Latest / 987 The Shock Circuit / INTERVIEW: ADJ A/PROF JONATHAN ONG, SENIOR CONSULTANT NEUROLOGIST AT NUHS

Transcript

INTERVIEW: ADJ A/PROF JONATHAN ONG, SENIOR CONSULTANT NEUROLOGIST AT NUHS · 987 The Shock Circuit

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: I actually wonder if our guest joining us in a
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: few seconds is following the World Cup. We have to
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: ask him in just a while. That and also maybe
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: he might be seeing an increase of patients complaining about
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: because poor sleep cycle. Oh yes, or headache or migraines.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: You're talking about yourself. I know it. Yeah, I get
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: a free consult today, is it? But anyway, joining us
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: in the studio in this interview segment very proudly brought
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: to you by Pfizer, we have senior consultant neurologist at
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: the National University Health System at.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: associate professor. Say hello to Jonathan Ong. Hello, sir, in
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: the studio. Good to see you,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: man.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: here. Morning invitation.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Of course. Thank you for being here. You, you look
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: all geared up to go to work right after this
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: already.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Certainly, yeah, it's a busy day, Monday.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you got to get down to it immediately.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: That's where most of the MCs are produced, is it Mondays?
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: As you, as you can see, our personality difference is
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: there la, very different. OK, so let's just go straight
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: down to it because early on we were already saying what.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: What's the difference between a headache and a migraine because
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: we sometimes throw these words around too casually, right? Can
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: you just maybe fill us in first to kick things off?
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: I think that's very important. So basically, um, headache is
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: a symptom, right, uh, what the patient feels, right? Whereas
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: a migraine is a diagnosis, right? Uh, basically it's a clinician's, um, job, right,
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: to figure out why does that headache, uh, happen and
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: what is the
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: The reason behind it. So if I may just draw
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: an analogy, you know, many of our listeners today, right,
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: they will be driving in the car. So suddenly, you know, you,
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: you see uh uh engine light pop up right in
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: front of your dashboard.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: So you'll be wondering what's wrong with my car? Why
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: is that engine light popping up? So it's the mechanic, i.e.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: the doctor, right, in this case, uh, having to open
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: up the hood to find out exactly what's happening and,
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: and to diagnose the, the issue, right? The, the, the
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: light pops up because your spark plug, for example, is malfunctioning. Yeah,
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: so fascinating question.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: Symptoms versus um a diagnosis.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: So
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: in terms of Singapore, I'm very sure we all love
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: our numbers here. Well, what are the steps of people
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: having these kind of conditions, headaches, and then it becomes
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: a migraine, right? So
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: if you look at migraine, uh, per se as a diagnosis, uh,
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: about 1 in 10, um, uh, you know, in Singapore,
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: the population will have this, uh, diagnosis, um, and, uh,
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: at any point in time,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Uh, we are looking at about um 8 to 10%,
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: you know, um, in terms of the general population having
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: this condition.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: They were so worried about it. They were like, what's
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: going on? Do we need to bring her to a
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: specialist or GP was like, hm, you know, nothing much
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: you can do. Maybe you want to see a specialist. So,
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: of course, me being the only child, uh, they're like overprotective, overworried,
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: and they were concerned that it was a neurological issue
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: or like something. So for parents tuning in right now,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: perhaps with like young children who might complain of these symptoms,
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: when is it important to say, OK, we need to
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: go see a specialist now?
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: I think Sonia, that's a, a great question. Um, we do, um,
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: from time to time see, uh, children with headaches, but
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: they don't occur so, uh, frequently as compared to the
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: adults and, and generally I would say that, you know, if, uh,
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: the child is, uh, having persistent, frequent, daily even, uh,
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: headaches or, um, associated with, uh, you know, um, affecting
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: their schoolwork, for example, or symptoms like nausea, vomiting.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: Uh, becomes really unbearable, then I think it's time to
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: seek medical attention.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: So in earlier I brought this up on TikTok Live
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: and on air as well. We're all in our high
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: rocks eras. We're all doing marathons. We're all doing this,
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: and for me, I know after a full marathon there'll
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: always be that dehydration headache that I'll have. And there
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: was even once where I was having a long drive
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: in New Zealand where I was just attacked by now
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: I'm just wondering, do I call it a migraine.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I had to actually stop my car, spend the
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: night in a motel, and take two Panadols and just
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: put like a pillow on my head. Was this a
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: migraine or was this a headache because I did feel
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: like vomiting as well, nausea. And what are some of
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: the warning signs that a headache might now become a
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: migraine for me,
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: right? So, um, coming back to what we said earlier, right, uh,
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: migraine headache is just one part of the story. Um,
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: there are many other symptoms, right, uh, that.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: That are associated with migraines. So it's the light and
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: sound sensitivity, it's the nausea, it's the uh the vomiting,
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: and also that movement sensitivity. Now, I think joking, you know,
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: what you've mentioned is something uh quite uh pertinent in
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: terms of triggers for a migraine attack in somebody who
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: is uh predisposed to migraine. So, um, you know, if
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: you don't drink enough water,
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: Right, or you're stressed, right? Let's say you were driving, right?
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: Long hours, sunlight, uh, paying close attention to the, the
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: road conditions, and then you don't eat well, you don't
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: drink well. If you're a migrainer, you can certainly trigger
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: an attack. So even for myself, I'm a gym goer, right? Uh,
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: my friends, they go to high rocks, right? And some
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: of them are migrainers, they, they live with migraine. Now,
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: if you don't pay attention, you don't have sufficient hydration
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: before you commence your exercise.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: Right, or you don't take a small fruit, you might
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: drop the sugar levels in the blood and then that
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: may trigger, uh, a migraine, yeah,
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: something as simple as Panadol to fix it or, you know, paracetamol.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: The good news is, um, if you take paracetamol or
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: any form of painkiller early, right, you would tend to stem, uh,
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: the progression of those symptoms that I talked about. It's
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: the disability that actually counts, so it's just not the headache,
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: you know, sometimes people.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: You know, off work, it's, it's crippling, right? So the
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: earlier that you take something, right, it, it, uh, sort
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: of limits the symptoms and then therefore you can get
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: on with life.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: Can I, can I go off script for a little
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: bit because I feel like a free consult right now. No, no, no, no,
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: this was inspired by, uh, I mean, all my years
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: I've known, even most recently at her wedding, a hangover headache.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: This is a very, very, very common trigger.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so some, some people, um, you know, they, it's fascinating.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: In fact, we can go on and on about alcohol, uh, and, uh,
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: migraine attacks. It certainly triggers in somebody who is, uh,
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: prone to get migraines and it's also a little bit
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: about that dehydration, right? If you drink, um, uh, alcohol,
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: and sometimes it's just not about the amount, you know,
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: you can have just half a cup and if you
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: are a person living with migraine and you're susceptible, alcohol
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: can certainly trigger.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: Right, so to those who, you know, like a cup
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: or two, of course, be careful, you know, don't drive, right? Drink,
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: don't drive. Make sure that you're well hydrated,
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: right?
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: Ensure that you're well
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: hydrated. Yeah, I, I was just, you know, all these
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: moments flashing in my mind of, of.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: And also wondering whether like different types of alcohol have
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: different effects on you. I'm sure people have different levels
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: of sensitivity as well
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: to that.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: It's a common question. Sometimes it's about the, the, the
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: what is the uh the drink. Some people will say that, oh,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: you know, champagne, bubblies, right, certainly will trigger an attack,
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: but if they drink, um, like a biodynamic red wine, right,
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: nowadays this thing called biodynamic red wine, the sulfides, the nitrates, yeah.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: Uh, if, if, if it triggers, then, you know, um,
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: so these are some of the components in alcohol that
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: could trigger.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: One last question before we take a break, um, on
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: that note as well, I also heard that sugar could
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: be the cause of contribute to hangovers. Is that, is
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: that
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: true?
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: I, I think it's the
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: tails and all that, you know.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: No, I, I, I think that's, that's perhaps a misconception, but,
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: but rather I would say the
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: Low sugar levels, very common, uh, trigger for, for migraine attacks.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: And therefore, if you recall what we mentioned earlier, if you, uh,
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: embark on very, uh, exercise, right, that's too intense, then
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: it's a good idea to always take a small fruit
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: or an energy bar just before your exercise so that you, um,
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: you know, uh, curtail that sugar fluctuation.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: prevent
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: that. When we come back here on the Shocir, we're
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: gonna find out more about when a migraine becomes a
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: chronic migraine, and you know, prevention is better than cure.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: Can it be prevented? You know, we sound like experts,
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: but we're not. We've got an expert here in the
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: studio and just want to say hi to Brian. Hi,
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: Doctor Jonathan, Pfizer team listening in the office right now
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: on TikTok that's on TikTok. So we're still there. We'll
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: take a quick break on air. We're still live on TikTok.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: Be back in a few minutes.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: It's Sonia and Joakim on the Shock circuit on 987.
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: I was just having a chat and a good laugh
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: off-air as well, but also addressing some of your answers
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: on TikTok. Yeah, so if you just joined us live
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: on air, we are being joined by senior consultant neurologist
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: at the National University Health System, adjunct Associate Professor Jonathan Ong,
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: and we're talking about the differences between a headache and
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: a migraine. So we've touched on quite important topics. In
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: case you missed it earlier, part one of it, you
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: can go catch up on me.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: Listen in Spotify, but right now, I, I, I do
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: wanna ask this in terms of a migraine and the
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: patients that come to see you, when they share about
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: how it has affected their daily lives, what are some
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: of the common things that affects for for the migraines? So,
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: so it's a disabling condition, right? And a lot of
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: them say that it takes away the meaningful parts of
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: their life, being a parent, being a spouse, being a
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: good worker.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: So I think um and, and judging from the, the
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: age range, right, it's, it's anybody from 25 all the
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: way up to even 65, but I have patients 80
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: years old and above, right? So it really affects a
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: lot of people and, and uh it's disabling and therefore
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: their quality of life is affected and.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: And they really want something to be done so that
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: they can live life as normally as possible. And
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: man,
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: right? Absolutely, So, I'm glad. Um, nowadays, uh, you know,
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: unlike a decade ago, right, the a better understanding of the,
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: the science behind migraine is just not a headache, but
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: there's actually
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: Um, a science behind it, we can pinpoint what's, what's happening,
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: you know, uh, and therefore there are new treatments, uh,
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: increasingly available, um, targeting at the very basis of why
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: migraine happens. So there's hope for, um, you know, listeners
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: who have been
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: Um, you struggling with headaches and seemingly there's no, uh, no, uh, cure.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying that there's a cure, but with these medications,
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: we are able to gain back the quality of life
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: that I talked
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: about.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: For women it's a bit different because I was just
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: bringing this up earlier, right, I'm not sure whether our
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: hormonal changes also contribute to more of these situations because I,
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: I experienced it a lot.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: especially during that time of the month, I get sometimes
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: very crippling headaches that sometimes I'm wondering, is it a
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: migraine as
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: well.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: So, um, a large part of, um, uh, a migraine
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: can be hormonally driven. So it's actually the peri uh
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: menses period just before a few days to up to
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: a week before the onset of the actual flow.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: And even uh beyond the the the onset of the flow,
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: we can still continue to be troublesome. So, um, this
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: is in fact something that I often talk about with,
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: with my patients in clinic and there are actually good ways,
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: very simple ways, uh, that we can help to deal
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: with this time of the month.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: So men?
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Oh wow, I was just wondering, yeah,
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: 3 times more common.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: Uh, in the female gender as compared to the male gender.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: OK, time of the month aside, given how Sonia and
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: I are shift workers, yeah, yeah, I'm very sure maybe
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: after what you just explained, migraines are more prevalent in
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: people who work shifts and wee hours of the night
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: or mornings. Right,
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: spot on. So, um, sleep deprivation, right, it's a very,
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: very common trigger.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: And you can imagine those working shifts like yourselves, uh, um,
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: fellow colleagues, right, in the hospital, nurses on call, SCDF personnel, right, um,
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: you know, they, it's a very common trigger, right? Uh,
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: in fact, oversleeping can also trigger headaches, so it's both ways,
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: it's just not the, the sleep deprivation.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Thankfully.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: I oversleeping a couple of times I wake up very
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: groggy and thinking that the sleep will help, but after
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: 2 or 3 hours I wake up, oh, it's worse.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: Is that because you're dehydrated over the night, I
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: think the
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: the migrainous brain loves 11 word, regularity. So from Monday
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: to Sunday, if you, if you have a migraine, um,
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: I would urge you to
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: Uh, perhaps regularize, if there's such a word for it,
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: your lifestyle, right? Um, sleep at the same time, wake
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: up at the same time. What is the magic number,
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: you know, it's, it's for one, to determine themselves, right,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: but just enough, right, um, and, and not, uh, sleep in.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: I know it, it, it sounds difficult. Uh, the tendency
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: is for us to be sleep deprived on a week, uh,
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: during the weekdays, and then on the weekend we try.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but for migraines, that's perhaps not a good idea.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: It's the regularity that counts.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Maybe this is why I'm routine. It's very hard to
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: break my routine, you get the migraine. Yes, I have
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: my answers I've been seeking. Hey, thank you so much
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: for doing this with us here this morning. I think
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: it was really enlightening. My pleasure. Um, you know, once
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: we get off.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: We would love to read some of these questions out
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: that our listeners and viewers are dying to know about.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: Can I ask one more question? Last one before we
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: wrap it up, of course. Thank you guys. Can we
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: prevent a migraine without any medication? Maybe stay hydrated, maybe, yeah,
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: like away from simple, simple lifestyle stuff. If you feel
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: like a migraine attack is coming, how can we prevent
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: it or straightaway address it's
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: excellent question. I gotta say
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: I sniff Hongtai, you know, you know.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: You know, the Thai, the Thai, yeah. I'm sorry, I
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: have to, hey, look, that's representative of like 80% of Singaporeans, OK,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: we definitely do that, right? OK, yeah.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: So I'm gonna answer Joakim's question, right? So the answer is, uh, yes,
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: and very much so. Uh, while we mentioned that there
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: are good treatment.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: Now, right, uh, actually a large part of, um, the
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: management of migraine is non-pharmacological, which means that, you know, it's, it's, um,
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: good lifestyle, right, in terms of, um, watching your diet,
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: healthy diet is important, right?
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: Um, work ergonomics, right? If you're in front of the
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: computer and, and your livelihood depends on, um, the screen,
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: then please take periodic breaks in between, um, you know,
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: staring at the screen, and, and by the way, uh, a,
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: a blue screen filter is very helpful, right, to minimize
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: the strain.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: And then exercise, I can't, um, you know, overemphasize this, right?
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: If you're not having a migraine attack, right, uh, one
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: of the ways, uh, that you can perhaps prevent one
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: is to, to exercise, right? Enjoy nature, get some sunlight,
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: you know, um, I, I think it goes a long way, right?
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: And this is just lifestyle, right? We have not even
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: touched on, uh, good medication that is fast becoming available.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: And uh this is actually, um, you know, uh uh
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: uh uh it works hand in hand. So medication is
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: one part, but importantly, it's the lifestyle.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: There we go. I
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: think the greatest takeaway from this is that it is
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: something that can be managed and helped. Yeah. Thank you
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: so much for that. We really appreciate it. Thank you.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: And of course, if you want to catch up with
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: this entire interview and chat brought to you by Pfizer,
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: log on to me Listen and Spotify after the show
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: is over.