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Moms React To Harrison Butker Speech · The Family Teams Podcast

• 0:00
  And the other thing that happened was that Harrison Butker's jerseys sold out everywhere. It's like, you can't get one. There's so many people that are like, oh my gosh, thank you for just saying these basic things out loud.
• 0:17
  Hi, welcome to the Family Teams podcast. Our goal here is to help your family become a multi-generational team on mission by providing you with biblically rooted concepts, tools, and rhythms. Your hosts are Jeremy Pryor and Jefferson Bethke, and we can't wait to chat about all things family.
• 0:37
  Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Family Teams podcast. This is a momentous day because we have been just pummeling any of our listeners with fatherhood content for especially the last six months. And so I have been very much trying to figure out how do we do...
• 0:55
  a lot more content around motherhood. And so today we are going to be bringing you a motherhood only podcast. The first of many is the plan. So I'm really excited about this. I am joined today by my lovely wife, April, and then, uh,
• 1:10
  Um, Justine Cirillo, who is married to Chris Cirillo. Some of you guys have seen Chris on the fatherhood podcast. Um, he is the purveyor of, uh, mission fit dads. So any dads out there looking for, um, getting, uh, getting some personal training, uh, for getting, getting fit. Uh, Chris is definitely the guy to reach out to there. Um, and then, uh, Michelle Akrami and her husband, Cameron's been on the podcast as well a lot lately. So, um, Cameron, he's a purveyor of an interesting YouTube channel on gardening. What's it called, Michelle? Michelle?
• 1:40
  Busy gardeners. Yes, the busy gardener. And so one of the features, if you jump onto their YouTube channel, is you'll see Cameron's mad fathering skills as he leads their family in various gardening things as well. Just lots of great tips there. So we're going to be talking today about motherhood. So Michelle, Justine, April, and I, I'm here to host. I'm not a mother. I know nothing about motherhood other than just...
• 2:06
  theoretical. So I'm going to be trying to tee up the conversations that we're going to have today. And we've got a couple of things that I'm excited to talk to you guys about. So the first one is there is a brewing controversy that has erupted on the Internet and it is absolutely fascinating. It's really important to cover this from a family team's perspective. One of the reasons why I love doing these kind of reaction slash commentary videos that we're going to be doing today is
• 2:29
  is that at Family Teams, we have a really unique way of thinking about the topic of family. We're not really hitting this from just a pure traditional perspective, which oftentimes is attempting to figure out how to recapture the golden heir of the nuclear family from the 1950s. That's not our goal. You'll see that from a lot of things we're going to talk about today. We really think that we need to go way further back to find families.
• 2:53
  the actual biblical blueprint of family, which is in scripture and is something that most people have never even seen before. It's really been eclipsed in the West and hasn't really been in our culture in force for well over 100 years. And that is the family as a team, a multi-generational team. That's a totally different idea. And so we would like to interact with a lot of the content that's going on that is being discussed today.
• 3:18
  from not from that sort of traditional Christian sort of 1950s nuclear family perspective, but from our perspective, from the family team, which is, we think is really the scriptural way of being family. So we talk a lot about this and you guys who are familiar with our content are aware of that. But we wanna be talking about what this looks like
• 3:40
  As fathers and mothers, and in that kind of multi-generational family team, roles are really important. And so we don't hide from the idea of there being roles in the family. I think it's very confusing for modern people to think about the roles, that it seems like an assault on individual freedom. That's kind of the way it's framed by our culture. That's not at all our perspective. We're trying to build a certain kind of family according to the original design that we used.
• 4:04
  was given to the family in Genesis 1, when God told the first family to be fruitful, multiply, fill, subdue, and rule. And so we want to talk about things from that perspective. And so I was really fascinated by what happened this week with the eruption of this particular controversy. Those of you guys who were watching this, I don't know
• 4:23
  how much further into the future we're going to be able to post this. Hopefully we'll post this really soon. So you guys can, can, can interact with us on what's going on right now. But basically the, the kicker of the Kansas city chiefs, Harrison Butker, he went to a Catholic university and a private Catholic university and gave a commencement address as a Catholic man,
• 4:49
  to basically a complete Catholic audience. And he articulated Catholic beliefs that the Catholics have believed for hundreds of years. And just saying these things out loud in a recorded venue is enough to get just an incredible eruption of controversy going. So I'll play one example of the hysterical reaction that people are having to
• 5:13
  to just basic things that Butker is saying. And so I'll go ahead and play this for you guys. And then there's some colorful language here. And so be forewarned. But this is really important for us to be aware of kind of the way that a lot of people are reacting to this. The kicker for the Kansas City Chiefs, who has got to be the most sexist, white supremacist,
• 5:42
  I have ever seen in my life. Watch this. I think it is you, the women, who have had the most diabolical lies told to you. Some of you may go on to lead successful careers in the world, but I would venture to guess that the majority of you are most excited about your marriage and the children you will bring into this world.
• 5:59
  hate him. It's unbelievable that at a time, this last football cycle where all of these women are attracted to the NFL because of Taylor Swift. And here's this incredibly successful woman, Taylor Swift, that has this amazing work ethic. And then I forget that this type of person is
• 6:21
  exists everywhere. And this is evangelical Christianity. What he said is so disrespectful to such a large portion of women, and it's so dismissive. I hope that he is canceled to hell and back. And I feel so sorry that his wife has to sleep with him. Okay.
• 6:45
  Yeah, this is the reaction. So one of the things that, and I'll just finish kind of framing this, there was a tweet that this morning really struck me. Let's see if I can pull it up here. By Joel Berry from the Babylon Bee. And he said this, the thermonuclear reaction.
• 7:07
  to Butker's speech, tells me this is where the battle is. The principalities and powers of this age don't want loving, godly, fruitful marriages, and such marriages are the greatest threat to the forces of darkness. They just told us how to win. I thought that was really helpful framing that, yeah, the fact that this is so controversial, that this is the thing that they have to tear down and say you can't say, even in polite company or even in private settings,
• 7:34
  that these things cannot be spoken out loud to praise his own wife or choosing to be a wife and mother and say that that that is a normative thing to support if you're a Catholic. So that that was that's something that has to be immediately attacked. And so, yeah, so I'd love to hear any reactions that you guys had. April, I'll start with you and then we'll just kind of go around the horn, Michelle and Justine. But yeah, April, how did you react to that when you when you heard that clip?
• 8:04
  Oh, I was amazed at how how threatened they felt that just what you're saying, a Catholic man speaking to a Catholic audience who was invited there, perhaps because of his beliefs.
• 8:21
  And saying what he believed and encouraging what he thinks would be appropriate to encourage in that setting. And for it to kind of get pulled out. I'm not really sure where the white racist, the white supremacist comment came from because it had no context. No. It was just like, wow. I think the tweet that you mentioned just really affirms that this seems like something that is such a threat to people that don't need to be threatened by it.
• 8:51
  Um, but clearly they are. And then just the, the crass, um, way these women are interacting. Um, it's just so masculine, so unfeminine. And, um, and I think to praise another thing that struck me was like praising Taylor Swift's work ethic. Yeah. Um, I feel like that's the redefinition of what a good work ethic is, um, um, um,
• 9:18
  Where it used to be a good work ethic used to be like working a full week's work, showing up on time, leaving, like doing an excellent job, doing your job with excellence and being reliable and dependable.
• 9:35
  And it sounds like what she's saying is like Taylor Swift's work ethic is, you know, she hasn't let children or marriage encumber her career. She's in her 30s now. And look at her go. She's still going. And she hasn't gotten entrapped by marriage or isn't being held back by a child. Like that's an amazing work ethic. So those are some things that struck me.
• 9:58
  Yeah, that's kind of crazy how you're only allowed to praise women or their work ethic as long as it's outside the home. You absolutely cannot praise. I mean, if you have four or five more kids and you're working hard in the home, we have nothing but disdain, it seems like, for that kind of a lifestyle. But if you're a woman who is staying single, sleeping and having multiple boyfriends, we want to make sure we promote that because that is how women become empowered, that kind of lifestyle. Wow. Wow.
• 10:28
  I mean, just, it's so strange, the level of blindness. And, and she, her also pointing out, she, it wasn't just that. I think, I think that the line that really caught me was, I, I, I forget that these kind of people still exist.
• 10:45
  I mean, it seems like if she could like wave a magic wand and commit genocide against people that have this perspective, that that would be an appropriate response to hearing a man praise his wife for her work ethic in the home. Yeah, Michelle, what did this start for you?
• 11:03
  I think it just reminds me of when we're confronted with truth. You know, we've got five kiddos of our own spanning from 14 out of seven or eight now. And, you know, if I'm speaking truth to them, I've had times where they, you know, they're just they do this for a second.
• 11:19
  Have a tantrum. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like that, that is choosing to be a fool. You're not listening to instruction or in truth anyway, but it just reminds me of that, you know, where if she's wanting to forget that all these people live exist, it's, it just reminds me of that. And I think it reveals that he was speaking the truth and that she's choosing to believe lies, you know, and yeah,
• 11:46
  I just, yeah, I think it definitely quickly showed the polarization of our culture very quickly. You know, with, I was, you know, reading, I tried to read, I tried to read the entire speech just for some context. And it was amazing.
• 12:05
  amazing like incredible speech yes and what he said about men was amazing like and i find it interesting that she didn't talk about that part you know it was about what affected her um but i know from even just in my experience as a christian wife and mother like i think
• 12:28
  when we submit to God's design, there is always life involved. But at the beginning, there might be something or there is a dying to self that everybody in the world, we want to reject that. No, I want to do what I want to do. And so I think it's really showing that aspect of our nature that we just want to push back on anything that tells me how to
• 12:57
  live. Yeah. Well, I think, I think your point that it's, it's a reaction to truth and there's, you'll, you'll get no stronger reaction than when somebody is proclaiming a truth that you wish wasn't true because you don't really have a defense against the truth. The truth is just, it does, it defends itself. It just, it works. And this is what, this is what Harrison is
• 13:22
  You're seeing a man with a thriving family, a thriving wife, explaining to young people who are about to go into the world how to thrive. And they hate that this is true. That's why they're so upset. It's like if they had a strong argument against this, if they could say something, they have to mock it, they have to demean it.
• 13:42
  Because it just, it works beautifully and it, and it helps men and women thrive and children and societies. And so you, you have to fight all of the gravity of the way that this truth is, is creating all of this life. Like you said, the truth creates life. And, and so that, that, that is, I think why you have to have such a visceral reaction against this. So, yeah, Justin, how about you? What did, what did this start for you?
• 14:09
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• 14:41
  It's not interesting. So when I first watched the clip, I didn't realize that it was at a Catholic private school, which I feel like the context makes all the difference of like who he is talking to. So then I found it surprising that these women were having the kind of reaction that they were.
• 15:02
  given the audience that he was speaking to. And then that they were saying that he's being disrespectful and dismissive while they are being disrespectful and dismissive was just very weird to me.
• 15:17
  And yeah, like Michelle said, just taking away from the beauty and the value that is a mother and the work that goes within a home and that your only value is if you're outside of a home. And two, I don't understand, like, this speech is not affecting these women at all. Right.
• 15:42
  Like, so them having the reaction just seems a little unnecessary to me or like just over exaggerated. Yeah. Yeah.
• 15:53
  Yeah, it's kind of crazy. There was like two interesting reactions on terms of like immediately after the NFL actually issued a public statement denouncing basically his position and saying we support it. We're an inclusive organization. So they felt the need to distance themselves from his speech at a private Catholic university saying things about things about Catholicism, right? Christianity, basic things the Bible teaches. So that's
• 16:22
  That was a reaction that there's only one officially acceptable way to think about this topic. And you're the NFL. Why do you feel like you have the need to jump into the middle of a controversy? The only time a brand that large will jump in and attempt to save face is if they feel like this has the potential to do great damage to their brand.
• 16:51
  Which is crazy to think about. And the other thing that happened was that Harrison Butker's jerseys sold out everywhere. It's like you can't get one. There's so many people that are like, oh my gosh, thank you for just saying these basic things out loud.
• 17:10
  Now, the reason you guys, why we're really interested in this conversation at Family Teams isn't because we're political. One of the things that you have to understand is that I don't think that these are particularly political issues. But the problem is that when a lot of people who don't have any faith, they put into the political arena everything, including sexual ethics, including politics.
• 17:35
  family values. These things are, I don't think are political. Historically, they've never been political issues. You wouldn't be able to tell if somebody were on the left or on the right based on what they thought about whether or not the family is a good thing or their particular sexual ethic. That's a very recent phenomenon. And so one of the things that you have to hear us say is that I have zero interest on this podcast to get involved in political issues. But when the political invades
• 18:02
  these spaces of our faith, where it starts to make definitive statements about sexual ethics, when it starts to make definitive statements about the value or the lack of value of certain family lifestyles or things that will impact children and men and women and fatherhood and motherhood, then we have to speak about those things. And we can't be sensitive and say, oh, well, because...
• 18:23
  It suddenly has become a political football to have a conversation around these things. Now we're going to have to retreat from that space. No, we don't retreat from spaces that are a part of our faith. We try to do everything we can to keep the political out of that world, that realm.
• 18:38
  But we sometimes we don't we're not the only ones who get to make that decision. That decision is made by oftentimes people that that decide to make it a political issue instead of saying, no, no, that's the realm of that's the realm for family or for faith or for people's values or their worldviews. And so this is a really complicated problem that that we're that we're creating. So, yeah. Any other thoughts you guys have about what do you think?
• 19:01
  I think part of what I'm really trying to understand about what this is suggesting is, is it like, what does it say about what is occurring in the realm of motherhood?
• 19:16
  Um, if, if we've created a culture, I'm just imagining a young girl growing up in a culture in which it's inappropriate to publicly say, praise motherhood in the way that, that Harrison Bucker did. Like, what does this do to our daughters? And have you guys had, um, have seen a shift or how, how have you been impacted or how have you thought about as you're raising, uh, daughters or you've grown up in a culture where this is becoming increasingly taboo? Yeah. Any of you want to weigh in on, on how you feel like that, that is impacting women?
• 19:45
  Yeah, I think it sadly even seeped into the Christian church where –
• 19:56
  There's a lot of pushing, you know, especially women, you know, yes, be a wife and mother, but go get your degree too. Like that's important too, you know, and I have my degree and I'm at the point where I'm looking at, wow, like I am so grateful for that. But I literally can say that I feel like my life began when I was a mother, you know, like it feels like a totally different life to me and.
• 20:20
  Um, but it's definitely challenged my husband and I, and how we're raising our daughters. You know, I want there to be a culture where it's normalized and it's praised, you know, like every, um, Sabbath, uh, since I don't know, Christmas, we have been during our Sabbath, Cameron, uh, my husband, um,
• 20:41
  uh blesses me but he speaks over me proverbs 31 and the kids get in on it and everything and that i will tell you has like literally done something to my whole being each time each time he blesses me with that like it's hard to put into words honestly um
• 21:03
  how important that is. I think that it's coming from my husband and he's speaking into that for me and my daughters. And we even had, um, we had birthdays, all my kids' birthdays in the last couple of months. And we decided to have their birthday parties on Shabbat. And so they would come in and there's all these girls like lined up for our oldest birthday. And, um,
• 21:23
  I was proud of my husband that he said, hey, all of you, you are one day going to be wives and mothers. And I was so proud of him because that is the greatest thing that we can speak over our daughters and their friends. But it was interesting to get some looks of like, oh, anyway, I think there's so much to be said about speaking that blessing over your wife and your daughter in your home. So, yeah.
• 21:50
  That's interesting because there's, there's no, nobody would, nobody would push back if you were asking a girl, what do you want to be when you grow up? Like, you know, really suggesting that, that you want to hear what career path they want to pick. Like no one's going to say, oh, that's inappropriate. You don't know. But just to overtly talk about your daughter becoming a mother.
• 22:12
  is becoming controversial. Like, well, who are you to, to sort of call an identity over them that maybe they, they don't want to choose as an individual. There is no such thing as a normative identity at all. And that's very unusual. I mean, this, again, this is one of those things that culturally, I don't think we understand the level of damage that does, how confusing that is. Of course, there are times where men and women can choose to be single, but that is not a normative decision to choose to be single.
• 22:41
  is an abnormal decision, and there are good reasons for it. The New Testament describes what those are. But I think that it's important for us to be raising our sons to become husbands and fathers, and to be raising our daughters to become wives and mothers. And if there is a really, really unique calling on the life of
• 22:59
  you know, a son or daughter to say that you're going to marry Christ and have only spiritual children as a single lifelong single person, then you are still a mother. You are still a father in a spiritual sense. And so all of those words that you've spoken over them are still active and that you want to see spiritual children come from their efforts. But that is a highly unusual decision.
• 23:20
  Singleness is not highly unusual, but the decision that you have to remain single for spiritual reasons is highly unusual. But even in those cases, I think you are designed to be a parent. Everyone is nobody. There's there are no exceptions to the command to be fruitful and multiply, fill, subdue and rule.
• 23:41
  that we should be assuming are normative. We're all called to do that. And so I think this culture of life, like you called out, Michelle, is really important. Yeah. Any other thoughts, April or Justine, about like, what is it like trying to raise a daughter or grow up in a culture that considers this to be out of bounds, this kind of speech?
• 24:02
  Well, I think that the, you can see the enemy's fingerprints all over this, that there's feminism, but it goes way back to the garden, I feel like, where, you know, the enemy came after Eve and he's been trying to destroy God's design from the beginning. And
• 24:22
  one way he's used powerfully in the last couple hundred years is this whole feminism thing. And I know that probably part of what the, these ladies were so upset about is the, the whole work ethic thing, because I know when, um, I,
• 24:38
  What's the lady's name from the 60s? Like Gretchen? That kind of started this. Gloria. Gloria Steinem. Part of her thing was like we, you would be betraying the feminist movement if you did not go get a job.
• 24:55
  And the kids will be fine. It doesn't matter what happens to them. What matters is what happens to you and your future and your path and your career. And that's what matters. And so the kids can be put in daycare or can have someone else take care of them. It doesn't really, it's not your priority. And so if you get a, if you stay home with them, you're betraying the movement. Yeah, there's that. Go ahead.
• 25:18
  See how upset they are, these two women now, how upset they are. The absolute betrayal of someone who would prefer motherhood and wifedom to a career. It's just absolutely offensive because it's hitting one of their tenets of what they believe. Yes. Mm-hmm.
• 25:41
  Yeah, it's interesting. One of the stories that has shocked me is that in the National Organization for Women now, one of the largest, if not the largest feminist organization, I think in the 60s, 70s, 80s, they had, I think, only one man on their board, Warren Farrell, who was a radical feminist himself.
• 26:01
  And he tells the story that as he was on the board of National Organization for Women and spent decades fighting for women's rights, fighting for the expansion of feminism, there started to become data that demonstrated that there were times there was there was real conflict sometimes between
• 26:21
  what feminism was advocating for women and its impact on children. So as a psychologist, Warren Farrell was sort of pointing out, look, we know that this particular, if we promote this particular pathway for women or this particular value, it's primarily going to hurt children.
• 26:37
  And so don't we have an obligation to also make clear that these pathways could hurt children? And on the board of the National Organization for Women, Warren Farrell said that he was told, no, our organization exists to further the rights of women, even at the expense of children. And what you said, April, is, yeah, that is a hidden kind of part of feminism. They refuse to really face the laws.
• 27:05
  When there is a tension or tradeoff between women and children, then we will choose children. And so Warren Farrell in- You mean choose women? I mean, choose women. And so in protest for this decision, he resigned from his board position.
• 27:24
  And he wrote this incredible book called The Boy Crisis about how so many decisions that are being made are really, really hurting children. And he wanted to especially sort of uncover the impact it was having on boys. So, yeah, this tension is real. And I think we just need to we need to honestly face it. And I think oftentimes what feminism does is it intentionally hides the tension.
• 27:49
  And so we're going to be digging deeper into that. And I know it's difficult to face. It's hard. Oftentimes it creates a lot of regret and it makes people feel judged. And there's a lot of difficult implications for facing what's happening when we promote
• 28:04
  Certain lifestyles that are really destructive towards children, but what seem to be like advantaged women in some way, usually more as an individual. And so here what we want to talk about is the impact of these, this is having on families.
• 28:19
  And so we want to change subjects a little bit and sort of also make sure that we're not just being sort of deconstructive, but also constructive. And Justine, you posted a great paragraph from a book that I think you were reading. What's it called? Family Fortunes. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. I really like this a lot. And so, Michelle, you were describing, you know, at your Shabbat table when Cameron said
• 28:46
  Um, he reads the Proverbs 31 blessing over you. And, um, we've had that practice as well. Um, and we're trying to, I'm always trying to figure out how, how do you come into your identity as a, as a matriarch? And, um, and so this, this is really interesting though. Proverbs 31, a woman is, is, is really, it is the, it is the, uh, depiction of, of the, of the biblical matriarch.
• 29:11
  This woman is really older and she is working, but it's always through the household. And so a lot of people have never even seen what a matriarch looks like. I just was looking, I was kind of interacting with somebody on Twitter, on X, who was saying that it's so dangerous to tell women to stay at home and care for children because when they turn like 45, they'll have nothing to do.
• 29:39
  And I'm like, okay, this is one of the problems. And this is one of the things I think we like to talk a lot about here at family teams. And that is that, man, your world, if you have nothing to do by the time you turn 45, then you are taking a different pathway than certainly we describe and what's being described in scripture.
• 29:57
  The sort of very isolated nuclear family that tries to launch their kids out at 18 and really pushes all of their entire family into a dispersion. And then the wife and mother sits at home with nothing to do. That is a very...
• 30:16
  That is not the vision at all that you get from scripture. And so we can talk, kind of dive into this. But I think that this depiction that comes from this book about sort of what the matriarch is doing in contrast to what oftentimes we think of as sort of the 1950s housewife, I think is important to look at. So I'll read this and then, Justin, I'd love to get your take on this, what this started up for you.
• 30:41
  But he writes here, the matriarch of the truly wealthy family is not like the housewives you see on reality TV shows. She's not a big gossip or a social climber. A matriarch is not a trophy wife. She doesn't spend her time focused on herself. She's not a big consumer of products. Instead, she's a producer of capable, confident children. She focuses on her children, making sure that they are emotionally provided for, that they are well-educated, capable individuals. She instills in them a sense of duty to themselves and to the family.
• 31:11
  The matriarch must be able to, and then he gives this bullet list, one, share in the family culture and be capable of passing it along. Indeed, she must play the leading role in creating it. Two, be capable of providing a stable home environment even when the family is on the move.
• 31:28
  Three, understand and support the wealth building strategies of the family. Four, support socially the family objectives, which could include entertaining customers, clients, associates, learning foreign languages, managing contacts with friends, relatives, business associates. Five, master complex tax and trust issues, not to mention subtle investment issues. And six, be emotionally mature and confident and have the depth to avoid getting distracted, which is not easy these days.
• 31:54
  All right. So, yeah, we love looking at depictions of matriarchs. And so I'm curious, Justine, how did this strike you? I just felt like it gave such a beautiful picture of like the high and fully calling that is motherhood that often, like you said, is not depicted that way. It's more lazy and just consumptive rather than producing and being very intentional within your home and being.
• 32:22
  your children and towards your husband. So I just really appreciated like, wow, when you read that, you realize there's a lot that goes into motherhood that is devalued or not even talked about at all. And I just appreciated that. Yeah.
• 32:43
  Yeah, so much like good detail. April, you're in the midst of this transition. So we talk a lot about the sort of progression from maiden to mother to matriarch. And so, yeah, what are some things that you've thought through? Anything in that paragraph sort of reminiscent of things that you're working on or you're seeing in this transition?
• 33:04
  Yeah, for sure. I do feel like it's like an additional description of what we see in Proverbs 31. The idea of understanding like the financial, the economic engine of the home, being involved in that to some degree.
• 33:22
  And that can change, you know, through the years. And then as you're expanding, there becomes more to either take on or to navigate. And I feel like you just have to live a certain amount of years for these things to happen. And so it's really neat to see God's progression of maiden to mother to matriarch and
• 33:49
  I mean, you might feel like the matriarch when you're younger if you have had to kind of become the Abraham and Sarah for your family. Like if you feel like you're starting from scratch or starting, you know, needing to kind of break off a lot of old things and do things the way that your family maybe didn't do.
• 34:10
  So you might feel like a younger matriarch before you become a grandma, you know, at that point. But with me actually becoming a grandma recently, a year ago, it sent us on all these like different conversations like, wow, this is so crazy to see how this is happening.
• 34:25
  the timing is all lining up and like all of these different things. And I think even just like, oh, learn a foreign language. It just happens to be in there. Like if your husband's dealings are from afar, then you're just going to pick up on that foreign language.
• 34:40
  Well, I'm not sure what mom that's like in the process of like still birthing and nursing and recovering is probably also going to just take up a language, you know. So that just kind of shows it's like maybe life after those things. And I think when I look now at the years I have left on this planet, which, of course, is up to the Lord. I don't know how many they are, but they could be a good amount.
• 35:09
  So seeing what you can do and just reflecting on how many years, like Jeremy and I just had our 26th anniversary. Like, wow, 26 years. That's so long. But then when you look at my in-laws, they've been married 56 years. And it's like, wow, that's so much longer.
• 35:27
  So it's like there is so much life to live and there is so much to take on and so much, so many ways to expand. And as a matriarch, that gets me really excited about what's to come. And we don't even really know what that's going to mean. We don't know how many grandkids we're going to have. We don't know.
• 35:46
  how far apart they're going to be or what genders they're going to be or where they're going to be living and what that's going to mean for us. But the fact that I kind of open up my mind,
• 36:01
  The continuation of surrender, like Michelle said, like at the very beginning, you're like laying yourself down so much. There's this kind of self-sacrifice, which of course the world hates, but this idea that Jesus gives us the example as a believer of laying down himself for others. And so we can...
• 36:18
  do that in our motherhood in so many practical ways. And then it can continue on into matriarch. It's not, I'm not viewing the matriarch season as a time to just finally, you know, stop caring and be able to put my feet up. And all of a sudden I don't really care what happens to my kids. Like,
• 36:38
  That just is impossible to think about. So the idea that like I'm willing to still pour out my life for you and practically. So if I have a pregnant daughter, I'm going to, you know, shave her legs for her when she's eight months pregnant. Yeah.
• 36:55
  Paint her toenails or I'm going to, you know, watch the wash the dishes when her belly gets so big that the sink is really hard. Like those kinds of things just to come alongside and encourage. A lot of it is just so practical. Yeah. A lot, you know, alongside the kind of big picture philosophical stuff.
• 37:17
  Right. Yeah, it is very practical. And that's where I think that the way that certainly our lifestyle is and what we're advocating for and we're seeing for families who think about their family as a multi-generational team, the role of the mother and then the transition to matriarch, your job just gets much more complicated and more multifaceted, right? Because you have the wisdom to handle that level of complexity. Far from like, oh, all of a sudden now I've lost
• 37:46
  my job when now the kids have left the nest. We don't believe in empty nesting. We don't believe that the family is a nest. We think the family is a team. And so what you find yourself doing, if you're on this pathway, when you become a grandmother, you're going to be a parent.
• 38:01
  is that you are now at the top of a, of a growing organization with lots of economic implications. We've got multiple businesses and assets that April and I get to manage together and working together. You've got, you know, now we have two married children and they're starting businesses and having kids. And then we, you know, so there's, there's the level of complexity. Like is, is it's like, it's very stretching. I know I probably, you would, you know, it's like every day, I feel like you're being stretched and you, you have multiple degrees and, you know,
• 38:31
  you could be using all of those talents in other ways, but you've really focused those talents on our household. And what a lot of people I think are hearing this, you have to understand that what we're talking about is a household. And if you're not building a household, if you're not building your family to be a household,
• 38:49
  that it involves things like economic engines that are going through the household, then I know this might sound strange, like, oh, what is the role? What are you exactly doing practically? And there are like the small details of practical things that have to be worked out. And then there are some really big picture things that we're constantly working on together. Like what you hear? Be sure to leave a rating and review for this podcast wherever you use streaming.
• 39:16
  April and I have, we have multiple meetings a week. We meet with, you know, various, you know, different entities that we're managing. We've got a nonprofit and multiple businesses and, you know, real estate assets. And then we've got all of our kids that are growing all those things. And so there's so much to growing a household and preparing our children to grow a household. So yeah, there's a lot going on there. And part of, you know, when you hear me
• 39:38
  even in the intro, I kind of promoted, um, you know, Chris's business and Cameron's, you know, his YouTube channel. Cause I just see that I don't, somebody might hear that and go, Oh, why would you even mention what their husbands are doing? It's like, I don't think of it that way at all. This is what their families are doing. Like, these are things that are supporting their families and that, you know, their wives are going to be a part of supporting in whatever way, you know, that they, they can, but this is, this is just part of the whole deal is that the economics, um, um, um, um, um,
• 40:05
  are an integrated part of the household the businesses and assets that are owned by the family are nested underneath a family they're not some kind of separate individual identity being chased by one member of the family and so that's a very different way to to think about it so yeah i'm just curious michelle for you as you think about like as you're moving closer and closer to getting into um the matriarch stage what are some things elements of this that are that are uh kind of standing out to you
• 40:28
  Yeah, well, speaking of gardening and my husband's channel, I just keep getting this visual from the garden, which is helpful for me. And maybe it's helpful for listeners today, because when we plant seeds, seeds are already designed by the Lord to reproduce. And so, you know, when we planted our kale plants last year, we've been enjoying the fruit. You know, we've been enjoying the kale over and over again.
• 40:54
  And, um, but right now they're starting to seed, they're sending out the flowers and the seeds are forming and pretty soon they'll fall to the ground to reproduce. And while April was sharing about motherhood and just the different stages, I just was thinking of how God's embedded that same process in the garden.
• 41:15
  Um, where there's, you know, one seed starts it and then a plant emerges and you get to enjoy, you know, that person enjoys the fruit of it. And there becomes a point where like actually for kale, once it starts to flower and there's seeds, the leaves that are remaining become bitter. Like you can't eat them. They're super, very bitter. Um, but it's because the,
• 41:45
  And I feel like that's a picture of motherhood where we're at that stage of, you know, almost two teenagers and just really like trying to get them in a position to like go to their next stage, you know, where they're in it. I don't know. So if that makes sense. Yeah.
• 42:06
  It's just kind of cool to think about how there's other things in nature that point to that same thing. There has to be laying down the life in order for the next to thrive.
• 42:22
  No, that was great. There's a life cycle that you have to embrace. And I think this is really intimidating for people in our culture because you're only allowed to ever be a maiden in our culture. You see someone like Madonna in her, is she in her seventies now, like still dressing and acting like she's in the maiden stage. It's never appropriate to just say, no, now I'm a mother. And so I'm in a new phase. Now I'm a matriarch. You know, this is, I think this is what's so disturbing about what's going on with Taylor Swift. We were talking about earlier, which is
• 42:49
  you know, the fact that, you know, it was cute when she was in her 20s, you know, like, oh, I'm trying to date and trying to find the right one. Are you still trying to find the right one? Like, like now her latest album apparently has gotten a lot, you know, a lot more cynical. Yeah. Like this is going to happen if you don't make those transitions properly.
• 43:05
  It's really important that we tell women this. They don't know this. They're really taught you need to constantly fight for that maiden stage and just hold on to by the, you know, by your fingernails and into your 50s, 60s, 70s. It's like, man, how is this helping women? You know, it's like this is not realistic at all. This is not helpful. And we need older women to say, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa. It's OK to make this transition.
• 43:30
  You're not losing something that isn't taking you into a better place. But that's the reason why we need people, like going back to our previous conversation, where we have to be able to say out loud that these transitions are good. And there have to be men who are saying, I'm not just interested in going from one maiden to another maiden. I want to marry a woman who's not going to be good.
• 43:52
  who is making the transitions and we're doing it together. She's becoming a mother. I'm becoming a father. She becomes a matriarch. I become a patriarch. Those are really beautiful transitions in a family. And I think that they're the pathway for maximal thriving for the vast majority of men and women.
• 44:09
  And so, yeah, this, this, this sort of myth of the, the, the perpetual maiden is, is killing our culture. So any other last thoughts on this topic?
• 44:24
  Well, I just had a, I feel like I'm learning so much about this from our daughter, Kelsey. So she's been married for two years and been a mom for one. And after she had her baby, she was, she came in one day and dumped this big garbage bag of clothes onto the living room floor and was like, okay, girls, to all her younger sisters, she's like, here's all my maiden clothes. I will never fit in these again and probably shouldn't ever wear these again. So if any of you want them.
• 44:54
  And she kind of walked away and I'm just sitting there thinking, I remember saving my clothes and trying so hard to like fit back into them or just the mental idea of like, oh, I'm letting go of something or I should be able to fit or, you know, this for her, it was like, boom, boom, done.
• 45:13
  I am now a mother and this is where I'm heading. And it just seemed, it was really encouraging to me. Cause that's not something I directly taught her, but it's just like, it was an outflow of what she believes about motherhood and this transition into starting their own branch of the family.
• 45:30
  Yeah. I think that's a testament too, that she saw you thriving as a mother, April. And I think that when you see that, I think a lot of women, they really saw their mothers struggle so much with being a mother that it's like...
• 45:46
  They haven't seen a good example of like of a mother who's thriving and then certainly a matriarch who's loving being a matriarch. We need we need this. And this is part of the reason why it's as difficult as it is for us to get on these podcasts and just, you know, expose ourselves a little bit publicly to, I think.
• 46:02
  some really controversial topics. It's really important for us to talk about these things because, um, because a lot of people in their own families, they're just not seeing, um, any hope. They don't, they don't see a good pathway, um, through these transitions. And so, yeah, we're going to talk a lot more about these transitions as we have more conversations about motherhood on the podcast. So I just want to thank, uh, Michelle and Justine and April. Thank you guys so much for joining me today and everyone for listening and, um,
• 46:28
  Please let me know if there are topics you want us to cover. You can direct message me and the rest of us at Family Teams. If there are videos out there that you think would be really helpful for us to comment, I really love getting those messages. Try to shoot those over to me, and we will continue to have these conversations. Thank you all for joining the podcast today.
• 46:50
  Thank you for listening to the Family Teams podcast. If you're enjoying this content or have learned something new, please make sure to leave a rating and review and share with a friend. To stay up to date with our events, new content, and products, you can follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Family Teams.