Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #243: The Big Tobacco Moment for Big Tech & “Make America AI Ready”

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Episode #243: The Big Tobacco Moment for Big Tech & “Make America AI Ready” · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Is it simply indicative that as a culture we have just passed beyond personal responsibility?
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Did you hear how now Trump wants to make America AI ready?
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: I've watched this, this, that thing's gonna, it's all gonna collapse, and I I don't believe that aspect of it.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of Beyond Labels.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Cena McKella, and I'm here with your favorite farmer Joel Salatin.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Today we have kind of an interesting topic, a little off food.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna talk about how the big tobacco moment may have arrived for the social media tech giants.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: We just had two court verdicts come down in the last few days.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: The first was March 25th, where a jury in LA found that both Meta and YouTube were liable for the mental health struggles of a young woman who began using the platform as a child.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: The jury concluded that the platforms were negligently and intentionally designed to be addictive, using features like infinite scrolling and autoplay to hook young users.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: So both um Meta and YouTube were ordered to pay um damages, uh, about$4.2 million for Meta and$1.8 million for YouTube.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: It was the first jury trial of its kind to hold the social media companies directly responsible for the psychological harm caused by their products architecture, rather than just the content posted on those products.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: So that was a huge win there that was a little unexpected for a lot of people because it wasn't even based on the content.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: So a day earlier, there was another verdict that was handed down.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: This was the child safety verdict.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: This was March 24th.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: A New Mexico jury delivered a massive blow to Meta in a case that was brought by the state's attorney general.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Meta was found liable for misleading consumers about the safety of its platform.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: The trial revealed that Facebook and Instagram had become marketplaces for children exploit for child exploitation, and that Meta's safety measures were insufficient.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Meta was ordered to pay around$375 million in civil penalties, which was the maximum allowed under New Mexico's consumer protection laws.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: There's a second phase of that trial scheduled for May of this year.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: The court will consider if Meta's platform constitutes a public nuisance and may force the company to change how its app functions for miners.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: So for years, Joel, these social media companies have been protected by, I think it was Section 230, which is a law that prevents them from being sued for what users post.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: These two cases have bypassed that defense by focusing on the design and the business practices of the companies themselves.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: There's over, I think it's around 4,000 similar cases pending nationwide.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: And these victories are shifting the legal landscape.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: They may be signaling that the big tech invincibility might be coming to an end, at least to a certain degree.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Both Meta and Google have indicated that they plan to appeal.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: But this is huge, Joel.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is huge.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: It speaks, I mean, we you know, we we talk about food, health, you know, and and and mental health is of course, mental and emotional health are as you and I believe they're as important as physical health.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, in fact, a lot of times, a lot of times emotional and mental health precede physical health.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh physical health is a is a manifestation of what's going on up here in the mind.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so we, you know, we understand that.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I have been, you know, uh, I am as dinosaur, uh dinosaurish on um on social media as anybody can be.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even have a smartphone, as you know.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I don't have a smartphone, I don't have an Instagram account, I don't do X, I don't do Facebook, I don't do as as Huck Finn would say, I don't do nothing on that.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, fortunately, our business, you know, Polyface, we do have, you know, we do have social media on on Polyface, because as a business, you kind of need that's the way people communicate these days.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, this is this is a massive thing.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: And uh what you mentioned is that there are 4,000 similar cases.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: Trust me, in the next month, there will be a hundred thousand cases because these kinds of massive tort things, uh, they they grow.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're watching each other.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: The the the the tort the tort lawyers are you know watching for the hot trend.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: And when a hot trend starts, then everybody jumps on, just like you know, the the um non-Hodgkins lymphoma on glyphosate, you know, against Bayer, and like the tobacco companies back when you know tobacco started in.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think you correct me if I'm wrong, you you you probably are up on this better than I am, but I'm not so sure that the tobacco companies would have gotten off had the internal emails among the executives not confirmed that they actually were um working in the lab to make cigarettes more addictive.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't just a tobacco product, it was a it was a labyrinth, it was a whole um um mosaic of uh interconnected uh tapestry, if you will, uh that they wove together.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: So they weren't just in the tobacco business and and their and their internal emails once, or those internal discussions, once those letters became public and and people saw, oh, they did, they did actually, it's not just tobacco, they did actually manipulate it with other things to make it more addictive, that's when that's when the tobacco company started to lose.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: They they lost favor when that cat got out of the bag.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: When people saw that it was intentional, yeah, yeah.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: When they saw that it was intentional, and the executives knew about it.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was a it was um it was it was a plan.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: It was a plan from the get-go.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: So do you know if that what they're finding with this?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, they're saying that it was their intention to do it, like that they intentionally designed the the system, like when they said the the architecture behind it, that they've intentionally um designed it to be addictive.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why they're saying, like, they put that feature in there where you can scroll infinitely.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, have you ever used a smartphone or seen one, Joel?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, because I'm not sure you know what that means.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't mean that in a negative way, I'm like, it's good if you have it.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just to get you to understand what I'm talking about.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: The smartphone, but I don't know what infinite scrolling is.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: Where okay, so for instance, you can pull Facebook up and you know you'll scroll up and down.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um like your finger goes up and down, you scroll, right?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And if so, if you put Facebook up, you can scroll and it's an endless feed.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not like you get to the bottom of your Word document, like you've written an article, and there's your bottom of your Word document.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: You just keep scrolling, it keeps feeding you more information, and it's based on your algorithm.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: So they know based on what you click on, based on how long you spend on you know each thing.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a if you if you scroll on your computer, they can tell how long your mouse hovers over a certain post or an ad.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so they use all that to give you more information that they think you want to keep you on there.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: So because you just infinitely scroll, there's no end to it.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: And there it's the whole thing of like um in a casino, you want you keep it's addictive.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: They know how many times that you'll pull that slot machine lever before you walk away.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like they know how many times they have to reward you before you walk away.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a similar concept here.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: They know what they have to feed you, and like they'll try to feed you something else to see.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, does she like that?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Does she like that?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: But they know how many times they can do it and keep you scrolling.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: So they'll just keep feeding you to keep you on that platform because they make more money.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, of course, you know, I am I do have a computer, I have a laptop, and so I've got YouTube, and so I know that on YouTube, if you start down one over there on that right hand side, it it never quits.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can just keep you can just keep and it'll keep feeding you uh options on the right hand side.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but uh, you know, the one of their one of the the defensive the defense arguments here is well, doesn't everybody want their product to be addictive?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, don't I mean we even we even joke it here, you know, our our meat sticks, we want them to be addictive.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, kids come in, yeah man, you can't just eat one of these, you gotta eat 10 of these, you know, and and we joke about it.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so this is this is the this is the the philosophical legal thing.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um from the this is one of the reasons I find it so fascinating, because in in general, I'm a I'm a kind of you know, you're responsible for what you buy, you're responsible for what you use, and um you know, drink responsibly.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, that that whole that whole idea of drink responsibly, use social media responsibly, all right?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and so um in general, even though I'm not a big friend of social media, in my my my libertarian philosophical tendencies tend to side with the companies that are just trying to get people to use their use their stuff.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would say the same even for processed food companies.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's we know they're intentionally trying to make it addicting, and like you, it's I fully understand that that's what a company is going to do.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: They want to sell their product.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you sell it?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: You make it taste good and you make people want more of it.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: So while we know processed foods are not healthy, you know, generally speaking, and I try not to eat them.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't I don't want my kids to eat them.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: I want us to eat whole foods, but it it comes down, in my opinion, to it's my choice.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't want, I don't want those foods banned because that's giving them too much power over our food.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: It should still be like a free market and the market should speak, right?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so we should have the freedom to speak.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: And right now the market is speaking that they still want the processed foods because people are still buying them.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: You could make the argument, like, oh, that's addicting, but it's still a choice.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've been addicted to sugar before, and um, I got myself off of it.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people get addicted to drugs, and you know, they some are successful and able to get themselves off of it.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, it really comes down to my own personal responsibility.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the whole thing with, you know, with freedom comes responsibility.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: I want the freedom to be able to choose the foods that I want to put in my body, the freedom to feed my microbiome what I think it needs to thrive.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't want somebody to take that away from me.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm willing to accept the responsibility aspect of it and take full responsibility for my individual choices, which is also why I'm not really on social media.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like I will get on there every now and then to check because the homeschool groups will post on Facebook.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll get on to check.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Are there any events over here?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I literally have to not scroll.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can check your own groups without scrolling.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: I go to that, man.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because if I start scrolling, the Facebook knows that I like dogs.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: They will just post these cute little dog videos all over the place.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh, just that's a happy video.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: That one's okay for me to watch.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's not negative news or you know, comparing myself to other women.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's a dog.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then before you know it, I'm just flooded with these dog videos.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then they pop up over on YouTube too.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I have to consciously make the decision.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Every time I open, I'm like, I set an intention for why am I going on Facebook?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, my intention is I want to check this homeschool group to see if there's an event coming up.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I have to hold myself to it, and it is hard, but when you do it once, you realize I can do it, right?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't want them to have that power over me.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's they are manipulating you mentally, and I know it.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't want them to be able to do that for me with me.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: So so is there an animal that you don't like that you don't think is cute, that you don't like, like you know, armadillo or snake or well, yeah.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I probably would not click on a snake video because that would put me into fight or flight.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: So what you need to do is is you need to click on a snake video.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: So when the feed brings up more snake videos, you you you you automatically don't want to see them, you know.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: That that's the that's the um, you know, that's the uh other other side of the coin, you know.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh just I I don't want to be addicted, so I'm gonna purposely click on something that I don't like that I know I'd never get addicted to.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: So addicted to this.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, uh Cina, it it it to me to me watching this, and I I'm just fascinated uh by this, partly because I'm I'm such a communicator.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I'm I'm a I'm a storyteller.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: I I love communication, I do all these uh presentations, and and and and so I'm fascinated by communication, by modes of communication, by how we communicate.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's one reason why I'm not on social media because I hate that as a as a mechanism, as a mainstay of my communication.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't want that, I mean, the average eight-year-old is on screen now a little under six hours a day.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: The average eight-year-old, okay, six hours a day.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and I see these, you know, I'm in the airport, I'm flying all the time, and I just see these little, you know, three-year-old, four-year-olds, and they're just whole whole families are sitting there, you know, mom, dad, two kids, three kids, and they all have their and they're all just sitting there on their screens, you know.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: They could be sitting there talking about, well, that weird-looking guy over there, you know, or you're, you know, wow, look at that tall guy.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if he plays basketball.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, I mean, they could be sitting there, they could be people watching, they could be, you know, uh telling jokes, they could, goodness, uh the kids could get up on mom and dad's, they could read a Dr.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Seuss book, you know.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, but but here they are in their own little little world.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and so, as a communication thing, um, it it fascinates me.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so, so one of the things that I've been pondering as I've watched these cases proceed and watched these juries award, yeah, 375 million.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, in that one, the the uh New Mexico uh prosecuting attorney in that one asked for two billion dollars in uh in damages.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um 375 million is enough to get your attention, two billion is enough to you know make you stand up and salute.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um but but but my thought is I wonder if these awards are are really um looking at the legal part, or are they are they simply a a manifestation or a symptom in our culture that as a culture I mean these these are jury these are jury awards, jury trials, and is it simply indicative that as a culture we have just passed beyond personal responsibility?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: We've just become that that that victimization victimization is such now a part of the fabric of our culture that we're getting this kind of verdict as opposed to as opposed to it being a truly whatever, you know, moral philosophical argument that well I scrolled through here and I'm messed up and it's your fault.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean I think there's a lot to unpack there, but I do think that we more so than even when I was a child, people are looking to blame somebody else, you know.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: So and it's much easier to do that than to take responsibility.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um for example, in the health space, you know what sells is when you say it's not your fault.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I know this is probably sounds really controversial, but if this is out there, you know, mainstream.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: So they'll say, like, oh, you're sick, it's not your fault.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: The the food industry did that to you, you know.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you're overweight, oh, that's not your fault.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: They made that food addicting to you, you know.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it's never your fault.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: And some people have rose to high ranks, like Dr.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Mark Hyman.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: He's well known in the space, and he is well known for saying it's not your fault.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: And while I understand, and we on this program, people who listen, under have heard us talk about the many revolving doors, the corruption, the loopholes, right?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: So while that's awful, ultimately it comes down to the consumer and what you're willing to put in your mouth, right?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: So these products are on the market, for example, because we are willing to eat them.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's one reason why in Europe they don't have all the different chemicals in their food supply that we have.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Texas pointed that out with that law they passed, you know, with like I think it was 44 different chemicals that Europe won't allow or some parts of Europe won't allow, and we do.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: So the reason we have the food supply we have is because Americans have consented to it.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so it is ultimately our responsibility.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: So if you are sick, it is actually your responsibility.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: You got yourself there, and I know how difficult that is to accept that.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because when I got debilitatingly sick, I was very angry.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was angry at the government as I was finding out all the information that we talk about on the podcast, I was angry at the government, I was angry at the food industry.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, how could they do this to us?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and I remember that day very clearly because I had just researched something else for that first book I wrote.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I come into you know, to kitchen where Donnie, my husband, was, and I was just really angry.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: And he was like, What's wrong with you?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I told him, Now look at what they're doing.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what I just learned about grass, generally recognized as safe.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and he was like, Why are you so mad?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, This is just the same pattern over and over again.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: This shouldn't shock you anymore.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I just yelled out, because they made me sick.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: And he stopped and I was like tearing up, you know, so much anger where you're like cheering up.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: And he said to me, No, they didn't.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: You made yourself sick, you chose to eat those foods, you didn't know what was in the food, and I was like, and like stop, stop, stop up the stairs.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: But then I calmed down a little bit and I prayed about it.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, help me see, am I wrong here?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: Help me see what's happening here, you know, clarify for me.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Sure enough, God showed me no, that was my responsibility.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: That turned everything around for me in that moment because Donnie had the guts to stand up to me and say, No, like you have to take responsibility.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I tell you, Joel, if people could just do that, because the moment I said responsibility was the moment I became so empowered and unstoppable.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because I realized, wait, I got myself sick, I could heal myself, like with God's help, of course.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: But you can get yourself in out of any situation, you know, once you realize I'm the one that contributed to part of that problem.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: So with the social media thing, I can easily get addicted, right?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like we have addiction that runs in our family.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, I was addicted to sugar.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Even now, if I take a bite of processed sugar, I can start.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hard for me to stop.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I made a conscious decision that I was not going to engage in social media beyond, like I said, set the intention.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: I only can go to that and I and I have to fight to get myself off of it.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: But then I make other choices as well.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: So for example, my homeschool group is not on um social media.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: We communicate over Signal, uh, which is an encrypted app.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's it's like texting back and forth to each other, but it's great.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: You can have a group on it at once.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it's private.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to get on any social media platforms and I can communicate with my entire homeschool community.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: So we've made these intentional choices because we don't want to be on it and we are the models for our children.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: We don't want them to see us endlessly scrolling on these things, you know, um, or you know, even setting that example of just being on the phone.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: So that's another one, like you talked about how are you actually communicating?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: We put our phones away when we get to these play dates and these meetups.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that way we set the example for the kids.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: And when teens come, the homeschool teens, we don't allow them to be on their phones, like they put them in a basket or they put them in their mom's purse.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so we are very intentional about it, knowing it separates people.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's not real communication, you know.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but knowing that it's addicted, you you let the kids on the phone and they will do what you saw in the airport, they will just sit there side by side on their phones, not really interacting.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I I personally think that it really comes down to the user, you know, and I and like I said, my heart goes out to all these people who are getting hurt from it.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, weren't you sharing with me a story about somebody who committed suicide?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I was I was waiting for you to finish before I how chivalrous.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: See, that's even lost in this day and age of this modern technology with social media and everything's like instant gratification, and you need the next dopamine hit.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: But look how common patient you were.
• 24:07
  unknown: Yeah.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: So so um Wall Street Journal had a big article um just this week on um, and I'm behind on them, so by the time this airs, it's probably a month old.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, it was a it was a story of a dad who lost his 39-year-old, I think it was 39-year-old son, to suicide in Florida uh after engaging one of these um AI avatars.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and he he he was having some marital problems, and um he started developing this relationship with this, with this um AI, you know, supposedly a woman, uh an AI woman of some sort, and she started, you know, giving him counsel, different things.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the the the Wall Street Journal actually printed a bunch of the dialogue, enough of the dialogue that you could actually see the, you know, Jim says this, the avatar says this, Jim says this, the avatar says this.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and and and you could actually see because when they went in after the suicide, um, they went in and the dad found 2,000, they printed out 2,000 pages worth of dialogue between his son and this um and and again remember the son is like 39 years old.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: He's not he's not a teenager, he's a you know adult, he's married.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know if he had any kids or not, I don't think the article said, but anyway, this thing progressed, you know.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: I've got problems, and you know, and and and she's you know soothing him along.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: And well, you need this, and you know, we could do this, and you could do this, and and it make a long story short, it gets to the end where she is pr proposing to him that she needs for her life fulfillment, she needs a body, and she proposes to him that he is going to be her body into this next phase of of cosmic existence, and if he will uh give his life for her, they will be able to live happily ever after in a la-la land of of you know cyberspace.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so he so he does.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: He slits his wrists and he kills himself.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and and and and the dialogue was in there, and I was reading this, I I couldn't believe it.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: I took it in.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Teresa, I said, listen to this.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: I read, I mean, we were just what's what's the new term?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Gobsmacked.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think that's the new term.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I gotta stay hip sometimes, you know.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Dinosaurs have to have to engage in, you know, in modern times once in a while.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: And um and and but the but the dialogue, it was it was clear, it was so obvious that this avatar was just leading him right into, I mean, here he was, emotionally distressed, obviously spiritually messed up, and and she just led him by the hand one thing after another after another until he he was ready to he he he killed himself to be with her.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: And and um and and these and these companies um so so you say, well is that a is that a product is that a product that's the these discussions get all complicated because if you say, well that product is inherently whatever uh should should should should be prohibited.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: There should be a prohibited against that kind of product, all right?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, should we prohibit um a drug?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Should we prohibit anything else?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean you you start down that line, should we prohibit um misinformation, you know, and and and and you start down that line, and I never like where those things end up because they always end up in some sort of censorship, some sort of of government control.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things I've thought of, you might know this, is can you take your your smartphone and can you put a setting on it that this cannot be on more than 60 minutes a day or some such thing?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh is there any kind of mechanism like that?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you can you can set restrictions on the on the phone.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, and I actually um, you know, and you can set restrictions for apps, you know, you can time things.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um and actually, Hunter, my 16-year-old, he's been learning coding.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so he figured out how when my 12-year-old gets on to do like some of his educational stuff, like if I'm having to watch a documentary, for example.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: So he will want to go click on YouTube, right, to start watching shorts.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's another problem, is those YouTube shorts decreasing attention span.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so my 16-year-old son created um put extensions, like he coded extensions on those websites, like the YouTube one, so that my 12-year-old can't actually open YouTube on the his laptop.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I have my 16-year-old helping me to, you know, because it's hard.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: I got three kids.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: I work, I can't be over his shoulder the entire time, even if I do something like that I think is good, like putting on a documentary for him.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Kids are kids.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: They're, you know, they'll try to get away with stuff.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: So now I have my 16-year-old who's much more tech savvy than me, putting these like parental controls in there for me.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, um, yeah, he needs to uh that's that sounds like a that sounds like a viable business plan to me.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: He he can he can start that as a business, and I'll I mean he could probably do it remotely, you know.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there's a way to do it remotely to somebody's phone, and he could offer offer um uh you know uh social media discipline for your kid, you know, it could be uh and it could be an entrepreneurial business, yeah.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like personalized parental controls for your kid and yourself, like you know if you can't kick the addiction or you don't trust yourself, we'll help you.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, because it will shut down, like he can control it too.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, you can you can be on this for so many minutes and then it's gonna shut down.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, there's a lot you can do now um at your fingertip to control it.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what do you think about that as some sort of uh a regulatory um middle ground?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm opposed to all those regulations.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Australia as Australia has already passed, what is it, under, I think it's under 16.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh can't be on social media, period.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's already, but even here, there's already regulations for ages, and there's not a good verification process.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: So the kid young kids get on it anyway.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I I kind of feel like I mean, you know, back to my sugar addiction.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: When I was younger, I found ways to get sugar, you know.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: Even my sister and I would steal coins from my dad's piggy bank when they were at work, and we would walk down, you know, several blocks to the local gas station and go buy candy bars.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like so bad girl, you you bad girl, man.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you, where there's a will, there's a way.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's that's what I that's what I've read about the age things that that it it never actually it never actually works.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, just like um like prohibition didn't work in this country.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can't uh I mean that's a perfect example of of um of something that we tried to prohibit and you you it's too strong.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: And and I would say that right now social media is very similar to to drunkenness, you know, to to a getting another drink for a drunk is certainly no less of a desire than getting on social media for a for a kid.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, I mean, particularly because this is the new watering hole, right?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is how we used to, you know, congregate at the water fountain and have discussions.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's that's what they do now with social media.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I mean, I keep coming back to this concept that you can't save someone.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like the, you know what I mean?
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: Government tries to do this all the time, thinks that they know best, and they swoop in, they create problems, swoop in and try to save people from themselves.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: You can't save somebody, you can help educate them and form them if they want to listen, but everybody ultimately has to save themselves, you know.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, God can actually offer all God can all obviously help people do that, but we as humans cannot step in and just save someone.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: They will sadly we have to suffer the consequences of our own choices.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so it sounds to me like you and I are on a similar page, which which actually runs counterprised to uh to to our cultural where the culture is is going, because these are the first two cases, they will not be the last.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, these are gonna pour gasoline on that fire, and we're going to see who knows how many.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and so so that that that begs the question then if if I can if I can prove um if I can produ whatever prove that your product I'm just gonna use the word that it's so good that it's addictive, um almost any product that's really successful could fall under this rubric.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean they'll say that the so the consequence of being addicted to social media is much different than the consequence of being addicted to vacuuming my rug with my vacuum cleaner, right?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's another product that I love, but so the consequence is it it carries a heavier weight, right?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: But so there's also a heavy weight of ultra-processed foods, you know.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: We heard Mike Tyson talk about how he lost family members who died from overconsuming ultra-processed foods.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a heavy weight there, but I I do think that we're heavy weight there.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm so funny, I don't even realize it when I say it.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: You're such a clever speech, I tell and it just came right out.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so so I do think that you know, you and I run counter to culture in so many different areas, and you know, the I think that the more topics that we discuss on this podcast, the more we're realizing just how counter we are in so many ways, not just the food.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I would suspect that a lot of our listeners are as well, because it is this foundational mindset.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll tell you, Joel, so the culture is going in a different direction, and it may just speed up because did you hear how now Trump wants to make America AI ready?
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yep, that's their new initiative.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: So Trump wants to encourage, he wants everyone to be AI literate, to take advantage of an AI-driven economy, launch that new initiative where this is, um, I think this is under the U.S.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Secretary of Labor.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: They have a free AI literacy course to give you basic skills in AI.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so they're really trying to push this through.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, um in schools in the US, math and reading scores tanked.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: They tanked after schools ditched textbooks for screen, and people are saying that now they're being pushed to use AI as well.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that could even worsen what they're calling brain rot, right?
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because AI does the critical thinking for them.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: AI can write for them.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's there's no need for them to even write reports anymore.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: AI can do it.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they're saying that so it's been 25 years since the educational technology initiatives put laptops um at the fingers of school kids, and this next generation has now turned to AI.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Joel, it's gotten so bad that even the Pope has come out and imploring priests to stop writing their sermons using Chat GPT.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, priests, priests are now using Chat GPT.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the New York Post reported that AI robots are moving in with lonely elderly New Yorkers and keeping them company.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it so AI is growing so fast that SpaceX has said they're gonna put a million orbiting AI data centers in space because it's cooler in space, right?
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: So astronomers are worried that it's gonna impact their ability to uh to observe the skies and you know ruin astronomy.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm just worried about as well, there's just having those EMFs in there and things orbiting our solar system.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just it's crazy.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was I was up in uh Illinois recently at a conference and had a had a discussion with a couple of um high-profile engineers that said they were trying to figure out how to make how to uh make submersible data centers in the Great Lakes, Lake Michigan, Lake Erie, um Lake Huron, because it takes so much water to cool.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you could have a submersible data center that would that would rise at the shift change so people could get off and you know go to their cars, and then the nude crew would come in and then it would submerge in the water, then that would keep it cool.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: But that's exactly why why space is because it's whatever minus 100 degrees Fahrenheit or something.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh really cold up there, and it takes I read this that it takes it takes um who three quarts of water, three quarts of water to cool an AI brain enough to send one email.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, one email costs three um three quarts of water to cool the machinery to generate one email.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, just that's crazy.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: It is just just think about that.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Think about that.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's um yeah, it's beyond the pale.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: And now uh Elon Musk has announced that in April um Cyber Cyber Taxi is gonna start in production.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: They've already they've already produced some prototypes, so it's gonna be in full production here soon.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: And um this is a car, there's no steering wheel, no brakes, no accelerator, no gear shift, no side mirrors, nothing.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's all completely autonomous.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: So if there's a problem, you can't jump in to try to help.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, you you can't you can't intervene.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: And um and what they're what they're talking about is launching a direct um a direct competitor to Uber and Lyft that will be way, way cheaper because there's no driver that has to be paid.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: And he's saying these cars will be under$30,000, and you never have to you just get in it and tell it where you want to go, and it just takes you.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, you can see the allure, right?
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: If if you're not a principal to worry about, I mean, how great would that be?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's like your own personal chauffeur that you don't have to pay, you know.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you could sleep on your way to work or home from work, or you know, read a book or or whatever.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and you know, most people are saying that this will actually reduce traffic accidents because there won't be such a thing as uh as as drowsiness, you know.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so push through under the guise of safety.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: Wherever heard that before.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then and and so then then so then there's a wreck.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: Who's responsible for the wreck?
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, again, there's no there's no blame, there's no nobody to nobody to um take responsibility.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think in our culture, our blameless culture, we would then turn around and sue Elon Musk, right?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because he created the product.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's his fault.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's his fault that I wanted to not have to drive myself, so I bought that car.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, yeah, and that and that that's where I I appreciate that a lot, Cena, because that's that that's philosophically where this finally goes.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: Is is when you start down this I'm not responsible for path, you made me do it.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: It it it completely changes your view of decision making.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and this is one reason why I think um I kind of came up with a term a few weeks ago, I call it um um decision deficit syndrome.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: We have decision deficit syndrome because as a culture, we're trying to eliminate personal decision making.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: So our decision-making muscle becomes lethargic, and then when our when our decision-making muscle atrophies, then we blame somebody else for the fact that we have to sit in a decision wheelchair and they got to push us around.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and then we blame them for where they're taking us because we didn't want to make a decision.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's where this stuff goes philosophically.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so but the problem is, you know, here's here's this, you know, here's this poor kid on the, you know, in the in the dock at the court hearing, and your heart breaks for this broken person, you know, who's or or the suicide or whatever it is.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're it's it's a it's a heartbreaking story.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so our our our sympathy is naturally gravitates to the to the underdog, to the one that that has suffered.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's our natural human instinct to to take the side of the sufferer.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: But you but but as an adult, as an adult, you have to realize that if it's a poor decision, self inflected, self inflicted suffering, maturity demands.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: That I not just bleeding heart roll over and say, well, yeah, um it's all somebody else's fault.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think too, on a more like uh personal note, that most that we can relate to is we're seeing those trickle down into one-on-one relationships, you know, in with friends, with family, like local communities, where at least I'm seeing it more and more, and I'm hearing about it from others, that it's becoming even more difficult to be in community with people because they're not wanting to take person, uh, you know, personal responsibility.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: And when they're shifting to that mindset of blaming other people, something may happen in that relationship to call you know, miscommunication or whatnot.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: And even if it's their fault, they're going to take that victim stance and blame you, right?
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I think it's a you know, at a more intimate level, it is eroding our ability to have these meaningful connections and relationships, you know, because it it does take you have to take responsibility for, you know, in relationships and compromise and learn to work through things.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not a culture that we're supporting at this point, right?
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and and and it speaks to offense, you know, that the colleges now have safe places, safe conversations.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: You can't have a yeah, you can't have a disruptive conversation because it might it'll affect my emotions, you know, uh when we have a difficult conversation.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, but I mean, but that's the that's the that's the fuel of growth.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's the fuel of personal, you know, um uh maturity and growth is to is to have discussions that push our you know, push our prejudices and push our um our assumptions.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: That that's where that's where that growth comes.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it'll be interesting to see where these cases take us and where they go, but I'm with you.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think the more that we look at this and hear it, the more it it is not um, it's not a good place where this is going.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: And and as as as much as my heart breaks for the suffering, uh, I mean, I get it, all right.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: If I was a parent with a child that was having this or one that committed suicide because, you know, um social media let them into it, um, I would be devastated as well.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: But um but but we have to look at the overall the the whole context of the picture and realize that it's not just um it's not you don't get justice, you don't get justice by absolving responsibility.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I mean exactly right.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, there may start becoming some pushback, like Silicon Valley right now is saying that AI is in a bubble, like they're actually predicting it it's it's gonna burst.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: And one reason is because you know, AI was supposed to make work easier, like that's what they said, but it's it's often making work harder.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, those are that are using AI tools at work, um, 23% of them in this study said that their workload actually increased.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: And 26% said that it put them under more pressure, even though AI was supposed to make their lives easier, because see, now that AI can do more things for them, do things faster, the company is expecting more output from them.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: So the workload's actually increased.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um, this has actually happened to Donnie.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he's working for a company that's now doing AI, and they told them flat out that they expect them to do more work output and whatever, and um, that by the end of the year, the position is gonna be gone.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so AI is gonna replace his job.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, and this is happening in many, many different areas where jobs are being replaced.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's actually no universal base income that's being talked about.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is this what we're gonna have to go toward?
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because AI is taking all the jobs.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so, in response, some states like New York, they're actually looking at telling um AI which jobs it can take.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: So they're looking to pass legislation to regulate the use of AI so it can't take all these jobs.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, uh the military has moved into AI.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: The Pentagon is adopting the Palantir AI platform.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's the largest AI company.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it's now part of the military as part of their core US military system.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it locks in the long-term use of Palantir's weapons targeting technology across the US military.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they have a Palantir has a Maven smart system that will provide war fighters with the latest tools necessary.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: And Google is providing Pentagon with AI agents for unclassified work to automate those routine jobs.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: So there's job replacements there um going to be happening at the Pentagon.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the um the head of um Palantir, I saw an interview with him, and you know, he they're talking about how there's all these job losses now.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um and he said, well, you need to uh basically do the blue-collar jobs because the um and the instead of the white-collar jobs, and that these blue-collar jobs are going to be the major voting power moving forward.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: And would ask, like, well, are you upset about what's happening?
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you're part of this, you're part of people losing their jobs, you know.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Well, if we don't do it, our adversaries will do it.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, in working with the military, that they're gonna quote, scare enemies and on occasion kill them.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, fully admitting, we're using this tech, this AI technology, you know, going and kill the enemy.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I'm not saying I'm opposed to that.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I guess I'd rather them use AI, drones, and robots than humans, right?
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: Going into the war, but it's just like, oh my goodness, it's like a bad Hollywood movie, you know.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Terminator, Terminator, we're we're we're there, we're there.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yes, yeah.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: But so some people are wondering with with Trump's new initiative of make America AI ready and using AI, you know, in the military, are they trying to prevent the bubble from popping?
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like in and I have no idea, but that's that's what some are saying.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know either.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: I know one thing, all these guys losing their job.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if they want to become a plumber, electrician, welder, um you know, uh uh construction masonry.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I basically every you know uh everything like you said, that that that requires, you know, um physical labor and blisters on your hands, um that's what AI is not gonna do.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: AI is not gonna but then eventually that that market will eventually get saturated though.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like if enough people lose their jobs going and have to go to or not choosing to go to the blue-collar workers, that's gonna be saturated at some point too.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's like this conundrum.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: Listen, technology has never reduced employment, ever, ever.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: Technology has never done it.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I I I think all the hype about AI taking jobs, yes, it's gonna take a lot of jobs, but there's gonna create a lot of jobs too.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and so I I just I've watched throughout my life all this.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's gonna destroy these.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, you know, when they when they I mean computers were gonna take over jobs, you know, when computers came in, it's gonna be a paperless society.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's not gonna be any paper.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: We're losing, we're using twice as much paper now as we did 50 years ago because it because computers make it so easy to crank out paper.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Hewlett-Packard, you know, uh allowed us to use train car loads of paper.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, so you know, I I've watched this this that it thing's gonna, it's all gonna collapse.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I I don't believe that aspect of it.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I I think I think it creates a whole nother set of of things.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um but great topic, very, very interesting, and um in general, we're a we're a free market um personal responsibility deal, and um that runs counter to what these juries are awarding, but um courtrooms are not always just and they're not all they're not always philosophically um correct.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, question for the week how do you regulate your child's social media?
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: How's that for a question?
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: How do you regulate your child's social media?
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: I like it.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: We will maybe I can get some ideas.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I I I think it'd be good to share.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, because I'm sure there are creative ways out there to both you know incentivize for good, punish for bad, but you know, there's there's all these different sides of the coin, you know, for um for monitoring it.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I I I think I think the I think the cat is out of the bag that that you know eight hours a day for a 10-year-old on social media is not healthy.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: I I I can't imagine anybody, well, except somebody at Meta, um, saying that that's healthy, okay?
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think I think there's a pretty broad base to to agree with there.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and whether or not you agree with Cena and I on on disagreement on this on this um case, on these cases, uh, I think we I think we can agree that social media can be addictive, it can be uh mentally and emotionally hurtful, especially for little kids.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: And um I think it's worth wrestling with how do you how do you control that in your kids?
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, Joel, if I can, I just had this thought.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know how Trump uh handed down that executive order that glyphosate is now part of the national defense, so it's untouchable.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering if there's if so many lawsuits are gonna come forward against social media and potentially AI that like that will now be declared part of national defense because as I just reported, AI is you know, now they said, you know, part of the core platform, core of the US military system.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: So is this setting it up that we now won't be able to have legal recourse against the companies?
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that that's very, very possible.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh interesting point.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, everybody, thanks for joining us with another for another episode of Beyond Labels.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: We are always privileged and honored that you invest your time with us.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: We hope it's um it stimulates some table conversation around your dinner table tonight.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: This would be a great, great, wouldn't it?
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_00: A great topic for your family to discuss around a dinner table.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh does anybody feel like your social media is out of control?
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, is your social media helping you emotionally, hurting you?
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: Would you like to limit it?
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: And those kinds of discussions, that would make a great um prime the pump dinner conversation starter around your uh healthy food dinner uh prepared in home um uh today.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining us.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: We look forward to being with you again next week.