Latest / The Speak Life Podcast / Speaking Life #4 - Conversations That Matter || SLP688

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Speaking Life #4 - Conversations That Matter || SLP688 · The Speak Life Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_07: A good conversation does not necessarily end up as being like a Jesus conversation.
0:04
SPEAKER_07: Right.
0:05
SPEAKER_07: But every Jesus conversation started as a good conversation.
0:09
SPEAKER_07: You are creating a space for someone to process and think aloud and share.
0:13
SPEAKER_02: Act like a human.
0:15
SPEAKER_02: Like a human.
0:16
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
0:17
SPEAKER_03: I guess there's a fear in me that, oh if I'm gonna go down the path that Naomi's talking about, I'm gonna be uncovering difference at a very deep level.
0:27
SPEAKER_03: And I'm not sure I want to do that.
0:29
SPEAKER_03: So sell that to me.
0:30
SPEAKER_03: Why why should why should I want to go digging for difference?
0:35
SPEAKER_07: It seems so precious nowadays to be able to create a space where difference can go hand in hand with love.
0:44
SPEAKER_03: Hello and welcome to the Speak Life Podcast.
0:46
SPEAKER_03: I'm Glenn Scrivener, and you are Naomi Brem.
0:49
SPEAKER_07: Brame.
0:50
SPEAKER_07: I don't even know how to say my own name.
0:53
SPEAKER_03: It rhymes with name.
0:54
SPEAKER_07: The name is Brahm.
0:56
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I mean if I was actually German, it would probably be like Brem.
0:59
SPEAKER_07: Brem, Brem.
1:00
SPEAKER_07: Maybe.
1:01
SPEAKER_07: Okay.
1:02
SPEAKER_07: Bremm.
1:03
SPEAKER_03: And it means what?
1:05
SPEAKER_07: I don't know.
1:06
SPEAKER_07: Oh, okay.
1:06
SPEAKER_07: I'm sorry.
1:07
SPEAKER_07: What does Scrivener mean?
1:08
SPEAKER_03: Scriven writer.
1:10
SPEAKER_07: Oh.
1:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:11
SPEAKER_03: Scribed like the royal.
1:14
SPEAKER_03: Glenn Scrivener.
1:15
SPEAKER_03: Ditch writer.
1:16
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
1:17
SPEAKER_03: And Emma became a writer when I married her.
1:20
SPEAKER_03: So like all her award-winning books, all those writing awards, they actually redound to my glory because I made her a writer.
1:29
SPEAKER_03: So that's what I tell myself.
1:33
SPEAKER_03: Other views are available.
1:36
SPEAKER_03: So I'm glad you were curious about my name and I was curious about your name.
1:40
SPEAKER_03: Because in this episode, we're going to think about uh conversations, how to host conversations that matter.
1:46
SPEAKER_03: Because we're in a series called Speaking Life, and we're thinking about uh everyday evangelism.
1:52
SPEAKER_03: Uh we a couple of episodes ago talked about how Jesus is Lord is sort of the essence of the seed that we're scattering onto all those different soil types.
2:01
SPEAKER_03: And uh with Thomas, I talked about sowing those seeds into the culture wars.
2:06
SPEAKER_03: It was more like throwing grenades than seeds.
2:11
SPEAKER_03: We had fun and uh yeah, we will we will sort through all the feedback from there.
2:17
SPEAKER_07: I think we could do more of that.
2:19
SPEAKER_07: I think yeah, I mean just listen to it this afternoon and uh yeah.
2:27
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, exactly.
2:27
SPEAKER_07: People should definitely go listen to it.
2:28
SPEAKER_07: I think my favourite and the collarist like seed sewing was Andrew Tate.
2:34
SPEAKER_07: Andrew Tate.
2:35
SPEAKER_07: So yeah, listen out for that one.
2:37
SPEAKER_07: I think I I came away post-Christian.
2:39
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I came away from your short, yeah, it's only three or four minutes chat about Andrew Tate with Thomas.
2:44
SPEAKER_07: Okay.
2:44
SPEAKER_07: Feeling like, wow, Jesus is amazing.
2:46
SPEAKER_07: Okay.
2:47
SPEAKER_07: So that isn't an advert for the the episode.
2:50
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
2:51
SPEAKER_03: Go and find out why.
2:52
SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna go and revisit that episode.
2:55
SPEAKER_03: Remember what we said about um this episode, shift of gears, we're not talking about the culture wars out there.
3:01
SPEAKER_03: We're talking about probably a one-on-one conversation, usually.
3:05
SPEAKER_03: Um, maybe with a friend we've known for years, maybe a family member, maybe a total stranger on the bus.
3:09
SPEAKER_03: But we're gonna talk about uh how we host conversations that go deep and maybe they get into um excellent spiritual territory where we can lift up Jesus and that sort of thing.
3:21
SPEAKER_03: But we thought it's really important not to come in with a prefabricated conversation and to come in with statements that you need to crowbar into the conversation.
3:32
SPEAKER_03: Instead, what is the way into good, deep personal conversation, do you think?
3:37
SPEAKER_07: Well, it's more than just one person speaking, isn't it?
3:40
SPEAKER_07: I we I mean we've we've been thinking about this as a series on speaking life.
3:44
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
3:44
SPEAKER_07: Um but conversations is not just about speaking, is it's about listening.
3:49
SPEAKER_07: Really?
3:50
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
3:50
SPEAKER_07: Okay.
3:51
SPEAKER_02: I'm learning.
3:53
SPEAKER_07: And so that means that it's not just about having some answers or some statements to share, it's it's all about the questions.
4:00
SPEAKER_07: Right.
4:00
SPEAKER_07: What questions are we asking?
4:02
SPEAKER_07: Okay.
4:02
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
4:03
SPEAKER_03: Questions.
4:04
SPEAKER_03: So why are questions so important in a conversation?
4:09
SPEAKER_03: Because there'd be lots of ways of me doing active listening, and I could go, is that so?
4:13
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
4:14
SPEAKER_03: Um what is it in particular about questions that's useful for a good flowing conversation?
4:18
SPEAKER_07: Well, uh, multiple things.
4:20
SPEAKER_07: Uh because in some ways, so conversation just generally should be like a tennis match, you know, where I it's like a little rally, you know, I hit the ball to you and you hit the ball to me.
4:31
SPEAKER_07: Um but so many of our conversations actually are more just like I say a statement, and then you say a statement, and then I say, and then we see maybe how you might respond to my statement, and you know.
4:43
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
4:44
SPEAKER_03: You wait for the other person to finish.
4:46
SPEAKER_03: Like I like you, like we just did there.
4:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
4:48
SPEAKER_03: Exhibit A.
4:49
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
4:49
SPEAKER_07: Um but actually the flow of a conversation works a lot better and is a lot less awkward when you finish whatever it is you're saying and end it with a question to hit it back to the other side of the net for the other person.
5:01
SPEAKER_07: Um I find particularly that is helpful when you start getting into talking about things around faith.
5:07
SPEAKER_07: Because if someone asks you, like, oh, did you um like what did you get up to at the weekend and you're thinking, oh, this is my chance to say, like, oh, I went to church.
5:15
SPEAKER_07: And you say it and then you just leave it hanging in your thing.
5:18
SPEAKER_06: Right, right.
5:18
SPEAKER_07: Oh, yeah, I actually went to church on Sunday.
5:20
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
5:21
SPEAKER_07: Okay, how are they gonna respond?
5:22
SPEAKER_07: Or like you've just kind of spilled your guts and shared something about your testimony, and then you just sort of leave it, and it's like, How are they gonna receive it?
5:29
SPEAKER_07: Um, questions are really helpful for just hitting the ball to the other side of the net.
5:33
SPEAKER_07: Yes.
5:33
SPEAKER_07: Your turn.
5:34
SPEAKER_07: Just it's really clear, less awkward.
5:38
SPEAKER_07: Um but also obviously we want to take lots of our examples from the the Lord himself.
5:46
SPEAKER_03: Yep, okay.
5:47
SPEAKER_07: And so we see Jesus in conversations, yeah.
5:50
SPEAKER_07: He is always asking questions.
5:52
SPEAKER_03: How did he yeah, how does questions?
5:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
5:54
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
5:55
SPEAKER_07: And annoyingly so.
5:56
SPEAKER_07: Like sometimes you're like, Jesus, but but like you have an answer.
5:59
SPEAKER_07: It's not that Jesus doesn't have the answer.
6:01
SPEAKER_07: He's not like a politician who's just kind of avoiding the question by asking another question.
6:05
SPEAKER_07: Right.
6:05
SPEAKER_07: Just gonna dodge it.
6:06
SPEAKER_07: He has the answers.
6:07
SPEAKER_07: He is the answer.
6:07
SPEAKER_07: He is well, yeah.
6:08
SPEAKER_07: Like he doesn't, yeah.
6:09
SPEAKER_07: And so, but he chooses to ask a question often.
6:14
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
6:15
SPEAKER_07: He asks more questions than he is asked.
6:19
SPEAKER_03: In Randy Newman's book, Questioning Evangelism, he's he's I I guess he kind of added it all up, but it's something like 300 questions that he asks of others.
6:28
SPEAKER_03: People ask him 180 questions.
6:30
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
6:31
SPEAKER_03: And Randy Newman says he found three places where Jesus actually answered a question the way it was asked to him.
6:37
SPEAKER_05: Oh, three.
6:38
SPEAKER_03: So out of out of 180 that are coming his way, he only just kind of Most of the time he answers a question with a question.
6:45
SPEAKER_07: And maybe not directly, he might share a story, share a parable, say something else, and then ask a question.
6:51
SPEAKER_05: But yeah.
6:52
SPEAKER_07: And I also think of um I think it's Francis Schaefer who's uh kind of attributed to say it, but if you're given an hour to share the gospel with someone, what would you do?
7:00
SPEAKER_07: And 55 minutes, listen.
7:03
SPEAKER_07: Wow.
7:03
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah.
7:04
SPEAKER_07: Five minutes, say what is say what is a relevant um I guess p piece of the gospel to share.
7:11
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
7:11
SPEAKER_07: Once you actually have spent fifty-five minutes knowing where this person is at.
7:14
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
7:15
SPEAKER_03: Cause I guess so what the what the questions do in a sentence.
7:21
SPEAKER_03: So in an interaction, I if I'm asking a question, I'm I'm interested, I'm inquisitive.
7:28
SPEAKER_03: Um I mean, interestingly, I'm also sort of setting the agenda in some sense.
7:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, definitely.
7:33
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
7:34
SPEAKER_07: The questioner is um, I mean, either you can see it kind of aggressively as like in you know, a questioner is the person that is driving the conversation, or I actually prefer to use the terminology of host.
7:44
SPEAKER_07: The the questioner is the conversation host.
7:46
SPEAKER_07: Right.
7:46
SPEAKER_07: You are you are creating a space for someone to process and think aloud and share.
7:52
SPEAKER_07: And that's that's a that's actually when done well with a good tone, um, a form of hospitality.
7:58
SPEAKER_07: That's how I see it.
7:59
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
7:59
SPEAKER_07: Um and often if you come away from a a conversation thinking, oh, that was a really good conversation, chances are, because we're all narcissists, it's because you had a chance to talk about yourself or think about yourself or discover something about yourself that the other person really listened and you felt listened to.
8:15
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
8:15
SPEAKER_07: And so I find myself thinking, how can I create a space like that for someone else?
8:20
SPEAKER_07: Where maybe I'm asking questions they've never really thought before or they've never been asked before.
8:24
SPEAKER_07: Um but I'm trying to gently create a space for them to process and think aloud, and you just won't get that without asking questions.
8:34
SPEAKER_03: So, what does that mean?
8:35
SPEAKER_03: Does that mean you go straight in for what think ye of Christ?
8:40
SPEAKER_03: What kind of questions are we talking about?
8:42
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I have um I've got some friends that get away with that kind of thing, and to be honest, yeah, yeah, I that's not that's not my vibe.
8:52
SPEAKER_07: Um You get there though.
8:53
SPEAKER_07: You get there.
8:54
SPEAKER_07: Well, yes, yeah.
8:56
SPEAKER_07: I so I a few years ago came across this helpful little kind of uh framework of thinking about how do we get to a Jesus-y conversation.
9:07
SPEAKER_07: Um and uh and my tutor was saying it goes from starting just with a good conversation.
9:14
SPEAKER_07: So you want to go, you want to have some kind of connecting points, you know, you don't want to smell, you don't want to be offensive, you want to smile, look them in the eye.
9:21
SPEAKER_07: Like normal normal, good, nice human interaction.
9:23
SPEAKER_02: Be normal, be normal.
9:24
SPEAKER_02: Be normal.
9:26
SPEAKER_02: Um act like a human, like a human.
9:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
9:32
SPEAKER_07: So a good conversation um can lead to a deep conversation.
9:37
SPEAKER_07: So um perhaps then you're getting more into areas of kind of philosophical thinking or core beliefs or feelings, even just emotion.
9:45
SPEAKER_07: How did you feel about that thing that happened?
9:47
SPEAKER_07: Um getting a little bit deeper.
9:49
SPEAKER_07: Uh deep conversations can then become God conversations.
9:53
SPEAKER_07: So if you're into the realm of talking about beliefs or um particular views, perspectives, philosophies, then if you as a Christian are in that conversation, chances are the topic of God can quite easily come in.
10:06
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
10:06
SPEAKER_07: Um and once you're onto a God conversation in in our kind of, I guess, Christ-centered um thinking, you've not really done, you've not shared the good news of Jesus Christ unless you've had a chance to explicitly talk of God as revealed in Jesus.
10:24
SPEAKER_07: So good, deep God Jesus.
10:27
SPEAKER_07: Okay.
10:27
SPEAKER_07: And there are other different ways you can think about how a conversation might might kind of meander from a nice interaction towards gosh, we're talking about Jesus here.
10:36
SPEAKER_07: Um there are other ways and other other books I've read on that kind of thing.
10:39
SPEAKER_03: And if your friend takes a shortcut to Jesus, oh yeah.
10:42
SPEAKER_07: Well, hey.
10:42
SPEAKER_07: Oh, yeah, exactly.
10:43
SPEAKER_07: Oh, yeah, and I mean, I mean, that journey that can happen very quickly.
10:47
SPEAKER_07: I've had short five-minute bus stop interactions that end up like that.
10:51
SPEAKER_07: Um and long, long, long friendships has taken that's taken like months to get there.
10:57
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
10:57
SPEAKER_07: Um the helpful thing.
10:59
SPEAKER_03: Does the number 57 get to the highest tweet?
11:01
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
11:02
SPEAKER_03: What think ye of Christ?
11:03
SPEAKER_03: It's like something like that.
11:06
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, well, to be fair, I think sometimes this is where I think uh I have an unfair advantage on this whole like public transport, chatting to strangers thing that ends up with a Jesus-y chat.
11:16
SPEAKER_07: The two reasons why I think I have an advantage, which I'm just very conscious of.
11:21
SPEAKER_07: One is that as soon as someone asks me, What do you do as a job, I get to say something along the lines of I work for a Christian charity, we help people to understand more about Jesus.
11:33
SPEAKER_07: We're called speak life.
11:34
SPEAKER_07: And you know, and then if someone wants to, yeah, they can they can press in on that.
11:40
SPEAKER_07: Um the other well, and I I guess going along with that, if someone says, ask me a bit about how long have I lived here, and I was like, Oh, I'm quite new to the area.
11:48
SPEAKER_07: Oh, why did you move?
11:49
SPEAKER_07: I moved for work, what do you do?
11:50
SPEAKER_07: It's good, it I get there quite quickly.
11:52
SPEAKER_07: The other, the other reason why I think I have an unfair advantage is that I'm I'm a uh a smiley, non-threatening female.
12:01
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
12:02
SPEAKER_07: Um and I've thought about this before where I thought, okay, if I was if lots of these conversations were flipped around, and I if if I like I'm like if I was being approached by a smiley older man, I probably wouldn't engage.
12:18
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:21
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah.
12:21
SPEAKER_07: So I'll be able to do that.
12:22
SPEAKER_07: I have to filter your advice.
12:24
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:25
SPEAKER_07: I'm aware everything that's like.
12:26
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, exactly.
12:27
SPEAKER_07: Okay.
12:27
SPEAKER_07: Lots of the conversations or the scenarios I end up in probably because I'm I'm not really a th a threat to anyone in that sense.
12:37
SPEAKER_07: And I'm just quite warm and smiley, and uh that gives me a chance to just be a little bit more piercing.
12:44
SPEAKER_03: Have you noticed that down south though, people don't really talk on public transport as much as a big thing.
12:49
SPEAKER_03: Oh no, I've still had jazz.
12:50
SPEAKER_03: I mean I know you do.
12:51
SPEAKER_07: Well, yeah, I still have judge.
12:54
SPEAKER_03: But I'm always shocked.
12:56
SPEAKER_03: I I'm either I've either gotta be sort of north of the Watford gap or I've got to be in Australia before it's normal to kind of talk on public transport.
13:04
SPEAKER_03: Whereas yeah, down down south in England, it's you know, making eye contact.
13:10
SPEAKER_03: It's it's like a declaration of marriage.
13:11
SPEAKER_07: Well well yeah.
13:14
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
13:14
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, there's a there's a hurriedness, I'd say.
13:16
SPEAKER_07: Well yeah, perhaps less so than like an unfriendliness.
13:19
SPEAKER_07: It's just uh there's like a hurriedness, like when I'm on train to London, commuting time, that kind of thing.
13:25
SPEAKER_07: Um whereas I've been in some fun, slow conversations when I when I was living up in the north.
13:30
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
13:31
SPEAKER_07: Exactly.
13:32
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
13:33
SPEAKER_03: So okay, give me an example of a good.
13:36
SPEAKER_03: So we've got good, deep, God, Jesus.
13:38
SPEAKER_07: How do we how do we understanding or how I've experienced it, and this is all, you know, in some ways I could say warning, this is not biblical truth.
13:46
SPEAKER_07: I'm not about to spout something that is like mandatory or even necessarily true.
13:51
SPEAKER_07: It's just my experience and a helpful framework for thinking about conversation.
13:56
SPEAKER_05: Yep.
13:57
SPEAKER_07: So good, um good conversations, like I said, is just uh like a ple a pleasant interaction where you have connected well with someone and you've not come away thinking, well, that was weird.
14:09
SPEAKER_07: Um and so yeah, that's I mean that that's pretty broad.
14:15
SPEAKER_03: It is pretty broad.
14:16
SPEAKER_03: But but good is s slightly deeper than gosh, the weather it's changing, I guess, and it's a bit more autumnal.
14:24
SPEAKER_03: I like I mean, you can have a sort of fairly I mean you you you're moving warmly into good if you start talking about oh actually I prefer autumn and I like getting the jumpers out, or that kind of thing.
14:35
SPEAKER_03: Um but may maybe in that kind of area you can just be talking about like what is it that you love about that?
14:42
SPEAKER_03: Is that is that a form of curiosity?
14:44
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I to be fair, I think even that kind of question is sometimes getting a bit deeper.
14:49
SPEAKER_07: Um I maybe I'm just defining a good conversation as like not bad in a very British way.
14:56
SPEAKER_07: It's not bad.
14:57
SPEAKER_07: Um and the the reason but the reason you end up with lots of good micro interactions in your day is just by being open to them.
15:08
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
15:09
SPEAKER_07: I think yeah, we shut down lots of um opportunities for connections either with strangers because we're busy and tired and we put our little airpods in on the train and we don't really want to talk to anyone, we don't really do the eye contact with strangers thing.
15:24
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
15:24
SPEAKER_07: Um there's less and less as we as we engage with screens.
15:28
SPEAKER_07: There's less and less normal micro interactions, like connections with people.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:33
SPEAKER_07: Um, but also with people that we know and love.
15:35
SPEAKER_07: Like every time I come home, I have a choice whether I'm gonna go and greet my flatmates and say, Hey guys, how's your day?
15:44
SPEAKER_07: Or whether I'm thinking I'm I'm tired or I need to go process I'm jumping my bag down, going out for a run, or like jumping in the shower or whatever.
15:52
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
15:52
SPEAKER_07: Um I have moments where I'm denying even just a good interaction, which may or may not end up so a good conversation does not necessarily end up as being like a Jesus conversation.
16:05
SPEAKER_07: Right.
16:05
SPEAKER_07: Every Jesus conversation started as a good conversation.
16:09
SPEAKER_03: Right.
16:09
SPEAKER_03: Because if you are closed off to any kind of conversations, there's no way you're gonna get to Jesus.
16:13
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, exactly.
16:14
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
16:14
SPEAKER_03: But you open yourself up to conversation so you don't put the AirPods in.
16:18
SPEAKER_07: Well, sometimes I do.
16:19
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes you do, but but there will there will be times when you're on the bus or wherever and you won't do that because you are now open to conversation.
16:29
SPEAKER_03: It might not go anywhere.
16:31
SPEAKER_03: You're not gonna get the phone out and have a look at it because well, something might come of this.
16:37
SPEAKER_03: Is there something you're telling yourself there for about I don't know, the the possibility for blessing is constant.
16:48
SPEAKER_03: Like like you know, the you're walk you're walking through your day thinking there could be an amazing connection that might happen.
16:57
SPEAKER_07: Probably not, but maybe.
16:59
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, to be honest, there's often moments where so I feel like a lot of the time if I'm travelling the train or um airplane or something, I I just I know these are often moments where God decides.
17:12
SPEAKER_07: It's happened before, it'll probably happen again.
17:14
SPEAKER_07: And so I for me it's actually more like reluctant prayers where I'm like, Lord, I'd really, really like to just read this next Richard Osman book.
17:24
SPEAKER_04: Yes, yeah, yeah.
17:25
SPEAKER_07: Or like I I'm I'm absolutely exhausted.
17:28
SPEAKER_07: But if you want me to, you know, I I think yeah, in some ways it's walking around with a sense of optimism, um, which is probably annoying for some people.
17:37
SPEAKER_07: Um, but in other ways it's walking around with a trust in the sovereignty of God that everywhere I go and like is a place he's appointed that I will be.
17:46
SPEAKER_07: And every person that walks past me may well be someone that I'm supposed to be walking past.
17:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
17:54
SPEAKER_03: And a couple of scriptures that come to mind isn't that like the Acts 17 one always like hits me between the eyes when I read Paul, and it's just it's just like almost it's not the point of the sermon, but he just sort of says um to the the the philosophers in Athens, um, God determined the exact times and places where people should live.
18:12
SPEAKER_03: He did this so that people would reach out for him, though he's not far from in front of us.
18:16
SPEAKER_03: And so therefore, I'm in this location right now, yeah, and this person is in this location right now for an evangelistic purpose.
18:22
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
18:23
SPEAKER_03: So that changes things.
18:25
SPEAKER_03: And then, like the the other verse is is um the good works that God has prepared in advance for us to do, like Ephesians 2 verse 10.
18:32
SPEAKER_03: It's it's sort of there's a kind of a treasure hunt that's happening.
18:36
SPEAKER_03: Like Jesus has sort of laid treasure out there in the world, and you know, you know, try and try and look surprised when it happens.
18:44
SPEAKER_03: But but you you might come across somebody, yeah, who who would be treasure for Jesus, uh if if only he turned.
18:52
SPEAKER_03: But um so you've got that attitude, you're open to having good conversations.
18:58
SPEAKER_03: Um how do you go from good to deep?
19:00
SPEAKER_07: Good to deep.
19:02
SPEAKER_07: Just from experience and kind of reflecting on it, um, I've found that there are a couple of different kinds of questions that help you go from each stage.
19:10
SPEAKER_07: So a good conversation can become deep when you ask open questions.
19:16
SPEAKER_07: So um ones that don't have a yes, no, or one-word answer.
19:22
SPEAKER_07: Um and but instead you're you're trying to ask a ask a question, it's just gonna open open it up.
19:29
SPEAKER_07: You you actually don't know, and you're it's not a lead-in question, so you don't necessarily know what they're going to answer with.
19:34
SPEAKER_07: Um but that's that's the main thing, is not going for one-word yes-no um questions.
19:40
SPEAKER_07: So open, and then the second one being connected.
19:43
SPEAKER_07: And this seems so obvious, but again, like the statement, statement, statement, statement nature of lots of our conversations.
19:50
SPEAKER_07: Once you notice this, it's hard to unsee it.
19:53
SPEAKER_07: That that uh there is a need to ask a connected question to the thing the person just said.
20:01
SPEAKER_07: It sounds so silly and basic.
20:04
SPEAKER_07: Um but it's to say, okay, you someone has just said you know, oh, how's your weekend?
20:10
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I was um went to the park with my kids, whatever.
20:14
SPEAKER_07: Um it's quite natural to then jump and talk about something else, or also then share, oh, and I I did this thing, or dah dah da.
20:23
SPEAKER_07: Um but could you ask a question about their time with their kids?
20:26
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, um, about their relationship with their kids, more about their kids.
20:29
SPEAKER_07: How many kids do you have again?
20:30
SPEAKER_07: Oh you know, that might be a one-word answer.
20:33
SPEAKER_07: But something of that, like you're pressing into what did they just say?
20:36
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
20:37
SPEAKER_07: How can I open up the conversation here?
20:39
SPEAKER_03: Um to be curious, to dig deeper, dig into that.
20:41
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, so you know, when oh, you played hockey, how's the game?
20:46
SPEAKER_07: When when did you first get into hockey?
20:47
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
20:48
SPEAKER_07: Um what do you love about it so much?
20:49
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
20:50
SPEAKER_07: Or that kind of a question.
20:52
SPEAKER_07: It might be that you feel you can ask questions about emotions.
20:55
SPEAKER_07: That's also kind of connected.
20:56
SPEAKER_07: So uh, you know, um yeah, how do I make it?
21:02
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, it sounds a bit silly, doesn't it?
21:04
SPEAKER_03: But but that kind of thing of of um hockey, but but here's what here's what I'd do with hockey, even though I I actually do quite like hockey.
21:11
SPEAKER_03: But but if it was some other if it was some other sport, you don't.
21:14
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
21:14
SPEAKER_03: So this is what you could do.
21:15
SPEAKER_03: Like, you could just say, I've never gotten the thing with hockey.
21:19
SPEAKER_03: Like, why does anyone play that game?
21:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:21
SPEAKER_03: You know, I I I think that yeah.
21:23
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, definitely.
21:25
SPEAKER_03: How does that make you feel is basically another way of saying, you know, why do you love it?
21:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
21:29
SPEAKER_07: Why do you love it?
21:30
SPEAKER_07: What's your favorite thing about it?
21:31
SPEAKER_07: Is there something you really don't like about that?
21:33
SPEAKER_07: Or isn't something, you know?
21:34
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
21:34
SPEAKER_07: Um and I think maybe again, this is like a strange conversation basic tip to say.
21:41
SPEAKER_07: But in all of this, what I'm not suggesting is that as soon as someone has said something, you just like ask a question.
21:47
unknown: Right.
21:48
SPEAKER_07: Um, like you just did there.
21:50
SPEAKER_07: There's still a sense of like we're building a bridge here.
21:52
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
21:52
SPEAKER_07: I'm connecting with what you've just said, sharing something of my experience, but then I'm still gonna end with a question.
21:57
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
21:57
SPEAKER_07: Um that might be really basic, but
22:00
SPEAKER_03: No.
22:01
SPEAKER_03: Well, I think because we bring the same mentality into this conversation as we bring into the gospel presentation conversation.
22:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
22:10
SPEAKER_03: We're like, so what's the right thing to do?
22:13
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
22:13
SPEAKER_03: So if someone comes into this conversation and they're like, okay, so um maybe taking people through three, two, one, you don't necessarily have to go from three to two to one.
22:21
SPEAKER_03: Um fine.
22:22
SPEAKER_03: What do I need to do?
22:23
SPEAKER_03: Oh.
22:23
SPEAKER_03: Gnome's just told me I need to ask this question.
22:26
SPEAKER_03: This question.
22:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
22:27
SPEAKER_03: Um and actually, like, I I wonder whether questions that have one or one-word answers are fine just as long as you follow up on them.
22:34
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, it's like cat person, dog person.
22:37
SPEAKER_03: Oh, but why?
22:37
SPEAKER_03: I don't like cats at all.
22:39
SPEAKER_03: You know.
22:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
22:41
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
22:41
SPEAKER_07: Or, oh, what's the name of your son again?
22:43
SPEAKER_07: Oh, oh, cool.
22:44
SPEAKER_07: How'd you guys come up with that name?
22:45
SPEAKER_07: What was the reason behind that?
22:46
SPEAKER_07: Do you know what I mean?
22:47
SPEAKER_03: I know totally what you mean.
22:49
SPEAKER_03: I think I'm not as curious as I could be in conversations because I have a terrible memory.
22:55
SPEAKER_03: And so part of my brain is thinking, oh, this person probably told me how many children they have.
23:01
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yes.
23:02
SPEAKER_03: And I've forgotten.
23:03
SPEAKER_03: And does it look bad now to admit that I've forgotten?
23:08
SPEAKER_03: And and, you know, and it might only be like a 15% chance that I have asked them before, but there's a 15% chance in here that I'm thinking they're going to be really offended because they actually told me, you know, I actually prayed for their son last time that we made or something like that.
23:23
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
23:24
SPEAKER_07: Okay, a side note on that, and this again might be a bit strange.
23:28
SPEAKER_07: Um, but for someone who values conversations, I have a notes page on my phone with um certain things.
23:35
SPEAKER_07: So it it yeah, particularly for um kind of local shopkeepers, baristas, like people who I have had like micro interactions.
23:44
SPEAKER_07: I've learned their name, I've known something about them.
23:46
SPEAKER_07: Oh, they study in this place.
23:47
SPEAKER_07: Okay.
23:47
SPEAKER_07: I'll just keep a notes page on my phone.
23:49
SPEAKER_07: This is next level.
23:50
SPEAKER_03: This is next level nonsense.
23:51
SPEAKER_07: So then it's like, okay, Nero's, this is the names, these are the things I've learned.
23:54
SPEAKER_07: And and then you can just quickly check it before you see.
23:57
SPEAKER_07: And this might maybe you're not supposed to do this in like pastoral care type situations, but I do that, did that as well when I was working with students.
24:03
SPEAKER_07: Um I have a little notes page for each person I'm meeting regularly with one-to-one.
24:08
SPEAKER_07: I you know you don't have to trust your memory.
24:11
SPEAKER_07: You can you can then refresh yourself.
24:14
SPEAKER_07: That's good through those things again before you meet them.
24:17
SPEAKER_03: And if you still don't have access to that, it's probably worth risking looking forgetful.
24:22
SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, yeah.
24:23
SPEAKER_03: Because that's not the worst thing, is it?
24:24
SPEAKER_03: It's probably yeah, it's probably worse to be non-inquisitive than it is to be forgetful.
24:30
SPEAKER_03: So press on the other.
24:31
SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, and it shows vulnerability.
24:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
24:33
SPEAKER_07: If you say like, I'm so sorry.
24:34
SPEAKER_07: I've like it's when you've interacted with someone multiple times.
24:37
SPEAKER_07: Oh gosh, I did this with the guy at at my local coffee shop the other day, where it was seven in the morning, and I was like, um, no, it's Tom, isn't it?
24:44
SPEAKER_07: He was like, No, it's another three words.
24:48
SPEAKER_07: No, no, it's the three-letter name there.
24:50
SPEAKER_07: And I was like, Oh, okay, so he's there making making my flat white.
24:52
SPEAKER_07: And I was like, Jim.
24:54
SPEAKER_07: No, like, um, John, no.
24:57
SPEAKER_07: Tim, turns out there's a lot.
24:59
SPEAKER_07: Sam, no.
25:00
SPEAKER_07: There are a lot of three letters.
25:01
SPEAKER_07: And he kept you going.
25:02
SPEAKER_07: He kept me going, and then he gave me my cigar.
25:05
SPEAKER_07: It's Joe.
25:07
SPEAKER_07: It's like, I'm so sorry.
25:10
SPEAKER_07: But anyway, um remembered now.
25:13
SPEAKER_07: But I remember now.
25:14
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
25:15
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
25:15
SPEAKER_07: But anyway, so sometimes you can it's m you can be the one that looks silly in a conversation, that's fine.
25:20
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
25:21
SPEAKER_07: You can say, like, I'm so sorry I've come you've can be- you have told me this before, but can you just remind me?
25:25
SPEAKER_03: I think that's what stops us having better, deeper conversations, because we don't want to admit ignorance, whether of the person's personal life or of the topic it's happens.
25:35
SPEAKER_03: Oh, totally.
25:36
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah.
25:40
SPEAKER_07: At Speak Life, we want to help deep thinkers navigate modern life, bringing clarity and joy by seeing everything through the lens of Jesus.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: Yes, we do.
25:49
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25:53
SPEAKER_00: But here on the Speak Life Podcast, we slow down in conversation with each other, guests, and you, our audience.
26:02
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26:05
SPEAKER_07: So drop us a line, podcast at speaklife.org.uk, and give us your NFL stats, your name, a favourite thing, and location.
26:15
SPEAKER_07: So for example.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: Alright, my name's Thomas.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: My favourite dessert is lemon drizzle cake, and I am tuning in from my billiard room.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: Not that I have one in my flat.
26:26
SPEAKER_07: Just a good example.
26:27
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, exactly.
26:29
SPEAKER_07: Um, I'm Naomi, and my favourite animal growing up was a lion.
26:33
SPEAKER_07: I love the Lion King.
26:35
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26:38
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26:44
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26:48
SPEAKER_07: Back to the conversation.
26:53
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
26:53
SPEAKER_07: And that actually does bring me to the next ones.
26:56
SPEAKER_07: So good to deep, I've said asking open and connected questions are good.
27:01
SPEAKER_07: And then deep to God.
27:03
SPEAKER_07: Um this one is a sometimes a little bit easier, I'd say.
27:07
SPEAKER_07: I think good to deep can can be difficult.
27:10
SPEAKER_07: Um the thing is, if someone doesn't want to go deeper, they just will change the conversation.
27:15
SPEAKER_07: I'll take it back to a service level good topic.
27:18
SPEAKER_07: That's fine.
27:18
SPEAKER_07: You let them do that.
27:19
SPEAKER_07: Don't be the person to do that.
27:20
unknown: Good.
27:21
SPEAKER_07: You want to follow the train of thought.
27:22
SPEAKER_07: Keep on a connected open question thing.
27:25
SPEAKER_07: And if they don't want to go there, that's fine, they'll change the conversation.
27:27
SPEAKER_03: Right.
27:28
SPEAKER_03: But you probably aren't going to go there unless you do open that door and have a try the door in there.
27:32
SPEAKER_07: It's a conversation toast, you're like, we are we are creating a place where you can go there if you would like to start asking you questions a lot deeper.
27:38
SPEAKER_03: And it's not the end of the world if they don't redirect.
27:40
SPEAKER_03: No, exactly.
27:41
SPEAKER_03: But if they do.
27:42
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
27:42
SPEAKER_07: Um so then, yeah, deep to God, um, the two that I think of are one is um, so yeah, curious, like I mean, I don't know curious question, I don't know if that is a type of question, but it's what I think where you're thinking, um, I actually don't know about this thing.
27:57
SPEAKER_07: Or I I've got friends who um he's brilliant, wonderful guy, John.
28:03
SPEAKER_07: He sees he just sees the world in such a magical way.
28:06
SPEAKER_07: And he um said to me once that people are like landscapes, and there's always a new detail to see.
28:13
SPEAKER_07: There's always something you haven't noticed before about them, no matter how long you've known them.
28:18
SPEAKER_07: And so this idea that in your conversation, it's an opportunity for me to get to know this person who I might have known for years, but there's still more for me to know.
28:27
SPEAKER_07: And so whether it's about them or about the topic we're talking about, just follow your genuine line of curiosity and also admit ignorance in that.
28:35
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I do that all the time.
28:36
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
28:37
SPEAKER_03: And so how is that getting us to God?
28:39
SPEAKER_03: So yeah.
28:40
SPEAKER_07: Oh, so the reason why that gets to God is especially if it's so I mean, I've got to say I have ignorance by lots of things.
28:48
SPEAKER_07: Um I'm thinking about the other day when uh a friend from my musical theatre group shared about um he knew I was a Christian, he said something about like I would he doesn't really do um kind of churchy things, but he practices Buddhist meditation, and I was like, I know nothing about that.
29:05
SPEAKER_07: So I I'm then like, oh okay, what does that look like for you?
29:09
SPEAKER_07: And he's saying, Oh, each morning I say some mantras, and I'm like, what is a mantra?
29:13
SPEAKER_07: And where did you get it from?
29:15
SPEAKER_07: And like, why do you say that one?
29:17
SPEAKER_07: And yeah, and just like because my tone isn't accusing him of anything, I'm just genuinely I don't know.
29:24
SPEAKER_03: Um ignorance is your friend.
29:26
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, totally.
29:26
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
29:27
SPEAKER_07: So that that one I think yeah, I think curiosity helps get towards God, especially if you're already talking about more philosophical things.
29:36
SPEAKER_07: You ask the kind of why, why, why type questions.
29:39
SPEAKER_03: Um which is great because I I think again what stops us going deeper in conversations is we feel like our ignorance stops us going deeper, whereas it's actually a benefit to be totally ignorant about Buddhism as you go in.
29:52
SPEAKER_03: And maybe a little knowledge um is a barrier because you you sort of think you're oh yes, I know all about that.
29:59
SPEAKER_03: And then as you try and share your little bit of knowledge, they sort of go, Sort of?
30:04
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
30:05
SPEAKER_07: And the actually the ignorance thing is so I think it absolutely is your friend.
30:09
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
30:09
SPEAKER_07: Because I can say to my friend, like, Oh, I've noticed you wear a pink, a pink crystal, what type of crystal is that?
30:14
SPEAKER_07: What do you believe it does?
30:15
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
30:15
SPEAKER_07: But yesterday you wore a green one.
30:17
SPEAKER_07: What is that?
30:17
SPEAKER_07: And like explain to me what that's about.
30:19
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
30:19
SPEAKER_07: Suddenly we're into the whole realm of talking about manifesting and other spirits and oh so yeah, I think I think ignorance is really helpful and having a check.
30:28
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
30:29
SPEAKER_07: Curiosity.
30:30
SPEAKER_07: So the other one for going from deep to God, which I think is helpful too, is what I called um reciprocated questions.
30:36
SPEAKER_07: So this is it, as you think about the tennis game, hitting it over.
30:40
SPEAKER_07: Normally what happens in a conversation is, hey, how are you?
30:42
SPEAKER_07: Oh, I'm good.
30:43
SPEAKER_07: Thanks.
30:44
SPEAKER_07: How are you?
30:44
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I'm good, thanks.
30:45
SPEAKER_07: How's your weekend?
30:47
SPEAKER_07: Oh, how's your weekend?
30:48
SPEAKER_07: How's your Christmas?
30:49
SPEAKER_07: We we just throw the question back.
30:52
SPEAKER_07: For some reason, Christians seem to think you can't do this about religious questions.
30:59
SPEAKER_07: So when someone says, you mentioned you go to church and someone says, Oh, are you religious?
31:04
SPEAKER_07: And you might answer, you might say yes, you might define that and say, Yeah, I'm a Christian, I love Jesus, whatever you want to say to that question.
31:11
SPEAKER_07: But then we kind of leave it.
31:13
SPEAKER_07: It's totally you can just hit the ball back and say, How about you?
31:16
SPEAKER_07: Have you got any particular spiritual beliefs?
31:18
SPEAKER_04: Right.
31:18
SPEAKER_07: Off you go.
31:19
SPEAKER_07: Or if they are, I remember a conversation with um a student, I'll call him Eddie.
31:25
SPEAKER_07: Uh he uh and he was he was kind of asking me all these classic, classic questions.
31:30
SPEAKER_07: Um, and after a while I just thought, oh yeah, questions are fair game.
31:34
SPEAKER_07: He's asked me this stuff, so I'm gonna ask him.
31:36
SPEAKER_07: And so I'm like, Eddie, how about you?
31:38
SPEAKER_07: Like, did you did you grow up as an atheist?
31:41
SPEAKER_07: Oh, and at what point in your teenage life did you decide that God definitely didn't exist for yourself?
31:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
31:46
SPEAKER_03: And um like teenage years, I went into some wilderness wanderings and went to church.
31:51
SPEAKER_03: But anyway, I returned to the atheism of my youth and yeah, yeah.
31:55
SPEAKER_07: So that kind of oh, if you know someone's asked you, um, did you oh did you grow up in a in a Christian family then?
32:02
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
32:02
SPEAKER_07: And you can be you can yes, I did, no, I didn't, whatever.
32:05
SPEAKER_07: How about you?
32:06
SPEAKER_07: Did your did your parents bring you up to have like a kind of atheist perspective?
32:11
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
32:11
SPEAKER_07: Um and at what age did that become real for you?
32:14
SPEAKER_07: Like it's actually quite a funny question.
32:16
SPEAKER_07: It's really interesting.
32:17
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
32:17
SPEAKER_07: Like or or maybe in that conversation with Eddie, I was being a bit like a bit funny, but um it did lead to him realizing he hadn't thought about it for himself at all.
32:28
SPEAKER_07: Right.
32:28
SPEAKER_07: He was a first year student.
32:29
SPEAKER_07: Right.
32:30
SPEAKER_07: And so and I was like, Oh, have you ever like read any of the Bible before?
32:34
SPEAKER_07: Or at least a bit of a life story of Jesus?
32:36
SPEAKER_07: And he's like, No, I haven't.
32:38
SPEAKER_07: And I was like, Well, you at least need to know what he's saying no to.
32:41
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
32:41
SPEAKER_07: I've got a bunch of them in my car, would you like one?
32:43
SPEAKER_07: And he did take one.
32:44
SPEAKER_07: So that was great.
32:46
SPEAKER_03: So what kind of language actually works for that?
32:49
SPEAKER_07: Because I'm okay.
32:51
SPEAKER_03: So in terms of like what spiritual beliefs do you have.
32:53
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, well, spiritual beliefs you got.
32:54
SPEAKER_07: Um, have there been any particular turning points in your life in bringing you to believe what you believe now?
33:00
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
33:00
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
33:01
SPEAKER_07: That kind or particular um like significant people that have that have like formed your understanding of how the world works.
33:07
SPEAKER_03: Understanding of how much.
33:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
33:11
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
33:12
SPEAKER_03: I wonder whether partly partly we've learnt to do evangelism in the wake of Richard Dawkins and in the wake of a whole bunch of new atheism and an assumed secularity where where probably the non-Christian doesn't have the voc vocabulary for it.
33:29
SPEAKER_03: I th I think more and more non-Christians, just by themselves, are having a lot more vocabulary for spiritual beliefs nowadays.
33:35
SPEAKER_03: And that's it's much more a topic of conversation than it used to be.
33:38
SPEAKER_03: And perhaps we're stuck back in kind of new atheism mode in terms of evangelism.
33:44
SPEAKER_03: And so like the non-Christian used to not have a vocabulary for it.
33:48
SPEAKER_03: But also I think some brands of evangelicalism, we have such an allergic reaction to religion that's that we or spiritual practices, or or even that that sort of that sort of language that what I often find is that it's the Christian themselves who doesn't really know how to speak a language about spirituality that makes sense to their non-Christian friends, if that makes sense.
34:10
SPEAKER_03: It's sort of like I would never call myself religious because it's a relationship with Jesus.
34:16
SPEAKER_03: Or I would never talk about a religious experience because I'm I'm a conservative evangelical Anglican there.
34:22
SPEAKER_03: You know, I don't believe in religion.
34:23
SPEAKER_03: I certainly don't believe in experience.
34:26
SPEAKER_03: And so And so I need to perhaps use that language with my friend that I might not use about myself.
34:33
SPEAKER_03: Is that is that sort of like have you ever had a religious experience?
34:37
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's a reasonable.
34:38
SPEAKER_03: If it was asked to me, I wouldn't know how to answer it.
34:40
SPEAKER_03: But oh, okay.
34:42
SPEAKER_03: But my friend might.
34:43
SPEAKER_07: Okay, so you're saying that there might be a f so sometimes we think that the question can only come one way towards us.
34:49
SPEAKER_07: Like someone could only ask me the question of like, oh, but you know, did you did you grow up in a as a in a Christian family?
34:56
SPEAKER_07: Kind of thing.
34:57
SPEAKER_07: But then you're saying there are moments where we might not ask the question because we don't want them to ask it back to us.
35:02
SPEAKER_07: Then if so you're saying if I want if I was gonna ask something about their particular religious experience, but it's not the kind of thing I think I have had.
35:12
SPEAKER_07: Yes.
35:12
SPEAKER_03: Is that what you mean?
35:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and if it's it might not be the kind of language that I use to describe my spirituality.
35:18
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
35:18
SPEAKER_03: And I'm just so used to reinterpreting their question about you know, are you religious?
35:23
SPEAKER_03: And I'm so used to saying, Oh, I'm not religious.
35:25
SPEAKER_03: You've got it all wrong.
35:26
SPEAKER_03: I'm not religious.
35:28
SPEAKER_03: It's about a relationship, baby.
35:30
SPEAKER_03: And they like they're just not they're not conscious of that discussion, debate or anything like that.
35:36
SPEAKER_03: They they they know what you mean when you say, Are you religious?
35:39
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
35:39
SPEAKER_03: Right?
35:40
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah, totally.
35:40
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah.
35:41
SPEAKER_03: They know that they know when you talk about spiritual practice, or do you have a faith?
35:44
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I mean, all these it it is helpful thinking a bit about the vocab that we use just in general, and just having like we talked about with our understanding of sin, the atonement, how we describe Jesus and what he's done, having a broad range of vocab for that is really helpful.
35:58
SPEAKER_07: Uh being adaptable to different types of vocab that other people use when they talk about different things.
36:05
SPEAKER_07: Like it's helpful.
36:06
SPEAKER_07: And so for me to be able to engage with a friend who is like doing Buddhist mantras every morning or um another friend who's dabbling in bits of crystals and manifesting, like I I'm trying to use vocab that is going to build a bridge, even though my belief is completely different to theirs.
36:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:24
SPEAKER_07: So I'm trying to show that I understand it, I'm curious, I'm interested.
36:27
SPEAKER_07: I I kind of I know I believe they're onto something.
36:31
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
36:31
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
36:32
SPEAKER_07: Um by my that that kind of kind of shows as I as I ask the question that I'm like, I'm not doubting your experience, but I I'm interested to know more.
36:39
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
36:39
SPEAKER_07: Um, that's maybe particularly around that.
36:43
SPEAKER_07: But it but this the kind of reciprocated questions and um like curiosity is helpful for other things as well, not just talking about spiritual beliefs, but yeah, yeah.
36:54
SPEAKER_07: It helps you to think like yeah.
36:57
SPEAKER_07: I mean, I I was uh sitting with um a friend that I grew up in youth group who since has transitioned in their um how their gender is presenting, and they I was just like, I don't even know what to do, I don't even know how to have this conversation.
37:13
SPEAKER_07: Or we used to worship together.
37:15
SPEAKER_07: I don't know if you've talked to Jesus in a long time.
37:18
SPEAKER_07: I don't understand anything that's going on.
37:20
SPEAKER_07: But my my decision to have an approach of just genuine, I I'm ignorant about your experience and I am curious.
37:28
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I think really helped.
37:30
SPEAKER_07: Um because I wasn't going in thinking, I need to say these things and I need to correct them on this, I need to point them back to the Lord because they've walked away and instead, I was just like tell me about this.
37:41
SPEAKER_07: Like what was going on, what was your experience of this?
37:45
SPEAKER_07: How does it feel now?
37:46
SPEAKER_07: Like, was is it anything I've said that's been difficult?
37:50
SPEAKER_07: Do you know just having like a genuine conversation?
37:54
SPEAKER_07: That's um, yeah.
37:55
SPEAKER_07: So even when you're not just talking about differences of spiritual beliefs, but differences on different ideologies or politics or types of background, like difference isn't a bad thing as long as you approach it with curiosity.
38:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
38:13
SPEAKER_03: And partly it's about playing a longer game than we might be used to playing in terms of um yeah, if if we feel like we've got four truths that we've that need to be downloaded in the next 15 minutes, you would have one kind of interaction.
38:28
SPEAKER_03: Um if you want to go deep with somebody and share Christ, yeah, um, as opposed to gain a convert, you know, I I think that's that that puts things in a in a different frame.
38:41
SPEAKER_03: And so we're we're we've gone from good to deep to God.
38:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
38:48
SPEAKER_03: Um how are we talking about Jesus specifically in this area?
38:54
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I think once once you are talking about spiritual things and and um belief in God or or not belief in God, um I find the the two questions there that are helpful or approaches.
39:07
SPEAKER_07: One is um clarifying questions.
39:11
SPEAKER_07: Because and I this is where I find one of your your questions really helpful of well, what's the God that you that you believe in, or what God don't you believe in?
39:18
SPEAKER_07: That kind of thing.
39:19
SPEAKER_07: Of it um just to clarify when we sometimes vocabulary.
39:25
SPEAKER_07: So we're now in the realm of talking about spiritual things.
39:28
SPEAKER_07: When you use this word, what does that mean for you?
39:31
SPEAKER_07: Or like what do you when I say the word whatever it might be?
39:34
SPEAKER_07: In fact, when I was doing apologetics training, one of my um one of my homeworks, and this was great, I recommend it to anyone, um, was to come up with 10 words that are like Christian-y jargony words, but that you think are actually quite necessary for sharing the gospel.
39:52
SPEAKER_02: Oh, good, yeah, yeah.
39:53
SPEAKER_07: And then go to a friend that you know and trust but who it doesn't share your faith and ask them to define these words.
39:58
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
39:59
SPEAKER_07: And that was really helpful.
40:01
SPEAKER_07: So, like, what would what did my friend Peter think of the word justification or grace or faith um or love?
40:08
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
40:09
SPEAKER_07: And just going through like, oh, this is what he thinks what he thinks sin is, or this is what he thinks justice looks like, or that kind of thing.
40:17
SPEAKER_07: Very interesting.
40:18
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
40:18
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
40:19
SPEAKER_03: Have you ever done a thing?
40:20
SPEAKER_03: Um a friend of mine does this quite a bit, and he sort of says, like, if he was talking to a Buddhist person, he'll kind of say, Now, if you were to convert me to Buddha, what what would I need to do to be a Buddhist like you are?
40:34
SPEAKER_03: Like, just tell me that thing.
40:36
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
40:37
SPEAKER_03: And then they sort of say, and and he he says more often than not, they will say, and what would I need to tell you?
40:45
SPEAKER_03: That's so funny.
40:46
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, okay.
40:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
40:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
40:48
SPEAKER_03: I'm only with curious.
40:49
SPEAKER_07: And that and again, that is interesting.
40:50
SPEAKER_07: I think we do need to be cautious.
40:52
SPEAKER_07: Like, I approach conversations with trying to be open that this could go any direction, and I'm not really in control.
41:01
SPEAKER_07: I am in some ways guiding it as the questioner, but it could go off the rails, and that's fine.
41:05
SPEAKER_07: Um I'm sometimes cautious of verging on manipulation.
41:12
SPEAKER_07: If you're like, I'm gonna ask this question because then they might ask it back to me.
41:16
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
41:17
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
41:17
SPEAKER_07: Sometimes I think that's fine, and sometimes sometimes it's a bit but even if they don't say, and how would I become a Christian?
41:23
SPEAKER_03: It's like I I think that's a very interesting way of exploring what what your worldview is.
41:29
SPEAKER_03: Like if I was to jump over to your side of things, yeah, what would I what would I need to do?
41:34
SPEAKER_03: How would I need to live from then on?
41:36
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah.
41:37
SPEAKER_07: I mean, sometimes if there's an assumption that we're speaking the same language, then you're not really draining draining down into what does this person actually believe believe about this thing?
41:45
SPEAKER_07: They think we have common ground here, but the more that I get them to just crystallise what did they mean when they say that, or how is it that they they pray or um they they've vaguely mentioned finding church difficult in the past, can I can I gently open that up again from the previous conversation?
42:02
SPEAKER_07: And do you mind me asking exactly like what happens?
42:06
SPEAKER_07: You don't have to share, but um I would love to hear some more something of that of like then you know a bit more about how does the Jesus I know and love not quite map onto what they think he's like.
42:18
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
42:18
SPEAKER_07: That's more what I'm looking for.
42:19
SPEAKER_07: So the second thing, one is clarify and one is compare.
42:22
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
42:22
SPEAKER_07: And I find that helpful for like oh, that's what you think God is like.
42:28
SPEAKER_07: Oh, that's so interesting.
42:29
SPEAKER_07: You think that exactly there's a story in the Bible where Jesus says this, and that has changed my understanding of what God is like.
42:35
SPEAKER_07: Oh, it's yeah, yeah.
42:35
SPEAKER_07: It it gives you an a way in either to say, Oh, I'm totally with you on that because um, yeah, I see this thing in my belief of who Jesus is as well, or to say, Yes.
42:50
SPEAKER_07: Now that we've drilled down and realised we actually are different, it was a superficial agreement.
42:54
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
42:55
SPEAKER_07: We've clarified it, we've realized we're in different positions.
42:57
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
42:57
SPEAKER_07: Then you can say a bit of a, oh, I see how you've got there, da da da.
43:01
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
43:01
SPEAKER_07: But actually the Jesus I see is completely different.
43:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
43:05
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
43:05
SPEAKER_03: And and so but what's good about that as well is I think one of the things that stops me from having conversations, like A, I don't want to admit forgetfulness or ignorance.
43:15
SPEAKER_03: I also um I don't want to uncover difference.
43:19
SPEAKER_03: Like there's a part of me that was I'm just happy talking about October weather, thanks very much.
43:25
unknown: You know.
43:26
SPEAKER_03: Or disagreeing about hockey because that doesn't matter.
43:29
SPEAKER_03: But I guess there's a fear in me that oh, if I'm gonna go down the path that Naomi's talking about, I'm gonna be uncovering difference at a very deep level.
43:41
SPEAKER_03: And I'm not sure I want to do that.
43:43
SPEAKER_03: So sell that to me.
43:44
SPEAKER_03: Why why should why should I want to go digging for difference?
43:51
SPEAKER_07: Because Jesus is always better.
43:54
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
43:55
SPEAKER_07: Um I think yeah, yeah.
44:00
SPEAKER_07: I mean, I I'm thinking of a a g uh another train conversation I had.
44:03
SPEAKER_07: We live near Gatwick Airport down here, and there was a girl who sat next to me with a massive suitcase on our way to the airport.
44:10
SPEAKER_07: Um I think we our good conversation started just because I lowered the little thing, you know, the little tiny desk on the little tray.
44:19
SPEAKER_07: And it did a proper and so we just had like a little giggle about that.
44:24
SPEAKER_07: Had a little giggle, I put my like diary on it or something, and she was like, Oh, I love your your diary.
44:29
SPEAKER_07: And anyway, we started chatting.
44:30
SPEAKER_07: Um so she started the conversation, but uh it I then just asked her, you know, where's she flying to?
44:37
SPEAKER_07: And she was going to Amsterdam's going to celebrate the Lunar New Year with her family.
44:41
SPEAKER_07: And so I was like, Oh wow, again, ignorance.
44:44
SPEAKER_07: I was like, Oh, what does that look like to celebrate it um in Amsterdam?
44:50
SPEAKER_07: Um and uh and we were able to get into it a bit more, and I was asking, like, I think I said something like, Oh, is it the year of the snake this year?
44:59
SPEAKER_07: I think it might have been my friend told me it was the dragon last year.
45:01
SPEAKER_07: Is it the snake that she's like, yeah, it is.
45:03
SPEAKER_07: And I said, Oh, in your so in your celebrations and in your um beliefs, is this are the snake and the dragon like good?
45:10
SPEAKER_07: Because I think they are being celebrated as like the dragon is like really good.
45:14
SPEAKER_07: Oh, they're good, oh yeah, they are.
45:16
SPEAKER_07: Oh, that's so interesting.
45:17
SPEAKER_07: Because in my tradition, um, from like the Hebrew scriptures, actually the snake and the dragon represent evil.
45:24
SPEAKER_07: I wonder how we've gotten in these different places.
45:26
SPEAKER_07: So then we end we ended up still talking about that.
45:29
SPEAKER_07: Um, and I mean we we c I was gonna say we came up for air in one moment, I brought it back up to the surface because I was like, this whole train carriage is hearing us talk about the nature of the devil.
45:39
SPEAKER_07: And and so I was then like, oh gosh.
45:41
SPEAKER_07: So then it was about half an hour into the conversation.
45:44
SPEAKER_07: I was like, I actually don't even know your name.
45:47
SPEAKER_07: We just came up for air and it's like, oh okay, yeah, nice to meet you, Anya, I'm Naomi.
45:52
SPEAKER_07: Um, and then we back went back down in again, and we but we were able find just I I unearthed that difference, yeah.
46:00
SPEAKER_07: Um, but we then had a lot of similarity because she explained that she saw evil as being something that exists outside of us but also inside us.
46:08
SPEAKER_07: And I was like, me too, 100%.
46:11
SPEAKER_07: We are we're on the same page here, and what does your how does your kind of worldview or beliefs like in the stories you believe, how does how does that get solved?
46:23
SPEAKER_07: And and so just before she left the train to go off to Gawick, I was able to to talk a bit about the genius of the cross is that it's um like God himself, the source of all good, comes and takes on the evil that is in us, but also defeats the devil himself.
46:40
SPEAKER_07: Wow, and that in him he's he's solving the problem of both.
46:44
SPEAKER_07: Wow.
46:45
SPEAKER_07: Wow.
46:45
SPEAKER_07: And I was and after that conversation, I was like, wow, this thing works, like unearth the difference.
46:51
SPEAKER_07: Unearth the difference.
46:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
46:53
SPEAKER_03: Because Jesus is enough to yeah, Jesus is better.
46:58
SPEAKER_03: And yeah, that's such a that's such a good question to like as a as a pebble in her shoe as she goes away.
47:04
SPEAKER_03: How does that get solved?
47:06
SPEAKER_03: What do you mean solved?
47:07
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
47:08
SPEAKER_03: Like, oh, there is a solution, it's Jesus.
47:10
SPEAKER_03: I think the uh the other thing I noticed from that is like you talk about in my tradition, which again I think in pop evangelicalism, we're like, oh, I don't believe in tradition, I don't believe in religion, don't believe in spiritual practices, don't believe in the like well no, you like it is in your tradition.
47:28
SPEAKER_03: And we've we've kind of robbed ourselves of the kind of vocabulary that actually makes sense to your friend on the train.
47:38
SPEAKER_00: You're listening to episode four in our autumn series on speaking life, thinking about sharing Jesus in everyday situations.
47:45
SPEAKER_07: We're gonna round off our mini-series with a QA.
47:49
SPEAKER_00: So, we need some questions.
47:51
SPEAKER_07: Send us questions about things we said, things we haven't said, things we shouldn't have said.
47:57
SPEAKER_07: Thomas, how can they send in their questions?
47:59
SPEAKER_00: Well, you can email podcast at speaklife.org.uk, leave a comment on Spotify, or drop us a message on Instagram.
48:07
SPEAKER_07: And if you could do that by the 15th of November 2026, that would be ideal.
48:11
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and Glenn, Naomi, and myself will answer as many as we can.
48:16
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, send us your hard questions and I'll just give them to Thomas.
48:20
SPEAKER_00: And I'll just give them to Glenn.
48:21
SPEAKER_07: Sounds like a plan.
48:24
SPEAKER_00: See you there.
48:24
SPEAKER_07: Back to the conversation.
48:29
SPEAKER_07: I think my probably big recommendation is go listen to Elizabeth Oldfield.
48:35
SPEAKER_07: The vocabulary she uses is really helpful for understanding.
48:40
SPEAKER_07: Oh no, I get like I'm saying the same thing.
48:43
SPEAKER_07: I I can just use different words.
48:45
SPEAKER_07: So in that example, I didn't I could have said, Oh, well, I'm a Christian and in the Bible it says.
48:52
SPEAKER_03: Yes, right.
48:53
SPEAKER_07: But I said that exact same thing by saying, in my tradition, we um in the Hebrew scriptures, wow, it talks about how the how like from thousands of years ago it talks about how um the dragon and the snake are images of actually evil.
49:07
SPEAKER_07: And so I was able to continue the line of thought that we we were on common ground talking about snakes and dragons, and I didn't want to freak her out and by starting saying like because I didn't know what her views on Christianity in general or the Bible was in general, but I can get to the same place by using tradition and scripture and Hebrew as like other words.
49:30
SPEAKER_03: I love that because because by by using Hebrew tradition, it's it's not because you're afraid of difference, it's that you're you want to name the the very important difference that's worth naming.
49:41
SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, getting hung up on the vocabulary over here.
49:44
SPEAKER_07: And I'm reiterating that we're right right now, we are two girl, we were two girls in our twenties on the train to Gatwick talking about th these thousands of years old traditions.
49:53
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
49:54
SPEAKER_07: Like that was another connecting point.
49:55
SPEAKER_07: Yes.
49:56
SPEAKER_04: Of like Yes.
49:58
SPEAKER_07: We're kind of talking about m mythologies and things that have been passed down through hundreds and hundreds of years.
50:04
SPEAKER_03: And you're owning the fact that you also navigate uh weird, wonderful, mysterious worlds according to a tradition.
50:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
50:13
SPEAKER_03: So you're you're you're on the same level as her in in in that like very important regard.
50:20
SPEAKER_03: And you're you're very happily going to use that same language with her in order to then say that but actually that what what is at the heart of our traditions is what's different rather than what we call them.
50:31
SPEAKER_07: Yes.
50:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
50:33
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
50:33
SPEAKER_07: So that and that is helpful is to think, um, I don't want to be unearthing difference where it's not actually the point of I I want to be able I want to find where misunderstanding or like a kind of a wrong view of Jesus is.
50:53
SPEAKER_07: I don't really like there might be times where it's right to address a misunderstanding in the nature of the church or um like Christians more with Christianity more generally or the history of Christianity.
51:06
SPEAKER_07: But sometimes I think you can do that by your your own tone to be like I, in my generous and gentle tone, am hopefully undoing some of your misunderstandings about what evangelical Christians might be like.
51:21
SPEAKER_07: Yes.
51:21
SPEAKER_07: So I don't have to talk about it, I can just do it.
51:23
SPEAKER_07: Yes.
51:23
SPEAKER_07: And then we can talk about it.
51:25
SPEAKER_03: Because that's the other way that you do it.
51:27
SPEAKER_03: And I think I think in your musical theatre group, you you shared a story about the ways in which because you were already known and accepted in that group, yeah.
51:38
SPEAKER_03: You are you will just own language like, I'm an evangelical Christian.
51:43
SPEAKER_03: Right.
51:43
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I shocked myself sitting in the pub.
51:46
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, someone and someone asked me, we were talking about spiritual beliefs, someone said they went to a Quaker church and and they and then they asked me, said, like, uh, what flavour are you?
51:56
SPEAKER_07: And I was like, oh.
51:58
SPEAKER_03: Right.
51:59
SPEAKER_03: Do you mean like in offensive late and so everything in the flesh at that point was because you go to an Anglican church at the moment.
52:05
SPEAKER_03: So you could just say, oh, just bulk standard Anglican.
52:08
SPEAKER_03: You know, just Church of England.
52:09
SPEAKER_03: Church of England.
52:10
SPEAKER_03: For some reason.
52:11
SPEAKER_03: Inoffensive Church of England.
52:13
SPEAKER_03: You went for evangelic.
52:14
SPEAKER_07: I'm an evangelical Christian.
52:16
SPEAKER_03: You know those Trump voters in America like them.
52:19
SPEAKER_07: I know, I know.
52:20
SPEAKER_07: And I was sitting there, I was sitting there, you know, and you can imagine the kinds of people that are in a theater group.
52:27
SPEAKER_07: And I'm sitting there on this table, and for some reason I decided to say that, but it's because I wanted to kind of reclaim it.
52:33
SPEAKER_07: I would and so I was like, they trust me, and I'm going to define what I mean.
52:37
SPEAKER_07: So I said, I said, I'm an evangelical, evangelical Christian.
52:41
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
52:41
SPEAKER_07: Um, and what that means is that I think the Bible is the most um compelling story of the that makes sense of the beauty and the brokenness of human existence, and I build my life on it.
52:54
unknown: Yeah.
52:55
SPEAKER_07: I said I think I said those words almost exactly.
52:57
SPEAKER_07: And they're all just like, oh yeah, yeah.
52:58
SPEAKER_07: Okay.
52:58
SPEAKER_07: Makes sense.
52:59
SPEAKER_07: She talks about the Bible all the time.
53:00
SPEAKER_07: So it's like, yeah, makes sense.
53:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
53:02
SPEAKER_03: Because they know and love you and have accepted you already.
53:05
SPEAKER_03: But interestingly, you're not going to trade on that so as to simply have a smooth friction, frictionless interaction.
53:13
SPEAKER_03: Like, like it seems to me like you're very convinced of the goodness of difference at times, the good the goodness of a little asteroid that falls on the playground.
53:23
SPEAKER_03: So you can kind of let's discuss this thing, shall we?
53:25
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah.
53:27
SPEAKER_07: I think maybe it's because it seems so precious nowadays to have been able to create a space, again, in this kind of thinking about a conversation like a space you're hosting, to be able to create a space where difference can go hand in hand with love.
53:42
SPEAKER_07: Like to be like, I we can actually be still part of the same community and have really big differences in our fundamental understanding of who we are and how the world works.
53:52
SPEAKER_07: That is that feels increasingly rare.
53:54
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
53:55
SPEAKER_07: Um and so it's yeah, it feels like a precious thing.
53:59
SPEAKER_07: And I think other people know that as well.
54:03
SPEAKER_03: Let's um finish by thinking about a f a few different um questions that I I've loved thinking about these from Jesus.
54:11
SPEAKER_03: So a friend of mine, Trevan Wax, is is working on a book at the moment about seven questions that Jesus asks, right?
54:18
SPEAKER_03: And uh isn't this amazing?
54:21
SPEAKER_03: So what did we say?
54:22
SPEAKER_03: So 300 questions that he asks, 180 cent his way, he answers three of them.
54:26
SPEAKER_03: He asks That's Matt.
54:28
SPEAKER_03: He asks 300 of them.
54:30
SPEAKER_03: Here are seven.
54:31
SPEAKER_03: He says, What are you looking for?
54:34
SPEAKER_03: I I love that.
54:35
SPEAKER_03: Like whenever he says, you know, um, what do you want me to do for you?
54:40
SPEAKER_03: Like, what do you want?
54:41
SPEAKER_03: Is kind of a that's a that's a very deep going to the heart.
54:44
SPEAKER_03: Why are you afraid?
54:46
SPEAKER_03: Why do you call me Lord?
54:48
SPEAKER_03: Do you see this woman?
54:50
SPEAKER_03: Who do you say that I am?
54:52
SPEAKER_03: Do you love me?
54:53
SPEAKER_03: Do you want to be healed?
54:55
SPEAKER_02: It's like the Jesus knows how to ask questions.
54:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
55:00
SPEAKER_03: What leaves out to you from there about the way that Jesus does conversation, the way that he asks questions?
55:08
SPEAKER_07: The funny thing is lots of these questions some of them could have yes-no answers.
55:15
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
55:16
SPEAKER_07: But Jesus is he is like um he I think is raising tensions and in like he kind of is putting his finger on difficulties in some of them, isn't it?
55:31
SPEAKER_07: Yes.
55:32
SPEAKER_07: Like, do you want to be healed?
55:35
SPEAKER_07: As long as he's asking the question that you're like, it's he's it's instead of making an assumption, you know?
55:41
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
55:41
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
55:42
SPEAKER_07: And you're like, but okay, there's something deeper going on here.
55:45
SPEAKER_03: And there's a there's a why question that the the person who is seeking healing might have never asked that question about themselves.
55:55
SPEAKER_03: It's sort of, yeah.
55:56
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
55:57
SPEAKER_03: Going to the heart of a person in a way that they haven't thought to they haven't thought to to plumb those depths.
56:04
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
56:04
SPEAKER_03: Um, I mean you need to know what you're doing when you when you when you ask things like that.
56:09
SPEAKER_03: But but I I do find though the why questions and what do you love about that and what motivates you to do this.
56:15
SPEAKER_03: I think I think that that helps you go deep.
56:17
SPEAKER_03: I guess that helps you go from the from the deep and hopefully to the God God kind of conversations.
56:22
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
56:22
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
56:22
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
56:23
SPEAKER_07: Why questions are good.
56:24
SPEAKER_07: And I mean, conversations don't always go well.
56:28
SPEAKER_04: That's good to say.
56:29
SPEAKER_07: I feel like, yeah, I feel like.
56:31
SPEAKER_07: And and and also and when someone turns it around and puts it on you and is asking you more questions about your faith or and they sometimes when someone else is ignorant and they're asking curious questions, it makes you realise how little you know about your own beliefs.
56:46
SPEAKER_03: And it's totally fine to say I don't know, or to and to answer a question with a question, which is like, um, oh, is why is that question important to you?
57:01
SPEAKER_03: Like try not to answer it defensively, but but but why?
57:04
SPEAKER_03: Um I mean, especially if it's something like suffering, or you know, like like um what kind of suffering question is this is what I'm thinking behind my.
57:14
SPEAKER_07: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
57:16
SPEAKER_07: You're probably behind you want to be thinking, where is this question coming from?
57:18
SPEAKER_07: But you can't ask that question.
57:20
SPEAKER_07: You can't say to someone, oh, where is that question coming from?
57:22
SPEAKER_07: You can't re like you Yeah.
57:24
SPEAKER_07: Uh but you could give options.
57:26
SPEAKER_07: You could say, like, okay, when you when you're thinking about suffering, what do you picture?
57:31
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
57:32
SPEAKER_07: Um yeah.
57:33
SPEAKER_07: Or that kind of yeah, that kind of thing.
57:35
SPEAKER_07: Or if you like why why do you think if if you if you believed there was a good God behind everything, who had the power to change things and who loved us, why do you think you would allow suffering?
57:47
SPEAKER_05: Mm-hmm.
57:48
SPEAKER_07: Like kind some sometimes flipping it around saying, like, if you had to give an answer to that, what would you say?
57:51
SPEAKER_07: I would like I will answer, but I would love to know what do you think?
57:55
SPEAKER_07: Yes, yes.
57:56
SPEAKER_03: Okay, fine.
57:56
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
57:57
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
57:58
SPEAKER_03: And so yeah, and so I I'll often, like, on that very question, kind of say, Oh man, I I hate hearing bad answers to that question.
58:05
SPEAKER_03: Um, but so often a bad answer is is actually a good answer to the um to the wrong question, or you know, trying to answer the wrong part of the question that's being asked.
58:15
SPEAKER_03: So are you asking this because of personal experience of suffering, because of a philosophical kind of like conflict of omnipotence and all that sort of thing, and and try and delve in there?
58:27
SPEAKER_07: I just yeah, I still think I would ask slightly more I would ask that but in a more subtle way.
58:34
SPEAKER_07: I either you'll probably know because you'll know the person, or I would probably say, yeah, what what images come to mind when you think of suffering?
58:42
SPEAKER_07: Because if they then say like, I don't know, if they then say my system.
58:48
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
58:50
SPEAKER_07: Or they'll say a string of things they've just seen on the news, or like that gives more of a sense.
58:55
SPEAKER_04: Yes, yeah, that's true.
58:57
SPEAKER_03: And also there's a conviction that that whatever question you're being asked, if it does get into this sort of thing, and and it's kind of this is again what stops us going deep in conversations because we imagine it'll go here.
59:12
SPEAKER_05: And actually, only a minority of times does it go to these thorny, these thorny apologetic kind of questions.
59:18
SPEAKER_03: I think I think that's in the back of people's minds.
59:20
SPEAKER_03: So um we'll we'll address sort of apologetics in a in a future episode, but um I think it's it's just worth knowing on this question of of of questions that whatever question is being asked of you, you can have a go at a terrible answer to it.
59:36
SPEAKER_03: Um But there is a reciprocation that can happen, and you you can sort of say, and on your view, like why does bad stuff happen?
59:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like there's always there's always a version of the question that you've answered.
59:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
59:49
SPEAKER_03: That your friends need to have a go at.
59:51
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, definitely.
59:52
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
59:52
SPEAKER_07: Questions are fair game.
59:53
SPEAKER_07: Topics are fair game.
59:55
SPEAKER_07: Yes.
59:55
SPEAKER_07: So yeah, I'll come back.
59:58
SPEAKER_07: There are times where I find this, like my you know, I'm wanting to go deeper in a conversation, and but that's particularly hard.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_07: Like there are friends who have who I know really well and have walked away from Jesus, and it feels really hard to do this kind of thing with them because it's like, but I kind of know the answers, or I and I this is still a sore point for you or for us in a conversation, and that's that's always really difficult.
1:00:24
SPEAKER_07: Um it's hard with I can think of a couple of friends in particular who just really, really are closed.
1:00:30
SPEAKER_07: Like they're they have a real you know, shut door of their heart, they they're just not interested at all.
1:00:35
SPEAKER_07: There are times where it's like you just get like a blank, a blank stare, or um, they always deflect.
1:00:43
SPEAKER_07: Or um or annoyingly, they just keep thinking that you're just talking about saying, Oh no, it's the same thing, really, isn't it?
1:00:48
SPEAKER_07: It's like, no, it's not really the same thing, or oh, that's nice for you.
1:00:51
SPEAKER_07: It's like, right, no, but it's great for everybody.
1:00:53
SPEAKER_07: Like there are there are moments where oh, just it, yeah, it's not great and it doesn't go well, and and a couple of other areas where I find it difficult.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_07: One is one can be if I'm speaking to someone from a different culture, um, because I don't know whether my questioning comes across as dishonour or honour.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_07: So in our, I'd say for us, often like if you're inquisitive and asking someone questions, like that's a good thing and shows you're interested.
1:01:26
SPEAKER_07: But sometimes I'm like, for me as a woman to look someone in the eyes and ask questions might not be a way to honour um in a different culture.
1:01:35
SPEAKER_05: Yep.
1:01:35
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
1:01:36
SPEAKER_07: And so I'm conscious of that kind of thing.
1:01:38
SPEAKER_07: Um, or I'm conscious of a similar in honour shame cultures where they they might just agree with whatever you're saying for the sake of honour.
1:01:46
SPEAKER_07: Yes.
1:01:47
SPEAKER_07: And so you might be like, Well, yeah, we had a great conversation.
1:01:49
SPEAKER_07: They said, you know, and they agreed and they took and they took a gospel and they said um it's actually really hard to know if that was just because of their um desire to make you feel honored.
1:02:00
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:02:01
SPEAKER_07: Oh, so that's hard.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_07: And then the other thing where I find it hard, again, I am able to have lots of conversations like this with strangers because I'm a non a non-threatening young woman.
1:02:11
SPEAKER_07: Um, there are many times where I've had to be like, no, I'm not going to give you my number, but we'd like to give you a gospel.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_07: Like there, I I like that is hard as well, is trying to navigate the like I want to connect with anyone who the Lord brings across my path.
1:02:26
SPEAKER_07: But sometimes I actually do have to be really careful because they are getting the wrong idea from my interest and my smiles and my like.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_07: Oh, no, tell me more about that.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_07: So um yeah.
1:02:42
SPEAKER_03: But it's worth it, would you say?
1:02:43
SPEAKER_03: Because it we've we've named a few risks.
1:02:45
SPEAKER_03: Um, some of the risks are I will look ignorant at times, I will look forgetful at times, I will uncover difference that I don't know what to do with, I might come across as rude, I might come across as overly friendly.
1:02:58
SPEAKER_03: Flirtatious.
1:03:00
SPEAKER_03: Um is it worth it?
1:03:02
SPEAKER_07: Oh yeah.
1:03:04
SPEAKER_07: Well, I'd say yeah.
1:03:06
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I think I think so.
1:03:08
SPEAKER_07: And I think a couple other things I'd say on this.
1:03:10
SPEAKER_07: One is that it's not just for extroverts.
1:03:12
SPEAKER_07: Um I think you know, we have uh three out of four of the same letters on our Myers Briggs.
1:03:19
SPEAKER_03: Myers Briggs, yes.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_07: So in some ways it's like, oh great, yep, here are the the ENFs talking about You've got the J.
1:03:26
SPEAKER_03: I wish I had J.
1:03:29
SPEAKER_07: Talking about these extroverted things they do, like talking to strangers.
1:03:33
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
1:03:34
SPEAKER_07: Um but I don't think this is just for introverts.
1:03:37
SPEAKER_03: Um and especially because I think the best kind of people to reach other introverts are other introverts.
1:03:43
SPEAKER_03: And so um unless unless you spend your entire time as an introvert staring at your shoes.
1:03:49
SPEAKER_03: Um if you're going to draw near to introverts and if there is any hope for non-Christian introverts in the world might well be that it's other introverts that are gonna reach them in these sorts of ways.
1:03:59
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
1:04:00
SPEAKER_07: And the other thing is how you ask is really important.
1:04:02
SPEAKER_07: You can say the exact same words with very different tone.
1:04:05
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
1:04:06
SPEAKER_07: I think about that with Jesus' questions, actually.
1:04:07
SPEAKER_07: I wonder what um what's his friend?
1:04:09
SPEAKER_07: What was your friend's name?
1:04:11
SPEAKER_02: Um oh Trevan.
1:04:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:04:13
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
1:04:13
SPEAKER_07: I wonder what he's gonna say if he's gonna mention the tone, because Yeah, yeah.
1:04:17
SPEAKER_02: What are you looking for?
1:04:18
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
1:04:19
SPEAKER_07: Even Jesus' question on the boat in the storm, where is your faith?
1:04:24
SPEAKER_07: Um could be Where's your faith?
1:04:28
SPEAKER_07: Or it could be, guys, where is your faith?
1:04:31
SPEAKER_03: And also, I mean, Jesus doesn't if you if you take his words to the Samaritan woman in John chapter four, I mean it it sounds so clunky, like a you know, gear change, you know.
1:04:42
SPEAKER_03: If you knew the gift of God and who it is who's asking you for water, you've asked him and he would have given you living water.
1:04:49
SPEAKER_03: She just asked you for a drink, Jesus.
1:04:50
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:04:53
SPEAKER_03: I have water to drink that you know nothing of.
1:04:55
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
1:04:56
SPEAKER_03: You know, and actually it's the like the goal is not to be smooth.
1:05:01
SPEAKER_03: Like the like the goal is not to be Yeah, have this frictionless encounter that's just like incredibly polished.
1:05:10
SPEAKER_03: You know, I like I I think like I think he goes direct and he shocks people, and he's certainly shocked the Samaritan.
1:05:18
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah, that's true.
1:05:19
SPEAKER_07: But we all know what it's like to be on the receiving end of like slightly obnoxious questioning.
1:05:24
SPEAKER_07: Maybe I say we all do, maybe we don't all, but um question like you would like to be questioned.
1:05:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:05:31
SPEAKER_03: Ah, nice.
1:05:32
SPEAKER_03: A golden rule for questioners.
1:05:36
SPEAKER_03: Very good.
1:05:36
SPEAKER_03: Well, we're gonna keep talking about uh how we sow seeds into conversations.
1:05:41
SPEAKER_03: Uh we've thought about Jesus being Lord as the center of all things.
1:05:44
SPEAKER_03: We've thought about how to sow seed into the culture, we've thought about these questions that'll help us have good conversations, deep conversations, god conversations, Jesus conversations.
1:05:54
SPEAKER_03: Um and I think in the next episode we want to get into um how do we deal with people putting us on the spot and asking us those thorny questions that actually make us fear the entire caper.
1:06:07
SPEAKER_03: And hopefully we will take away fear and give people some some confidence that uh yeah, even if we don't have the answers, Jesus is a good enough answer.
1:06:15
SPEAKER_03: And if we share something of him, uh that will be helpful.
1:06:18
SPEAKER_03: Brilliant.
1:06:19
SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you, Naomi, very much.
1:06:21
SPEAKER_03: Um, guys, if you want to get in touch and let us know some uh good conversational things that you get into, good good ways of you uh going deep with other people in personal evangelism.
1:06:33
SPEAKER_03: We'd love to hear about that.
1:06:33
SPEAKER_03: You can go to uh you can email us at podcast is podcast to is singular singular podcast at speaklife.org.uk and uh we'd love to carry on the conversation there.
1:06:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:06:47
SPEAKER_03: Thanks, then.
1:06:49
SPEAKER_03: See you next time.
1:06:49
SPEAKER_03: Bye-bye.