executive authority to cancel up to $ 50, 000 in debt?
28:57
Speaker 6: Well, many of us, myself included, have been working on
29:00
Speaker 6: this issue for a long time, including studying the issue
29:04
Speaker 6: of his legal authority. And so it was frustrated to
29:08
Speaker 6: hear her opine in that way. And my understanding is
29:11
Speaker 6: that her staff has since brought to her attention that
29:15
Speaker 6: what legal scholars have been saying about this. And I'll
29:20
Speaker 6: just leave that there. But the fact is the White
29:24
Speaker 6: House has already used the same authority most recently to
29:27
Speaker 6: cancel hundreds of millions of dollars in fraudulent debt.
29:34
Speaker 4: The authority that it used.
29:36
Speaker 6: To pause the collection that is going to expire on
29:41
Speaker 6: September 30th is the same authority from which it derives
29:47
Speaker 6: the ability to cancel debt altogether. And I'm calling on
29:53
Speaker 6: the White House to make public the legal opinion that
29:57
Speaker 6: it said it would request within the Department of Education many,
30:00
Speaker 6: many months ago on the subject of whether it has
30:04
Speaker 6: the authority to do so. Because I think the legal
30:07
Speaker 6: opinion will very clearly say that it has the authority.
30:11
Speaker 1: Okay. What will it take for you to support both
30:15
Speaker 1: the bipartisan infrastructure deal and the budget reconciliation bill?
30:21
Speaker 4: I have no problems.
30:22
Speaker 6: With voting for a bipartisan infrastructure package, so long as
30:26
Speaker 6: we have a larger reconciliation bill that meets the moment,
30:31
Speaker 6: that addresses the existential threat of climate change, that expands
30:38
Speaker 6: Medicare to include things like dental, vision, and hearing, and
30:45
Speaker 6: that makes childcare affordable for literally every family in this country.
30:50
Speaker 6: I have a bill with Senator Elizabeth Warren called the
30:52
Speaker 6: Universal Child Care and Early Learning Act, which would make
30:55
Speaker 6: childcare free for families making up to 200% of the
30:59
Speaker 6: federal poverty line, in addition to capping the annual cost
31:03
Speaker 6: of childcare for every family in America at 7% of
31:07
Speaker 6: household income. As Senator Warren said famously during the DNC convention,
31:12
Speaker 6: childcare is infrastructure. And so those are the things I'm
31:17
Speaker 6: looking to see. I'm not going to put a dollar
31:19
Speaker 6: amount on what the reconciliation package should be.
31:23
Speaker 4: I would love for it to be 3.5 trillion. In fact,
31:25
Speaker 4: I'd like for it to be even larger.
31:28
Speaker 6: But I don't want to focus on a number as
31:31
Speaker 6: much as what the provisions of that bill must be
31:34
Speaker 6: in order to secure my support for a bipartisan infrastructure package.
31:38
Speaker 4: And I'm glad that Speaker Pelosi agrees with me on this.
31:41
Speaker 1: So if it comes over to the House at less
31:43
Speaker 1: than 3.5 trillion, as it seems like it may, listening
31:46
Speaker 1: to Sinema and Manchin and others, You could still support it,
31:49
Speaker 1: provided that it spends money on the priorities that you
31:53
Speaker 1: mentioned sufficiently.
31:55
Speaker 6: And even Senator Manchin has not yet, and hopefully he
31:58
Speaker 6: won't ever, take issue with the $ 3.
31:59
Speaker 4: 5 trillion number.
32:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, he hasn't drawn a line in the sand either,
32:04
Speaker 1: which is hopeful. Progressive caucus is a small but growing
32:08
Speaker 1: force in the House. Has what you all achieved this
32:11
Speaker 1: week changed your thinking in any way about how progressives
32:15
Speaker 1: in Congress... can wield their influence to achieve policy victories?
32:21
Speaker 6: I think prior to certain reforms that the progressive caucus
32:24
Speaker 6: undertook last year, and also the reinforcements that people like
32:30
Speaker 6: myself and Cori Bush and Jamal Bowman and Richie Torres
32:34
Speaker 6: and others have provided.
32:36
Speaker 4: That there was not nearly as much of an appetite
32:41
Speaker 4: to flex.
32:44
Speaker 6: And now you've got a bunch of people who didn't
32:48
Speaker 6: come up in the traditional way that politicians do. Cori
32:53
Speaker 6: Bush was a Black Lives Matter activist. I had never
32:57
Speaker 6: held elected office prior to making it to the United
32:59
Speaker 6: States Congress. And in fact, ran against the machine in
33:03
Speaker 6: my primary. We are not waiting to deliver real relief
33:10
Speaker 6: for the American people. And I think, in fact, I
33:13
Speaker 6: know that the policies we support are deeply popular. So
33:17
Speaker 6: I think this was a huge boost. I think it
33:19
Speaker 6: was an example of how you can get these kinds
33:23
Speaker 6: of wins in the space of executive action quite easily.
33:28
Speaker 6: That's what Senator Elizabeth Warren has been masterful at doing,
33:31
Speaker 6: if you look at her approach. And I also think
33:35
Speaker 6: that you're going to see people increasingly clamor for a
33:40
Speaker 6: vehicle to do this stuff legislatively, meaning filibuster reform or abolition.
33:46
Speaker 6: once infrastructure is over, because everything else is going to
33:48
Speaker 6: get blocked and we have to save our democracy.
33:52
Speaker 1: So you, you know, if, if you listen, you know,
33:54
Speaker 1: that I yell about this all the time, filibuster reform, just,
33:58
Speaker 1: just like you've been for the last couple of years. And,
34:01
Speaker 1: you know, I am just, I find myself constantly disappointed
34:04
Speaker 1: because every time I think maybe there's a chance that
34:07
Speaker 1: Joe Manchin might be willing to you know, uh, propose
34:11
Speaker 1: some car, you know, accept some sort of reform or
34:13
Speaker 1: maybe do a carve out or maybe go back to
34:15
Speaker 1: 41 on the floor, all this kind of stuff. You know,
34:18
Speaker 1: some reporter asked him something. He says, no, never. I'm
34:20
Speaker 1: not going to do this. Like you've been a proponent
34:23
Speaker 1: of filibuster reform of expanding the court, all kinds of
34:26
Speaker 1: democratic reforms that seem like they will not happen in
34:29
Speaker 1: this Congress. As long as people like Joe Manchin and
34:32
Speaker 1: Kyrsten Sinema are there. What's your thinking on sort of
34:36
Speaker 1: the ultimate path to these reforms?
34:39
Speaker 6: Well, I don't give up hope that Senators Manchin and
34:43
Speaker 6: Sinema can come around on this issue.
34:47
Speaker 4: But it's not.
34:49
Speaker 6: Going to be in the absence of the President of
34:54
Speaker 6: the United States using his platform and the bully pulpit.
35:00
Speaker 6: And frankly, the resources available to him in negotiation in
35:07
Speaker 6: order to extract money the concession of at least filibuster
35:11
Speaker 6: reform from these two individuals who are standing in the
35:15
Speaker 6: way of democracy. And it really is as stark and
35:19
Speaker 6: as dire as that. I mean, this is the party
35:22
Speaker 6: of insurrection. These people don't want to certify presidential elections.
35:26
Speaker 6: They feel as though their very existence is threatened by
35:29
Speaker 6: a changing America. They will do whatever it takes, and
35:32
Speaker 6: they are aided by the 6-3 far-right majority on the
35:36
Speaker 6: Supreme Court as an accomplice a majority that.
35:39
Speaker 4: Is hostile to democracy itself. We have got to pass
35:43
Speaker 4: the For the People Act in order to stop these people.
35:49
Speaker 1: Last question. I'm wondering if you have any broader takeaway
35:53
Speaker 1: from the primary in Ohio this week between Chantal Brown
35:57
Speaker 1: and Nina Turner. I know the Progressive Caucus in the
36:00
Speaker 1: House supported Nina Turner. Your colleague, Hakeem Jeffries, said to
36:04
Speaker 1: the New York Times yesterday, quote, The majority of Democratic
36:07
Speaker 1: voters recognize that Trumpism and the radical right is the
36:10
Speaker 1: real enemy, not us. Apparently, the extreme left hasn't figured
36:14
Speaker 1: that out. What's your reaction to that?
36:17
Speaker 6: Well, I don't know who the extreme left is, but
36:19
Speaker 6: I can tell you that in the affluent majority white
36:23
Speaker 6: suburbs of New York City, known as Westchester and Lachlan counties,
36:27
Speaker 6: I crushed my opponents in the Democratic primary, including a
36:32
Speaker 6: state senator, a state assembly member, a self-funding billionaire, running
36:38
Speaker 6: as very clearly the most progressive candidate in that race.
36:42
Speaker 6: Jamal Bowman won his race as the most progressive candidate,
36:47
Speaker 6: also in a district that includes a significant portion of
36:49
Speaker 6: Westchester County.
36:51
Speaker 4: I do not believe that the loss of Nina Turner
36:55
Speaker 4: in Ohio's 11th was due to her being progressive.
37:01
Speaker 6: I think there was a lot of money being spent
37:03
Speaker 6: a lot of stuff that was said previously that was
37:09
Speaker 6: characterized in a certain way. But we are seeing progressives
37:13
Speaker 6: win campaigns all across this country. And of course, when
37:17
Speaker 6: we poll progressive policies, we know that communities are very
37:21
Speaker 6: supportive of them, including many Republicans.
37:25
Speaker 4: Yeah.
37:25
Speaker 1: No, it is interesting that You continue to poll progressive policies.
37:29
Speaker 1: You see that they're more popular. You see progressive policy
37:32
Speaker 1: victories like we saw this week. And yet sometimes progressive
37:36
Speaker 1: candidates in sort of tougher primaries don't do as well,
37:40
Speaker 1: minus what you're talking about with yourself and some of
37:44
Speaker 1: your colleagues. Were you sort of surprised that the Congressional
37:46
Speaker 1: Black Caucus came in there and backed Chantel Brown and
37:52
Speaker 1: Congressman Clyburn? What was your sense of that?
37:56
Speaker 6: Well, Congress member majority whip Clyburn has been very open
38:01
Speaker 6: about why he got involved. And he said that it's
38:03
Speaker 6: because of certain negative comments that were made by the
38:08
Speaker 6: campaign that lost.
38:10
Speaker 4: And so I don't want to.
38:14
Speaker 6: Exaggerate or distort the public narrative about why it is
38:18
Speaker 6: that certain members of the congressional black caucus felt the
38:21
Speaker 6: need to get involved in the race. But look, I mean,
38:24
Speaker 6: the Black community is not monolithic and there is a
38:27
Speaker 6: divide within the caucus. I'm a very active member of
38:30
Speaker 6: the caucus and I'm proud to say that my colleagues
38:32
Speaker 6: within the caucus like me, even as we may disagree
38:36
Speaker 6: on certain policies, we are overall quite unified. And it's
38:40
Speaker 6: why you saw people like myself and Ayanna Pressley and
38:44
Speaker 6: others endorse Nina Turner and other members endorse Chantel Browne.
38:50
Speaker 6: And we are still unified as a caucus. So, you know,
38:56
Speaker 6: I view it as a family. And when you're in
38:57
Speaker 6: a family, not everybody agrees. And I'm excited to welcome
39:00
Speaker 6: Chantal Brown to the United States Congress for that matter.
39:02
Speaker 1: Congressman Mondaire Jones, thank you so much for coming on
39:04
Speaker 1: Pod Save America. Come back soon. It was great talking
39:07
Speaker 1: to you.
39:07
Speaker 4: Thanks so much. I'd love to be back.
39:08
Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about the midterms. Usually the party
39:21
Speaker 1: that's expected to lose seats in a midterm will put
39:23
Speaker 1: on a brave face and spin reporters with a lot
39:26
Speaker 1: of happy talk that everyone knows is bullshit. But not
39:29
Speaker 1: our Democrats, Dan. Not our Democrats. Politico reported this week
39:33
Speaker 1: that DCCC Chair Sean Patrick Maloney recently told his most
39:37
Speaker 1: vulnerable incumbents that if the election were held today, they
39:40
Speaker 1: would lose the majority. His prediction was based on new
39:43
Speaker 1: polling that showed Democrats falling behind Republicans by six points
39:47
Speaker 1: on a generic ballot in battleground districts. When asked about
39:50
Speaker 1: the data, the DCCC's executive director told Politico, we are
39:54
Speaker 1: not trying to hide this. The story was specifically focused
39:58
Speaker 1: on concern over the party's message. What is that concern,
40:03
Speaker 1: and do you agree with it?
40:04
Speaker 2: Well, first I want to just say kudos to Sean
40:07
Speaker 2: Patrick Maloney and the DCCC. This is the right thing
40:10
Speaker 2: to do, right?
40:11
Speaker 1: It is, yeah.
40:12
Speaker 2: I mean, I was thinking about this.
40:13
Speaker 1: Happy talk doesn't get you anywhere. Just telling everyone like,
40:16
Speaker 1: we're fine. We're going to win. It's great. Blah, blah, blah.
40:19
Speaker 2: Everyone in the party, donors, activists, members need to be
40:25
Speaker 2: crystal clear about how steep a hill we have before us.
40:29
Speaker 2: And I was thinking back to– do you remember in
40:31
Speaker 2: 2010 when our friend and then White House Press Secretary
40:33
Speaker 2: Robert Gibbs went on Meet the Press? And I think
40:35
Speaker 2: David Gregory was host at the time. And he asked
40:37
Speaker 2: him whether– he asked Gibbs whether there was a chance
40:40
Speaker 2: Democrats could lose the House. And Gibbs said yes, which
40:43
Speaker 2: was a patently obvious thing. It wasn't likely at the
40:45
Speaker 2: time in which he said it, but warning signs were everywhere.
40:48
Speaker 2: I mean unemployment was 10%. Like it was pretty possible
40:49
Speaker 2: that this could happen. It wasn't great.
40:51
Speaker 1: It wasn't great.
40:53
Speaker 2: And the House Democrats went bananas on him. I think
40:55
Speaker 2: that Steny Hoyer held a press conference just to attack
40:58
Speaker 2: Robert Gibbs for it.
40:59
Speaker 1: I don't remember that.
41:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was brutal. They were so mad at him.
41:03
Speaker 2: And he was right.
41:04
Speaker 1: Sure, Gibbs loved that.
41:06
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
41:06
Speaker 2: It was very contentious, if you will. There were a
41:11
Speaker 2: lot of meetings between Robert and the legislative affairs team
41:13
Speaker 2: around that time. But– This is the right thing to do.
41:18
Speaker 2: People need to be aware of the challenge before us.
41:21
Speaker 2: And that's important. Now, the specific messaging question. In this story,
41:26
Speaker 2: Debbie Dingell, who is a congresswoman from Michigan, and I
41:29
Speaker 2: think one of the savviest members politically. She was a
41:33
Speaker 2: Democratic operative for a long time, the widow of Congressman
41:36
Speaker 2: John Dingell. She serves in his seat. She said, our
41:38
Speaker 2: message is not breaking through. And that's exactly right. That
41:42
Speaker 2: is what's happening. We've talked about this before. I think
41:44
Speaker 2: this is a megaphone problem, not a message problem. It's
41:46
Speaker 2: not that we're saying the wrong things. It's that people
41:49
Speaker 2: are not hearing them because we do not have the
41:51
Speaker 2: apparatus to get to them. There is some good news
41:54
Speaker 2: on this, which is there was a report last week,
41:57
Speaker 2: I think, that Democratic groups were going to spend $ 100
42:00
Speaker 2: million during the month of August on messaging around the
42:06
Speaker 2: bipartisan infrastructure deal and the jobs and family plan to
42:10
Speaker 2: communicate to voters about it. And so there is like
42:13
Speaker 2: there is some cavalry coming. But yeah, people have every
42:17
Speaker 2: right to be concerned. It seems somewhat patently obvious that
42:20
Speaker 2: if the election were held today, we would lose the
42:23
Speaker 2: House because for first, think about it this way. If
42:26
Speaker 2: Joe Biden's at 50.6%, which is a very respectable and
42:28
Speaker 2: good approval rating for a president– And that's in a
42:32
Speaker 2: national poll that includes California, New York, et cetera. What
42:36
Speaker 2: do we think his approval rating is in districts that
42:39
Speaker 2: either Trump won or Biden did less well than his
42:42
Speaker 2: national numbers? And we know that generic Democrats underperformed Biden
42:47
Speaker 2: in these districts. And so this is somewhat obvious, but
42:50
Speaker 2: it's important to say it because everyone needs to be
42:52
Speaker 2: aware of the work ahead of us.
42:55
Speaker 1: I do agree that. We're not breaking through with our message.
42:58
Speaker 1: I sort of always agree with that. It's very hard
43:00
Speaker 1: to break through the message. We've talked about that a
43:02
Speaker 1: million times. I sort of wonder if it's more of
43:05
Speaker 1: an economy problem, a general mood problem than it is
43:09
Speaker 1: a message problem. And I wonder that because of a
43:11
Speaker 1: couple of things from this polling. You know, they said
43:13
Speaker 1: that both the American Rescue Plan and the American Jobs
43:16
Speaker 1: Plan in this polling are incredibly popular, incredibly popular with
43:21
Speaker 1: swing voters in battleground districts.
43:22
Speaker 6: Right.
43:23
Speaker 1: Not just like base Democrats. People love these plans. And
43:25
Speaker 1: yet only 42 percent of the people in this in
43:28
Speaker 1: these polls, battleground voters, trust Democrats on the economy. And
43:33
Speaker 1: so and they also and, you know, Debbie Dingell said
43:36
Speaker 1: that when she goes home to Michigan in her in
43:38
Speaker 1: her district, people said the Democrats aren't doing enough to
43:41
Speaker 1: boost the economy. So clearly, it seems like there is
43:44
Speaker 1: some financial concerns around the country, economic concerns around the
43:48
Speaker 1: country and people. don't feel the economy is where it
43:52
Speaker 1: should be and they don't see Democrats doing enough to
43:55
Speaker 1: fix it. Now, partly that can be solved by, you know,
43:58
Speaker 1: better messaging and spending a lot of money delivering that
44:01
Speaker 1: message to voters and saying, oh, look, we are doing
44:03
Speaker 1: a lot to help you. Here's what we're here's what
44:05
Speaker 1: we've already passed and here's what we're fighting for now.
44:06
Speaker 1: I think that's that's a necessity. But I wonder if
44:11
Speaker 1: it doesn't truly get fixed until the economy gets fixed
44:14
Speaker 1: and things are going well and people say, oh, yeah,
44:15
Speaker 1: now I feel like I'm doing better in my own
44:17
Speaker 1: life and I'm looking around the economy and things are good.
44:20
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean Joe Biden mailed a $ 1, 000
44:25
Speaker 2: check to tens of millions of people and it didn't
44:28
Speaker 2: affect his approval rating. That does speak to the limits
44:32
Speaker 2: of what can– like what else are they going to
44:35
Speaker 2: do that's more popular? Like the stuff in the– or
44:38
Speaker 2: more impactful to people's lives.
44:40
Speaker 1: No, I guess what I'm saying is like until inflation comes,
44:43
Speaker 1: you know, until until people say, OK, inflation really isn't
44:45
Speaker 1: a long term problem. It was temporary. It's coming down.
44:48
Speaker 1: And now I'm in a better mood. Like, I think that,
44:50
Speaker 1: you know, one thing you keep seeing in these polls
44:51
Speaker 1: and in some focus groups, too, is people just keep
44:53
Speaker 1: mentioning the inflation issue. And they're saying, yeah, maybe he
44:56
Speaker 1: gave me a thousand dollar check, but now prices are rising.
44:58
Speaker 1: So what the fuck?
45:01
Speaker 2: Which is something Joe Biden has very little control over,
45:03
Speaker 2: almost none.
45:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's the challenge.
45:06
Speaker 2: Always the truth, the economy. The president gets all the
45:08
Speaker 2: blame and all the credit and has only limited influence
45:11
Speaker 2: on what actually happens. I mean, I remember us watching
45:17
Speaker 2: bank default rates in Greece being a really relevant re-election factor.
45:21
Speaker 1: For Barack Obama.
45:22
Speaker 2: I remember that.
45:23
Speaker 6: Wow, yeah.
45:24
Speaker 2: So you have a couple of choices here. And I
45:26
Speaker 2: think we cannot leave this topic of keeping the house
45:29
Speaker 2: without pointing out that all of the messaging, billions of
45:35
Speaker 2: dollars in ads. Would be less impactful than passing a
45:40
Speaker 2: one-page bill in the Senate that banned partisan gerrymandering. That's
45:44
Speaker 2: the biggest problem. And that is not DGCC's fault. It's
45:46
Speaker 2: not Sean Patrick Mulling's fault. That's Joe Manchin and Kyrsten
45:49
Speaker 2: Sinema's fault because everyone else is for that. They passed that.
45:51
Speaker 2: But that is– we– that would– I had a choice
45:55
Speaker 2: between $ 100 billion in Democratic ads between now and November
45:59
Speaker 2: or– passing the one-page ban on partisan gerrymandering about what
46:04
Speaker 2: would help us the most in keeping the House, it
46:06
Speaker 2: would definitely be the gerrymandering ban.
46:09
Speaker 1: I completely agree with that, though I was sort of
46:12
Speaker 1: thinking about it from the other perspective, which is in
46:14
Speaker 1: a world, I don't want people to think that the
46:17
Speaker 1: reason that the House is in jeopardy is only because
46:21
Speaker 1: of Republican gerrymandering, even though that's the biggest reason. That
46:24
Speaker 1: if there were no gerrymandering, we would still see polls
46:27
Speaker 1: like this where the Democratic challenger or the Democrat is
46:31
Speaker 1: six points behind a Republican in a battleground district. We
46:34
Speaker 1: have other problems to fix. So I don't want people
46:36
Speaker 1: just thinking like, our message is perfect and if only
46:40
Speaker 1: we just passed independent redistricting commissions, everything would be great.
46:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, we should undo independent redistricting commissions and eliminate 10
46:47
Speaker 2: Republican states in California as one possible fucking idea, which
46:51
Speaker 2: I think you can't actually do because it's passed a
46:52
Speaker 2: ballot initiative, but you get my point. But the other thing,
46:56
Speaker 2: just not to be overly dark about this, but this
46:58
Speaker 2: is a poll of un-gerrymandered districts. We don't even know
47:01
Speaker 2: how gerrymandered the districts are.
47:02
Speaker 1: Right, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.
47:04
Speaker 2: This is best case scenario, people.
47:05
Speaker 1: We got a lot of problems. We got a lot
47:07
Speaker 1: of problems.
47:09
Speaker 2: But I think the other messaging question here is, and
47:12
Speaker 2: I think this will lead us into our next topic,
47:14
Speaker 2: is should we spend money and time and energy advertising
47:20
Speaker 2: what Democrats have done to make your life better? Or
47:24
Speaker 2: should we spend time and energy advertising what Republicans would
47:27
Speaker 2: do to make it worse?
47:29
Speaker 1: Great segue. Great segue. So in an effort to be constructive,
47:35
Speaker 1: instead of just us worrying out loud, we conducted a
47:38
Speaker 1: poll with our friends at Data for Progress where we
47:40
Speaker 1: asked people how they felt about a bunch of shit
47:43
Speaker 1: Republicans have done over the last few years. Here was
47:45
Speaker 1: the list. Striking down sections of the Voting Rights Act
47:48
Speaker 1: and making it harder to vote. Packing the judiciary with
47:51
Speaker 1: right-wing judges. cutting taxes for the rich, blocking action on
47:55
Speaker 1: climate change, trying to build a border wall, supporting Trump,
47:59
Speaker 1: repeating the big lie, voting to overturn the 2020 election,
48:02
Speaker 1: and encouraging violent protests at the U.S. Capitol on January 6th.
48:06
Speaker 1: Here are the top five things that people disapprove of
48:11
Speaker 1: the most from that poll. Number one, inciting insurrection, 70%. Comforting. Comforting,
48:18
Speaker 1: that's number one. Number two, tax cuts for the rich,
48:21
Speaker 1: 58% disapproval. Number three, attacking voting rights, 57% disapproval. Number four,
48:28
Speaker 1: climate denialism, 55% approval. And number five, spreading the big lie,
48:34
Speaker 1: 54% disapproval. What do you think about those results? And
48:40
Speaker 1: is there a message somewhere in there? Because that was
48:42
Speaker 1: a lot of different things.
48:43
Speaker 2: What I think this poll proves is that There is
48:47
Speaker 2: a huge opportunity to brand the Republicans in a negative
48:51
Speaker 2: light for voters. Generic Republican is not the anvil around
48:55
Speaker 2: the neck of the Republicans on the ballot that it
48:58
Speaker 2: can be and should be. And I don't think this
49:02
Speaker 2: poll yet answers the question of exactly what that should be,
49:04
Speaker 2: but it is very clear to me from looking at this,
49:07
Speaker 2: and I recognize that I am doing the thing where
49:09
Speaker 2: I look at a poll and use it to confirm
49:11
Speaker 2: all of my prior opinions, but that it uh, it
49:14
Speaker 2: shows that, yeah, it's so strange that there is, people
49:19
Speaker 2: do not like Republicans. People would like Republicans even less
49:23
Speaker 2: the more they knew about them and they don't know
49:25
Speaker 2: enough about Republicans. And so you, I think there is like,
49:29
Speaker 2: definitely there are lots of opportunities here. I think what
49:32
Speaker 2: this poll shows that there is, there could be real
49:34
Speaker 2: benefit in a message that paints Republicans dramatically out of
49:38
Speaker 2: the mainstream. That's what a lot of this is, right?
49:40
Speaker 2: It's a radical Republican is essentially the framework we would
49:44
Speaker 2: use of big lie, don't believe in the science around
49:48
Speaker 2: climate change, hang out with people like Marjorie Taylor Greene
49:51
Speaker 2: and Matt Gaetz. That is one narrative about the party
49:55
Speaker 2: that would, I think, have some impact with voters, particularly
49:59
Speaker 2: voters who maybe voted for Biden at the top of
50:02
Speaker 2: the ticket and a Republican- on the congressional or Senate level,
50:05
Speaker 2: that they could be persuaded that this party is a
50:08
Speaker 2: lot more Trump-like than they thought.
50:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, I should have said there were two things on
50:12
Speaker 1: that list that I left out, which was we also
50:14
Speaker 1: tested Matt Gaetz's scandal and Marjorie Taylor Greene's comparisons of
50:18
Speaker 1: the House mask mandate to the Holocaust. And of course,
50:21
Speaker 1: the disapproval for both of those was off the charts.
50:24
Speaker 1: But I didn't sort of include it because I seriously
50:27
Speaker 1: doubt that A Democrat running against a Republican in some
50:31
Speaker 1: far-flung district is going to somehow successfully tie that specific
50:35
Speaker 1: Republican to what Matt Gaetz or Marjorie Taylor Greene did.
50:39
Speaker 1: You can, of course, call them out for not calling
50:42
Speaker 1: out Matt Gaetz or condemning Matt Gaetz and Marjorie Taylor Greene, right?
50:46
Speaker 1: You can say, you're part of this party. You didn't say,
50:48
Speaker 1: I think that's fine. You can do that. But I
50:50
Speaker 1: doubt that's sort of a larger strategy available to the
50:53
Speaker 1: party to just pick out two scandals and make a
50:56
Speaker 1: bigger thing about it.
50:58
Speaker 2: Can I just push on that for a sec?
50:59
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah.
51:02
Speaker 2: Do you think the Republican strategy of putting AOC, Ilhan Omar,
51:08
Speaker 2: which is obviously an incredibly misogynistic and racist approach, or
51:12
Speaker 2: in using Nancy Pelosi for decades as the face of
51:15
Speaker 2: the Democratic Party, do you think that worked for them?
51:19
Speaker 2: And if it did work for them, why wouldn't it
51:20
Speaker 2: work for us?
51:22
Speaker 1: I don't think there's a ton of evidence that that
51:24
Speaker 1: worked for them. Um, I think that they were able,
51:28
Speaker 1: I think so in 2018, they did this a lot
51:32
Speaker 1: and it certainly didn't work for them in 2018. Obviously
51:34
Speaker 1: in 2020, they did much better in the house than
51:36
Speaker 1: we thought they would. I think there may have been
51:38
Speaker 1: success at, there may have been some, some success framing
51:43
Speaker 1: the democratic party as more liberal or potentially more radical
51:47
Speaker 1: as a party than its standard bearer, Joe Biden. I
51:51
Speaker 1: don't know that specific attacks on AOC or Ilhan Omar
51:54
Speaker 1: are sort of translated to some of these districts. I
51:57
Speaker 1: think some of the policy positions could have, uh, they,
52:01
Speaker 1: you know, some of the policy positions that some Democrats
52:03
Speaker 1: or some activists staked out could have worked for Republicans.
52:06
Speaker 1: But I think the people themselves, uh, are, it's a
52:09
Speaker 1: little bit, I just think like, you know, a voter
52:11
Speaker 1: you're it's, it's, uh, it's Joe Smith versus Sally. And
52:15
Speaker 1: you're like, uh, and Joe Smith has nothing to do
52:17
Speaker 1: with Marjorie Taylor green and Matt Gates. And you spend
52:19
Speaker 1: a whole campaign saying, Oh, but, but, But they're going
52:22
Speaker 1: to be in the same party as this person who
52:24
Speaker 1: did X. I don't know that it works as well
52:26
Speaker 1: on either side, Democrat or Republican.
52:29
Speaker 2: I think I agree with that. I certainly think the
52:32
Speaker 2: individual people are– it's a little of what you think
52:37
Speaker 2: was the more important part. Was it radical socialists defund
52:41
Speaker 2: the police or in the Pelosi case over the years,
52:44
Speaker 2: Hollywood liberal? And Republicans, we should be very clear, it
52:49
Speaker 2: works more with their voters because they're weaponizing race and gender.
52:52
Speaker 2: And that is an effective tactic for them with a
52:54
Speaker 2: lot of their voters. We saw that with Hillary Clinton.
52:56
Speaker 2: We've seen it with Barack Obama.
52:58
Speaker 1: That is correct. I agree with that.
52:59
Speaker 2: But there are like, I think there's a nuance to
53:03
Speaker 2: maybe like having some avatars for that radicalism. It's not
53:08
Speaker 2: like saying like, it's not saying QOP or party of Q.
53:12
Speaker 2: Like I think that that sells the voter short. It
53:14
Speaker 2: sort of treats them as idiots, which is never a
53:16
Speaker 2: good political strategy in our opinion. But there is some
53:20
Speaker 2: sense of, Like having some people who get a lot
53:24
Speaker 2: of press attention who are kind of scary to the
53:26
Speaker 2: voters we want is not the worst thing in the world.
53:28
Speaker 1: I think that's right. But I think where we probably
53:32
Speaker 1: agree is branding Republicans in general as extremists, and there's
53:37
Speaker 1: a lot of supporting evidence for that, is going to
53:40
Speaker 1: be effective. And I think that does span the gamut
53:43
Speaker 1: from everything that happened around the 2020 election, the insurrection,
53:49
Speaker 1: overturning the results, the big lie. to climate change, denialism,
53:54
Speaker 1: you know, continuing to support tax cuts for the richest
53:57
Speaker 1: American as the middle class is falling behind.
53:59
Speaker 3: Right.
53:59
Speaker 1: Like, I think that's what we're seeing in this poll
54:02
Speaker 1: is that when Republicans have staked out more extremist positions,
54:06
Speaker 1: people are more likely to disapprove of them, which is
54:08
Speaker 1: not like fucking lightning bolts, like not the biggest revelation,
54:13
Speaker 1: but it's worth remembering. And I also think it's worth noting, too, that,
54:16
Speaker 1: you know, it was not in that top five is
54:19
Speaker 1: supporting Donald Trump. which I thought was kind of interesting.
54:23
Speaker 1: And yet the big lie, supporting the insurrection, attacking voting rights,
54:28
Speaker 1: those were all in the top five. So I do
54:30
Speaker 1: think it might be a tempting shorthand to say, and
54:34
Speaker 1: we do this all the time, these are Trump Republicans.
54:36
Speaker 1: They're just like Trump. It's a clone of Trump. I
54:38
Speaker 1: think you have to go a little bit further and
54:40
Speaker 1: say why they're like Trump, what positions they hold that
54:43
Speaker 1: are like Trump, what they have said and done that
54:44
Speaker 1: is like Trump. And not just say– not just expect
54:47
Speaker 1: people to believe that every Republican is like Trump and
54:49
Speaker 1: supporting Trump is automatically disqualifying, unfortunately.
54:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, Trump is such a unique figure in terms of
54:56
Speaker 2: like personality and presence and just like overt stupidity that
55:01
Speaker 2: it is sometimes hard to– like it really is hard.
55:04
Speaker 2: Like you have some relatively generic college Republican– Fox News
55:11
Speaker 2: green room lunatic running for Congress somewhere. And it's sort
55:14
Speaker 2: of– they don't seem like Donald Trump. He is just
55:15
Speaker 2: this figure with this long history and presence. But Trumpism, right?
55:21
Speaker 2: And you don't have to call it Trumpism. But the
55:23
Speaker 2: ideas that lie at the heart of it that predate
55:27
Speaker 2: Trump I think can be really– I still think that
55:30
Speaker 2: we didn't really test this in this poll. There are
55:32
Speaker 2: some choices between crazy and corporatist that I don't know
55:36
Speaker 2: what the right answer to that is. I think in
55:38
Speaker 2: the long run, the– number one goal of the Democratic
55:42
Speaker 2: Party should be separating Republicans from their working class base.
55:45
Speaker 2: Because especially if we have reason to believe that working
55:48
Speaker 2: class base is becoming more diverse, if they're making gains
55:51
Speaker 2: with working class Black and Latino voters, that's the end
55:56
Speaker 2: of the game for us. So we got to stop
55:58
Speaker 2: that trend.
55:59
Speaker 1: In this poll, we've looked at these disapproval ratings as
56:02
Speaker 1: sort of in the aggregate. And I wonder if... there
56:08
Speaker 1: are some things that Republicans have done, like continue to
56:12
Speaker 1: push for tax cuts for the rich, that working class voters, white, black,
56:17
Speaker 1: and brown, disapprove of more than perhaps upper income voters.
56:23
Speaker 1: And then I do think there are voters in the suburbs,
56:27
Speaker 1: college educated voters, who may have been, you know, George
56:30
Speaker 1: Bush Republicans, Mitt Romney Republicans, and now they voted for
56:33
Speaker 1: Joe Biden for the first time, and they might care
56:35
Speaker 1: more about Republicans inciting insurrection, spreading the big lie, trying
56:41
Speaker 1: to overturn the election. So it could be different messages
56:44
Speaker 1: work for different demographic groups that we need in the
56:46
Speaker 1: Democratic coalition.
56:47
Speaker 2: I do think we have to pick one of the two.
56:50
Speaker 2: And I think one of the lessons of politics in
56:54
Speaker 2: this sort of interconnected social media age, particularly given our
56:58
Speaker 2: media infrastructure deficit as Democrats, is we need one narrative
57:03
Speaker 2: about Republicans. And I think And that can be– like
57:07
Speaker 2: you can look at the map and say we're better
57:08
Speaker 2: off getting– because I do think these messages attract different
57:13
Speaker 2: people or dissuade different people. And you can sort of–
57:16
Speaker 2: I don't know the answer to which is the right
57:18
Speaker 2: one to keep the House or to re-elect Joe Biden
57:20
Speaker 2: in 2024 or whatever that is. But like you want
57:23
Speaker 2: everyone saying the same thing about Republicans.
57:27
Speaker 4: Yeah.
57:28
Speaker 2: Because that gives additional throw rate behind the message because
57:30
Speaker 2: every Republican runs on the same message against Democrats. And
57:32
Speaker 2: that has worked to define– the Democratic brand in the
57:35
Speaker 2: House of Representatives. And we tend to run, particularly in
57:38
Speaker 2: red districts, away from the party or run more specific
57:41
Speaker 2: campaigns about specific Republicans. It's like we need one narrative
57:45
Speaker 2: for them and then everyone should say it all the time.
57:47
Speaker 2: And this is one of the situations where the only
57:50
Speaker 2: wrong choice, in my opinion, is no choice.
57:52
Speaker 1: Send us your narratives. Obviously, the best narratives are crowdsourced
57:57
Speaker 1: on social media.
57:59
Speaker 2: Yes. You know what? Actually, go through your Twitter timeline,
58:02
Speaker 2: find your tweets that got the most engagement. Send those
58:05
Speaker 2: to us.
58:05
Speaker 1: That's what we're looking for. Thank you to Congressman Mondaire
58:08
Speaker 1: Jones for joining us today. And everyone have a great weekend.
58:12
Speaker 1: And we'll talk to you next week.
58:14
Speaker 2: Bye, everyone.
58:31
Speaker 1: It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is
58:34
Speaker 1: our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Sominator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou,
58:39
Speaker 1: Caroline Rustin, and Justine Howe for production support. And to
58:42
Speaker 1: our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim, Yale Freed,
58:46
Speaker 1: and Nar Melkonian, who film and share our episodes as
58:48
Speaker 1: videos every week.