Latest / The Bechdel Cast / The Accused with Sarah Marshall

Transcript

The Accused with Sarah Marshall · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: changing it with the Bechdelcast.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: Caitlin Durante.
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: And my name is Jamie Loftus. And this is the
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: using the Bechdel test as a jumping off point for discussion.
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: But we are looking at movies through an intersectional feminist lens.
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: We have an intense episode today, so I just want
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: to mark it at the top of... Just some trigger
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: warnings before we even get into the Bechdel test. We're
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: talking about The Accused today. It's a movie from 1988
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: that at least, well, we'll talk about it. I don't
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: think it's really talked about very much now.
• 0:57
  Speaker 4: And I find it interesting.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: But it is a movie that directly covers the trial.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: and fallout and depiction of a very brutal rape. So
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: if you are not in a place to be hearing
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: about that today, please be advised. That's what we're getting
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: into as well as I'm sure inevitably some talk about
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: the Cornell case, which is sort of why we're choosing
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: to cover this movie when we're choosing to cover it.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: So yeah, unpleasant. I don't know about you two, but
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: I feel sick already.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I do not feel good.
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: So if you are in a place to deal with
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: topics like that and you can find it cathartic, maybe
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: this is the episode for you. And yeah, hope you
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: get something out of it.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: Anyways, let's get into, before we can get into the
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: horrors of the world, Caitlin.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: What's the Bechdel test?
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: I forget.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you. It's a mediometric created by a friend
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: of the show, Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace test.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: It is a media metric that has many different versions
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: of it. The one that we use requires that two
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: characters of a marginalized gender have names, they speak to
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: each other, and their conversation is about something other than
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: a man. And ideally, it's a conversation that is narratively
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: meaningful and not just throwaway dialogue.
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: And thankfully, today's movie does pass it handily, so we
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: will not be harping on the Bechdel test today. Imagine
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: if it didn't. But, you know, when you see 1988
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: as the release date, you just never know. But, yes,
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: we have an incredible returning guest. Her fifth appearance, which
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: is the jacket tier of Bechdel cast guests. Where we
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: tell you we're going to get you a jacket and
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: then we don't.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: And then we never do.
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: And then we don't. You are going to get me
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: a jacket. I'm going to come to your house and
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: find one I like.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, sure.
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. You can also. I guess we didn't get
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: specific about what the jacket was. I think we promised
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: Kenise a specific jacket that never materialized. But you could just, yeah,
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: come grab a jacket.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Go shopping in my closet.
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: You deserve it, girly. It's the amazing Sarah Marshall, a
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: host of your.
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: Wrong about it.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, hello.
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: Amongst myriad other wonderful people. She's an incredible writer. And
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: the first person, I mean, I guess this is like,
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: I don't know. Let me know how you feel about
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: this distinction. When we decided to do this episode, you
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: were the first person I thought of. I was like,
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: I just, I want to talk to Sarah about this movie.
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: It like so overlaps with so much of what you
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: talk about on You're Wrong About. And I also just
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: love talking to you. I was like, we have to
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: choose a guest who we feel safe with.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: And that means so much to me. And I do,
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: you know, I, I, yeah, I want to have that
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: be my distinction here that we all feel all as
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: comfortable as possible today here together, because certainly I have
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: no expertise here except, except I guess from like the
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: sort of The pattern of talking on my show about
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: various women who had to defend their right to exist
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: in the media and had the media descend on them
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: in a huge way. Yes. And this is one of
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: those stories, you know, in a story from the 80s
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: and also one that as as you're saying, I think
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: this case and this movie, you know, were tremendously visible before.
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: And the times that they happened and that we haven't
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: returned to very much, which is interesting.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: I was not familiar with either this movie prior to
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: us kind of deciding to cover it, nor the actual
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: case that this movie is based on. Maybe if I
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: was a little older and more alive in the 80s
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: and not an infant when this was all happening, or
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: I guess the case took place before I even existed.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: So maybe if the timeline was different, I would be
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: more aware of it. But yeah, I was not familiar
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: at all.
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: It's also interesting to me to compare this, the case
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: that inspired this movie to also something like the William
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: Kennedy Smith trial, which was a rape trial that people
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: were absolutely riveted by at the time that it was happening.
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: And it also raised questions of how much and whether
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: to identify the victim. And, or, you know, if we
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: want to be legalistic, I guess the alleged victim in
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: a trial like this, that was getting so much media attention.
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: And again, that's like a story that people don't reminisce
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: about and have kind of taken out of maybe the
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: collective memory of a period in an interesting way. Cause
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: you have something like the OJ Simpson trial and no
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: one really ever really forgot about that one. Um, but
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: stories like this, you know, seem to have, um, yeah,
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: been maybe a little bit repressed and also, you know,
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: Jodie Foster won an Oscar for this movie.
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: And that's, I know that that was like one of
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: the many reasons that I was like, you know, even
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: if it's not a movie we talk about very frequently,
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: I feel like I'm at least, you know, most Oscar
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: like winning movies like that. I am more aware of
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: than I was aware of this movie. So I guess
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: for listeners and for.
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: For Caitlin and Sarah. I'm like, there's so much we
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: could talk about in this episode. I'm, I think, correctly
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: assuming all of our listeners are aware of and to
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: some extent, following the Cornell case. I don't think I
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: want to get into that one specifically, but I think
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: that the parallels are very clear. For sure. Between, I mean,
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: I think that that's part of I don't know. Yeah,
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: I guess I just wanted to do a vibe check
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: at the top. Because I mean, I'm assuming I'm very
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: much not alone here. I've been having a really horrible
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: time recently with, I mean, but in a new way,
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: I guess. And I'm curious if this like resonates where
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: this is, unfortunately, the Cornell case is so familiar and
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: so familiar that It is a story we have heard
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: massively publicized within the history of this podcast. I've been
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: thinking so much recently about, obviously because we're about to
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: go on our 10-year anniversary tour, and how this moment
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: shares very grim similarities to the Me Too movement, but
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, and we've talked at length at the shortcomings
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: of that movement, which bear a lot of similarity to
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: the shortcomings of most American feminist movements. But I think
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: I did feel more hopeful and more energized at that
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: time that that was going somewhere and that. the conversations
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: that we would be having in 2026 would not feel
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: even worse than the ones we were having in 2017.
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: And amongst other like personal stuff, campus rape in particular.
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: But yeah, I don't know.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Vibe checking. I know we're all doing bad, but
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: I'm just this particular kind of like we've been here before.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: So historically recently and I feel worse.
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: Can I tell you what it feels like to me?
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: And I ironically, I am using a metaphor that involves
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: a movie that had unsafe and traumatic working conditions for
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: a woman. Mm hmm. The part in the Blair Witch
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: Project where things have started to really get bad and
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: they've been hiking for like 15 hours and they realize
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: at the end of the day that they have come
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: back to the same log over the same creek that
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: they were at that morning. And it's just like the
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: exhaustion and the fear and the feeling of having like
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: taken away from you even the catharsis of having made
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: one day's progress.
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: That's a very apt metaphor.
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: And you're like, I gave you back the map, Heather.
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay. Sarah's genius mode. We're 10 minutes in and
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: Sarah's already gone genius mode.
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: But it is like, but I bet, but you know
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: that I feel like I've been, I guess watch that
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: movie again. Cause it's, you know, October and that's the,
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: you have to watch the Blair witch project and, and, and,
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: and this house and, and that, so that feeling of like,
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: exhaustion is like I think yeah what to me what
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: comes to mind right where it's like oh my god
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: like was all of that so that we could end
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: up back in the exact same place yeah I I.
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: Guess luckily and unluckily a way in to talk about
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: most of the things I've been feeling about the Cornell
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: case through the lens of the accused because so little
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: has changed not just in the way that rape calls
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: is so pervasive, but in the way that media presents
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: rape culture, because we always have to have a man
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: who is redeemable and we always have to, you know,
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: I've felt so frustrated by, and I know that there
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: is value to this and, and I am, you know,
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: it's impossible to not bring your own shit to the table,
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: but it's, how quickly we jumped to like, we need
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: to talk about men. You know, it's like, no, I
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: don't want, no. They're like, we need to figure out how,
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: you know, it's again, once again on, I think what's
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: really been kind of like lighting me up recently is
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: because this is like not the first wave of this
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: discourse that has happened on social media also specifically. is
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: that I'm seeing stories that I remember hearing and feeling,
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: you know, like from, from peers, from, you know, public figures,
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: from whomever, the stories I remember hearing 10 years ago,
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: seeing again, repackaged and reposted. And it like, I don't know,
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: something about that really broke me because I, it makes
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: me feel so much for victims, survivors, whatever your chosen
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: language is that like we're, Being asked to once again, like,
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: open the trauma suitcase... and like doll it up in
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: whatever way is most algorithmically friendly and be like, hey,
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: do you give a fuck this time? And the answer
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: is always no. I mean, and then the other side
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: of that is, you know, you find community, you find like,
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's more complicated than that. But I don't know.
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: Well, I think watching, I mean, you know, not to
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: get too into the plot, but I feel like the
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: sort of one of the overwhelming feelings I had watching
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: it was the sort of horror of, as we've been
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: talking about, sort of being now where we were then,
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: where we have been for much of recorded history, where
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: if a man or in this case, a group of
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: men rapes you and uses your body as a something
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: that they're bonding over by dehumanizing you then you have
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: to go prove to another group of men that it
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: happened right that the legal system is basically just like
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: another group of guys in a bigger building and how
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: and how much that you know not not totally hasn't changed,
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: but has sort of changed and then changed back multiple
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: times and how we keep coming back to this bedrock
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: and we're, we're here now again.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: Well, I guess unless there's other, we can just get
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: into our history with the, with the movie. Had either
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: of you seen it before?
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: Never saw it. Was not familiar with it.
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: Just watched it for the first time a couple of
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: days ago.
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: I had seen bits of it on TV. Weirdly, my
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: greatest familiarity with this movie was always the fact that
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: it was the subject of a chapter of Carol Clover's book, Men,
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: Women and Chainsaws, which was like the first scholarly book
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: on slasher movies or one of the very first. And
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: it was a chapter contrasting this with I Spit on
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: Your Grave. Interesting.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: Oh, we should cover that too. Yeah.
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: Which is also very hard to watch and has a
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: remake that makes it, I think, less hard to watch,
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: but also less Day of the Woman-ish. But anyway, but
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: that's a whole other story. But no, I'd also never
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: seen this whole movie. And also there is, you know,
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: a very long, explicit rape scene in it and i
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: had i think i i realized while watching it to
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: come on today that i had been avoiding it because
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: i because i knew about that part and i didn't
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: want to watch it and um yeah i'm glad to
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: have seen it and then get to talk to both
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: of you about it.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah thank you for being willing to have this conversation
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: with us seriously jamie what about you had you were
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: you familiar with it the movie.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: I was aware of it, but I hadn't seen it.
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: I think like, yeah, avoiding it kind of for similar reasons,
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: but I was glad that we ended up deciding to
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: do this episode, even though it feels so all over
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: the place, but like, I I'm glad we ended up
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: deciding to do it because I do feel like movies
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: like this, you know, for better, for worse. And I
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: think this movie is generally for better that like you
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: get a, you, you can get a feel of like
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: how far culture was willing to, deal with this topic
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: and stories like this in a given historical moment. Um, yeah,
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I, I was, I guess, pleasantly surprised
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: at how thoughtful it was, even though there's obviously like
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: a lot of 1988 in there, but I was more
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: familiar with the, and we'll, we'll talk about this after
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: we talk about the movie. Um, but I was more
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: familiar with the case that inspired this with a woman
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: named Cheryl Arrujo, who, um, was not even alive when
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: this movie came out, which we can talk about. Um,
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: but because that happened like a decade before I was born,
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: but it happened near where I grew up. And so,
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: I don't recall, like it wasn't like a story I
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: was intimately familiar with growing up, but I do, I
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: recognize her name. I certainly recognized, um, we were talking about,
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: and we will talk about, there is an episode on,
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: I think a pretty good Netflix, um, docuseries from a
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: couple of years ago called trial by media.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: That it was like so intimately familiar that I was like, Oh,
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: I know some of the ladies in this movie. So
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: I was familiar with the story and I'm interested to
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: also talk about like what elements from that story they
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: brought to this film and what they kind of left.
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: Because there's just so many ways to come at this.
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: But anyways, I generally was I'm very glad that this
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: movie exists and. it seems like it was tremendously difficult
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: to get made and was made unshockingly because of there
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: being women executives fighting for it, which is unfortunately something
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: that we still, I'm like with this terrifying super merger happening,
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: I'm like, I wonder if women will be allowed to
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: make creative decisions anymore. We'll see.
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: Maybe they'll replace women with like a computer that analyzes
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: women and then tells men what women will watch.
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: It's going to be awesome, dude.
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: It'll be called... What will it be named? Oh, my gosh.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: What's the fake AI actress that whoever loser made up?
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: Tilly.
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: Tilly Norwood or something. Yeah.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: Ugh.
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: Tilly tilly's gonna go work for management tilly but i
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: imagine her is just like the crushinator from futurama huge.
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: Feminist win as tilly norwood is promoted to head of
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: development at super paramount yeah exactly yeah paramount brothers brothers
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: we're laughing but that is gonna be like a variety
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: headline in the next eight months I don't think, there
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: are so many variety headlines that have broken me, but
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: I don't think that there's any, this is just, okay,
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: this is an aside, but maybe we need to, but
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: there's never been an industry trade headline that's made me
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: laugh harder than UTA signs Parmesan cheese. What? Do you
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: remember that? No.
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: How did this happen?
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: And not just because I got dropped by UTA not
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: a year before, and then they signed Parmesan cheese.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: What do they, what does that mean?
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: The brand, the brand.
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: And then the body of the story is we're so
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: glad that the resources that we no longer had to
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: spend on Jamie Loftus, we could use to acquire Parmesan cheese.
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah. If you look up UTA, I think it's UTA,
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: UTA Parmesan cheese. They like represent the cheese. What about cheddar? Well,
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: You'll have, they.
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: Won't talk to me. So you, you'll have.
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: To, you'll have to ask. But like calling me like UTA.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: Hello.
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: I've got cheddar on the line.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: I still don't.
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: He's not happy with his current management.
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: Well, the purpose, Caitlin, I think is to get Parmesan. Like,
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: it's like product placement. Like, we're going to get Parmesan
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: on HBO.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay. Parmigiano-Reggiano? Yeah.
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: It's like a brand. The brand.
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: Like the official Parmesan.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: It was like.
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: Like... The generic idea, the concept of Parmesan cheese? No. Okay.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: They can't do that yet.
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: But they're getting there.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: But basically, that's kind of the brand.
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: Anyways.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: Well, shout out.
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: Call Parmesan cheese's agent if you want.
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: I don't know how I feel about Parmesan now.
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: Do you think Parmesan sold out? I think so. Yeah.
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: I think I'm going to go full Pecorino now. I
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: want independent cheese. Independent cheese only.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: Well, shall we take a quick break and then.
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I fear we may be wool gathering.
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, let's collect ourselves and come back after this break.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: And we're back.
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: We're back.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: And here is the recap of the accused, once again,
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: trigger slash content warning for rape. We open on an
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: exterior shot of a bar called The Mill. After a while,
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: a woman named Sarah, played by Jodie Foster, comes running out.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: She's screaming. She's clearly traumatized. She's clutching her clothes, which
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: seem to be partly torn off We see a man
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: also come out of the bar and call 911 from
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: a payphone. saying that a woman was just raped by
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: three or so men. inside of the bar. We cut
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: to Sarah at the hospital. She's being questioned by the
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: healthcare staff. Photographs are taken of her bruised and scratched body.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: She has a pelvic exam. And then a few people
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: show up, including a woman from a rape center, a detective,
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: and a woman named Catherine, played by Kelly McGillis. She
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: is the deputy district attorney who has been assigned to
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Sarah's case.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: It's interesting to me, and we can talk about this
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: more as we go on, but we're met with a
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: series of women kind of in real time at the
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: very beginning. But we, I think, I mean, one movie
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: can only bite off so much, but I was interested,
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: and especially more culturally, learning about the Sharla Ruggia case,
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: how the Rape Crisis Center representative kind of falls into
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: the background after that.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: Almost immediately.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: We meet her before Kelly McGillis, and then we don't
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: really see her come back. And I guess fortunately, feminists
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: and feminist organizers and rape crisis counselors were a lot
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: bigger of an element in the Sharla Ruggia story. I
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: feel like the accused doesn't really... have the bandwidth or
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: chooses not to, we can talk about it. But yeah,
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: I was surprised because we meet her, like we meet
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: the examining nurse, we meet the rape crisis counselor, and
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: then we meet the lawyer and then we just kind
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: of stay with the lawyer.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: I wonder if that is because the original draft of
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: the script, and it's worth noting that this movie was
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: written by a man named Tom Topor, and directed by
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: a different man, Jonathan Kaplan.
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: Who do seem like lovely people, but yeah, this movie
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: was fought for by two women executives. And it almost
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: feels like that decision that we still see people make
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: all the time, which is like, well, it has a
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: better shot of getting made if we let men make it.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: So the original draft of the screenplay had it so
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: that the district attorney character was basically the main character
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: that the focus was on her.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: Because it's going to be Jane Fonda.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: Oh, right.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: We're right. And that the survivor of the assault was
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: going to be far less of a character. But then
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: director Jonathan Kaplan kind of insisted that the Sarah character
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: be basically as prominent of a character as the district attorney. So,
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: but I'm wondering if like some.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: That's still kind of leftover.
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, right.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: Like the absence of like, you know, the rape crisis
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: center staff and things like that. I think it's probably
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: because of that.
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: I agree.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Anyway, so Sarah is examined at the hospital. She meets
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: the Catherine, district attorney character. That same night, Catherine and
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: the detective take Sarah back to the mill, the bar,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: to see if the men who raped her are still
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: there so that she can potentially ID them. Sarah reluctantly
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: agrees to this, but she goes and she identifies two
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: men who are still there. Catherine then drops Sarah off
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: at home. She lives with her boyfriend, Larry, who seems
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: like a piece of shit. He does not know how
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: to be supportive of Sarah, and neither does her mom,
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: who Sarah calls. So we get a sense that she
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: does not have a very good support system.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I like how that, I mean, we don't spend
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: a ton of time with Sarah's support system or lack
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: thereof but I like that the movie does go out
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: of its way to not just make her one dimensional
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: in that sense and that like she makes efforts to
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: and like as with so many people especially the further
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: back in time you go it's like even the people
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: who might.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: Care have no idea how to support her Right.
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: And she's just like this overwhelmingly alone character over and
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: over again in the movie. And also I, I was
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: surprised by how young Jodie Foster looks in this because
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: it's just a few years before the silence of the lambs,
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: but I feel like she's still got such a baby
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: face on her. And she, she almost, she like reminds
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: me of the way she was in like freaky Friday
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: in this movie. She's still, yeah.
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: Cause she's, I guess she's, it was like 25 when
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: this was shot.
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: Um, I, I really, she's so good.
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: She's so good.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: As an actress and also for the world. Yeah.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: I agree. I just want to, I, I haven't, I
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: always have an overwhelming urge to protect any Jodie Foster character.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: Totally.
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: I just want to like, cause you know, those like
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: TikToks that are like getting up at 4am to make
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: lunch for my blue collar husband. I want to do that.
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: But for Jodie Foster.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I hope Jodie Foster, you know, I don't know.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: Jodie Foster, also queer icon. Like we just, we just
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: love to see her.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: I corresponded via email with her when I worked as
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: an unpaid intern, basically being an assistant at a literary
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: management company. They should have just hired an assistant. Yeah,
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: this was in New York. This was many, many years ago.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: And they should have just hired an assistant and paid them,
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: but instead they got unpaid interns to do that.
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: The golden age of the intern.
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true. You can't exploit them like that anymore.
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: But even though it was.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: And in turn, I still had like the responsibilities that
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: an assistant would have. And so I was instructed to
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: email Jodi Foster. I don't remember specifically about what, but
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: and she and our correspondence, as I recall, was lovely.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: Oh, she really seems unmatched.
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: She's, she's so good.
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: And this, it was interesting reading about, and I guess,
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: and for, uh, just to, because I know we, we
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: talk about in movies like this, particularly when they are
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: made by men at the top, like the first thought
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: is almost like, God, I hope that Jodie Foster was,
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: and Kelly McGillis were treated well and fairly. And from
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: everything I can gather, it does seem like this was,
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, like a very heavy, but safe, uh, And
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: thoughtful production, particularly for its time. I'm sure that there
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: would be more sort of systems in place today, as
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: well as intimacy counselors and, you know, sort of choreographing
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: things like scenes like we'll be talking about. But for
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: anyone who did like, I just want people to feel
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: haunted by that question. It seems like, because there was
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: an oral history about this movie published about 10 years
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: ago in The Hollywood Reporter. And it seems like it was,
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: you know, appropriately difficult, but not from a, like, anyone
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: felt put upon or harassed, which is.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: Glad to hear it.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: Which is proof that that's possible, despite so many people
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: in the industry claiming it's not.
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: There's no year where that needed to happen, because this
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: was shot in, like, 1987. And everyone was, you know, okay,
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: all things considered.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: So, yeah.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: It's also, I will just point out on a lighter
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: note that this is set in Washington. It was filmed
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: in Vancouver, BC, but it has the look of the
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: Pacific Northwest that feels so true and so familiar to me,
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: which is just like not really raining, overcast sky, train tracks,
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: light dusting of garbage.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: So you felt the region was represented.
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I really felt so.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Visibility matters.
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: Well, you can compare that with like, you know, Seattle
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: is depicted in The Ring where it's just like pouring
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: all the time.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: Which is good for your horror movie. Seattle isn't green.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: I think of The Ring as being a mostly green movie.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: It's so gray and green.
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: Isn't the matrix also pretty green? It's like a step
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: below the matrix.
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of like, what do they call that?
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: I don't, it's not color correcting. It's color grading. Yeah. Um,
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: they just put a green color grade over the entire
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: movie of the matrix.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: Um, Anyway, so the next day, Sarah and Catherine go
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: to the college campus because one of the rapists is
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: a college student. So they go to try to find
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: him and Sarah identifies him. He's a member of a fraternity.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: And so he and the other two men that she
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: ID'd earlier are arrested, but they are shortly thereafter released
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: on bail. this case gets picked up by the press
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: and we could also talk about the, the real life
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: case that this movie is inspired by and the press
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: of it all.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: We'll get into it.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: Cause I feel like the, the, the press is sort
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: of another large topic that this movie includes, but doesn't
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: like super, I wouldn't say it like focuses on it.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Totally. Right.
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: It's, it's more prevalent in the real life case. this
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: case gets picked up by the press and there's a
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: report about how the defense plans to claim that there
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: was no rape, that Sarah enthusiastically consented to everything that happened. Um, the,
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: the college guy rapists frat is watching this on TV.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: They're cheering for him. Although there was another guy there
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: glaring at this character, whose name is Bob. Um, We
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: recognize the guy who is glaring as the guy who
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: called 911 at the beginning.
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: Of the movie.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: So we're like, hmm, okay, let's see how this pans out.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Then District Attorney Catherine pays a visit to Sarah She
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: asks several victim blamey questions. I want to talk a
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: lot more about this scene, but the questions infuriate Sarah.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Catherine's basically like, I'm just prepping you for the questions
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: you are going to be asked on the stand by
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: the defense, because they're going to try to show the
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: jury that you have a rotten character. Because, for example,
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: Sarah drinks alcohol and smokes weed and she has a
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: criminal record because she was arrested for possession of a
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: drug that wasn't actually hers, but she still has a record.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: But yeah, basically the defense is going to try to
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: invalidate everything she says. Right. Then Catherine goes to question
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: Sarah's friend Sally who was there at the bar with
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: her that night. Sally also works at the bar but
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: she didn't see the rape because men were blocking her view.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: She says she didn't know what was going on and
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: that she left but Sally fully believes Sarah. She also
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: says that She can't really remember any of the patrons
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: who were there that night, except for a guy with
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: a scorpion tattoo. And so we'll put a pin in that,
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: but because Sally didn't really witness anything, neither did the
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: bartender because Sarah was drunk and high that night and
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: has a criminal record and various other factors. Catherine does
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: not feel confident that the jury would rule in Sarah's favor.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: Because of that, I think other DAs encourage Catherine to
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: do a plea deal so that the case doesn't go
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: to trial.
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: It also is interesting, though, that at the beginning, I
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: think that, again, I don't know about this specifically, but
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: this movie is so effective at getting you, reminding you
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: about how many systems need to actively fail someone who
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: has been raped in order for something this horrific to happen.
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: for it to happen this horrifically because with the Kelly
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: McGillis character, there's at one point a man who will
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: become very much her like op in terms of like
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: getting this case done actually suggests at the beginning that
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: she's like, she's not going hard enough when they're at
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: that hockey game. And I thought that that was such
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: an interesting detail to add that it's like the way
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: that rape is viewed in this profession at this time
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: is so clinical where he's trying to think, well, what's
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: the most you can get? What's like, what's the win
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: you can get? Like you're thinking too small. And he's like,
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: so he's both sort of, he's advocating for Sarah, but
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: totally incidentally. Right. Like he's just like for the right reasons.
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: And it's, it's, it is interesting. I do think that
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: there's like, even though I think that Kelly McGillis character
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: is like, overemphasized in the story over sarah i do
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: think that it is like interesting to see that character's
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: journey from like being uh forced to see her clients
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: as people which unfortunately um you know plenty of plenty
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: of lawyers do need that um so anyways.
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: Jamie, what do you think of the role hockey plays
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: in all this?
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: Did we even see a Zamboni on screen?
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: No. Come on. And so in that way, it doesn't
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: pass the Loftus test at all. I do actually have, unfortunately,
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: it's a bummer one, but I have a pitch for
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: a new test.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: Do you want to share that now? Yes.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: I'll, I'll posit it now. I don't know if this
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: is going to, you know, like many, we'll see if
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: it sticks. I think we'll talk about it. I have
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: very complicated feelings about the creative decision to show the
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: rape scene. I think I understand why it was done.
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: I don't think that it is a valueless decision. Wouldn't
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: have been my choice, right? Right. My test is, I'm pitching.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: I wrote this at two in the morning last night.
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: The doubt 2008 test is what I'm calling it. Okay.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: A movie whose central question at the time of release
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: seemed to be, will you believe that this clearly traumatized
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: person you've been conditioned by the media not to believe
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: is telling the truth? So, so that's, that's the test
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: is like this question of, because it reminds me of
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: doubt in that we're asked, I think, especially with 1988 goggles,
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: do you believe her? to the point where I think
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: the movie feels it. My theory is the movie feels
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: it necessary to go out of its way to tell
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: you she wasn't lying. She was telling the truth here.
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: will show you versus you know a modern lens i
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: think of like a movie like sorry baby where there
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: is an assault but you don't see it and you
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: don't need to see it to believe the protagonist right
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: the reason i say doubt is because doubt is a
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: movie in which a sexual assault this time of a
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: child by a priest is the central question of the
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: movie but there is thankfully nothing shown But it means
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: that a lot of people in 2008 took the wrong
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: questions away from that movie, which is, I wonder, do
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: you think that happened?
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: Did it happen?
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: Right. Which was like literally what, I mean, as we
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: talked about in our Doubt episode 5,000 years ago, that
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: was my takeaway from that movie. It's like, I don't know.
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: It's really about the question. Right. And it's like, no,
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: as watching it as an adult, it's it's clear that
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: this did happen. But like a movie's compulsion to show you, look,
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: they're not lying because you've been so culturally conditioned to
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: not believe them. I don't really know what the test is,
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: but that's I'm thinking around movies with those kinds of themes.
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: And I suspect that the reason the accused does show
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: this scene is because. A combination of factors, including how
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: horrific rape is. But I think there is also, especially
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: we'll talk about the production and like how this movie tested,
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: how people reacted to it, how people reacted to the
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: Cheryl Roja case. I can totally understand why production at
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: this time. would feel like we have to show the
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: audience definitively that she's telling the truth because there was
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: so much dubiousness around believing anyone, which, yeah, so I
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: don't know.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, we can talk further about the merits
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: of showing the rape scene on screen, which, spoiler alert,
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: eventually does happen toward the end of the movie. I
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: think there is value in it for certain reasons. I
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: think there's also, again, I also would have not chose
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: to show it or show it in the way that
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: it's depicted on screen in the movie. But I do
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: think it's because the film wanted to, like if anyone
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: in the audience had such doubt.
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: Literally such doubt 2008. Exactly. Exactly.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Regarding whether or not Sarah was telling the truth about
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: what happened to her. the movie is saying, no, this
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: absolutely did happen.
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: Do not have such doubt.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: Do not have such doubt versus a movie because there are,
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: there are movies such as Anatomy of a Fall where
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: you do walk away from that movie.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: Maybe having such doubt, but that's okay because.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: It's just a different approach.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: It's a, yeah, right.
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: And it's a different set of questions.
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: For sure.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: And it's, And the context for that is, I mean,
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: because rape culture is so pervasive and rape culture dictates
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: that anyone who comes forward about having been raped, the
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: reaction is usually do not believe this person. They are lying.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: Usually this woman is lying.
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: Like at best, they're equally on trial to the rapists.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Right. Because that's so pervasive. I think there is a
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: lot of value in the movie confirming that. that this
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: did indeed happen. Now, again, did it handle it the
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: best way? We will talk about it, but.
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: Felt necessary in 1988.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: And also kind of who is that, who is that
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: depiction aimed at?
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: Cause there's, I mean, there's all of these, okay, we're,
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: we're skipping ahead, but like the, the, the talk about in,
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: in that oral history, Jodie Foster was reflecting on shooting
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: that scene. And she was like, honestly, it was very upsetting. I,
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: you know, she was like, not from it, but she
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: was like, it's, it's a traumatic position to be in
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: as an actor or, And so I don't really remember.
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: But what she vividly remembered was how upset the men
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: were getting. And the men were leaving the room and
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: throwing up. Throwing up.
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I read that.
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: You know, screaming, crying, throwing up. And fair enough. It's horrific.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: But I do wonder, I mean, and again, and this
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: isn't necessarily a criticism. And it gets into a lot
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: of what we're talking about right now. Because in order
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: for rape culture to be dismantled, men cannot be in
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: favor of it as a block. Like they do need
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: to be forced to sit with these things and understand.
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: I take issue with that coming before the safety of,
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: you know, victims and survivors. Right. But it's, it's very complicated,
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: but I, I, I was, I was struck by like how,
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: you know, it sounds like Jodie Foster was like, yeah,
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: it sucked. And it was, you know, it, it was
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: difficult as an actor, but like the men were way
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: more of And I was like, that's so interesting. There
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: could be a million answers. It depends on the person,
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: but yeah.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: I mean, and yeah. And of course there are, So
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: many reasons for that. But it does make me think of,
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: you know, part of this whole problem and conversation of
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: men defaulting to disbelieving women's rape claims to the extent
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: that they have historically. It feels like part of that
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: has always been the idea of, well, how could you
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: undergo this trauma and then, you know, act in this
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: way later on or make a joke about it or
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: sort of continue on with your day? And it's like, well...
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: know women just kind of do that we just sort
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: of continue on with our day or there's the alternative
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: which is that you're being too histrionic and are therefore
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: acting you know and we're and then of course you
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: know and ultimately that's all about the idea that you
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: are not the one to decide the reality of what
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: happened to you or that you're that whatever, however you
• 40:29
  Speaker 4: behave or whatever you say, it's being judged and the
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: validity of your complaint cannot be taken for granted.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: But we simply cannot win.
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah. There's just like, there's no right way to be.
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: Jodie Foster also worked on a movie where she co-starred
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: with an actual lion and when she was a child
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: and had like close calls with it and just had
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: to go right back into it. So, you know, I mean,
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: Jodie Foster is, I, God, I'm so like, what, what
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: a life. Cause it's also like, this was her, this,
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: this role won her, her first Oscar, but it wasn't
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: her first nomination. Um, Because she got nominated as a
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: child for playing a child sex worker. Oh, right, in
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: Taxi Driver.
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: In Taxi Driver, which we somehow, I mean, I understand how,
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: but maybe it's unfortunately almost time to cover Taxi Driver.
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: I can't, I can't.
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: It's kind of like, that's one of those ones that
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: we're like, well.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: we have to, I guess.
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: Unfortunately, it does feel, does tend to come up.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Um, I mean, and then there was the whole, I
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: did it for Jodi thing, which I don't know enough about,
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: but I mean.
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: Way too much about it.
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: There's an episode of you're wrong about, about that one.
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: It's called the insanity defense. Um, yeah, that was stressful.
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: She was trying, she was at Yale at the time,
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: you know, she, it was very Buffy. She's just trying
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: to get through midterms or whatever.
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: Um, That was prior to this movie, right? That all
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: happened in the early 80s, right?
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: Like 1981, because Reagan had just become president.
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: I just, jeez.
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: I love Jodie Foster. Also, connecting to this movie, that
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: was kind of how Nancy Reagan got so into astrology.
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: Because she liked it kind of a normal amount before,
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: but after Hinckley shot Reagan. No, after Hinckley shot Reagan,
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: she was like, I really need to know astrologically how
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: to keep my husband from being shot again. That's my analysis. Wow. Well, okay.
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: It all comes back to astrology, as we will see.
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: All roads lead to astrology.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: It does.
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: I mean, I applaud her. I'm like, I'm also looking
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: for answers in the stars now. I know this episode
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: is all over the place, but I thought it was
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: interesting that Jodie Foster was not the first choice for
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: this part, which I guess I'm just assuming she's the
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: first choice for everyone because she's awesome. But she was
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: not the first choice for this part. And in fact,
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: many actresses turned this part down due to... And it
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: says because it was a controversial theme, but I think
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: we can also make space and grace for Not every
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: actor is going to want to put themselves in the
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: position of being raped on screen. So this isn't a
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: judgment of these actors. But the other actors who were
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: considered before Jodie Foster were Kim Basinger, Demi Moore, Jennifer Beals,
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: Meg Tilly, and Rosanna Arquette. So there were a lot of,
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think that, again, that just speaks to
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: what a charged topic this was. Always is, but specifically is.
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: in the 80s that so many high-profile actors were like, no,
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: not doing it.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: Well, including Kelly McGillis, who was cast to play the
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: district attorney, but she was initially offered to play the
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: role of Sarah.
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: But declined.
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: But the reason was that she had been a victim
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: of rape and didn't want to play. Right, exactly. Yeah,
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: which I knew very... This is... I'm just not very
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: familiar with Kelly McGillis. She gives a great performance in this,
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: but I'm like, I guess I've seen Top Gun.
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: I guess I've seen Top Gun.
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: Her range was limited by the needs of Top Gun.
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: But I think she's terrific in this movie. And yeah,
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: we'll talk about it. But yeah, like you're saying, Caitlin,
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: she was in consideration but chose to play the lawyer
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: because she felt kind of just weird about playing a
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: character who had gone through something so similar to something
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: she'd been through. very recently at the time this movie
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: came out and we'll get more into it. Cause it
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: also was like, I think very, it must've been incredibly
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: difficult for her to, you know, discuss on this press tour,
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: which is like how people found out.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: Well, back to the movie, I suppose. Um, So Catherine
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: is not confident that she will be able to win
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: this case for Sarah. So she meets with the attorneys
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: who are defending the rapists. They are trying to negotiate
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: what specific crime the men will be charged for. Catherine
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: is pushing for the most severe charge, which would be
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: rape one, like first degree rape. The defense is trying
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: to minimize it and advocate for like sexual abuse too.
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: They're having this very creepy. I know it's real, but
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: it's very, I, again, like you're forced to watch a
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: lot of really nasty shit in this with, with purpose,
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: but like, yeah, they're, they're like debating over, like they're like,
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: they're negotiating a contract, uh, I can give you a
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: rape too. I can give you a little, it's yeah.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: There's a moment in that scene when the attorney who
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: is defending the college frat boy, he says, and I quote,
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: he's a kid of 22. He's an a student. He's
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: got a bright future. And where have we heard that before?
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: Yay. I love this one. Um, Yeah, they're playing the
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: hits here. But I mean, and these are the hits
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: that are literally being played, right? I mean, I'm certain
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: we are going to see these exact hits played. You're
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: sent back to the Brock Turner case. You're sent back
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: to any number of high profile rape cases where it's like,
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: consider the boys, consider the boys.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: The boys and their bright futures.
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: And as we're going to get into in just a moment,
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: another thing that I mean, an aspect of the Cornell
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: case that is being.
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: at least.
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: More discussed from what I've noticed on social media and
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: just among the plebs of this world, on this round
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: of discourse that I wasn't seeing as much discussion about
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: 10 years ago, is something that this movie deals with directly,
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: which is bystanders. And what do we do with bystanders?
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: Because bystanders are... whatever to me more more rape culture
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: syndrome than the rapists themselves.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: They're the enablers of rape culture.
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: Right and that is something that I think is very
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: rightfully being talked about a lot in the context of
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: the Cornell case even though I think sometimes there's like
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: this misguided like we have to we have to think
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: about how we can help men not do this and
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: it's like oh my god can we please kick it
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: to them can they can they Can we not make
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: this women's responsibility for the first time ever?
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: I think if they stopped getting away with doing it,
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: they would, they would perhaps, we should try that.
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: You know, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just being hashtag trigger.
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, we all are, but I'm just, anytime we
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: jump directly to like consider the men, it's like, what,
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: what moment of my life am I not considering the men?
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: Oh my God.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: We've been doing that and it hasn't worked.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: No.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: Anyway, Catherine and the defense attorneys are negotiating.
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: I like the idea of offense attorneys. They're really aggressive.
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: They're very offensive.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: They eventually come to an agreement with the charge being
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: reckless endangerment rather than rape. Catherine agrees to this because
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: it carries the same like prison sentence as rape, that
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: being five years, although these rapists will likely only serve
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: about nine months in prison. So they come to this
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: plea deal. This makes Sarah furious. And she confronts Catherine
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: being like, what the fuck is this? Why aren't we
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: going to trial? Why isn't the charge first degree rape?
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: Well, it's like, why didn't anyone ask me to testify?
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: And she says, oh, just because I'm poor and not
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: as educated as you, this means I would be a
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: bad witness on the stand. Fuck you. You sell out.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: And so class becomes a part of the conversation. I'm
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: interested to talk more about that. Sarah gives this great
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: monologue and then she storms out. Cut to Sarah giving
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: herself a short haircut. So we've got some baldest woman
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: in charge vibes.
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: I think it definitely bears out because the next thing
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: she does is hit a hit a bystander with her car,
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: as is her right.
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that haircut did work.
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: But first she breaks up with her shitty boyfriend, Larry,
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: saying to get the hell out and don't come back.
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: And he takes everything but her James Dean poster.
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: And again, another I'm very glad it's referenced later that
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: Larry is is in court and testifies maybe, but we
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: don't see it. I don't think we have to. I'm
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: glad that that was done away with. But again, just
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: like another detail that I really appreciated was that her boyfriend,
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: while not himself, as far as we know, sexually abusive
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: towards her, does this thing that felt very familiar and
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: it's just like done. And then she breaks up with
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: him shortly after, but that like, He is frustrated by
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: her trauma limiting her his sexual access to her. So
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: while he is like and this happens in kind of
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: movie time where he does this and she immediately breaks
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: up with him. But that, I think, is a familiar
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: feeling to a lot of survivors. It's like someone who
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: is like, I'm here for you, babe. But then when
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: you're having difficulty even considering sexual contact with anyone, you're
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: met with frustration or resentment or whatever it is. And
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: you can feel that dynamic happening there. I just thought
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: it was a thoughtful detail.
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. He says something like... You're going to have
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: to get over this soon. This is getting so boring. Right.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: And then she's like, get the fuck out and never
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: come back. You piece of shit.
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: This is also the reveal that it's like he I'm like,
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: does he even pay rent? Like, you know, she's like,
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: this is my house. I was like, oh, yeah, get
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: the fuck out of here. Yeah. Oh, my God.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: So after she kicks him out, she carries on with
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: her life. And one day at a record store, this
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: is what you were just talking about, Jamie, a man
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: relentlessly hits on her. She keeps saying no. He gets
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: more and more aggressive. And then he says, I recognize
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: you from the mill that night. And he's taunting her.
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: She's trying to leave in her car, but he's blocking
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: the exit. So she rams into his vehicle with her car.
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: He and Sarah are both admitted to the hospital. Catherine
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: shows up for Sarah and sees the scorpion tattoo on
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: this guy's arm. Hmm, didn't Sally say something about a
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: scorpion tattoo? Then Catherine goes to Sarah and Sarah is like,
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: this happened because you didn't let the case go to
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: trial and let me speak for myself. So now everyone
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: thinks I'm a piece of shit. So this is your fault, Catherine.
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: And Catherine is like, damn, she's right. So she goes
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: after the scorpion tattoo guy who tells Catherine that Sarah
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: is a crazy whore who put on a sex show
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: for an audience. And she loved every second of it.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: And this is where things start to, I mean, well,
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: they've already sort of separated from the case that inspired it.
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: But I thought it was interesting that they, they pace
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: it out in this movie and, Because my understanding of
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: the Arujo case is that bystanders were always a part
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: of the conversation and that these, these, these were separate trials,
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: but it wasn't, I thought it was an interesting writing
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: choice that they had Kelly McGillis's character go after the
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: bystanders because she had taken it too easy on the
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: rapists themselves. Cause that's how it's presented.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: And this is like a thing that happens a lot
• 52:50
  Speaker 4: in law and order where like, you as an audience
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: will watch the prosecutors kind of not be able to
• 52:58
  Speaker 4: satisfyingly prosecute the person who's morally responsible for something. So
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: then they kind of go after somebody else and it's very,
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: and it like satisfies.
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: You as a viewer.
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: Um, but it's, it's weird legally and also gets consistently
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: for them to sort of, you know, for it to
• 53:15
  Speaker 4: then maybe feel as if we're using the second trial
• 53:18
  Speaker 4: as a way to make the first deal legal. seem
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: like palatable, less inadequate.
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah.
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: Right. I mean, it is sort of like Kelly McGillis,
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: like to some extent her like journey to recognize that, um,
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: you know, like, well, it's a combination of things, right?
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: Cause it's like, she, she believed, like she always does.
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: But I guess it's like a question of her character
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: at the beginning of believes Sarah, but she doesn't necessarily
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: believe that it matters. Right. Which is like two separate things.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: That it's worth going to trial for.
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: Or like worth risking anything professionally or personally. So it's,
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: which I think is so telling. And I think is
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: very true of, of many women of that time. And
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: still now that like when you, when someone is in,
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking right now of, I mean, like, whatever we're
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: talking about this at the tour as well but um
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: you know megan kelly right yeah who very publicly and
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: like rightfully called out roger ailes for sexually harassing her
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: this was around the time of me too i believe
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: this happened in 2016 so the year before they made
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: a movie about it whatever And who is now during
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: the Cornell case has totally stepped back from that stance
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: as being an advocate for women. And basically, you know,
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: went on her fuck ass show and was like, consider
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: the boys. It's what she was wearing. Like, was she
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: like the playbook that we've been hearing from before the
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: accused came out.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: From time immemorial of blaming the victim, which is fascinating
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: when it's like, you know, I do think there's value
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: in showing that other women will, and, and not to
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: say that only women are victims of rape disproportionately, you
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: guys all know what I mean.
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: But, but that other women will, you know, not be
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: willing to personally risk anything for a woman who is
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: suffering to protect their own interests and peace. Yeah.
• 55:29
  Speaker 4: And I think the kind of the way that generational
• 55:31
  Speaker 4: trauma is, exacts itself where women will kind of look at,
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: at other women or younger generations, um, you know, reporting
• 55:39
  Speaker 4: or wanting to have taken seriously sexual trauma or assaults
• 55:43
  Speaker 4: that they've suffered. And the sort of the feeling if
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: you have lived through that and not received any kind
• 55:48
  Speaker 4: of attention or care for it, you know, the feeling
• 55:52
  Speaker 4: of resentment that we can see that engendering, not fairly
• 55:56
  Speaker 4: or rightly, but like that, that's definitely a trend that
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: keeps emerging.
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. For sure.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: This is not the same thing, but it's like when
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: people are like, well, I had to pay back my
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: student loans. So everyone should.
• 56:10
  Speaker 4: No, it totally is.
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: On a different scale.
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: But yeah.
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: I think it is morally correct for things to not
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: be better for my children. And it's like, what?
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: I suffered, so everyone should have to suffer. So the
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: scorpion tattoo guy says this horrible thing about Sarah and
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: the events of that night, which prompts Catherine to go
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: back and listen to the 911 call that the guy
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: made anonymously at the very beginning. in which he says
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: there's a whole crowd watching. So, as we were just
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: talking about, basically in order to redeem the situation, and
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: also perhaps like Catherine redeeming herself because she fucked up
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: by taking the plea deal, she now wants to go
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: after the group of patrons at the bar who she
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: believes solicited and encouraged. the rape so that she can
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: charge them with criminal solicitation her male colleagues at the
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: da's office do not like this and i don't know
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: if they fire her or threaten to fire her but
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: they're being babies about it and they're being really shitty
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: about it.
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: It was unclear because it does seem like she stays
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: at the office question mark i don't understand how lawyers
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: work so i was like maybe she still works there
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: maybe she doesn't either way yeah they're at.
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: Odds indeed Catherine goes back to Sarah to admit her
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: mistake and say that there's still a chance for Sarah
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: to go to trial and take the stand and tell
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: her story if they prosecute the complicit men who.
• 57:56
  Speaker 4: Encouraged the rape.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: Sarah agrees to this, especially because if they win this case,
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: the rape will go on record, which it wasn't before
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: because of the plea deal. And the rapists will stay
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: in jail for the full five years of their sentence
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: rather than be released after a few months. So Catherine
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: goes back to Sarah's friend Sally to see if she
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: can look at a lineup and identify any of the
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: men who egged on the rape, which she does for
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: three men. Then Catherine asks Sally a series of questions.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: Sally kind of lets it slip on the record that
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: on the night of the rape earlier in the evening,
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: Sarah had said that she thought the frat boy was
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: cute and wouldn't mind sleeping with him. Sally acknowledges that
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: Sarah was joking when she said this, but Catherine thinks
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: that this does not make Sarah look good. And she
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: feels she can't use Sally as a witness for the
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: prosecution anymore. And so everyone is discouraged and they're like,
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: oh God, what do we do? Then Catherine goes to
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: the mill to look around. She sees the video game
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: that the bartender mentioned one of the men who was
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: there that night, like playing the video game.
• 59:23
  Speaker 4: This movie does not make pinball games look good.
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: And I do love, just like in any movie, a
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: gumshoe reporting sequence.
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: I don't know how to feel about this. It's kind
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: of silly. She goes to the top scoreboard on this
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: video game.
• 59:44
  Speaker 4: Thank God he was good at it.
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: Thank God he was.
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: Good at it, that he used his first name.
• 59:50
  Speaker 4: That his first name is three letters.
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: Deus ex pinball machine how do we get this plot
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: information across so basically.
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: This this guy who is the one who makes the
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: anonymous 911 call he had been playing this game he
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: scored well on it entered his name on the scoreboard
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: which also says the date which is april 19th.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 4: Which i don't think it normally does i don't know.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: I don't know either but this is the evidence pinball
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: machine Yes.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: But the best part is that his name, it pans
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 4: over dramatically, and his name is Ken.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: Ken.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: Which could be anyone named Ken.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 4: But for some reason... But no, it isn't. Okay, I
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: thought I was missing something.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: I'm like, how does she know... I'm like, Ken, why
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: not choose a more anachronistic name?
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: Sure. So this prompts Catherine to look at the fraternity yearbook.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 4: I love that she has that. I mean, I'm sure
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 4: she could get it, but it's just a funny thing
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 4: to suddenly appear in her home.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: I'm like, was that in the library?
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 4: I don't... I don't know.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: I wasn't mad about it. Yeah, I was like, of
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: all the things to be like silly and summary, I'm like, whatever.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: We get to Ken.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah. We know where we're going. We need to get there.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 4: But yeah, I just love that she just has it
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 4: all of a sudden.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: She has the like, I don't know. I don't remember
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: the name of the fraternity.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 4: She's doing the lawyer movie thing where you decide to
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 4: win the unwinnable case and then it just and things
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 4: just start working out for you.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: So she looks through this fraternity yearbook and finds Kenneth Joyce.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 4: And thank God there's only one Ken. There's only one Ken, yeah.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 4: But nope, there's just the one, just one Ken. And
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 4: she's like, hey.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: In 1988? Oh, my God.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 4: And then she shows up on campus and she's like,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 4: I know that you are the Ken and you are
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 4: going to talk to me about it right now.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: And he's like.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 4: Sitting on this bench.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: And he's like, you got me. I am the only
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: Ken in the state of Washington.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 4: I am Ken.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: Oh, shucks.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 4: This is probably not that funny. But inside of this conversation,
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 4: it's very funny. I just need to laugh about Ken.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: It's very, yeah. Plot.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: The movie's going to get plotty somewhere and I don't
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: find it offensive that they yada yada.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 4: This because we just got to get to Ken. We
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 4: got to get to Ken.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: And we do.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 4: His job is video game initials enterer.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: Ken's an interesting character. I'm interested to talk about.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 4: The function of Ken.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: Because he keeps kind of going back and forth of
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: like I'm going to testify. Wait, no, I'm not.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: Yes, I am.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: No, I'm not involved. I don't remember anything. You know,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: so we don't know what he's going to end up doing.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: We cut to the day of the trial for the
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: criminal solicitation case. Sarah takes the stand and tells her story,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: recounting the events of the night of April 18th.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: Jodie Foster comes to win an Oscar on this day.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: Oh, yes. Yes. she's cross-examined by the defense who tried
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: to say that it's not possible for her to know
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: exactly who encouraged the assault. And she's like, I mean, yeah,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: I guess you're not wrong.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 4: Because she was too busy being violently raped. Right. This
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 4: one is, it also feels so horrifyingly real where they're like, well,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 4: if you were so distracted by being horrifyingly raped, then
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: how could you possibly have seen it well enough to
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 4: describe it? It's like, You're right. The fact that this
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 4: terrible thing happened to me is proof that it doesn't
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 4: matter what I know happened to me. Good job.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 4: It's right.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 3: It's so like I mean, and then if you look
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: at the Arrujo case, it's like so it's not like
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: exactly one to one, but it's so close. Like just
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: of how we still talk about rape and how, you know,
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 3: it's like Sarah is is on trial for sure.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 4: We treat UFO sightings with more credulousness, I guess. You know,
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 4: like when someone is on the news saying they saw
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 4: a UFO, people ask much easier questions.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: Yes. So things are a little shaky during the trial
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: and pretty much everything comes down to Ken's testimony.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 3: Hmm.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: Before he testifies, he visits his rapist friend who is
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: in prison.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 4: Who's like, hey, buddy.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: Hey.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: He tries to coerce Ken into saying that he was
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: drunk and doesn't remember anything from that night. Because this
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: rapist knows that if Ken testifies that he witnessed the rape,
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: this frat guy will get the full five-year sentence and
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: it will be on his record. Yeah.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 4: And five years is a really, really long time to
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 4: go to prison.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: Especially for a man with such a bright future.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: Fuck off.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 4: Like, truly, truly.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: So then Ken goes back to Catherine and Sarah and
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: says that if he is made to testify, he will
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: recant his whole statement. So Sarah is like, what the fuck?
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: Ken takes the stand. We don't know if he is
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: going to like chicken out and recant his statement. But
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: it turns out that he tells the whole story, which
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: we see as a flashback. And again, like extra trigger
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: warning here. But the brutal rape is depicted on screen.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: It goes on for a while.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 3: And we see, I think, crucially, we see the entire story. Yeah.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: And I'm not saying this pro or con, but we
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: see it from the moment she enters the bar, which
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: is sort of part of why I'm like, I do
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 3: think that like, and not even in a bad way,
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 3: but I do think that men or, or I guess
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 3: more generally people inclined to disbelieve rape victims see every
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 3: single thing that is talked about and put on trial.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: We see the whole thing. sequence, including the moments that
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 3: are characterized as Sarah's quote-unquote mistakes, right? Her saying, oh,
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: he's kind of cute. Like, maybe I should hook up
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: with him to make my shitty boyfriend jealous. And in
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: the moment, you see it is so clearly a cast-off thing.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 3: It is not this diabolical thing it's made out to be.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: It is such a... And something that I... Found, I guess,
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: about this sequence, if it has to be there, and
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 3: that's the way the movie is, so I guess it
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 3: has to be there. Something I found tricky about this,
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 3: and I guess gets into, I know we'll have a
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 3: longer discussion about intent and everything, of what is the
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: purpose of this sequence. We're constantly switching perspectives in this scene.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: We don't stay on any one character's perspective, which I found...
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 3: To be, I don't know, a choice I just want
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: to talk about with both of you because it's not
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 3: like you necessarily, I mean, whatever. No one wants to
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 3: be locked in on Sarah's perspective here. She is experiencing
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 3: something truly horrifying. But we are frequently switching to us.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: witnesses perspectives we are occasionally directly in sarah's pov we're
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: also in the pov of ken we're also the pov
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 3: of sally we're also in the pov of the bartender
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 3: we're really jumping around this scene and i think it's
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: to just show who's telling the truth and who is
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: maybe not told the entire truth But I found it,
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: I guess just like even as a viewer, I found
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: it quite jarring that the scene cannot seem to exactly
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 3: choose or favor a perspective. Because I wouldn't even, I
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: think that if I had to pick a character whose
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 3: perspective is favored, it would probably be Ken. But even so,
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 3: it's like the camera's really jumping all over the place
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 3: in a way that I was like, okay, I feel
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 3: like this scene is really telling us who this movie
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 3: is for. And it seems like everyone is supposed to
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 3: maybe see themselves in someone's perspective in this scene.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I actually kind of appreciated the objectivity
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: of the point of view. Because in theory, we should
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: only be seeing things from Ken's perspective because this is
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: who is recounting these events in this moment.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: But the movie chooses to give us a more objective
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: point of view or to like jump around to different
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: people's points of view, which I think implies, again, this
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: is what happened.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: Objectively, because different people are going to different people who
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: experience the same thing are still going to describe events
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: differently based on their perspective, their lived experience. certain bits
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: of context, whatever. But this objective... depiction of this event
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: i think actually serves the story well i don't know
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: maybe i'm wrong but.
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 3: No you're not wrong i'm like i it was just
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 3: something i was i was curious what you both thought
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: about i think i i struggled with it a little
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 3: bit but i also am like having a hard time
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 3: articulating why so that that is helpful to hear.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 4: I feel like it watching it or talking about it
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 4: even more now it makes me think about shaming to
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 4: what you're saying how how much of that sequence is
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 4: sort of answering the assumptions that I think the movie
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 4: is assuming audience members have maybe made at that point.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 4: And that if it is a movie where characters are
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 4: raising these questions, which, you know, are very familiar from
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 4: real life about, and you know, this like fundamental, also
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 4: non-question at the heart of all this, which is, you know, well,
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 4: was she so drunk and flirty that it can't have
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 4: been rape? And it's like, well, there's no Degree of
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 4: drunkenness or flirtiness or any other behavior that makes something
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 4: into not rape, you know, but but this question that
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 4: seems so relevant to people at the time in which
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 4: people and, you know, still does, unfortunately, in which people
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 4: give so much power to. And I think that what
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 4: to me, what this the sequence does that I feel
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 4: grateful for. To see in a movie is that it
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 4: shows her like being flirty and showing interest in this
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 4: guy and dancing and being sexy. And yet when it
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 4: comes to the actual rape scene, you're also then forced
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 4: to watch something that is so brutal and so horrifying
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 4: and goes on for so long that I think, you know,
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 4: the gamble that the movie is taking is that anyone
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 4: who's watching it, even who's been unsympathetic. Sarah and who
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 4: has the kind of assumptions that it would be fair
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 4: to assume that a lot of viewers would have at
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 4: this time, that if she dances or if she's flirty
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 4: or drunk, then it then doesn't matter what happens to her.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 4: It feels like the movie is forcing you as, as
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 4: the viewer to recognize that that assumption is horrible and insane. Um, yeah,
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 4: I'm sure there are some people that that didn't work on,
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 4: but you know, it's, it's, I'm, I don't know. I'm
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 4: grateful for, that's my read of it. Um, and I,
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 4: I appreciated that.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: Because we see the evolution of things being consensual for
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: Sarah consenting to things. She is dancing sexily of her
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: own volition she is then dancing with the guy it
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: seems as though she is consenting to that they start
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: kissing it seems as though she is consenting to that
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: but then there's a very clear turn where she very
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: very clearly says stop no i have to leave.
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 3: And that's when the bystanders get kind of activated to
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 3: get involved because they're more passive before the rape I also,
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: I hope I'm remembering it correctly because it was not
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 3: a scene that I was like, let me watch it
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: a second time. I don't think that there's an overemphasis
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 3: on music. When that shift happens, you're kind of just watching,
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: which I, again, I think that that is a very
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 3: smart filmmaking choice where you can't really argue. And I
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 3: guess going back to your point, Caitlin, of like the
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: value of moving around perspectives and this like trying to
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: make the scene as objective as is possible, that like
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 3: There's not a lot of filmmaking tools that could be
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 3: argued as trying to tell you how to feel. You're
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: being shown something and you're not being told how to feel.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: And that cuts both ways, right? Because it's like if
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 3: you're playing tragic music as this rape is taking place,
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 3: That's telling you to feel one way. Or if the
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 3: camera is behaving differently and her body is being objectified
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: in any way, which I didn't think it was, that's,
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 3: you know, how that cuts the other way. I guess, yeah,
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 3: this is very helpful to talk about with both of you.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 3: That so much of what I see value in with
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: this story specifically, and it connects to Cheryl Arujo, even
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 3: though it's like this story is best separated from her
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 3: because it's not her story. But just the idea of
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 3: an imperfect victim. Which is something that we still culturally
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 3: struggle with so much. That we are sort of conditioned
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 3: to only... empathize in an uncomplicated way with people who
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 3: have been assaulted and at no point like there was
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 3: no line of consent that was like began as consent
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: and then crossed over into it there was no alcohol
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 3: like i think that it is like important to be
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 3: confronted with these i mean because this is how a
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 3: lot of rape takes place and how a lot of
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 3: rape is excused. And so having, having her at the
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 3: center and, and seeing it and also just it being
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 3: so clear that this, that there's no world where this
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 3: is right.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 4: And I guess that there, that I think a lot
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 4: of the complexity that people claim to exist in the issue,
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 4: I think, because to me seems to dissolve once you
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 4: can hopefully get, people to understand that you know rape
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 4: is not anything that anyone has ever asked for at
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 4: any point right this idea that to be sexually available
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 4: is to ask for rape you know and this idea
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 4: that men can't tell the difference um.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 3: And and shouldn't be expected to right yeah it's um.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 4: Anyway moving moving on.
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately still so prevalent so we see this flashback Then
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: we cut back to the courtroom. The defense and prosecution
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: give their closing arguments. Sarah and Catherine await the verdict.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: And finally, the jury finds the three defendants guilty of
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: criminal solicitation. And that's basically how the movie ends.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 4: And then a wonderful, scary TV movie ending with statistics.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 3: Oh, yes.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 3: And I didn't write down the exact statistic, but it was,
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 3: you know, I think it was like once every six
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 3: seconds a.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 4: Rape case is reported.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 3: Six minutes.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: Six minutes.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, something like that.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 4: Sorry.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 3: And again, that's, this is separate from this movie's conversation,
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 3: but those are just the cases that are reported. I
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 3: think the statistic going around during this, this, Round of
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 3: Discourse is that I believe three quarters of women or
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 3: non-binary identifying people have some experience with assault.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: Which still feels like a conservative estimate. So that is
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: the movie. Let's take a quick break and we'll come
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: back to discuss.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this is, I'm not surprised that this is a
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 3: movie that we've kind of been having a discussion throughout.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 3: I guess before we, Sarah, is there anything that you
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 3: want to start the discussion with? Is there anything standing
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 3: out to you that we haven't started a discussion on yet?
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean, the only thing that comes to mind
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 4: is that I find it, we were talking a little
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 4: bit before in sort of the central rape scene about
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 4: whose flashback this is and how it does seem to
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 4: be at least according to the structure of the movie,
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 4: mostly Ken's flashback. And I find it interesting that it
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 4: sort of, and again, this is sort of like us
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 4: situating the movie as part of a time, but the
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 4: idea that it takes a man's testimony for theoretically the
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 4: jury in this courtroom and also us, the people watching
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 4: it to be able to see what happened and for
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 4: the people hearing this testimony to, to believe it possibly.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I, I, Yeah, that's something that, okay, so because
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 3: obviously this is something that is like on all of
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 3: our minds in particular right now with the Cornell case
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 3: and that there's a group chat of I think over
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 3: 50 people who are aware this was happening and that
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 3: no one intervened. I'm of many minds about that because
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 3: it's like it is crucial for men who are aware
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 3: this is happening and not doing anything to intervene. Put
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 3: something at stake and intervene. And if you didn't intervene
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 3: to do everything you humanly can to make it right.
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 3: And then in the same way, I do have so
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 3: I think that the way that the movie handles this
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 3: plot point is kind of is fairly dated. The shot
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 3: that was like, ooh, I really want to believe that
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 3: would not happen in 2026 is at the very, very end.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 3: They win the case and we cut to Ken and
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 3: he kind of gives Sarah a little smile.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: A little smile, yeah.
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 3: I'm like, you witnessed her horrific... Right. There's this little
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 3: redemptive shot you get of him that I was like, that...
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 3: I do think this movie does have an interest in
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 3: getting men to recognize... And again, I'm saying... Men in
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 3: the general sense, please don't yell at me, but like
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 3: getting men to recognize their own complicity in rape culture
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 3: and in bystander culture and everyone's, but specifically men. Right.
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 3: I think that that does feel like a clear part
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 3: of this movie's agenda. And I'm like, thumbs up. I
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 3: appreciate it. but it felt like going way too far
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 3: to give him a little like hero shot at the
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 3: end of the movie like what do you mean I mean,
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 3: I agree.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: I think it could have been a lot worse, though,
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: which doesn't excuse. But there's so many.
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 3: I just found the shot.
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: Like, cut it. Leave it on the cutting room floor.
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: But I feel like there are many movies that lean
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: way further into the like. Look how this man-savior, or
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 2: it's similar to a white-savior narrative. Look how awesome and
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: amazing they are. And the movie will turn focus to
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: them and highlight their redemptive arc or their triumph or whatever.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: When it's like, no, this is not the story that
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: is being told. We should not shift focus to the savior.
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: And Jamie, like you were saying, it's complicated because... People
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: with privilege, men, white people, cishet people, et cetera, should
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: use their privilege to help and advocate for and protect
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: and ensure the safety of marginalized people. But that's the
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: bare minimum. So we shouldn't be groveling at their feet
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: and shifting all the focus to them when they display
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: basic human decency.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 3: And it feels a little like, yeah, I think the
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 3: shot sucks. I do think it's like kind of like,
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 3: and maybe I'm overthinking this, but like propaganda positive for like,
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 3: for people who, and again, I'm just going to say men,
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 3: and I'm so sorry, but like, to men who maybe
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 3: would not have seen themselves in this movie. I mean,
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 3: we talk all the time on The Box of Casbah,
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 3: the patriarchy, the guy archetype. I think this movie avoids
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 3: that so well. We see such a gradient of People
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 3: of all genders, really, in their reaction to this crime
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 3: and to Sarah as a victim and as a survivor.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 3: And I think that the movie seems to maybe be
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 3: offering Ken as the most accessible self-insert character for men
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 3: watching this movie. of like, you know, I think that
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 3: there is this little undercurrent of like, be the Ken
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 3: in this story.
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 4: Be the person. Do you suspect that they tested this
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 4: and based on comment cards, they were like, oh, we
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 4: have to give, we have to give the men's name
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 4: to someone We actually have some information to identify with.
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 4: We have this information.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah?
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: Take it away, Jamie.
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 3: What happened? Okay, so the story is there. This is
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 3: coming from a Hollywood reporter, oral history of this movie
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 3: that came out in 2016.
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 3: By Rebecca Ford, that talks to basically all of the
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 3: relevant parties. So this movie was directly inspired by the
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 3: Cheryl Erujo case, which we'll get to. It was originally
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 3: pitched by writer Tom Topor, who I don't know very
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 3: much about, but this is definitely a preoccupation of his
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 3: writing career. And I don't mean that in a negative way.
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 3: So he brings this He was struck by the public
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 3: response to the Cheryl Orujo case and suggested writing this movie.
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 3: It is three producers, two of whom are women and
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 3: definitely worth singling out. Don Steele and Sherry Lansing were
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 3: the two producers who did get this movie made because
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 3: this is obviously not a movie that is considered marketable.
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: And in fact, was one of the first... mainstream films
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: to ever deal with this subject.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 3: Which i mean which is not i was curious i
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 3: wish i had more time to like not that i
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 3: doubt it but like to fact check that and to
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 3: see over time how was this topic previously addressed because
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 3: i i do believe that there were movies obviously in
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 3: which rape played a prominent role but yeah not.
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 4: And i spit on your grave as one answer but
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 4: then that's like sure You know, in the B-movie exploitation genre,
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 4: where also one of the goals of movies in the
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 4: kind of rape revenge genre in the 70s was to
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 4: titillate men.
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 4: And then presumably to make them feel better by watching
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 4: rapists being murdered and being like, see, it's fine that
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 4: I felt like that. They're all dead now. Or I
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 4: don't know how they're supposed to work psychologically, but we
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 4: sure met a lot of them for a while.
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: I haven't seen I Spit on Your Grave, but that's
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 2: what I understand it to be like.
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, very much so.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 4: And this idea of like a mainstream legitimate movie that
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 4: also doesn't sort of go into euphemisms.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 3: It's like a courtroom drama as well. Like more so
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 3: than procedural.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah. The quote from Tom Topor when he and Jonathan
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 3: Kaplan were getting ready to put this movie together after
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 3: Don Steele and Sherry Lansing pushed it through. He says,
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 3: Jonathan and I looked at a lot of old films
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 3: and we couldn't find one that explored the subject. there
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 3: were almost no movies where the subject of the movie
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 3: is rape. There are many movies that have a rape
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 3: incident in them, but the accused is entirely about rape.
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 3: There's no other subject. And it's about two women. There's
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 3: no man who comes to rescue them. It's a very
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 3: tough subject. So I, yes, the movie was written and
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 3: directed by men, but at least it was by men
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 3: who cared about the topic.
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 4: And then like the closest thing I can think of
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 4: is off the top of my head is Anatomy of
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 4: a Murderer. which came out in maybe 1961, but that's
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 4: about a woman is raped and her husband murders the
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 4: man who did it. And it's about the trial. Never
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 4: seen it. About him going to trial for that. And
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 4: so what happened to her is relevant, but it's, you know,
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 4: it comes back to men ultimately, of course.
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 3: Got it.
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 4: And for Ben Gazzara.
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 3: To get her background to, Sarah, your question about test screenings. Yeah.
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 3: That's all leading up to, So this is covered at
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 3: length in oral history. When the movie was first test screened,
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 3: it received the lowest scores in the history of Paramount.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 4: Oh, my God.
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 3: Which is unhinged.
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 4: And they did the Friday the 13th sequels.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 3: Sherry Lansing says the audience thought that Jodi's character deserved
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 3: the rape, which is not shocking to hear, but is
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 3: shocking to hear. I mean, I think there's no person
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 3: in particular that said this, but coming off of the
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 3: Cheryl Arugio case where that was very much the energy,
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 3: it makes you, it made me want to lay down
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 3: and die because it's like, okay, so this is just
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 3: proof positive that this horrific trial being broadcast on national
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 3: television did not change people's minds. And that makes me
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 3: so angry because Cheryl Arugio was not alive to see
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 3: this movie. anyways lansing later asks for a screening of
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 3: the accused with just women which tests far.
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: Better because the executives at paramount because of this the
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: really low scores on the test screening wanted to basically
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: cancel the release of the movie yeah god and sherry
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: lansing was like not on my watch.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 3: She was like, no, this is consider maybe who this
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 3: movie is for. Why do we need to prove that
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 3: women see movies every two years or whatever? Um, but yeah,
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 3: according to Lansing, there were 20 women who saw the
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 3: movie at this test screening and 18 said that they
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 3: had experience with or knew someone who had been raped.
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 3: And as they continued to edit the movie, it eventually
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 3: got one of the highest test scores in the studio's history.
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 3: So there's, you know, it seems like this is also
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 3: being filmed and released in a moment. And again, like
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 3: speaking to your point earlier, Sarah, that we've taken steps
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 3: forward and back and like, this is very nonlinear, but
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 3: during a a moment where people's feelings are changing on
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 3: this topic kind of in real time, which is interesting
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 3: because this movie does go on to be financially successful,
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 3: which I wasn't expecting, honestly. And Jodie Foster wins an
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 3: Oscar for it. And like we talked about, Kelly McGillis
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 3: luckily chose, this was not information that was like outed
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 3: about her. She chose to share that she had been
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 3: raped just a few years before in a very horrific
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 3: way and talked about it in the press tour just
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 3: to really make it clear that like this is an
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 3: issue that affects everyone it is extremely pervasive for example
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 3: me so I don't know Caitlin did you have anything
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 3: else for the production that felt relevant.
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 2: Not really I don't think because you already touched on
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 2: something I wanted to talk about which is the actual
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 2: filming of the rape scene and how I'm thinking about
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: like if this movie was remade today, not saying that
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 2: it needs to be, but if this movie came out
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 2: in 2026, I think it would be filmed differently or
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 2: I would hope. But even at the time, people were
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 2: very cautious about it and they understood how it seems
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: like they understood how The impact it might have on audiences,
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: the impact it could have on the cast and crew,
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 2: and that it was meticulously rehearsed. Seems like measures were
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 2: taken to ensure people's safety on set. And even so,
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: it was still quite traumatic to many people involved. Just
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: to kind of reiterate that.
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 4: Absolutely.
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah, I think that was everything I had for
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 3: the production. I did want to talk. a little more
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 3: about the case that inspired this. Yes.
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 3: It does feel relevant for us to, to get in
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 3: on that. So, uh, this is based on a case
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 3: around a woman named Cheryl Arrujo, which is, Again, it's
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 3: like this is something I was vaguely aware of because
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 3: New Bedford is pretty similar, I guess, like socioeconomically to
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 3: my hometown, Brockton. So it's like, I don't know, very,
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 3: very aware of New Bedford. Also, iconically, like a lot
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 3: of Moby Dick is in New Bedford. There is an
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 3: annual reading of Moby Dick in New Bedford. It's great.
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 3: And what is relevant here, because while I think the accused,
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 3: I'm like, kind of blown away with how much I
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 3: how well how well I thought it did with all
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 3: these difficult topics given the moment it came out in
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 3: and also kind of not given the moment it came
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 3: out and we're not really getting movies like this now
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 3: frequently and certainly not ones that become I mean we
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 3: had Sorry Baby last year but I think you know
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 3: it's like Promising Young Woman and Sorry Baby are sort
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 3: of the only two movies of the last 10 years
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 3: that I feel like I've really broken through in in
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 3: a like award sense on this topic. So it definitely
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 3: has paved the way for a lot, but there are
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 3: differences and things that it doesn't deal with that the
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 3: case that inspired it does that feel relevant to talk about.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 3: The two things that really stuck out to me were
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 3: the issue of prejudice, first of all, and then second,
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 3: the issue of media coverage.
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 4: Caitlin, you alluded to this earlier.
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 3: We both watched the episode of Trial by Media on Netflix.
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 3: I'm interested to watch the rest of that series. Deborah's
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 3: in it. Shout out, Deborah. Oh, and then the third
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 3: thing is how feminists were actually crucially involved in these
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 3: cases and like public response. So, okay, Cheryl Arrujo, the
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 3: case itself, the details of the case are quite similar
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 3: down to the fact that the reason that a pinball
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 3: machine in the accused is so focused on is because
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 3: they had to change that from a pool table, which
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 3: is from the original case. Important to note, we should
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 3: not know Cheryl Arujo's name. So this is something that is, again,
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 3: the accused does not really get into media exploitation. But
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 3: what was remarkable about the Cheryl Arujo case is that
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 3: it was one of the first, if not the first,
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 3: rape case to be Broadcast televised.
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 3: Televised began locally and then escalated to like an early
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 3: coup for CNN. And because of that and you hear
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 3: the the judge in this he speaks for this and
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 3: explains why he felt it might be in the interest
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 3: of the public good to understand how rape trials work.
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 3: You can like I guess if it hasn't been done before,
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 3: I can see why you might want to feel optimistic
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 3: about it. But what we learned very quickly is that
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 3: that is not at all the case. And that because
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 3: there was no experience to to like harken back to
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 3: for broadcasting a rape case. Her identity was not sufficiently protected.
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 3: The everyone agreed. I thought this was fascinating because this
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 3: this is like so far out the window at this
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 3: point of how we talk about rape cases where the
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 3: idea of Jane Doe is still held. But again, like
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 3: everyone agreed, like there was no argument. We don't need
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 3: to know what this woman's name is and we don't
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 3: need to see her on television. But they fucked it
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 3: up and accidentally aired her name on TV, which effectively.
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: Doxed her?
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 3: Doxed her and ruined her life, right? Because the other
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 3: element at play here is that Charlotte Rougeau, like many
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 3: people in New Bedford, there's a big Portuguese population and
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 3: Portuguese immigrant population. And all of the very New England
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 3: prejudices therein and American prejudices in general towards Portuguese people.
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 3: So both Cheryl Arujo is Portuguese or of Portuguese descent
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 3: and the men who raped her were also of Portuguese descent,
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 3: which makes sense in a majority Portuguese community. However, what
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 3: this and this vaguely, Sarah, I was thinking like it
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 3: vaguely reminds me of elements of the OJ case because.
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 3: Cheryl is, you know, like goes to the police and says, I,
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 3: you know, I was raped by, I believe, six men
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 3: and that there were witnesses. Like we talked about, these
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 3: trials kind of happen alongside each other. There isn't a
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 3: Kelly McGillis character in this story, but that a lot
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 3: of white bread, like nimby types in this area take
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 3: this opportunity to say, oh, well, of course she was raped.
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 3: Portuguese immigrants are unsafe and use it as this big
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 3: opportunity to say like, well, I knew it because I
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 3: am prejudiced against immigrants. Like I'm, I'm racist. I'm horrible.
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 3: And so Cheryl Arujo was like dealing with multiple layers
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 3: that we don't see with Sarah because the story has
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 3: been you know, pretty whitewashed.
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 4: Because they couldn't fit it into two hours. Well, and
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 4: not to offer that as an excuse, but just, yeah,
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 4: to say that the complexity of real life doesn't fit
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 4: into the time of a movie.
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 3: I couldn't find a phase of production where this was
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 3: even considered.
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 4: To be included. And that seems tactical as well in
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 4: a depressing way.
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 3: In a depressing way, yeah. Because not only is Cheryl
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 3: Arujo doxed, but she's also kind of cast out of
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 3: her own community in New Bedford because people blame her
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 3: and blame her reporting this case in the first place
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 3: for this new wave of anti-immigrant sentiment in this area.
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 3: So she is... you know, ostracized from her own community
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 3: to some extent. Again, I'm not saying 100%, but that
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 3: this became a very complicated, charged issue in the Portuguese community, understandably,
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 3: because there was this wave of prejudice that came off
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 3: of this case that was then put on Cheryl Arrucho.
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 3: There was also a lot of local protests. There was
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 3: a lot of feminist organizing. I think more so than
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 3: we see in The Accused, There was a lot of
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 3: public support of Cheryl as this case went on. You know,
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 3: I get why there might not have been bandwidth to
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 3: show it within the accused. But it was I mean,
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 3: if you see these crowd shots of New Bedford is
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 3: like not a big city. And the streets are like
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 3: flooded with people on both sides of this issue at
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 3: different points. But it is flooded with feminists. It is
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 3: flooded with Portuguese feminists specifically who are like, let her
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 3: fucking speak. This is a more complicated issue than you're
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 3: making it out to be. You see all the classic,
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 3: I mean, things we still see today of what was
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 3: she wearing culture. We see something I thought, sorry, I'm
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 3: like talking so much. I'm sorry, guys.
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 4: Keep talking.
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 3: We see how people received watching this case because again,
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 3: people just like hadn't, this hadn't happened before. There wasn't
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 3: precedent for it. So there's like local reporters who are
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 3: interviewing people watching this in bars. People are saying something
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 3: that feels so normalized today that it was almost bizarre
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 3: to watch people talk about it as if like, It
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 3: wasn't something that happens every day, which is depressing. But
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 3: it was like people in bars being like, yeah, normally
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 3: I watch soap operas, but now I'm watching this, which
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 3: is there's a whole true crime industry around that now.
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 4: Waiting to be born.
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah. But this was unusual. People were like, well, what,
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 3: you know, and there were feminist groups that were like, well,
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 3: if we're consuming it like we're consuming soap operas, then
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 3: this is not the right way to consume it. And
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 3: there's also the argument that like for a lot of
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 3: people seeing, I do see the cultural value of seeing
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 3: how rape is treated in court because you'd see like
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 3: right up front, all of these questions similar to what
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 3: we see Jodie Foster confronted with in The Accused, just
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 3: putting her on trial, blaming her. The feeling at the
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 3: time was like, well, this is going to not encourage
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 3: other survivors of sexual assault to come forward, which is true.
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 3: But again, I guess maybe my hot take there is
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 3: I don't think that's a fault of the broadcast. That
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 3: is one of the valuable parts of the broadcast is
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 3: to show that the American justice system only traumatizes the
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 3: victim further in many of these cases. And it shows
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 3: you directly how much you have to put on the
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 3: line to even address this in a court. Like, I
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 3: don't think that that was the, I think that this
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 3: case would have gone that way either way. Yeah.
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 4: And I think it is interesting that kind of the
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 4: arguments you see people making about, you know, during kind
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 4: of this period and other periods when it was possible
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 4: to use new technology to broadcast trials in some way,
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 4: especially live, this idea that you know, it'll shed light
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 4: on the whole process and it'll discourage corruption and it'll
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 4: educate the people. And I feel like now in the
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 4: world that we live in, it is so sort of
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 4: everyday to have the trial as entertainment that it seems
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 4: sort of quaint to think of it that way. And
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 4: yet it is, that is also true. Like I do
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 4: choose to believe that at least that, you know, And
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 4: also it's then true that whatever you offer to people
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 4: for education, they can then turn around and use as
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 4: entertainment in perhaps a pretty ghoulish way or that they
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 4: can use media that you're offering them to challenge their assumptions.
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 4: They can use to back up their own assumptions if
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 4: they're determined enough to do it. And just the sort
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 4: of lack of control that you have over how people
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 4: use that information is pretty humbling, I guess.
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, 100%. The last thing that I think is worth acknowledging,
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 3: and this isn't a criticism of the movie, really. I
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 3: think that there actually is a value in showing a
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 3: rape case that ends to the victim's satisfaction. The outcome
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 3: in the accused is not the outcome in the Cheryl
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 3: or Rujo case. The outcome in the Cheryl or Rujo
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 3: case is kind of, well, not exactly flipped. But that
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 3: the assailants themselves were found guilty, but the witnesses were
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 3: found not guilty. And then there was a huge wave
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 3: of protests in the streets of New Bedford, again, in
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 3: favor of the rapists. Yay! They said, innocent, innocent, innocent.
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 3: But anyways, just to speak to, because I know the
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 3: bystander topic is so focused on in the accused, that's
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 3: not how it went in the Arujo case and Tragically,
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 3: Cheryl and her daughters, so the other, obviously, one of
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 3: the clear risks of being doxxed is Cheryl's safety, but
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 3: she also had two young daughters. And after her name
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 3: was publicly aired, after she was assured it would not be,
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 3: she was immediately, you know, ostracized in her own community.
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 3: She was born and raised in New Bedford, only place
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 3: she ever lived, but didn't feel safe, especially after the
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 3: case ended. She and her daughters moved to Miami. I'm unclear.
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 3: This has been disputed, so we don't know. But it
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 3: seems like she had substance use issues following this case,
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 3: which who on earth could blame her? And she died
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 3: at 25 in a car crash. So she died in 1986,
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 3: two years before this movie even came out. So I
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 3: think it is very easy to see the direct consequences
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 3: of how this case was handled and even though she
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 3: quote unquote won in that her rapists went to prison,
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 3: but she did not win. This ordeal top to bottom
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 3: ruined her life. And it just, I don't, I'm not
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 3: suggesting that there is a lesson there really, but just,
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 3: you know, a very sort of horrific and grim example
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 3: of how absurd it is to argue that anybody survivor
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 3: of assault would advocate for themselves for attention. You know
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 3: what I mean? Like it's just, it's the amount that
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 3: the assault and the trials that surrounded the assault and
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 3: the public speculation and the having to be on trial
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 3: herself Even if you get the outcome that you go
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 3: to court to get, that does not mean that everything
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 3: is fixed.
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 2: You're still faced with so much scrutiny and just living
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 2: with the trauma.
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like the trauma of the trial on top
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 3: of the trauma of the assault itself. I was aware
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 3: of the case, but I didn't realize that she... passed
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 3: away so, so young. And her daughters have gone on
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 3: to preserve her memory and talk about this as time
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 3: has gone on.
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 2: A few things that struck me about the movie, and
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 2: we've already touched on a few of these things, but
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 2: like we were saying, the movie doesn't focus on how
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 2: much the press was involved in this trial. It is there.
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 2: You do get a sense of this story being becoming
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 2: national news. It's certainly not the focus of the movie.
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 2: It's sort of there in the background. But how anytime
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 2: we see like a news report about this case in
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 2: the movie, it's always centering the defense who keeps saying
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 2: that Sarah is a liar, that there was no crime,
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 2: was no rape. Then the press speculates that the case
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 2: didn't go to trial, like the rape case, not the
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 2: criminal solicitation case, but that that one didn't go to
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 2: trial because Sarah is not a suitable witness for the state.
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 2: So it just, I feel like it sheds light on
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 2: the fact that like the harm that the press can
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 2: and often has on rape culture the scene toward the
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 2: beginning in the hospital struck me because the hospital staff
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 2: are treating sarah in a pretty dehumanizing way like she
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 2: she has.
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah treating her like virginia madsen and candy man
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 4: and she's all covered in dog blood.
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 2: Right and it's it's this series of not super overt
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: victim blaming questions, but not, not that.
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 4: Like when was the last time you had sex? And
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 4: you're like, yeah.
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 2: Have you, have you ever contracted an STI?
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 4: Like, I believe that this could be relevant somehow, but yeah.
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 2: And then when she's being, when Sarah is like receiving
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 2: her pelvic exam, the, the nurse or whoever is saying like, relax,
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 2: you're tensing. And it's like, well, yeah, she was raped.
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 2: moments ago.
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 3: I was also struck by and this is just like
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 3: I don't know what is considered normal here or like
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 3: what because there might be a function for doing this.
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 3: I was like the rape crisis advocate was standing next
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 3: to the nurse and so presumably watching the exam take
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 3: place which I'm.
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 2: Curious if that was Like standard procedure?
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 3: Standard procedure.
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 4: Because that to me is like... Like smoking in a
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 4: courthouse back then.
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 3: Right. Because it's like you want to... I don't know.
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 3: If someone's in this predicament, I mean, I guess you
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 3: just sort of want to see that moment of consent
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 3: because I can also see the value of ensuring that
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 3: the medical professional is treating you fairly and to be
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 3: able to confirm what is seen because... Medical professionals don't always,
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 3: like you're saying, Caitlin, treat rape victims with the appropriate
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 3: amount of care. So I can see the value in
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 3: overseeing the proceedings, but you also just want to sort
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 3: of make sure that she's cool with that. Right.
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 2: So I guess the point that I'm trying to arrive
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 2: at is I feel like this movie highlights the ways
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 2: in which different institutions under patriarchy and rape culture handle
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 2: sexual assault yes such as health care such as the
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 2: press such as the justice system obviously the justice system
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 2: is what this movie primarily focuses on but that all
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 2: of these systems have the potential to and often do
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 2: fail yeah survivors or treat them in a very dehumanizing
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 2: way and then to speak more to the justice system
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 2: aspect of that I found this scene between Catherine and
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 2: Sarah when Catherine goes to Sarah's house for the first
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 2: time to ask her questions as she's trying to build
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 2: this prosecution case. And Catherine starts by asking a series
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 2: of questions. very victim blaming questions. And you think at first,
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 2: and I don't think this is true of Catherine's character,
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 2: but you think at first as if she is asking
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 2: these questions because she believes the validity of these questions,
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 2: such as how much did you have to drink that night?
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 2: What were you wearing? Did you show cleavage, see-through blouse?
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 2: Did you put on a show? What about your criminal record?
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 2: Have you ever had sex with more than one person
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 2: at the same time? And you're like, oh my God.
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 2: And then throughout this, Sarah keeps responding with like, what
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 2: the fuck difference does it make what I was wearing?
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 2: Do you think I asked for this to happen to me? Like,
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 2: fuck you, get out of my house.
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 4: There are better ways to begin that conversation than the
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 4: way she did. Totally.
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 2: Because then you get the sense that she's asking these
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 2: questions to prove a point. The point being... this is
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 2: what the defense is going to ask you. So I'm
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 2: trying to prepare you as your attorney. But yeah, I agree.
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 2: Catherine didn't handle that very well and ask questions that
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 2: were like pretty traumatizing.
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 4: This is, this movie is partly about her growing into
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 4: a girl's girl. Yeah.
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 3: I mean, yeah.
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 3: Which I actually do. Like we've talked about, I, I,
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 3: I think that that's like a worthwhile journey to see. Yeah.
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 3: And I like that because from what I can tell,
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 3: the Kelly McGillis character is sort of made up for
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 3: the purpose of the movie. And there's not a direct
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 3: analog in the same way that there is for Cheryl
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 3: or Rougeau. I think it's like a very valuable thing
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 3: to see like F for women and for lawyers and
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 3: public servants. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 2: Because there were also a couple other women in the
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 2: story worth noting. One of them being Sally, who I
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 2: find to be such a fascinating character.
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 4: All of Sarah's closest friends have variants of her own name.
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 4: Sally the waitress and Sadie the dog.
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 3: Whoa, that's true.
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 4: It's a real Paul Bettany in a beautiful mind kind
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 4: of a situation.
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 2: So many Sarahs.
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 3: That's true.
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 2: But she seems reluctant to talk to Catherine in ways
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 2: that you can potentially understand. But also, she seems like she...
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 2: Knows more than she initially lets on. When you see
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 2: the flashback where, to me, it seemed like she had
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 2: some sense of what was going on and chose to
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 2: leave rather than trying to help Sarah. That might be
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 2: due partly to the scorpion tattoo guy. It seems like
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 2: he turns to Sally to say, like, you're next. And
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 2: then she leaves because she's trying to protect herself. But
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 2: it's just, I guess, I don't know what my point is,
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 2: but just I think it's interesting to show a character
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 2: who you think would try to help her friend, but
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 2: chooses not to in the interest of preserving her own safety,
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 2: just kind of demonstrating the complicated nature of all of this.
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 3: I felt that I appreciated that because that's, I think,
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 3: sort of, to me, the reveal of In the rape scene,
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 3: everything else is stuff that we already know. I think
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 3: the one thing that we don't know is that Sally
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 3: is not exactly telling the truth about her having no
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 3: idea this was going on. Which, to be fair, there
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 3: is a Sally analog in the Cheryl LaRugia case who
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 3: genuinely didn't know what was going on. So that's an
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 3: intentional change. She had left by the time that began.
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 3: So it's inspired by, but not a one-to-one. But yeah,
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 3: and that we see, we're shown why, like you're saying, Caitlin,
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 3: we're shown why even though the movie doesn't excuse it.
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 3: We see that she has two young kids. We see
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 3: that she is working a waitstaff job. We see, we're
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 3: given the explanation as to why she is not willing
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 3: to stick her neck out for her friend, which feels relevant.
• 1:50:24
  Speaker 3: Because again, it's like Sally, I think, is a character
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 3: that probably people saw themselves in.
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 3: And, and makes it so that, yeah, like not all
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 3: bystanders are necessarily can, you know?
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 2: And then there's another woman who we see for the
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 2: first time in the flashback who seems to be hanging
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 2: out with one of the men who would go on
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 2: to rape Sarah. And this woman seems to be jealous
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 2: of the attention that Danny is paying to Sarah. And
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 2: she sees Sarah dancing, quote unquote, provocatively, uh, And her
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 2: actions and words imply that she thinks that Sarah is
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 2: a slut and then leaves because of it. She doesn't
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 2: want to see the quote unquote show that she thinks
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 2: that Sarah is putting on. So I guess my point is, yeah,
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 2: I think this movie does a good job of showcasing
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 2: the different mentalities that are all pretty much byproducts of
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 2: rape culture that people of all genders can harbor, often
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 2: in different ways, but that there are gradients, like shades
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 2: of gray, I suppose.
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 4: I agree.
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 3: And I think the last thing I have to say,
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 3: and this is just, I mean, and again, I know
• 1:51:43
  Speaker 3: that not one movie can do everything, but worth mentioning
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 3: that this movie is very white, especially because it's pulling
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 3: from a story that took place in a far more
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 3: diverse area. People talk about, I mean, I will never
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 3: stop dying on the Hill of the fact that Massachusetts
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 3: is way more diverse than it's portrayed in media, but
• 1:52:05
  Speaker 3: that it is a very white movie and that non-white
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 3: women are disproportionately affected by sexual violence. And so there
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 3: is this tendency that is not the fault of any
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 3: one survivor that that white women's stories tend to be
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 3: centered in these discussions. This was a big component of
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 3: how we talked about Me Too. And so I think
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 3: it's worth mentioning that. And I also... think that that
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 3: decision was very likely a strategic one going back to
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 3: what you were saying before sarah of like this movie
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 3: was like so unlikely that it was going to get
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 3: made it almost didn't see the light of day and
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 3: i feel like that unfortunately because of how media around
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 3: sexual violence works they quote-unquote played it safe where they
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 3: could where they centered whiteness And men are at the
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 3: top of the production on paper, even though Sherry Lansing
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 3: and Don Steele are really the people who make it happen.
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 3: I'm so glad that this movie exists. Don Steele also,
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 3: this is a totally separate thing, but just a fascinating person.
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 3: She unfortunately died in her early 50s, but the three
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 3: movies she pushed through that aren't this, are Flashdance, Top Gun,
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 3: and Fatal Attraction. Oh my God.
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 4: She was all.
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 3: Over the damn place.
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 4: So we would be living in a totally different world
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 4: if not for her.
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 3: She really, and she wrote a memoir that I am
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 3: actually kind of curious about.
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 4: Great title.
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 3: They Can Kill You, But They Can't Eat You. Wow. Okay.
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 3: I just, I think this was my first time learning
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 3: about her Oh, Sister Act 2, Back in the Habit
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 3: as well.
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 4: Let's not forget Honey, I Blew Up the Kid, Cool Runnings. Oh, great.
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 3: She just was. Oh, and she also dated Richard Gere
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 3: pre-fame and Martin Scorsese post-Isabella Rossellini divorce. So I just
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 3: wanted to introduce a new diva into the chat. And
• 1:54:16
  Speaker 3: I want to read They Can Kill You But They
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 3: Can't Eat You.
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 4: I want you to read that to me. I would,
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 4: I would be so happy to. Okay. Thank heavens. Yeah.
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 4: And I, I guess this is, um, I don't know this,
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 4: the story of this, how this movie got to us
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 4: also feels like proof that in industries controlled by men,
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 4: including law and entertainment and law, law entertainment, I guess
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 4: men will never stop claiming that something clearly for women
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 4: is for nobody.
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 3: Um, Yes.
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 4: Because they don't think anything is happening inside of women's heads,
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 4: I guess. And therefore, why would we need movies? And
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 4: they will like they will never not be surprised. And
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 4: so at least that's consistent.
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 3: Yay.
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 2: Is there anything else anyone wants to talk about?
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 3: I love Jodie Foster. I love Jodie Foster, too. And
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 3: I guess I love Kelly McGillis now. I have a
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 3: new appreciation for her.
• 1:55:15
  Speaker 4: Also, her character is supposed to be 29. What? I know.
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, she says she was born in 59.
• 1:55:21
  Speaker 4: I feel like that's based on the Hollywood law that
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 4: no one, or I guess 28, actually, if it's set
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 4: in 87. I know that no one in a movie
• 1:55:28
  Speaker 4: is allowed to be over the age of 30, except
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 4: for like Sharon Moonstruck, but this is a big case
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 4: for her to, at such a young age.
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 2: I didn't realize that.
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 4: She needed to spend a few years at legal aid
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 4: or something and, you know, and then maybe work her
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 4: way up to this, but whatever. She's, she did a
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 4: good job ultimately, I suppose.
• 1:55:49
  Speaker 3: I guess the last thing I wanted to share from the,
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 3: from the oral history was that, I mean, that, At
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 3: least for the people involved in this film, making this
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 3: movie was an extreme net positive. Kelly McGillis says that
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 3: as of 10 years ago, there were still people who
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 3: had come up to her, mostly women, who cited seeing
• 1:56:09
  Speaker 3: the movie and the movie's success as a reason that
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 3: they felt either motivated to, if not pursue justice in
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 3: a conventional sense, speak about it with people. So I
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 3: think that this is definitely a... an under discussed stepping
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 3: stone movie toward what you would hope would be more movies.
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 3: But I do think, you know, stuff like the accused,
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 3: I don't know. Do you get, I may destroy you
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 3: if you, if you don't have the accused, like I,
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure. Um, I think that it definitely has
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 3: an important place in history and just one more Don
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 3: Steele fact, because I'm now obsessed with her. This is
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 3: a quote from Jonathan Kaplan that I'm just like, Oh
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 3: my God.
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 3: Don was pregnant when we were getting ready to shoot.
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 3: Then she was let go from Paramount during the shoot
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 3: fired while she was in labor. That's, that's the environment
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 3: we were dealing with at the time. So it's just
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 3: the director trying to say everyone was so misogynist that
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 3: it was like you had to be there, um, getting
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 3: fired from your executive job while in labor.
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 4: So just to, yeah. Oh my God. Well, wow.
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 3: Let's, let's sit with that.
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 4: And yet we still got the movie. We still got
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 4: the movie.
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 3: I mean, it seems kind of like a miracle that
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 3: we did. Um, Yeah.
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 4: I wonder what that baby is up to right now.
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 3: Oh, I hope she's well.
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 4: I hope she's well.
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 3: She also, yeah, also her dad was a bodybuilder. Like I,
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 3: who knows? A lot of interesting stuff with her.
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 4: Donna Steele.
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 3: Donna Steele. Her last name wasn't Steele. Her dad just
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 3: went by Man of Steel and she's like, okay, I'm
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 3: using it. She sounds awesome, dude.
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 4: I have no idea if you're kidding or not.
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 3: No, it's true.
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 2: It's true.
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 3: Oh, really?
• 1:57:50
  Speaker 2: I thought you were kidding.
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 4: This is like when you told me that Pilates was
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 4: invented by a guy whose last name was Pilates.
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 1: No.
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 4: Oh, my God.
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 3: That's my favorite detail ever. Joseph Pilates is like, sure.
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 4: Hey, it's me, Joe Pilates.
• 1:58:04
  Speaker 3: No, no her her last name was tarlo and then
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 3: she's like actually it's steel yeah which anyways she's fascinating
• 1:58:12
  Speaker 3: um does it pass the vectal test yes yes it
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 3: does it.
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 2: Does a lot a lot absolutely as far as our
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 2: nipple scale goes where we rate the movie on a
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 2: scale of zero to five nipples based on examining it
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 2: through an intersectional feminist lens This movie feels ahead of
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 2: its time for me.
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 3: I agree.
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, there are so many parallels between what happens
• 1:58:36
  Speaker 2: in this movie and the current conversation around the Cornell
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 2: case and many, many other rape and sexual assault cases.
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 2: One would hope that this movie from almost 40 years
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 2: ago wouldn't feel so relevant and familiar today, but... Unfortunately,
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 2: history just keeps repeating itself and so many people have
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 2: learned nothing when it comes to what consent is and
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 2: how not to victim blame and just the horrors of.
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 4: Rape culture in general.
• 1:59:05
  Speaker 2: So that doesn't feel great. We didn't talk much about this,
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 2: but I appreciate that it also examines how class plays
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 2: into people trying to invalidate Sarah as a witness and
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 2: as a survivor including it seems to some degree her
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 2: attorney Catherine but then Catherine comes around but um yeah
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 2: I appreciate that class is examined but yeah there's there's
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 2: just so many interesting things about this movie the brutal
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 2: rape scene at the end I wish had been handled
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 2: differently but also there are probably many People, parentheses men,
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 2: who need to see something like that to understand. Yeah.
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 2: All this to say, I think I'll give it three
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 2: and a half nipples. And I'll give them all to
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 2: Jodie Foster. The end.
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 3: I'm going to give it four, I think. I think, given...
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 3: I'm grading it, I guess, on a curve, given its time.
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 3: I had a hard time with the rape scene, but
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 3: I guess... That makes... I, yeah, I don't, I don't
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 3: really have anything else to say, but I just want
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 3: to say to listeners who are, who are struggling right
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 3: now and struggling to figure out what their, where, where
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 3: their head is at. And, you know, on top of
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 3: whatever your personal stuff is, just that, that I think
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 3: very painful deja vu of seeing these processes happen over
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 3: and over that it's like, you know, stay angry, Protect
• 2:00:52
  Speaker 3: your peace and stay angry, I think. We can do
• 2:00:59
  Speaker 3: these things at the same time. It's a long fight.
• 2:01:04
  Speaker 3: So I'm going to give four nipples. I'm going to
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 3: give one to Jodi, one to Kelly, one to Dawn,
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 3: and one to Sherry, the four women who kind of
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 3: make this movie possible. Nice.
• 2:01:16
  Speaker 2: Sarah, how about you?
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 4: I think, yeah, the same. Four nipples on a curve,
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 4: but I'm going to give all mine to Jodie Foster
• 2:01:22
  Speaker 4: because I'm very biased.
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 2: Well, Sarah, thank you so much for joining us. Again,
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 2: difficult conversation. So we really appreciate your willing to do this.
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 2: And we appreciate all you do. So thank you so much.
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 3: We love you. We love you.
• 2:01:40
  Speaker 4: I love you both. Thank you so much for having me. Always. Yeah,
• 2:01:45
  Speaker 4: I'm just glad to be all here together in this moment,
• 2:01:48
  Speaker 4: even if we are on the same log.
• 2:01:51
  Speaker 3: As before.
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 3: We come to this place to feel like shit.
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:02:00
  Speaker 3: Of course.
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 2: Where can people check out your work, follow you online.
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 4: Et cetera? Oh, you can check out my work over
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 4: at You're Wrong About. It's a podcast about all kinds
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 4: of history that I find interesting, including the stories of
• 2:02:17
  Speaker 4: maligned women. And Jamie just did some bonus episodes with
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 4: me talking about The Memoirs of Mary Jo Buttafuoco, a
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 4: book called Getting It Through My Thick Skull. And Jamie
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 4: was so wonderful.
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 3: Sarah, I've just, I don't know, we'll never stop extolling
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 3: how wonderful all of your work is. And just, I
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 3: don't know, your rug about really has like shaped me
• 2:02:44
  Speaker 3: and so many people. And you are so loved. Indeed.
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 4: I'm so happy to just get to, yeah, to get
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 4: to talk about whatever's happening in the world with you.
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 4: And yeah, thank you both so much. Thank you. We
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 4: love you.
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 3: And listeners, we love you. Yeah, it feels weird to
• 2:03:05
  Speaker 3: plug at the end of this. Find us on Instagram.
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 3: Find us on our Patreon, aka Matreon, where you can
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 3: get two bonus episodes a month. That's the best way.
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 4: To support the show.
• 2:03:15
  Speaker 3: And with that, let's have a good lay on the floor,
• 2:03:21
  Speaker 3: shall we? Oh, my gosh.
• 2:03:22
  Speaker 2: Please.
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 4: That sounds amazing.
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 3: Let's have some horizontal time and decompress.
• 2:03:26
  Speaker 4: And if you're Jodi Foster, let me make you lunch.
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 4: I would get up really early to do it.
• 2:03:30
  Speaker 2: Oh, yes.
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 3: And with that, Jodi Foster, get in Sarah's inbox. I know.
• 2:03:36
  Speaker 2: Maybe she'll email me back after almost two decades. Yeah.
• 2:03:42
  Speaker 3: Oh, bye.
• 2:03:43
  Speaker 4: She's been thinking of you this whole time.
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 3: Bye-bye. Bye. The Bechdelcast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 3: and produced by me, Jamie Loftus.
• 2:03:55
  Speaker 2: And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by
• 2:03:58
  Speaker 2: Sophie Lichterman.
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 3: And edited by Caitlin Durante. Ever heard of them?
• 2:04:03
  Speaker 2: That's me. And our logo and merch and all of
• 2:04:06
  Speaker 2: our artwork, in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus.
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 3: Ever heard of her?
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 4: Oh, my God.
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 3: And our theme song, by the way, was composed by
• 2:04:14
  Speaker 3: Mike Kaplan.
• 2:04:15
  Speaker 2: With vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski. Iconic.
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 3: And a special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo.
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 2: For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree.com.