Latest / Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast / The Murder of James Bulger

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The Murder of James Bulger · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I can never forgive Thompson and Venables for the horrendous, calculated,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: cold blooded murder of James. That's a quote from James
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Bulger's mother, Denise Fergus. Today's case is one of the
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: most horrific cases we have covered to date. It deals
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: with death, assault, and children. A young two year old
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: boy was lured away from his mother and his life
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: was tragically and maliciously taken. This is the story of
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: James Bulker.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: My name's Ben and I'm Nicole, and you're listening to
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Wicked and.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Grim, a true crime podcast. The following podcasts and material
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: intended for a mature audience. Listener discretion advised. Happy birthday, Ben,
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Thank you big old thirty six years old. Around the
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: sun today? Mm hmm, celebrating it right, you're feeling it? Yeah.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: I woke up with a release sore back this morning,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: had to stretch it out, had a good hot shower
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: to help relax those muscles, got moving, felt a little
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: better as the day went on, and it's probably going
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: to repeat itself tomorrow because that's just what happens as
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: you age.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Well. Yeah, I mean, we're also on a road trip
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: and I feel like my body just can't do road
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: trips anymore. My back is just ft.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Fair enough, We've been sitting in the car for at
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: least six hours a day.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: At least, But I mean, I feel like, I don't know,
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: there's got to be tip tips and tricks of how
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: to deal.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: With that better. Oh, I think so, I'm pretty sure
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: the answer is just yoga. And then the bed that
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: we're sleeping on tonight in this hotel, Like, this hotel
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: is phenomenal. It's basically just an apartment, but it's a
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: bit of a firm mattress and I am a side sleeper,
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: so I need a little bit more softer to kind
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: of like conform to my curves of my body.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: You know, how are you going with that? So?
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Boy, Yeah, the firmer mattresses don't do so well for me.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: And yeah, as a result, my back was fucking this morning.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: I actually had the best sleep I think in this
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: bed last night, really, out of all the beds that
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: we've slept in. Yeah, yeah, well on this.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Trip, not our own, gotcha.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: There's nothing like your own bed, nothing like.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Your own bed. It's there's there's no place like home.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: As Dorothy said for the Wizard.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Of OZ right exactly.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: We have some patrons to thank for signing up and
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: supporting us behind the scenes getting that exclusive content. They
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: had a exclusive episode drop for the end of the month,
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: and this week we have one who signed up, and
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: that one amazing individual is Mackenzie.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: Awesome.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much Mackenzie. For McKenzie and supporting us
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: means a lot.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: It sure does.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: Now the murder of James Bulger. This is a rough,
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: rough case and I'm warning everyone now this deals with children,
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: various forms of assaults. It is heavy. It has been
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: on our case for a long time to cover.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: On our list. Yeah what did I say on our case? Oh?
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Sorry, on our list. It has been a case on
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: our list to cover for a long time, and now
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: is the time. So here we are.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: It's been on there a long time. But when we've
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: been putting off because it's it's going to be a
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: doozy and I don't even know much about it.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: It's one that it's up there with some of the
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: worst cases we have ever covered. So you're going to
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: walk away with a fairly heavy heart after this one.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Oh boy, what a good way to end the vacation.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Ben.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: Sorry, well, are you are you ready to dive in? Oh,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: we should say actually, since we are in a road
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: trip right now before we do dive in our audio on,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: this may sound a bit different because we are, like
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: we already said, in a hotel room right now, we
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: have our road trip podcasting here with us. It's a
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: different microphone, different setup to try and muffle some of
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: the echoes. We have the pillows from our bed built
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: up around us at the moment to try and give
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: us somewhat of a studio sound. So it might sound different,
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: but we'll be right back to our regular sounding episodes
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: next next week.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: So with that said, now, are you ready to give
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: into this episode? Okay?
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Now? Or never? So let's do it?
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Okay? Well. On the sixteenth of March in nineteen ninety
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: in Kirby, England, a baby boy named James Patrick Bulger
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: entered the world, bringing immense joy to his parents, Ralph
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: and Denise. The new parents had previously experienced the heartache
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: of losing a previous daughter who was still born. Now
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: James was a beacon of hope and happiness for the
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: growing family. James was a happy little boy who was
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: blessed with bright blue eyes and a mop of light
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: brown hair. He exuded a very cheerful demeanor, constantly bringing
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: smiles and laughter to his parents face. At twenty five
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: years old, Denise showered her son with constant affection, and
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: she watched over him with extremely watchful eyes like a hawk.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: She had, unfortunately with a stillborn birth before, lost one
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: Chad at one point, and was not prepared to be
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: losing another.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: That's really hard.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: However, tragedy would lurk around the corner. On what would
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: seem like a routine trip to some shops just before
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: James's third birthday.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: On the Friday afternoon on the twelfth of February in
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, Denise took her son James for a
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: shopping excursion at Bootle Strand shopping Center. As the day
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: went on, Denise stepped into ar Tim's butcher's shop for
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: her final errand of the day, and it was here
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: that her attention was momentarily diverted away from her son, James,
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: who was at her side. Tragically, in this fleeting moment
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: of distraction, it proved to be long enough for James
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: to vanish into thin air panic quickly ensued as Denise
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: realized that her son was no longer there, no longer
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: by her side, she couldn't find him. She quickly quickly
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: rushed outside the shop, frantically scanning the surroundings, hoping that
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: she would see her son and the nightmare would end
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: in a simple rush of panic and nothing more. Unfortunately,
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: as the seconds ticked by, and no matter how hard
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: she looked, she still could not find James anywhere.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, that is just brutal, that feeling. I couldn't imagine.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: I can't imagine either, And for her reality began to
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: sink in. It was her worst nightmare that was unfolding
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: right before her eyes. Her son was gone.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was not even three years old.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just about to turn three. Gosh, with no sign
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: of James. The authorities who were summoned to the scene
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: after the they were after the shopping center security team
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: as well. They were like, can you guys get out
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: here help us. You know the layout of the land,
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: let's band together see if we can find him.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, you would think, because you would think he
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: wouldn't be far right.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: Like he's one would think.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, probably within the shopping center.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: So that's what they did. They focused on looking through
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: the shopping center right away, and unfortunately, neither the authorities
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: or the security team were able to locate them locate James.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: With the investigation now beginning, Denise provided a detailed description
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: of her son's attire at the time of the disappearance.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: He was wearing a blue jacket with a hood, silver
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: tracksuit pants, and white trainer shoes. The description was immediately
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: passed along to everyone, anyone who would listen, anyone in
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: the surrounding area, be it authorities or be at public civilians,
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: be it shop owners, anyone who would listen, who's around.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: The description was past. The seconds Denise first felt in
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: the moment of James's disappearance began turning into hours, and
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: by four PM, an officer involved in the search began
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: consoling the absolutely distraught mother while the others continued the search. Finally,
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: the first break in the investigation came when the authorities
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: and security personnel tirelessly poured all through the collected CCTV
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: footage from the shopping center. While going through the different
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: angles from different cameras covering several different shops or hallways,
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: whatever it be, they eventually spotted James. He was seen
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: leaving the butcher shop, in fact, only moments before Denise
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: was seen exiting the butcher shop frantically looking for him,
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: and the footage captured a very heart wrenching moment when Denise,
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: you know, is exactly doing that, panicked looking around hoping
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: to find her son.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: Well, it's a complete nightmare for.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: Her exactly, and she is oblivion to where he is.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: And in the cameras it shows that he's venturing to
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: the upper floor, trailing behind two older preteen boys, with
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: her standing there on the floor none the wiser.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, so was like heading back into the mall
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: with these boys.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: In the mall, but heading up to the second floor. Okay.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: The grainy images from the CCTV revealed the last moment
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: of James before disappearing with the two older boys. One
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: of the boys was holding James's hand, leading him towards
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: the exit, their path directed towards Leeds Liverpool Canal.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: Huh Okay.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: It would be Sunday, February fourteenth, nineteen ninety three, Valentine's Day.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: The day dawned with James now missing for two heart
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: wrenching days. Both police and James's family had exhausted every
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: avenue of their desperate search efforts. Patrol cars had cruised
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: the streets, their loud speakers pleading for end in Press
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: conferences had been held urging the two boys spotted in
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: the Straw shopping center to come forward, and a relentless
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: man hunt had scoured the nearby canals, which was where
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: they were rass headed, and the wastelands. However, any flicker
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: of hope for a joyful reunion was about to be extinguished.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: A breathless young boy burst through the doors in Walton
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: Lane Police station with grim news A body had been
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: discovered on the railway tracks a mere one hundred and
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: fifty yards from the station's rear entrance. One unfolded necks
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: was a horror that put a pit in the stomach
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: of the entire nation. The police were confronted with the
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: grim reality of a murder investigation, faced with a daunting
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: task of tracking down two young boys involved in the
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: chilling events, because right now they stood over the gruesome
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: remains of the dis east two year old James Bulger.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: No, why, why.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: Well, I can't just spill it all right now? We
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: got a story to tell here.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: I am aware of that, but what the actual fuck?
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, his remains were in rough shape as well, which
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: we will get into later. But being on the train tracks,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: he was run over by a train and his body
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: was severed.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: Oh shit, yes, okay, brutal.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: So Following the horrible and tragic news of James's murder,
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: emotions within the Liverpool community reached a boiling point along
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: the bank near where his body was discovered. An outpouring
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: of grief took form in it took the form of
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: hundreds of flowers being laid in tribute to the young
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: life that was lost. Among them, chillingly was a bouquet
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: placed by someone who was actually who would actually later
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: be idea as one of James's own murderers. Oh yeah,
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: kind of almost disgusting, almost soiling the entire tribute itself,
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: really right, But still, regardless of this dark piece finding
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: its way in the memorial, the sea of flowers stood
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: in James's name, which is kind of We just covered
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: a case on Patreon where an individual offered condolences to
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: a family when he in fact was the one who
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: did the killing, so it's very similar in this instant
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: that the perpetrator is the one doing this act of
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: quote kindness if you will, to the family who's lost
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: a loved one.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think like it's not uncommon for
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: at funerals for investigators to go if the person who
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: died was murdered, right, because chances are they maybe knew
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: their murderer or the murderer is there in attendance at
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: the funeral exactly, So beyond disturbing.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so they're there for not only of course paying respect,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: but investigative purposes as well. Yeah, they could even be
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: watching people's faces and their reaction to the memorial, like
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: why is that person not crying? Why is that person
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: crying as much as they're crying, like things like that, looking.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: For those cues or who's here and why would they
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: be here kind of thing.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: And yeah, yet one hundred percent. Now, as the community grieved,
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: the authorities were hard working at the case, trying to
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: make any lead that they could to figure anything out.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: With only the grainy images from the CCTV cameras capturing
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: James's subduction, the police were left with very little to do.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: Determined though, to track down the two older boys seen
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: leading him away from the shopping center, though, they began
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: attempting to enhance the footage to hopefully, in any way,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: shape or form, discern the two and come up with
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: an identity. Thankfully, the community rally behind the authorities and
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: gave anything they could as far as information, you know,
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: what they had seen or heard on you know, anything,
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: basically whatever they could do to help make an arrest. Unfortunately,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: this turned out one instance, on Tuesday, February sixteenth, due
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: to information that was passed on to police, they made
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: an arrest. But unfortunately, like I said, this turned out
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: to be a false lead, and it was an innocent boy,
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: someone who had given some information, be it false or
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: whether they mistook identity, whatever the situation, it was unfortunately
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: an innocent individual. He was not one of the individuals
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: seen on the footage. However, with the community so wound
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: tight over this incident, and I mean understandably so, and
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: the witness and there was witnesses who saw the arrest,
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: people began to talk and draw on conclusions. So this
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: is actually an innocent boy who is not involved whatsoever.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: But the community now ceases kid as someone who was
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: arrested and he must be the one who who did
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: something was responsible just.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Being like spread like wild wildfire, and then.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: It became a witch hunt of sort, with an angry
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: public wanting to seek retribution for James and the innocent boy,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: who is now set free from the police after being
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: found innocent, had to leave his home with his family
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: for fear of their own safety.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, that is not okay though, no.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: No, need, it's not. It's an unfortunate situation and it's
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: not something super important to the story, but I did
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: want to keep it in here to drive home the
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: importance of like the moral of this. Yeah, it's a
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: classic two rights don't make a wrong if they if
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: they stayed in their home, they very well could have
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: turned out to be two innocent young boys who could
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: have lost their life in this story. But they fled
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: for their own safety and thankfully they remained safe. But
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: it's unreasonab that it's unreasonable.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, it makes it does make sense, but it
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: doesn't make sense. And I'm almost kind of thinking to
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: the police, maybe, you know, I should have communicated something
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: in a better way of sorts because that But what
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: do they do?
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: I guess, well, I mean, yeah, you can only hold
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: someone for so long, Right, they have no evidence to
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: hold this kid, so he they let him free, Then
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: what do you do?
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: And people just took took the rumor and ran kind
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: of exactly.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: Even if you do a press conference, you can't have
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: a press conference with cameras and news sources, like as
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: someone is walking out the door. You've got to get
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: fact straight. You got to set stuff up like it
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: takes time.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's too bad though.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So anyways, I wanted to drive that moral home
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: that the two wrongs thing don't make a right, so
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: it don't take like, don't take these things into your
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: own hands. You know, the law generally speaking, anyways, not
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: always as we know in this show, generally speaking, will
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: at least do its best to try and make those rights.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: But anyways, I digress. So while this was all going on,
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: a woman seemed to recognize the grainy figures from the
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: footage that was released, and she recognized them as Robert
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Thompson and John Venables, known as two young troublemakers in
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: the area. Now, quick check of the school registry would
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: actually provide a very solid alibi for the two, right,
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Like if they're in school, their attendance is there, then
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: how could they have been the ones at the mall right?
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: Unfortunately this confirmed their absence from class that very same
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: day when James had vanished.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: Oh boy, they.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: Were not at school. So it was on Thursday, February eighteenth.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: The police decided they needed to act quickly on this
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: new information. Undercover officers in playing clothes and unmarked cars
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: were dispatched to arrest both the boys. Because they learned
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: from that first incident, they wanted to keep this as
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: quiet as point.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Okay, they learned from that. That's good. Yes, that's something
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: you can only ever hope for.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so they wanted to keep it quieter than last time.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: What if it's a mistake, even if it's not, you
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: want to make sure that you you deal with this
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: properly and that it doesn't explode into something more.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, what's the saying innocent until proven guilty?
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Exactly? So. Robert Thompson was a ten year old boy.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: He was with his mom and two or sorry, he
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: lives lived with his mom and two younger brothers. Now
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: interestingly enough, which I and me play some insight into
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: Robert's upbringing and behavior. His four older brothers had all
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: been taken into foster care. So he had lived with
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: you know, his two younger brothers, but he had four
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: older ones. They don't live with him anymore. Foster care
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: sort of situation, right, So might provide some insight. And
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of psychology stuff behind this case that
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: people talk about, but we're not diving into that, but
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: just a little tidbit for food for thought. So upon
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: arrival for Robert Thompson's arrest, the police quickly noted the
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: proximity of his house and just how close it was
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: to the scene where James's body was found. Rather close. Now,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: John Venables was also ten years old, and he came
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: from a family with divorced parents since he was only
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: three years old when his parents would ultimately that from
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: then on share joint custody of him and his two siblings.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: When police arrived to arrest him, he had appeared at
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: the top of the staircase before the officers. They were
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: immediately taken aback. Here he stood staring down, you know,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: to the officers as they looked up to him, a
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: possible killer. He was only ten years old and was
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: very unusually small and timid looking for his age. The
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: police are making eye contact with what could be a murderer, Yeah.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: Which would not be what they normally are expecting. Definitely,
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: not someone who did something like that.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: This small child could potentially be responsible for this, yeight.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: And the officer's mind though, it immediately became because of
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: this seeing this, this individual, they're looking at this, like
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: I said, already child, Yeah, they became it became increasingly
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: evident to them basically at this little ten year old
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: boy that they were staring at, I mean now in
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: handcuffs and in their custody, couldn't possibly be the one
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: responsible for what had happened to James. These two boys
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: that they have in custody, how could they be responsible? Right?
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Well? Ten? Yeah, ten years old is very young.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So even when they had these two in custody,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: they were actually still pressing for answers from the public
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: and trying to get more information. They were certain that
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: there must be two older boys out there that they've
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: mistaken these two for, and that they're actually looking for
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: other individuals. But still they're doing their due diligence and
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: they're looking into these two and where they were, and
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: you know, of course what people had said or the tips.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: Or whatever, right, So, yeah, because you think, just off
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: the top of my head that you would be thinking
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: the they would be at least fourteen, like fifteen or
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: sixteen or something and all, not ten.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, these aren't even teenagers. Yeah, they're not even thirteen.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: They're not even twelve, they're not eleven, they're ten. They've
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: just entered enter double digit numbers.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a preteen.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, barely barely a preteen really. So, while dismissing the
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: boys as potential murderers, Superintended and Intendered Intendant Albert Kirby
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: was still ear to question both of them. He and
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: every other single officer involved was convinced that they were looking,
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: as I mentioned, for older teens, but still they pressed forward.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: On Thursday, February eighteenth, the interview with the two boys
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: began the same day of their arrest. Thompson found himself
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: at Walton Lane Police Station, while Venables was taken to
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: Liverpool's Lower Lane Police station. Both boys underwent the process
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: at providing blood, hair and fingernail samples. With this process,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: the police ventured into uncharted territory regarding both questions and investigations,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: since no one had ever interviewed potential child murder suspects before.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Many of their tactics are tailored to adults and how
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: their psychology works, but with children, everything is different, and
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: it left investigators stumped as to how they should really
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: approach the situation.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because you're almost thinking too, you probably have
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: to have like parents consent on so much too. I
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: wouldn't even know how that would work.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Actually, well, I mean there's certain things like that. I
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: don't think consent really matters, because I mean, this is
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: an investigation potential murder. Like rights only go so far
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: no matter what your age is, right, Like, if if
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: you're a murder suspect, it's not like, well, you can't
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: talk to my child. It's my child, I'll discipline as
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: what I mean, that's not how it's going to go
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: on a murder investigation, right I guess.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, just the thought of them taking your kid though, you.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Know, yeah, no fair enough, But I mean that goes
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: with adults. Hey that's my that's my twenty year old,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: eight years old boy, Like you can't do he's innocent? Yeah,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: sure he is, Grandma, So it's the same sort of situation.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Rights only go so far when you commit a crime,
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: so true. But one thing that they really needed to
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: do though, and this was the biggest part of it.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: Whatever they did, they needed to ensure that it was
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: clear that the boys comprehended the gravity of their statements
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: to police, and they understood the distinctions between truth and falsehood,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: you know, right or wrong. That was the biggest thing,
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: ensuring that they understand this, Like adults understand this concept
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: rather easily, of course, aside from like someone struggling with
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: mental health or other issues that prevent certain cognitive understandings.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: But children, on the other hand, don't necessarily know this
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: so much.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: Right, They're still learning it.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: They're still learning it, their brains are still developing, right.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: So this was the first and foremost thing that officers
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: needed to ensure that occurred. They began by administering very
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: specific questions that were designed to ascertain if these boys
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: did in fact understand the important piece of the puzzle,
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: like do you understand how significant this is? Do you
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: understand right? Wrong? All of that now. Both boys passed
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: this questioning, and it paved the way for the interrogation
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: to finally begin. Accompanied by their mothers and legal representation,
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: both boys faced the police questioning with varying degrees of composure,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: Venables displayed his youth with hysterical and was gripped quite
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: a bit by fear. Understandably, you're being interrogated by officers
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: for potential murder, right, and he was expressing like a
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: lot of fear about the prospect of going to jail.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: So, I mean I understand that, like at these ten well, yeah,
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: because I'm just thinking, if they did do something bad,
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: would a ten year old really be able to keep
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: would they really you know, hide it or hold it in?
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Well. In contrast, Thompson remained controlled and composed through the
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: whole ordeal. Oh shit, yes, oh, which is very surprising
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: and almost scary for someone of that age. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: I mean many adults struggle through this sort of stuff.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: I've seen many adults in in interrogation videos lose their
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: composure and lose it rather fast too. Where in this situation, no,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: he held himself together.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Okay, that is a bit alarming to me.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: He's terrifying.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: So during the interviews, Venables admitted to being in the
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Vicinity on the day that James disappeared, but omitted any
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: mention of the stround shopping center, which is where he
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: went missing and the footage was taken from. Eventually, though,
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: Thompson disclosed their presence at that shopping mall and provided
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: authorities with detailed descriptions of James's attire. So there was
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: a detailed description that was released by James's mother trying,
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: you know, like missing child, Here's what he's wearing.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: Right. Yeah.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: However, police were very taken aback by his intimate knowledge
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: of James's clothing, Like, I don't know to what details
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: he was able to give, but mutt more than what
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: was released to the public.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, Yeah.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: This was an extremely significant piece and it suggested prolonged
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: contact with James. So before long, Thompson would ultimately confess
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: that he and Venables had indeed taken James Bulger away
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: from the shopping center. They were the two individuals seen
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: on that CCTV footage leading him away.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: And Thompson was the one that was hysterical too, right,
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: you said.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Hold on, I got a double check. No Venables was
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: Thompson was the one who means i'mcom coal collective.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, okay.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: So the truth, basically though, was now beginning to come out.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: And it didn't take long for the two boys to
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: begin to actually turn on each other and start playing
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: the blame game a bit. They were each shifting responsibility
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: onto the other and obscuring the facts and what their
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: involvement really was. Now. Thompson's testimony underwent five distinct alterations
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: over the course of two days of relentless questioning. However,
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: it was a seemingly innocuous question from Venables about if
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: you can recover fingerprints off skin that set a very
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: significant alarm bell for investigators.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: That is a question and a half. Hey, yeah, oh
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: my gosh, that would make it I feel like if
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: you were in this scenario and you were the kid
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: asked that like, that would just make the like hairs
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: on the back of your neck.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: Right one, Why is he asking exactly like he's asked,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: like he knows something, He's hiding something. There's crucial information
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: that's going on here. Why is he gonna ask, can
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: you recover fingerprints off someone's skin?
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Because you may not know that. He could have
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: just googled that at home.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just kidding, I'm kidding.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: That's a terrible joke. That is very alarming.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: Your joke or what he said the question, how about
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: both kidding?
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: Anyways, So as the interrogation went on, the police began
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: to notice a troubling pattern in Thompson's behavior. Whenever James
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: was mentioned, his anxiety seemed to manifest in subtle physical cues,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: such as shuffling his legs a bit. More so, it seemed,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: you know, just the mention of James's name it made
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: him very uncomfortable or nervous, almost as if bringing up
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: some vivid memories or potentially even PTSD.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: So that's what I was thinking.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: So there's some alarming red flags going off with both
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: these boys. By lunchtime on February nineteenth, Thompson finally confessed
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: that the two of them indeed made their way to
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: the railway tracks with James. It was a moment that
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: I am sure investigators will never forget because in this instance,
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: Thompson even impersonated James pleading and crying for his mother
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: as they brought him to the tracks.
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: Gosh, okay, I cannot imagine being in the room watching
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: this ten year old imitate a two year old.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: Child who's terrified, screaming for his mom. And you know
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: that some bloody shit.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: Happened next, it would just be it would be so
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: mind blowing. It would be a case that just once
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: in a you know, blue like it would never happen again.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: I really hope it fucking won't, that's for sure. So yeah,
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: it was an impersonation that was so disturbing authorities. It
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: sends shivers down their spines, and it's like doing the
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: same for me. So I totally understand. And meanwhile, nearing
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: one pm, Venables found himself alone with his parents in
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: the interrogation room and reaching a breaking point under the
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: weight of guilt, he actually tearfully confessed to his involvement
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: in James's murder. They were unaware that police were tentatively
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: listening to every word. You're an interrogation room. When will
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: people understand you're not alone?
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean I get that the boy wouldn't understand, yeah,
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: for sure, but the parents, hey, yeah.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: So he admitted fully to his involvement in James's murder.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: But maybe the parents would have, you know. Later confessed that, yeah, I.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Know, I'm not saying I'm not saying they wouldn't, but
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: it's just there's so many cases out there when it's
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: like people are like acting different or talking different when
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: the police are not in the room. It's just like
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: you are in a station. You are being monitored. Yeah,
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: I don't care if you cannot see the equipment it
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: is there.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: Just there's just that thing about being in a closed
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: room and a closed door. You know, you just think
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: you're safe in a way, and.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: Police use that to their advantage. Guaranteed, guaranteed. So it was
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: with this revelation that the authorities were able to confront
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: Thompson because it was Venables, who you know, was the
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: one who said this week. They go over to Thompson
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: and despite his steadfast denial of guilt in James's death,
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: the police believed they now had a mass submission sufficient
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: evidence against both of them. So even though they brought
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: this to Thompson, he's like, yeah, I don't know, you know,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: well I didn't do it. I don't know what he's
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: talking about. They're like, yeah, okay, sure, we still have
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: enough evidence. We're going for this.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: Still just hold and strong.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: So the two boys they initially thought could have not
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: been the ones to do this horrific crime, now they
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: had enough evidence to indeed confirm they were responsible. And
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: on Saturday, February twentieth, nineteen ninety three, the boys were
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: officially informally charged with the abduction and murder of James Bulger, who,
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: let me once again repeat it, he was two and
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: Thompson and Venables were ten.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: Wow, I mean, you feel sick about all of it,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: but like I don't want I almost feel them being
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: ten takes away from James's death, you know, but really
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: that is like the main thing, the main it's all sad,
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: but that's the main brutal outcome of.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: This one percent is Yeah, if anything, I honestly think
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: the fact that they are ten makes it worse to me,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: because it's like, how can these two ten year.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: Olds even think of doing something like that?
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, so, don't get me wrong, Like, my heart
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: is fucking broken for James, but it breaks even more
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: to think that his life was taken by two ten
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: year olds, because at that age, you're supposed to be innocent.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: You're supposed to be happy, you're supposed to like, you know.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're supposed to be like playing, you know, making
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: forts in the woods and shit.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so one innocent life was taken by two
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: other supposedly innocent lives, which makes it all the worse.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: It does. Yeah, but I'm just what I'm trying to
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: say is like, just because they're ten, I don't want
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: to It almost seems like it takes away from what
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: happened to poor little James.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: And yeah, or we haven't even really got into what
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: actually happened to James or are.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: We going to get into that a bit?
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: Yes, okay, well bear with me here, We're we're getting
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: to the trial. So during their initial appearance, around five
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: hundred protesters formed as an angry mob and gathered outside
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: the courtroom. I mean, underscoring the immense controversy and high tempers,
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: you know, surrounding this whole case and the intensity of
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: public outrage even targeted the parents of the accused, and
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: as a result, they had to relocate to different parts
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: of the country and were provided with new identities under
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: the Witness Protection Program due to death threats from vigilantes.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: Oh man, well, I mean it's not unexpected from what
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: they did to that other boy, right, Yeah.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: So basically, yeah, they're like they're blaming the parents, right
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: because they're ten. They're ten, Yeah, like you raised this,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: you did this, Like what the fuck. So yeah. Now.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: The trial commenced on November one, nineteen ninety three, and
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: was conducted as an adult trial, despite the boy's young
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: age of ok now at the time, being eleven years old.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: As they walked to.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: The courtroom, I was wondering how they're going to deal
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: with this.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: Yes, they conducted it as an adult trial. Both Thompson
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: and Venables denied the charges of murder, abduction and attempted abduction.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: So the attempted abduction charge came from a related incident
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: excuse me that very same day at the very same
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: shopping center, because Thompson Invenables had attempted to lead away
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: another two year old boy but were thwarted by the
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: boy's mother.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: Seriously, Yes, so.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: They tried once, were unsuccessful, and tried again, and god.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: James, oh gosh.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: And who knows they potentially could have tried with others
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: but were not caught or successful as well. Wow, yes,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: so this was very clearly premeditated.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Seated in full view of the court on raised chairs
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: of wo which both boys could actually see, You're kidding.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: They were accompanied by two social workers and guards as
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: the story unfolded. As it went Thompson invenables had set
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: out with the intention of abducting a young boy, ultimately
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: targeting James. They led him to the nearby train tracks,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: where they callously beat him and laid him down on
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: the tracks before weighing his head down with rubble, hoping
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: to stage his death as an accident on the train tracks. Tragically,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: James's body was severed by a passing train after they
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: left the scene. His dismembered remains were eventually discovered by
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: a group of children two days later. During the trial,
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: a forensic pathologist provided crucial testimony affirming that James had
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: died before being struck by the train. This revelation added
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: a very chilling layer of what could have transpired before
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: the train even arrived, and the you know, already horrifying.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I was going to ask that, but
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: I was like, do I also want to know? Huh? Not?
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: Really? Yeah, if I'm being fair, I kind of omitted
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: searching up Much of the details known, but even still
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: not many of the details are.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: Known, which is probably a good thing. Yes, I mean,
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: for like James and James's family.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: Right, yes, definitely. However, I do have some more details
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: regarding it to share with you. Police had also suspected
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: or they had suspicions of a sexual assault aspect to this,
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: and it was fueled by the fact that James's shoes, socks, pants,
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: and underwear had been removed. The pathologist's report was read
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: out in court and it revealed an additional, very disturbing detail.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: James's foreskin had also been forcibly being pulled back, which
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: for some young boys may not be a natural thing
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: to occur at such a young age.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: Holy shit, you're an oh okay really.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: When questioned about this aspect of the attack by detectives
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: and a child psychiatrist named Eileen Wizard, Tom and Inventibles
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: did not provide any details.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: What the actual fuck? Huh okay?
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: So leading him to the tracks, they assaulted him in
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: many manners, beat him, tortured him, held him down with
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: rubble on the tracks in hopes of staging an accident.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: After they left, he had died of the result of
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: what they did to him, and then his remains were
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: run over by a train and he was found two
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: days later.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: And I'm sure that they went back after that to see,
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: like what the potentially because I'm trying to figure out,
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: like my brain just going a mile minute, Like what
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: the fuck they're like why, Like, why the hell are
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: they doing this? I don't know, but it has to
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: I feel like it has to be some sort of
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: like curiosity thing which is beyond disturbing. So I bet
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: you anything that they went back after to like.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: See they could have There is one thing I have
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: in here that may provide some insight to that. But
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: we'll touch on it here in a little.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: Bit, Okay.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: So, Thompson and Venables were considered by the court to
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: be capable of quote mischievous discretion, meaning an ability to
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: act with criminal intent, as they were mature enough to
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: understand that they were doing something seriously wrong, hence, you know,
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: being tried as adults. Thompson was considered to have taken
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: the leading role in the abduction process, though it was
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: Venables who had apparently initiated the idea of taking James
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: to the railway track. Venables later described the heartbreaking part
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: of the story on how James seemed to like him
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: and trust him, holding his hand and allowing him to
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: even pick him up on the wandering journey to the tracks,
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: which would ultimately become his own murderer scene.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, okay, I just can't get rid of
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: these fucking visuals in my mind.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: Out I know, I can like literally fucking see James
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: reaching up for his hand.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: Like a little two year old baby. Really. Yeah.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: Oh so, the pathologist spent thirty three minutes in the
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: courtroom outlying the injury sustained by James, including extensive brain
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: damage and hemorrhaging. There were also many injuries to his legs,
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: which had been inflicted after he was stripped from the
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: waist down. It seems as though before the two boys
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: had pinned him down to be run out by the train.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: That's when, you know, of course, we had already mentioned beating, abuse,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: torture had occurred. There was also a lot of evidence
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: to suggest that much of this, you know, we just
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: don't know the true extend. We really don't.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So, as a results of the trial, the two
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: boys were found guilty of James Bulger's murder at the
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: Preston Court on the twenty fourth of November in nineteen
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: ninety three, becoming the youngest convicted murderers of the twentieth century.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: Oh you know, and the mom was probably sitting in
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: there right, Yes, yes she was. Is I mean, like
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: we're here listening about this, and like, you know, it's
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: so disturbing, but I just can't even imagine being that
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: boy's mom.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: Can you imagine learning the stuff that that child went through?
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: Your child, your little toy. Yeah, and it is one
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: hundred percent not her fault because you can hold on
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: here because you can never never have one hundred percent
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: attention on your child. Never. And I know someone in
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: her situation would have these tendencies to blame themselves. I
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: know because it's a natural instinct. Well, if only I
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: watched one percent, not her fault, definitely not. These two
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: fucking douche canoes of children were watching for the moment, Yeah,
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: fucking looked away.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: They were there on a mission, they were.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: And she could have watched in that moment. They would
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: have struck it another.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Moment well, And the thing is too, they would have
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: gotten away kind of with it a little bit easier
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: because I don't even think anyone would would see this
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: little boy with these two ten year olds and any
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: alarm would go off because they're probably thinking, like, oh,
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: it's their siblings or something, right exactly, because if it
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: was reversed, and it was adults with this little boy.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: You know, some people might notice or like see that
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: they were upset a little bit more, but not with
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: two ten year olds.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: Well, there was even a situation. I kind of omitted
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: this one, but I told you they were kind of
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: headed out of them all to the canal sort of situation.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: There was apparently a woman who had witnessed the two
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: boys with James, and James had tripped or fallen or
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: they pushed him or something and he was crying and
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: she didn't report this. Who's gonna think to fucking Yeah,
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: that's probably their little brother right.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: Now or cousin or something.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the mom will take care of that. Like they're
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: right there, they're fine.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So your mind would never ever.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Go to not in a million motherfucking years, No, never, No.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: So Judge, mister Justice Morland, love the fucking name for
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: a judge, Mister just Morland, told Thompson and Venables that
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: they had committed a crime of quote unparalleled evil and barbarity.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: In my judgment, your conduct was both cunning and very wicked.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: So Judge Morland sentenced them to be determined by Her
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: Majesty's pleasure, I'm not exactly certain what that means. I'm
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: pretty sure that's going to like the Queen because they're
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: in England, right, so it's probably going to you know,
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: the monarch of some sort with a recommendation that they
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: should be kept in her in custody for quote very
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: very many years to come, recommending a minimum term of
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: eight years.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, because oh, I hadn't even thought about that.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: They're so fucking young.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: Yes, they're being tried, they're being tried as adults in
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: an adult courtroom, but they are still children. You cannot
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: sentence them like an adult. You cannot.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, they're probably already out.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: Well, there was some discrepancies and how to actually come
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: down with justice on a serving term, and there it
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: went up I think, to one point with the recommendation
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: of being minimum of twelve years, but eventually, like through
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: like controversies and debates and stuff, it came back down
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: to the original eight. But of course there was a
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: lot of controversy surrounding this case because of the young
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: age of these kids and how this court presiding played out.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: Well, they did a very adult task, really though, they did.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, they should be tried that way, if they're
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: going to do something that bad.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, honestly, not even a fucking adult should
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: do that. But yeah, I know what you mean, one
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: hundred percent. But at the closing of this trial, the
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: judge lifted reporting restrictions and allowed the names of the
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: killers to be released, saying, and this goes along the
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: whole lines of the controversy thing. But I won one
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: hundred percent agree with the judge saying this quote. I
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: did this because the public interest overrode the interest of
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: the defense. There was a need for an informed public
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: debate on crimes committed by young children. So he's using
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: this as an educational platform for not only the judicial system,
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: but also the public as well, which phenomenal. I love that.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, No, that's really good.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and yeah, he was right though for years this
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: case has been a very hot topic of debate regarding
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: how everything unfolded. And yeah, I kind of already said that.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: So now, on June twenty second of two thousand and one,
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: having served their eight years, both Thompson and Venables were released.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: Both were given new identities and moved to different parts
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: of the country to maintain their own safety. Holy fuck,
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: An injunction prevents the press from publishing any details about
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: the two killers New lives. On the twenty third of
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: July twenty ten, Venables, aged twenty seven, was jailed once
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: again after admitting his guilt to downloading and distributing indecent
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: images of children, so child pornography. And I said, there's
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: a piece that may paint some insight onto why there
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: it is?
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: Oh what the fuck? Yeah, holy shit, And they're just
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: fucking out of jail now, Well they're gonna oh so.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: Ha, are you good? No, I told you this is
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: a fucking rough case.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: Because that's the problem. They're so young, so they're going
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: to get out and they're clearly especially I don't know
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: about the other boy, but he definitely did not get rehabilitated.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're just.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: Going to complete being like a complete garbage bag of
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: a human.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: Awesome. And we don't even get to know who the
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: fuck they are? Correct that that is just not okay.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: I somewhat agree, but I somewhat don't agree. Like I
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: see it, but I don't know if I with it,
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: I understand, but fuck it's hard, Like I don't know,
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I see both sides of this coin,
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: I really fucking do. And it's so hard to discern
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: which would be the better side, because I mean, these
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: these two kids had a fucking horrible thing. Yes, they
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: did a very as you put it, like a very
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: adult act, right, Yeah, but they were kids. If anyone's
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: going to be rehabilitated, it's someone like this, that's true.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: But clearly the one especially did not RISCT.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: So how do you discern that you have to take
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: a risk at some point with letting them potentially, Like,
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know, and I don't know what that risk
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: would be. I'm not educated enough. I'm not someone in
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: the position in power to make that call.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean you'd only hope, too, that there was
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: some sort of like something that followed their new names
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: that made it so they couldn't work with kids or something.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, there's definitely should be some fucking lines in
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: the sand. I agree. You don't just be like, yeah,
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: I enjoy your new fucking life, yeah, a new identity.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: And may become like a teacher or something.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, No, you're going to be fucking working very
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: far away from kids. We're going to be checking up
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: on you every so often, and.
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: You would only hope, but I you don't know for sure.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: But that means we could go fucking many episodes onto
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: how the fuck that could play out. I see why
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: they were charged, and I see why they served an
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: eight year sentence. I see why they were given new names.
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: I see why they were given out to live a
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: new life. But I see why people are very mad
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: about it. I see why they shouldn't. I see it
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: all I do, And you can't have the best of
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: both worlds. You just cannot, I do, Okay.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: I think if they were given given a little bit
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: more time than eight years, it would be easier to swallow,
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: Like it would be easier for that for knowing that
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: they get a new name, because eight years isn't really
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: that much wrong. It's not for someone to you know,
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: like get rehabilitated. So I feel like if they would
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: have gotten you know, a normal kind of sentence, like
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: even twenty five years, say, right, like kind of the
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: normal fair enough that after that amount of time, you know,
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: maybe they could be changed. But eight years, I just
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: I can't really see it.
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: There's so many factors to consider in this. But anyways,
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: onto Thompson. Though since his release in two thousand and one.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: He has kept a very low profile and has done
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: his best to maintain his anonymity. There we go. He
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: came close to one incident, actually meeting James's mother, Denise
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: in two thousand and four. She sought him out and
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: she managed to track him down. However, she was paralyzed
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: with anger and hatred and was unable to confront him.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: Unable to confront one of the men who murdered her
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: two year old child, James Bulker.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's really sad because that just sort of shows
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: it's like her life going forward, you know, like it
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: doesn't seem like it's good. How would it really be? Though? Yeah, Oh,
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: that is so sad.
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: So the sheer brutality of the sadistic killing perpetrated by
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: Thompson and Venables has surpassed any expectations of what two
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: primary school children, except what they were, could ever be
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: capable of. The word evil has since become synonymous with
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: their actions and their names. That is the story of
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: the murder of James Bulger.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: Well, that is a brutal story.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not one that I enjoyed researching.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: No, gosh, I don't. I don't even know if I
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: would have been able to research that one. Gosh, that
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: is horrible, horrible, and I'm still I'm still literally on
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: the fact that they are only eighteen when they go out.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: That is still kind of a child in a sense.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: They still so much learning stuff. They needed to be
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: in way longer than that, in my opinion.
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: Well, technically they probably would have been nineteenth they were eleven,
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: but I don't know. It all depends on like when
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: the months fell and you know, but so, yeah, there
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: could have been time served from being in custody. Who
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: knows what?
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, gosh, and there's, like you said, so much that
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: we probably don't even know or never will know. I
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: actually am surprised. How would they even go on? Like
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: just knowing what they did is just no, I really don't.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: One of them clearly has some very disturbing tendencies to
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: then come out of prison and have child pornography. Wow. Yeah,
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: I yeah, no, I don't want to have that conversation.
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: Never mind, how are you doing?
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, I knew a little bit
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: about this case. I didn't know a lot of the details.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it is just so it's so devastating. It's
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: just such a it's just so unnecessary and such a waste.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, well I will end it on one
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: little note. Uh, James's parents, after James was killed, they
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: had another child together and they I believe it was
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: his middle name was was James. They did name their
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: their other son after their older brother.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: I was wondering that. I almost asked, but you almost think, like, gosh,
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: the anxiety they must have, you know, towards this other
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: this other kid too, right, Yeah, for sure, gosh, because
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: how do you even go Florida after you've kind of
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: lost to like it would just be you would be worried, sick.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure you already are, but even to
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: more more of an extent.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, you you're one percent. Right. Well, we're it's late.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: We're probably gonna go go to bed now, and definitely not.
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: If not, I'm not any sleep. That's most likely our night.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: So hopefully you somewhat enjoyed this episode. It was a
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: very heavy one. It was one of those ones that
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: we had to do. We had to tell James's story. Yeah,
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: and it sat on our shelf for a long time
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: with that daunting task of covering it.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: It does get recommended a lot this one.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: It does.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: And then I just wanted to say too, just because
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: we are on the road, we aren't videoing this one.
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: Oh right, yeah, so this this one will not be
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: on YouTube. This is a strictly audio one. Yeah, and
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: we're a little bit behind with posting some video podcasting,
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: so those will be going up here in the coming
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: week or so, so just watch out for those. Go
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: down to the description. You can find YouTube, you can
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: find Instagram. You can find we have two YouTube channels,
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: one where you can watch the podcast in video form
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: except like Nicole said, not this one, and another where
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: we dov logs and stuff about our lifestyle. There's also Patreon.
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: We have a website. It's all there if you want
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: to sign up check any of it out. All the
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: descripts are down below.
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: Awesome. Yeah yeah, you need you need to have something
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: like a ice cream or something, some sort of a
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: little something to make your night a little better.
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: I think I just need to like walk out into
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: the middle of a field somewhere and just scream, just
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: screw the top, scream at nothing and everything all at
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: once at this world.
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, well well done.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, Well I'm going to go do that.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks so much for listening everyone.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, until next time, stay wicked.