Latest / Beautifully Complex / 256: Breaking Down Motivation: Helping Teens and Young Adults Find Their Path to Success, with Melanie McNally, Psy.D.

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256: Breaking Down Motivation: Helping Teens and Young Adults Find Their Path to Success, with Melanie McNally, Psy.D. · Beautifully Complex

0:03
You know, we can have all the passion in the world, or we
0:06
can have a clear purpose. You know, we know what our purpose is
0:10
at our core. But if we don't have that direction and that roadmap,
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we're not really going to get very far with it, and then we're probably
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going to lose some of that motivation because nothing's happening with it. We want
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to be moving forward. Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share
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insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host,
0:39
Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author and mindset mama, honored
0:44
to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started.
0:53
Welcome back, everybody. I am really excited to have doctor Melanie McNally
0:58
with me. She has been here on the podcast before and I think maybe
1:02
one of the summits before as well. Always a pleasure. So much wisdom
1:07
on teens and young adults areas that many of us are struggling with now or
1:15
maybe down the road soon. So we're going to talk a lot about motivation
1:19
and helping our young adults find their place and what that journey looks like for
1:25
them. But I want to start by just having you introduce yourself. Let
1:30
everybody know who you are and what you do. Thank you so much for
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having me. So. Yes, I'm doctor Melanie McNally. I'm a clinical
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psychologist and brain coach, and I specialize in working with tweens, teens,
1:42
and young adults and helping them build their self awareness, their self regulation,
1:49
their interpersonal skills, and also really helping them increase their motivation, so breaking
1:56
apart what motivation is and figuring out which area they're really struggling in so that
2:00
we can get them feeling excited and energized about life. And I do that
2:07
with you know, one on one brain coaching, and then I also have
2:10
some online courses and some books available to awesome. Where should we start with
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this conversation? I you know, for me, I would say, oh,
2:21
I want to start with motivation, and I'm not sure that's really where
2:24
we start. What would you say? So one of the biggest issues I
2:28
see with a lot of the young adults that I work with is they will
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come in because they'll say their motivation is really low. You know, They'll
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tell me like I just you know, I don't want to do much.
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I don't want to go to college, or I don't want to work,
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and I'm just not motivated to do anything. And so what I always start
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with is like, Okay, well I know that's not true. I know
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you have some motivation to do something. Let's figure out first what it is
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that you're motivated to do and what that usually So where we usually end up
2:59
starting is with tech addiction, because they are motivated to spend time on their
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devices. You know, they don't have any issue watching tiktoks or youtubes or
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scrolling mindlessly for hours. And so I feel like the tech area is a
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really good place to start because we have to get that area in order a
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little bit, and then we can kind of build on it from there.
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And how do we tease apart a tech addiction from maybe you know, tech's
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a lot more stimulating, or this is the area where I shine and I
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do really well. How do we know where that line is? So yes,
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and thank you for pointing that out, because when I use addiction here,
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I'm using it kind of loosely, you know, not necessarily like diagnostically,
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but where you know, with a lot of the young adults they will
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tell me, I'm spending way more time on my phone than I want to
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be. I am bored. I find that I'm bored, yet I'm still
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scrolling. You know, I don't want to be on my phone, but
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I don't know what else to do. And so they are in that realm
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of where it's it's really unhealthy, you know, where it's not quite in
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line with what we would consider addiction, where maybe it's taking them away from
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you know, friends, it's taking them away from school or work. That's
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when it kind of gets into that addictive territory. But they're in unhealthy territory
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because it's preventing them from engaging in life the way that they want to engage.
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Like, they're not participating in life at the level that they want.
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And a lot of times they're aware of it. They don't like it,
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you know, And a lot of the teams and young adults I work with,
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they might admit it to me, and they might not admit it to
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a parent because you know, that's a different conversation and a different relationship.
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But they'll tell me, you know, I know, like I'm on it
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way too much, but I don't know what else to do. Yeah,
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and where do you start with that? As I'm just sitting here thinking,
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I have a twenty one year old NERD divergent kid who spends a lot of
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time on screens and doesn't seem motivated to do some things. But they're also
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non preferred tests like cleaning your room and vacuuming the floors, and you know,
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so I find it hard to figure out because I don't consider that you
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would have to be motivated to do things. I think it's more about being
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able to engage with what's important, but also being able to figure out what
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it takes to do what you want to do. Right, Because you're saying
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that your clients are often they know that they are spending too much time on
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screens, theyn't want to they know that they're not meeting even their own goals.
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Maybe how do you make a turn from that? Yeah? So first,
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you know, with that self awareness piece is really important. So when
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a teen or young adult, you know, has the self awareness of like,
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Okay, I'm behaving in a way that I don't like and I want
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to create a little bit of change here, that's always a really good starting
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point because they've bought in, you know, they're there for their own reason,
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it's not something that like somebody's making them do. And then, you
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know, a lot of times what I'll start with with them is having them
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figure out some areas that they're curious about, you know, interest things that
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they're just like interested in outside of their screens. So it doesn't matter what
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it is. It doesn't matter if they're interested in, you know, dungeons
6:30
and dragons or badminton or you know, it really doesn't matter. But it's
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just getting them to create a list of things that they're curious about, and
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then having them start to spend time in those curiosities so that they are starting
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to just naturally spend less time on their phone. And at the same time,
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I like to educate them a little bit about what's happening in their brain,
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because when their brain is used to the dopamine that they're getting and just
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from the scrolling, when they're not getting that anymore, when they're doing something
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else, they're going to feel pulled back to their phone. They're going to
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feel that that pole and it's going to feel really uncomfortable to ignore it.
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And so I want them to lean into that discomfort to know, you know,
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when you have your phone turned off because you are playing Dungeons and Dragons
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with your friends, you are going to want to check that phone. You're
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going to want to turn it on, and it's going to feel really uncomfortable.
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But that's your brain kind of like recalibrating itself in a way, and
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you want it to get used to this new normal of like not giving into
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that pole. And so while they're doing the curiosities, they're not on their
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phone, their brain starts to recalibrate a little bit, get used to like
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that not constant checking. And then once they've done that, then we can
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start to even implement some other things to help with just more of like the
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the boring tasks that you mentioned earlier, like having to clean their room or
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do their laundry, where now they're in a place where it might be easier
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to Okay, let's make sure that your phone is turned off when you have
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to clean your room. You've just put a barrier between yourself and your phone
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so that it's not as easy now to get pulled into it, because their
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brain is in a little bit of a better position now to handle it.
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Yeah. Yeah, and I think too, like those boring tasks can be
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so much more difficult for neurodivergent individuals because you just don't have that same sort
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of on switch for your brain for importance, and so it can be really
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challenging. I love leaning into interests. I think that it's so powerful for
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our kids, and I think you know, as parents, we feel like
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it needs to be purposeful or lead somewhere, but really it can start without
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that, right, Like we're just trying to change habits and have exploration.
9:00
Would it lead somewhere else even better? Sure? Maybe? But if it
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doesn't, that's okay too, right Because essentially, so motivation is made up
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of three skill sets. Stephen Kotler has done a lot of research on motivation
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and drive and peak performance, and so he identified this model that really,
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I feel like, resonates with a lot of teens and young adults, and
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so he talks about how motivation is made up of these three skill sets.
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We've got drive, we have grit, and we have goals. So drive
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is that internal push to do something. So that's like our passion, our
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purpose, you know, where we just naturally are motivated to do something.
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Grit is our ability to stick with something even when it's boring or even when
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it's really challenging. And then goals are the roadmap, the detailed directions that
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are going to get us where we want to go. And so when we
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think of motivation is being made up of these three skill sets, what we
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can do is look and see where is the teen or young adult, where
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are they really struggling? And so once we have the tech under control,
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so they're not spending all their time on there, and then now we're starting
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to have them spend some time and like their passions and spend some time earn
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their curiosities, and then you know, and hoping like, okay, maybe
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one of these curiosities is going to turn into something that you want to do
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more of and you want to spend a little more time on that, and
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then we can kind of build from there. But we also want to see
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are they struggling with grit? You know, is it hard for them to
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stick with something long term? Or do they just not know how to clearly
10:43
identify, create and identify their goals. Because often seens and young adults they
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don't know how to create goals, they don't know how to break them down
10:56
into little steps, and so sometimes we can say, oh, okay,
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you actually have some things you're passionate about. You just don't know how to
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break that down and create that roadmap, and so we can do that,
11:09
and then that can help increase motivation. Yeah, I think a lot of
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parents are nodding their heads at the fact that our kids don't have grit.
11:16
This is something that comes up a lot in the conversations that I have with
11:20
parents, and it happens to my own kid as well. I call him
11:22
a serial avoider because any perceived discomfort he like immediately puts up a wall,
11:28
right, And so we've really been working on that avoidance, and it's difficult.
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It's difficult to teach the skills of being uncomfortable and getting through that when
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your brain works a little differently, right, or if you're already have anxiety,
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I think it's doubly hard to sit in that discomfort. And a lot
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of times that avoidance it becomes a safety behavior, especially you know you mentioned
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anxiety where if I'm anxious to you know, talk in front of large groups,
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which I am, then I'm going to avoid you know, those situations
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where I might have to do it. And then it just kind of turns
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into this like safety behavior for me. So now I'm just always going to
12:13
avoid those types of scenarios and then that might impact job opportunities or promotions or
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other things of my life. So with you know, tansiting on adults,
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especially individuals with anxiety or any other type of ADHD or anything autism being on
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a spectrum, we want to think about really tiny baby steps. So if
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they're avoiding something, then we don't want to throw them into the deep end
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of the pool, but we want to think of like, Okay, how
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can they kind of dip their toe into this to you know, help them.
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And that's going to help a lot with motivation as well, because motivation
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it comes from action. You know, we have to take that little baby
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step first and then the motivation starts to follow. And so it can be
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the same thing with just helping our brain talery that discomfort just kind of slowly
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easing into that pool. I'm thinking about my therapist, my own therapist for
13:18
me in trying to get healthier and having a lot of mental roadblocks to that
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and excuses and so forth. She told me like, just stand on the
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elliptical. I don't expect you to move it just go put your feet on
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it and stand there. And starting this therapy and working with her of the
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last year, it has really opened my eyes to the fact that we all
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could use baby steps and taking things in smaller, more manageable pieces. Right.
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And so if I don't feel great and that makes me not want to
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do the elliptical, I can just stand there and at least I'm not building
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this chasm of not doing it at all, which then gets me back stock
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at the beginning, right. And I actually thought it was silly, and
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I went home and I did my time in the elliptical, Like I didn't
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just stand there, But I wouldn't have had she not given me permission to
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just like do what I could, right. And I think we forget that
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as parents. We want to go to the goal. We want our twenty
14:20
something year old kid to be taking care of themselves, right, and you
14:24
have to have different steps to get there. And it's okay if they're the
14:28
teeniest things in the world. Yes, And those steps are going to look
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different for everyone, because I literally today was just down with a client before
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this, with one of my teen clients who actually a young adult who's at
14:41
college and is trying to get to the gym three days a week and is
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finding on certain mornings it's really hard to get out of bed. And so
14:50
we kind of did the same sort of thing where it's like, Okay,
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what would be a baby step if you can't go to the gym, what
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would still be something that would like be moving you in that direction? So
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for him it's like getting up at the time he would go to the gym.
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Yeah, And what he's found is just by having that one giving himself
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permission of like, Okay, I don't actually have to go to the gym,
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but I'm going to get up early in the morning as though I am.
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And then he found like, okay, well, as long as I'm
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up, I might as well make my smoothie. Okay, as long as
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I've had my smoothie, I might as well go and just do a little
15:18
bit of a workout. As long as I'm here, I might as well
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add to it. But when we get into those little steps, it gives
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our brain little tiny things to focus on, and so it's not as overwhelming,
15:31
yeah, because if we're focusing on like, Okay, I have to
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go to the gym and do an hour long workout my brain now is going
15:39
to feel really overwhelmed and then I might just kind of freeze or not want
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to do anything at all. Yep, yeap, been there, done that.
15:46
Yeah, it's amazing really when we learn about ourselves more deeply, we
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learn also about our kids and about being parents. I think there's a lot
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of wisdom in that. When we really have some self for refulation, it's
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pretty amazing. So we have worked on the tech, we have leaned into
16:07
curiosities, and then we've talked some about trying to develop grit. What's next
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after that? Yeah, and you know, and one thing too that can
16:17
also help with developing grit that we didn't talk about is because I see this
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a lot across the board. It doesn't matter if it's my high achieving kids
16:26
or my kids who are struggling a little bit more. But with the teens
16:29
and young adults, GRIT really does seem to be lower for gen z and
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I do want to tell parents. So research shows GRIT does tend to drop
16:41
with each generation. So you know, as adults, will you know be
16:45
like, oh, when I was a kid, I had to do that,
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you know, I had to stare out the car window and now you
16:49
guys can just watch movies. And that does tend to be true for each
16:53
generation, things get a little bit easier, so we do see grit tend
16:56
to drop, but there are things that we can do to just get them
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to build their grit muscle and to get it a little bit stronger. And
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so that's going to be you know, tolerating discomfort, doing things that are
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a little bit hard. That's where the baby steps really come in handy because
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we think of it like, Okay, this is a muscle that you're building.
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So if you're trying to stick with things that are hard and boring,
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you can practice this with like a board game. You know, maybe Monopoly
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is like like for me, Monopoly is extremely painful. I cannot stand that
17:29
game. And so that would be me building my grit muscle like playing Monopoly.
17:34
And it's safe, you know, because it's not personal, Like if
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I don't win at Monopoly, I'm not going to it's not going to bother
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my self worth or anything like that. But it's giving me a chance to
17:45
build that muscle. And so we can do the same thing with teens and
17:48
young adults of like, okay, what's something that's kind of unpleasant for you,
17:52
but we know, like, you can stick with it, you can
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do it, and even if it's hard, or even if you're not good
18:00
at it, it's not going to take a big blow to your self confidence
18:03
and encouraging them to build their muscle that way. And I find that when
18:07
I explain that to teens and young adults, they are really great at figuring
18:11
out what they can do. You know, what's something. It might be
18:15
reading a chapter in a book, like a boring book, you know,
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where they're like, Okay, I can stick with it. I can get
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through it, and even if I don't retain all of it, it's okay,
18:25
it's not that big a deal. Or I can, you know,
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sit and listen to my little sister tell me all about her latest friend drama,
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Like I can do that, and then they know that they're working and
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building that grip muscle. I love that. Once they've done that and they're
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working on it, that's when we can start to figure out some goals,
18:45
because that's the next layer of motivation, is that we need to have clear
18:52
goals in order to have motivation. You know, we can have all the
18:56
passion in the world or we can have a clear purpose. You know,
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we know what our purpose is at our core. But if we don't have
19:04
that direction and that roadmap, we're not really going to get very far with
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it, and then we're probably going to lose some of that motivation because nothing's
19:15
happening with it. Yeah, we want to be moving forward, We want
19:19
to be making progress on something, and so having you know, figuring out
19:25
the goals and figuring out the roadmap can help us do that. Yeah,
19:30
And how do we help to guide them to that? Because I think I
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don't know if it's a generational thing. It's probably a little bit of a
19:37
neurodivergent thing. But a lot of times our teens and young adults just aren't
19:44
sure, right, And who really hasn't figured out at age twenty anyway,
19:48
Like I'm doing something totally different than what I ever thought I would do,
19:52
right, and that's just I went where life led me. But I think
19:55
they feel a lot of pressure to have it figured out and to be on
19:59
the right path and finding that goal and being certain of it almost is a
20:06
real hurdle. Do you see that too? Yes, in this area,
20:11
I completely blame social media because they are seeing highlight reels. So they're seeing
20:18
these curated versions of other people and they're thinking that everyone else has it all
20:25
figured out, everyone else knows what they're doing, everyone else has this clear
20:30
path. I don't what's wrong with me? And the reality is that's not
20:36
true. We know what you're seeing out there is curated and put together,
20:41
and people don't have it all figured out. But when you're in your twenties
20:45
and you're scrolling, it feels very very real. So they absolutely struggle with
20:52
that and feel like they need to. And I'm totally with you. When
20:56
I was in my twenties, Oh my gosh, I was definitely not in
21:02
the direction I am now. So it's okay to like not have things figured
21:07
out, and in fact, we actually want twenties to be like when we're
21:11
exploring. Like you know, I cannotstand these high schools where they put kids
21:18
on a career path in high school, like where they make them declare medical
21:23
or whatever, like they make them declare a pathway almost like a major,
21:30
which is so ridiculous when they're in high school. Because I think even when
21:33
you're in your twenties, you still want to be figuring things out. It's
21:37
hard yeah, because it's like over eighty percent of college students end up changing
21:44
their major. So even what you think you want when you first start college,
21:48
it's going to change. And then once you're out of college, it
21:53
is very normal for people to completely change career pathways, for people to go
22:00
back to school. Those are all very normal things. But our society kind
22:06
of has this other image that we're putting out there like, oh, Nope,
22:10
you need to know what you're going to do, and you need to
22:11
pick a path and you have to stick on it and you can't deviate from
22:15
it, and that's just not true. Yeah, that's why I like having
22:18
them kind of figure out what they're curious about and passionate about, and even
22:22
if we're creating goals around those things, it leaves a lot of wiggle room
22:26
because if you're following a passion and something that you're you know, really interested
22:32
in and you enjoy, and even if you have goals, there's still a
22:36
lot you can do with that because it's about the passion, it's not about
22:41
the end result, right, And all that really begs the question why are
22:45
we spending money on college at ages eighteen through twenty three? Right? Because
22:51
you're spending the money on supposed to be a career path, right, you
22:55
have to declare a major, and you have to have it all figured it
22:57
out, and then they get out in real world, they're like the wind
23:02
kind of comes out of their sales a lot of times, and it just
23:07
seems to me that we need to give them more time to explore. And
23:11
that's a conversation we have on this podcast all the time. Kids do not
23:14
need to go to college right after high school. It's okay to take a
23:18
break, it's okay to take a different path, whatever you know works for
23:22
each individual. But I think the more we get into especially this generation of
23:26
young adults, even makes more sense that we are allowing that extra time.
23:33
I completely agree. I think that college can you know, it can be
23:37
great in some ways, you know, with teaching like self discipline and there's
23:42
certain things that it can be really healthy for young adults. But then if
23:48
they go in with this plan of like Okay, this is what I'm going
23:51
to do and they're laser focused on something in a way, they're just setting
23:55
themselves up for failure. Yeah, because we know, you know, in
23:59
most cases it's not going to turn out that way, and you want to
24:00
have some flexibility. It's good to go in with the idea of like,
24:04
Okay, I'm interested in this one area, but I could still go lots
24:10
of different directions with it, and I can kind of figure it out as
24:12
I go, because you know, as humans too, that's generally how we
24:17
learn best is through doing Yep. Yeah, one hundred percent. It's such
24:21
a struggle, and I think parents are just really trying to find their own
24:26
footing because it's not the same to me in your twenties as it was when
24:30
we as their parents were in our twenties. It's very, very, very
24:33
different, and so it can be a real struggle. And I really appreciate
24:37
you sharing a roadmap. You've given us a roadmap where to start, what
24:42
to do next, and that is so helpful. I want to just talk
24:47
about your book that you have out and the one that's coming out soon,
24:52
so that people know how they might be able to learn more from you,
24:55
and then we'll wrap up. Yes, So I have a book out currently
25:00
called The Emotionally Intelligent Team, and so it's for teens and young adults,
25:03
and it's to help them build the skills of emotional intelligence. So helping them
25:10
build self awareness, self regulation, and interpersonal skills. Because even as we
25:15
were talking about college and jobs, one of the things of the World Economic
25:21
Forum when they did their latest data report, they found that employers are more
25:26
concerned with an employees' emotional intelligence. That was in like the top five of
25:33
in demand skills, Like that was above text skills. So they really want
25:41
to hire people who are aware, like who have that self awareness, who
25:45
have self regulation, who have good interpersonal skills. So my book that's out
25:49
now is on that. And then I have a book coming out September first,
25:53
and that's for parents of teens and young adults, and it's called Raising
25:57
Motivated Teens, and that really to help parents unlock their child's potential. It's
26:04
a guide and I take parents through some of what we talked about today with
26:08
drive, grit and goals and you know, really dive deep into those areas.
26:15
Yeah, it's such a challenging time for us to navigate as parents teens
26:18
and young adults. You know, we still want to be protective, they
26:22
want to be independent, they don't want to need us, but they got
26:26
to still need, you know, and it's just it can be a real
26:29
challenge. So I appreciate so much the work that you're doing and just helping
26:33
us to take it a little easier to be kind to ourselves and to our
26:37
kids on the journey that they're on. Yes, it's definitely a different time
26:42
to be a parent. I'm not a parent myself, but I've seen I've
26:47
worked specifically with adolescents since twenty thirteen, and I have seen such a shift
26:53
in the way teens and young adults show up in the world, the way
26:59
they engage with the world, the way parents now parent. So even in
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you know, the last eleven years, I've seen quite a big shift,
27:07
and I know it's a lot for parents to keep up with. So you
27:11
know, absolutely when parents find like communities and can get support from one another
27:17
and can practice that self compassion because you know, you really are figuring out
27:22
a lot of the stuff on your own. Parents can always reach out to
27:25
me too through my website, which is Destination YOUU dot net. So it's
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Destination you dot net and you can find different res So I've got free resources
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on there and you can always, you know, reach out to me directly
27:37
there too. Yeah, we'll link that up in the show notes for this
27:40
episode, which are at Parenting ADHD and Autism dot com Slash two five six
27:47
per episode two hundred and fifty six. And again, I just want to
27:49
thank you. I'm so thankful for you and the work that you're doing and
27:52
helping our teens and young adults. And with that will end. I will
27:56
see everybody next time. Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast.
28:02
If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and don't forget to
28:06
check out my online courses and parent coaching at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com and
28:12
at the Behavior Revolution dot com