Latest / The You Project / #2243 The Friendship Litmus Test - Dr. Lillian Nejad

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#2243 The Friendship Litmus Test - Dr. Lillian Nejad · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, g'day team. It's Harps. It's Dr. Lillian. There's no Tiff.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: There's no Melissa. Melissa hasn't been here forever, has she?
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: We should get her back. You've never done a podcast
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: with Melissa, have you?
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: I have in the early days. Yeah, several times, I think.
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Well, we should, if you want Melissa to make a comeback,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: let us know.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: Would love to.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: She's too busy doing grown-up things and running the business
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: and bossing me around and making big decisions and overtaking
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: the world with AI and telling me what to do
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: every day and what not to do she's so bossy
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: so bossy she's like lovely but bossy and literally her
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: name in my phone is bossy and it's funny oh
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: I love that there's this handwritten messy bossy and so
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: when she rings my phone lights up and it flashes
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: across my screen in Craig Harper's crawl bossy and people
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: are like who's that I go that's Melissa and they
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: all laugh so she seems like Mary Poppins but She is,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: do you know what makes her a little bit that?
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: She's not really bossy, but she's very, she has a
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: way of telling me to do things without telling me to,
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: she's like, oh, did you want to make, did you
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: want to do that thing? Which is her way of saying,
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: you know, that thing, you should do that thing. Or
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: did you want to write that copy for that? Or
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: were you going to talk to such and such about
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: which is her way of saying, you haven't done it.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: I'm reminding you to do it. Can you go and
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: do it? So she has this gift for making her
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: bossiness not look like bossiness.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: But you've worked it out.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I figured it out. I'm onto it. Do you
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: know what is funny? And you don't know what we're
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: talking about. So for those of you, I'm sure nobody
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: thinks we plan this shit anyway, but we don't, we
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: just jump on. But I did spend a couple of
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: minutes thinking about that's how much I invest. Now, there's
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: something I have wanted to talk to you about for
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: a while. And I was waiting for you to come
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: on because I think you are the right person. I
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: wanted this is very broad, but we're going to go
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: a bit more specific and nuanced. I want to talk
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: broadly about human connection and how to create it in
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: different situations, scenarios, contexts, and for different reasons. And that
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: You know, that could be a romantic connection. It could
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: be a friendship. It could be a great relationship you
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: have with your boss or your colleagues or your employees.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: It could be building rapport or connection or trust in
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: a coffee shop with somebody that, you know, it's like
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: the dude that makes my coffee most days. Him and
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: I have a really good connection. In fact, there's a
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: few of them. I should give them all a shout out,
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: but you know who you are. Yeah. but there's a
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: connection and there's trust and there's just a different energy
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: and that, but I want to open the door on
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: building connection consciously and with intention, not for an ulterior motive,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: but there are times when we are in a situation
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: or environment or context where maybe that person and you
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: or me, we're really not, we don't really fit together well. Um,
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: So firstly, and this is all without notice, everyone, so
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: I'm throwing Dr. Lillian under the bus. What are, as
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: we would say in psychology, and there are a million,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: but what are the determinants of connection? Like what are
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: some of the factors and variables that influence how well
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: we can build a quality connection with somebody?
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: Well... Thank you for throwing me under the bus. I
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: love it. This is a great topic.
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: One of the main drivers of connection from my perspective
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: is common ground.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: Sometimes when you meet people, there's almost like an instant.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: Connection.
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: And sometimes that's hard to pin down what that is. Um,
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: but when I talk to people about making connections, um,
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: making new connections, often it really is about like, what,
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: what are the things that you like? What are the
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: things that you value? What are, what are your priorities?
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: And if you go do those things and meet people
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: who have similar likes and goals and priorities and values,
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: you're starting from a place where connection is going to
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: be a lot easier and The other thing that this
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: conversation makes me think about is what we call in
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: psychology therapeutic rapport, which I'm sure you've heard of. And
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: the reason why is because when you are meeting, let's say,
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: a client for the first time, you have to make
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: a connection pretty quickly.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't have to be- Is it organic?
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Is it intuitive? Is it instinctive? Or do you have
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: a method?
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: I don't think I have a specific method. Like I
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: don't have a script that I got that I go
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: in with. I think it's, It might be a little
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: bit of both kind of like organic and also knowing
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: what's helpful in making good connections with people. I mean,
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of research about therapeutic rapport too, which
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: is a nice guide. And when we know from the
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: research that the thing that creates positive change in therapy,
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: the biggest factor besides clients themselves is the rapport you have,
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: the relationship you have with each other. So it is
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: so important.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: And rapport isn't just liking each other. It's trusting each other.
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: And it's also working towards the same goals or having
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: the same priorities. And it's also like mutual respect and,
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: you know, feeling heard. And, you know, so I think
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: it's a combination of things.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: Okay. There are also going to be times when... You
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: don't like the person, but you have to work with
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: them or you don't necessarily trust them. And by the way,
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: over time, this might change. Yes. Like I've, I've actually
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: ended up being really good friends with people that initially
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: I didn't warm to them or I maybe even didn't
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: even like them.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: Right. And I'm like, I'm like, fuck this guy or
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: fuck this woman. And like, you know, just, I'm like, eh,
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: they're not my, oh, you know, but, One, I misread
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: the person. I misread the situation. So out of a therapeutic, sorry,
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: out of a clinical setting like you and me where, okay,
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: people listening to this, they're like, yeah, well, there's this
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: chick at work or there's this dude at work.
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Now, I don't want to be their best friend, but
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: we have to work together. So, therefore, we need to
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: have conversations. We need to solve problems together. We need
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: to sit next to each other or near each other
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: in meetings and and so on yeah what are some
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: of the like um real world tools that we can
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: use or strategies that we can use and we're not
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: talking about how do we be best friends but really
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: how do we just like we've got to have a
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: relationship by virtue of the situation we're in totally how
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: do we make that a better version of what it
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: currently is.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that question.
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: I mean, surprisingly and shockingly, I've also had that experience
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: where I've met someone and it might even be someone
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: that everyone likes, you know, and then I'm like, hmm,
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: you know, or like for whatever reason, I'm finding that
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: person irksome.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: We all have that experience.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: People have that with me.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: I'm sure.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: Like, like some people go, I didn't used to like
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: you because I thought you were this, this, this.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: I've had that as well. Yeah.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: And then I meet you and I'm like, and then,
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: you know, fortunately, you know, they warm to me. Yeah.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I've, and I understand that people would like
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: see a snapshot of you or hear a snapshot of
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: you or read something that you wrote on a whiteboard,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: which is not even 1% of who you are, but
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: they get a total picture in their mind from this
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: less than 1% insight into, yeah. So I've definitely had
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: that where people go, I thought you were a dick
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: and you're not, which is lucky for me.
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I've had a very similar statement. said about me
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: on many occasions as well and look i think that
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: that's look we are humans are judgmental like that's how
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: our brains work we judge things and it i mean
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: there are reasons why um but um and i think
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: that generally it's about survival and judging you know who's
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: a threat and who isn't and that's what what it's
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: supposed to help you with but we've taken it to
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: a A next level where we're actually just judging people
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: based on very little information. And I think that your
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: example and, you know, it's happened to me as well.
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: I think that the tool for that, it's not like
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: a strategy. It's actually like giving it time. Like knowing
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: that you have made a judgment based on little information.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: And being aware that you've done that and then giving
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: it time. because like you said, like I can think
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: of someone very clearly in my mind, like I met
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: a few years ago and I was like.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Who is it? Who is it?
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: Who is it?
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: It will never, ever tell you or anybody.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: I'm not telling you.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Craig.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Under 40? Was it me? Was it me?
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: It's definitely not you.
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: But I, look, I've had it happen with men and women.
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: So I don't think I'm an equal opportunity judgment person.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: Equal opportunity hater.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: Hater, okay, sure.
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: And now I actually like this person. And I think
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: it's time. I think that if you... know someone at
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: a certain depth, you are more likely to appreciate them.
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: And like, even if you don't want to be their
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: friend necessarily, that you will understand them better. And because
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: you have that understanding, you don't have that judgment or
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: that harshness about how you feel about them. because you
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: know more about them and where they're coming from and
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: why they might behave or communicate in a certain way.
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: And so I think that if, if we don't, what
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: I try to do when I make a snap judgment
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: is one notes, like be like, I'm making a judgment and,
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: and then not take that snap judgment as fact and
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: just give it time. Yeah. And yeah, I think for
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: the most part, and not always, sometimes you just still
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: don't like somebody, but you can usually find something that
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: you appreciate about someone, even if you don't end up
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: liking them.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: That you can find some value in that person regardless.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that, you know, seek first to understand, right?
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: So I think also- To understand is not necessarily to
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: agree or align or endorse. Right. It's like there are
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: lots of things that I understand quite well, like addiction,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: but I've never been an addict, but I've worked with
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: lots of people battling addictions and I've worked with people
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: in prison, but I've never been to prison before. for
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: a stay and other things that are just not particularly
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: likeable or positive qualities. But to be able to work
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: with that person, and by the way, some of the
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: people that I've worked with in both of those settings
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: I've actually quite liked, especially, you know, people battling addiction.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: Some of the people are amazing, beautiful humans who have
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: just got this really big challenge. And so when I
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: get to understand their language better and know their story
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: and try to look at what they're going through or
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: even how they show up through their eyes, not my eyes.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: So I'm trying to look at whatever it is through
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: the Sally window, not the Craig window or the Dave window,
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: not the Craig window. Then all of a sudden I've
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: got more compassion And I've got more awareness and all
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: of a sudden there's a connection that there wasn't before
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: because I sought to understand.
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think both you and I are have met
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: a lot of people from a lot of walks of life.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: And known them at a depth potentially that maybe nobody
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: else knows them at. And I think those experiences, I mean,
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: for me, they've.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: Been very eye-opening.
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: But also really helped me understand and have more compassion
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: and empathy outside of the workplace.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: Because I know.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: That if I didn't have those experiences that potentially, if
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: I saw my clients, for instance, you know, out there
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: and I didn't know them and I saw some of
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: the behaviors that I know.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: That they've exhibited, it.
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: Would be really easy to judge for any, you know,
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: it'd be very easy for anybody to judge. But because
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: I have that privilege to actually get to know them
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: at a deeper level, have a better understanding of their experiences, um,
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: and the why for, you know, their, their choices and
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: their decisions and their behaviors and their thoughts and their feelings. Um,
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: you know, I, I, that's why I have such an
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: affection and love for my clients. I mean, my psychologists
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: don't maybe talk about it like that, but I really,
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: really like my clients a lot. I really care about them. And, um,
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: I think that's because I know them so well.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you ever have to self-regulate around that border
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: between professional and personal where you're like, am I stepping
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: into the friend zone here? Is this, am I still
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: their therapist? Am I still being, and I know that
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: you would never be unprofessional, but you know, because I
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: see this in a different context, but I've seen this
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: with personal trainers where obviously a very different job and
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: different context, but not that different. Like you're working with humans,
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: trying to understand them and help them change. So in hindsight,
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: not that different. But I would see it get messy
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: when clients became friends or trainers became friends and intertwined socially.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: And now the dynamic is different. And now it's not
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: a professional relationship. And now, you know, a myriad of complications,
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: like you would think maybe just At a surface level,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: that's great if they're friends. It's not great. There are
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: more problems, trust me. Like people who become real close
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: and let's not even open the door, but see, you
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: know what I'm saying? And that happens. You know, there's just... Yeah,
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: it's just like, and I used to say to all
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: of my clients regularly, and not in a nasty way,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: not your friend, I'm your coach, I'm your trainer, care
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: about you, think you're ace. I'm all about your outcomes
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: and results. I'm all about informing, educating, inspiring you. But no,
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: we're not hanging out. We're not going out to dinner.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: We're not doing that stuff because that isn't our relationship.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: But, you know, I might go to their 50th or
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: their 40th or, you know, I'll make a cameo and
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: be polite and all of that. But I think that
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: in a professional context, and of course there are exceptions
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: to this, but just knowing, you know, what he's talking
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: about connection, like what's appropriate, what's inappropriate connection in this
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: context and what doors do I leave closed and what
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: things can I say that And what things can't I say?
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: And I think even, you know, male to female, like
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: there are things I couldn't say or I would not
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: say to a lady that I would to a man
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: just because that particular approach might be inappropriate, you know,
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: and I'm trying to be aware and sensitive. Whereas with
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: a guy, I might say to a guy, mate, tell
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: me what you ate on the weekend. And he'll tell
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: me what he ate and it was garbage. And I go,
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: are you serious, bro? I'm like, are we fucking around
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: or are we getting in shape? Because you tell me
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: one thing, you do it. And most guys, most of
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: the guys I work with were like, yeah, sorry, I'm
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: shit ass. I need to do better. You're not shit ass,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: but let's do, you know, but I wouldn't approach it
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: that way with a woman. So I guess navigating the,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: Because I know this is the world's longest question and
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: more of a monologue, I accept. But the thing is,
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: it is your job. It is my job. At the
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: same time, though, you are doing a deep dive on
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: personal things.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Yes. That's right. And look, boundaries is a thing.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: Look, in clinical psychology, it's, you know, it's one of
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: the main things that's emphasized, you know, not only is
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: it like, Everyone needs to have healthy boundaries in relationships.
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: But as a psychologist, you also have your professional and
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: regulatory boundaries as well. And that's all to... It's not to...
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: It's mainly for the protection of your clients.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: You want to be ethical. You want to protect them.
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: We have.
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: You know, this idea of being their friend, that's just
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: not a thing for us because dual relationships, as you
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: said before, can cause a lot of problems. And especially
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: because there is a, you know, there's a, it's not
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: an equal relationship in some ways because you know way
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: more about them than they know about you. So that create,
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: that's already problematic if you're going to take that relationship
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: into a different place. Um, and so, yes, uh, as
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: much as I like my clients and if I had
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: met them in not this context, I would have maybe thought, oh,
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: they would be a great person to know. And, um,
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: it's not a place where I, you know, where I
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: go with my clients and my clients are really clear
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: about what I, am and the relationship that we have.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: So this is what we're going to do. Oh, sorry.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: You and I are going to wax. We're going to
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: go back and forward.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: We're going to talk about one connection building idea. Okay.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: Or strategy, which will work with some people in some
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: places and not in others. So these are not universally applicable.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: I'm going to start. So my first one that I
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: was very bad at and still, according to some podcast listeners,
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: still not excellent at is active listening. Yeah. Where, hey, Craig,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: you're a chatty Cathy, so just talk less, tune in more.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: And so when I'm sitting one-on-one, because I've just started
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: a whole new bunch of coaching clients, which is your
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: equivalent of patients, but all clients. And because I'm a
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: chatty Cathy, I need to go into each one of
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: those sessions with a level of awareness and energy that
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: is appropriate for that. And there are often times where
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: I want to interrupt because I have something that I think,
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: but I just, I consciously don't. And I'll wait and
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: wait and wait. So for me becoming, and I'm, by
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: the way, everyone, I'm still a six out of 10,
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: but I was a fucking one, right? Because I get
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: excited about what I want to tell them, which is
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: not always effective communication. And definitely not what we're talking about,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: human connection. It's not the pinnacle of that. It's like
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: human interruption. But I'm going to start with active listening.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: And my advice to our listeners who are not great
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: at that is like do your best. Depends on what's
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: going on. But if one of your goals in this
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: context is to build rapport, communication, trust, respect, connection, Try
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: and work on about the 20-80 rule where you're talking 20%
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: of the time. And that's a very rough kind of,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: but for me that seems to, because people feel seen
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: and valued and appreciated and heard. That's number one. Yeah.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: And yeah.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: And kind of linked to that is like just asking
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: questions and being curious about what's going on for them. Yeah.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Yes. So questions and curiosity. What else is on? Do
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: you have a, I've got a couple, but it's like
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: a strategy that we can use, a particular strategy.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: So mine is, again, I'm going to relate this to
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: me as you did to you. And I think maybe,
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: you know, we talked about how other people have judged
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: us harshly sometimes.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: And I think that sometimes that.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: Has to do with There's a couple of things for me,
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: I think, but one was my expression, my facial expression. Yes,
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: because my neutral expression isn't friendly. I don't think it's
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: not warm. It's just a neutral face. But it has
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: sometimes been perceived as disinterest or aloofness or something else
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: or intimidating in some way. So what I so I'm
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: aware of that. So when I'm going into new situations
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: with people who don't know me, I want to present
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: myself as warmly as possible. So, you know, smile, even
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: if it doesn't have to be a massive, broad, fake smile,
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: but like just a little upturn of the mouth. Just
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: even that slight awareness so that people, so I'm approachable.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Because.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's really hard to meet new people
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: and you don't want to make it harder for people to, to,
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: to walk up to you and want and approach you
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: and talk to you. Um, and also you don't, you know,
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: you want, you want other people if you're walking towards
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: them to feel like, Oh yeah, you know, this person's
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: walking up to me and they're not scary at all. Um,
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: so yeah, I think your nonverbal, um, communication and cues,
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: body language, facial expression, tone of voice, um, the way
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: you're standing, what you're doing.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: Um, all of that kind of ties into that. Um,
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: so it's, yeah, it's not just whether you're smiling or not,
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: but it's like, are you holding your phone and looking at.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: It a lot? Or, you know, do you, are your
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: arms crossed?
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: Do you look bored or, you know, um, If you
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: walk in and you got a smile and you look interested,
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: you're going to be a lot more approachable and people
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: are going to want to talk to you.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: It's kind of that social and situational awareness and a
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: little bit of Craig Harper's research, like what's it like
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: being around me for them? Like what is the me
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: experience like for that person in this moment? And pursuant
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: to that thought, Your Honour, about, Oh, what is it now?
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: About an hour, maybe an hour and a quarter ago.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: This is real life. I was sitting in this chair,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: heard a big bang, uh, live on a main street,
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: walked out. A lady just tried to do a U-turn
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: in a street where there are no U-turns allowed. And
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: so she would have been older, like my age or older,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: but seemed older, I think. Um, And did a U-turn
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: and a young lady, probably, I don't know, 20-year-old, smashed
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: into her. Airbags deployed, side of the car caved in.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: She was all right but shaken. And so I kind
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: of ran out and, well, I didn't kind of. I
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: ran out. And then she looked at me and I'm like,
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: she was scared. Yeah. So here's this guy in a
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: black T-shirt with muscles and a shaved head and army
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: shorts and And so I just had this awareness straight away.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: And I just went, all I said was, I go,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: are you okay? Are you okay? And she's like, yeah,
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: I think so. I go, do you think anything's injured?
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: And I just changed my energy to kind of be what,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: hopefully what she needed in that moment. She was quite
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: freaked out and, Like obviously she was freaked out by
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: the situation, but then I think I just walk up
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: and for whatever reason I'm just intimidating. So then I'm
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: not there to, I'm actually there to help and be
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: kind and to be of service. But like five minutes
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: later she was holding my hand and thanking me, you know,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: and then moved her car for her and did all
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: of these things. But like being able to read the situation. Yeah.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: and having enough in the moment awareness, but also having
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: that curiosity and that willingness to go, what is this
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: like now for him or her? Like sitting across from
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: me in this meeting or in this conversation or negotiation
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: or conflict resolution or chat at the water cooler, if
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: water coolers exist, what is this like for him or her?
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: And to be able to do that in the moment,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: really requires conscious effort and awareness.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. I agree with that.
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: And I think it also requires some humility on your
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: part as well in terms of how you're perceived and
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: really understanding you without judgment as well.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: You know? Sometimes I wish I didn't look like I look,
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: and it's like I don't even feel like I look scary.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: It's not like I'm 6'5 and 130 kilos. Yeah. But
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: I must have this intimidating vibe. Not to people that
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: know me, but yeah. Yeah. Like I think, do you know,
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: it's funny when you were saying you kind of have
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: this sometimes, not stern, but this, you have a look. Yeah.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: And it's not, it's somewhere between I'm happy and I'm
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: pissed off.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. Right?
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But you probably neither. You're probably just present and thinking.
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: And I have, I think, a similar look. And people
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: are like, oh, you're intimidating. And I go, but I
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: haven't opened my mouth. Exactly. I haven't spoken.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: It's just your face.
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: Actually, I don't know if I've spoken about this before,
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: but there was research done on this.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, probably lots of studies, but the one that I'm.
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: Thinking of was they took pictures of people, like let's
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: say a whole cross-section of people, and they told them
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: to just have a neutral face.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Right.
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: So I took pictures of people, let's say a hundred
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: people with a neutral face. And then they showed those
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: pictures to.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: People, other people.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: And they said, is this person, you know, like angry
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: or neutral or happy? And I think it was 70%
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: of the neutral faces were regarded.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: In a negative way.
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: Right. So they thought that those people were not happy
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: or angry or upset or something. So the majority of
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: us potentially are walking around with a neutral face and
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: we don't realize it's not being perceived as neutral.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: And do you think that's because our brains wired to
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: detect threats?
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: I mean, in terms of like why we might be
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: perceived in a certain way.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, potentially.
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: But also maybe, yeah, maybe our brains require something more
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: from our face than neutral to, yeah, to feel, yeah,
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: no threat. So like if, so the smiling piece, you know,
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: when you're in a social context- An open stance, a
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: warm hello.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: Is really important.
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: And even if you don't, even if you just want
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: to present neutral and you just like, don't be stubborn
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: about it. Because, yeah, the point is to make connections.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: I know what you're saying and I agree with you.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: but I'm just going to play the devil's advocate. So
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: I'm walking down the street. There's a young lady walking
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: towards me. She's 30. I'm 60. I smile at her
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: and she goes to herself, what a creepy old dude.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean? What's she smiling at me?
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: And by the way, why the fuck are you even
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: looking at me and definitely don't smile? I'm not interested
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: in you. I'm like, oh, my God. Oh, my God.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: It's why I walk around in headphones and look primarily
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: at my feet. If I can't look at them, if
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: I don't acknowledge them, then they probably, you know, I,
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: of course I smile when I think it's appropriate, but
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: there are times when I, I do not, I intentionally
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: don't look at somebody because I think it doesn't matter
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: what's going on on my face. If I look at them,
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: that's going to be a problem or they're going to
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: be bothered or they might be bothered. So I just don't,
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: I'm not trying to be rude or antisocial. I just
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: know that You know, there is no universal reality. Their
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: reality is their reality. And you go, well, here's a
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: guy that could be a threat or looks this or
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: looks that. And so rather than have to navigate that,
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: I just try to avoid it.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, context matters. It makes sense.
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: Like if that has been your experience where you worry
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: that the other person actually is concerned about you smiling
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: at them yes that it makes sense to adjust your
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: behavior so that you don't.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: Concern people yes yes.
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: But that's not a social context in the sense of
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: you're wanting to meet that person or like you're in.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: A room and your whole.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: Reason for being there is to meet people and and
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: talk to people it's really different just walking walking past
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: someone um So yeah, you do have to kind of
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: adjust depending on, well, who you are and how you're
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: perceived and what social context you're in. And like you said,
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: sometimes gender makes a difference as well. And there's a
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: lot of nuance, I guess, in how we present ourselves
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: in different situations. And that can be hard to navigate.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: So somebody listening to this might be closer towards the
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: introvert end of the spectrum and listening to us going, Yeah,
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: but why bother? Like why even bother with all of this?
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: What would your response to them be?
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: Social connection is one of the most fundamental, most important
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: things in life in terms of happiness, in terms of health,
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: in terms of longevity.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: So it's not a.
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: It's not an optional thing. We actually, as human, really,
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: most of us, I'm not going to say.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: 100%, but most of us.
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: Really need it, need it for our health, happiness, and for.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: A long life, a long, healthy life. So it's super important.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: So let me ask you another question. Not all connection
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: is healthy. There's healthy connection. There's unhealthy connection. Give us
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: some kind of, some features of each, like if it's
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: an unhealthy connection, what might be happening versus, or maybe
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: it's just the opposite for the different side of the ledger,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: but Healthy versus unhealthy. How do we know if it's
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: an unhealthy connection? Let's start there.
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: There are so many aspects to relationships and it's quite
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: a complex question, but.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, okay, let's start.
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: Well, let's start with healthy, actually. I mean, we know
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: like what healthy looks like. Healthy is you enjoy being
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: with someone.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: They make you feel good. You make them feel good.
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: There's trust. There is a sense of safety and security.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: There's enjoyment, fun.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: There is lightness and depth at the same time.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: Roger that. Yep.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: There is.
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: This in very healthy relationships and the ones that I
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: strive to have. Um, you're happy for each other's successes.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: You know, you might admire someone, but it's not coming
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: from a place of envy or not wanting them to
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: have things, you know, that you don't have.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: It's, it's about.
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: Wanting the best for the people that you're friends with
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: and celebrating their successes. Um, so unhealthy, unhealthy, unhealthy would be,
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: there's no trust.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: You don't know if what you say is heard or
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: respected or private.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: Someone, an unhealthy relationship is no accountability, no ability to
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: repair breaches or ruptures in the relationship.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: And I guess any form of coercion, control, manipulation, all that.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: Yes. All of those.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: Yes. All the obvious stuff. All the obvious. Yeah. I
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: have a, this is called the Craig Harper litmus test,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: our friendship litmus test. So my friendship litmus test is this.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: It's one question. Is my life better with this person
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: in it or out of it? That's it.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: And if I go, I feel like my life is
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: better with this person in it, then to me, then
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: they tick the friendship box.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: But what is it though, Craig?
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: Okay. I'll come back to that.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: But then the other side of that is when a
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: friendship consistently feels like a job or a project.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: You know, where I'm like, this is not a friendship.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: I only hear from them when they fucking want something,
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: when they're worth falling apart, when, and I'm happy to
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: help and serve. But when that's all it is. Yeah.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: Like I never get a phone call going, G'day mate,
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: just thought I'd check in. How are you? Like I
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: never get one of those. And if there's a coffee request,
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: there's always an agenda. It's not really about coffee. It's
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: about I want a $ 4 coaching session, which even then
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: I'm happy to do that too, but it's like not forever.
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: It's not a friend.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: No, it's, it's, and it also, it's not necessarily horrible
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: or toxic, but I'm like, yeah, I don't, I know
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: lots of people, but I probably have 10 friends.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: Which I would go, oh, I would be real sad
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: if they weren't in my life.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: You know, and that, Other people, eh, not that I
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: don't care, but it's like if I see them or
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: don't see them, it's okay. If I see them, it's fine.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: If I don't, it's also fine.
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: How many close friends do you have?
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: Actually.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: You know, you could ring them at 3am and say,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: I need you, and they're there 10 minutes later. How
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: many of those do you have?
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: I think I have more than most.
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: Honestly.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I.
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: And I also have them, I guess I have different
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: groups of them, you know, like I've got my one,
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: I've got my ones here that I've developed over the
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: last 25, 30 years. I, I, I like meeting new people.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: And so I make friends fairly easily, but it takes
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: me a long time to really trust somebody. And because
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: of that takes long. Really to become like a very
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: good friend. But once, you know, you are, you're you're
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: like lifelong i have friends with somebody i met when
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: i was five still um so i have my u.s
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: best friends as well yeah and then i have some
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: best friends within my family um.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: You know what do you think of.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: The idea of I think we all think, like everybody
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: I know nearly says, I'm a really good judge of character.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: Like everybody thinks they have a special gift when it
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: comes to, which I don't think many people do. I
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: think a lot of us fuck it up. Maybe some
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: people do. But do you know, do you have an
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: opinion on or maybe even research on first impressions? We
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: talk a lot in psychology. Even in my research, we
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: did some stuff around, first impressions versus you know uh
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: close acquaintances right yeah how how reliable if at all
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: do you think first impressions are and to what extent
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: should we value or not value them.
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: I mean i okay i don't have the any research
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: that i can draw upon however um Going back to
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: the beginning of our conversation, I don't think that there
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: is much value in first impressions.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: Because what we said was you need time to really
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: get to know somebody, right? And even from personal experience.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: If people only went on their first impressions of me
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: and like you were saying of you, then they wouldn't
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: have the right picture and they would never want to
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: get to know me.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: And I would have five listeners.
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: So mom and auntie Marge and uncle John and yeah.
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: So I, yeah.
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: So I really like, and that's why if I do
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: have a bad first impression, I'm like, I'll park that.
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: I'm going to park it. I'm not loving this situation
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: or this person right now. But I also know that
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: I just met them and this is just a first impression.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: And I'm going to give that situation some time.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: Have you ever done a big 180? on a first
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: impression versus like initially you're like not at all. And
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: then eventually you became close with that person.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: I'm trying, I mean, I'm sure I have, I'm trying,
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: I'm trying to like pinpoint like a per, I mean,
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: the one that I was talking to you before, not,
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: I'm not at the stage where I want to be
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: close friends, but I'm definitely friends. Right. And that was
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: somebody that I didn't want to be around at all.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: How much of it do you think this connection thing,
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: is beyond psychological and emotional assessment and is almost some
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: kind of subconscious biochemical thing where it's like, I don't
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: know what it is or energetic thing. You know, we
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: would call gut instinct or intuition or whatever where you're like, eh,
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: and then down the track, it might be coincidence, but
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: you find out, no, that was actually a good sign.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: That was a good indicator.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I think that can work both ways.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: Yes, we can have these like instant, almost like cosmic
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: like connections with people.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: But sometimes that.
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: Like if you have had troublesome relationships and patterns in
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: your background, that instant connection can be a repeat of
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: a negative pattern potentially, rather than something that's healthy.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: For you.
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: But sometimes you instantly connect with someone and it's because
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: yeah you just there's whatever it is and you can't
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: necessarily pinpoint it but you're like oh you're like a
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: lot like me we we like a lot of the
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: same things we connect on so many different levels our
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: personalities mesh together really well and yes that's really lovely
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: when that happens This.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: Is a weird idea and a very little practiced behavior.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: But what do you think of the idea of asking
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: people for feedback on you?
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: Like I, you know, where you go, I don't want
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: you to make me feel good or bad. Like whatever,
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: whatever is, is I want, you know, it's that whole,
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: you know, meta perception, how do I want to know
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: actually how I come across to you, good or bad,
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: whatever that is, you know, that's a brave thing to do.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: That's a scary thing to do. And then it's also a,
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: it's almost like a high risk friendship maneuver, right?
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: It is, yeah.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: Is it like this could fuck everything up? Yeah. Or
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: this could build a level of depth and connection that
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: I didn't even expect.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. You're so right.
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: I think feedback is such an interesting thing. I literally
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: just was on a panel this week or last week
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: about feedback. It's tricky, like you said, because you need
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: to have a really trusting relationship. And both of you
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: need to feel really safe, like receiving it and delivering
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: the feedback.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: I have had a situation in my life. with someone
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: I was extremely close to who asked, who said one
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: day out of the blue, I am working on myself
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: and with a therapist. And they asked me to ask
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: my closest people for feedback about me. And there were
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: three questions. And the timing of it was, I was
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: not happy. I was extremely close with this person, but
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: I was not happy with this person at this point
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: in time.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: Oh, wow.
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: Because they had completely like not been unreliable. No contact
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: for months. And then all of a sudden I get
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: this out of the blue thing asking for something.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Did you say, funny you mention it, sit down.
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: Well, it was meant to be written, right?
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: So it's three questions, just write something brief, send it
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: back to me. And I wanted to be really honest.
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: And I felt because our relationship was so strong and
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: it's been such a long relationship that I could be honest.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: But it wasn't taken well. Right.
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: And she didn't talk to me for like six months.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: That's hilarious.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, you've asked me for feedback and then
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: I've given it to you. And now like, and I just.
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: Was actually kind of flabbergasted because you couldn't have had
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: a more safe and secure relationship.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: Like it was like the strongest of relationships.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: And. What's her name?
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: She'll know who she is if she listens to this.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: How are you listening to this do better do better try.
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: Harder and i'm like how are you how are you
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: like working on yourself and then you know you're you
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: get the feedback and then you don't like it and
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: you've and you're using like one of the most toxic
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: things you can do to somebody is shut them out
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: completely yes so um yeah it took a toll it
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: really did and we're on our way back and this
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: is years ago you know and it's still not fully
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: repaired from and From my end, it's not a trust.
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: I don't trust it as much. And to break my
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: trust and to build it back, it's going to take
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: a long time.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's interesting.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: That's just a thing for me personally, yeah.
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think asking, sorry to interrupt. I think that
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: asking that question, you have to really, really be mentally
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: and emotionally authentic and ready. Like if what you're really
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: asking for is praise or, you know, positive endorsement or something, yeah,
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: it's like I've written a few times, people want feedback
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: until it's feedback they don't want. So people don't really
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: want feedback. They want accolades or they want endorsement or
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: they want support. And I want that too. We all
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: want that. But there's got to be a time where,
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: you know, somebody who loves you says to you, you know,
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: there's this thing that you do sometimes that, you know, whatever,
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: fill in the blank. And maybe it's uncomfortable. Maybe it's
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: not what you want to hear. Maybe you feel all
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: the things, but the bigger question is, or the bigger
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: issue is, is it true though? Like, is it true? Like,
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: The funny, this whole thing, and I know you live
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: more in the human behavior psychology space more strictly, but
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: buzzing around the self-help, personal development, I want to be better.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: I want to be a better human, think better, do better,
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: be better, create better outcomes, help humans. It's like, yeah,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: but you also need to not just pay attention to
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: the fluffy, feel good, back slappy, you're amazing, you can
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: do anything. That messaging for me is kind of problematic,
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: if not deceptive or misleading and sometimes destructive because it's
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: basically telling everyone you're amazing and you can do anything.
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: The truth is we're not all amazing. We're not. Yeah.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: We're not all amazing and we can't all do anything.
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: And we're not all brilliant and we're not all gifted
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: and we're not all special. That doesn't mean like I've
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: never thought I'm any of that. I don't think I'm
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: special or amazing or gifted or highly intelligent. But What
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: I can do is with what I've got to work with,
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: I can try real hard. I can be brave. I
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: can be resilient. I can ask questions. I can do
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: the work. I can try harder than I used to.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: I can learn and unlearn, right? The addiction that people
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: have for positive feedback and praise is a self-limiting behavior
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: in itself because... Yeah.
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: Obviously, I make mistakes. Obviously, I get things wrong. Obviously,
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: I have hurt people or offended people. Obviously. Obviously, I've
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: produced results I didn't intend to produce. Obviously. Now, why
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: don't I open the self-awareness door and be brave? Not
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: the self-loathing door, that's bullshit, but the self-awareness door and go,
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: all right, what am I actually doing? Because what I
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: think I'm doing is this, but That doesn't seem to
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: be what the data is telling me.
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think in the case that I was
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: talking about, I think she was prepared for feedback that
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: wasn't fluffy and positive because that's the way the questions
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: were framed, were not framed in that way. But I
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: think she just didn't agree with what I said and
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: so she felt hurt by it. And instead of just
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: having a conversation about it, which is what I would
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: have expected, she didn't want to do that. And we've,
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: you know, we obviously had a conversation about how that
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: went down and why it went down.
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: But just, I mean, I.
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: Think that feedback is a form of respect. You know,
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: you need to respect someone enough to tell them the truth,
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: even though it's uncomfortable.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: What if they don't want it though? Like there's got
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: to be a timing and a context, right? Yes, 100%.
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: You can't give people feedback if they haven't asked for it. Well, generally.
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Generally speaking.
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: So like within a work, like, you know, in businesses
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: and stuff, like feedback is just part of how businesses run.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: Of course.
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: But, yeah, in social context, of course, you're not just
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: going to be like, oh, I have something to say
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: about you today.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: Let me give you some feedback about who you are
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: and what you do. Do you know– Yeah.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: My biggest teacher of this was my dad, like, because
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: dad was never wrong.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: And, yeah, he actually had a sticker on the fridge
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: at home that said, once I thought I was wrong,
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: but I was mistaken. That was literally on the fridge.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: And I remember, and I didn't have many disagreements with
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: him in my life because it just wasn't worth it, right?
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: So you knew when to talk and not talk. But
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: one day I just told him truly what I thought,
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: didn't raise my voice, didn't yell. From my perspective, everything
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: I said was true and supported by evidence. He did
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: not talk to me for six months.
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: And I'm his son. Yeah. Didn't talk to me. I'm like, okay, okay.
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: So I'd ring the house. He would never answer the phone.
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: Mum would always answer the phone and, you know, couldn't.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: couldn't really visit. And I'm like, God.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That would have been so hard.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And you're like, Oh, Oh, so yeah, I'm that's,
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: so there's gotta be a lot of discernment and wisdom
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: and timing and awareness.
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: And sometimes you don't know, like you're wanting, like in
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: that situation and, and many other people's situations, they're wanting
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: to have more depth and honesty in that, in your relationship.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: And, So that's what you were doing.
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: You're like, I want to create something better with you.
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: And you're hoping for that.
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: As the outcome.
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: And then you find out, well, that's not going to
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: be the outcome with this person. So now there's an
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: acceptance piece of like, okay, my relationship is actually going
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: to be like this with this person. And it's not
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: going to get to where I want it to be,
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: but it's just going to be at this level and
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: I'll accept it at this level.
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: And that can be a hard thing, but we don't
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: have control over everything. We have control over what we
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: do and how we feel, but we don't know what
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: the response is going to be and the outcome is
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: going to be. It's not under our full.
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: Control.
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: So that can be hard to accept, but it's certainly
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: necessary sometimes. And I totally agree. How you say something...
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: where you say something, you know, very important.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: What you say. What you say.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: What you say. It's very important.
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, this whole thing is a really interesting and
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: obviously we're skimming the surface and we've just opened the
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: door a tiny bit. But you think about in context
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: of just the human experience broadly, you know, just being
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: a human means, you know, there's going to be interaction,
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: there's going to be conversations, there's going to be, and
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: challenges and negotiations and navigations of social situations. And I
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: think because I have, because I get feedback, because I
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: have a very minor but moderate profile, you know, where
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: people tell you what they think, whether or not you
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: want it, it's good sometimes to go, especially even when
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: people are really nasty, which I get a bit of,
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: But sometimes if I can put my preciousness on hold,
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: I know why they're writing it. Or I can, I
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: might not agree with it, but I could understand maybe
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: through the lens of another person or I go, I
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: disagree with you. I don't think I am that, but
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: I understand why you think that. Like I get criticised
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: more than you would think. Not criticised. Yeah, criticised for
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: being a 60-ish-year-old single male, like there must be something
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: wrong with you.
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: Like that's it. There must be something, you know, like
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: because I'm not married, because I don't have children, like
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: that just adds up for some people as a problem
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: and a flaw and a fault. So there's no reflection
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: on just how I behave or what I put out
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: into the world or how I treat people. It's just
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: like they go, okay, 60-year-old white dude, or maybe it
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter what colour, I guess, but 60-year-old dude doesn't drink,
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: doesn't smoke. He has this kind of squeaky whatever. He's
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: not in a, you know, there must be, you know,
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: there's something fucking wrong with him. And I'm like, wow. And,
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: you know, when you consciously try to be, and I
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: don't nail it, but like you, I consciously and genuinely
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: try to put good stuff out into the world. Like
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: that's my reason. That's what I, you know, I don't
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: always nail it. I get it wrong. But, yeah, and
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: then you're like, well, people are going to see what
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: they're going to see. And also I think it's actually
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: not a bad self-preservation mechanism if you kind of expect that,
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: you know. What's that term? Schadenfreude. Have you and I
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: spoken about that? Have you ever heard of that term?
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: I have, yeah.
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like where people actually want you to fail
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: and they take delight in your pain. And it's like, oh,
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: and I've had people over the years say, not recently,
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: but early days where I started to do quite well
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: in business and in a range of ways. And there
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: was a few people who I was close to and
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: it really fucking bothered them that I started to succeed.
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh, this isn't, this isn't at all
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: what I thought it was, you know? So that where
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: you go, okay, because I was Like I'm not like that.
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: I've had friends who are way more successful, still do,
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: than me, way more. Yeah. And every time they go, great,
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: I'm so fucking happy for them.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, me too. And there's no.
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: Jealousy or resentment. I'm just like, fuck, how clever is
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: she or he? Yeah. How great are they doing? Because
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know, I don't have that comparison gene. Yeah.
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: In fact, if anything, I want to spend time with
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: people who are better.
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: I want to hang out with people who are doing
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: better than me because I want a bit of that
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: shit to rub off and I can learn from them. Yeah.
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: I agree with you wholeheartedly about that. And it is
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: a shame when you come across situations or people that
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: don't think that way or behave that way.
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: Uh and then.
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: Sometimes and then i you know that i'm like okay
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: that's a that's a judgment there's probably something behind that
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: what's gone on in their life for them to to
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: think in that sort of way and like you said
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: it's the comparisons thing it's a massive issue at the
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: moment um or has been over the last 10 years
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: with the proliferation of social media and everyone getting to
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: see what everyone else.
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: Is up to supposedly.
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: And then feeling worthless.
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: And less than, and, and then that leading to feeling
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: resentful or, you know, depressed or, you know, all of those.
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: Do you want me to tell you a funny story
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: that you're going to laugh at? Cause it's at my expense.
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: Okay, let's go.
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: So recently I was, I was at the cafe and,
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: And there was this couple next to me. I actually
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: think they might be a couple, but they're two people
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: and they're both working on their computers, literally two or
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: three feet away from me. And, you know, we're sitting
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: side by side for an hour, like I could just
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: reach over and poke either one of them on the shoulder, right? And...
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: I went to, I don't know, pay or have a
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: wee or get a drink or something. And I came
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: back and I sat down and one of them was
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: looking at me and I said, how are you doing?
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: And good. And they were deep in work. And I
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: started to, we started at a surface level chat and I,
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: I didn't know what they did, but they work in
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: corporatey stuffy. They have their own business. They, I don't know,
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: they have services or products or something. And I think
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: they said, what are you doing? I said, oh, bits
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: and pieces. But, you know, like I work a bit
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: in corporate as well and I do. And I started
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: to bang on about human behaviour and fucking psychology and
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: all of this shit, right? And I wasn't trying to–
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: it was relevant and it was in context, but what
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: I didn't do was after giving them a 10-minute monologue
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: on how human beings work, I didn't, I didn't find
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: out that the guy is a psychiatrist and his friend
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: or partner is a clinical psychologist. And I just wished
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: that the floor would have swallowed me up. And they
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: were both super polite and present. Yeah. And probably way smarter,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: both of them than me and just put up with
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: my self-indulgent bullshit. And, I was so mad at myself.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: I was so embarrassed. I was so like, I literally
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: just did everything I tell people not to do. And I,
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: you know, and you go, but at least in the
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: moment I realized what I did and I'm like, and
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: my intentions weren't bad. And everything I said I think
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: was in the ballpark, but it just was.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to say. It was probably all
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: aligned still.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: It was inappropriate for who I was talking to. I
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: just did not know who I was talking to. So
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: I skulked out of there about 12 seconds later with
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: my tail between my legs, mumbling to myself what a
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: fucking idiot I am. Another lesson. Another lesson.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: Have to ask. Have to ask at the beginning. What
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: are you doing?
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: I know. Such a dumbass.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, but I've had that happen to me the
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: other way, right?
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: Someone's talking to me and telling me about psychology and everything.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: It actually happened fairly recently. And I mean, because they
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: haven't really asked her, they don't know.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: Like, I'm okay. Like, nothing that they said was.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: I mean, you should, what I'm saying is you don't
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: have to feel that embarrassed because it, from the other side, like,
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: you know, you would have sounded, you would have said
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: things that they completely agreed with and were on board
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 3: with knowing you and they would have just felt more
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 3: aligned with you and.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: You're not helping. You're not helping at all.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: You're not helping at all.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: Am I not helping with our connection, Craig?
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: I know what you're trying to do, and I love
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: the intention.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 3: But you still feel bad about it.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm still hating myself. I don't know why I
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: brought it up.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: Forgive yourself.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: I have loved our conversation. Tell people how they can
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: connect with you, please.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: Well, come to DrLillianNajad.com. And I've got a new mental
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 3: health and wellbeing portal there. So if you're interested in
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: learning more or accessing resources on stress or anxiety or sleep,
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 3: then there's lots of really good information there for you.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: So have a look.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: You have the most, you have the best voice. And
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: I think I have one of the worst. Like I
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: do not like the sound of my voice. I wish
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: I had a boy version of your voice.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: I like your voice, actually.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: Your voice is really?
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I do.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: I like it.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: It's distinctive and it's clear. It's kind of whiny.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, I wouldn't put you on a relaxation exercise necessarily,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: but I think it's a really good voice. It's great
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: for podcasting, which is what you do.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: Maybe for inspiring the fuck out of people.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: I'm just looking at my phone. My mum has rung
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: me three times.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: Oh, you better call back.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: Let's hope the old doll hasn't fallen over again.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: I hope she's okay.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Dr. Lillian, thank you so much. See you next time.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: You're the best.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: You're the best.