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Might You Already be a Democratic Socialist? · We Can Do Better

• Fran Quigley: Hello and welcome to We Can Do Better, a podcast about ending poverty in our time. I'm your host, Fran Quickley. I'm a law professor. I go with my students every week to eviction court where we represent some of the millions of people in this country who are facing the loss of their homes. Many of our clients, like so many others, are also forced to skip filling prescriptions. Many go hungry despite living in the richest nation in the world. We can do better. Other countries already do far better. The United States has often done better in the past. So what this podcast does is we lift up the many people and organizations who are working to make housing, healthcare, and decent life enforceable human rights for all. That means this week we are excited to welcome our friend Jesse Brown for a conversation that we are calling Might You Already Be a Democratic Socialist? Jesse is uniquely suited to guide us on this at on this exploration. Because he is the first openly socialist candidate ever elected to the City Council of Indianapolis in the heart of Republican-dominated Indiana. Jesse won his seat in 2023 with the endorsement of the Democratic Socialist Lumerica DSA by defeating the sitting vice president of the South. Jesse is also a former high school teacher, which is probably good preparation for patiently educating the public about what democratic socialism is. And De Democratic Socialism is not. So Jesse, we are excited to welcome you on the show for this conversation. Thank you for coming. Jesse Brown: It's been such an honor, Fran. I I know you know I've been a fan of yours for a long time. I've gotten a chance to join you in eviction court, at least on one occasion, and yeah, just couldn't be happier to be here. Fran Quigley: Yeah, well, we're excited to to have you. And and again, not I'm not I will say up front I am not a neutral observer on this question. I'm a longtime and we'll talk about this active member of the religion and socialism working group within DSA and a big fan of yours, as is so many other folks that that I know here in our home shared hometown of Indianapolis. So let's start since we're asking people to Consider whether they may already be a democratic socialist. Let's talk about your own origin story. When and how did you first realize that maybe you were a democratic socialist? Jesse Brown: This is an awesome question and I do get it a lot. It's funny because the labels involved I think have changed over time. But what really kind of caused me to recognize a conflict and realize I I had a stance on that conflict was the dichotomy between what I learned from the Bible, right? So I had Fran Quigley: We Maybe. yeah. Jesse Brown: I was baptized Methodists, I had Methodists on my mom's side of the family. I had Catholics on my dad's side of the family. Both sides were very interested in me reading the Bible, learning stories from the New Testament, especially, and you know, the Beatitudes, the Sermon on the Mount, just every everything that resonated deeply with me on a spiritual and religious level. Fran Quigley: Yeah. Yeah, we Jesse Brown: was about loving your neighbor, taking care of the poor, you know, the rich having a hard time getting into heaven. All this just kinda immediately resonated. I don't know if that's human nature or just the culture I was raised in or both. But, you know, this all I was like, okay, sure, this makes perfect sense. This is a clear ethical system. And then, you know, I I have a distinct memory of one evening being, I think probably about twelve years old, you know, pre-teen, and hearing a weird noise at night and walking downstairs and Fran Quigley: Your sheet is all this problem. Yeah. Yeah. Jesse Brown: seeing my single mom just crying, looking at the bills in front of her at her table and realizing, you know, my mom works all the time. She, you know, works like sixty hours a week. She was a court reporter, stenographer. Why is she struggling just to pay the bills? We don't have you know, we didn't have Central Air. We didn't have a lot of nice things. Why why would it be that a hardworking person in the society that calls itself Christian would would, you know, be be struggling so much? And Fran Quigley: This is about Yeah. Jesse Brown: you know, as I started looking into it, I was a nerdy kid and so I would read a lot and, you know, look at read the newspaper and yeah, I realized that a lot of people who were in charge of our society in positions of power had a large a large amount of money and were beholden to interests that had a large amount of money. And so I started asking questions like, Why are we more concerned with helping the rich get richer than helping people like my mom be able to pay Fran Quigley: And then Well, I'll be Jesse Brown: her bills. And, you know, I realized that that was the system called capitalism. That was pursuit of profit above all else. And then human needs come later, if at all. And so I like, Well, I know I'm not that. I think that is actually bad. That goes against what I've learned in the Bible. That goes against the things that are important to me. And so the word I used at first was anarchist because I like, Well, all these powerful people, that's the problem. You know, really we just need to get the powerful people out of the way and then those of us on the grassroots at the bottom will take care of each other. Fran Quigley: Yeah. Jesse Brown: And honestly, you know, like I I was raised in the United States of America, like most of our listeners probably, and you know, was taught that the word socialism meant authoritarianism and it meant you know, party elites who had all the resources and they actually didn't care for the people on the bottom either, and all these kind of like red scare stereotypes of the USSR and China. and there's critiques I have of the USSR in China, but I think that Fran Quigley: Okay. Jesse Brown: you know, over time I've come to realize that the government in a democracy can and should be a tool that people use for solving problems. And I realized I was kind of third partying the government as you know, like rank and file workers can third party the union and just like, gosh, the union is over here doing all this stuff, not realizing the union is made up of all of us who work here. the government is made up of all of us who work here in a democracy. And so, complaining about the government without taking ownership and and power over the government was part of the problem and so that's when I kind of started moving away from the concept of anarchism and towards the concept of socialism. Fran Quigley: And just to put some timeline, you were doing all this, the realization from your mom's struggles was your junior high or something. This is a high school level discussion. Jesse Brown: Yeah, it you know, listening to Rage Against the Machine and there was one of their C Ds in particular where the album notes just had this like pile of books and it was all sorts of, you know, like lefty you know, it was like Kropotkin and Lenin and Che Guevara and, you know, all sorts of different kind of incoherent looking back at it, but just a lot of like lefty rebel, you know, books. And I like, okay, I've always loved books. I you kind of read every book I could find at the library. Never read these political ones and I started reading through those and yeah, kind of the rest is history. You know, I I I'm still very proudly anti-authoritarian, I'm like pacifist, I really believe in pro-free speech and free elections, but I don't shy away from even the word communism, but definitely not the word socialism. It's kind of the same way I still call myself a Christian, even though there's a bunch of hateful people who I think misuse that term. in the same way, I wouldn't necessarily defend everyone calling themselves a socialist, but I still feel comfortable using the word. Fran Quigley: That's a great, that's a great explanation. So it you were elected to your position in 2023, but that seems like so long ago in the development of democratic socialism in the United States. So there's the the profile of DSA broadly, but but even more broadly, democratic socialists, and and however we're gonna define that. is okay, so Zoran Mandani winning the New York City mayoral election, but that even was a while ago. In the fact we've had dozens and dozens of folks winning elections just this year in 2026. So so it's democratic socialism having democratic socialism is having a moment, right? but I do think, and and certainly anybody's been paying attention to the media, there's been pushback on that, especially within front kind of the corporate wing of the Democratic Party saying. You know, democratic socialism is this, democratic socialism is that. So if do you again thinking that our listener might be someone who is generally sympathetic to, or probably very sympathetic to the values that you that you've mentioned, you know, what how would you define that for for a quick elevator pitch, people have and will continue to write volumes about what socialism is and is not? I mean, how would you give a quick elevator pitch about what democratic socialism? Jesse Brown: Yeah, the quick part's the hard part, 'cause you know, I am every bit a politician at this point, and so I speak very long winded often, but let me try it my best. So you I think the audience of this podcast is significantly more kind of woke to values based issues than than the average LinkedIn participant. But what I say on LinkedIn is putting the people in the driver's seat of the government, right? And so I would also add the driver's seat of the economy as well. Fran Quigley: Ha. Jesse Brown: And I think it's really that. the a synonym that I've used successfully for explaining democratic socialism is working class protagonism, meaning invite people in to be co-owners and kind of the central characters of the story of government. So I differentiate from, for example, a welfare state. I think a welfare state would be much better than what we have here in the United States, you know, if we actually did provide things from on high to help take care of people. But even that model think presupposes that the people in need are kind of recipients just with their hands out, please sir, may I have some more, as opposed to these are my resources, I have a right to them just like you have a right to yours, and collectively we will decide how we best use our resources. And so, yeah, I think it's that owner operator principle where we trust in regular working class people to participate in collectively making decisions, knowing people get things wrong. So that doesn't mean that we will never make a mistake, but It means that we can collectively learn from our mistakes and get better over time. And you know, I think that we could choose, right? As opposed to kind of taking a a book from Marx or Lenin and treating it like the Bible and we have to follow the rules of these dead, you know, Europeans. Instead, we all sit around the table and decide what makes sense. And so I tend to agree with you and some of your writings and and Jacobin and elsewhere, Fran, that, you know, not only Fran Quigley: Yeah. Jesse Brown: the healthcare industry should be nationalized and turned into Medicare for all, but also the pharmaceutical industry, for example, I think, should be run a lot more efficiently directly by the government as opposed to through all these companies. but perhaps we decide that there's no reason to nationalize candy, right? We still want private firms to figure out what the best candy bars are. you know Fran Quigley: I'm not pleased. Jesse Brown: I I think housing, you know, we should do a lot more public housing, but also cooperative collective housing. I don't think we necessarily have to ban private production of housing. you know, we could just decide what works and then within a couple of years pivot and change our minds and say, you know what, never mind, we're gonna change the regulations. but at the end of the day, it's not about opposition to any markets, it's about seeing all of these economic tools as tools that are in the service of the people. Right. So again, we own and operate this. We want to make our lives better and we decide how we best get there from here. Fran Quigley: Well so if if I think that it'd be a fair question for someone to say, well, we already are in a democracy, right? We you know we do get to choose. We do have free and fair elections. Now that those are levels of of degree and we certainly have people working very hard to make sure we don't have free and fair elections. But but if if we if we accept the premise that we do have the ability to choose our elected officials and our leaders now, you know And and maybe this is not as good of a question as it would have been three years ago because we've had so many elections where democratic socialists have won. Why don't we have the kind of democratic decision making that that you describe? Why don't why don't we already have that? Jesse Brown: Yeah, I think there's a lot of obstacles and a lot of barriers that prevent true democracy from prevailing here in the United States. I mean, we have a structure that is just ancient. So, you know, we we talk about the oldest still existent constitution of the world as though that's a good thing. And realistically, I mean what that means is we haven't much changed or evolved or used new technology. We're still running our computer on DOS as opposed to Windows eleven. you know, and so We're just dealing with a bunch of structural problems baked into this ancient constitution that I think just needs major reform, if not a total rewrite. you know, the Senate, the Electoral College, these are just intentionally anti-democratic elements. a Supreme Court that can never be recalled, that can never be expanded and that serves until death. There's all of these aspects that make it difficult. And then there's of course, the players and the capitalist economy that are having a major impact on the political system as well. So for example, you know, present podcast accepted, most of our media is owned and operated by billionaires. And you know, when Jeff Bezos owns the Washington Post, you'll find that there are very few editorials talking about the benefits of socialism. And that's one example, but we see it constantly. And it's not just about what options are available, it's about how we think of our neighbors and, you know, especially in Indiana, I think Most of our media bombards us with this concept that everyone is this kind of right wing, horrible, hateful person who, you know, is just foaming at the mouth, ready to tear apart any person of color or trans person. And there is certainly bigotry in our state, and there's certainly people with opinions and ideas that I strongly disagree with. But we look at Bernie Sanders cleaned up in the twenty sixteen primary in Indiana, the supposedly red state. Fran Quigley: Yeah. Jesse Brown: And I know multiple people who were working class folks who would have gladly voted for Bernie, who ended up voting for Trump in twenty sixteen, not because, you know, their primary motivation was racism, but because they saw the structural problems that working class people are facing and saw that establishment Democrats just were trying to paper them o over and ignore them. And so, to your point, I think that when voters actually have a choice that calls out the structural problems in our system. and presents an opportunity for changing them, I think voters take that choice. And that's true every place we've seen it, even outside of candidate elections, right? We've seen every time abortion rights have been on the ballot, even in states that we consider deep red and very conservative, abortion rights have prevailed. Every time higher minimum wage has been on the ballot anywhere in the country, pretty much always minimum wage has prevailed. Even if voters simultaneously will elect a right wing politician. while voting to keep abortion rights and raise the minimum wage. And so to me that's a clear sign that candidates who run explicitly on impacting people's material well being will win. You know, all the culture war issues will fade to the background, even among people who have a lot of you know, bigoted ideas or or ideas that I find deplorable, they're still mostly concerned about taking care of their families and taking care of their community and wanting more resources for the people that they know and love. So I think it's actually a pretty easy sell, personally. Fran Quigley: Right. Well it's it's and and your success has proven it and dozens and dozens of folks winning in the last few years have has proven it. And and I I I we'll put in our show show notes an article I recently saw in the publication, The Guardian, which talks about that let me see if the actual headline here is it the article says, quote, Democratic socialists are winning in US cities with message of getting stuff done. And I'll put a link, we'll put a link in the show notes. And the article referenced the term sewer socialism. Sewer socialism is something people may have heard of. It's a historical term in some ways, but obviously is being revived. You know, how would you define sewer socialism and how does that connect to what you talked about of the electoral success that democratic socialists are seeing these days? Jesse Brown: Yeah, I think that's a great tie-in to the past. And you know, I intentionally wore this t-shirt. This is not for people looking at it, actually Fran Quigley here on my shirt. it is in fact Exactly. it is Eugene Victor Debs, who was from Terre Haute, Indiana, and ran for president several times under the Socialist Party of the United States ticket, ended up getting over a million votes one year when he ran from prison. Fran Quigley: Yeah, this is my fell my fellow bald inclusure socialist, yeah. Jesse Brown: and you know, was very, very focused on labor and unions. And you know, he got a I think a a pretty impressive number of votes while running for president, talking about kind of big picture issues about the economy and about foreign policy, et cetera. But the people who actually were more successful at actually getting elected and staying elected were the folks from certain areas of New York and also Wisconsin. Wisconsin was the biggest one. You know, we had multiple different governors who were socialists, mayors of a w Milwaukee, and there was just this Midwest, Wisconsinite, you know, kind of Nordic tradition, socialists. And from what I've read through the Apocrypha, et cetera, I think originally sewer socialism was intended as a derogatory term. It was, you know, these people call themselves socialists, but actually they're just busy Fran Quigley: interesting. Jesse Brown: working on like building sewer systems and doing all this like, you know, public works issues and you know, it was derogatory 'cause some comrades believe they should be talking about high and lofty ideals about capitalism more often. but these guys' perspective was the reason people vote for you is to actually help make their lives better. And we believe that socialism is the only way to do that in a durable manner because capitalism structurally won't let reforms go through. and so you have to be a socialist in order to really help. But we don't we shouldn't expect people to take that on faith, right? We should demonstrate exactly what Zaran has done in New York City. It's like we can actually help the government work for you. And that's why you should be a socialist. Not because, you know, you read a book and the book taught you that this is the morally right thing to do. People are much more motivated by, again, their material interest rather than you know, just like Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Jesse Brown: reading a book that that convinces them that ideologically this is the right thing to do. I actually got a really cool personal experience with this where December of twenty five I went to New Orleans to meet up with a group of people through the DSA fund. So this was elected officials who are socialists from all over the country. And he didn't come in person, but Bernie Sanders presented via Zoom and gave us kind of a speech about Fran Quigley: Wouldn't Jesse Brown: lessons he learned as mayor of Burlington as a as a local elected before he was ever in the US House or Senate. And you know he had gave a long speech. He's Bernie, so we were all wrapped attention and loved it. But yeah, if I was gonna try to distill it down, he basically said, do your job, right? People elected you for local or state office because they want you to make the local or state place you live better, right? They want their lives to get better. Fran Quigley: Ha ha ha. Jesse Brown: You have to focus on the core fundamentals, make sure the trash is getting picked up, make sure the snow's getting shoveled. You know, you have to actually do your job and make government work because if you do that, even people who don't like socialism will come behind you and be willing to consider socialist ideals because they see you're a good person who is caring for them and and fighting hard to make the world a better place. Whereas if you spend all your time making speeches and and denouncing war and you know, talking about Foreign policy issues, talking about, you know, fighting billionaires who don't even exist in your city or state. The people who that resonates with are already on your side. This doesn't bring new people in, and it won't convince people to vote for you if you're not also getting the job done. And so, you know, Bernie Sanders does weigh in on all those things and did so even before he was at federal office. So he wasn't saying don't do it, but he just said remember, your first job is to do your job. And to me that's a very pseudo-socialist message, right? It's just Fran Quigley: Yeah. Yeah, that's okay. And so yeah, so although although we still need good sewers, childcare socialism or public transit socialism, etc. is the twenty is the Mangdani and others equivalent for 21st century. That's great. And so and you mentioned the why we have a different situation now than than Jesse Brown: Always be delivering, you know. Yes. That's right. Fran Quigley: again in the places where democratic socialists have not yet won, and that includes our own home state of Indiana, but includes most of the country, especially outside of major cities. So I think that again, probably most of the folks listening to this podcast, although your participation may may may bring some other folks in who are or who like to to follow you so they can criticize you, which is part of the part of the gig I realize is being an elected official and a socialist in Indiana. But I think most of the folks Who listen would probably consider themselves to be quote unquote liberal Democrats. Certainly that's something that I would consider have considered myself through all of all of my adult life. And so the question would be: you know, what's the difference between a liberal democrat and a democratic socialist? And so I thought that that maybe we can look at like a couple of hypothetical states or cities if that's easier in terms of a political entity. If one is run by a liberal Democrat, quote unquote liberal democrat is also a capitalist, and one is run by a democratic socialist, how would you see those two entities being different if one is democratic socialist run? Jesse Brown: Yeah, I think that's a great question. And honestly, you know, I I'll admit I was a extreme idealist, even though I I'm pride myself on being able to kind of roll my sleeves up and and get into difficult problems. but when I came into government, what I expected to find was a lot of people who are more moderates or, you know, more liberals and and didn't agree with kind of socialist policy framing and then I thought that we'd be able to or we'd have to debate and find some middle compromise ground. but what I found is that most elected officials actually agree that socialist policies are better and when they are moderating, they're not actually moderating between different groups of constituents where gosh, there's conservative people over here, there's liberal people over here, and so we have to find some place in the middle. No, for the most part, most constituents are all on a supermajority on one side of an issue and big donors are on the other side of the issue. Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Jesse Brown: And when we talk about moderation, it's what can we get away with before the donors turn on us and start financing our opponents instead? And so, you know, because of that, even in this hypothetical situation where we have let's say, unlike Indianapolis, we have a l city run by liberal democrats that isn't preempted by the state house. And so they actually have a free hand to create policies. I still don't think that we would see durable policies that help uplift the working class because Liberal Democrats, as a overbroad generalization, tend to be very nervous about shutting the door on powerful people who have resources and wealth that they can bring to bear on the political arena. And so they will always try to make sure those people are in the room and weighing in heavily on any policy decisions and the things that are good for most working class people will necessarily cause some of the rich people to have a harder time. And Fran Quigley: I don't know. Jesse Brown: You know, I don't think that means that, you know, like the rich people are all going into gulags or, you know, now they'll be living on the streets, but they won't be able to take their six month vacation on their second yacht, right? You know, I mean and but it really will, you know, materially negatively impact them to have better policies that are more fair. And so, you know, my belief is, you know, as a kind of anti authoritarian and a pacifist that it's not ever, you know, I don't believe in this like dictatorship of the proletariat where we just you know, If you're above a certain wealth amount, then we automatically, you know, guillotine you or put you in jail or something else. It's like, no, you just get one vote the same way everybody else does. And if you can manage to be persuasive, you know, if if it's true that you and your business acumen are a net positive for society, you should be able to convince voters of that, right? And if you can, that's great. If you can't, then looks like you might have to cough up a little bit more. And so because socialist policy, any socialist that I think is worth its salt. should be developing policy in conjunction with the mobilized working class base of the community. So it shouldn't just be we go into this backroom with our socialist lobbyists and come up with the policy and then deliver it from on high. Instead, we should be collectively talking about it in big town halls and debates and rallies. And the resulting policies should end up being more durable so that if Zaran Mabdani is is, you know, hit by one of his fast free buses and is in the hospital for six months. if he's doing his job well, the movement should be able to carry it on and someone could replace him. And it's not just like unique charismatic individuals who have the sole power to deliver from on high. It's the people collectively who are instituting these programs and then they'll defend them, right? So if the next election some conservative manages to come in, you know, the people will push back against any efforts to just suddenly axe these programs or or use a pen and cut them out of the budget. Because society requires all of our active participation, things like strikes, protests, rallies, sit-ins, you know, regular people even without much money can stop, you know, policies from changing if they're motivated to do so at organized. Fran Quigley: Right, right. Right. And yet those people are also, as you say, discounted, literally discounted in the political arena too often because they can't come up with the money, at least individually come up with the money. And so I've heard an organizer for campaign finance reform say a a great line saying that campaign finance reform may not be your most important issue, but it has to be your first one because we're not going to get any change without campaign finance reform. But at the same time Jesse Brown: Yes. Fran Quigley: I know that you didn't take any organizational donations and you were able to upset and displace a a fairly popular vice president of the city council. Obviously, Mondani and and many others are winning. You know, wh how do you come down on that in terms of do do we need you talked about structures, including the Supreme Court, including the Constitution? You know, do do we need to legally get corporate money, unlimited wealth out of of campaigns. Is that or is that something that well organized candidates and movements are going to be able to overcome? Jesse Brown: I think that it's both, right? So I think we've like you said, we've got evidence that some well organized campaigns can overcome them, at least sometimes, right? And so it is not the case that we should just sit on our thumbs until we get those campaign finance reforms passed. because we can win even without it. Bernie Sanders came close to winning even with not only campaign finance issues, but structural issues within the Democratic Party, structural issues within the Electoral College, all of the above. I don't think that because he didn't win that fight was not worth fighting either. So I think that we can engage in campaigns that help build organization and kelp help build future structures and skill sets among the volunteers. And when we win, it's icing on the cake, right? That's that's a extra bonus. But we know we're not going to be able to totally fix the system in a durable way, like I mentioned, until we remove some of the structural barriers. Because, you know, I think right now, you know, you could look at especially since twenty twenty, but even even twenty sixteen, I think it has been the case that ordinary people are more and more recognizing the trend that's been true since at least Reagan, if not before, where, you know, cost of living is going up faster than wage increases. And certainly billionaires and CEOs wages and power are going up much faster than the wages and power of all the rest of us. And so this rising inequality Is becoming more and more noticeable and less and less tolerable to regular people. And so right now we're at a crisis point where many people don't really like either major political party. They think most politicians are bad and corrupt. And so people really are hungry, I think, for fighters and for bold changes. And from my armchair quarterback perspective, it sure looked to me like the reason Donald Trump won in twenty sixteen. was because he seemed like the biggest outsider candidate. You know, he had all this talk about draining the swamp and, you know, like pointing out the corruption and the problems in the system. Whereas you know, my perspective on Hillary Clinton's campaign that year was kind of like, well, yeah, we need some, you know, nibble around the edges. We do need to make a few little changes. But overall things are great. And I think most people think things are not great. And so right now, because of this vacuum of vision, and you know, I think we're seeing the same thing locally at in Indianapolis and in the state level, Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Jesse Brown: But really it's true anywhere in the United States, there's a lack of vision. What what should society look like? What changes do we need? You know, Donald Trump has a vision, right? We've got Project Twenty Twenty Five, we've got this mass deportation, racism. it's horrifying to I think the vast majority of the country, but it is at least a vision and it's a bunch of changes, and so theoretically maybe it would make your life better. until and it Fran Quigley: And it's anti status quo. It's an anti status quo. Things are not okay. Yeah. Yeah. Jesse Brown: Exactly right. Right. And so I think right now Democratic Socialists, A, haven't had to run on the record just yet, 'cause we're all still pretty new. and B are the only game in town when it comes to a non fascist who has some sort of anti status quo vision. but you could imagine others in the future. And so I think that if, you know, you know, for example, in Indiana, like Greg Ballard is now running and he'll be on the Lincoln Party and it's some new party I haven't seen anything visionary or inspiring enough to make me think that party is gonna do well. But I think that, you know, you could have other non-socialist anti-status quo messages that would then I think compete and make it a lot tougher to win elections without that kind of structural reform. Because as as I mentioned, Donald Trump was this anti-status quo person, but also heavily financed by the billionaire class, right? And so, you know, if if to an average, not very politically educated person you're hearing ten times as many messages due to the money behind it, over here and only one of the messages over here, you're more likely to go to where you just have heard the most about it. So yeah, so I don't think we can ignore these structural problems. I just think that we can start working now to address them. Fran Quigley: Right, right. Right. Yeah. No, that's that's a great point. And so with these wins, the the you certainly hear a lot of the pundit class and the and the and the big money c corporate lobbyists, etc., saying, Okay, well sure there's a lot of wins in New York and Seattle and LA, et cetera, but that's not gonna sell in most of the country. And you're you represent an urban district, but obviously an Indiana urban district, and I I'm When I hear that, I'm also remembering what a a tenant organizer in Kentucky told me. And this is somebody who organized in very white-dominated, low-income, white-dominated working class, white-dominated trailer parks and things like that. He said, The line between somebody with a Trump flag in front of their trailer and them becoming a socialist is a very, very, very porous line in that they're angry. They know the system's not working for them. Jesse Brown: Yes. Fran Quigley: They know it's not fair and that others are getting over while they're getting screwed. So, you know, and I know you've been doing I you represent an urban district, but it is in Indiana, and you've been doing some organizing and and advocacy throughout the state in in frankly the rural areas that are supposedly not possible for democratic socialists to win. And we should say, taking a half step back, five years ago, folks would have said any place in in the United States is a place where democratic socialists can't win. So so what's the case for democratic socialism in non urban settings and in non-large urban settings. Jesse Brown: Yeah, I mean, I think that you have to go back to what socialism is defined as, which is us all collectively solving our problems, right? And so you don't have to agree with every single thing that passes in New York City. I did go, I was knocking doors up in a small town in House District thirteen, which is one of the most rural, most red areas of the state, and one person I talked to who did not like the idea of democratic socialism said, Well, gosh, we don't want to be New York City over here Fran Quigley: Well, I think. I really think. Jesse Brown: And I was looking around and you know, the tallest building in site was a one story house. And so it's like, well I don't think that's that's a reasonable, you know, like that's not gonna happen no matter what anybody tells you. If anyone says we're gonna turn Fowler, Indiana into New York City, you know, they are they are lying to you. but, you know, like New York City, I'm sure that you could come together with your neighbors and talk about resources that you wished you had, or, you know, programs or education or you know, rural hospitals or Fran Quigley: Ha ha Yeah. You're safe. Jesse Brown: childcare options and we could do a better job of putting resources towards those needs that you collectively decide on rather than what lobbyists and you know the politicians that they buy off select for us. And so, you know, it could be that a rural socialist might come up with some programs, for example, opposing some of the wind farms that have gone up in rural Indiana. Even though, you know, like you know, socialists, we support the Green New Deal, we support renewable energy. Fran Quigley: Yeah. Jesse Brown: But to local people, sometimes that's this is a big out of state company coming and just profiting off of us in an extractive way and we don't see any of the benefits here locally. And so it could just be we ban wind projects until and unless we get partial ownership stakes of them and we all get a discount on our electric bill sufficient, you know, to make it worth our time. And so, yeah, I I don't think we socialism is not working backwards from a predetermined conclusion. It really is up to the people what they want. And within the bounds of solidarity and mutual respect for minority rights, both in terms of political minorities and in terms of ethnic religious minorities, right? 'Cause we've seen in America, especially in Indiana, some very populist positions that were not at all socialist and not great for black people, for example, or, you know, trans people currently. So there are some guardrails, there are some kind of you have to Fran Quigley: Right, right. Right. Jesse Brown: agree to a humanist perspective I think. but other than that, I think we should be able to explore the ways that local people choose to run their government and should be supportive of it. Fran Quigley: Yeah. And and talking about how folks will run their government, I do think it's some folks who are somewhat sympathetic to the ideals of democratic socialism. And you mentioned your own background and interest in this comes from your your faith lessons and that that certainly cuts across and I'll go we'll go ahead and put in the in in the show notes, somebody we know wrote a book about religious socialism. So but but the whole point was that there's there's folks who feel that their Muslim faith directs them to socialism. Folks who feel like Buddhism and Judaism, etc., all direct them to socialism because but then the the response sometimes is that's all well and good if in an ideal world, but that's not really practical. And this that that socialism just doesn't work in reality because people are far too selfish and and the the logistics of of creating that kind of a state is is too is too odorous. And and again hopefully we'll see in New York City and other places where Democratic Socialists are starting to win. As you mentioned folks at some point are going to have to run on their record and and hopefully they'll have a good record of success to to run on. But but can you give some examples either at any level at at at at the micro level and the macro level, nationally, locally, et cetera, of socialism where you found it works really well and it has proven that it's mo not just ideal, but practical as well. Jesse Brown: Yeah, I think that's a great question, a great lead up. And you know, I think that in order for people's I would say they're naturally self interested, right? Not necessarily naturally or naturally selfish, but they do pursue their own interests. You know, people are very unlikely to sacrifice their own children to help strangers, right? and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. but people have to see the stakes and have to see that they actually get better improvements by working collectively than they do by trying to be a free rider or be be super selfish and undercut the movement. And so I think that well run labor unions can be a really great example in action of this working. And so, you know, anybody watching this, I'm not saying that Teamsters one thirty five is an overtly socialist organization, but whether they use that label or not, I think that they are actually a really spectacular example that we should all be looking towards because their current leadership is people who are currently or were formerly I should say in the rank and file, who saw kind of frustrating things about their union and their leadership, kind of saw that they were a little bit in too cozy with the bosses we'll say, too comfortable with the status quo, not really willing to shake things up and fight. And so they ran for union office under the banner of members first. So we are gonna take care of each other, take care of members, and improve our quality of life first and foremost. And everything else flows from there. And you know, they've they've just focused on core fundamentals. So it's stand in solidarity with anybody. So I've been out on a picket line with that union for a 14 person bargaining unit who was not getting a good contract. So they brought this, you know, the the whole locals leadership and organizers in to walk the picket line. Fran Quigley: Wow. Jesse Brown: for you know fourteen mostly black workers at an urban job site and this is a union of you know over thirty five thousand members so Fran Quigley: It it it they call it's Teamsters Local one thirty five, right? Yeah. Jesse Brown: That's right. Yes. you know, and so you know, they do mass pickets, they do frequent strikes, and they practice democracy within their union. So they have big open bargaining sessions and you know, this is something I didn't quite enunciate earlier, but you know, socialism doesn't just magic resources out of the air and it's not just the case that you know, we create a bunch of programs and just assume there will always be some billionaire who we could reach into their pocket and take the money. It's all about negotiation, right? And so this amazingly powerful thirty five thousand person labor union still can't just say, well now, you know, the workplace will make zero profits moving forward and instead they have to give everything to the workers. Like the boss would not agree to that deal ever, right? And so what they'll do is a big open bargaining session where there'll be fifty Teamsters in the room watching the negotiations. And so at the end of the day, they know there's no chance that union leadership or bargaining committee sold them out because they were all in the room. Fran Quigley: Yeah. Jesse Brown: And they all kind of collectively decided, is this a good enough deal? Do we want to fight over it? You know, where's our line? Where do we want to spend our resources right now? And even though that doesn't mean that they get everything that they want or get perfect contracts every time, they sure as heck get a lot better contracts and win a lot more fights than if they weren't organized this way. And so, you know, members of the union, whether they voted for Trump or have never voted in their lives, still can see their self-interest is aligned with participating in this union because we all get stronger when we all get stronger. And so you know, that that's just what a union should do. And I think that's what a socialist, you know, unit of government should do is just open the doors, show the negotiations, ask the rank and file or the constituents, should we take this deal or should we fight? You guys let us know. You know, we'll we'll follow you either way, but we're gonna do it together and we're gonna decide collectively. in terms of political place. I think Louisville, Kentucky, is doing amazing work. And I don't see a lot of national media called out. So sorry if I'm blowing up your spot, comrades, but comrade of mine, JP Lenninger, is also a curly haired white guy with a mustache, government first name Jesse, socialist municipal elected official from just one state south. just down the road, just down I-65 from us here. Fran Quigley: Yeah, just down the road. Jesse Brown: And you know, he ran for office and it was a very similar campaign to mine, a very kind of insurgent, anti status quo, but he did a better job than I did even of just emphasizing he had a phrase like, I'm just a guy. Yeah, he was just like, I'm just some guy, I'm not anybody special or important. The important people are all of us together. It's when we work together that we can actually change this system to actually be focused on our needs instead of corporate profits or developer profits, et cetera. And so he's done a great job in office of carrying that out. And you know, I'm jealous because he gets actual staff people or a staff person, unlike me, but in a small budget. But, you know, he's been able to set up big town halls, big open budgeting sessions where, you know, like let's talk about what the city budget should look like. What do you want me to fight for? He still only gets the one vote for now, but his constituents really love him because they feel like they are co-owners of his government seat and co-participants in making the decisions that he makes. And so that has led to a really strong grassroots network of DSA supporters who have now you know they've they've done a really great job and had several other local comrades proceed through in municipal elections. And also Robert Lavertis Bell, who is former rank and file teacher, was ran one of the most inspirational kind of class struggle campaigns and like has has run twice and come you know razor close to winning. finally won by a commanding lead actually a state house seat. So now there will be a black rank and file teacher organizer socialist in the Kentucky State House. And so you know, like they're building a really great multiracial coalition of working class people who are collectively coming together, figuring out what they want to do and then doing it. And sometimes that looks like working with the amalgamat which runs their bus system. Fran Quigley: wonderful. Jesse Brown: to make improvements that help both passengers and coach operators, right? So the drivers and the passengers are united front fighting for better bus system. something we could certainly use here in Indianapolis. So, you know, like really it's squad goals. I just am looking at Louisville all the time trying to figure out how can I be more like them. Fran Quigley: Well l let me I am interested on on a personal level for you because the way you describe democratic socialism and and democracy is you know, the chant is this is what democracy looks like, but the what you what you describe with the Teamsters, what you described in Louisville is a whole lot demands a lot of humility by the folks who happen to be in a position of Being the bargaining agent or the city council or the state representative or the mayor, et cetera. So on a personal level, how do you navigate that challenge of, you know, you are a big shot, you're an elected official, you're one of just a couple of dozen in in the city of Indianapolis. You do have power that that most of us do not. And obviously, we've seen lots and lots and lots of incidents of of abuses of that power, some major and criminal and some just minor and and maybe a little bit less. odious but still harm harmful to the idea of democracy. So how how do you discipline yourself and in what's your journey in trying to be, you know, led by your constituents rather than the the leader of your constituents? Jesse Brown: Yeah, that's great. And I think it is something no elected official should ever feel like, I've got this handled. Don't need to worry about this anymore. I think it should always be a very real concern. 'Cause again, as socialists, we should be studying the structural features of the system. And structurally, there are a lot of things that are set up to make elected officials feel like they are the important people, they're the bee's knees, that constituents don't even know what they're talking about. Really we can't waste our time in the weeds arguing with them. And so, you know, we should always be on guard against that kind of narcissism and self centeredness. you know, I it helps that I'm just a naturally very anxious person who second guesses myself a lot and is a perfectionist. Fran Quigley: Well it's good to have anxiety work work in our favor. Good. Jesse Brown: Yes. but also I really credit my experience working in a call center at Angie's list. because I was first on just kind of the floor and then went to the escalation team and then eventually became the person who not only trained call center agents, but also handled the most highly escalated and frustrated customer calls from the whole country. And so it was a great experience because it taught me that when someone is upset they are almost never upset with you personally. They barely even know you personally, if they do at all. They're upset about not being able to access resources or not knowing what the solution is to their problem. And so even if someone comes in hot or, you know, is very like, you know, trying to blame the individual person they're talking to, the elected official they're talking to, I think I'm a lot more able than most to say, okay, I hear your anger and I know you're pointing at me. And like try to do the kind of like Jedi mind trick of like suddenly turning around now I'm on the same side of the table as them and we collectively are trying to solve the problem. And I'm really good at winning over detractors and getting them to be on my side because what I'm actually doing is I'm getting on their side, right? Like I'm figuring out what they need and trying to work for them. also I read a bunch of management books and the socials with a bunch of management background but all the management books that I really liked taught me that feedback is a gift. Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Jesse Brown: And, you know, I think they could make a really compelling case in short order by saying anybody has the right and the ability to just sit over a beer and talk badly about you, right? So they could just talk about how annoying you are as a politician, how frustrated they are with your decisions. you know, they're they're basically hurting your reputation out in the community and you don't even get to know about it, right? They're just doing that behind your back because they don't even see fit to reach out to you. so really, even if they write you an email saying You know, you suck. I really hate everything you do. you know, sometimes it's not super actionable in the first message. But they're granting you a gift of being able to understand their feedback a little bit more. And so I consistently will try to, you know, I'll get like fifty emails and maybe twenty of them are saying, Hey, great job, Jesse, you know, we appreciate it. and then, you know, maybe one of those and you know, the rest are constituent requests or whatever, one person's just super frustrated. I will always prioritize that person and say, Hey, can we get a coffee? Fran Quigley: Yeah. Jesse Brown: You know, y I'll buy your coffee if you the only thing I ask going to return is you just let me know exactly where I've dropped the ball and why you're upset with me. And you know, there there are times when after that conversation, I don't think I've done anything wrong and I'm not gonna change anything. But I at least better understand the narrative that was going through their brain. Maybe I've convinced them that I didn't do anything wrong, or maybe not, but at least I've thought through and and I don't have to have anxiety about this. I just have already addressed it head on. A lot more often Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Jesse Brown: I had good intentions, but it was coming across differently than I expected to. And so I can learn how to incorporate some of this critical or negative feedback into doing a better job. and also, you know, the added benefit of be focusing on the negative, focus on the haters is that when there get to be more haters, I notice, right? Because they're not just going into a spam folder. I'm like, wow, I've I'm having six coffees this week. I must be really screwing something up. And so that causes the self-reflection and pivot that is necessary. Fran Quigley: Like Ha ha Yeah. Jesse, this is great. I I have about fifty more questions, but I think that our listeners and you deserve to to have a break. And if you don't mind, we'd love to have you come back on on the show. with with this theme for today of being at least introducing the question of are you possibly already a democratic socialist? What would you suggest folks take away? They've listened to this conversation. They say, Hey, this Jesse Brown guy seems like he's Jesse Brown: Ha ha. Sure. I'd love that. Fran Quigley: knows what's going on. I love what I see from Mondani, et cetera. You know, what should people be reading, listening to, who they should be following? We're going to put in the show notes how folks can get your newsletter, which is weekly, correct? Right. And your weekly newsletter, how they could sign up for that. do what other, what other sources of information do you suggest folks look into for do their own research? Jesse Brown: Yes. Yep. Yeah, I feel like anybody who hasn't yet read the Jacobin magazine, I think that's a pretty good kind of pop culture magazine. They'll have everything from movie reviews from a kind of socialist perspective to general political conversation. It's a little bit like navel gazy. I think I think for the folks listening to this podcast, and I love this podcast, so I'm self identifying here, I think Jacobin will be a good pitch. for people who are less interested in getting into the weeds, I would say just like Go look up Bernie Sanders speeches. You know, really I think Bernie does a great job of just distilling down into simple language and with repetitive, important phrasing what the exact goal is here. I just listened to a really interesting interview that Zaran Mamdani had with Bernie Sanders, and the interview was recorded, I wanna say, in November or December before Zaran took office. but Bernie talked a lot about his experiences governing in Burlington. I thought it was really useful and interesting. I think that there are a lot of really interesting socialist kind of YouTubers and and and kind of small scale media outfits. You know, he's somewhat controversial among people over forty, but Hassan is you know, apparently just like winning elections single handedly and like every young person is in love with him, so it's worth probably at least looking into some of his stuff and seeing if it resonates. and then I think just generally, you know, looking at what messaging is coming out of the people running for office near you who are running on a democratic socialist label. you know, like all human beings, we have differences in quality and differences of opinions, but what we all have in common is that we collectively work with a movement in order to figure out what is effective messaging and what are resonant issues. And so you know, start with the individual and then work broader from there. Fran Quigley: Okay, well that sounds like a good a good place to to jump off for now. And again, we'd love to have you come back and talk more about these things and answer some of my 49 remaining questions that I have. But thank yeah, that's great. Well thank you, Jesse Brown, for joining us, and thank you, of course, to all of the folks who are listening. And until our next episode, please remember that we can end poverty in our time. We can do better. Jesse Brown: I'd be totally happy.