Latest / Automated with Brian Heater / Karen Panetta on Digital Twins, Inclusive AI and Engineering for Impact

Transcript

Karen Panetta on Digital Twins, Inclusive AI and Engineering for Impact · Automated with Brian Heater

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: I build engines.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like right now, I'm building an artificial intelligent engine.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: I just put them in different vehicles, and those vehicles in different applications that make an impact to humanity or us have some social benefit.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to teach students that even as students, we can take on any challenge.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I specifically took on solar because I was interested in it.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: I had zero experience, and I wanted my team to see: look, even I don't know this, but we're gonna do it together and be able to solve this problem.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Young people want to make social impact.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: So when they can see how their skills can be used to make impact and benefit humanity, makes a huge difference.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Have you attempted that startup side of things?
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, multiple, multiple times, yes.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: One of my current company startups is detecting pathogens on your food using imaging.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: The firefighting and traffic management is another one.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then I had a whole underwater company looking at the health of marine life as well as underwater structures.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: So we use all these different applications, and some of them do become startup companies.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Last time we were talking about biases and physical AI.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: There are all these companies right now out there moving like really quickly.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: What can actually be done to address some of these concerns?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: This week we are speaking with professor of electrical and computer engineering at Tufts, Karen Panetta.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: She has a fascinating career.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: We're about to dig into.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: She's worked with a number of humanitarian and ecological efforts, as well as being one of the pioneering forces behind the digital twin.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much to her.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks to you as always for tuning in.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: If you have been enjoying the podcast, the easiest way to support us is by liking, subscribing, telling a friend.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: I would also encourage you to check out our newsletter of the same name.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: You can do that over at automated.fm.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: For now, stick around and enjoy this conversation with Karen Panetta.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's a fun one.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me a little bit about Thatcher Island.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you've been looking at my website.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: I've been looking at footnotes.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: I've been doing a little research.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: I've been digging in a little bit.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: I it I saw a little bit about Thatcher Island, but I want to know more about the island and more about your involvement with it.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I look out the window and I can see it.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I discovered it.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a good reason to get involved.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's a very good reason.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I discovered Thatcher Island um years ago when I, you know, when I was looking for projects for community-based projects to be able to apply like solar energy.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: So Thatcher Island is the last operating twin lighthouse in the United States.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: And at the time I got involved, they had sent out a notice that they might lose their designated historic status because you know, back in the 1800s, 1700s, it was powered by the lighthouses were powered by whale oil, which thank goodness we don't use anymore.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: But they were using a 6,000-foot underwater cable to power the lighthouses.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it wasn't using any sort of solar power.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And they couldn't afford to do that anymore.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And the the they would have to hire divers because the cable would sever and they didn't like paying to heat the ocean.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we decided, Jay, uh, you know, if they're gonna lose their historic status because they can't afford to do this, why aren't they using solar energy?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I approached the Thatcher Island Um Association, a nonprofit, and I said, Hey, I'll come in with my students and we will install, you know, solar uh solar systems for you.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I met with them and they said, Well, we also have two houses, keepers' houses on the island.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: One is a museum and the other is a keeper's house, and those we need energy in as well.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: And they also had a golf cart that they used.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and every year that they would come out, they'd say, We try to restart it, and you know, it doesn't work, and the batteries, you have to replace the batteries.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, Okay, well, we'll we'll power the houses, we'll do triple charges for your um, you know, the the the cart, and then we will make you uh uh the lighthouses themselves work off of solar power.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: And they got freaked out because they're like, oh, you know, a bunch of students coming in, gonna destroy our island.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: They get very nervous, and then I they thought we were also gonna install these huge devices, very expensive, which um I came up with and I proposed, of course, I proposed using LED technology, which at the time was relatively new, and you know, oh, what's this new fangle technology that's gonna break?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: What year are we talking about?
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: We were probably talking around 1998.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, or maybe 2000.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so it was like, you know, this is LED.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we came up with a design of all LED light, it lighthouse beacons, and it ran off of essentially a you know, a two by three panel to a car battery, deep cycle car battery, lawnmower battery, I would say.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: And they were shocked.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: They were like, really?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: This is it?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Yeah, this is it.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: So that was the that was easy for the lighthouse, the lighthouses, but then the houses themselves, we had a, you know, we had some coffin-sized batteries to power the the houses with the solar panels that they already had installed.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we did those projects, and we also did the trickle charger on the roof so that over the winter the battery was trickle charging, just like your lawnmower.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: So we used some of those devices as well.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then they also had a reservoir where they collected fresh rainwater, you know, lots of birds out in Thatcher Island.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we looked at that as well as like, well, you know, they have the youth groups come out and camp out there, and I'm like, I wouldn't want my kid drinking and showering with that water.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we talked about ways to remediate and clean the water as well.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: But it's interesting because Thatcher Island has the best wind maps off of the state of Massachusetts, off of all New England, actually.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: So wind and wave power, it would and wave power too, because of the differential of the high tide, low tide.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: So this is just a rich renewable energy plethora of opportunities.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, people poo-poo wind because they say they don't like the looks of the windmills, but really, for Thatcher Island, it was nothing about what the the look and feel, it was more about nesting birds.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we learned that nesting birds will not nest near vibrations.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: So we learned about nature, we learned about renewable energy, and uh we did it, and that it's the same design that's used across all of the lighthouses now in the United States.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I always joke that that was designed by a bunch of 19, 20-year-old students.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: So this is an aside, but um I guess it's not an aside because it's it's it's directly related to things you were talking about.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm I'm really curious.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: We've let's just say without going into too much detail, we've heard a lot of talk uh with over the past decade about birds and wind power and windmill and windmills.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like is is that overstated, the danger to birds with wind power?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that they're gonna be chopped up by the propellers.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's you're affecting their ecosystem for breeding.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's really what it is.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: You're affecting their ecosystem for breeding, but you also have to remember that there's discharge of or these things take a lot of oil, you know, the the there's a lot, especially here on the ocean.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you're also, you know, you you could have spills and things like that, but it's really about making sure that you're not interrupting their breeding and the uh and their health.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's it.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say that it's misunderstood or misdirected, because like I thought, oh, they don't want windmills because people don't want their beautiful views affected of the ocean, or but they uh the birds get chopped up in the propellers.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, no, it's it's the vibrations that come on the ground.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm gonna say probably misdirected is probably a better word than misunderstood, but again, that's a that's a bit of an aside.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um there is a great picture of you with some of the work that you've done, and you're um standing with a group of young women in front of a uh a solar-powered car from many years ago.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: We've got a very good editor, I think he'll be putting it on screen right now.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in in and around all this work that you've been doing uh around like vision and and and robotics and computer science, how did you get involved in all of this solar work?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, one of the biggest things when I got to my institution, I was the first woman, you know, every time you did an engineering, I was like the only first female professor these students I had had.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: When I got there and I wanted to be a mentor for other students, men and women, I had no women.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it was like, all right, where are they?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then I realized electrical and computer engineering, computer science is still the least representative fields.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Even today, electrical engineering is still the least representative field for women.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I understood why biomedical engineering or you know, or chemical engineering or environmental types of engineering are really popular with youth, and it's because they could make, they could see the social impact.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna come up with new, you know, cures for cancer, I'm gonna do robots that help people walk, or do assistive devices, uh, you know, but but electrical engineers, you know, they they think we fix your microwaves, you know, they don't think about that we do the communications.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I wanted to teach students that even as students, even just the basic skills that we have of how we look at problems, how we can interact with the people we want to serve, that we can take on any challenge.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I specifically took on solar because I was interested in it.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: I had zero experience, and I wanted my team to see, look, even I don't know this, but we're gonna do it together, and we're gonna do it as a collective team, and we're gonna take on these challenges and be able to solve this problem.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we did.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: So we you know did our first solar car, and actually, Thatcher Island was the result of that because when I was done, my team was like, so we learned how to do solar, and now what?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Can I get a job building solar cars?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it really wasn't about the solar car, it was about learning the skills.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: So they learned field program gate arrays, they learned about you know um uh safe driving, they learned all about road conditions, they learned about vision.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh you have to have the vision of these things and safety.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: They learned so many different aspects of it that it that when Thatcher Riley came around, I was like, okay, we now understand solar, let's translate, you know, just transfer those skills to a different application.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I usually tell people, I build engines, like right now I'm building artificial intelligent engines.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: I just put them in different vehicles, and those vehicles are different applications that make an impact to humanity or have some social benefit.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: So the uh, and and then after that, um, just as a record, every young woman that participated in my NeuroGirls programs within three years of graduating with their bachelor's degree went on to graduate school.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I have like a 99%, and that's unbelievable across the United States.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: The average for women in in these in STEM fields for graduate programs is less than 21% across the United States.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: And and what do you attribute that to?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: Just just this sort of engagement or this um you being able to see uh affecting a real world change?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Young people want to make social impact.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: So when they can see how their skills can be used to make impact and benefit humanity, makes a huge difference, makes an incredible difference.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, that that's something that all students want.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why young women is particularly attracted to fields like the environment or things that they see the immediate long-term impact that they can contribute to.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think that having that real world experience also prepares them, gives them the skills and competencies and confidence that they can succeed in engineering.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the things I saw, for instance, is when I had to teach circuit theory, which was like, eh, I don't want to teach circuit theory, oh, you know, um, if I don't find it exciting, how can I, as a teacher, instructor, make it exciting for them?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: And and really the way to make it exciting was making the projects more realistic and impactful.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's fair.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: And and and I think that that is a kind of an issue maybe with that a lot of uh young people, but people in general have connecting with education in general, is that uh we tend to kind of abstract it out too much, right?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Is that we're being taught all those these things, but we're not no one ever teaches us why we're taught those things.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which we're learning.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think what I looked at is we're teaching you tools.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I I remember one brilliant young woman that I had.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: She worked with me on Thatcher Island, had done the solo project, went off to work for an internship one summer, and she came back and she she was gonna graduate, and she said, Um, I I wanna I want you to do a reference for me.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to um go into product management.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, or sales, it was sales.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, What happened?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: This is the young lady that wanted to go to grad school for whatever.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: I said, What happened?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: She said, Well, I went into an internship, and this guy that I work with from an Ivy League school told me that I was too pretty to be an engineer and that I'd be because I could talk, I'd be much better suited in sales.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I did a nasty thing.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: I said, You're not getting a letter of recommendation out of me.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: She started to cry.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: She was like, Why have you been my advisor for so long?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Look, I've been working with you for four years, and you work with some bonehead for for what, four weeks, and you let them get in your head to tell you what you he doesn't know you, they don't know you, they don't know your capabilities.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: But because you have the whole package, because you're good looking and you can communicate, you're not cut out for engineering.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I'll tell you what.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: I said, you interview for I maybe I said four or five different jobs in engineering.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: And if you come back afterwards and you tell me that the opportunities are better for you to become in sales, I said, I'll do you a lot of recommendation.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: She came back, she's not like the director of a major, a major company uh doing the um doing Homeland Security and I mean in charge of all the cybersecurity protocols.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just like, and I joke with her about this all the time, and she's like, thank goodness you didn't listen to me.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, here's like a here's a dirty little secret is that being good looking and being able to communicate are are gonna be benefits in just about any field that you go into at the end of the day.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: So you might as well pursue the one that you wanted to pursue in the first place.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the one that's gonna give you a better livelihood and make you money.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, but but I I would I just that was a a real wake-up call to me just to understand how strong peer pressure is on young people today to want to please and not in and that was the other thing we used to do.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: We used to take that that solar car out to schools with my nerd girls.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: We used to take it out to schools and show it to other kids at in schools.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember one of the most profound ones we did was to a high school.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Normally I would do like middle schools and the really young ones, but we went to a high school, so we got juniors and seniors, and so they were closer in age to my team because they were, you know, sophomores and juniors in in college, and they were closer in age to my team.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: And what happened was when we went, all the girls in the school, the school girls would step back, the boys clamored to the car.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: They were challenging my girls technically, which they could technically destroy them because they had worked and built this car.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: And the girls sat back, you know, looking uncomfortable, trying to look really cool, but you know, um, but when they saw that their male peers were enamored with my team and that interacting with them and found them really cool, that wow, these girls are, you know, yeah, they're drop-dead gorgeous, but by the way, they're really smart.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: And once that element of, hey, wait a minute, they they are actually liking that these girls are smart, that they're showing that they're not just pretty, but they're smart, but they're well-rounded, and that they're giving them grief right back to them.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: They they the girls pushed the boys out of the way and like, let me have that car and I'll show you what I can do with it.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and it was almost to show, like, yeah, once they we showed that it was cool to be smart and their brains were beautiful, and it didn't matter what you looked at, if you have passion, you can do it.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: They they really woke up, and that was a wake-up call for my team.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't realize how bad that people want to be uh um, you know, included and how how important it was for them to be accepted by their peers.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: And we see that now on social media all the time.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Something I I I'd love to get your uh perspective on is you know, you've obviously you've had this great career and and you've also been able to carve out this place for yourself where you've been able to continue to pursue these causes that you're interested in and passionate about.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: But um, you know, in a lot of cases, I'm sure that you've had a lot of these students come through who are passionate, who want to change the world, and then enter the real world, and then all of a sudden it becomes very difficult to like find a job and do something professionally and still be um you know committed to that in the same way, because oftentimes like changing the world for the better and making a livable salary, like those two things don't always tend to overlap.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, how how how do you maintain that that passion, um you know, continue to affect positive change and like you know, actually make a a living?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's that that's really a good point because a lot of the projects that I picked up, Brian, you know, um weren't money projects.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like the electrolarynx device project, you know, less than 5,000 people in the United States have their vocal cords removed.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: And people say, well, there's not a lot of money in that.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Why would you waste your time on that?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like, because it's a population that everybody's neglecting because there's no money in it.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of the applications I picked, even firefighting, you know, using some of my vision technology to help firefighters see in the dark and have the commander know exactly where all the entire personnel is in a burning building, it that's that to me, they're like, you know, rescue personnel don't make a lot of money and they can't afford these devices.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, why why aren't you addressing why am I addressing that?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: So the large impact projects don't necessarily make money, but they're the right thing to do.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's it's at the heart of you know what my whole philosophy has been.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: The young people that we get in that really do want to make change in the world, you you hit the nail on the head, you know, they get out and they're like, wow, I'm you know, I'm not making them well, engineers, I'm sorry, but my engineers do go out and make a lot of money.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: But if they can't, they it's but it's not the dream job that they thought they'd be doing, right?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh a lot of them might say, This is I'm I I I don't want to sit at a computer, I don't want to, you know, be in the dark, I don't want to be programming all day.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there's there's a lot of aspects of it that they're not used to.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And what I always say to them is, you know, while you're developing, life is it's not linear.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you don't get from here to, you know, a bazillion here, and maybe some of them do, but you know, in in in two years, but but it's not linear.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: You you set a goal and then you navigate, you know, you're you steer the ship towards the goal, but it's the successes and little wins along the way of how you get there, and it's not linear.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the examples I give them is to engage in the professional society.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I I am a huge proponent of IEEE, and the reason I am is because it's uh you know, 500,000 members around the world, a lot of students, lots of young professionals.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: I got to do projects in India, you know.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I got to do projects around the world to better communities and work with disabled children.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I get to work with uh, you know, Malawi and orphanages for young girls.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Getting those opportunities and getting to interact with those populations, you don't need to do that for pay, but it connects you to people to get you to the next level.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it gives you skills to navigate to the next level.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of my students that participated in IEEE student events or projects with me ended up saying, I want to do my own nonprofit.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: I want to do my own startup company.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna do a startup company that looks at water purification, I'm gonna look at a startup company that looks at using AI and virtual reality to help educate uh autistic children.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and so those opportunities give them the uh more of a perspective of how they can contribute and how they can forge their own futures while they have the day job that pays the bills.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, uh for forgive me, I feel like this is something I should know off the top of my head, again, having visited your websites and and read the footnotes, but have you have you attempted that startup side of things?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, multiple, multiple times.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, multiple, multiple times.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, no.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Matter of fact, you know, um one of my current company startups is uh detecting pathogens on your food using imaging, all my intellectual property.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's one.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I have uh the firefighting I mentioned, and traffic management is another one.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then I had a whole underwater uh company looking at detection of live aquaculture, looking at the health of marine life, as well as underwater structures of where you put those offshore wind platforms to make sure that you you're not harming the ecosystem, the marine ecosystem, as well as looking at the integrity of bridges in our states and our roads, our rivers when they overflow.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh right now I'm doing one for Maine on counting fish.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, rather than having human beings count fish.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, so so we use all these different applications, and some of them do become startup companies.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, I've I've probably done four or five of them, and I have one, uh two now.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: So, so it sounds like each of them, though, are a case in which you are able to uh to commercialize but not sacrifice um that initial vision.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and I think that's one of the nice things about working at an institution, um, academic institution, is that you know, they preserve my right to continue to do the humanitarian work and the research that I apply so that that that what I create might be commercialized, but I can always use it for academic and community-based types of social impact projects.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I think that and I think that that is an important point as well.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um we gosh, I think maybe just last week we were speaking to Diana Howard over at um OSU.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure you're uh very familiar with her work as well.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, and she's she's done the startup thing too.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I asked her the question of you know, the value that startups have to play and the value that that universities have to play.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: And she obviously said that they both have a role to play.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it strikes me that when it comes to actually moving the ball forward on these kinds of world-changing ideas that have no obvious financial motive, then it it has to be an institution that's in research for the sake of research.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh I get I agree with that in the sense that you know there's things that we get to do, but like I mentioned the electro layering's work, right?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's such there's no the the the total accessible market is so small that it'd be hard to get somebody to invest in that or to start a company that says we're gonna invest in this.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody wants the you know the the big unicorn companies that that's gonna you know reach millions.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so the university has a role in developing foundational, I would say, technology and algorithms that can be built in either either direction commercially, but can also serve.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: The the other thing that universities do really well is work across interdisciplinary boundaries.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I have an appointment, if you believe it or not, in the Dentals Tufts School of Dental Medicine.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing, I'm working with the American Dental Association, helping come up with the standards for their use of AI and dental medicine.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I laugh because it's like I'm not a dentist.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: And at the same time, I I am an AI expert.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: So bringing disciplines together, everybody's gonna be using artificial intelligence, everybody's gonna be using robotics, everybody uses technology, everybody needs cybersecurity.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: We're all worried about health.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be able to cross those boundaries.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I companies oftentimes don't have the resources to do that, but institutions do.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's another reason I love IEEE is because I we have you know 39 different societies.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: And if I have a power and energy problem, I can call you know a friend who's in the power and energy and say, well, how would you solve this?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or you know, can give me examples of of how to do things.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: So being able to have that network to solve problems that are much greater than our own discipline, I don't believe anybody else is better suited to do that than the universities.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: See, I laughed when you said ADA, because if you remember the last time you and I spoke, we were talking about biases in physical AI, and I said ADA, and I was talking about the uh America's Disabilities Act, and you're like, oh yeah, you know, teeth.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: And it was like, and you and your mind went there because you know, you're you're uh working with that as well.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I I I I was not I was not expecting that.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: But I that's a that's a good example of um, you know, of uh and I and I think that this is um one of the things that drew me to robotics.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm like I'm a humanities person, I'm a creative writing major, but something that has been very fascinating to me about getting involved in robotics is the amount of things that it touches and the um the kinds of things that suddenly you have to become an expert at.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I talk to all these startup founders, and it's like, well, you know, I guess suddenly like I have to spend all of my time on a construction site, or suddenly I have to spend all of my time on a farm and learn about agriculture.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's great.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's great like these roles that are kind of forcing people to sort of get out of their comfort zone and learn about different places and parts of the world and different jobs.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I've had to do that.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I had to I had to go into greenhouses and learn how um you know uh produces produce.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: I had to go into um you know hot dog factory factories and see how you know the the standards that they use.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh boy, you actually had to see how the sausage gets made.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: I I yes, yes, yes.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, and and you you have great respect and appreciation for the you know these the the companies I specifically work with, you know, this they are very proud of their safety and quality standards.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you come in and you propose something to them, they really uh uh there's no better um, I would say, someone to road test and really bulletproof your ideas, because they will be able to tell you exactly where their concerns are, where they think you're gonna fail, and and and you know, how and what's not acceptable.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, and even when I work with the departments of transportation, you know, this like say you we we need 24-7 performance.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't, you know, this is not the technology for us.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so most students don't understand that.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, you know, you can't take a B in these applications.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we learned that one of the ones that we learned the most about was um working with patients.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: So one of our funny, one of our most, I would say, unusual projects is we worked with helper monkeys.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that they're they're like like a dog, you know, you have dogs.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like emotional, yeah, yeah.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like no, no, no.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is a monkey that can put the straw, you push a glass, okay, put the paper on your mouth, turn the TV, whatever you need, you know, um, to open the refrigerator, get you something, sort of like uh, you know, but uh which we'd like to have a robot to do.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we worked with these helper monkeys, and part of the problem was the monkeys only responded to the trainer.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: So when they got to use with the patient, they wouldn't lock themselves in the cage at night.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: So we had to come up with voice-activated ways to get treats dispensed to the monkeys so that they would go in the cage and really lock the cage.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: And they're very smart, they they wouldn't close the cage.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: So they're you know, even a well-behaved monkey you don't want running around the house at night.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: And and and that's it.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: And this poor, you know, so these were patients, you know, some of the patients we worked with that were affected with multiple sclerosis, so they they they really could weren't mobile.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have like you were talking about a you know, unruly monkey, which I've heard is like the equivalent of having a a you know a two-year-old uh in your home.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: A two-year-old that can climb really well.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, climb really well and and uh very strong.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you you know how do you work with that?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: So in with our students, when we did this project, we're saying, you know, this this can't fail.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: This has to work because you've got a patient on the other line.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: So taking a B or you know, a B plus is isn't is not.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I think when we learned with industry partners is what is what is required, and in there's there's no negotiation on, yeah, it works sometimes.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: And it's uh one of these organizations that that I I feel like has played um you know, maybe sort of both roles for you and and and and a really uh integral part of your career is uh the Digital Equipment Corporation DEC, which isn't really is kind of like egg stant now.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: You make me feel old.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean, you know, got it got absorbed as like every technology company does, but um you know what what I uh I effectively like what what was it and and what role did it play in kind of helping I guess launch your career?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I you know most students picked where they wanted when I was graduating, everybody wanted to go to IBM.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: That was like the big one.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, but I want I wanted to go to Digital Equipment Corporation.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was just mesmerized by it.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to go there.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: And when I got the job opportunity to interview, and they took us down to see the server room with these giant machines, you know, I was like, oh my God, this is like you know, the amusement park for me.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and I really um really enjoyed the growth there.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's where I learned architecture, but I learned how the real world worked and with machines and uh customers, uh, saw the impact it was making.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things that I really got out of it was that again, that huge network of, I think at the you know, it was 124,000 employees alone in Massachusetts at that time.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: And now the skills I learned there were so transferable, and that's where I recreated that first digital twin.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: But it was used as you know, the tools we use were leading edge.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't publish a lot of it because it was proprietary, but the tools we learned, the skills I learned, the the even the management skills that we learned together and the putting a team together and how we solved really complex problems.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: When I left there to go to academia, and as you said, it was being absorbed by multiple other entities.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: That network of people, because it was such a large population of people, but you know, you use lingo, like one of the my favorite phrases that I learned from them was you know, good, fast, cheap, pick two.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other one was do the right thing.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: So whenever those catchphrases come up, we're like, you worked at DEC.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: You worked at DEC.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: It was either spikely or yeah, yeah.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you worked, you worked at you worked here, but um it it was all like a built-in community, and we still have like a lump and I get togethers, and and they call me the informal historian.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: I just posted like on you know some pictures from the original VAX 8800, which I worked on.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it it's it's a monster machine.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: Back then, you know, I got to fry a clockboard.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: I remember that one because I was doing diagnostics.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: I actually, my job was to break things and I broke it and I actually burned the board.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: And rather than you know, firing me for frying a hundred thousand dollar board, they gave me, they gave me an award because it that that's when I learned it was better to catch it before it got in the hands of the user.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, so that very valuable skills that I then took with me as the first professor that these students ever had that had an industry background.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's so funny, you know, and and again, you've had such a like uh such a varied career.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, for me, you know, the things that excite me, you know, we talked a little bit about the um the work you were doing around elephants the last time we spoke.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: But as I as I was speaking to to some of my coworkers and you know, explaining an interview that I I had coming up, I was like, oh yeah, and she's you know, she's credited as co-creating the digital twit.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: And they're like, oh and that that that now is like I feel like that's sort sort of the thing that you can kind of casually like bring up and mix like at a party and be like, oh yeah, you know, by the way.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it's and and it's and it's and it's really interesting to me, and that is it's something that I want to talk about because it seems like it is something to hear you describe it the way you you talked about it the last time we spoke, it seems like it's something that was um uh developed for one specific per purpose and has really kind of taken on a completely or several completely different lives.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and I think I never really, Brian, I never appreciated that how impactful what I was doing then.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: Even, even I was it's probably it wasn't until I got to work at NASA Langley.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: And when I was there, it was like, you know, I was so used to all software simulators, emulating everything and simulating everything.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: And when I got there and their simulators, we said, oh, okay, well, we'll have you'll you'll work on the software simulator.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: But then by the way, it's it's starting up the jet and propulsion engines, and you're what do you you know, and and I that was like amazing to me that because now you have hardware, software co-simulation with real systems.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: And all I had done was I I simulate the whole system.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I don't I don't I don't connect to the real hardware right now.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's scary, that costs money.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: But and I and that's where I really appreciated like, wow, what I do really does, you know, affect major development of complex systems that we couldn't simulate before.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: We couldn't possibly represent and be able to figure out how they're gonna break before they break or uh have it control real physical hardware.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that was uh an eye-opening experience.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's when I started to appreciate wow, I did some really interesting things.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that that was really impactful.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: And and and we did it, I did it back then.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: We only had one CPU, right?
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that was why we had to be more efficient about it.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: And now I'm joking, I was like, yeah, you got the cloud, you got all these, you know, they got it easy.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: They got threading, you know.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Much more better infrastructure than we had.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's funny, you know, again, this was something that came up uh when we were speaking with uh Dr.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: Hard last week, is she was talking about her uh her doctoral thesis in uh I think it was like maybe 1999.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um and uh she was saying that you know, still like to this day, she'll see citations pop up, you know, and that you know, that stuff that she was doing then, you know, and and indirectly and unintentionally is you know had laid the groundwork for other things.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: And and and this is a fascinating, this is you know a whole other rabbit hole, but it's fascinating to me.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, and insofar as you're able to even touch on this, like what's your sense of how something like that that is developed at one place for a very specific purpose begins to take on all of these different lives?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think we see now, well, I I you know, I I I think I call it back to the future technologies.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I've been classifying a lot of it, because I see a lot of that across, you know, not just with myself, but with other um I will say famous people.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: So we have the IEEE Medal of Honor recipient, which is the highest recognition that someone can get.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: And Dr.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: Assad Madni is someone that I I actually learned this from.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: He worked in aerospace and he came up with, you know, and he also helped fix the Hubble telescope for directional things, but he used uh MEMS technology for control, you know, controlling the telescope, controlling the aerodynamics of aircraft.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: And when he looked at that, he was like, well, with the new technologies coming out, he commercialized it for automotive and he used it for the rollover chip.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, today our cars are safe because he came up with this rollover chip.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: And he also then looked at using the same types of technologies for ablation of um endometriosis for women.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like, okay, healthcare, aerospace, security, automotive, and it was all about taking a technology and downsizing it, making it, you know, using different materials, different uh advances in computing to scale it for different applications.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and and I see that a lot, like um even now for looking at um one of the things that was like you know, replacing a freon or air conditioners, you've got these little tiny air conditioners, and it's it's it's theoretically taking things that were impossible 10, 20 years ago because we just didn't have the materials or compute power to do it, and now we can do these things.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I call them back to the future technologies.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I think the digital twin was, is it it was something that we did for a specific purpose, but the compute power that it needed was so immense back then that you know you couldn't afford to do it as a small business.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: And today, because of the power of computing and the the cost and the downsizing of um that these machines, these powerful machines are available, you can really anybody can do it, and anybody can utilize them for their projects.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: Something that I did want to touch on, and again, this was ostensibly the reason why we were speaking last time.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: We were talking about um we were specifically talking about biases and physical AI, and and I sort of came to the conversation uh thinking about it um in the framework of other conversations that people had had around biases in AI, you know, around things like um like gender and and and ethnicity.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: And and and you had brought up, and this is this is a this is a great point, but you had brought up um uh accessibility is really important when focused on on physical AI.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I'm I'm curious when you know what what kind of role you know you can play in those conversations and what um I suppose like what change you can actually affect with those conversations.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: There are all these companies right now out there moving like really quickly, you know, we're seeing all these technologies come out, entering into the world, people are really excited about them.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what can actually be done to address some of these concerns?
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, I I I'll make the analogy of when toy companies were were making all like these building toys for boys, and yet girls were 50% of the market.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like, you're leaving this population out, and that's a huge market-based view.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden they started doing these design toys for girls rather than just the baby dolls and the nurturing types of things like that.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: And companies need to understand that as well.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: And we even in um when they started doing uh automotive, their their first crash dummies in in minivans was like 165-pound, five foot ten man.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in the in in the United States, the majority of minivan owners or who drivers who purchase them are women.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, uh understanding your market is really essential and understanding that you're leaving populations on the table.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that so that was with gender, but think about with the uh different abilities.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: At some point in our life, I think I've heard the quote that at some point of our life we're all become disabled disabled, whether it's you know, you break a bone, you break a leg, you you know, you get some injury.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, that's a huge population of potential customers that that some of these companies are filtering out, not including, if they're not considering them in the product design, especially in user interfaces.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so this is an interesting point because you know, I think oftentimes we tend to, and we were talking about this before, and certainly there are instances where this is true.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you were talking about the small population of people with their vocal cords removed, for example, but we tend to think of these sort of um these these humanitarian projects and um capitalism and money making as almost being like in conflict with one another.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_02: And and what you're I think getting at here is that that isn't at least that isn't always the case.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: That there are instances in which like simply um you know diversifying and addressing a larger audio larger audience is ultimately going to be better for your bottom line.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll give you an example people with attention deficit disorder and uh people with autism on the spectrum, they're in our they're in our workplaces, they're in our institutions, right?
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say uh and I'm not quoting because I don't know, but let's say you even got 45% of the population has some sort of different abled ability learning.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: I I love everything visual, you know.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I I read, but I love things visual.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and most people have some sort of um, I would say, things that they respond to well.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: If we are only thinking about that one person that has this type of intellectual capability and this is the way they think, you're really limiting the scope of who you're reaching, especially if you want the people that are working and functioning with these disabled or disability different abilities to consider your products.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that they're the first ones that will go somewhere else to someone that will offer it to them.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: And they become in leadership positions and hiring and choose the next products, they're gonna choose the ones that they used that they they felt responded to their needs, and those are the ones that are gonna be in your companies.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the model that when we use our CAD tools or new products for engineering, the vendors that will give you the student discounts that will you know give it to you free for students, they know that if they capture young people early, and this is what they're gonna use and get be familiar with and comfortable with, when they're in uh the purchasing power and have this decision-making power, they're gonna be remembering, oh, this company, I trained with them when I was an undergraduate and I used all their tools.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go with them because their customer service picked up the phone when I called as a student.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go with them.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: That is huge.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, we're we're running uh close to time right now.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: So um I wanted to close on what I think, what I hope maybe is a positive note, you'll let me know on this.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we we we talked a little bit about the about the gender breakdown, about you know how when you first entered the that world, it was just you.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, you alluded to the fact that like even today, there's still a a large discrepancy.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, I've like certainly I've noticed this.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: I've been covering robotics for a long time.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm I'm curious now that uh especially like over the past few years, now that robotics in a lot of ways is entering the mainstream, physical AI is entering the mainstream, um, whether that dynamic, you're seeing that dynamic shifting at all when it and when it comes to not only um you know more gender diversity, but also this kind of understanding that that, yeah, like maybe engineering is something that that can ultimately affect change in the world.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: I I I see the again, the barriers are coming down, that society is becoming more um, I would say, encouraging, that you don't have to be have a STEM background, science technology, engineering background for you to pursue it if your parents didn't come from that background.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: It it's not no longer a limited barrier.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: Which your parents very much did not come from that background.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: That is correct, they did not.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that that's that's an important factor that you have to understand that these opportunities, as and even the the teachers and teaching kids very young, if you are good at math and science, then you can do engineering.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Remove all those filters.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's about creativity, imagination, and determination and motivation.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: You have that, you can do anything.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think emphasizing that we're not one-dimensional, that everybody has talents, whether it's in the arts, music, whatever, those make you a more creative person.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really where the key in the success is.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the math and the science.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's a message that um we we have to continue to get out there and drive.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: That this is this is about individuality and bringing that to harness and work together to make uh impact on the world.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Karen, uh, it's been an absolute pleasure.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_02: And next time we'll actually we'll talk about the elephants next time.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: Next time and rhinos, don't forget the rhythms.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: All of the charismatic megafauna.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: And and jaguars.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're working on jaguars too.
• 45:50
  unknown: All right.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: See you later.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: Bye now.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much to Karen, Panetta, and Tufts.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks to you as always for staying with us until the bitter end.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: Please like and subscribe on the platform of your choosing or multiple platforms of your choosing.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and don't forget to check out the newsletter for more over at automated.fm.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's all we got for you now.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see you this time next week for another episode of Automated.