Latest / The Kathie Owen Perspective Podcast / 304. Everyone Did Their Job. People Still Got Hurt

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304. Everyone Did Their Job. People Still Got Hurt · The Kathie Owen Perspective Podcast

• 0:00
  Kathie (2): Have you ever worked somewhere that looked healthy on paper, but somehow people kept getting hurt?
• 0:06
  Kathie (2): Human resources followed policy, legal followed procedure, managers followed the handbook, executives approved the decisions.
• 0:15
  Kathie (2): Everyone did exactly what they were supposed to do, and yet good employees burned out, great people quit, trust disappeared.
• 0:26
  Kathie (2): Nobody intended to create a toxic culture.
• 0:30
  Kathie (2): Nobody woke up wanting to harm another human being.
• 0:33
  Kathie (2): So what happened?
• 0:35
  Kathie (2): Well, that's what we're talking about today.
• 0:39
  Kathie (2): Welcome to the Kathie Owen Perspective podcast.
• 0:42
  Kathie (2): My name is Kathie Owen.
• 0:43
  Kathie (2): I'm a private workplace consultant specializing in human diligence inside founder-led and private equity-backed companies.
• 0:52
  Kathie (2): I study what happens to people under pressure and the hidden patterns that quietly shape leadership, culture, and enterprise value long before they ever show up on a balance sheet.
• 1:05
  Kathie (2): Today's conversation comes from chapter nine of my book, The Truth Bubbles Up, titled"The System Worked Exactly as Designed." When I first wrote that chapter years ago, I thought it was about lawyers.
• 1:19
  Kathie (2): Today, I don't think it is.
• 1:21
  Kathie (2): I think it's about systems More specifically, I think it's about something psychologists call moral disengagement.
• 1:30
  Kathie (2): If you'd like to read the entire chapter, I'll include a link to the book in the description below.
• 1:36
  Kathie (2): Let's dive in.
• 1:37
  Kathie (2): One of the oldest leadership stories I can think of isn't found in a business book.
• 1:43
  Kathie (2): It's the story of Pontius Pilate.
• 1:46
  Kathie (2): Whether you view that story as history, theology, or simply a timeless illustration of human behavior doesn't really matter.
• 1:55
  Kathie (2): The pattern is the same.
• 1:57
  Kathie (2): Pilate famously washed his hands.
• 2:00
  Kathie (2): He didn't personally carry out the sentence.
• 2:02
  Kathie (2): He simply allowed the system to continue.
• 2:05
  Kathie (2): He stepped back from responsibility.
• 2:08
  Kathie (2): That's what fascinates me, because I've seen the exact same pattern everywhere.
• 2:13
  Kathie (2): I've seen it inside families.
• 2:15
  Kathie (2): I've seen it inside courtrooms.
• 2:16
  Kathie (2): I've seen it in hospitals.
• 2:18
  Kathie (2): I've seen it in corporations.
• 2:20
  Kathie (2): I've seen it in leadership teams.
• 2:22
  Kathie (2): I've seen it in organizations with beautiful mission statements and incredibly unhealthy cultures.
• 2:29
  Kathie (2): Everyone was doing their job, and somehow people still got hurt.
• 2:34
  Kathie (2): One of the biggest misconceptions we make is believing harm requires bad intentions.
• 2:40
  Kathie (2): It doesn't.
• 2:41
  Kathie (2): Sometimes harm happens because everyone else becomes responsible for a small piece, and no one remains responsible for the whole.
• 2:50
  Kathie (2): That is moral disengagement.
• 2:54
  Kathie (2): It's what happens when our role becomes more important than our humanity.
• 2:58
  Kathie (2): The attorney follows procedure.
• 3:00
  Kathie (2): The judge follows procedure.
• 3:02
  Kathie (2): Human resources follows policy.
• 3:04
  Kathie (2): The executive follows the chain of command.
• 3:07
  Kathie (2): Finance approves the numbers.
• 3:09
  Kathie (2): Operations keeps production moving, and everyone fulfills their responsibility.
• 3:15
  Kathie (2): But who owns the human cost?
• 3:17
  Kathie (2): That's the question, and it's the question I ask every time I walk into an organization.
• 3:23
  Kathie (2): One of the quotes from my book says,"When everyone owns a piece, no one owns the outcome." Think about that for a minute.
• 3:31
  Kathie (2): Departments become silos.
• 3:33
  Kathie (2): Information becomes fragmented.
• 3:35
  Kathie (2): Everyone protects their function.
• 3:37
  Kathie (2): Nobody steps back to ask,"What is the system producing?" That's leadership.
• 3:43
  Kathie (2): Leadership isn't simply making decisions.
• 3:45
  Kathie (2): Leadership is maintaining a connection to the human consequences of those decisions.
• 3:51
  Kathie (2): Executive presence isn't about confidence.
• 3:54
  Kathie (2): It isn't about charisma.
• 3:56
  Kathie (2): It isn't about commanding a room.
• 3:58
  Kathie (2): Executive presence is remaining psychologically connected to the people affected by your decisions, even when you're under pressure, and that's much harder.
• 4:11
  Kathie (2): Families do this too.
• 4:12
  Kathie (2): Everyone plays a role.
• 4:14
  Kathie (2): One person keeps the peace.
• 4:15
  Kathie (2): Another avoids conflict.
• 4:17
  Kathie (2): Someone becomes the fixer.
• 4:19
  Kathie (2): Someone becomes the scapegoat.
• 4:20
  Kathie (2): Nobody intentionally creates dysfunction.
• 4:24
  Kathie (2): The system simply teaches everyone how to survive.
• 4:27
  Kathie (2): Over time, those roles become automatic.
• 4:31
  Kathie (2): Workplaces aren't much different.
• 4:33
  Kathie (2): Every system teaches people something.
• 4:37
  Kathie (2): Some systems reward curiosity.
• 4:39
  Kathie (2): Some reward courage.
• 4:40
  Kathie (2): Some reward honesty.
• 4:42
  Kathie (2): Others quietly reward silence.
• 4:45
  Kathie (2): Others reward compliance.
• 4:47
  Kathie (2): Others reward protecting the status quo.
• 4:50
  Kathie (2): Every organization is teaching people how to behave under pressure, whether leadership realizes it or not.
• 4:59
  Kathie (2): Another quote from my book says,"The most dangerous leaders aren't always the ones with bad intentions.
• 5:06
  Kathie (2): They're the ones who stop seeing the people behind the process." That sentence took me years to understand because for a long time, I believed my own story was about individuals making bad decisions.
• 5:19
  Kathie (2): Eventually, I realized something much bigger.
• 5:22
  Kathie (2): Systems influence behavior.
• 5:25
  Kathie (2): Pressure influences behavior.
• 5:28
  Kathie (2): Roles influence behavior.
• 5:31
  Kathie (2): That doesn't remove personal responsibility, but it does change the questions we ask.
• 5:37
  Kathie (2): Instead of asking,"Who is the villain?" I now ask,"What conditions made this feel normal?" That's a completely different conversation, and it's a much more productive one too.
• 5:50
  Kathie (2): When I work with organizations, I don't spend my time looking for bad people.
• 5:54
  Kathie (2): I look for hidden patterns.
• 5:57
  Kathie (2): I ask questions like, who still feels the consequences after the meeting ends?
• 6:02
  Kathie (2): What behaviors does this culture quietly reward?
• 6:05
  Kathie (2): Who is allowed to tell uncomfortable truths?
• 6:08
  Kathie (2): Where has compliance replaced courage?
• 6:12
  Kathie (2): Where has policy become more important than people?
• 6:16
  Kathie (2): Because cultures rarely fall apart overnight.
• 6:19
  Kathie (2): They slowly disconnect from the human beings they're meant to serve.
• 6:24
  Kathie (2): One more quote from my book says, The system may be working exactly as designed.
• 6:29
  Kathie (2): The real question is whether it's producing the people you hoped to become." I think that's one of the most important leadership questions any executive can ask.
• 6:39
  Kathie (2): Not,"Is the process working?" But,"What kind of people is this process creating?" Because every system shapes human behavior, every single one.
• 6:52
  Kathie (2): That's why I call my work human diligence.
• 6:54
  Kathie (2): Financial diligence matters.
• 6:56
  Kathie (2): Legal diligence matters.
• 6:58
  Kathie (2): Operational diligence matters.
• 7:00
  Kathie (2): But if we ignore human diligence, we eventually pay for it somewhere else, in turnover, in disengagement, in fractured cultures, in broken trust, in failed mergers, in exhausted leaders, in people quietly checking out long before they ever submit their resignation.
• 7:19
  Kathie (2): Leadership isn't simply about getting results.
• 7:22
  Kathie (2): It's about understanding the invisible human patterns producing those results.
• 7:29
  Kathie (2): All right.
• 7:29
  Kathie (2): Thank you so much for spending this time with me today.
• 7:32
  Kathie (2): I trust that you found today's episode helpful.
• 7:35
  Kathie (2): If this conversation resonated with you, I'd love for you to subscribe, share this episode with someone who leads people, and leave a comment below.
• 7:44
  Kathie (2): Have you ever worked inside a system where everyone followed the rules, yet people still got hurt?
• 7:51
  Kathie (2): I'd genuinely love to hear your thoughts.
• 7:55
  Kathie (2): You'll also find links in the description below to my book, The Truth Bubbles Up, along with a companion blog post where I go even deeper into today's topic with additional leadership diagnostics, quotes, and resources to help you recognize these patterns inside families, teams, and organizations.
• 8:14
  Kathie (2): Until next time, keep observing because the truth always bubbles up.