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How Dying to Himself Shaped Hyatt Moore's Interesting Life · I Don't Know You

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I'm Matt.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a Jesus follower,
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: husband,
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: father,
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: son,
• 0:09
  and friend who is deeply curious about people's creativity and
• 0:13
  how we unleash our
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: unique talents onto a world that needs them.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Today is a really special episode.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: I have the pleasure of organizing
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Let me put the music up.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think we got everybody.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, it's good jazz though.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: I know, I gotta turn it down a little bit.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's gonna turn it down.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you guys for being here.
• 1:04
  It means a lot that you guys are spending your Monday night
• 1:08
  hanging out with a bunch of us.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I think like most people have driven decently far to be here.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you, I appreciate that.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is our first kind of associates event of the year.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of new faces.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: So for those that don't know really what the associates are,
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: it's basically the emerging leaders of the Barnabas Group.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: And the Barnabas Group is basically a bunch of business leaders,
• 1:35
  Christian business leaders that come alongside nonprofits and
• 1:39
  use their gifts and
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: talents to help those nonprofits.
• 1:44
  we as the Emerging Leaders Group really are the next generation
• 1:49
  of Barnabas to ask
• 1:52
  a lot of those questions about how do we use our gifts and
• 1:54
  talents to use our
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: careers really to grow the kingdom of God.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so is that fair to say, Russ?
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: really good.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, great.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Would you add anything to that?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 2:10
  So a couple times a year we have exclusive events as the
• 2:14
  associates program to
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: basically hear from people like Hyatt that have lived a lot of life,
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: that have a lot of wisdom and things to share.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: And Hyatt's like one of the best storytellers I know.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm super, super grateful that him and Ann have allowed us to
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: come into their home and spend a bunch of time
• 2:35
  with us this evening and hear a little bit about their story
• 2:38
  and hear about kind of
• 2:40
  your different careers that you've had over The kind of three
• 2:44
  distinct careers you
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: talk about and a lot of your writing But yeah,
• 2:50
  I'm just I'm very grateful that we have this evening to kind of
• 2:54
  work through
• 2:54
  everything but yeah tonight I'm just very excited that I get to
• 2:59
  do something that I
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: genuinely love which is ask good questions and hear good stories so
• 3:05
  Yeah,
• 3:06
  for those that don't know Hyatt,
• 3:07
  he's the person that lives in this house.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: And one of them.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: One of them.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: And he's an artist now, but he wasn't always an artist.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: I could differ with that, but go ahead.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you've been an artist in different ways.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: I've not always been a painter.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you meant.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's what I meant.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: You can always correct me, by the way.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: But,
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: I basically wanted to open up this conversation,
• 3:34
  kind of skipping a little bit of your first career as an
• 3:39
  illustrator and getting
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: into art.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Art director.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Not an illustrator.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, technical illustrator.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's right.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Fair enough.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I've been reading his, is it autobiography or biography?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: It is an autobiography.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote it myself.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: There we go.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: I always get those mixed up.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: But...
• 3:58
  kind of towards the end of the first part of that career and
• 4:02
  the beginning of right
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: before you started working for Surfer,
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: you talk about it in your book,
• 4:09
  and I think it's a really interesting question that I'd like to
• 4:13
  ask you about that
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: as we kind of get into this discussion.
• 4:17
  Let me interrupt and just say that Matt asked me if I would
• 4:21
  like to see the
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: questions ahead of time or not,
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: and I opted for not.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Which means I don't know how long to answer each question.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Or how many there are.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let me worry about that, and you'll just answer them how you want.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll steer the ship, and you be the wind, you know?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: For lack of a better analogy.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: The blowhard?
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: Don't take it that way.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: But there's basically a point,
• 4:54
  I'm just going to read the question because I forget exactly
• 4:57
  how you phrased it,
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: but it's good.
• 4:59
  And you're telling this story basically right as you were
• 5:02
  getting hired by Surfer
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Magazine,
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: you were their first art director.
• 5:08
  And so they were interviewing you and you brought Anne to the
• 5:12
  interview and
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: something that you said
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: as you were kind of thinking about that was,
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: as I see it,
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: one doesn't just hire a set of capabilities,
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: but a whole person.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that person can be better known by the company he keeps,
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: and in this case,
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: the wife that he marries.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously,
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Anne is a pivotal piece of that,
• 5:36
  and kind of the life that you've lived and the decisions that
• 5:40
  you've made.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm curious, kind of,
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: I have two questions around that.
• 5:48
  What would you have us cultivate to cultivate the type of
• 5:54
  community that helps us
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: push us in the right directions?
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then number two,
• 6:01
  how did it feel partnering in that decision with Anne to take
• 6:04
  the leap from Surfer?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of a job that you were doing before.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: From or to?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: To Surfer, you meant?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, to Surfer.
• 6:12
  Was there like a specific lesson that you felt you learned
• 6:15
  through that transition?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'll give you a story.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:20
  I have to give you a little bit of background to bring you up
• 6:22
  to that point because
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: it kind of matters.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't very good in high school.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't like it, but I had to do something.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: I was good at drafting because it was so easy.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I found a course in technical illustration, a two-year course.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: I became a technical illustrator.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was interesting.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: I liked it.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: But I was always too young to get a job that was as good as my education.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I found it hard.
• 6:51
  But during that period,
• 6:53
  I'm skipping quickly ahead,
• 6:55
  I discovered graphic design.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: I thought, those are the guys that I haven't found.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: They're creative.
• 7:00
  And they're using the same tools that now I know how to use
• 7:03
  before computer.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: If I could figure out how to do that, so I began to self-teach.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to learn how to do graphic design.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: And somebody told me,
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: a graphic designer,
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: if you ever get to be an art director,
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: that's like being an MD in that field,
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: because that's sort of,
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: that'll be my goal.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to be an art director someday, maybe in my 50s.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: it's all part of my testimony,
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: because I became an art director early and found myself empty.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that's all that story.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: But...
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Early on in that,
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: I hadn't been doing it very long,
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: and pretty much just self-teaching,
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: I got this job offer to be the art director at Surfer Magazine.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, I was 26.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: I was going to be that when I was 50.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: At the same time,
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: I was working at a printing concern downtown Los Angeles,
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: and I was in the art department there,
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: and now I was over the art department,
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: so I realized,
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: I like management,
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: too.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's another skill set.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, well, maybe this is the direction I'm going.
• 8:06
  Maybe I'll be in printing management,
• 8:07
  or at least our department printing management.
• 8:11
  So I was thinking about that when this other job came up,
• 8:14
  Surfer Magazine.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Surfer Magazine, I know of it.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of famous in its subculture.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: But where's Dana Point?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: We lived in Redonda Beach.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it was north.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: It was south.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: There wasn't much here yet.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then I said, okay, let's go to an interview.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it was a Saturday.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: It had to be because I had a full-time job.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a drive.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: So let's go together.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking, Anne's an asset.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: She's pretty.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: She's delightful.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: And she's part of me.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of casual.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's a Saturday meeting.
• 8:54
  And so a year later,
• 8:57
  John Severson,
• 8:57
  who was the head of it,
• 8:58
  said,
• 8:59
  why'd you bring Anne that day?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Don't know what I answered,
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: but he was he was a little curious about that,
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: too Yeah,
• 9:06
  I didn't tell him well because I thought if I wasn't too
• 9:08
  good-looking she would be
• 9:14
  But it's like I said in the book You see more the person when
• 9:20
  you see there has
• 9:21
  their spouse It's like you came there this house you see me you
• 9:26
  see us more because
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: this house and
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Which is the way a house should be, by the way.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you're not just full of it because our lives have been full of it.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I think anybody,
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: any house should sort of,
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: you should work to have your personality show in it.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: So when people come over, they say, oh, this is who you are.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the same thing.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: That was part of it.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: I got the job.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: But then, as part of your question, I mean, I got the job.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: I got the offer.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, here's another interesting thing.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: My samples were all pretty rough.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: They were stuff I'd been self-teaching.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: They weren't polished things.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: later on,
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: I got to interviewing people that had been to the art center,
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: and they had their stuff under glass,
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, incredible samples.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was just pulling stuff out of a bag.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And one of them was this calendar that I had made for Anne,
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: all full of humor,
• 10:21
  that I had made for Anne when she was up at Santa Barbara going
• 10:23
  to school,
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: and I was pissing her off on the beach without a job or anything.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: or even a driver's license, but that's another story.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: I made this whimsical calendar,
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: and I gave it to her,
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: month of May,
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: because in the end of May I'd see her.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: When we got married, I got the calendar.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: It happened to be in my possession then.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: I threw it in the bag.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's what got me the job.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: He says, that shows a sense of humor.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I want, youthfulness.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I still wasn't sure.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: I said,
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've just gotten a promotion at this other job,
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: and I thought that was maybe how my career was going,
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: and now this has opened up.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: And this is adults.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: They wear ties, and they're adult people.
• 11:05
  This is a bunch of surfers that may be there when the surf's
• 11:10
  up,
• 11:10
  and they may not be.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Do I go with them?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, let's go to dinner.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Dan, I want to talk to you.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: I want to hear what you think about this, because this is kind of a risk.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so she listened to me, and I've always been grateful for it.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: I always remembered it.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: She said, I think you should do it.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: I still don't know what it meant.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, which?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Which is the it?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think you should do the thing that takes the risk.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: I said, wow, what a woman.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's the kind of person I'd like to be married to,
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: who's willing to let me take a risk,
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: because I wasn't sure.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's try it.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so glad I did.
• 11:57
  Was that the lesson you felt like you learned during that
• 12:00
  transition into the job at Surfer?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Was really like taking the risk?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't feel it was a risk after I got the job.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: It was fine.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: They paid me.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: I was responsible.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: I got their work.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: I was good at meeting deadlines, which is a big part of the job.
• 12:19
  If you're the art director,
• 12:20
  you're basically putting the raw material together.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: You get the articles from somebody who's just typewritten pages.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's all changed because it's a computer now,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: but still the art director is the one that's in control of it.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: You got the photo editor, you got the regular editor.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: It all comes to your desk and they'll make it nice,
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: make it fit,
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: make it work and have it on time.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's the graphic designer's job.
• 12:45
  I was good at it and they saw right away that I could do it
• 12:47
  well and I could do it on time.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Being on time and keeping everybody else on time
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because if they're that,
• 12:53
  then you're late and you suffer because you can't be late for
• 12:56
  the printer.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that was a lot of management in that too.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: But it wasn't a risk anymore.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: It was work and I enjoyed it a lot.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: It was a great job.
• 13:04
  Do you feel like there was a certain lesson that you learned
• 13:07
  through that transition?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Through the transition.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Of kind of switching jobs to this new culture.
• 13:16
  As it turned out,
• 13:16
  that other company went out of business a couple years later.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Not that that would have affected me.
• 13:21
  I mean,
• 13:22
  all those people found it worked somewhere else,
• 13:24
  and I would have too.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I could have done okay in that business.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: But the other was far more creative.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I am a creative.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that allowed it.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And they wanted it.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Youth-oriented magazine, they wanted creativity.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, creativity can happen in any...
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: In any business,
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: because you're doing something new or something you haven't done before,
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: that's creative,
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: whatever it is.
• 13:52
  But in that,
• 13:53
  it was like you want to be creative on every page and every
• 13:56
  month all the time.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that really was more me.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I still can do the other.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: I still like working with people.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: I still like management.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: I like leadership.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, you did that in a different career.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: In many, yeah.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: I want to switch gears a little bit.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's a point where you guys,
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: basically after you had settled here in Dana Point,
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: you went to Mexico.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that is kind of,
• 14:24
  I'd love to kind of hear like the SparkNotes version of the
• 14:28
  conversion story from
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: being in Mexico and then ask my question.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: My friend Gary Emery,
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: who I hung around with a lot during those days,
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: and I,
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: he had the idea,
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: let's go to Mexico.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: We went to Mexico for a month.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I'd do that these days, because Mexico's changed.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: But we did.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: It was a cheap Europe.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, really.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's quotable.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: I went down there with $100,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: and I put $10 away,
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: so I wouldn't,
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: in case I needed it,
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: but when I came back,
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: I still had the $10.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd been there a month.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I went to Mexico twice with him, a month time each time.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then we got married.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to take hands.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: We went for a month.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I went to Mexico a number of times, deep.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: But the story you're talking about, I told you I had this job.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was an art director.
• 15:24
  I liked my job,
• 15:26
  but I knew I was empty,
• 15:28
  and I didn't know how to be not empty.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I was raised a Christian.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I was...
• 15:34
  I was moving in another—experimenting with life and all the
• 15:39
  things that my mother
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: had warned me about—not just warned me about,
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: but anything.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was in rebellion in that regard.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I started suffering from it.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: I started reaping my wild oats, and my health went down.
• 16:02
  And I felt I had the body of an old man,
• 16:05
  a dying old man already,
• 16:06
  and I was 26.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Life's not as fun as it's supposed to be.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: How come it isn't?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: I got everything.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: I got my Porsche.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: I got my sailboat.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: I got my beautiful wife.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: I got a house now.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: I got a great job.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: How come?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: You've heard those kind of stories.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it was mine.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I started searching.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: A friend of mine says, my health is falling apart.
• 16:32
  A friend of mine said,
• 16:34
  hi,
• 16:35
  your problem is you're thinking about yourself too much.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: You need to get into something important in life.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Expand your horizons.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: I said, well, what's important really?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: He said, OK. OK. Maybe nothing.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: But you've got to do it anyway.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: I said, OK. Well, he had a PhD, and I always respected him.
• 16:52
  He moved out of aerospace and oceanology,
• 16:56
  and he was doing ecology,
• 16:58
  which would be now green.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'll do that.
• 17:02
  I'll jump into that and I'll be a responsible citizen and try
• 17:04
  to help our culture
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: be awakened to responsibility for our environment.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I couldn't get very far before I realized you can't change this.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Our economy is built on this.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: You can't really make very many changes, whoever you are.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then I started getting despair.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then I realized there's other ones just as big.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what about over your population?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: What about racial strife?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: What about the bomb?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, all these things big.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, what are you, what about, you know?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's like kind of a fearful place.
• 17:37
  Didn't want to have children because who wants to raise
• 17:41
  children when the world's like this?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's that way now.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people feel this way now.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: I was feeling it then.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I have to...
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Streamline this because I'm skipping big things,
• 17:55
  but I had also realized I got to be positive got to be positive
• 17:58
  Don't think about
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: anything negative.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 17:59
  I had I tried that it was helping me but these realities were
• 18:04
  against me What about
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: the fact what about these things?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, don't look at them.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 18:08
  but they're there So that was the mood I was in when my dad
• 18:12
  lent me a book gave me
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: a book I could tell religious because of it.
• 18:16
  I didn't want to read it,
• 18:17
  but I like my dad With my mother I did it in no way
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: So a month later, he said, hey, did you read that book?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: It was about prophecy.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I lost it.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: He said, well, here, have another one.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: I said, well, I got another.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: I said, yeah, I like this book.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: I bought a case of it.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: In the meantime, I'd lend him a book.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: He gave a book, and he'd read it.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, OK, I'll read it.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: And now I had to, because I said I would.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: First time, I didn't say it.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: I just said, thank you.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: This time, I said, I'll read it.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's right when we went to Mexico.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: I took a bunch of books.
• 18:55
  I was thinking about who knows anything about the future in
• 19:00
  reality or religion.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, not Christian, but, you know, there's new age stuff.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was going to read all that.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it's going to be more of a reading trip because I was in the space.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: I got to figure out where do you find it.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't happy-able.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's a word I made up.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: I was happy on the surface.
• 19:19
  I didn't have fun with my friends,
• 19:20
  but I wasn't deeply happy,
• 19:21
  and I didn't know how to find it.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: I read this book first so that I could tell my dad I read the book.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I was getting it out of the way.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I thought, you know what?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: The guy agrees with me.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's what Ann said.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you like that book?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: She knew I wouldn't.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: I said,
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I like it,
• 19:43
  but he's making a case that the world is falling apart and that
• 19:47
  it's prophesied.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of knew it a little bit because I had a Sunday school background.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: know about Revelation so much, but the Bible stories I knew.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, he would give an invitation to believe now and then.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's when I would practice my speed reading.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, because I couldn't see how that related.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: It seemed mystical.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: And this is reality.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Reality of the world going the direction it's going.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: But it was kind of mystical too.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: I was smoking a lot of marijuana.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was completely addicted to marijuana.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Don't think it isn't addictive.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Not to mention the higher psychedelics where I saw things.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what that is, but it's something.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: So on the last page, I thought, he gave one more invitation.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: I thought, if I take it, well, who knows?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: If I don't take it,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll just go on to the next book and forget about this one.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's how it is.
• 20:55
  I took it by myself in a little hotel room,
• 20:59
  very cheap,
• 21:00
  in Culica,
• 21:01
  Mexico.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Ann wasn't there.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: She wasn't on the same head trip.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: She was with me, but I was the one that was struggling.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: So she wasn't even in the room.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Didn't know what I was reading.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's all by myself and God.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm saying.
• 21:17
  I'm in this little hotel room and I turned my face to the wall
• 21:22
  and I started talking to God.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then I caught myself.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: I said, this is stupid.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is the wall.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then I thought, no, if God is everywhere.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I continued it.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, nothing happened.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't expect anything to happen.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying I did it.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think I even told that.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: It was just me.
• 21:41
  The next day,
• 21:42
  then,
• 21:42
  we went down to Mazatlan,
• 21:43
  which is more of a resort town.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's got a great beach.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: We've been there before.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: We check into a little motel on the beach.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Anne takes a nap.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: I took a walk.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: It was on that walk that I realized what I'd done.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: I thought, this is the first right thing I've done in 10 years.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: The world is falling apart, and now I know it is because it's documented.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: But praise God.
• 22:03
  Now it could be positive,
• 22:04
  even though I could see reality as it is,
• 22:06
  real negatives.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: I changed my whole worldview right there.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I just came back from that walk just overjoyed.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Crying and laughing and all the same.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: And people had seen me, including Ann.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Every book I'd read, I'd try that.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Try that.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Try that.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: They're going to think, that's what I just read another book.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to try this.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: No, this is permanent.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I know it is.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it was.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it still is.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Did I answer your question?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great overview.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I haven't asked my question yet.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a good context set up for my question.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think later on in that story,
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: you turn to Anne at a dinner or something and you say,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be a man of God.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then you say right after that, this is your inner monologue, I think.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what that means, but I'm interested to find out.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious, looking back, what do you think that meant?
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's convicting now, because do I feel that way every day?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I do remember the moment.
• 23:21
  It was in our other Den Point house,
• 23:23
  and I was reading the Bible on an evening.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: And somehow, whatever I was reading, I thought, you know what?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to be a man of God.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: I was just a year into it, my first year.
• 23:33
  I didn't even know quite what I meant,
• 23:36
  but I was further aligning myself with that reality.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think that decision did lead to other things that happened,
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: but it's not like I thought back to it.
• 23:48
  I think that's just sort of the thing that God kind of moves
• 23:51
  you a little bit at a
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: time,
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: and that was another cog.
• 23:57
  Because later on,
• 23:58
  the whole thing about giving my life to the Lord,
• 24:01
  that was a big story.
• 24:02
  And I don't know if you're going to ask that question or should
• 24:04
  I answer it now?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: You're giving your life to the Lord?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, when I serve the Lord with my life, that's a story.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Are you asking it?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: I will, but we can jump to that now.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Might as well.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because it was some time later.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that I kept thinking about that, but I do remember it.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like it was on my mind every day.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: You go back to work, you do what you need to do with daily stuff.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: At Surfer, they knew I was a new person.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I talked about it, and they saw it.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: And there are certain things they wouldn't do anymore.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: But they still liked me.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, when the joint would come around, I'd pass it on.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't take it.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Things like that.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: What?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: What happened?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Things like that.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: I got the notion that I wanted to serve God with my life.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know where I heard it,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: because it's not like I had got it from a sermon that I heard.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I wanted to.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: It seemed like I had been completely saved.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: I was a new person and I knew it.
• 25:15
  And it's like I had found the solution to a happy life,
• 25:20
  to a life of value.
• 25:22
  I should be on the side of helping other people get that,
• 25:25
  but I don't know how to do that.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a graphic designer.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: But with that idea, I would pray about it.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember a certain week that every evening of that week,
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: between going in off work and coming home and having dinner,
• 25:39
  I would take an hour and walk in one of the then empty fields
• 25:42
  in Dana Point.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I would talk about this.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Lord, I would like to dedicate my whole life to you.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't know what it means, and I'm afraid of it.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not going to say that.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just thinking about it.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: And every day I'd get closer to it.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because I thought, once I say it, that sort of means it.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm afraid of it.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm afraid of what, all I can think of is what it'll cost me.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm a graphic designer,
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: and I loved it as my identity,
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: and my skill,
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: and my occupation,
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: and I thought,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: there was no graphic designers in the kingdom.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Of course there are.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: All the occupations are in the kingdom.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: God gave them all to us.
• 26:29
  But I thought that,
• 26:30
  and that means I'm going to have to die to that,
• 26:33
  let it go.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then what will I have?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's scary.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: As the week went by, every day I'd get closer to it.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh,
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: and then another one,
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: I said,
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Lord,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: way back when,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: I had said to my dope-smoking fellowship friends one time,
• 26:58
  You know,
• 26:58
  my life doesn't have to be successful or rich,
• 27:01
  but it has to be interesting.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I said.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: It was just a thought.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: But I've always remembered it.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: The Lord was dealing with that one.
• 27:10
  It's like,
• 27:11
  oh,
• 27:12
  this means I have to even give up my claim to an interesting
• 27:15
  life.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: It may not be interesting.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now are you going to say yes?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: And the Lord, you know, he plays hardball.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't say, now, now, don't you know it's going to be okay?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: He says, okay, you're going to die yourself or not.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, die yourself is a great concept until you have to do it.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because you hold on to life.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't know that concept.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I wasn't dealing with those words.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: But that's what was happening.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: By the end of the week, I was less happy than I started.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I wish I'd never thought of this.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: But now I can't get out of it.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: I got to say yes or no.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to say no because I don't want to say no to God.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to say yes because it's too scary, but I have to say yes.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'll say yes.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: God, I want to dedicate my life to you.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: I want to serve you with my life.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's boring, well, it's only six or seven to 80 more years.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't say it with joy.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: I just said it with resolution.
• 28:26
  And the next day I said it again,
• 28:27
  and the next day I said it again until I got used to it.
• 28:31
  Well,
• 28:31
  then a month later,
• 28:35
  by that time I said,
• 28:36
  well,
• 28:36
  when's something going to happen?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: I went through quite a bit, and nothing's happening.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was only a month, but I thought it was a long time.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: It is a long time.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I thought, hey, God, you know.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: We went to church.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Those ladies had Sunday night service.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: They had a missionary who came.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: She showed slides.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: She'd been to Wycliffe.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't know anything about it, but he could tell.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Bible translation.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: She showed slides.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: She said, I haven't even been to the tribe yet.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to the tribe.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm linguistically qualified.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: But in the meantime, I'm stuck here at the base.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: And here's the base.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'll show you some slides of the base.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the guest house.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the director.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: They got a director.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the secretary.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, they got a secretary.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the library.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Library?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's a hangar.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: They got hangars.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: They got airplanes.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: They got mechanics.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: They got a Honda mechanic.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: What, they got some missionaries?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because the handles break down, there's nobody else.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: So somebody with that skill is serving the Lord that way.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty interesting.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so we go over, here's the print shop.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: There's a guy on that little desk over there.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what he does.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I don't know what he does.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: So after what I want to say, who's this?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: What's this organization again?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I've been to Mexico a couple times.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: I have a little bit of cross-cultural awareness.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I could do that kind of job maybe.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: What's her address?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so we went home, prayed about it, wrote a letter.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Next day, I put the letter in a box.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: I said, let's try this out.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: They had a short-term assistant program.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: We'll do this for short terms.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, from then, short term was two years.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Nowadays, it's the weekend.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: But we signed up.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, one more part of that story.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to skip away.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, now we raised our support, got rid of the job.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: People said, whoa, he's serious.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: We're serious the whole time, but now they see it.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because I really did let all that go.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: The Porsche went, the boat went, the house went, my wife stayed.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: You made the right choice.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: And we went to Guatemala, and we loved living in Guatemala.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: It was so interesting.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: We've got Guatemalan things right there.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: We've got Guatemalan things.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's a colorful place.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: One day I was sitting there in that print shop.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I was doing some really dumb work.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was for the tribes.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: These people don't even know how to read anything.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: And anything you give to them doesn't have to be sophisticated.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: Just whatever.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's my job.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: No creativity.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Day after day of that.
• 31:07
  And I said,
• 31:07
  Lord,
• 31:08
  I told you I would serve you with my life,
• 31:11
  even if it's boring.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: And sure enough, this is boring.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: But then I said, I wonder if this is a test.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, I think all commitments are tested.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's a test, I'm going to pass it.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: This needs to be done.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: I can do it.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: I can do it 10 times more.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: They don't even know or care.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: What they need is this, and nobody else will do it, so do it.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'll do it with a good attitude.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I passed that test.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: I know I passed it, because I've never had to take it again.
• 31:50
  And I'll just tell you that my life in terms of interest is
• 31:52
  going like this.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: To the whole life,
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: to the people who walk up to me,
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: hardly even know me now,
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: who walk up and say,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: you have had an interesting life.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, that's it.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's the very thing I had to die to.
• 32:06
  And that's the thing that God gives back a hundred times in
• 32:08
  this life as he promises.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: You answered a couple of my questions in there.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: Good, because I took a long time on it.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: No, it was great.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm curious,
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: for someone that's early in their career like we are,
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: and a lot of what you've been talking about,
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think you've been speaking to us.
• 32:28
  Don't you open that little door within the door because it's
• 32:29
  getting warm in here.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of what you've been talking about,
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: you've been speaking to this,
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: but what would you say,
• 32:36
  what's the difference between chasing a good opportunity and
• 32:39
  actually following a
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: calling?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Boy.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Do I talk about that in my book?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's a hard one.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you find your calling, you find who you are.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose chasing opportunities are all part of it.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: But you can often change things and find out that it wasn't.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to get back on track.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you're following your calling, you're happy.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you may or may not be happy if you're just trying stuff.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: even with working at the print shop in Guatemala,
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: were you happy doing the menial kind of media?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: No, I wasn't happy doing that, as I told you.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I didn't worry about it once I got over that little men thing.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: I thought, I'll just do it.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: And my happiness doesn't count.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'll do it.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: I told myself, don't complain about it.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: Don't grouse about it.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Don't tell them about it.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Just do it.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: I might get you over it.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Then you're not mad.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: But you felt like you were living into your calling then.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't last long because the guy had run that print shop and built it.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: It had 20 people working there,
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: two shifts,
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: started running,
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: went to midnight,
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: and they were all Guatemalans.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: And they all knew how to do it.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was in the art department.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know printing.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: All of a sudden, he says, look, I've been transferred to Dallas.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: I can't find anybody.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the keys.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: So now I'm running it.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really know printing, and I don't know Spanish.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, life got interesting.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:20
  Really,
• 34:20
  that was just the beginning of the baptism with lots of things
• 34:25
  like that.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I was happy.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: I rose to it.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I really enjoyed it a great deal.
• 34:30
  And to the point when they found out that I really could do
• 34:33
  sophisticated graphic
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: design and said,
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: we need this back in the home office.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to start doing our stuff in-house.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the guy that knows how to do it.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: Bring him back here.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: I said, no, I didn't want that.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because now I was living cross-culturally.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: We love Guatemala.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I had a hard time with that until I realized, no, this was God.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: This was of God.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I had to kind of figure that out first.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Once I realized, oh, this is of God, then I'm going to do it.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then I had a great time there,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: too,
• 35:01
  to the point where I couldn't be pulled away from that some
• 35:03
  years away because it
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: was so great.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 35:10
  I want to switch gears here because we're getting towards the
• 35:15
  end of our time.
• 35:18
  But I'm curious just on kind of when you look at a room of
• 35:24
  these people and you see
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: the life stage that we're in,
• 35:31
  what do you see in the life stage and career that you wish
• 35:34
  someone had named for
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: you at our age?
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: Give yourself to God and then do what you want.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: Don't stress about it.
• 36:02
  Because I think God in His great grace and intention has given
• 36:11
  us all gifts.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's like as if He's got this gift.
• 36:21
  handful of gifts like rice or something colored rice let's call
• 36:28
  and he goes and
• 36:32
  we're down here and one hit us the next guy hit another he got
• 36:39
  a different one for
• 36:41
  her and the one we got is the one we get and that's the one we
• 36:46
  run with and it's
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: not that guy's
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not to be compared.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, which is better?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: You can't say what's better.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: You take the one you got and run with it.
• 37:00
  And it's like God is saying,
• 37:02
  I just wanted to see what would happen if you got that one.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, he knows because it's omniscient.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: But let's look at it as if he's saying that,
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: because I think that's kind of a fun way for him,
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: where he's our audience.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: I gave you that one just to see what would happen.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: So the gift is the gift.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's basically a seed, is what I figured out, what the Lord told me.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: That a talent is really nothing but a seed.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's not full-blown.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: And the seed then happens.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it depends on, it depends.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Do you water it?
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: Do you sun it?
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: Do you keep the bugs away?
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: Do you nurture it?
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: And the seed can grow into the,
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: the mustard seed can grow into the biggest tree,
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: so the scripture says.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: So any teeny seed can grow very big.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: But that's what we have.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: But we only have that seed.
• 37:55
  Well,
• 37:55
  some people have lots of seeds,
• 37:56
  a couple of seeds,
• 37:56
  and then they're very busy.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: But even then, it's still limited.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have all the seeds.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have that person's seed.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: So a seed would be like your talent for painting.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: A talent for painting came later.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: I had other talents, too.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: We all have multiple talents.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the things that makes us interesting, by the way.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: The particular mix of talents that we have makes us unique.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so you got another person that's also an English teacher,
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: like I am,
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: like that,
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: but you'll say,
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm an English teacher,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: you're an English teacher,
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: but that person's very different.
• 38:27
  It's just they overlap in this one thing,
• 38:28
  because we have these other things.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's how we are.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Back to your question.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: I would think, don't overstress it too much.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: Once you've kind of committed yourself to,
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: look,
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: look,
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: God,
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: I am,
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm for you,
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trusting you,
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't see the whole picture,
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: probably never will see the whole picture,
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: but I trust you.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: Then just go do what you want to do.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, unless it's sin.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's obvious I don't have to say that.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't sanction that.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: But everything else, I think that everything that isn't sin is of God.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: Everything that isn't sin is of God.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: So the whole world is for us to enjoy and to interact with all the time.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I say
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Don't worry.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: I said, don't stress over it.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: Just run with your talent.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: But do run with your talent.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: Cultivate it.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, don't poo-poo it.
• 39:28
  Don't say,
• 39:28
  oh,
• 39:29
  yeah,
• 39:29
  this is not that important because there's only such and such.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's not God.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not an attitude of gratitude.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: I would say.
• 39:38
  I had to deal with that when I was becoming a painter because I
• 39:41
  had to test him
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: because I'm not sure.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was in missions.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm a painter?
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: Is that just me, or am I getting off track now?
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: And yet I felt God gave it to me.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I had to kind of test him at a certain point.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: Testing is the wrong word.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: You don't test God.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: But still, test my own commitment on this.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I said to God, it's only art.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: My dad was an engineer.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: My son's an engineer.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: I can't do that.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: All the people we worked with were linguists.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: They were the smart ones.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we're all smart.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, they were the reason we worked there.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: They were the linguists.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: I was just an artist.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm a painter.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Lord, it's only art, I said.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, I thought that was one of the good ones.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how I heard it.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: He would talk like I talk, like I thought, like God says that.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: But that's what he said.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that was one of the good ones.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, well, I thought so too.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: I just didn't know he had such agreement at such high places.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because we see what God has done.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: Everything he does is beautiful.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: He loves beauty.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not superficial to him.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: And nothing is superficial to him.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: Every gift he gives you, he gives us, he will say the same thing.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that was one of the good ones.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: So don't demean it.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: Run with it.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: And who knows what you can do with it.
• 41:25
  I asked a guy way back at the beginning of my technical
• 41:28
  illustration career.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: I was just in the stool.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I met a man who was twice my age, and he was in that field.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, how far up can a technical illustrator go?
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: He said, chairman of the board.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's just it.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: A lowly thing or a lowly gift, you keep on going.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: If you're faithful to it.
• 41:53
  And whether or not you get that part,
• 41:55
  if you're enjoying it as you go,
• 41:57
  that's what life's about.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: You're being faithful to your gift.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're being faithful to your gift.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's basically being faithful to God who gave the gift.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I think being faithful to a gift, which is a
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: phrase that I use, but I've never heard anybody else use it.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think that if you're not being faithful to your gift,
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: then you're demeaning something that God has given you,
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: and God is not praised by it,
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: pleased.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because he calls all of them special.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: Good.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious as we kind of wrap up,
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: as we kind of go about our lives and get out of this space,
• 42:37
  what's a question that you have for us that you want us to sit
• 42:42
  with as we kind of
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: continue to grow in our careers?
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: A question for the whole group?
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just to think about.
• 42:53
  We don't have to answer it now,
• 42:54
  but to think about as we go about our lives.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: What's a question you have for us?
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's a hard one.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I asked you if you wanted another question before.
• 43:13
  Well,
• 43:14
  I'll just answer it in another way,
• 43:16
  and maybe the question will come of it.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I listened to a podcast on the weekend by a guy who was 77.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: He kept saying, I'm 77.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, you're 77.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: You look like you're 77.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: But the podcast was about getting old,
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: and he had about 10 points,
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: and he was talking to a fellow 77-year-old or plus like me.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, when you get older, you know, it was interesting.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: I kept skipping ahead of it.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need the verbiage.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: I just need to, what are your next points?
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need all the lessons.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: What's your next point?
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: And he got lots and lots of comments on it, which were affirming it.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: you start losing your friends,
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: they start dying,
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: your memory goes,
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: your hearing goes,
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: your health goes.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: These are very positive things.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: But people enjoyed the fact that he was covering these things.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing new to me.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, my hearing's still okay, but it could happen.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: You see the end closer.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still healthy and active, but you kind of see the horizons.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like I see Saddleback Mountain out there.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: Not that far.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the things he said.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: He said, I'm 77.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: The actuary table said that 77 is my year to die.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: And a pretty interesting thing to think about.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, maybe we're going to beat it.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: We're not going to beat it by that much.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: But the point is, in the end, I thought, well, that was interesting.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: But what he never covered was what next.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: He wasn't Christian.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he didn't talk to Christians.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, you got to be thinking about that.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, okay, this life is our turn.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: Then our turn's up, and then we have the next life, which is better.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: We don't understand it, but we know it's better.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: We saw it's there,
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: unless it's not better,
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: unless it's worse,
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: because you've made that decision or haven't.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: So the fact that he hadn't ever brought it up I thought was a major miss.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: he probably didn't have it himself to say it,
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: and he probably didn't want it to be religious.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I can see why I didn't bring it up.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: But it's still a major thing not to think about.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next one is likened to it.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: I get it when I'm reading my scriptures.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm reading my scriptures in the morning.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I see, how do I?
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: In heaven, there are degrees.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: We're all going to get to heaven.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's all by grace.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: But there's still degrees of our mansion, for example.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: It depends on what we did.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: It says so.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: The Lord says it a number of times.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, as you get older, there's less chance to augment that.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: But there's plenty of chance when they're younger.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: Or more chance.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: Am I answering your questions now?
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: Sort of.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm asking you the question.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: How do you apply that?
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying it's an easy one.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because I myself don't know.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: Lord, you know my heart.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to gain as much as I can in the next life.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's wise.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: How do I do it?
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: I get no answer.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Which is pretty normal.
• 46:21
  So I just keep on going and expect that the right things are
• 46:24
  happening as I go.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm telling you that there's less time to do that because of my age.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: You have longer, but it's still the same question.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that's my question.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: How do you build a big mansion?