Latest / The Speak Life Podcast / Interview with Sam Allberry || What Can We Learn from the Ravi Zacharias Scandals? || SLP 348

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Interview with Sam Allberry || What Can We Learn from the Ravi Zacharias Scandals? || SLP 348 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to the Speaker Podcast.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Glenn Scribbin.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad to have your company.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Today on the show, we've got Sam Aubrey, Author, Speaker Plus, and a former employee of Rabbi Zachary Mass International Ministries.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: What's it like to be on the inside of Z IM?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: What's it like to have allegations that are made of your founder?
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: And what's it like to be told certain things by the leadership about the stories?
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: What's it like to start asking privately and then ever more publicly questions about Rabbit?
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Ten Mulfreed does not claim to have gotten everything right in his journey, but he is a man of integrity and wisdom.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: And he's been learning lessons through this whole episode.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: They are lessons that we all need to learn.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't wait to share with you this interview.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Do make sure you are subscribed to this podcast on your favourite podcatcher so that you can get our future episodes.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: We've got some superb guests coming up.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: We've got Dr.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Diane Langberg, who is a world expert on this area of abuse, on the power dynamics that are behind it, and on how to create safe places where people can find true security and healing.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Diane Langberg is coming up.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: We're working on a date in April, but I can't wait to share that interview with you.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: And next week we've got Becca Legg, who is the director of Restored Ministries here in the UK.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: They are dedicated to helping church respond well to abuse.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: The kind of abuse that surfaces in the church, whether that's spiritual abuse or sexual abuse, physical abuse, or domestic abuse.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Becca's got some real wisdom to share with us, and uh I can't wait to share that episode with you next week.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: But without further ado, here is my interview with Sam Aubrey.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um I joined the team in 2016, spring of 2016, um, had been familiar with the work of the team and with the work of Ravi for several years.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: I remember hearing um Ravi speak at a mission in Oxford, I think, in the early 2000s.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: It was the first time I came across his ministry and had got to know various other UK team members, Amy Or Ewing, Michael Ramsden, and uh joined the team in in 2016.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: So um have known of them and worked with them for for a fairly long time.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: And tell us about um some of the relationship between the there's there's OKA in the UK, which is the Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics, and there's the Zacharias Trust, and there's RZIM Global.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: How do those things all sort of line up together?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, RZIM is the global ministry.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um the UK branch of it is being known as the Zacharias Trust, and one of the ministries of the Zacharias Trust has been Oka, the the um program in Oxford.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: And what was it that sort of drew you to um the ministry in in the first place?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, it really was it was their conviction that um we we need to have evangelism undergirded by apologetics.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: And whilst I've never sort of seen myself primarily as an evangelist, um I, through my own sort of thinking and writing and ministry, have been sort of straying further and further into various areas of apologetics, particularly with issues of sexuality and gender identity and those kinds of discussions, and um was they they were kind enough to invite me to join the team, and I thought that this would be a good group of people to work alongside as we seek to respond to the big questions of life.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm still passionate about doing that.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um trying to find compelling answers to the the big questions that people have today.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um my background is as you said is is really serving as a pastor.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's more how I see my primary sense of gifting and and vocation.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um but increasing that I I don't think we can be pastors without being apologists if we live in a in the Western world at the moment.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, part of my um part of my my burden, part of my my my longing is to help equip the church to to respond well to the cultural challenges that we face and the opportunities that we face.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I was glad uh to to be part of the team and to be serving alongside them in that in that kind of capacity.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: And the man himself, Ravi Zacharias, uh it strikes me that though he did have a global ministry, he wasn't that often in the UK.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly as someone who's lived uh a large part of my life in the in the UK, I can't think of a time when there was a sort of a a Ravi tour of the UK and that that sort of thing.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um but what what what was your connection with the man himself either before you um joined the the the organization and and then since?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I met him briefly as part of my um uh joining the team.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um but but as you say, he he's not someone who's been as visible in the UK as you know in terms of ministry as he has been in in other places.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um on the team, our paths would cross maybe two or three times a year, um either at team meetings or occasionally we'd both be uh speaking at the same event.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I I've had several casual conversations with him.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think we we had lunch together once.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um but other than that it it's it's sort of being we we weren't close.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um there are others on the team who who worked with him far more closely and and over a long much longer period of time than than I would have done.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um does anything stand out to you in terms of those those interactions like lunch or or well he he always came across as someone who was very um self-effacing and and humble.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um he was a very charismatic individual.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it was that those interactions were always he was you know extremely polite and and self-deprecating and um that they're yeah, very pleasant interactions.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: But uh I I I I couldn't say I knew the man himself, and obviously even those who thought they did now realize to a large extent that they didn't.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um so he wasn't someone who sort of you know was a was a sort of an open book.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um some people you can have one lunch with and you feel like you know them.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um he wasn't sort of as as open as as that.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's always one of those hindsight is 2020 things, isn't it?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's you you start to see things that might have been obvious.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um if you knew what you knew in 2021, you would have viewed things a bit differently in 2016, say.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um are there any sort of things like that as you as you look back?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um not in terms of my own personal interactions with him, but obviously um more generally, you know, we we're aware that he was on the road often 200, 250 days a year.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he wasn't a member of a church, and those two two facts just alone, you know, would make you wonder about the someone's spiritual health.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um I remember when the uh the spa allegations first surfaced and the Christianity Today piece first came out, I remember thinking they were very credible, very plausible.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the team members said to me, Well, why do you find it credible?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember thinking, well, when someone is away from home that amount of time and doesn't seem to have any spiritual oversight, I'm not going to be completely surprised if they've been leading a double life.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I don't mean that claiming any kind of you know special insight, but just as a as a basic as a basic principle, those those are not healthy dynamics to be ministering in.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I this is you know that the leadership is of the the ministry has has said as much.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was it was too easy to give him a pass on that based on his gifting, and to think, oh well, it's Ravi, so it's okay because look at look at how the Lord is using him.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: And uh that's obviously you know, uh again something we we need to learn something very serious from.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Is is is gifting is not um is not a reason to sort of think someone doesn't need the same spiritual disciplines and means of grace that the Bible says all of us need.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's no kind of asterisk in in the New Testament to that effect of you know, if someone is super gifted, it doesn't actually doesn't matter if they're not part of a church or something like that.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, there's lots of things to we should have thought more about at the time and um and and and it I th I think we're learning some people did challenge him on some of those things and he wasn't open to to receiving that kind of challenge.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: So to give a bit of a timeline, I I I guess some of the first scandals that were breaking were um the inflation of credentials, um dating back uh I think Steve Boffman could could date things back to 1980 when Ravi was was claiming to be a department head at a seminary that had no departments.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then more uh prominently there were um claims of uh uh being a Cambridge student and an Oxford professor and and claiming to be doctor in a way that um those who had earned PhDs uh would uh severely question.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess that kind of credentials thing was was already kind of in the public domain to some degree.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Was it was it ever a part of the the conversation at uh as I am?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: It was, yes.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and not to be um and and maybe I wasn't listening carefully enough, and that's that's that is a a possibility and and something that I I've I've certainly been guilty of at other points in this whole process.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: But as I recall, most of the conversation around the credentials kind of the the narrative that I heard at least was you know, he's he's got all of these honorary doctorates, and part of the Eastern cultural thing is is you know that you know it would it would not be unusual in in that cultural context to call yourself a doctor given that.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I sort of thought maybe there's a bit of cultural stuff, maybe he's just been a bit clumsy and um careless with that.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: I hadn't at the time gone through the the the stuff Steve Boffman was was trying to to draw to our attention and hadn't seen the extent of that.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it was more serious than I had realised.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'd assumed it was you know, any anytime I I speak anywhere in America, I've got an English accent, and people call I'll often be introduced as Dr.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Sam Algrid.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't have a PhD, it's got an English accent.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you know I thought maybe it's that kind of, you know, people have sort of misunderstood and he's not corrected them carefully enough.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I'd I'd sort of understood it as being more accidental than deliberate.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um and obviously we're you know I'm aware now that it it was much more of a pattern of seemingly an intentional um deceit.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: It seems to me that uh part of the reason why Ravi was uh allowed to get away with things was was partly because of the the inflation of the persona and the building of the platform and here's the here's the mask and look how glitzy it is which uh the the further that gets from reality, the greater the breach is and the more space there is for the sins to fester underneath.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think again it's one of those things with with hindsight you think, well, obviously.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um but but you're you're right, at the time it it it seems it it might seem like a it is it is a much lesser crime than sexual abuse.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: It it it is, but it's it's the context in which that abuse can take place and the other thing that strikes me about that is is that it was Steve Boffman um who um was doing the Ravi Watch stuff and I I guess his his book uh what was his book, Something in the Kingdom in 2017?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so something like that.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'll I'll uh we'll we'll we'll put it along the bottom here.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: But um he was writing that book in about 2017, and and the first thing that tipped him off was the credentials thing.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I I do wonder if we we didn't listen to him because he was an atheist.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't wonder, I I know, in in terms of us as a ministry, me individually.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I'm not I'm not excusing myself from this, but we we were told as staff he's a he's just this kind of crazy blogger who's got this fixation, we're trying to bring down Ravi.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: We were told to ignore him and to not respond to him.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so I I didn't.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: And to my shame, um, this you know, and again, being able to say, well, he's an atheist, so therefore he's obviously got an axe to grind and some agenda.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, um may God humble us that it was an atheist trying to tell the ostensibly truth-speaking Christian ministry the truth.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: He was trying to do apologetics with an with a group of apologists.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we we owe him a we owe him a debt.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: I owe him an apology.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, he he's been working very you know diligently for for many, many years on this.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Help us with that biblically and theologically.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um that sometimes a prophet arises from outside the church.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Could that be possible?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course it of course it is.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: There is there is common grace um all around us.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: There is there is there is always truth, uh, even in in worldviews that that are are far from the Christian worldview.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: And there there can be people who don't know the Lord, but who do have a conviction about right and wrong that the church can learn from, um as seems to be the case with with Steve Hoffman.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like in the in the prophets again and again uh there were those who would cling on to their um ethnic identity and their spiritual identity.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: And we've got the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, as Jeremiah says in chapter seven.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um and all the while it's the Lord bringing those from outside God's people to bring judgment onto God's people and and to tear down their most cherished um spiritual securities which had become idols to them.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um it it seems like um Steve is in is very much in that tradition um to me.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: But then the the next sort of um scandal that that really um rocked us was was Lorianna Thompson and um this relationship that Ravi had sort of initiated and um what what was uh what was known at the time in R Z IM and what um since that time has come to light?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, what what um what we were told was that this was a a case of of someone who was a serial extortionist trying to again trying to take down Ravi.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um his his own account to us as a staff team at the time was that he had been naive in his dealing with her, in in kind of having a a sort of um in his own personal emails back and forth with her.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it was it was very much explained as this is someone who was who was trying to entrap him and extort him.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: And from from the inside, I was thinking, well, Ravi's got this, you know, many decades of of being above reproach.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um I you know I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, and we were given what looked like evidence that this was extortion.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um so initially that was a sort of okay, so that that's what's going on with that.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: As as more information began to to kind of come into the public domain, some of his emails to Lorianne Thompson were leaked.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um it didn't look quite as straightforward as that.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um there was the the the threat of suicide and other comments that he made to her that made you think this doesn't look like merely I've been a bit naive in having a a kind of some form of email, personal email correspondence, more seems to be afoot.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: And his his sort of kind of non-apology apology to us and and more publicly was that you know he said something to the effect of I I failed to exercise godly caution in my digital communications or something like that.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember feeling at the time it feels like it's probably more than that, um, and that something more than that seems to be going on, and then then the thing about the NDA came out, and again that was explained to us as well this is this is just normal in in kind of legal settings, and I don't know legal stuff at all.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought, well, okay, maybe that maybe is not a cause for concern that he's got an NDA with her, but it again with hindsight, and I I'm not excusing my um lack of due diligence at the time.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: In hindsight, it it's not consistent with being above reproach to be in that situation, to have an NDA, and then again didn't find out this till some time later to that that there had been a financial settlement as well.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: So there were things we were told as as a team that we now know were not true.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we had been told money hadn't changed hands, that everything had been looked into.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: We've been told that the board had looked had access to all of Ravi's emails to her, that everything had been looked into and was fine, and we didn't need to worry.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I remember thinking, well, on the one hand it it feels a little bit fishy, but on the other hand, I'm I'm being given assurances by these ministry leaders that I know and trust that actually it it has we have done due diligence, it has been investigated and not to worry about it.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: So um I I remember feeling a a little just a little torn at the time um of feeling feeling that that conflict of I know these people and I trust these people, and it feels like there's a bit more going on here.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: And again, that that's that's on me.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um I believed monstrous lies about Lorianne Thompson, and even if I had a a sort of an inkling, I think something more may have gone on here, I should have asked more questions.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: I should have um I shouldn't have just put it to one side.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um so uh and I feel very convicted of that, and you know, um I think it's James 4 17 or around there where it says he who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it since um it was a sin of a mission.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um to which, you know, I I've been able to reach out to Lori Ann Thompson and and to personally apologize to her for that sin against her of not doing the good I should have done and and actually didn't know I needed to do at the time.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that was that was the the situation back in late 17, early 2018.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: And as it turns out through the um Miller and Martin report of of this year, um if they had looked at Ravi's phone at that stage, it would have corroborated everything that Laurianne had been saying.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: And phones plural, um, because we we now know he had four or five of them or something like that.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um no, absolutely, it would it completely corroborates her account of things um and would have saved three years of further abuse from taking place.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: So what what's the lesson?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: So knowing what you know now, um if if you're in a Christian ministry or a church and um allegations are made, um knowing what you know now, what's uh what is what is the correct response?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm I don't have a definitive answer to that because I'm still trying to figure that out.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um I one of the one of the the obvious lessons from this is always to ask of a of a ministry what what what accountability is in place, what transparency is in place?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um because there are there are there are two parts to this there's the sin of the the individual himself And there's also the integrity of the ministry that he worked for.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: So something I'm I'm talking through with the pastoral leadership of the church I'm at now in Nashville is what means of transparency can we put in place as pastoral leaders that actually protects the integrity of the church in terms of finances, in terms of our use of devices, in terms of our travel itinerary and that kind of thing.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's something we're actually working on right now.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's not going to stop me from sinning because I'm the sin is in my heart and structures can restrict opportunities, but you know, if you want to sin, you will find a way to sin.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: But at the very least, it could protect the integrity of the local church so they could say, well, we on our end, we've we've done what we can to make sure there is realistic transparency.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so with in the case of Ravi, there clearly wasn't, I don't think, any accountability.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um he was free to travel on his own for extended periods of time.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know to what extent people in the ministry would have known where he was at any given moment, where he was staying, or who he was with, that kind of thing.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um and did Ditto with his his use of devices.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: So there are certainly significant lessons, and you know, and I've already had conversations with other ministries, and you know, the question is well, what is our board doing to make sure actually we we're above approach as an organization on these things?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what does due diligence look like for church leadership teams, for boards of elders, for ministry boards, and that kind of thing?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um and what are we doing as as Christian leaders, pastors, speakers to to make sure that as far as is is appropriate and realistic and and healthy that our that there is transparency in our own handling of things.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that that's one certainly one thing to learn from all of this.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that if if an allegation ever does come, that the church can at least say, well, these are the things we we've always in made sure that we have access to and can know.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um at the very least is a is a better starting point than we've got no idea what he's been up to.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that that leader is not above reproach.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that that that leader can be called to account and whatever image they have projected for the past however many decades, um you know, the balance of probabilities that that person is lying.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um well the probability goes up massively if they're not connected to a church, if they're not accountable, if their you know phone is off the grid and all those other things, if if they are known for um inflating their credentials, etc.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we we deflate that probability, but I I think also with those who allege abuse, um, we ought to bump up at at least in most people's understanding, the probability that they are bringing a truthful accusation because the number of hurdles they have to get over in order to be brave enough to make accusations against powerful men is actually immense.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and therefore um what some you know some some might assume that um everyone's going around making false accusations of powerful people all the time.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um but actually the pa the power dynamics are such that um actually the probability of that is low.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and it seems like we need to tilt our understanding well, I I think I need to tilt my understanding massively in in in favor of at least giving the most fair hearing I possibly can to such allegations.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I completely agree with that.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: And another another aspect of this less significant than the one you've just raised, which I think is probably the most important thing we can learn from this, is what are appropriate levels of trust?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um we don't want to be cynical people who don't trust anyone.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we're meant to live as Christians with with a degree of trust in one another and of those in leadership over us.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: But we're not to be naive either, and it's not to be unquestioning, uncritical, uninformed trust.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's trust that should be based on you know being above reproach, on on having the right level of transparency and that kind of thing.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's seen trust rather than blind trust.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um because it's it's easy after something like this has happened to say, see, the only person you can trust is Jesus.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that's true in an ultimate sense, and and one of the great comforts for me through this whole season has been that the joyous reassurance, we will never discover an ugly side to Jesus that has been hidden from us.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: That is always a possibility with with anybody else.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um there will never there's never that risk with Jesus.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um but we're still meant to live with a degree of trust in one another.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it's got to be informed and not uncritical.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um and one of the things that we've again been learning through this process is that from what we what we're hearing is that Ravi did not respond well to the times when people did question him or challenge him, and that itself is another sign that you are not above reproach.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that those are things that are coming to light that are again are very serious.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: If someone is if someone's response to legitimate probing and questioning um about their own personal conduct is anger, that is that is not a good sign that they are someone who is qualified to be in Christian leadership.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: It should be a massive red flag.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um but is it it's a sign of the the the massive charisma, I guess, of Ravi that he could get away with.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Not just charisma, but uh I think what we're seeing is from what people have been sharing in recent days is is intimidation.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: So there's the charisma side of things, but you you can be spellbound by him, but there's the intimidation of if you say the wrong thing and ask the wrong question, you you're crushed by him and you won't do it again.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that that seems to have been going on as well during this time, which which again means there were many signs it transpires that he was not fit to be in ministry, and signs that should have been evident over many, many years.
• 29:21
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• 29:25
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• 29:29
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• 29:37
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• 29:44
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• 29:48
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• 29:51
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• 29:57
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• 30:00
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• 30:02
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• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: So he died in May 2020.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then when was it?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Was about September when the story broke about uh three massage therapists um who had worked at a spa that was jointly owned by Ravi making allegations of all sorts of inappropriate uh behavior.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um it seemed like the initial response from RZIM was that you know these reports do not match the the man that we know.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um looking back on that statement, how do you feel?
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was it was it was not a statement I was happy with at the time because as well as saying that it said we the teammates and family or something like that of Ravi Zacharias believe these allegations to be false.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember saying at the time, I'm a teammate, I'm on the I'm on the team here.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: I can't say that.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um it doesn't doesn't mean I I know for a fact they're all true, but I I I can't say I believe them to be false.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: The you know the the story as it was broken by Christianity today was was extremely credible.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: This this was responsible, honest to goodness journalism um from a reputable journalist, um Daniel Silliman.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I think you know these are these are really this this is legit.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um we need I I found it I I believed it.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um I believed those allegations, and so I I I said I can't I can't say I believe these allegations to be false.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um I can understand saying this doesn't fit with a man I've known for for 30 years, because it's possible to know someone for 30 years and not realize who they are.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: We we now know there were things that were known by some in the leadership about Ravi that make that statement now sound deeply disingenuous.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was a um it was a a very inadequate statement, and that the subsequent statements from the leadership have have, I think, acknowledged that.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you voiced that at the time, didn't you?
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: You said, look, I'm I'm a teammate, I I I find these women's stories credible.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um how was that received?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um in a variety of different ways.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: My my first my first concern was to protect the freedom of conscience for the for the ministry team.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we we had a a staff Q ⁇ A and um I wanted the first question to be I thought I'll I just said listen I I believe these allegations.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um they seem highly credible to me.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: My question is, do we have freedom of conscience?
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Am I allowed to say what I just said?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: And can we have assurance that that no one will be made to feel disloyal or unspiritual if they do believe these allegations?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Can you guarantee freedom of conscience?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: And the answer was given that yes, of course, there will be complete freedom of conscience, that that's fine.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um there were some who were deeply unhappy that I had said that, um, who did feel it was disloyal.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: There were some members of the team in other parts of the world, and even members of the family who felt it was a kind of betrayal, and I shouldn't be on the team if I think that.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I I know from uh just from interactions with the wider team that we have victims of sexual assault as part of the team, um people who've been abused at other times in their life and who I I knew would be feeling very feeling very vulnerable at a time like this.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: And my main concern was was not, you know, how is this going to go down with the family, but how are they gonna be cared for?
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um are they gonna be safe if this for them is is triggering memories of their own experience and again ringing very true in their ears that this this is credible and and probable.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um so then uh R ZM put the global commissions a report and eventually it's um the law firm, isn't it, Miller and Martin, um that undertook um to to do that.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um did you have any inkling that the report would be as devastating as it turned out to be?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, only on on the basis that I had I had no reason to disbelieve the the charges being brought um from the Christianity today article.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: I remember when I first read that article, it was it was devastating.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um again, Daniel Silliman had done due diligence.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he he's he's not a um a self-appointed, you know, lone ranger on this.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: He he's he's working under professional editorial constraints and standards.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I I had no reason to think it wasn't true based on his his careful work.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: And the the grieving process many are going through now, I went through then.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Many many of us went through it then in September as we as we read that article.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember thinking, um, you know, I've I've heard I've heard some of our team members commending faith in the resurrection of Jesus based on less evidence than the Christianity Today piece is is offering us of these allegations.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um I had no good reason to to disbelieve them.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I I had a sort of baseline assumption that the if the if the investigation was being done well and legitimately, it would most likely corroborate those things that were being said in Christianity today.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: It would certainly be extremely hard to disprove them.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um and the thought did occur if if this is what he was getting up to in Atlanta, what might he have been getting up to on these long solo trips to Southeast Asia?
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then that they released a preliminary kind of finding in in December that the you know the investigation released a preliminary finding to the effect that we can corroborate uh the allegations and we have found evidence of more serious, uh I think their language was more serious misconduct.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we you know we were all kind of bracing ourselves then for what the final report would contain.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it was certainly we, you know, I think all of us were expecting it to be distressing and and horrifying, and indeed it indeed it was.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think not least because what we see in that final report isn't oh, this is someone who struggled it it was so brazen and so willful and right up until the point he went into hospital to die of cancer.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, right up to the end he was still doing these things, um with no apparent indication of any kind of contrition or repentance or confession or any of those things.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um it and just on a scale and over a a time period that is is is deeply horrifying.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: How do you how do you account for that?
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, the blog pages are um numerous about, you know, was he saved or was he not saved?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: Do we um do we do we conclude that he was a phony from the outset um or not?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um what do what do you think happened to Ravi to uh a l to let it get that bad?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: I I just don't know.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean um maybe this was something he was always never going to yield on, and it it it you know it could have been this could have been what he was up to from day one.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: It could have been one of those bit-by-bit incremental things.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: He himself said many times that similar take you further than you want to go.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um maybe he was maybe that was as close as he's as he got to confessing something to us.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I I just don't know um whether he got himself gradually more and more ensnared in this or whether you know whether even the the ministry itself was the structure he purposefully built in order for this to happen.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um I just don't know.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: The Lord the Lord knows.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe as more details come out over the years we'll get a a sort of bigger sense of the the kind of the narrative of this and the the history of this.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um but either way, we we it it just reinforces the urgency in our own lives of putting to death the misdeeds of the flesh and of having people in our lives that we can confess our sins to.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the big takeaways from this for me over these these many months has been, you know, that there's confession of sin to the Lord, but the the Bible does tell us to confess our sins to one another as well.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so the question I've been asking myself, I ask ask my friends is you know, who who do you confess your sins to?
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um who who's in your life that you can do that with?
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um we we need that desperately, and we're not good at it, and it's very un-English, but that's not the issue.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um we're we're we've got to be Christian.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um and there's there are aspects of our Englishness and fear of awkwardness, we we just have to crucify those things as well, if it if it if obedience to Christ necessitates it.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we we need to have people that who who actually know the best of us and the worst of us.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um people we can confess our sins to and and walk in the light with.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, and whatever cultural background you're from, it's you know fascinating.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: As soon as Adam and Eve sin, what's the first thing they want to do?
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, fig leaves.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then hiding behind the trees.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's we're always we're always trying to look good in the presence of judgment instead of trying to look bad in the presence of love, which is uh the redemption of that that that Christ brings.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um it is and God God is God can cover our sins.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we we think we can, but we can't.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: He actually can.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we if we if we uncover them before him, we can find in Christ that they're covered through him.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um but if we try and hide them from him and from others, it just never ever works, does it?
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: We we think we get away with it, it just never works.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: Our sins find us out and our sins spread and cause such havoc.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um Tell me what what do you I mean I don't I don't have any Ravi Zacharias books to to throw out, but I think if I had some, I think I would.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um But th that there would be a number of reasons why people might do that.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, how how should people assess um the writing and the teaching of of Ravi now?
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um well for myself, um I I will be getting rid of his books.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um the the primary reason for that is because um Well, there's there's lots of reasons for that, but not the least of which is if if someone who is a victim of sexual abuse is ever in my house and sees a book with his name on it, um it's an act of kindness to not have someone be potentially triggered.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I don't want to I don't want them to see the the name of a known abuser on a shelf of of books that are looking like they're you know commending Christian truth.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um he is not a model of a Christian teacher.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um so he may have said things that were true and that that I learned from, um but I don't want to learn from him now because he he was never qualified to teach.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um so if if someone is not qualified biblically to to lead and to teach the people of God, um I I don't want to be having their book.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Alongside those who are.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: Plus, it there's a danger there that we kind of relativise this in and go, yeah, but the truth is still true, and therefore I can still read all of his books and kind of learn from them and park his character.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't think the New Testament encourages us to bifurcate in that kind of way.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's actually that kind of thinking that then justifies godly and ungodly behavior on the basis that, well, the ministry is still working, so we'll just kind of tolerate the sin.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um we've we've got to not separate what God has joined together, which is your your words and your person and your character and your ministry.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, absolutely.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: I've been very struck by that.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, you you want to say, okay, it's just Christ alone, and so um, of course, humans are going to be terrible.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then you you don't deal with with human sin and structures that are continuing to victimize people, and then this this bifurcation between you know truth and character.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is it's not the way God has gone about, you know, revealing truth to the world, is it?
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's not enough to say, well, all teachers are flawed, because the Bible says there are certain qualifications required for Christian ministry, and if someone is not qualified, they should not be in ministry.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um none of us is is a perfect pilot.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna get on a plane that anyone is flying.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: I want the pilot to be qualified.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: They're not gonna be perfect, they will be flawed, but actually the qualification matters because I'm I'm entrusting my life into their hands.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: And if we're entrusting our spiritual lives into someone's hands, we want to know that they're qualified and that someone has kind of done due diligence on that.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um and even if I find out a pilot who's been flying successfully for many years, if I find out actually they were never qualified, I'm I'm still not gonna get on a plane.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't care how many successful flights they've flown.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: If I if I now know they never went to flight school or whatever you do to learn to be a pilot, um I'm not gonna trust them to carry me safely.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good analogy.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say to people who um Ravi had been very important in their journey to faith?
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe they they do have all his books and and um yeah, he he was from a great distance.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: He seemed to be a spiritual father, and and many of those people are feeling incredibly rocked by this.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: What do you say to them?
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean that the the pastoral, quite apart from the what the victims themselves have gone through and and will need in terms of care, there are there are so many wide ripples of of kind of pastoral issues that are gonna are gonna flow out of this and and tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands maybe of of Christians who who will have been deeply distressed by all of this.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um Russell Moore wrote an article uh uh a little shortly after the report came out where uh he addressed this by saying it's when you when you discover the person who taught you the gospel was a fraud, it doesn't mean the gospel isn't true.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's the gospel that you trust, not the person who taught you the gospel.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um so to those who've come to faith or been significantly formed through Ravi's ministry, um your faith was never in Ravi.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean he he may have been someone you you trusted and and deeply respected as a as a teacher, may have had faith in him as a teacher, but your Christian faith was in was all has always been in Christ.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: And Ravi has let you down and b betrayed you, but Christ hasn't.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um the the gospel is is no less true.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's it's actually the truth of the gospel that exposes the depth of the betrayal.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um it does highlight the importance of um proclaiming Christ in your message so that the reason why someone might come to faith is because they are trusting the Christ you proclaim.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: And there is there is a danger going on if if your ministry is about um persuading people that you can be clever and a Christian, and people look up to Ravi and they say, He sounds clever, he's quoting people verbatim, and he has all these conversations with all the you know all these anonymous you know people who he trounced in debate um and they're not here to tell us their side of the story.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: But he he made you feel like you could be a clever person and a Christian.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think and I think a a a lot of the draw of Ravi's ministry was kind of that.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so how much how much more is the betrayal if the reason why they're coming to faith is not so much the Christ he proclaims, but if it's mixed in with a whole bunch of um you can trust the credibility of Dr.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: Zacharias who tells you these things, and it turns out not so much.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that that's true of some of the other scandals we've seen in recent days too, with the whole kind of celebrity pastor thing.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's hey, I can be I can be cool and a Christian.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, I can be intellectually respectable and a Christian, I can be pushy and obnoxious as a man and a Christian if I follow Mark Driscoll, you know, whatever it might be.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Which, you know, I'm struck in in Galatians, Paul talks about um longing to see Christ formed in you as the goal of his ministry.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't want to see himself in the people that he's ministering to, he wants to see Jesus being formed in them.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um that should be the you know, our our motives are always mixed at the best of times, but our deepest desire in Christian leadership should be that people are attracted to Christ and being formed into his likeness, and that we're we're kind of incidental along the way.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, we can be a good example and um point them in the right direction, but the the arrow isn't on us, the arrow is on is on Jesus.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he must increase, and it's not well, I if I increase, Jesus will increase.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: If I look good, he will look good.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's no no no, I've got to get out of the way, I've got to decrease so that he can increase, which means not put your faith in me and Jesus, but put your faith in Jesus means don't put your faith in me.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um hopefully I can say with Christian integrity, you know, follow my example as I follow the example of Christ, but even then it's a derivative example.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Christ is the one we're actually following.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's a word to all of us, isn't it?
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because we we we like our little empires, and we we you know, in any church you see something of the the best and worst of the pastor's personality being reflected in the life of the congregation, and it's why it's good to have plural eldership, multiple pastors, uh more than one teaching voice within the church, and um to sort of counterbalance some of those quirks and limitations.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: What what would you say to victims?
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you you've said that um you I mean you reached out to Loriana very graciously.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: She's um you she's um spoken to you and you you you've um gone back and forth.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um what would you say to people like Lorianne and and victims not only in the um in the Ravi case, but um especially those who at the hands of Christians who should have um behaved a whole lot better?
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what do you say?
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there there are people far more qualified to answer that question than than I am.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still learning in one sense what to say.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean my my initial my initial thing is is obviously up to anyone who's ever been abused by people who should have had who should have had their trust um or who who claim to have their trust is you know we we we weep with them.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: We we're so profoundly sorry that anyone has had to go through that.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'd I'd want someone to know in in time that our our Saviour is you know don't don't judge Jesus by the worst of his people.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um judge judge us by him The very categories we have for understanding the the true horror of abuse come to us precisely from the moral categories that Christ Himself embodies and that he condemns such things in in in the strongest possible terms.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um so in other words, my my my kind of pastoral yearning is for people to realise that Jesus is safe those who've come in his name might not have been, but he is.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: And in in time and this can take a very, very long time just from my own experience with church members who've who've gone through abuse um you know, to to begin to find Christians that that you can trust and that you can journey with who who will encourage you.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um that can take a very long time to to even think about going near a church or something like that.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: But um Yeah, we you know speaking for myself, I'm still um I'm still a novice when it comes to understanding a lot of these dynamics.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm grateful for the ministries of those who are equipping and teaching us on this.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think of Diane Lam Lamberg and Wade Mullen and Rachel Dan Hollander and uh many other voices who are helping us as as fellow Christians to respond in ways that are healthy and helpful rather than just you know I'm causing more hurt and trauma unwittingly.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we we've got Diane Langberg uh coming on uh the show later and um and Becca Legg uh from a UK uh perspective as well.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um tell us, Sam, just as we close, um w what is your situation now and and and as you look forward, um what do you think you'll be doing differently in ministry having lived through this season?
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, um so as for now, right now, um I I've my employment has been with the UK branch of of RZIM and um the the day following the report the um board for the UK team um announced that the UK team was entirely separating from from RZIM and they they gave the the reasons for that in their own uh their own statement.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: So with with them I am now not part of RZIM.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know that that's one decision that's that's been made as a as a UK team.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're we're obviously asking the the question should we should we still exist as a team?
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: Given all that's happened with the this ministry globally.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think it I think it was the right decision to to separate, but the question is should should we fold or or do we continue?
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_00: What what do we do now?
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: And we need to come before the Lord with with an open hand on that.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um as for myself, I you know my my sense of uh of of irrespective of all of these things, I I've been um in the process of trying to move to to Nashville for the the past year or so, and COVID has slowed that down enormously with visa applications and uh no longer being part of RZIM will slow that down even more.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I'm I'm still planning to be based over here, which means I will probably not um uh whatever happened to the UK team, I probably won't be a full member of the UK team solely because I'm I'm wanting to be based over here now anyway, and serving at the church here and uh continuing to think and teach uh where I can as well.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um in terms of excuse me, what what to do differently, some of that is already has already happened.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um I have two fellow pastors here in Nashville.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: We we try to meet once a week and we we walk in the light together.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um so um to have again who are the who are the men in my case that I'm gonna be confessing my sins to and to have transparency with.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's that's one thing.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: We're as I said, we're we're working as a as a pastoral leadership team on on a kind of what to put in place um for the church leadership to make sure there's there's appropriate access to uh digital and financial and in my case um travel life as well, just so that those things are are accessible and seen by someone and not just a complete mystery.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: I I've said to the church leadership, in as much as I'm still travelling around and speaking in different places.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't ever want the answer to the question, where's where's Sam these days to be?
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think he's just away somewhere.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: I want people to think, oh yeah, but here's his travel schedule, he's in London this week speaking for this group.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I want that level of people knowing what I'm up to and where I am and um how I'm conducting myself.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: So those are two things, and obviously, um, in the light of uh my own negligence with particularly with Lorianne Thompson's um case, to be to do better due diligence as and when accusations come to to make sure they're being taken uh seriously and and heard appropriately.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and all all of which is um in a sense mortifying in in that you know old-fashioned sense, you know.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: You you you've already talked about putting to death the misdeeds of the flesh from Romans chapter eight, and and the official term for that is mortifying, and and it feels mortifying to constrain your liberties and to confess your sins and to admit to error and to do an about face on this, that, or the other.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I'm I'm very struck by the fact that the word for witness in the New Testament is martyr.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um and we need to die well, actually, as we move forwards, don't we?
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_00: Every day, deny yourself, take up your cross.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um discipleship is is ongoing martyrdom.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's daily daily death to self.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: And isn't isn't that the best response to a a scandal that happens when you build up the flesh, build up the flesh, build up the flesh.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um no, no.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_01: The the the the way is in Christ and with Christ and through Christ, pouring ourselves out.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's excruciating for us.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um but it is the way, it is the way of life, and it's the way of blessing as we as we move forward.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_01: So um all all strength to your elbow, um, Sam.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: I've been blessed so much um by your ministry, by your writing, by your speaking, by your friendship, um, and thank you very much for your honesty and transparency in um speaking about these things because you know some of some of this is is mortifying for you.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's of a different order than um the issue that um victims are going through right now, and we'll certainly be addressing that um at at Speak Life as well.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: But it's been so um helpful to get your your wisdom on on the journey that you've been on, and uh I pray that uh many learn from it.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Sam Albre, thanks so much for joining us.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me, Glenn.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm grateful to have this time and grateful to you for you on the stream as well.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that'll do us on the Speak Life podcast for this week.
• 1:01:30
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• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_01: See you next time on the Speak Life Podcast.