Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / AI Is Making Real Relationships Feel Harder

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AI Is Making Real Relationships Feel Harder · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's a doctor's Desk episode of The Happy Family's podcast today,
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  Speaker 1: and we're looking at Ai sicker Fancy do you like
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  Speaker 1: talking to AI more than real people? Because AI is
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  Speaker 1: just so kind to you? Oh and dad brain, it's
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: a real thing. There's a brand new book out by
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Professor Darby Saxby, all about dad brains. Did you know
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: that becoming a dad is very very good for your brain,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: for your cognition, for your social life. In fact, across
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: the board, dads are doing better when they're well when
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  Speaker 1: they're dad's. Tell you more about that in our Doctor's
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  Speaker 1: Desk episode of the pod. It's right after this. Hello.
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  Speaker 1: This is The Happy Family's podcast where you get real
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  Speaker 1: parenting solutions every single day. It's Australia's most downloaded parenting
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  Speaker 1: podcast where Justin and Kylie Colson we're the parents of
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  Speaker 1: six kids. And today a doctor's Desk episode where we
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  Speaker 1: unpack the latest research that applies to parents and throw
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  Speaker 1: it your way so that you can make your family happier.
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  Speaker 2: Our first story today is all about sycophantic AI and
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  Speaker 2: I have no idea what you're talking about.
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  Speaker 1: So a sick a fan is other names or synonyms
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  Speaker 1: for a sick epant would be like a toady, a bootlecker,
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  Speaker 1: a total suck up, a yes man, a brown noser.
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  Speaker 1: That's what a sicker fan is. A sick a fan
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  Speaker 1: is somebody who always agrees with you, gives you fake praise,
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  Speaker 1: really hoping, really hoping that you're going to like them
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  Speaker 1: because they're always so nice to you. And AI is sycophantic.
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  Speaker 1: AI is a total suck up. Have you noticed that
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  Speaker 1: about AI? Yeah, a brand new study, just publish it,
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  Speaker 1: you love, Well, you're not the only one. A brand
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  Speaker 1: new study that has just been published. And I think
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  Speaker 1: this is important because our kids are using AI and
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  Speaker 1: it impacts their relationships in the real world. The research
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  Speaker 1: paper was called sycophantic AI makes human interaction feel more
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  Speaker 1: effortful and less satisfying over time.
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  Speaker 2: Well how did they figure that out? So, because it's
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  Speaker 2: interesting because while I really appreciate using AI in no way,
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  Speaker 2: shape or form, does it ever leave me feeling like
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  Speaker 2: I would rather talk to it than a friend or
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  Speaker 2: have a interpersonal relationship with someone like it just doesn't.
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  Speaker 1: That's because your gen X, so our young our younger
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  Speaker 1: generations are struggling with you.
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  Speaker 2: So you're saying because I'm old.
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  Speaker 1: Well, no, I said to gen X, you can You're
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  Speaker 1: at the very, very very bottom of gen X. You
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  Speaker 1: are right there at the turnover because I think it
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  Speaker 1: finishes in seventy eight, which is you right. I'm not
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  Speaker 1: allowed to say that on the podcast. Sorry, I apologize,
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  Speaker 1: I just did. So here's what these researchers did. They've
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  Speaker 1: got three thousand and seventy five participants. They're using what
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  Speaker 1: we would call a census representative sample of the population.
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  Speaker 1: In other words, they've got people from all ages and
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  Speaker 1: stages in all sorts of circumstances. So it's not just
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  Speaker 1: like a university aged cohort. They've done what we call
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  Speaker 1: a preregistered study. In fact, they did five of them.
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  Speaker 1: Preregistered studies basically mean everything's transparent out in the open
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  Speaker 1: before the study's done, so they can't kind of mind
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  Speaker 1: the data for special results then make a big deal
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  Speaker 1: about it like they've gone in with very clear hypothesies.
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  Speaker 1: They've preregistered it, and then they've discovered what they've found.
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  Speaker 1: And so here's what they've done. It's a three week study.
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  Speaker 1: Longitudinal experimental evidence. Sycophantic AI shifts how users approach their
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  Speaker 1: closest relationships. Here's what they say. In the abstract and
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  Speaker 1: I quote, we show that sycophantic AI immediately delivers get this,
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  Speaker 1: the emotional and esteem support that users typically associate with
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  Speaker 1: close friends and family. Over three weeks of such interactions,
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  Speaker 1: they say, users became nearly as likely to seek personal
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  Speaker 1: advice from sycophantic AI as from close friends and family,
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  Speaker 1: and reported lower satisfaction with their real world social interactions
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  Speaker 1: last sentence. When given a choice among AI response styles,
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  Speaker 1: a majority preferred sycophantic AI not for the quality of
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  Speaker 1: its advice, but because it made them feel most understood.
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  Speaker 2: It's affirming, correct, whatever you're experiencing, it's going to affirm you.
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  Speaker 1: And you will have found this. I've found it when
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  Speaker 1: I'm using AI. It's constantly letting you know that you're
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  Speaker 1: on the right track, that you're thinking is good. If
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  Speaker 1: you ever point out something that you disagree with, it says, oh,
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  Speaker 1: you're so right, let me recalibrate myself and respond again
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  Speaker 1: like it is. It's sycophantic. It's a book, but you
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  Speaker 1: love it.
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  Speaker 2: If everybody did that, as in everybody like when.
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  Speaker 1: If everybody's sucked up to you?
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  Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no, no no. But when you
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  Speaker 2: recognize that you've done something wrong and somebody points it out,
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  Speaker 2: if everyone just went, you're right, I should have done X,
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  Speaker 2: Y and Z, life would be so much better.
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  Speaker 1: Well, it'd be nice if people are a little more
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  Speaker 1: humble and open to feedback. I agree with that, but
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  Speaker 1: we actually also need to have people who we bump
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  Speaker 1: up against, who might be a bit more abrasive and
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  Speaker 1: cause us to rethink our approach, like there's real benefit
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  Speaker 1: and having that tension and having that friction in relationships
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  Speaker 1: because it causes us to do you live in our house,
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  Speaker 1: be mindful of others. Yes, it's exhausting. I don't need
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  Speaker 1: any more friction in my life anyway. I want to
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  Speaker 1: talk more about this after the break because our kids
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  Speaker 1: are using it and they're so averse to friction. They're
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  Speaker 1: so averse attention that I'm concerned if they use AI
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  Speaker 1: too much, they won't learn how to navigate people who
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  Speaker 1: are that little bit more tricky. That's next, we're back
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  Speaker 1: as the Happy Families podcast. I'm concerned about our kids
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  Speaker 1: becoming too involved with AI because it's so sycophantic, because
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  Speaker 1: it sucks up to them so much and it's constantly
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  Speaker 1: affirming their positions.
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  Speaker 2: Which so many conversations I'm having with friends and family
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  Speaker 2: and acquaintances about well, the challenges that are arising as
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  Speaker 2: a result of specifically their adult children using AI as
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  Speaker 2: a counseling session to help them navigate whatever family challenges
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  Speaker 2: are going on. And the challenge that we have with
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  Speaker 2: that is it's so affirming of one person's situation, because
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  Speaker 2: if the other person in the dialogue was to get
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  Speaker 2: on to AI and go through the same process, that
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  Speaker 2: would be affirmed as well. So we end up I'm
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  Speaker 2: watching so many families falling to pieces because there is
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  Speaker 2: no give and take with AI. It's all about affirming
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  Speaker 2: whoever is the one who's asking the questions, and it's
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  Speaker 2: devastating to watch.
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  Speaker 1: I'm genuinely concerned about it. I've seen it happen in
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  Speaker 1: some people who I know, where the AI is so affirming,
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  Speaker 1: as you've just said that the relationships are falling down
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  Speaker 1: because they can't understand why other people can't understand them,
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  Speaker 1: why the AI understands them. Yeah, and the breakdown is significant.
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  Speaker 1: So what do we do about it? Well, I think
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  Speaker 1: that it's really important that we talked about children about
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  Speaker 1: this brand new would that you've learned today quietly about sycophancy,
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  Speaker 1: what it is that AI is doing, why it feels
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  Speaker 1: so affirming, And there are two different approaches here. The
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  Speaker 1: first is that we talk to them and help them
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  Speaker 1: to know that in the real world that's not how
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  Speaker 1: things are. And if people are constantly being sycophantic, then
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  Speaker 1: we tend to be quite wary of them. But the
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  Speaker 1: second thing that we could also do is we could
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  Speaker 1: have a conversation about how if we feel so validated,
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  Speaker 1: if we feel so connected, if we really do appreciate
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  Speaker 1: the AI's way of speaking to us, maybe we can
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  Speaker 1: try and speak a little bit more kindly, a little
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  Speaker 1: bit more supportively to people in our own home, Like
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  Speaker 1: when somebody comes to us and says something, Rather than
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  Speaker 1: pushing back straight away, we can say, let me think
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  Speaker 1: about that for a sec because my inclination is to
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  Speaker 1: push against what you've said. I'm sorry, I got that,
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  Speaker 1: but maybe you've got that right. That's right, Thanks for
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  Speaker 1: pushing back. I really appreciate your highlighting the error of
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  Speaker 1: my ways. And yet as much as we're mocking that
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  Speaker 1: right now when that happens in real life, but that's
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  Speaker 1: what I'm saying. It feels really nice. Yeah, yeah, And
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  Speaker 1: what would that do to improve the quality of your
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  Speaker 1: relationships at home? I think, like I genuinely think that
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  Speaker 1: there's something in that for us to consider.
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  Speaker 2: Well, the challenge is we're looking outward whenever we're using it.
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  Speaker 2: Generally speaking, it's about trying to understand someone else's behavior
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  Speaker 2: and how it's impacting us.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I would go further, I would say it's about
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  Speaker 1: justifying our behavior in relation to that other person and
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  Speaker 1: making them look bad.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Like one of the ones that I'm thinking of, there's
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  Speaker 1: a person at war with their parents and they're using
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  Speaker 1: AI as a therapist and getting AI to agree with
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  Speaker 1: them that their parents are narcissistic and selfish and judgmental
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  Speaker 1: and all these things. And yet and I look at
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  Speaker 1: this scenario, I'm kind of like, I think that the
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  Speaker 1: person who's using AI this way is actually a little
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  Speaker 1: bit more of that than the parents are. But the
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  Speaker 1: AI is so affirming, it's so reassuring, it's so sycophantic.
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  Speaker 1: That there's this gigantic blind spot, there's a lack of
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  Speaker 1: self awareness and the AI, I was going to say,
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  Speaker 1: it exploits it I don't know if that's the right
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  Speaker 1: world or not, but certainly it becomes a disadvantage for
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  Speaker 1: the AI user and they can't engage in a healthy
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  Speaker 1: way in a relationship with their parents because now they
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  Speaker 1: can only see things through the filter that they already
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  Speaker 1: had that the AI has reinforced.
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  Speaker 2: And here's the crazy thing. We talk about this a
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  Speaker 2: lot on the podcast. In our Home there's this concept,
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  Speaker 2: this vicious circle that we find ourselves and when there's tension,
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  Speaker 2: it's not just one person. There are two people in
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  Speaker 2: this vicious circle, and it doesn't change until one person
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  Speaker 2: decides to stop. And it's that simple. We can't change
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  Speaker 2: other people can't We can't fix them. It's not our
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  Speaker 2: job to even try. Our job is to make sure
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  Speaker 2: that we are being loving and kind, respectful human beings
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  Speaker 2: who can treat others just eat with goodness.
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  Speaker 1: Well, the data are in. The data are in the data?
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  Speaker 1: Is it not? The data are in?
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  Speaker 2: The data are in.
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  Speaker 1: That's right, because data is more than Yeah, the data
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  Speaker 1: are in. Sycophantic AI is making our human interactions harder
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  Speaker 1: and less satisfying. Is that do you think?
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  Speaker 2: I know you want to finish, but I think it's
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  Speaker 2: because we've stopped thinking for ourselves.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, the cognitive offloading. Yeah, it's just easy to get
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  Speaker 1: somebody else to affirm us and tell us what to do.
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  Speaker 2: And you know, when text messaging came, everybody stopped phone
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  Speaker 2: calls and everyone wants to text, and AI has now
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  Speaker 2: taken away the next level of communication. We actually I've.
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  Speaker 1: Bother people because when I get a text message, I
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  Speaker 1: usually just bring the person. I'm like, oh, they're on
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  Speaker 1: the phone, I can call them right now, and they're like, oh,
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  Speaker 1: I was just texting, and I'm like, yeah, I know,
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  Speaker 1: but it'sn't it better to talk to people? And they're
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  Speaker 1: kind of like, you're a little bit weird, but well
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  Speaker 1: I've got you. Yeah, sure, and then we get to
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  Speaker 1: have a it's just nicer to talk to people. Talk
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  Speaker 1: to people. Okay. Parenting advice is to reminding parents and
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: kids are talking. Is good. We really hope you enjoyed
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: today's Doctor's Desk episode. A nice quick one, but I
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: think that it's a really important discussion that we need
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: to have. He's Father's Day on the weekend, so tomorrow's
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: little beout it. Tomorrow We're going to check in on
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: what Father's Day is looking like in the Coolsoon Home.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: Plus a brand new book that's just come out highlighting
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: that if you are a dad, it could actually be
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: really really good for your health. So that's it for today.
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  Speaker 1: Audio and sound engineering for the Happy Families podcast by
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Mim Hammonds looks after admin
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: and other support. If you would like more info to
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: make family happier, you'll find us on our socials at
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: Facebook and Instagram, or at happy families dot com dot
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: a