Latest / Chris Thrall's Bought the T-Shirt Podcast / Louis Theroux's MANOSPHERE Exposed | Andrew Pain

Transcript

Louis Theroux's MANOSPHERE Exposed | Andrew Pain · Chris Thrall's Bought the T-Shirt Podcast

0:01
Speaker 1: Hello friends, I'm your host Chris Thrull, I'm a former
0:05
Speaker 1: Royal Marines Commando, I've adventured for better and sometimes worse
0:10
Speaker 1: across 80 countries on all 7 continents. Welcome to the
0:16
Speaker 1: Port Latisha Podcast.
0:25
Speaker 2: Well, I tell you what, Andrew, you've got a lot
0:27
Speaker 2: to live up to because it says there on the screen,
0:29
Speaker 2: you give a flawless delivery.
0:32
Speaker 3: Did it? Where does it say that? I'll try and
0:35
Speaker 3: be as flawless as I can be. Yes.
0:38
Speaker 2: Well, welcome back into my life, mate. We did a
0:41
Speaker 2: podcast together, didn't we? Was it a couple of years
0:43
Speaker 2: ago now?
0:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a beautiful episode. Really looking at your story.
0:48
Speaker 3: You really unpacked a sense of addiction. And how you
0:52
Speaker 3: moved beyond that. And there were some great stories as
0:55
Speaker 3: well within that. So no, I really enjoyed that episode
0:57
Speaker 3: that we did.
0:58
Speaker 2: Yes, I need to do more podcasts, Andrew, because I'm
1:01
Speaker 2: always so busy. It's not like I can sit down
1:03
Speaker 2: and approach people and say, hey, can I come on
1:05
Speaker 2: your podcast? And I sort of begrudge paying an agent
1:09
Speaker 2: because I don't really like middle middle sort of people that.
1:13
Speaker 4: Doesn't tend to work for me. But yeah, I do.
1:17
Speaker 2: I get I've been on quite a few podcasts where
1:20
Speaker 2: they the host at the end is just gone.
1:22
Speaker 4: That's the best podcast we've ever done.
1:25
Speaker 2: Doesn't necessarily get the views because, you know, people want
1:28
Speaker 2: more the sort of scandal side of life, don't they?
1:32
Speaker 4: But hey-ho. Anyway, we're not here to talk about me.
1:36
Speaker 4: We're here to talk about.
1:37
Speaker 2: You and your amazing book, which is doing really well,
1:41
Speaker 2: judging by all the five-star reviews. It's called Honestly, Man.
1:47
Speaker 2: And the strap line is why masculinity feels confusing. Shame
1:53
Speaker 2: doesn't help. and what to do about it. And I
1:57
Speaker 2: should say for our friends at home, Andrew's a TEDx speaker.
2:02
Speaker 2: He's an extremely busy family man. He's an advocate obviously
2:08
Speaker 2: for men's mental health. And yes, Andrew, over to you.
2:15
Speaker 2: What was the idea behind the book?
2:17
Speaker 3: The idea behind the book was to create a balanced
2:22
Speaker 3: resource that really unpacked why men are struggling today. There's
2:28
Speaker 3: a lot of resource on boys. So it doesn't talk
2:30
Speaker 3: so much about boys in education. Obviously that is referenced,
2:33
Speaker 3: but really looking at men today, why are men struggling
2:36
Speaker 3: and then practically what can we do about it? So
2:39
Speaker 3: I wanted it to be a practical resource. I wanted
2:42
Speaker 3: it to be obviously very well researched, but yet an
2:45
Speaker 3: easy to read resource at the same time. So in
2:48
Speaker 3: the style of writing, I try to write it as
2:51
Speaker 3: if I'm in the pub with my mates just chatting
2:53
Speaker 3: about this stuff. And so that's why it's there to
2:57
Speaker 3: help men. People understand the issue around men's well-being today.
3:03
Speaker 3: I think society is very divided. I don't think society
3:06
Speaker 3: is broken, but I think society is struggling. So I
3:09
Speaker 3: think it's important we bring balance to the discussion. And
3:14
Speaker 3: the other side, of course, as you can see from
3:17
Speaker 3: the front of the book, All profits raised from the
3:19
Speaker 3: book will support men and boys' charities because men's stuff
3:26
Speaker 3: is not exactly a funding magnet. So if I'm going
3:29
Speaker 3: to talk about this stuff, if I want to inspire people,
3:31
Speaker 3: educate people, actually, the book needs to be a practical
3:34
Speaker 3: resource as well. So that's the thinking behind it.
3:37
Speaker 4: Excellent.
3:38
Speaker 2: I mentioned there in the intro, I talk about tattoos.
3:41
Speaker 2: I talk about it quite a lot because clearly, by
3:44
Speaker 2: people going head to toe trying to change their bodies
3:48
Speaker 2: or their appearances, is people seeking something. And if I
3:53
Speaker 2: just take that one stage further, it's like this. Instagram
3:57
Speaker 2: is covered with men, with boys, bulging muscles you know
4:02
Speaker 2: the gym bod with skinny jeans or whatever the fashion
4:05
Speaker 2: is today i think we've gone baggy at the moment
4:08
Speaker 2: or back to baggy um they've clearly either spent a
4:13
Speaker 2: lot of time doing their hair or they've even been
4:15
Speaker 2: to turkey to spend an awful lot of money getting
4:18
Speaker 2: their hair back um they want to put it across
4:21
Speaker 2: that we're all living this you know speedboat in the
4:24
Speaker 2: south of france lifestyle or you know summit in everest
4:29
Speaker 2: well it's Some of.
4:30
Speaker 4: Us actually do that. Sorry, I just had to drop
4:32
Speaker 4: that in there. Absolutely, I would.
4:35
Speaker 3: If I'd been to Everest, I wouldn't stop talking about it.
4:38
Speaker 4: Yes, thank you, mate. Very kind.
4:40
Speaker 2: But the point I'm getting to, how come when these
4:45
Speaker 2: blokes walk down the road, when I'm out on my
4:47
Speaker 2: morning jog and I'm just about to pass them, they
4:50
Speaker 2: go like this and they look down at the ground,
4:53
Speaker 2: they look away from you and they physically do not
4:56
Speaker 2: possess whatever it is within a person that that allows
5:00
Speaker 2: them to go morning mate all right you know a
5:03
Speaker 2: simple i want to say courteous i don't think they're
5:06
Speaker 2: being discourteous i think men have been battered and women
5:11
Speaker 2: likewise i think the whole medical thing that we went
5:14
Speaker 2: through a few years ago really um hasn't sort of
5:19
Speaker 2: helped uh help people so you know i i sort
5:24
Speaker 2: of have a bit of a dog in this fight
5:25
Speaker 2: andrew you know i don't want people like that i
5:27
Speaker 2: want people holding their heads up high set you know
5:30
Speaker 2: how are you yada yada yada and uh i think
5:34
Speaker 2: we're just moving in a complete opposite way it's like
5:37
Speaker 2: the the rug's been pulled out from underneath uh men
5:41
Speaker 2: so that said what what's a traditional definition of masculinity
5:47
Speaker 2: and what why does that maybe not apply anymore.
5:50
Speaker 3: Well, there's two things here. One is the question about masculinity.
5:54
Speaker 3: I think just stepping back a moment before to what
5:58
Speaker 3: you're saying that sort of people, men that you're seeing,
6:01
Speaker 3: they're not even engaging. They're sort of looking down. You
6:03
Speaker 3: talked about social media as well. I do think there's
6:07
Speaker 3: fundamentally that there are challenges men are facing. I think
6:12
Speaker 3: social media, of course, is part of that. You only
6:14
Speaker 3: have to go to LinkedIn and it's everyone else's best bits.
6:17
Speaker 3: Everyone's published a book. Everyone's doing this, going there. No
6:20
Speaker 3: one ever says, I got a written warning today. I'm
6:23
Speaker 3: really sorry. I apologize unreservedly to my employer. It was merited.
6:27
Speaker 3: And yet thousands of written warnings are being issued every
6:29
Speaker 3: year within UK organizations, but no one's going to write
6:32
Speaker 3: about that stuff. And so if we're constantly bombarding ourselves
6:35
Speaker 3: with everybody else's best bits, everybody else's fake bits, everybody
6:39
Speaker 3: else's exaggerated bits, we shouldn't be surprised that we're going
6:42
Speaker 3: to feel so inadequate. The amount of time we spend
6:46
Speaker 3: on technology, the amount of time we spend in our
6:49
Speaker 3: rooms now. I would say there's less reason to go
6:52
Speaker 3: out because due to austerity, community has lost so much
6:56
Speaker 3: in terms of community spaces. We lost 16,000 pubs, half
6:59
Speaker 3: our nightclubs as an outworking of austerity measures. There's less
7:04
Speaker 3: reason to go out and there's more reason to stay
7:07
Speaker 3: in because technology is so amazing and keeps us in.
7:10
Speaker 3: I remember the computer games I grew up with. You'd
7:12
Speaker 3: have to load them up for 20 minutes on a
7:14
Speaker 3: cassette before you could play them. They'd crash after 15
7:16
Speaker 3: minutes and The graphics are rubbish. So you're playing for
7:20
Speaker 3: a bit, you go out, you do stuff. So I
7:22
Speaker 3: do think there's less mixing than there was.
7:24
Speaker 4: Mate, are you knocking Atari Tennis?
7:28
Speaker 3: I am absolutely knocking the games I play. Monty on
7:32
Speaker 3: the run with my Commodore 64. But it meant that
7:36
Speaker 3: when my mates came over, we did play computer games
7:39
Speaker 3: for about half an hour and then we'd go outside
7:41
Speaker 3: because outside was probably more fun. And so... We have
7:45
Speaker 3: that impact. The digital world has created an unimaginable life
7:49
Speaker 3: for us in many ways, but it has its downsides too.
7:52
Speaker 3: The loss of community spaces is a problem. The spread
7:56
Speaker 3: of disinformation. I think society has become more divided than ever,
8:01
Speaker 3: which is just at a time when we need to
8:03
Speaker 3: be connecting and trying to listen and get on with
8:07
Speaker 3: one another. That's not great. Men's testosterone levels, we know,
8:11
Speaker 3: have fallen quite steadily recently. over the last 50 or
8:15
Speaker 3: 60 years. So of course we're going to feel more depressed,
8:18
Speaker 3: more anxious, less engaged than we were when our testosterone
8:23
Speaker 3: levels will be lower than our grandfathers were when they
8:26
Speaker 3: were our age, however old we are, however old your
8:29
Speaker 3: listeners are. So there's a whole bunch of stuff going
8:31
Speaker 3: on that makes life quite difficult, that makes community building
8:35
Speaker 3: quite difficult, makes connection quite difficult. In terms of masculinity,
8:41
Speaker 3: I think I grew up with old sort of an
8:43
Speaker 3: old school masculinity code, you know, men as a man,
8:47
Speaker 3: I'm a gritter, not a quitter. A good man stoically
8:51
Speaker 3: struggles against the odds and finds the answers. Doesn't make
8:54
Speaker 3: himself a burden on anyone else. A good man rescues
8:58
Speaker 3: damsels in distress. And I was very much had that
9:02
Speaker 3: kind of masculinity code. And that didn't help me when
9:05
Speaker 3: I was going through experiencing domestic abuse, for example. I
9:08
Speaker 3: felt like I couldn't seek help. I felt embarrassed. I
9:11
Speaker 3: felt ashamed. And so I do think that everybody's own
9:16
Speaker 3: masculinity code is unique to them. I shouldn't impose my
9:20
Speaker 3: version of masculinity on you. Even if I got a
9:22
Speaker 3: PhD in gender studies, I wouldn't have an advantage in
9:25
Speaker 3: how I saw masculinity over you. But I do think
9:28
Speaker 3: as guys, we should be talking about actually what kind
9:31
Speaker 3: of men do we want to be? Are there areas
9:35
Speaker 3: of how we see our masculinity that need tweak so
9:39
Speaker 3: for example I see masculinity now as something that's quite
9:42
Speaker 3: broad rather than something like a narrow set of expectations
9:46
Speaker 3: and what horrified me when my third boy was born
9:50
Speaker 3: he was a home birth when the midwife rocked up
9:53
Speaker 3: it was a bloke and I remember thinking he can't
9:56
Speaker 3: be the best because he's a bloke like how can
9:59
Speaker 3: he be he walking into my house my wife's at
10:02
Speaker 3: that sort of stage of labor and i'm like panicking
10:04
Speaker 3: because i think he's going to be a crap midwife
10:06
Speaker 3: because he's a bloke so actually reflecting on some of
10:09
Speaker 3: this stuff laughing about it as well as blokes but
10:13
Speaker 3: but actually talking about well what what does that say
10:15
Speaker 3: about how i see masculinity how am i going to
10:19
Speaker 3: I want my boys and my girls, I've got grown
10:21
Speaker 3: up daughters as well, to see a version of masculinity
10:24
Speaker 3: from me that is inspiring, that is positive and that
10:29
Speaker 3: reflects who I am today. But I don't know if
10:32
Speaker 3: that answers your question.
10:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely it does. But I'm just going to say,
10:37
Speaker 2: did you check this bloke's ID? He hadn't just wandered
10:39
Speaker 2: in off the street, had he?
10:42
Speaker 3: I did wonder. So I'm a bit of a practical joker.
10:45
Speaker 3: I play football, a lot of football. I did wonder
10:46
Speaker 3: whether my footy mates were getting me back and I
10:48
Speaker 3: was thinking, this is a practical joke gone too far.
10:50
Speaker 3: But no, he did. He was the midwife and he
10:53
Speaker 3: was actually a fantastic midwife, married man with a child
10:58
Speaker 3: of his own. But it blew me away that he
11:02
Speaker 3: was a midwife. But then when I think about me,
11:04
Speaker 3: where will you find me? You'll find me in the pub,
11:07
Speaker 3: on a chin at bar, jumping off stuff or playing football.
11:10
Speaker 3: You could say, well, those are typically... masculine traits, manly pursuits.
11:15
Speaker 3: But then I love ironing. I would be the first
11:19
Speaker 3: to cry at a sad movie long before my wife will.
11:22
Speaker 3: I'm a very emotional man. I'm rubbish at DIY. And
11:27
Speaker 3: I used to be really ashamed of that. A good
11:28
Speaker 3: man would not be rubbish at DIY. I've battled this
11:30
Speaker 3: for years until I finally sort of come to terms
11:33
Speaker 3: with the fact that there's a certain amount I will
11:35
Speaker 3: try and do. I think it's important that my boys
11:37
Speaker 3: see me having a go at stuff that I know
11:39
Speaker 3: I'm rubbish at. But I'm not going to berate myself
11:43
Speaker 3: or put myself on some kind of a mission to
11:45
Speaker 3: improve my DIY skills because that's just not my skill set.
11:49
Speaker 3: And that's OK. And I accept that. But I used
11:53
Speaker 3: to put myself under so much pressure in that area
11:57
Speaker 3: because I felt like a good man would be good
11:59
Speaker 3: at that stuff. But says who?
12:00
Speaker 1: Yes.
12:02
Speaker 2: Because when you think masculinity, we always immediately think of muscles,
12:07
Speaker 2: don't we? And going at a task and getting in
12:10
Speaker 2: a scrap or whatever.
12:11
Speaker 4: But for me, I don't.
12:14
Speaker 2: Know if this is a trait of masculinity or just
12:16
Speaker 2: being a good human being, because it applies to women
12:18
Speaker 2: as well, but being loyal. is something that's been drummed
12:22
Speaker 2: out of people. Everyone's sloped shoulders now and blames someone else.
12:26
Speaker 2: It's awful in the workplace. I mean, in the modern workplace,
12:30
Speaker 2: I don't feel that you can get ahead unless you're
12:32
Speaker 2: an absolute creep, you know, unless you're, I'm not saying
12:35
Speaker 2: that in every single, you know, occupation out there, but
12:39
Speaker 2: I worked in the social field a lot and there
12:42
Speaker 2: was this kind of thing that, you know, if you
12:44
Speaker 2: didn't jump through the hoops, you didn't get ahead. And
12:46
Speaker 2: that meant absolutely having to dump on your mates. So yeah, masculinity,
12:54
Speaker 2: can we say it's going through changes?
12:56
Speaker 3: I think so. And I think it's really helpful to
13:00
Speaker 3: talk about it in positive terms. I'm not a fan,
13:04
Speaker 3: as I'm sure you'll appreciate, of the term toxic masculinity.
13:08
Speaker 3: We do see it in the press. A man does
13:11
Speaker 3: a bad thing. It's all around. We've got to tackle
13:14
Speaker 3: the scourge of, of misogyny and tax toxic. You know,
13:17
Speaker 3: you see that in terms of the messaging, actually, we
13:19
Speaker 3: need to deal with these out of control boys. And
13:22
Speaker 3: I do think that a lot of research that sort
13:25
Speaker 3: of backs up the claim, I cover this in my book,
13:29
Speaker 3: the ludicrous piece of research from Australia that has now
13:33
Speaker 3: been picked apart, thankfully, but it made it over into
13:36
Speaker 3: the Guardian and Sky News over here, that a third
13:39
Speaker 3: of men in Australia have admitted to using intimate partner
13:42
Speaker 3: violence at one stage or another. But when you look
13:45
Speaker 3: at the actual research, men were asked two questions. Have
13:50
Speaker 3: you used intimate partner violence? Question number one, yes or no.
13:54
Speaker 3: Question number two, have you ever made your partner feel
13:57
Speaker 3: anxious at any time? Yes or no. And both answers
14:02
Speaker 3: were included as part of intimate partner violence. But my
14:05
Speaker 3: point would be, nobody can answer no to questions. Have
14:09
Speaker 3: I ever made my wife feel anxious? Well, of course
14:11
Speaker 3: I have. Of course I have. We share a home.
14:14
Speaker 3: What about the time I forgot to ring her that
14:16
Speaker 3: I was late? She felt anxious. Where's Andrew? He hasn't come.
14:19
Speaker 3: Of course, anybody answering that question would have to say yes.
14:21
Speaker 3: So really, 100% of people were probably guilty of interpartial violence.
14:26
Speaker 3: But it made the headlines, as you can imagine. So
14:30
Speaker 3: I do think that knowing that men often, it's the
14:35
Speaker 3: negative stuff that is brought out and talked about. I
14:39
Speaker 3: do think when we talk about masculinity, that it's helpful
14:41
Speaker 3: to do so from a positive setting so i just
14:45
Speaker 3: talk about well what kind of men do we want
14:47
Speaker 3: to be are there areas of our masculinity that we
14:50
Speaker 3: want to evolve and change and when there are groups
14:53
Speaker 3: that go into schools to work with boys like groups
14:55
Speaker 3: like progressive masculinity they they go in with just positively
15:00
Speaker 3: like on that basis blank canvas rather than we're going
15:04
Speaker 3: in to tackle misogyny misogyny exists of course as does
15:08
Speaker 3: misandry which is the opposite hatred hatred of men But
15:11
Speaker 3: I don't think that helps in having a good conversation
15:15
Speaker 3: where you're starting from a point of view that now
15:17
Speaker 3: masculinity must be changed. Masculinity is masculinity. It's just that
15:22
Speaker 3: the world has changed. And so I think it's helpful
15:25
Speaker 3: that we evaluate what we think about masculinity as men.
15:29
Speaker 3: I think as men, that's a good conversation to have.
15:31
Speaker 2: So what do we think, what's going on with the
15:34
Speaker 2: lives of, say, Andrew Tate, the this histocky ticky tocky
15:41
Speaker 2: or whatever his name is these hs ticky these manosphere
15:45
Speaker 2: guys that are having this significant influence over some would
15:49
Speaker 2: argue vulnerable young men who are foundering their their loss
15:53
Speaker 2: perhaps they've got you know an absence of a role
15:57
Speaker 2: model a male role model in their life i don't
16:00
Speaker 2: know obviously i don't know them all um what What
16:04
Speaker 2: is this thing, this kind of, you know, big muscles,
16:07
Speaker 2: get down the gym, get on the social media to
16:11
Speaker 2: put out this, you know, your messages, earn a lot
16:15
Speaker 2: of money and basically expect women to be subversive to you.
16:22
Speaker 2: Although whenever they're put on the spot, they seem to
16:25
Speaker 2: have an argument that that's not the case.
16:26
Speaker 4: But what's going on there, Andrew?
16:28
Speaker 3: So I watched Louis Theroux's Inside the Manosphere documentary, as
16:33
Speaker 3: many people did. I've actually suggested he should write a follow-up,
16:37
Speaker 3: a sequel called These Men Do, that celebrates the really
16:40
Speaker 3: wonderful men online, rather than just always the negative stuff.
16:44
Speaker 3: So there are some really negative influences within the Manosphere
16:50
Speaker 3: that we should be concerned about. What is driving them?
16:53
Speaker 3: What motivates an Andrew Tate, an H.S. Tiki Toki? For me,
16:57
Speaker 3: they're in the same boat as Bonnie Blue. They know
17:00
Speaker 3: that in order to make money, they have to shock.
17:02
Speaker 3: And if they can shock, they'll make money. And they'll
17:05
Speaker 3: have their Marbella apartment. But ages tickety-tock. Let's just say
17:11
Speaker 3: he puts out a wholesome message. Actually, as young people,
17:13
Speaker 3: as young men, we should volunteer at the local food bank.
17:16
Speaker 3: We should help one each. We're going to do a
17:19
Speaker 3: bit of a collection. We'll do an expedition somewhere and
17:22
Speaker 3: raise money for the homeless. The point is, he'll get
17:25
Speaker 3: some following... but not nearly enough to make any money
17:28
Speaker 3: from it. So if he's ultra misogynistic and creates a...
17:32
Speaker 3: So for me, it's about shock value, which is why
17:34
Speaker 3: Bonnie Blue, I mean, the latest stunts that you see
17:37
Speaker 3: is beyond belief because she has to keep taking it
17:42
Speaker 3: that step further to keep people engaged so she can
17:45
Speaker 3: keep making her millions of pounds. So for me, do
17:47
Speaker 3: they even believe what they say? They may do, they
17:50
Speaker 3: may not, but it's primarily a money-making thing at all costs.
17:54
Speaker 3: And that's a real sad, reflection on society, because they
17:58
Speaker 3: have a very, very negative impact, because there are boys, undoubtedly,
18:02
Speaker 3: within our schools that get very influenced by them, that
18:04
Speaker 3: look up to them, that want to replicate their behaviour.
18:07
Speaker 3: And that's a really sad, sad thing. They have a,
18:11
Speaker 3: you know, they have a lot of responsibility for the
18:15
Speaker 3: behaviour of our young boys. But ultimately, what motivates them,
18:18
Speaker 3: I think, is purely money, cash, and shock creates cash.
18:22
Speaker 3: Wholesome content doesn't.
18:23
Speaker 4: Do you think they're all mummy's boys?
18:26
Speaker 3: I don't know. I think that's a difficult one. One
18:29
Speaker 3: of the influences within Louis Theroux's documentary, interestingly referenced having
18:33
Speaker 3: an abusive mother, but that was quickly, I can't think
18:40
Speaker 3: of the right phrase, but that was quickly sort of,
18:43
Speaker 3: Theroux moved on very quickly from that. There was no
18:47
Speaker 3: sense of actually, what's the impact of that if that
18:49
Speaker 3: is true? It was very anti-Manosphere, anti-male. These guys are awful.
18:55
Speaker 3: And obviously, I think the negative voices in the Manosphere
18:59
Speaker 3: are really dangerous voices. The impact is very negative. But
19:03
Speaker 3: it's interesting that that was glossed over. That was the
19:06
Speaker 3: word I was looking for, glossed over. So I don't
19:08
Speaker 3: think it's too simplistic to say that, well, mum is boys.
19:11
Speaker 3: I think they committed it for complex reasons. But primarily,
19:15
Speaker 3: it's driven by cash, would be my view.
19:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, it probably sounded a bit rude then. I think
19:20
Speaker 2: what I'm getting at is, to me, Louis Theroux is
19:23
Speaker 2: a paid agitator. His role in society is to create
19:29
Speaker 2: disharmony because order out of chaos means social control. And
19:34
Speaker 2: in that documentary, he did not attempt once to ascertain
19:39
Speaker 2: the parentage of these lads, what had gone on in
19:44
Speaker 2: their lives... to make them turn out to be the
19:47
Speaker 2: person that they were.
19:49
Speaker 4: Strong emphasis. certainly I believe one or two in.
19:53
Speaker 2: That documentary with the mother, this kind of, I don't
19:56
Speaker 2: know if you call it an Oedipus complex, but that
19:59
Speaker 2: kind of, you know, where's the father in these lads' lives?
20:03
Speaker 2: Where was their significant male role model? So, you know,
20:07
Speaker 2: My question is all from a psychosocial perspective, as a
20:11
Speaker 2: youth worker, I'm like, you know, what's really going on here?
20:16
Speaker 2: It's easy just to hate someone on the screen, but
20:20
Speaker 2: that's a bit shallow because you need to know what
20:23
Speaker 2: the complete picture. And yeah, so that's what I was
20:27
Speaker 2: getting at is, you know, was there an absent father
20:31
Speaker 2: for these guys or was there an abusive father?
20:33
Speaker 3: I think absent father, yeah, abusive father, yeah. I also
20:38
Speaker 3: wonder to what degree I'm always interested to know about
20:44
Speaker 3: poverty postcodes, that kind of stuff as well. I definitely
20:48
Speaker 3: think a lot of their following will be isolated guys
20:53
Speaker 3: who maybe have an absent father, who maybe live in poverty.
20:56
Speaker 3: If you think about my boys, I've got three boys,
20:58
Speaker 3: age 7, 10 and 13. Both parents work, but I'm
21:02
Speaker 3: around a lot. My wife is around a lot. We're
21:05
Speaker 3: very hands-on parents, if that's such a thing. But my eldest,
21:09
Speaker 3: he doesn't even take his phone to school at 13.
21:11
Speaker 3: He has no interest in social media whatsoever. The other two,
21:16
Speaker 3: they game a little bit. But they are all in
21:19
Speaker 3: a football club, a beautiful football club. They all have
21:22
Speaker 3: diving lessons off the boards. We've got a magnificent facility
21:26
Speaker 3: literally within a mile of our house. They're all in
21:29
Speaker 3: dive school off the diving boards. They have a blast.
21:30
Speaker 3: They love it. They all have music lessons. There's three
21:33
Speaker 3: of them. So when they're gaming, they're all together chatting
21:36
Speaker 3: about what's going on, advising each other, teasing each other, bands,
21:40
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff. But I do think falling birth rates,
21:43
Speaker 3: there's less siblings around. So people are more, the family
21:48
Speaker 3: units are smaller, higher relationship breakdown rates. So there's generally
21:55
Speaker 3: not two parents around sharing the load in that shared
21:58
Speaker 3: cooperative way. And poverty is massive. Because these activities cost
22:03
Speaker 3: me an absolute, me and my wife, a fortune. It
22:07
Speaker 3: means that my boys are going out, they're offline, they're connected,
22:10
Speaker 3: they're socializing, they're active, they're learning new skills. But so
22:15
Speaker 3: many families would not be able to afford what we
22:17
Speaker 3: do because it costs us a fortune. We can barely
22:19
Speaker 3: afford it, but we do. It's okay. So I do think,
22:22
Speaker 3: you know, when you think about the boys' lives, boys
22:25
Speaker 3: getting swept up within the manosphere, and I think you're
22:27
Speaker 3: right with Louis Theroux, paid agitator. Actually, why are boys
22:30
Speaker 3: getting drawn to this? What is their life like? And actually,
22:34
Speaker 3: then for me, there are bigger questions around community, social inequality,
22:39
Speaker 3: and so on and so forth.
22:40
Speaker 4: Do you think it's an issue?
22:42
Speaker 2: I'll try and be careful how I say this, but, well,
22:46
Speaker 2: I'll just say it. There was a time when sitting...
22:49
Speaker 2: behind a screen typing in data all day long or
22:54
Speaker 2: some form of that role would be seen as woman's
22:58
Speaker 2: work obviously i don't mean that derogatory to women i'm
23:03
Speaker 2: just saying that these lads did they dream when they
23:07
Speaker 2: were youngsters that they were going to grow up and
23:09
Speaker 2: basically be a sort of you know, a form of
23:12
Speaker 2: secretary within their, you know, their office framework? Or did
23:17
Speaker 2: they grow up like me thinking that they were going
23:20
Speaker 2: to be Tarzan one day, and they were going to
23:22
Speaker 2: fight for the oppressed and swing through the jungle and
23:26
Speaker 2: be friends with the animals and not afraid to, you know,
23:29
Speaker 2: bash an elephant if.
23:32
Speaker 4: It comes to call?
23:34
Speaker 2: Do you think that they see the social media and
23:36
Speaker 2: they see these people in the Rolls Royce and the
23:38
Speaker 2: Mercedes and the bling and the, you know, hanging off
23:42
Speaker 2: a hang glider, gorgeous girl. And they're sat there going,
23:46
Speaker 2: feeling a huge sense of unfulfillment.
23:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's absolutely, I would definitely say, so
23:54
Speaker 3: we are more sedentary anyway as people. For people, it's
23:59
Speaker 3: important to be active. But when you think about guys,
24:02
Speaker 3: when I think about my, the level of energy that
24:06
Speaker 3: my boys have. Thank God we do have a house
24:09
Speaker 3: and we live next to parkland and we can afford
24:13
Speaker 3: for them to do activities. It is, and that they
24:15
Speaker 3: have each other because without those outlets, what then? It's
24:21
Speaker 3: interesting with the Tarzan, you know, and yeah. But when
24:25
Speaker 3: you think about young children today and, you know, you
24:28
Speaker 3: go out to a curry house and they're just on
24:30
Speaker 3: their iPads, All the kids are there with their families
24:32
Speaker 3: out for dinner on their iPads. It's just so sad.
24:37
Speaker 3: And I think there's a parental responsibility. There's a societal
24:40
Speaker 3: responsibility to give our children a childhood back. But that
24:45
Speaker 3: does require some big questions around screens and what we
24:49
Speaker 3: do with phones. So, yeah, I think potentially guys may
24:54
Speaker 3: have grown up wanting to sort of be outside, being
24:56
Speaker 3: the hero. But we've sort of lost some of that.
24:59
Speaker 3: Because there's less reason to go out and more reason
25:01
Speaker 3: to stay in.
25:03
Speaker 4: Yes, the old battle with a tablet.
25:05
Speaker 2: Any modern day parent is familiar with that.
25:09
Speaker 3: Parents need to unite. And that's where I think I've
25:13
Speaker 3: heard a lot of mixed reaction around sort of social
25:16
Speaker 3: media bans on under 16s, banning smartphones. A lot of
25:20
Speaker 3: educators say we just need to teach children to use
25:23
Speaker 3: them more effectively, have better boundaries. But it's really, really
25:26
Speaker 3: hard when... All the other kids in your kids' class
25:30
Speaker 3: have one of those. And when my daughters, who are
25:33
Speaker 3: now 25 and 22, when they were going through it
25:36
Speaker 3: all in their late teens, it's really hard having a
25:39
Speaker 3: 16-year-old who's doing her GCSEs, who's up till 2 in
25:43
Speaker 3: the morning on the messaging WhatsApp groups, because otherwise she's
25:47
Speaker 3: missing out on it all. She's got exams. So, of course,
25:50
Speaker 3: we're going to turn the entire family internet off. 11.30,
25:53
Speaker 3: that's cut-off point. But that now means... She's missing all
25:57
Speaker 3: that social stuff and she really feels it. That causes
26:00
Speaker 3: huge tension at home in the middle of her GCSEs.
26:04
Speaker 3: But that's the world that we're living in. I think
26:07
Speaker 3: as much as possible, parents need to not feel inadequate.
26:10
Speaker 3: This is stuff we're all struggling with. If you're struggling
26:12
Speaker 3: with it, you're not a stupid or weak parent. You're
26:15
Speaker 3: just trying to get your head around it. But it's
26:16
Speaker 3: where parents and schools need to unite. And it's where
26:20
Speaker 3: government can actually help. Because actually the government puts certain
26:24
Speaker 3: bans in place and then schools follow. it's easier as
26:27
Speaker 3: parents to say, no, we're doing this too. And to
26:29
Speaker 3: justify it makes it easier at home. And that's where,
26:33
Speaker 3: for me, government can be really positive and a source
26:36
Speaker 3: of positive change. Yes.
26:38
Speaker 2: With respect to the tablets and the screen time, from
26:41
Speaker 2: where I sit, it's clearly an addictive device. That dopamine
26:47
Speaker 2: that the kids are getting at such a young age
26:49
Speaker 2: where they're never going to want... I mean, you actually
26:51
Speaker 2: catch them sneaking away to go on their tablet, don't you?
26:55
Speaker 1: And.
26:56
Speaker 2: So the government's saying, oh, just adequate parenting, teach them boundaries,
27:04
Speaker 2: and it doesn't work like that.
27:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, the government's not saying that, actually. The government is
27:09
Speaker 3: now putting in place some bans, and I think that's
27:12
Speaker 3: a good thing. But there's a lot of pushback from
27:15
Speaker 3: educators and youth workers in this space saying a ban
27:18
Speaker 3: is the wrong thing. It pushes it underground. I see that.
27:21
Speaker 3: But for me as a parent, these are highly, highly
27:24
Speaker 3: addictive things. devices and adults struggle with it too so
27:27
Speaker 3: at the start of this conversation you were talking about
27:30
Speaker 3: people sort of walking down the road sort of eyes
27:32
Speaker 3: on the ground not gonna part of that is they're
27:34
Speaker 3: addicted too to this stuff because it's so powerful even
27:38
Speaker 3: if you know it's powerful you're still i know it's
27:41
Speaker 3: powerful but if i'm feeling a have one of those days,
27:46
Speaker 3: the crap that I end up watching on TikTok. Why
27:51
Speaker 3: am I doing that? Why am I doing that? And
27:53
Speaker 3: I'll pop on because there's a few comedians I like.
27:56
Speaker 3: So I'll watch a couple of their clips. But I
27:58
Speaker 3: know what's coming next. An hour later, I've been watching
28:02
Speaker 3: lions savaging gazelles, Lionel Messi's best goals. I've already seen
28:06
Speaker 3: a thousand times before. Why am I watching this stuff?
28:09
Speaker 3: And it's highly addictive. But in the grander scheme of things,
28:12
Speaker 3: in terms of men's well-being... this stuff is a problem
28:16
Speaker 3: because we're in more and out less. We're out less,
28:20
Speaker 3: so there is that issue of we're more sedentary, but
28:23
Speaker 3: that has an issue then on our testosterone levels falling,
28:26
Speaker 3: has an issue on vitamin D, which as we get
28:29
Speaker 3: older anyway, our skin doesn't absorb the sunlight in the
28:33
Speaker 3: way that it could when we're in our 20s and
28:35
Speaker 3: convert that into vitamin D. So when we're low in
28:38
Speaker 3: vitamin D, Of course, then we're going to feel lethargic, depressed,
28:43
Speaker 3: out of energy. Add to that lower levels of testosterone.
28:46
Speaker 3: So there could be a reason why people are looking
28:48
Speaker 3: on the floor all despondent. Some of that can be
28:51
Speaker 3: that they're out of social habits now that we would
28:53
Speaker 3: have had 20, 30 years ago. Think about all the
28:56
Speaker 3: little interactions we'd have had in the day at Sainsbury's
28:59
Speaker 3: with the person on the till. But now we go
29:01
Speaker 3: through the electronic checkouts. So there's a social reason why
29:05
Speaker 3: people are doing that. But physically as well, because we're
29:08
Speaker 3: in more and out less, not only is there less
29:11
Speaker 3: of that social interaction, but physically you like to get
29:14
Speaker 3: lower testosterone because you're more sedentary, vitamin D issues because
29:18
Speaker 3: you're inside more. And this stuff is a problem. There's
29:21
Speaker 3: a lot of angles to it where I think as guys,
29:24
Speaker 3: we need to come together, help each other, get ourselves
29:28
Speaker 3: out more in real offline communities that are out there exploring,
29:34
Speaker 3: doing stuff, creating spaces where actually younger guys might come
29:39
Speaker 3: out to as well. so we can get people out
29:41
Speaker 3: of their homes and doing stuff.
29:43
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely.
29:45
Speaker 2: I'm just thinking of years and years ago, I went
29:47
Speaker 2: to an Anthony Robbins seminar, you know, the one where
29:51
Speaker 2: he teaches you how to fire walk and all.
29:53
Speaker 4: This sort of stuff.
29:54
Speaker 2: And the technique to walking across red hot coals or
29:59
Speaker 2: I should say red-hot embers. Don't try walking across red-hot coals, guys.
30:03
Speaker 2: You will burn your feet. Red-hot embers, though, is for
30:07
Speaker 2: some reason it's different. But when you're stood at the
30:11
Speaker 2: one end of that carpet of embers... with all the
30:15
Speaker 2: smoke coming off it, obviously it's quite a daunting thing
30:17
Speaker 2: to do, especially the first time. And so to break
30:21
Speaker 2: yourself from your, I don't know if reverie is the
30:25
Speaker 2: right word, from your mindset, you've got to make a move.
30:29
Speaker 2: And Anthony Robbins tells you, this is the move. And
30:33
Speaker 2: in that second, you just start charging across.
30:36
Speaker 3: That's it.
30:38
Speaker 2: It's like a magic wand breaking the sort of... you know,
30:41
Speaker 2: the tension, and you start to walk. At the same time,
30:46
Speaker 2: you're saying, cool moss, cool moss, cool moss. And amazingly,
30:52
Speaker 2: you walk across this, you do this fire walk, which
30:55
Speaker 2: I've done several times on my own over the years,
30:59
Speaker 2: or I've set up myself, I mean. And I'm just
31:03
Speaker 2: saying this for people listening now or watching, you know,
31:07
Speaker 2: step up to the plate, fellas. There's a lot going
31:10
Speaker 2: against us in this life and you've got to hold
31:12
Speaker 2: your head up high because only you can do it.
31:16
Speaker 2: You've got to accept you take second best to nobody.
31:21
Speaker 2: We are all equal in this game. And you want
31:24
Speaker 2: to hold your head up high. You want to look
31:26
Speaker 2: people in the eye when you speak to them. And
31:30
Speaker 2: you want to get the maximum out of your life.
31:33
Speaker 2: And the number of times I've been stood behind an
31:36
Speaker 2: office door waiting to go in for a bollocking from
31:39
Speaker 2: the boss or for an interview or whatever it might be,
31:44
Speaker 2: the number of times I've stood there and gone.
31:50
Speaker 4: And I broke through that fear.
31:52
Speaker 2: And I seize the day because I seize my life. And,
31:57
Speaker 2: you know, only you can make this. It's not going
32:00
Speaker 2: to be done for you. If you want to climb
32:02
Speaker 2: the Everest, if you want to row the ocean, if
32:04
Speaker 2: you want to write the books, if you want to
32:06
Speaker 2: have the physique, if you want to, you know, have
32:10
Speaker 2: a loving, caring family and offspring that look up to you,
32:15
Speaker 2: you've got to pull it.
32:15
Speaker 4: Out of the bag, fellas, you know?
32:17
Speaker 3: I think that's right.
32:19
Speaker 2: You can't let this constant, smashing of our of our
32:23
Speaker 2: self-confidence that happens on the social media and from the
32:28
Speaker 2: the mainstream media you you can't let them dictate your
32:33
Speaker 2: your life to you sorry andrew i just wanted to
32:35
Speaker 2: i think and i think with that kind of stepping
32:40
Speaker 2: up it's understanding as.
32:42
Speaker 3: Well i often see people that um want to step up,
32:45
Speaker 3: that do step up. Maybe they've felt like they've been,
32:49
Speaker 3: they've lacked confidence to do that. They've felt like they
32:52
Speaker 3: don't know where to turn, how they're going to move forward. Finally,
32:54
Speaker 3: they step out there, but it doesn't go as they planned.
32:57
Speaker 3: Like not a lot happens. And so they go back,
33:01
Speaker 3: they retreat quickly. And with any kind of progress, these
33:05
Speaker 3: things take time, a lot of time. They always, whatever
33:08
Speaker 3: you want to achieve is going to take longer than
33:09
Speaker 3: you think. But actually we can still do stuff with
33:13
Speaker 3: just a little bit of input Each day, we can
33:16
Speaker 3: make stuff happen. And I think about the book. For me,
33:20
Speaker 3: that was a real step-up moment. At the end of 2024,
33:23
Speaker 3: I knew I needed to write a book for my business.
33:25
Speaker 3: I'm a full-time speaker. But how the hell am I
33:27
Speaker 3: going to write a book when I'm so busy with
33:29
Speaker 3: my kids? My wonderful wife, she works for the NHS,
33:32
Speaker 3: does a great job. We are stretched beyond belief. We're
33:35
Speaker 3: both essentially full-time. We do loads in our community. And
33:39
Speaker 3: it felt like I can't do this. I literally... can't
33:44
Speaker 3: do this at this point in time but i really
33:46
Speaker 3: felt this pull so the end of 2024 i made
33:49
Speaker 3: a commitment that i would spend a minimum of half
33:52
Speaker 3: an hour a day through 2025 other than my summer
33:55
Speaker 3: holiday it's two weeks even if i was ill in
33:57
Speaker 3: bed i can still be on my laptop minimum half
33:59
Speaker 3: an hour a day progressing that book and on a
34:01
Speaker 3: good day i'll do a bit more obviously um and
34:04
Speaker 3: if i don't feel like i can write on that
34:06
Speaker 3: half an hour i might do some research but that's
34:07
Speaker 3: the minimum every day in 2025 And then I'll review
34:11
Speaker 3: this at the end of 2025. I'm not going to
34:13
Speaker 3: review it in September. That ain't the end of 2025. December,
34:16
Speaker 3: let's see how far I've got. My hope is I've
34:18
Speaker 3: got a substantially developed first draft written. And that's what
34:21
Speaker 3: it took. And there were days where I was like,
34:24
Speaker 3: why am I doing this? And I'd remind myself of
34:26
Speaker 3: that commitment. It's too early to judge this. It's only April.
34:29
Speaker 3: So as long as I keep doing that minimum, this
34:32
Speaker 3: book will progress. And the book got written in 2025.
34:35
Speaker 3: It got completed because of that commitment, which on my
34:38
Speaker 3: worst days, I wanted to give up, but I had
34:40
Speaker 3: that commitment. So for me, the lesson is just that
34:44
Speaker 3: step up to the plate and understand that we are
34:48
Speaker 3: naturally impatient as people because we have everything at our
34:51
Speaker 3: fingertips in a way that we didn't 40 or 50
34:54
Speaker 3: years ago. So understand, therefore, make some commitments, understand these things,
34:59
Speaker 3: take time and then get started. And then if it's something,
35:03
Speaker 3: a cause that you believe in, something positive, make sure
35:06
Speaker 3: that you fact check and fact check and fact check
35:08
Speaker 3: again so that the information that you are basing your
35:12
Speaker 3: ideas on is as credible as it can be. And
35:17
Speaker 3: that was a big part of me as I wrote
35:19
Speaker 3: my book anyway throughout 2025. So for me, that idea
35:22
Speaker 3: of the excitement of stepping up, but then keeping in
35:25
Speaker 3: check the fact that these things take time so that
35:28
Speaker 3: when they do take time, having stepped up, you're not
35:32
Speaker 3: then like demoralized and back worse than where you were before.
35:36
Speaker 4: Absolutely. You talk about the empathy gap. Can you explain
35:41
Speaker 4: that for us?
35:43
Speaker 3: Yeah. So it's great. What I love about the empathy gap.
35:47
Speaker 3: So when a corporate booker is about to book me
35:50
Speaker 3: for a keynote talk, they're big corporate organizations. When I
35:54
Speaker 3: mentioned the empathy gap, you can see them going like that.
35:57
Speaker 3: And when I explain it to them, they're like, oh,
35:59
Speaker 3: that's really interesting. yeah, you should definitely keep that in
36:03
Speaker 3: the talk. Because normally I give them a choice of
36:05
Speaker 3: what they want to have and I want them to
36:07
Speaker 3: know what's coming up. So the empathy gap, I love
36:09
Speaker 3: talking about it because it's one of those things where
36:12
Speaker 3: certain people with a certain outlook on gender and politics
36:15
Speaker 3: would be like, and then when you explain it to them,
36:16
Speaker 3: they're like, actually, that makes a lot of sense. Actually,
36:19
Speaker 3: that's really important. We do talk about that. So the
36:21
Speaker 3: empathy gap is based on this idea and it's backed
36:24
Speaker 3: by research that we have more empathy for women struggling
36:30
Speaker 3: in a predicament than we would for men that might
36:33
Speaker 3: be struggling in that same predicament, whether that's a health-related predicament,
36:37
Speaker 3: whether that's homelessness, for example, whether that's refugee status, or
36:41
Speaker 3: whatever it may be, we have more sympathy for women
36:45
Speaker 3: than men. And that is borne out, and I've mentioned
36:47
Speaker 3: the research in my book. And there's a few reasons.
36:49
Speaker 3: I don't believe it's a conspiracy that it's like this.
36:53
Speaker 3: I don't blame feminism really for this. I do think
36:56
Speaker 3: because we've tried to create equality for women and girls
36:58
Speaker 3: And our attention has been there over recent decades. Therefore,
37:03
Speaker 3: we have forgotten parts of society have forgotten our men
37:07
Speaker 3: and boys. And I do think that that is part
37:09
Speaker 3: of it. But I think it goes back further. The
37:12
Speaker 3: Birkenhead drill, women and children first, that came from the
37:16
Speaker 3: sinking of HMS Birkenhead in Victorian times. where the male
37:21
Speaker 3: soldiers let the women and children into the lifeboats first
37:24
Speaker 3: and they mostly drowned or were picked off by sharks.
37:28
Speaker 3: And it was seen as a real noble sacrifice. It
37:31
Speaker 3: was from that that we have the Birkenhead drill, women
37:33
Speaker 3: and children first. And I think how that's then played
37:35
Speaker 3: out in our psyche when it comes to public policy
37:39
Speaker 3: is very much women and children first. It goes back
37:41
Speaker 3: to Victorian times. Evolutionary reasons. If you think, if we're
37:46
Speaker 3: down to the last 20 human beings on the planet
37:48
Speaker 3: you'd be better off with 13 women and seven men
37:51
Speaker 3: than the other way round. So I think there's something evolutionary.
37:55
Speaker 3: And I also put it down to old masculinity codes.
37:57
Speaker 3: I was always primed to be a knight in shining
37:59
Speaker 3: armor for damsels in distress. So if it came to
38:02
Speaker 3: opening a door for someone on a train, standing aside,
38:05
Speaker 3: I'd let a woman on, but never a bloke, never
38:07
Speaker 3: a bloke. Whereas now for me, chivalry is about courtesy
38:11
Speaker 3: to all. But so there's various reasons why, but I
38:14
Speaker 3: think it's important to, We just understand that that might
38:17
Speaker 3: be in place, that it does then have an impact
38:21
Speaker 3: on within politics, with public policy. And therefore, actually, just
38:27
Speaker 3: understanding that that might be at play is a really
38:30
Speaker 3: good start and making sure that we do put stuff
38:33
Speaker 3: in place for men and boys who are humans, too.
38:37
Speaker 3: There is a spend within an organization on the men's network,
38:40
Speaker 3: just as there is on the women's network. And it's
38:42
Speaker 3: just understanding that. And so that's hopefully explained in a
38:46
Speaker 3: whistle-stop tour of The Empathy Gap.
38:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, I opened a door for someone the other day
38:50
Speaker 2: and she just looked at me in disgust and she said,
38:53
Speaker 2: are you patronising me just because I'm a woman? I said, no,
38:56
Speaker 2: I thought you was a bloke. Boom, boom.
39:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, I see. I have had this question before. No
39:04
Speaker 3: one has yet. I've never had a woman say that's
39:08
Speaker 3: so patronising. But as and when it does happen, and
39:10
Speaker 3: if it happens, I will say, I do this for everyone. Genuinely,
39:14
Speaker 3: I open doors. Children, men, people, women. It's just me.
39:17
Speaker 3: I'm courteous to everyone. That's how I would respond to it. Yeah.
39:22
Speaker 2: Then you pat her on the head and you go, there, there,
39:25
Speaker 2: little love.
39:26
Speaker 4: No, folks, I'm being a twat.
39:28
Speaker 3: Sorry.
39:30
Speaker 4: I like it. Oh, you should be in my family, folks,
39:32
Speaker 4: if that upsets you. So, yes. Okay.
39:37
Speaker 2: So to finish off then, Andrew, it's been a fascinating chat.
39:40
Speaker 2: I hope it helps people out there.
39:42
Speaker 1: What.
39:44
Speaker 2: What advice then can we give men who are struggling?
39:48
Speaker 3: You're not, as per the book, you're not alone. You're
39:52
Speaker 3: not stupid. You're not a failure. You haven't failed. Life
39:57
Speaker 3: is quite tough at the moment in terms of social inequality,
40:00
Speaker 3: in terms of cost of living crisis, in terms of multi, multi,
40:04
Speaker 3: multi billionaires who don't pay their taxes. But that's another thing.
40:08
Speaker 3: Life is tough. So understanding that it's not your fault
40:12
Speaker 3: is a good start. But also then understanding, well, are
40:15
Speaker 3: there just some small things I could do? The fact
40:19
Speaker 3: is there are so many men's communities and men out
40:23
Speaker 3: there that genuinely want to help. I would not connect
40:29
Speaker 3: very well with Andy's man club because I just like
40:31
Speaker 3: to play football and be in a pub. So being
40:33
Speaker 3: in a room with a cup of tea and biscuit,
40:35
Speaker 3: it's not really my thing. But There's Man Vs. Fat,
40:38
Speaker 3: the football league for overweight players. They've got 150 teams
40:42
Speaker 3: across Britain. They've got Pork Vale. They've got Man Titty, OBC.
40:47
Speaker 3: Guys connecting, playing football, having an absolute blast. Men's Pie
40:50
Speaker 3: Club in the northern. There's men's communities literally all over
40:54
Speaker 3: the place. So go and look online for a men's
40:58
Speaker 3: community and try and find an offline men's community that
41:01
Speaker 3: just advertise themselves online. Go and get involved. Lend your voice.
41:05
Speaker 3: lend your energy because there are men out there who
41:09
Speaker 3: want to help and there's these groups have exploded across
41:12
Speaker 3: the uk and there's so much variety within these groups
41:15
Speaker 3: it's a joy to see and so don't give up
41:19
Speaker 3: you are absolutely not alone there are people that will
41:23
Speaker 3: support you but People won't magically know that you are
41:28
Speaker 3: struggling if you are because we're all busy with our
41:30
Speaker 3: own crap. So even if it looks like there are
41:33
Speaker 3: signs you might be struggling, you could easily be missed.
41:36
Speaker 3: So the difficult thing is go and ask for help.
41:39
Speaker 3: Make it clear that you are struggling because there are
41:42
Speaker 3: good people in society that want to help. Awesome.
41:45
Speaker 2: Friends at home, I haven't asked you to like and subscribe.
41:49
Speaker 2: I have to say this because if I don't, people
41:52
Speaker 2: forget to subscribe and we stagnate. So if you could
41:55
Speaker 2: like and subscribe, as you probably gathered, you're not really
41:59
Speaker 2: going to, you know, we try and give you conversations
42:02
Speaker 2: on my channel that really can help you further, further yourself.
42:08
Speaker 2: But can't do that, obviously, if you don't subscribe. So
42:10
Speaker 2: if you can do that, that'd be awesome. Andrew, that
42:14
Speaker 2: just leaves me to say thank you, really. And your book,
42:17
Speaker 2: I've been flashing it up on Amazon. We'll put a
42:22
Speaker 2: link just below the video, folks, so you can go
42:25
Speaker 2: and grab yourself a copy. And is there anything you
42:29
Speaker 2: wanted to add, Andrew, before we say our farewells?
42:33
Speaker 3: No, thank you for having me. It's been an absolute
42:35
Speaker 3: pleasure doing your podcast with you. I really enjoyed meeting
42:41
Speaker 3: you when you did my podcast. It's been an absolute
42:43
Speaker 3: honour to be on yours. I hope what we've covered
42:46
Speaker 3: has been of value to those listening. Anybody that wants
42:49
Speaker 3: to buy the book, yeah, massively appreciate that. And any
42:52
Speaker 3: reviews afterwards would be greatly appreciated. But thank you again
42:57
Speaker 3: for having me.
42:58
Speaker 4: You're welcome.
42:59
Speaker 2: Andrew, just stay on the line while I play us
43:01
Speaker 2: out so I can thank you properly.
43:03
Speaker 4: Folks, hope it helped. Much love.
43:06
Speaker 5: Friends, thank you for listening to the Bought the T-shirt podcast.
43:11
Speaker 5: Please like, subscribe and share. And don't forget to follow
43:15
Speaker 5: me on social media. Username, Chris Thrall. Instagram, Chris.Thrall.
43:23
Speaker 4: Thank you.