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Blame Shifting and Capitalizing on Fear with Dr. Karyne Messina · Authentic Living

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  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
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  things that really matter in our lives.
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  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
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  Everyone, it's, Roxanne Derhodge.
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  Thanks for tuning in again this week to authentically living with Roxanne.
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  I have a guess that I've had before and, it's psychologist and psychoanalyst, Karen Messina.
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  And Karen brings a perspective that I think we need as the average person to explore further.
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  Karen was a I believe one of my podcasts is about well, almost a year and a half to almost
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  2 years ago, and we talked a lot about kind of the space we're in as as people with everything
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  that we've been going through in the last couple of years and Parents just released a new
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  book, on, you know, the the concept of where are we?
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  Where is the power power that is and the imbalances and some of the, blame shifting
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  that's occurring.
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  And I'm gonna let Karen tell you the full title, and we're just gonna have a juicy
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  conversation about this book, which is, it sounds like a spectacular piece of work.
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  So Karen, thanks again for, being here with us.
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  Well, thank you, Roxanne.
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  It's wonderful to be back talking with you.
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  I I just love the last podcast we did, so I'm really looking forward to this one.
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  The title of the book is resurgence of Global Populism, a psychoanalytic study of Projective
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  Identification, which I'll explain, lame shifting and the corruption of democracy.
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  So I kind of, think of my talks about my book as the who, what, where, why, and how populism
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  today.
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  I think perhaps 6 or 7 years ago, just to market and time when Obama was president, I
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  don't think people were really talking much about populism.
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  And I frankly I I'm not even sure I knew what it meant then, but but things have changed.
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  This is a different world, and so I have written this book so I can try to help, spread
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  the word about its meaning and its impact.
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  Let's start there then, Karen.
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  For some of the people that had the pleasure.
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  I know we touched on some of that for last time, but for the average person that doesn't
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  understand what popular is and is, what is it, and what is it not?
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  That's a excellent question.
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  This and as I said several years back, I I didn't know what it is either.
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  But it's basically it it's hard to describe.
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  There have been books written about this very topic about the difficulty of describing it
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  because It can be slightly different in each country, and it is around the world.
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  There is populism around the world now.
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  So if you take up democracy, populism, and then an autocratic way of dealing with governance,
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  that's it's kind of the middle spot before you go to a dictatorship.
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  So, it's a political movement.
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  It's usually led by a very charismatic leader who claims that the people who he's trying to
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  lead or is leading have been cheated by the elite or the establishment.
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  And this person, I say he There are, I mean, there are a couple of women who are involved in
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  this too.
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  Primarily it's been men, but that doesn't mean that it can't be women.
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  Anyway, this charismatic leader says that he or she is going to change things.
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  Get back to the people what is a rightfully theirs and it makes a lot of promises.
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  I'm rarely and I don't know if it's ever been the case that people get back all of the things
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  that have been promised.
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  Now that probably true of most politicians.
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  They have great ideas, and they can't always make this happen.
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  But this is a little more insidious because often the the person knows they can't really do
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  it, but they they want to when they wanna get the support of the people, and therefore, they
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  promise just about everything.
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  So it's a little bit more than just promising then.
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  Right?
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  Cause I would say that most of us would believe that and this is, I know, a belief that you
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  hear from the average person that with every campaign and, you know, and in Canada or, you
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  know, you being in the US that, you know, people, you know, whoever the, you know, they
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  comment is that, you know, the person that's trying to come in is going to dispute or,
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  negate potentially, things that were done in that previous administration, and promise,
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  promise, promise, but popular you're saying popularism is a little bit deeper in that the
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  leader or the group of leaders, are they aware that they can make change, or is it that
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  they're trying to tap into something within people that makes them believe that this is the
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  actual leader that can do it.
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  I the the latter, they they use a lot of deception and they promote promote faults,
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  beliefs.
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  Lying is commonplace.
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  That's a thread no matter how different it may be in different countries.
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  That's a thread that runs throughout populous countries.
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  That there's a lot of lying, a lot of deceit, and the these leaders infused movements with a
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  emotion.
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  For example, though, they might be at, a rally, and they really get people going to believe
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  what they wanted to believe.
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  It doesn't matter whether it's true or not.
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  It just gets them all riled up.
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  So then then these people leave, and they're out to do this and do that.
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  And in many cases do what populist leaders have have either suggested or sent directly for them
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  to do.
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  So it also eliminates free speech.
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  So would you say that through the through the ages that there us has always been this concept
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  of popularism, or would you say that it's been gaining momentum, in the last, say, you know,
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  decade or 2.
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  I think you get to go to the head of the class.
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  Because that's a very good question.
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  It's old and it's been gaining momentum.
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  It's actually I read that it it goes back to ancient Greece.
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  So it's, obviously, that was a long time ago.
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  So it's not the it's not a a new concept for sure.
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  But it has gained momentum.
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  And I can get into this in in a minute or 2, but it A lot of it had to do with whether you
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  like this person or not, it had to do with Donald Trump and his style.
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  And his way of, for example, going to rallies and getting people all riled up.
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  The reason it's affected, leaders in other countries around the world is they may have
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  been doing this.
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  But the United States had previously, maybe still is in some circles, has been thought of
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  as the most powerful country in the world perhaps aside from China, Russia's a a
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  different different things, different topic, but but many people thought that the United
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  States was the country that that was or is the most powerful.
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  And if the leader of a major leading country or the most powerful country could do something,
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  then, of course, they can do it too.
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  So that's the trunk connection.
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  Okay.
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  So that almost like so if there are people that have that potential concept in their mind, now
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  they're actually seeing it on a big stage.
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  They're set to stage with the US being center stage and other potential people that may have
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  had that concept is going Okay.
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  Maybe it's possible.
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  So hence, what you're saying is that in fact, people that maybe hadn't thought it was
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  possible were seeing the possibility that this could gain, gain momentum to be a populist?
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  Absolutely.
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  I could tell you one quick specific example.
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  So Victor Orban is a populist leader of Hungry.
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  He's got a real tight rein on the country.
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  Bucky doesn't think any hung anybody should marry hungarians that, should only be
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  hungarians in the country.
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  Other people can visit but they're not supposed to.
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  They're not supposed to get married and have children.
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  Anyways, so Victor Orban was doing his thing and Trump got in and he and trump befriended
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  each other.
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  And now Victor Orban is sort of the poster person, the poster man, for the alt right part
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  of the Republican party, In fact, he was recently in the United States, speaking at a
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  CPAP, which is a political action co committee.
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  I don't know if you're familiar with that, but it's a big Republican operation, and he was
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  here speaking, and it was all over the news.
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  So This has really helped Tim.
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  It's helped his popularity in Hungary to be affiliated with the Republican Party in the
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  United States and and and Donald Trump too.
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  So Okay.
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  So we've had through the times we both, I mean, power is power.
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  Right?
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  And we either had democratic power or or, dictictictorial power.
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  But now you're saying, my sense of what you're saying about populism and and, you know, Karen,
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  you're educating me as I'm sure a lot of people are listening and going, wow.
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  That's interesting.
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  We know how it plays out on, you know, on radio or TV, but to actually talk about it and talk
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  about history is important.
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  So what popular is in them and what we've seen in the world and we've seen, like you said, the
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  US being center stage, do you think that a lot of people are using the model that they see
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  what what happened in the US as now maybe we can emulate that.
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  So like you said, like with the Hungarian president.
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  I do think that, and I think another example is Brazil.
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  Bolsonaro was a populist feeder before before Trump was elected or at least he was at
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  politics.
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  Trump is kind of a newcomer to politics.
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  If you think about it, when he was doing whatever he was doing at Atlantic City.
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  He was in, his businesses in New York.
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  So most politicians have been at this for a lot longer, and that's the case with, Bolsonaro in
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  in Brazil.
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  But when Trump came in, they formed a bond as he formed the bond I was talking about with the
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  person in, Victor Arbonnet in Hungary.
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  And so it it It's like he got a shot in the ark.
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  People were wondering about him, but he came more he became more popular.
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  But again, the faults and deceitful things that happen with with Populous leaders is that they
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  say all kinds of outrageous things.
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  For example, at one point, Bolsonaro said that if a person got a COVID vaccination that they
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  would turn into a crocodile.
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  So that sounds that sounds pretty far out, but people believe these people because they're
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  often also Prequently like cult leaders.
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  And so it doesn't if somebody's following a cult leader and they really admire and they're
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  into this cult.
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  It it almost doesn't matter what they say.
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  It's just that that they're saying it.
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  Can become believable.
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  And and that sounds like a far out example, but he did say it, and people did believe it.
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  Did people just did resolve, believe it, or was this a your you like, what did he have people?
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  Like you said, you know, when you think of cults, it's kinda like, what are you feeding
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  people and and having a captive audience where you could influence them.
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  So when he said that, was that something just in Brazil, or did the rest of the kind of an
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  international platform kinda I can talk a lot about this comments.
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  Well, I think I as far as I know, people in Brazil, I mean, probably possibly know a lot
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  about crocodiles.
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  I I think it was a a thing that happened in Brazil.
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  Okay.
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  Okay.
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  So let's let's look at it.
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  You're a psychologist.
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  You've been doing lots of work with people, you know, with myself and similar backgrounds.
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  We know that mindset is the key thing that, you know, in in in culture, we buy into certain
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  concept.
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  So when we think about why you wrote this book from a psychoanalytic kind of and the subtitle
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  is blame shifting, blame shifting and crops.
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  Remind me blame shifting and
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  blame you.
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  So it's It's projected identification, blame shifting, and the corruption of democracy.
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  Of of democracy.
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  So when we think of this, and think of you writing this book, Karen.
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  What were you trying to show the world?
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  With this piece of work.
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  Obviously, it's a it's something that's whether you want to say you understand Populism or not.
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  We all put on our TVs.
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  We all are fear based.
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  We've been fear based and fear driven for about two and a half to three years.
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  And even though we would think, okay, I'm I'm gonna ignore what's happening know, I'm about
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  15 minutes from the border.
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  We're gonna ignore that.
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  It's kinda hard to do that because, of course, it's plastered internationally over every
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  platform.
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  Why did you decide to write this book at this time?
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  Well, just to make a comment about what you said about being close to the border and and
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  populism, in gendering or a greeting fear, it it it absolutely capitalizes on fear.
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  So, people people are afraid.
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  So that's just a comment, a side comment.
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  I wrote this book because of some mechanisms involved.
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  And I think that they are there again is a thread that runs throughout populism around the
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  world.
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  And it's unfortunate that the word project identification is is something that not very
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  many people know about.
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  It's a psychoanalytic term, but there there are a number of psychoanalysts who really don't
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  understand it.
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  That's why I came up as a I came up with the idea of blame shifting as a sub too because I
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  think a lot of people know.
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  I even heard the the president of China say, or head of China say blame shifting in a couple of
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  months ago.
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  So people understand what blame shifting is.
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  So projective identification is an unconscious process.
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  People don't necessarily know that they're doing it but blame shifting is the same
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  mechanism, but people are aware that they're doing it.
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  And this is the something.
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  So there's something that someone doesn't really like about himself or herself, and that
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  they can't tolerate it.
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  They put it on someone else or another group of people.
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  So for example, bullies do this all the time.
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  Bullies have been bullied previously, and they don't feel good about what they've been bullied
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  about.
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  But if the to get rid of it, feels a lot better.
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  So they put it on another kid, say, a scrawny kid at the playground.
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  They say, oh, you weekly, you this, you got column all kinds of names, The attention is
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  drawn to that kid and away from the bully, and the bully gets a little relief for a while.
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  So this is the same sort of mechanism that happens that person doesn't like something or
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  has trouble with something.
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  If they put it on another group, then they get rid of it.
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  And so sometimes it's oh, they're not aware that they're doing it.
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  Sometimes they are very aware that they're doing it.
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  This happens with populists in that they split people into good groups and bad groups of
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  people.
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  It's not like, okay.
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  Here's a group of people.
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  I see there are good characteristics and also there are negative ones.
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  So they see the whole person or the whole group of people.
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  It's like immigrants are bad.
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  So that's one thing that's very consistent, across across, any country lines.
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  They're all against immigration and immigrants.
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  They're part of the bad group.
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  So, and and it eventually becomes conscious.
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  For example, if you think about Donald Trump, he does he doesn't like immigrants.
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  I don't think that's any secret.
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  And they go to extreme measures to exclude exclude people, sometimes.
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  For example, putting a central American children in cages that's pretty extreme.
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  But if you don't go to that extreme, you don't have to.
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  To be anti, immigration.
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  You just don't want the people in your country or you don't let them get jobs or whatever, but
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  the consistency that the things that are consistent is that populist leaders, lie and
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  and they are racist, and there are anti immigration.
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  So those are the the main things that that, tie them all together.
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  I'm not sure if I answered your question.
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  Yeah.
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  So so If that's the case then and we're talking about being it being cultish, and there's many
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  populous like you said, with with your research for this book, there's many, it was a you said
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  about 10 to 12 leaders that are of this Jean.
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  I'm gonna use the word John, right, maybe the incorrect term.
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  So with mindset then, let's go to mindset, right?
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  Because we know where we're at.
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  We're in fear based.
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  We've been coming off, and we're still in COVID.
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  A lot of people are petrified and I'm I'm often still shocked Karen.
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  How petrified people are just to even do basic things anymore.
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  So when we take that fear and then we put it in a populist context, what does that do to the
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  mindset of the average person?
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  Well, I think that there are I think there are a few things that and by the way, I I I just
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  wanna clarify.
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  There are many populist leaders.
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  I think I I read the other day that I'm sorry if this was misleading.
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  I think I read something about the 46 populist leaders around the world.
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  I was I I had focused on in my in my book.
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  I believe there are 15 Okay.
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  Around the world, but there are many more than 15.
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  But those are the sort of the ones that came out and and grabbed me.
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  So those are the ones that I wrote about.
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  What does a person do?
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  Well, a person is either in denial, and they just push politics away.
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  Is that how to deal with it?
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  I just don't go there.
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  Can do it.
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  Or they take sides.
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  They, there are a lot of people.
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  And whether you're, pro trump or anti trump, this this country, for example, you know, of
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  the United States is polarized in a major way.
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  So that's another thing people do with their anxiety.
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  They join up with one side or the other.
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  There are, I mean, obviously, a lot of people who have have joined, with Trump.
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  I think that the the elections, the election results we're seeing from state primaries have
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  shown that there are a lot of people who are voting for Republicans, and a lot of this
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  republicans have been supported by Trump.
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  So that's just as an example of what people do joy join with one side or the other.
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  This was such a great interview that we decided to turn it into a 2 part series.
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  Be sure to tune in next week for part 2 so you don't miss out on the amazing content.
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  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
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  healthy change.
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  Roxanne is a keynote speaker psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
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  roxannedurhaj.com/blueprint.
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  We'll see you next time, an authentic living with Roxanne.