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Killer Thriller: Murdaugh Murders · Legally Brunette

0:06
Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ.
0:07
Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your Host Alisa Donovan. Hey, everybody,
0:15
Speaker 2: welcome to the very first episode of the Killer Thriller Podcast.
0:21
Speaker 2: I am your host, Elisa Donovan, and I am so
0:24
Speaker 2: excited to start this journey. Killer Thriller is going to
0:28
Speaker 2: explore the dramatizations of real life crimes through the lens
0:32
Speaker 2: of the actors, creators, and the people whose stories make
0:35
Speaker 2: it onto the screen. And we're really going to dive
0:38
Speaker 2: into how real human behavior, often extreme and sometimes horrifying,
0:45
Speaker 2: can get transformed into character, performance, and narrative.
0:50
Speaker 3: And I cannot express how.
0:53
Speaker 2: Thrilled I am that Today this very first episode, we
0:56
Speaker 2: are going to speak with the creators of the Murdoch Podcast,
1:01
Speaker 2: Mandy Mattney and Liz Ferrell. These women are incredible journalists
1:07
Speaker 2: who broke open the case. So their podcast, the Murdoch
1:11
Speaker 2: Murders Podcast, is what inspired this series, Murdoch Death in
1:15
Speaker 2: the Family, and that is what we're going to be
1:17
Speaker 2: talking about today. Mandy is the executive producer of Murdoch
1:21
Speaker 2: Death in the Family, which is streaming on Hulu right now, and.
1:26
Speaker 3: Let's bring him in.
1:28
Speaker 4: Hi, Hi, how are you?
1:31
Speaker 3: I'm great.
1:32
Speaker 2: How are you.
1:34
Speaker 4: I'm really good. It's so nice to meet you.
1:36
Speaker 2: It is such a pleasure to meet you, Mandy. I'm
1:39
Speaker 2: me Lisa. I'm wildly proud to meet the two of you.
1:43
Speaker 2: And I really want to say how when we first
1:47
Speaker 2: started talking about doing this podcast, I said, we have
1:50
Speaker 2: to start with Murdoch Death in the family. That's what
1:53
Speaker 2: I want to start with, because you know this series
1:57
Speaker 2: of particular, it embodies to me everything that that matters
2:02
Speaker 2: about these sorts of stories. There is such an utter
2:06
Speaker 2: respect for everyone who's involved, and the drive to tell
2:09
Speaker 2: the emotional truth of the story and really diving into
2:13
Speaker 2: the nuance and the complexity of every person involved really,
2:19
Speaker 2: which I think is quite a feat somehow. Uh, you know,
2:24
Speaker 2: the family dynamics, the problems with growing up with generational
2:29
Speaker 2: wealth and no accountability, and the list just is endless.
2:33
Speaker 3: And so I'm.
2:34
Speaker 2: Really truly thrilled that you two are taking your time
2:38
Speaker 2: with me today.
2:40
Speaker 1: So thank you, thank you.
2:42
Speaker 4: That was thank you. That was so nice.
2:44
Speaker 5: And I have to say I watched Clueless last night
2:47
Speaker 5: just for a refreshure.
2:50
Speaker 3: Toeah.
2:52
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I meant to rewatch Sabrina the Teenage Witch
2:57
Speaker 5: because that was also one of my favorites when I
3:00
Speaker 5: was a little girl.
3:01
Speaker 4: So this is awesome.
3:03
Speaker 5: So we really appreciate all everything that you just said.
3:08
Speaker 5: It's been quite a feat, but we're here and we're
3:11
Speaker 5: ready to dive in all.
3:13
Speaker 1: So I just want to note that I saw Clueless
3:15
Speaker 1: in the theater, so.
3:18
Speaker 3: I love it. We're all old, but I'm a lot
3:21
Speaker 3: older than the two of you.
3:22
Speaker 4: That's your skin looks so good. I'm so jealous.
3:26
Speaker 2: Oh listen, a little tweak on the filter of zoom
3:30
Speaker 2: does like wonders for.
3:31
Speaker 1: All of us.
3:32
Speaker 4: I need to get that figured out.
3:33
Speaker 1: Well.
3:34
Speaker 2: I wanted to say first because it's top of mind.
3:36
Speaker 2: This is not what I was planning to start with,
3:39
Speaker 2: but I saw on Instagram last night, Mandy, your post
3:43
Speaker 2: that it was the anniversary of your brother's passing, and
3:46
Speaker 2: I didn't know that that piece was real from your life,
3:50
Speaker 2: that that part.
3:51
Speaker 3: Of that scene in the series came from you.
3:56
Speaker 2: I didn't know that. So first I wanted to just
3:58
Speaker 2: express my condolences to you. And I know grief is
4:02
Speaker 2: a very rollercoaster of a journey and it never really ends,
4:07
Speaker 2: and so I just want to send my love to
4:10
Speaker 2: you on that. But I also wondering if you are
4:13
Speaker 2: willing to just talk a little bit about that, And
4:17
Speaker 2: I think you were saying that Britney really helped to
4:20
Speaker 2: keep that in there.
4:22
Speaker 5: Yeah, gosh, And I thank you for asking that, because
4:25
Speaker 5: I've done a ton of interviews about murdoc death in
4:28
Speaker 5: the family and nobody has asked about that. And I
4:30
Speaker 5: really want to talk about that scene. I love that scene.
4:33
Speaker 5: It meant so much to me and I actually got
4:38
Speaker 5: to watch Brittany perform that scene. But circling back when
4:45
Speaker 5: I first met Britney and she first called me, when
4:50
Speaker 5: it was like a green light that it was for
4:52
Speaker 5: real she was playing me, which by the way, was
4:54
Speaker 5: like the most insane moment of my life.
4:56
Speaker 2: That was going to be my question later of like
4:58
Speaker 2: did you just completely freak O out when it was like,
5:01
Speaker 2: oh yeah, Britney, Snow's gonna be me.
5:03
Speaker 5: I mean, yes, I am a typical millennial girly, like
5:07
Speaker 5: I grew up watching John Tucker Must Die and Pitch
5:10
Speaker 5: Perfect and all of her hits, and I'm obsessed with
5:13
Speaker 5: her and I and also this we found all of
5:19
Speaker 5: us out before the Hunting Wives came out, and she
5:21
Speaker 5: like blew up again.
5:23
Speaker 4: Which I'm so happy that she did.
5:25
Speaker 5: She has the career that she deserves right now, and
5:28
Speaker 5: I just absolutely love her and could not imagine a
5:32
Speaker 5: better person to play me. And I really do mean that,
5:36
Speaker 5: and this story is a part of that. So she
5:40
Speaker 5: she wanted to call me the first time that we
5:44
Speaker 5: connected on Instagram, and she was like, I just want
5:46
Speaker 5: to get to know you. I want to have Margarita's
5:49
Speaker 5: with you and Liz, because she read that in my
5:51
Speaker 5: book that that's how Liz and I used to like
5:54
Speaker 5: dissect cases over Margarita's. She devoured my book and like
6:00
Speaker 5: days and when she called me, she knew that much
6:05
Speaker 5: about my life and was wanting to ask me questions
6:10
Speaker 5: about my brother's death, which was just, you know, surprising
6:14
Speaker 5: and really really refreshing to hear that she wanted to
6:20
Speaker 5: dive that deep into my character. You know, she wasn't
6:25
Speaker 5: just glossing over everything, and this wasn't a huge part
6:27
Speaker 5: for her. She wasn't a main role or anything, but
6:30
Speaker 5: she she not only knew the entire podcast, but she
6:33
Speaker 5: knew my story and there were I don't know how
6:38
Speaker 5: much I can say about this, but there was a
6:41
Speaker 5: lot of debate back and forth within Hulu about how
6:44
Speaker 5: much of a role I should have in the show,
6:46
Speaker 5: because I was also an executive producer, and I know
6:50
Speaker 5: that they were a little weird the higher ups about
6:54
Speaker 5: me having a storyline and how much of it. But
6:58
Speaker 5: Brittany advocated for the scene where I am at Steven's
7:03
Speaker 5: memorial and mentioning my brother's death, and the speech was
7:07
Speaker 5: actually longer and it was even better, and they cut
7:13
Speaker 5: some of it and it made her really mad and
7:15
Speaker 5: she fought really hard to get the whole thing in.
7:18
Speaker 5: And but my gosh, like to have as you know,
7:21
Speaker 5: as an actor, they don't have to do that much.
7:25
Speaker 4: They don't have to. They don't have to, but the
7:28
Speaker 4: good ones do.
7:29
Speaker 5: And I just was so grateful that I had such
7:32
Speaker 5: a good actor that cared so much about my story.
7:34
Speaker 5: And she actually texted me to apologize that the scene
7:38
Speaker 5: was cut.
7:38
Speaker 4: Like it was her fault, and I was like, oh,
7:40
Speaker 4: my gosh, no, But.
7:43
Speaker 2: I mean this is like welcome to Hollywood, you know, yeah,
7:47
Speaker 2: so frustrating in so many ways. There's so many beautiful
7:50
Speaker 2: things that come out of you know, this world, but
7:55
Speaker 2: sometimes it's like you watch something and as an actor,
7:58
Speaker 2: this has happened to be a million times I'm like, oh, that.
8:02
Speaker 3: Whole scene's gone.
8:03
Speaker 2: But when I come to the one where I was
8:05
Speaker 2: in the bathroom, you know, it's so like these things
8:08
Speaker 2: they really do, they're hard. It's like, you know, yeah,
8:12
Speaker 2: they say like killing your babies, but it's like a
8:16
Speaker 2: inevitably everything always serves the story, like that's the goal,
8:21
Speaker 2: and that lesson that piece of having to let go
8:24
Speaker 2: of certain things in order to drive something forward.
8:28
Speaker 3: You kind of over.
8:29
Speaker 2: Time see oh okay, I understand why they had to
8:33
Speaker 2: do that, you know, but that is a real challenge.
8:36
Speaker 2: So for both of you, this is one of my
8:40
Speaker 2: biggest questions of how how hard was it or enlightening
8:46
Speaker 2: or beautiful was it to watch these things both in
8:49
Speaker 2: the process but then the finished product of saying, you know,
8:53
Speaker 2: you got you women lived this in such a real way,
8:58
Speaker 2: and there has to be sort of a like how
9:03
Speaker 2: was it to watch these people embody these people that
9:06
Speaker 2: many of whom you.
9:08
Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, I don't think the first thing. That's so
9:14
Speaker 1: I still haven't gotten the connection here. But we used
9:18
Speaker 1: to sit and joke about this being a TV show
9:21
Speaker 1: one day the work we were doing, like and not
9:23
Speaker 1: with any sort of sense of it even though like
9:26
Speaker 1: hopes and dreams and like you do hope one day
9:28
Speaker 1: maybe that your work is that important or consequential that
9:31
Speaker 1: it does end up in that format. It just I
9:34
Speaker 1: still haven't I still haven't grasped that that, like Liz
9:37
Speaker 1: and Mandy like back then, I just want to like
9:39
Speaker 1: time travel and be like it's gonna happen.
9:42
Speaker 3: Actually a joke that like warms my heart.
9:47
Speaker 2: But I really feel like these are the things that
9:49
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm gonna don't want to get too woo
9:51
Speaker 2: woo about this, but I really do believe there are
9:53
Speaker 2: certain things that are meant to happen, certain people that
9:57
Speaker 2: are meant to meet, projects that are meant to go,
9:59
Speaker 2: like all of these kinds of things, and this clearly
10:04
Speaker 2: is something that it was meant to be.
10:06
Speaker 3: And you know, I've just rewatched as much as I could.
10:09
Speaker 2: I had already seen the series, but I rewatched most
10:11
Speaker 2: of it last night and this morning. And the scene
10:16
Speaker 2: towards the end where Mandy you and Mark and he
10:22
Speaker 2: he asks you if you feel guilty, and I felt
10:25
Speaker 2: the same way, like Britney's expression is like what you know,
10:29
Speaker 2: this sort of like of all the things that I
10:32
Speaker 2: could feel because it just feels so vital what the
10:35
Speaker 2: two of you did.
10:37
Speaker 3: But again, that nuance. This is something that I think
10:39
Speaker 3: this series.
10:40
Speaker 2: Does so beautifully is it captures that nuance of he
10:45
Speaker 2: can feel a little guilty, Like that's a real feeling
10:48
Speaker 2: for this man. Perhaps you know that because you don't.
10:52
Speaker 2: Nobody it's all so awful, but it's important to bring
10:59
Speaker 2: all the things to light, like the justice was served
11:03
Speaker 2: because of all of you.
11:06
Speaker 4: Well, thank you for that.
11:07
Speaker 5: And that scene is another really interesting tidbit that the
11:13
Speaker 5: writers obviously and that I never knew how you make
11:18
Speaker 5: a true crime and actual true crime into a TV
11:20
Speaker 5: show and like what needs to be factual and what changes.
11:25
Speaker 5: But our amazing creator and showrunner Michael D. Fuller always
11:30
Speaker 5: stuck to the concept of emotional truth and that was
11:37
Speaker 5: true throughout the show, and so there was always an
11:40
Speaker 5: emotional truth to every little part of the show, including
11:43
Speaker 5: that scene. And it was funny, like Mark Tinsley never
11:47
Speaker 5: asked me that question, but I actually got that question
11:49
Speaker 5: in a twenty twenty interview.
11:52
Speaker 3: In me know because I can imagine that, like what it.
12:00
Speaker 5: Was my first interview ever, and like I was so
12:06
Speaker 5: nervous and I had been interviewing with twenty two. I
12:10
Speaker 5: think it was like two hours, and it was I
12:13
Speaker 5: was just a nervous wreck, and then the last question
12:16
Speaker 5: was that and I just was like and home.
12:20
Speaker 4: I mean, thank god for everybody.
12:23
Speaker 5: I think that they did not include it in the show,
12:25
Speaker 5: but I kind of want that footage to see my face,
12:30
Speaker 5: my reaction because I was like, it was just like
12:34
Speaker 5: Brittany's like no, but they wanted to include somebody asking
12:37
Speaker 5: me that question because that was a real question that
12:41
Speaker 5: we got and we still to this day.
12:43
Speaker 4: Liz.
12:43
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't know about you, but I still
12:45
Speaker 5: get weird messages that are like, yeah, if you I got.
12:49
Speaker 5: I got a weird TikTok comment the other day that
12:52
Speaker 5: was like, if you didn't poke around and get into
12:55
Speaker 5: the Murdoch's business, then Maggie or Paul would be alive.
12:58
Speaker 1: Of the Lord.
12:59
Speaker 2: And I would love to take not that we want
13:02
Speaker 2: to give anybody the time of day who does these
13:05
Speaker 2: sorts of things on the other but I would love
13:08
Speaker 2: to take that like that idea, right, take it all
13:10
Speaker 2: the way to the end. Okay, great, So let's say
13:12
Speaker 2: you didn't do that the trail of other like deceit
13:17
Speaker 2: deception and death and pain and brutality that would have
13:21
Speaker 2: come anyway, It just would it would be a different
13:23
Speaker 2: shade of it. Like this man was was an abomination.
13:27
Speaker 2: He was doing horrible things and there was he was
13:30
Speaker 2: not going to stop doing those things unless someone prohibits him.
13:36
Speaker 3: So I just like that stuff makes me crazy.
13:41
Speaker 1: I think, well, that conversation that happened between Andy and
13:44
Speaker 1: Mark on screen happened between Mark and me behind the scenes,
13:47
Speaker 1: So I think that there's sort of like a combination
13:50
Speaker 1: had right, Yeah, there was a It was a concern,
13:55
Speaker 1: and not because of anything that I think, I mean, Bear,
14:00
Speaker 1: It's just it was just something that comes up. And
14:02
Speaker 1: I think that's what it's important about the way this
14:05
Speaker 1: show is handled, and it really honors the point of
14:08
Speaker 1: our journalism, which is that and this is how this
14:11
Speaker 1: podcast started, by the way that Mandy started this podcast
14:14
Speaker 1: to clear the to get the truth out there, to say,
14:17
Speaker 1: this isn't just a true crime story that you can
14:19
Speaker 1: fly in clever the most salacious aspects of and think
14:24
Speaker 1: that you got the story. And you certainly could do that,
14:26
Speaker 1: but with this case, there were so much more to understand,
14:29
Speaker 1: and Martinsley certainly understood it, which is that the entire economy,
14:35
Speaker 1: social economy, legal economy in that area relied on the
14:39
Speaker 1: Murdocks and was controlled by the Murdocks, and in the
14:41
Speaker 1: most silent of ways. So it's not like you can say,
14:46
Speaker 1: and you saw it in the conversation that Ellak had
14:48
Speaker 1: with his mother's caretaker. It's not a direct like I
14:52
Speaker 1: need you to lie for me. It's a you know
14:55
Speaker 1: it a lie for me. And you know, because I'm
14:58
Speaker 1: saying these things if you were to repeat them back
15:00
Speaker 1: and harassed you. So that's kind of what people in
15:03
Speaker 1: the area were dealing with. And we lived an hour
15:07
Speaker 1: and a half from Hampton, but we were in the
15:09
Speaker 1: judicial circuit, so we knew it was affecting law enforcement
15:13
Speaker 1: in our area as well. So it's something that I mean,
15:15
Speaker 1: eighty six years, one hundred years of this kind of
15:19
Speaker 1: informal rule kind of to capture that. I think that's
15:24
Speaker 1: the success of death in the Family because it's not
15:28
Speaker 1: just something that is about a dirty man who you know,
15:32
Speaker 1: exciting his staff and he kills his family. It's really
15:35
Speaker 1: just to understand the amount of pressure that was on
15:37
Speaker 1: that man and self created totally right, and why he
15:43
Speaker 1: would think that was a good solution to his problems.
15:59
Speaker 2: These things and so easily be sensationalized, and this show
16:05
Speaker 2: is not that. So I'm curious about how you both.
16:09
Speaker 2: I'm sure were you just approached by a million showrunners
16:13
Speaker 2: and writers and TV people going let me make your story.
16:17
Speaker 2: And how did you wind up with Aaron and Michael?
16:22
Speaker 2: I can tell you that cast from every obviously you know,
16:26
Speaker 2: Jason Clark and Patrisharquette and Brittany are so well known
16:30
Speaker 2: and so incredible. It's like a perfect cast. So how
16:35
Speaker 2: did you guys come to Michael and Aaron?
16:40
Speaker 5: So in twenty twenty one, Liz was working at the
16:45
Speaker 5: Sheriff's office when my husband and I started the podcast,
16:48
Speaker 5: but she was definitely with me behind the scenes for everything.
16:51
Speaker 5: For every phone call that I would get from weirdos,
16:54
Speaker 5: I would call them Hollywood weirdos like they write, and
16:59
Speaker 5: I would call her and like be like this guy,
17:02
Speaker 5: and she would be like, don't call them back, and.
17:09
Speaker 1: This little town girl like this.
17:14
Speaker 5: And they said the most insulting things to me, like
17:17
Speaker 5: they just thought that I. Yeah, they thought I was
17:20
Speaker 5: just this little small town journalist who had big dreams
17:23
Speaker 5: of living in New York. City and one of literally
17:27
Speaker 5: people said that to me and really just want and
17:32
Speaker 5: like they really thought I just wanted to get out
17:34
Speaker 5: of South Carolina. And I'm like, I really like it here,
17:37
Speaker 5: Like I don't like the politics, but like I live
17:39
Speaker 5: on a Hilton Head It's a nice area, right.
17:42
Speaker 4: I like my life here and I like what I do.
17:46
Speaker 1: I just.
17:48
Speaker 5: Anyways, we and my husband was amazing. My husband was,
17:55
Speaker 5: uh there is Covid was not full time working at
17:58
Speaker 5: the time, but he just kind of figured out how
18:00
Speaker 5: to navigate Hollywood.
18:02
Speaker 4: He was a genius about it.
18:03
Speaker 5: He would take phone calls with people just to like
18:06
Speaker 5: learn the language, see yeah, or learn like the linga
18:10
Speaker 5: that y'all use that like nobody else understands.
18:13
Speaker 4: He would take like spocan years, may see what it is. Yeah.
18:20
Speaker 5: And so we spent kind of a whole summer just
18:23
Speaker 5: taking meetings and phone calls from people, and and then
18:28
Speaker 5: in September of twenty twenty one, everybody was still kind
18:33
Speaker 5: of on the fence, like maybe I'll do a documentary,
18:35
Speaker 5: maybe I'll do a show.
18:36
Speaker 4: I don't know.
18:37
Speaker 5: In September twenty twenty one, when Alex Murdoch faked his
18:41
Speaker 5: little roadside shooting debacle, and that was just ridiculous.
18:45
Speaker 3: The story would not be crazy.
18:47
Speaker 5: Yeah right, it's whenever I say it out loud, I'm like,
18:50
Speaker 5: when that happened, it's so stupid. But when that happened,
18:58
Speaker 5: this story went from zero to two thousand, Like it
19:01
Speaker 5: exploded into the outer universe in a way that I
19:06
Speaker 5: had never seen anything before in my life. And so
19:09
Speaker 5: at that point, all of these people, all these documentary people,
19:14
Speaker 5: were like, it's go time, we.
19:15
Speaker 4: Need to we need you to sign and.
19:19
Speaker 5: Everybody was just kind of swooping in and hovering over
19:24
Speaker 5: us and pressuring us, and it was really weird. And
19:26
Speaker 5: at that point we decided to get an agent, this
19:30
Speaker 5: man named Neil Cohen, which I know people go back
19:33
Speaker 5: and forth about agents. He was at UTA at the time.
19:36
Speaker 5: He saved our lives because he, like these people were
19:41
Speaker 5: pressuring us, specifically documentary people were pressuring us to sign
19:46
Speaker 5: the sign away everything and be a consultant to them.
19:53
Speaker 5: And it was on a Saturday, and I will never
19:55
Speaker 5: forget and we and he was just calling and calling
20:00
Speaker 5: and was like you need to sign now. It's now
20:02
Speaker 5: or never, Mandy, and like and if you don't sign this,
20:05
Speaker 5: your career is over like those types of things. So
20:08
Speaker 5: we actually hired Neil in the first thing that he
20:11
Speaker 5: did was email this guy back on a Saturday. It
20:14
Speaker 5: is Saturday period. No one in Hollywood needs anything right now.
20:21
Speaker 5: That's so great, it's a Saturday period, and we were
20:25
Speaker 5: like hired. Anyways, Neil connected us with Aaron Lee Carr. Neil.
20:31
Speaker 5: One of Neil's clients was Aaron Lee Carr, an amazing
20:35
Speaker 5: documentarian and Liz and I had been watching her documentaries
20:40
Speaker 5: for years and Liz, what was your.
20:42
Speaker 3: Reaction which documentaries she done?
20:46
Speaker 1: Well, Heart's of Gold was the one that really pushed
20:49
Speaker 1: me over the edge. Mommy Dead and Dearest, which I
20:52
Speaker 1: believe that's what it's the Gypsy Lee Rose story.
20:57
Speaker 4: There was another one, Mandy, I Love.
21:00
Speaker 1: God, I love you now Die is so good. If
21:02
Speaker 1: you haven't seen it.
21:03
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I didn't realize.
21:05
Speaker 4: So that britneyears, Yeah, Britney versus spears.
21:10
Speaker 5: So we knew her from all of it because we
21:13
Speaker 5: were like obsessed with these documentaries that she'd done, and
21:16
Speaker 5: we had talked about them all at great length with
21:19
Speaker 5: each other, and I remember being so nervous to meet
21:22
Speaker 5: her for the first.
21:23
Speaker 4: Time, and.
21:26
Speaker 5: When I first met her, it was originally we were
21:28
Speaker 5: talking about doing a documentary, but Aaron got the idea of, like,
21:32
Speaker 5: I want to do something besides document what if it
21:35
Speaker 5: was a scripted show. And then through that she met
21:39
Speaker 5: Michael D. Fuller, who is not only a great guy
21:43
Speaker 5: and a really great writer, but he's from South Carolina.
21:47
Speaker 5: And so that combination of and I knew that Aaron
21:51
Speaker 5: could tackle really really difficult true crime stories, specifically involving women.
21:58
Speaker 5: I knew that she was not in a She was
22:01
Speaker 5: not in the true crime space of like who done it?
22:05
Speaker 5: You know, the swoop in boring stuffs. She was really
22:10
Speaker 5: good at very complicated cases and staying factual and staying
22:14
Speaker 5: victim focused. And the combination of Michael and Aaron it
22:18
Speaker 5: just felt different. It was just like from all of
22:21
Speaker 5: the phone calls that we had that summer and everybody
22:23
Speaker 5: else was just so exhausting and so typical Hollywood quote unquote,
22:29
Speaker 5: Michael and Aaron were just refreshing and kind. And it
22:35
Speaker 5: wasn't until last year that it was actually greenlit in
22:38
Speaker 5: September twenty twenty four, and then the ball just went
22:42
Speaker 5: rolling and Liz and I a year ago I think
22:45
Speaker 5: this week we went to LA and saw the writer's.
22:48
Speaker 2: Room, Jason Clark is, I don't even I have no words,
22:54
Speaker 2: like next level this man's performance, it's like an arc
22:58
Speaker 2: of a madman, like you actually see. I just he's
23:03
Speaker 2: incredible in this show on every level. Everybody's wonderful, but
23:08
Speaker 2: I am just I was like blown away by him.
23:11
Speaker 1: You can't take your eyes off of him. It's captivating
23:14
Speaker 1: and it really is true to who Elec was to
23:18
Speaker 1: some people. That energy that you know, I want to
23:22
Speaker 1: see what he does next because it's going to be
23:24
Speaker 1: not great but.
23:27
Speaker 4: Interesting. Yeah, that like energy.
23:30
Speaker 1: Because Mandy and I first saw him in person during
23:34
Speaker 1: Paul's first hearing in twenty nineteen, and the way he
23:39
Speaker 1: came onto the scene was exactly as we both expected
23:42
Speaker 1: him to, but even more so so he was a
23:45
Speaker 1: huge presence in this tiny courtroom and thought nothing of
23:49
Speaker 1: going up to the Beach family and shaking their hand
23:52
Speaker 1: as if they were at church and like this was
23:55
Speaker 1: no big deal, and clapping them, you know, on the back,
23:58
Speaker 1: and that sort of thing, and just it really, uh,
24:01
Speaker 1: Jason really captured that feeling. And you're right, it's like
24:05
Speaker 1: it's in af football. You just don't know how to
24:07
Speaker 1: describe it, but it's it's you get on a ride
24:11
Speaker 1: and you take it with him, you know, and.
24:12
Speaker 2: You feel like this is why another it's so brilliant
24:16
Speaker 2: because you see how this man is slowly losing control,
24:21
Speaker 2: like slowly unraveling, and then how that gets more escalated
24:26
Speaker 2: and the dynamic just becomes more extreme and his I
24:31
Speaker 2: just disincredible. So how did he come to the show,
24:35
Speaker 2: how how did he get involved?
24:37
Speaker 5: So with Jason, I'm I'm not exactly sure. I just
24:43
Speaker 5: remember a very chaotic period last year when Aaron would
24:47
Speaker 5: call me and say we were close to an actor
24:49
Speaker 5: and then it would fall through and we were not
24:52
Speaker 5: greenlit until we got Patricia Arquette. But I also loved
24:57
Speaker 5: that because she was the reason why it was great.
25:00
Speaker 5: Love that it was led Y's and she's number one
25:02
Speaker 5: on the call sheet, like Patricia.
25:05
Speaker 4: Was the queen of our show. Yes, and I absolutely.
25:09
Speaker 3: Love saying content that's what they call it, like.
25:11
Speaker 5: You casting content. Yes, it was casting contingent for a
25:14
Speaker 5: long time, and I remember, and I'll just say I
25:19
Speaker 5: can't say the names, but there was several big things
25:22
Speaker 5: that would come in and we would get really excited
25:24
Speaker 5: and be like, Oh, that's gonna be great, and then
25:27
Speaker 5: it would fall through. And that happened for a while,
25:30
Speaker 5: but then Patricia Arquette and then Jason Clark signed on
25:34
Speaker 5: pretty soon after Patricia, and I wrote that her. Yeah,
25:42
Speaker 5: I know, I do too, I really do. And she
25:45
Speaker 5: is also just so wonderful. So like, as much as
25:48
Speaker 5: we talk about how great Jason is in the show,
25:53
Speaker 5: we have to talk about Patricia, because Patricia kind of
25:56
Speaker 5: played the opposite of that, Like she played a role
25:59
Speaker 5: that was quiet, in a role that was like you
26:02
Speaker 5: can she was constantly doing these little movements that you
26:08
Speaker 5: could tell there was no space for Maggie in that household,
26:11
Speaker 5: and that there was. She just played that part so
26:16
Speaker 5: beautifully and eloquently. And so they were like the opposites
26:21
Speaker 5: of each other. He was this big, giant presence taking
26:24
Speaker 5: up all the air, and she was just her entire
26:27
Speaker 5: life revolved around him, and she slowly started to realize
26:31
Speaker 5: that that was the wrong move yet.
26:34
Speaker 2: Right slowly realizing all the things that I thought, this
26:38
Speaker 2: is my life to be actually looking around and realizing, oh,
26:42
Speaker 2: this is.
26:43
Speaker 3: What my life is.
26:45
Speaker 2: It's so I love that scene where she the two
26:48
Speaker 2: of them after the party and she's like, you think,
26:51
Speaker 2: I'm doing.
26:52
Speaker 3: These things for myself, you know, all of it. And
26:55
Speaker 3: I felt like there is.
26:56
Speaker 2: Something so identifiable to so many women to I identify
27:01
Speaker 2: with that feeling. You know, I throw dinner parties and
27:03
Speaker 2: do things, and I'm like, this is not for wait a.
27:07
Speaker 4: Second, invisible labor. Yeah, the labor is right.
27:10
Speaker 5: And that was Patricia's basically her whole role. So, I mean, uh,
27:15
Speaker 5: and Jason was wonderful and amazing, but Patricia I was
27:20
Speaker 5: just extremely impressed by not only she took her taking
27:25
Speaker 5: on the role of Maggie, but she did a lot
27:27
Speaker 5: of research into coercive control and what it's like to
27:31
Speaker 5: be in a relationship with a narcissist, and that is
27:34
Speaker 5: how she approached the role and I thought that that
27:36
Speaker 5: was so genius.
27:38
Speaker 1: She really.
27:40
Speaker 2: The nuance that she brought to it is really something
27:45
Speaker 2: because you see how there are so many moments where you,
27:48
Speaker 2: as a viewer, I felt, oh, this is when she's
27:51
Speaker 2: going to like really lose it on him, or she's
27:53
Speaker 2: going to and then swallows it. Yeah, that's what she
27:58
Speaker 2: like takes the next step, you know that stuff is
28:01
Speaker 2: and that's really how this is why this show is
28:04
Speaker 2: so great with.
28:06
Speaker 3: All the nuance of these people.
28:08
Speaker 2: And you know, you two are both very committed to
28:12
Speaker 2: putting the victims at the center of these stories, and
28:16
Speaker 2: so I feel like that's what this looks like. But
28:20
Speaker 2: you know, my question is what for you guys? What
28:23
Speaker 2: does that look like for you? And I this is
28:25
Speaker 2: probably part of it.
28:26
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I think this is part of it. This
28:30
Speaker 1: is like the end of it. The you know, a
28:33
Speaker 1: lot of times when we put victims in the center,
28:35
Speaker 1: they're actually in the background, but they're in the background
28:39
Speaker 1: with us. And I don't want to give away too
28:42
Speaker 1: much in life, but it's important that we are honoring
28:48
Speaker 1: what the victims want in terms of the type of
28:50
Speaker 1: coverage we do. We don't force them to you know,
28:55
Speaker 1: when I say force, we don't put them on the
28:56
Speaker 1: spot to come on the show and talk and explain
28:59
Speaker 1: themselves in anyone. We we very much consider how that
29:06
Speaker 1: we're acting on their behalf, I guess is the best
29:08
Speaker 1: way to say it. So there's things that we can
29:09
Speaker 1: do that they can't do because you know of an
29:13
Speaker 1: ongoing case or you know, family dynamics, and that was
29:18
Speaker 1: the case in the Murdoch family. Even there are people
29:20
Speaker 1: behind the scenes that we were, you know, talking with,
29:24
Speaker 1: who could not be out loud about their grief about
29:28
Speaker 1: Maggie and Paul because to do so would be an
29:30
Speaker 1: affront to the family. So I think sometimes victim centered,
29:34
Speaker 1: we're able to tell the victim story, but sometimes it
29:37
Speaker 1: takes a while to get there because what we're doing
29:39
Speaker 1: is the work of you know, where crime meets corruptions.
29:42
Speaker 1: So we're trying to make change and get these investigations
29:46
Speaker 1: looked at or.
29:49
Speaker 5: I don't.
29:49
Speaker 1: I hate to say shamed people, but we have Sometimes
29:51
Speaker 1: we have to shame people to do their jobs, and
29:53
Speaker 1: so that's for the victims.
29:55
Speaker 5: Yeah, what I'm saying, yeah totally, And yeah, I mean
30:02
Speaker 5: I just think about like with Maggie, her story was
30:07
Speaker 5: so forgotten for such a long time, and I actually
30:12
Speaker 5: really I liked that they ended up showing that Maggie
30:18
Speaker 5: did not like the Mandy character in the show, because
30:22
Speaker 5: that was true to form. Maggie blocked me on Instagram
30:25
Speaker 5: years ago.
30:26
Speaker 3: She did.
30:27
Speaker 5: Yeah, I know that she did not like for a
30:31
Speaker 5: fact that she did not like me, But I looked
30:32
Speaker 5: back to on that and I'm like, we could have
30:35
Speaker 5: been taking down the same monster together, you know, like
30:38
Speaker 5: it was we all had the same enemy at the
30:41
Speaker 5: same time. And I don't blame her for thinking that
30:43
Speaker 5: I was the enemy, because she was just trying to
30:45
Speaker 5: protect her kids, right.
30:46
Speaker 2: She's trying to preserve her family, her own life, like
30:50
Speaker 2: she's so deeply embedded in it.
30:53
Speaker 5: Right, And so that's another nuance that I had to
30:55
Speaker 5: think about and stop about. Like first, I was like, eh,
30:58
Speaker 5: I don't really like being uh, it's a little uncomfortable.
31:03
Speaker 5: But when I thought about it, I'm like, yeah, we
31:06
Speaker 5: were we had the same enemy all along, and it's
31:09
Speaker 5: just too bad. And I hope that that's a message
31:11
Speaker 5: for women that like, actually, just look at your husband.
31:13
Speaker 5: Your husband's fall not most women. Now.
31:17
Speaker 2: I have a great husband, right, so do I, but
31:20
Speaker 2: you know there are a lot that are not right.
31:22
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
31:23
Speaker 5: Like I look back on that, I'm like, huh, that's
31:26
Speaker 5: just so sad. And and that's where Maggie, unfortunately, like
31:33
Speaker 5: the entire series, just goes through this cautionary tale of
31:37
Speaker 5: what is happening to a woman when she realizes that
31:40
Speaker 5: she's married to a very bad man. And unfortunately, by
31:45
Speaker 5: the time she realized it, it was too late for her.
32:01
Speaker 2: And her sister. I was so moved by j Smith
32:04
Speaker 2: Cameron another. I mean, just like one of the best,
32:08
Speaker 2: the best, that position that she held, right of being
32:14
Speaker 2: the last person to the last conversation with her and
32:17
Speaker 2: sort of that guilt that she must feel. But how
32:21
Speaker 2: complicated that is. That It's like, you can't change you know,
32:27
Speaker 2: you can't change someone else's decisions. We can't make it
32:30
Speaker 2: for her. So even though I'm sure she witnessed so
32:33
Speaker 2: many things over the years in the dynamic of that
32:36
Speaker 2: relationship that it is a certain point you accept this
32:39
Speaker 2: is the choice my sister has made, and you kind
32:42
Speaker 2: of have to go with that. And you know, it's
32:49
Speaker 2: such a strange place to be of not endorsing, but
32:54
Speaker 2: then are you endorsing? Like I think about her, that
32:57
Speaker 2: sister a lot, and how what her pain must be
33:02
Speaker 2: like and how she goes through the world today.
33:07
Speaker 3: It's so yeah, it's complicated. Yeah.
33:10
Speaker 5: I know several murder victims friends at this point that
33:17
Speaker 5: they're and that their husband's the victims husbands killed them,
33:24
Speaker 5: and it is so sad, so profoundly sad to see
33:30
Speaker 5: them going through the process of grief and regret about
33:35
Speaker 5: like what could I have.
33:36
Speaker 4: Done, What did I miss?
33:39
Speaker 5: And then the men don't feel anything like they're not
33:42
Speaker 5: going through any of that at all. But the friends
33:44
Speaker 5: and the sisters and the people that really cared about
33:49
Speaker 5: these victims. I've just really noticed that in the past
33:52
Speaker 5: few years. It's just so incredibly sad because they are stuck.
33:56
Speaker 5: And I also don't know what the rate move is
34:00
Speaker 5: when you're in jas Smith Cameron's case, like, uh, Maggie's
34:05
Speaker 5: sister's case, rather what do you do.
34:09
Speaker 1: Well, especially because he went and lived with Maggie's family
34:12
Speaker 1: after the murder, so he in that part. I don't
34:16
Speaker 1: believe that I wasn't in the show.
34:18
Speaker 3: Yeah he did, Yeah I did. Yes, Yes, this is
34:22
Speaker 3: another it's like.
34:25
Speaker 1: My mind is yeah, it's it's like, yeah, yes, he
34:30
Speaker 1: wanted to, like, yeah, what's led. He wanted to He
34:34
Speaker 1: wanted to monitor them to see like if they knew
34:36
Speaker 1: anything about his relationship with Maggie I think.
34:39
Speaker 2: And also just his presence around them. And then again
34:42
Speaker 2: that abuse of the psychological abuse and the emotional abuse.
34:47
Speaker 2: They I'm sure just felt like, oh, this is a
34:50
Speaker 2: reminder I just need to stay in my place, right
34:52
Speaker 2: to not make waves.
34:54
Speaker 1: And you got to pretend to be the grieving husband
34:56
Speaker 1: and all that to make it difficult for them to believe.
34:59
Speaker 1: But ultimately, like his sister said on the stand, you know,
35:03
Speaker 1: I wanted to find out who killed my sister, and
35:06
Speaker 1: this man was excited about charges being dropped against Paul,
35:11
Speaker 1: and you know, it just it didn't add up. It
35:13
Speaker 1: didn't seem like he was looking yeah at all. And
35:18
Speaker 1: I think just ultimately the most important thing to her
35:21
Speaker 1: was her relationship with Buster, which I think the show
35:23
Speaker 1: captured beautifully, and just that sort of line that she
35:25
Speaker 1: had to walk with him.
35:27
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, right.
35:29
Speaker 2: I feel like one of the reasons I am so
35:34
Speaker 2: interested in doing this podcast is because I am fiercely
35:40
Speaker 2: curious about human behavior and how and why we do
35:44
Speaker 2: the things that we do, and the actors that are
35:50
Speaker 2: portraying these people there is I thought about how it
35:54
Speaker 2: is such an important service that they're doing, but like
35:59
Speaker 2: there's a real responsibility that they have when you're playing
36:03
Speaker 2: a real person in any situation, but certainly with cases
36:09
Speaker 2: like this where these people have gone through trauma, they
36:14
Speaker 2: are still either still going through it or the family is,
36:17
Speaker 2: and so what kind of extra responsibility do you think
36:23
Speaker 2: that they have towards you know, people that are that
36:27
Speaker 2: are still grieving, that are still seeking justice, that are
36:31
Speaker 2: still reporting these things.
36:34
Speaker 1: I think just when that's a conversation that I have
36:36
Speaker 1: with myself a lot and sometimes with Mandy two. But
36:39
Speaker 1: who owns the story is something that sticks with me
36:44
Speaker 1: a lot, and I know it's a conversation we had
36:46
Speaker 1: with Amanda Knox. You know, whose story is it's to tell,
36:51
Speaker 1: because the truth is, we are journalists who were working
36:55
Speaker 1: the case, so we have a story to tell, and
36:57
Speaker 1: this is our story, but it's also every single person
37:01
Speaker 1: that was represented in the show has a story to
37:03
Speaker 1: tell from their perspective as well. So I think we
37:07
Speaker 1: lucked out. And that's what makes the show so good
37:11
Speaker 1: is that every single I mean right down to the
37:14
Speaker 1: most minor roles, these people took their little seriously. And
37:19
Speaker 1: you know, even Ala sha Kella, who played me, like,
37:22
Speaker 1: there were moments I was watching her perform and I
37:24
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, I really do something like that.
37:26
Speaker 1: It's it's things that you don't pick up on I
37:29
Speaker 1: think about yourself. But I do think that there was
37:31
Speaker 1: a lot of philosophical conversation going on with the actors
37:35
Speaker 1: and themselves about you know, especially with Johnny and his
37:40
Speaker 1: portrayal of Paul. I mean that was like, he's my gosh, yeah,
37:46
Speaker 1: yeah he had to they had I mean they really
37:49
Speaker 1: Patricia Arquette had a character that was very difficult to
37:52
Speaker 1: play because nobody knew anything about Maggie.
37:55
Speaker 3: That's what I was going to say.
37:57
Speaker 2: She Yeah, there isn't really much to know about like nobody,
38:02
Speaker 2: nobody knew.
38:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, even her closest friends had trouble describing her. And
38:07
Speaker 1: you know, as we've said many times on our podcast,
38:09
Speaker 1: ELC basically just described her as a woman.
38:13
Speaker 5: On the pony literally the sand on the sand, he said,
38:17
Speaker 5: a woman and a mother of boys.
38:21
Speaker 3: Oh, and.
38:24
Speaker 5: He have all the things to mention about his lovely
38:29
Speaker 5: What you you would think that you would have, you know,
38:31
Speaker 5: things to say about your dead wife on the stand
38:34
Speaker 5: as you are fighting for your life right right, And
38:37
Speaker 5: you would think that you would like come up in
38:39
Speaker 5: your head at least a couple of nice sentences. But yeah,
38:43
Speaker 5: a woman, a mother of boys. And then he said
38:46
Speaker 5: she had a lot of hard times when she was pregnant, and.
38:50
Speaker 4: It's like he wanted more kids.
38:52
Speaker 3: What what?
38:55
Speaker 5: And it's like pregnant like twenty five years ago, why
38:58
Speaker 5: are you mentioning that?
39:00
Speaker 3: Right, Like, that's how he identifies.
39:02
Speaker 5: Her exactly, like this woman mother of my boys and
39:06
Speaker 5: couldn't have enough of my kids, so it's her fault. Unbelievable,
39:11
Speaker 5: Like and I don't even know what the what we
39:14
Speaker 5: were about Patricia.
39:16
Speaker 1: So it was like Maggie was kind of an enigma.
39:20
Speaker 1: And yeah, ultimately we know that's because he didn't give
39:22
Speaker 1: her space to really be her own person. And I
39:25
Speaker 1: think that conversation even with her sister on the way
39:29
Speaker 1: to Moselle or before going to Mozelle, it feels like
39:32
Speaker 1: they didn't have the kind of relationship. They had a
39:34
Speaker 1: really close relationship. They talked all the time, but there's
39:37
Speaker 1: a there's a bridge you're crossing when you tell somebody,
39:40
Speaker 1: especially your family member, that you're having relationship problems or
39:45
Speaker 1: and it's a point to take it back.
39:47
Speaker 5: Right Yeah, yes, a great and they're going to hate
39:51
Speaker 5: them forever. Yep, that's how everybody. That's kind of an
39:55
Speaker 5: unspoken thing that women all have to deal with. It's
39:58
Speaker 5: like once you tell your friends that you were in
40:01
Speaker 5: an abusive relationship and all the terrible things that your
40:04
Speaker 5: partner is doing, your friend is never going to forgive
40:07
Speaker 5: him for that, so you can't take it makes it
40:10
Speaker 5: real to Yeah, it makes it too real, right where
40:12
Speaker 5: you could just shove it to the side and let
40:14
Speaker 5: it eat you up inside, which I think was a
40:17
Speaker 5: lot of Maggie's personality.
40:18
Speaker 4: I think that he was just eating her up inside,
40:20
Speaker 4: right right, right.
40:23
Speaker 1: Yeah. She actually had cancer too shortly before she died
40:28
Speaker 1: and was was throwup cancer right yeah, yeah, yeah, when
40:31
Speaker 1: you think about the symbolism of that, right.
40:33
Speaker 5: Right, Oh my gosh, yeah, right, it was course.
40:38
Speaker 4: Yeah.
40:38
Speaker 5: And I think some of the best little stories that
40:41
Speaker 5: we got about Maggie that Liz got from her friends
40:46
Speaker 5: were from college before she really was in a relationship
40:50
Speaker 5: with Alex, so like I think that because they described
40:53
Speaker 5: this very bright and bubbly personality funny, what were other
40:58
Speaker 5: like silly?
40:59
Speaker 4: Uh, Yeah, she's kind of a different just a different person. Yeah.
41:05
Speaker 5: And Alex was the quarterback and was the big man
41:09
Speaker 5: on campus and just swept her off her feet and
41:14
Speaker 5: she never looked back.
41:16
Speaker 1: They tried to get her to stop dating him, and
41:18
Speaker 1: I think that that's the thing I don't talk about enough. Yeah,
41:20
Speaker 1: she had a little friend intervention in college where he
41:24
Speaker 1: was because he would have got rough with her, you know,
41:26
Speaker 1: but she she thought, you know, this was the guy
41:29
Speaker 1: for her. So it's just that that makes me so
41:33
Speaker 1: sad to think of myself at that age too. Like
41:36
Speaker 1: you you don't realize at that time in your life
41:38
Speaker 1: that you have so much left of it, exactly.
41:42
Speaker 2: It sounds like this is the beginning of the end
41:44
Speaker 2: or something, right, And they can't see outside.
41:47
Speaker 3: Of what's immediately surrounding.
41:49
Speaker 5: You, yeah, right, And especially at that time, like women
41:53
Speaker 5: were just basically told like college is like you're time,
41:57
Speaker 5: you gotta you gotta pick one you're going to be
42:00
Speaker 5: it's all actually.
42:00
Speaker 3: To be educated.
42:01
Speaker 5: It's Mason and there she was, and like I could
42:06
Speaker 5: also understand that when people, I think the churchier Arquette
42:10
Speaker 5: asked me, what do why do you think Maggie was
42:15
Speaker 5: attracted to Alex And I was, like, they started dating
42:19
Speaker 5: when they were nineteen twenty years old. So think of yourself,
42:24
Speaker 5: you right, Think of your little brain everybody had. I
42:27
Speaker 5: had a very tiny brain when I was nineteen and
42:30
Speaker 5: dated very terrible people. And it's fine now thinking back
42:35
Speaker 5: on it because my brain's developed, and I just thank
42:38
Speaker 5: God that I did not stay with those people, you know,
42:40
Speaker 5: like I, but Maggie had to stay with us, ended
42:44
Speaker 5: up staying with him for the rest of her life,
42:46
Speaker 5: and that was just it was kind of the way
42:48
Speaker 5: that And also I think sadly, I bet a lot
42:52
Speaker 5: of women envied her because she was marrying a Murdoch
42:57
Speaker 5: and she was marrying the big man on campus, and
42:59
Speaker 5: she was married this man that was so funny and
43:02
Speaker 5: full of life and had all this money and his
43:04
Speaker 5: family had all this power. I'm sure she was very
43:07
Speaker 5: much envied at the time, and then now you look
43:11
Speaker 5: back and it's just such a tragedy.
43:14
Speaker 1: Oh.
43:15
Speaker 2: I mean, this is I think why people continue to
43:18
Speaker 2: be so obsessed and interested in this particular case. You know,
43:25
Speaker 2: we're we're always looking I think for sort of to understand.
43:30
Speaker 2: That's what I'm looking for, right, Like I want to
43:33
Speaker 2: understand why or how, and and sometimes that is such a.
43:39
Speaker 3: Labyrinth of like you just can't. It's it's endless.
43:45
Speaker 1: And I think it's also about the accountability though, I
43:48
Speaker 1: think as a nation, when everyone is watching this, ye,
43:51
Speaker 1: I don't know that we're all used to seeing a
43:53
Speaker 1: man with Elex's power and pedigree. I guess we could
43:56
Speaker 1: call it be held accountable for something so heinous. Do
44:00
Speaker 1: you think that, like, when you're watching it, is that
44:01
Speaker 1: what you're getting from?
44:02
Speaker 2: Like I think that it's like I can't I can't
44:05
Speaker 2: believe it. I think that's what it sort of feels like,
44:09
Speaker 2: is oh my god, did he really?
44:11
Speaker 3: Is he really being held accountable?
44:13
Speaker 2: Now?
44:14
Speaker 3: Is that really happening? Because when you look.
44:16
Speaker 2: At you know, the whole the kids especially, I think like, well,
44:21
Speaker 2: these boys, that was their example of what it is
44:24
Speaker 2: to be a man, what it is to be a father,
44:26
Speaker 2: what it is to just live. They had no guidelines.
44:31
Speaker 2: It was like this is anything you do, we can
44:34
Speaker 2: if it's bad, we'll take it away.
44:36
Speaker 3: You don't have to be Like.
44:37
Speaker 2: That scene where Paul the first moment he's brought into
44:42
Speaker 2: court and all they do is arraign him, I think,
44:45
Speaker 2: is what's happening? And he just goes is it over now?
44:48
Speaker 2: As if like that's all I have to do.
44:50
Speaker 4: I just need to show up and now it's over right.
44:53
Speaker 2: It's so telling of and that's you know, his his
44:57
Speaker 2: performance also is so beautiful in that way, because you
45:02
Speaker 2: really do feel like I never thought I would have
45:05
Speaker 2: any compassion before I watched this series. I was like,
45:11
Speaker 2: this is a bad kid. He's spoiled, he's a train wreck.
45:15
Speaker 2: He's my worst nightmare. Like, I have no sympathy for
45:18
Speaker 2: this kid. And something about watching that you really see
45:23
Speaker 2: how he just had no help and then he was
45:27
Speaker 2: trying to keep friends, you know, and that sort of
45:30
Speaker 2: like now, it doesn't excuse him in any way for
45:34
Speaker 2: the things that he did, but it explains it, you know,
45:37
Speaker 2: it's a little bit of an explanation. And I think
45:40
Speaker 2: this is also the thing, like we all from the
45:43
Speaker 2: human standpoint, we all at a certain point have to
45:48
Speaker 2: grow up, and these like that.
45:52
Speaker 3: He never grew up. Alec never did.
45:56
Speaker 2: He just decided I don't have to, you know, It's
46:01
Speaker 2: it's really crazy.
46:16
Speaker 4: One of my favorites on set.
46:19
Speaker 5: I mean, he is a wonderful human being and an
46:24
Speaker 5: amazing person. So, Liz, you were with me on set
46:27
Speaker 5: when we when I met him for the first time.
46:30
Speaker 2: Did you meet everybody on set for the first time,
46:32
Speaker 2: or you met Brittany before?
46:34
Speaker 1: Yes, we met Britney before.
46:38
Speaker 4: It just would depend because.
46:40
Speaker 1: You're scared of Jon.
46:41
Speaker 4: So yeah, I literally never neither.
46:46
Speaker 5: Oh, he was terrifying on set, Like he never I
46:49
Speaker 5: never heard him speak in this Australian accent until the last,
46:54
Speaker 5: until the end, until the last scene literally ended, and
46:57
Speaker 5: he was done at like four o'clock in the morning,
46:59
Speaker 5: and then he started and I was like, I forgot
47:01
Speaker 5: your Australian. This is so weird because in between takes
47:05
Speaker 5: he would kind of curse like Alex, he would stomp
47:08
Speaker 5: around and get mad like he was just fully in character.
47:12
Speaker 4: So he was a scary.
47:14
Speaker 5: So every time, like we were both big fans of him,
47:16
Speaker 5: but every time it's like, oh, not now.
47:23
Speaker 3: Scrubs, but now John.
47:25
Speaker 4: Was in Scrubs.
47:26
Speaker 5: I just met him because he was playing the hospital scenes.
47:31
Speaker 2: And when he after the boat crash, yes, yes, So
47:36
Speaker 2: he is incredible in this that scene of like you
47:40
Speaker 2: feel you see, oh, he's the mini version. He's becoming
47:44
Speaker 2: his father, Like this boy is his father's son.
47:48
Speaker 4: Right, And I am the same way. I think one
47:53
Speaker 4: of the.
47:53
Speaker 5: Things that I struggle with in life is compassion for
47:57
Speaker 5: just bad people or for people that like people that
48:00
Speaker 5: hurt other people, I just have little compassion for. I
48:04
Speaker 5: have a hard time getting to a place of feeling
48:07
Speaker 5: sorry for them. So Paul was definitely a journey even
48:13
Speaker 5: after he died, like especially after in the two years
48:18
Speaker 5: after the boat crash, before he died. Pretty much all
48:21
Speaker 5: of the things that we ever heard about Paul Murdoch
48:24
Speaker 5: was that he was just this awful kid, spoiled, entitled.
48:30
Speaker 5: He was easy to hate, and I wrote about him
48:34
Speaker 5: in that light, and so did Liz. We both just
48:36
Speaker 5: kind of viewed him as the spoiled brat child who
48:42
Speaker 5: killed Mallory Beach and he should be held accountable and
48:46
Speaker 5: was not and was dodging accountability in our eyes and
48:50
Speaker 5: in It took talking to a lot of Paul's friends
48:54
Speaker 5: to understand that he did have a sweet and softer
48:57
Speaker 5: side and that he was honestly kind of like the
49:02
Speaker 5: black sheep of his family, and he was not little Alex.
49:08
Speaker 5: I think him and Alex fought all the time because
49:11
Speaker 5: Paul liked to question things and Alex was not about that.
49:16
Speaker 5: He buster would just nod his head and say, okay,
49:20
Speaker 5: that's our family, does it Okay, that's fine. Paul would
49:24
Speaker 5: just kind of say why. And I think that he really,
49:27
Speaker 5: I think that his mental health issues just got wildly
49:30
Speaker 5: out of control when he was a teenager and he
49:33
Speaker 5: would just try to ask questions about things, and his
49:36
Speaker 5: parents would not help him.
49:38
Speaker 4: Or would not guide.
49:39
Speaker 5: Him in the right way of and then they would
49:43
Speaker 5: completely shield him from all accountability. Like at school, he
49:47
Speaker 5: was never teachers knew that they were never allowed to
49:50
Speaker 5: get the Murdoch boys in trouble, so at school he
49:53
Speaker 5: could never get Yeah, they just created this bubble where
49:57
Speaker 5: it was impossible for them to grow up like normal kids.
50:02
Speaker 5: So Johnny's portrayal of Paul, I think was so incredibly
50:08
Speaker 5: brilliant because he got so many people to see that
50:13
Speaker 5: and to look past this person that was very easy
50:17
Speaker 5: to hate for a long time and see that he
50:21
Speaker 5: didn't have a chance and if he did have a
50:24
Speaker 5: chance of ever becoming normal, his father took that away
50:28
Speaker 5: from him because he died at twenty one years old.
50:30
Speaker 3: Yep.
50:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, has anybody from the Murdoch family or crew reached
50:37
Speaker 2: out to either of you since the show has aired.
50:40
Speaker 2: Have you heard from anyone?
50:42
Speaker 5: Oh?
50:42
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, I don't think I don't think so.
50:46
Speaker 5: I did hear from the friend of Randy's that they
50:50
Speaker 5: thought that Randy would like the show.
50:55
Speaker 3: So this is what I was going to say.
50:57
Speaker 2: There are some suspects of it that I feel like
51:02
Speaker 2: they would I mean, much of it.
51:05
Speaker 3: Sure, if they believe that he's in the center. They
51:07
Speaker 3: don't want that out there.
51:08
Speaker 2: Of course they're not going to like that. But I
51:11
Speaker 2: do think that the show creates fully realized human beings
51:16
Speaker 2: in all of them, and even you know, even Alec.
51:20
Speaker 2: He was an addict also again not an excuse, but
51:25
Speaker 2: a part of an explanation. And I think, you know,
51:29
Speaker 2: but again, you would have to then be willing to
51:32
Speaker 2: be accountable for your life. Like this is what is
51:36
Speaker 2: so fascinating to me too, the string of connection of
51:41
Speaker 2: every time we allow something like we let it go,
51:46
Speaker 2: it isn't just that then we take it on the inside.
51:50
Speaker 3: So it's like you take that with you.
51:51
Speaker 2: If you've allowed an injustice to happen, or you've allowed
51:54
Speaker 2: someone to lie or to cheat or to do something,
51:58
Speaker 2: you're taking that with you. You know, It's like it doesn't,
52:01
Speaker 2: it doesn't, we're not teflon.
52:03
Speaker 3: It sticks.
52:05
Speaker 2: And the more that you do that, then it starts to,
52:10
Speaker 2: you know, impact your life. And I feel like all
52:13
Speaker 2: of these people will forever be.
52:17
Speaker 3: Impacted by this, you know.
52:19
Speaker 4: Yeah, if there's no way to really.
52:22
Speaker 3: Move on, well, I mean, I hope everybody can move on,
52:25
Speaker 3: I guess, but.
52:26
Speaker 5: I don't yeah, yeah, I mean I think that this
52:29
Speaker 5: was all such a moment, and I think the saddest
52:32
Speaker 5: part of it is that our state, particularly the South
52:38
Speaker 5: Carolina Bar and the agency that police as lawyers in
52:43
Speaker 5: our state, has not learned their lesson of like we
52:48
Speaker 5: let this man gain so much power and spiral out
52:52
Speaker 5: of control, and nobody within our court system ever held
52:55
Speaker 5: him accountable for so many years, and he was able
52:58
Speaker 5: to steal millions of dollars because he was a lawyer,
53:00
Speaker 5: because he passed the South Carolina Bar allegedly.
53:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, I wonder about that too.
53:07
Speaker 5: No, they know, we have heard that man's phone calls
53:13
Speaker 5: when he talks about lawyer things, and it is ridiculous.
53:16
Speaker 5: He did not know what Habeas Corpus is apparently worried
53:23
Speaker 5: just watch, like, come on, it's not hard. He was
53:30
Speaker 5: just just not But it's just really upsetting that, like
53:34
Speaker 5: we have not used this moment as something to get better,
53:38
Speaker 5: to something to really change.
53:39
Speaker 4: I mean, Liz, you think that like some things have changed.
53:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we hear from attorneys in the fourteenth
53:46
Speaker 1: Circuit that they are now stricter about five So basically,
53:50
Speaker 1: when I say things have changed, they're doing what they're
53:52
Speaker 1: supposed to be doing in the base level, like the
53:54
Speaker 1: most basic. But overall, I don't think that things have changed.
54:00
Speaker 1: Do you think that, like like a little.
54:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, but everything moves at a snail's face,
54:07
Speaker 2: in particular the justice system, good.
54:10
Speaker 4: Lord and in South Carolina.
54:13
Speaker 3: And there, But it's has have you.
54:16
Speaker 2: I mean it sounds like that you were worn to
54:19
Speaker 2: be careful with even investing this at all in the
54:23
Speaker 2: first place. So were either of you ever afraid that
54:26
Speaker 2: they might retaliate against you or harm you.
54:29
Speaker 1: Or Yeah, I mean we were told they would and
54:33
Speaker 1: we were told to be very careful by you know,
54:35
Speaker 1: sources in law enforcement who told us that. So that
54:38
Speaker 1: part was disconcerting. Honestly, though I don't know that he was.
54:46
Speaker 1: I don't know if he's the person I feared. I think,
54:48
Speaker 1: you know, looking back on it, it's and maybe this
54:51
Speaker 1: isn't probably to say, but like the boat crash case
54:53
Speaker 1: itself with Mallory Beach, Stanley sued elc Buster and a
55:00
Speaker 1: number of other people, one of the parties was Parker's Kitchen,
55:03
Speaker 1: which is this billionaire billion dollar gas station committees stor
55:08
Speaker 1: Chine in Georgia and South Carolina. I'm honestly more afraid
55:11
Speaker 1: of him, the guy who owns that company, than in
55:14
Speaker 1: our coverage than I am. And I never thought I
55:17
Speaker 1: would say that, But like, there was a time when
55:20
Speaker 1: Mandy and I were in Hampton County interviewing a source
55:23
Speaker 1: in a heart ease, and somehow it must have cut
55:26
Speaker 1: out that we were there because we went to look
55:29
Speaker 1: at where Stephen was killed for the first time. We
55:32
Speaker 1: didn't stop. We just drove by, went down Stephen Street,
55:35
Speaker 1: turned around, and came back the other way. And as
55:38
Speaker 1: we were driving, I could see like in the distance
55:41
Speaker 1: this like silver STV coming toward us, long road, like
55:44
Speaker 1: you could see a long distance, and it slowed down
55:47
Speaker 1: as it passed us, and then hooked bangda yuis in
55:52
Speaker 1: Boston bed like he took a U turn and he
55:54
Speaker 1: went right behind us. And I have never felt like
55:58
Speaker 1: if you wonder, like what feels like in the moment
56:01
Speaker 1: where like your entire body like just sinks down to
56:04
Speaker 1: the ground, like it's just like So Mandy had to
56:07
Speaker 1: call one of our sources who is in law enforcement
56:09
Speaker 1: and keep them on the phone just in case, and
56:12
Speaker 1: that guy followed us until we got out of there.
56:15
Speaker 1: So yeah, it was like one of those things where
56:19
Speaker 1: it's really I think this is the.
56:21
Speaker 3: Thing that people don't understand.
56:23
Speaker 2: Like I have friends family in North Carolina, and I
56:26
Speaker 2: spent time in South Carolina and not just there, but
56:30
Speaker 2: these are very remote places often and people don't understand how,
56:35
Speaker 2: you know, they might think like, oh, well just drive
56:37
Speaker 2: away or just go to another when it's so insulated
56:41
Speaker 2: and so isolated, you really don't have, like you you
56:47
Speaker 2: can understand how these kinds of dynamics can control everything.
56:52
Speaker 2: And then it's like you're entering a different world where
56:55
Speaker 2: you don't you don't hold the same value.
56:58
Speaker 3: As you do in the of the world. You know.
57:01
Speaker 1: That's so you're noticed what fans of the show were
57:06
Speaker 1: like people who followed the case. When they come to
57:08
Speaker 1: South Carolina and decide to take a trip to Moselle
57:11
Speaker 1: or to Hampton, I'm just so curious about how that
57:14
Speaker 1: goes down, because it's I just they're I mean, they're
57:18
Speaker 1: immediately clocked. I'm sure, and Hampton to have to get
57:21
Speaker 1: used to that, but I just I often wonder if
57:23
Speaker 1: that's a pleasant experience for people. I don't see how
57:26
Speaker 1: it could be.
57:27
Speaker 5: It's well, it's so funny that you say that, Like, well,
57:29
Speaker 5: first of all, it was a cop that was following us,
57:31
Speaker 5: so like that was obvious.
57:33
Speaker 4: But people like you.
57:35
Speaker 5: Said, it's also just such a rule and desolate place
57:39
Speaker 5: that when somebody is following you, it's very obvious, like
57:42
Speaker 5: and there's not a lot, there's nobody else's on this road,
57:45
Speaker 5: and some guy comes on of nowhere, polls of you,
57:50
Speaker 5: Like that's an obvious, uh, you're being followed situation, and
57:55
Speaker 5: and yeah, and it's hard to also understand that it's
57:58
Speaker 5: possible that we were talking in Hardy's a few minutes
58:01
Speaker 5: before we remember seeing a cop in there, the policing
58:06
Speaker 5: lunch or something, and like that's how we're that's literally
58:11
Speaker 5: how we're traveled in small towns like party from parties.
58:16
Speaker 5: It just goes, it goes really quick, and it's just
58:19
Speaker 5: very different how things operate there versus the rest of
58:22
Speaker 5: the world.
58:23
Speaker 1: Right, I can't believe I fard to say that it
58:25
Speaker 1: was a state trooper who followed us.
58:31
Speaker 4: I was afraid of going to jae.
58:33
Speaker 2: You.
58:34
Speaker 5: I just remember being like, if we go to jail,
58:36
Speaker 5: what's gonna happen?
58:37
Speaker 4: Like the laws don't apply here.
58:39
Speaker 3: We know that exactly the laws don't apply.
58:43
Speaker 4: And so what are we going to do?
58:46
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I I can't believe that we have to
58:50
Speaker 2: wrap up, but we do. And if you could see
58:54
Speaker 2: the sides of my computer, which I could turn this around,
58:56
Speaker 2: I can't. But I have so many notes and so
58:59
Speaker 2: many things I haven't covered even half of them.
59:03
Speaker 3: But we'll do it again. Yeah, we'll do it. We'll
59:07
Speaker 3: do it, yeah, every week, every other day.
59:12
Speaker 2: I think you guys just like dial into my headset,
59:15
Speaker 2: but I do.
59:16
Speaker 3: I want to make sure that.
59:17
Speaker 2: I, first of all, I absolutely love that you have
59:20
Speaker 2: changed the name to True Sunlight again, not to like
59:25
Speaker 2: just really reiterate how much I really love and respect
59:30
Speaker 2: what the two of you are doing. It's taking something
59:33
Speaker 2: so dark and so difficult and then just even changing
59:37
Speaker 2: the name to truth Sunlight to show that is what
59:41
Speaker 2: that's what you're that's what the essence of what you're
59:43
Speaker 2: doing is. Is trying to bring everyone to that place now.
59:47
Speaker 2: And I just think it's beautiful and important. So I
59:51
Speaker 2: want to make sure that you have a moment to
59:54
Speaker 2: tell everybody what any last thoughts you have, where people
59:58
Speaker 2: can go to listen, and what you want people to
1:00:02
Speaker 2: know going forward.
1:00:04
Speaker 5: Well, We had a really hard time rebranding after Murdoch
1:00:10
Speaker 5: Murders podcast was over, as in, we could not come
1:00:13
Speaker 5: up with a name, and it took a very long
1:00:16
Speaker 5: time to figure out what we wanted the concept of
1:00:21
Speaker 5: going forward our podcast to be, and we just did
1:00:25
Speaker 5: not We were so sick of saying Murdoch murders and
1:00:30
Speaker 5: so sick of people's saying and it was after the trial,
1:00:34
Speaker 5: so it was a kind of over, but not really.
1:00:38
Speaker 5: We were so sick of people saying all you ever
1:00:41
Speaker 5: do is Murdoch and you'll never be anything past Murdoch,
1:00:44
Speaker 5: and we were like.
1:00:44
Speaker 4: Yes, we can watch us.
1:00:48
Speaker 5: But Liz came up with the concept of true Sunlight,
1:00:51
Speaker 5: and I really want her to explain her reasoning for it,
1:00:55
Speaker 5: because it was really genius and I love it.
1:01:00
Speaker 1: Was in the line at Starbucks I was getting and
1:01:05
Speaker 1: a look for David, and it was during the dark
1:01:09
Speaker 1: days in the immediate aftermath at the court of the trial,
1:01:13
Speaker 1: and we were just you know, throwing it around and
1:01:15
Speaker 1: we were you know, David in particular is just really
1:01:17
Speaker 1: eager for us to do, like I think even during
1:01:21
Speaker 1: the trial He's like, let's change it.
1:01:23
Speaker 5: Yeah.
1:01:25
Speaker 1: Yeah. So it was basically like, you know, we knew
1:01:28
Speaker 1: that true crime. Plenty of things that are out there
1:01:32
Speaker 1: that people can listen to, and it oftentimes they're beginning, middle,
1:01:35
Speaker 1: and end, Like it's reporters or people who have interested
1:01:39
Speaker 1: in the industry or the industry, the justice system or
1:01:43
Speaker 1: the legal system. They have a beginning, a middle, and
1:01:45
Speaker 1: an end to the arcs that they tell. But we're
1:01:48
Speaker 1: reporting in real time, so our audience is there with us,
1:01:53
Speaker 1: with the battles to get information from public officials, with
1:01:58
Speaker 1: the watching the men act like maniacs, so we get
1:02:03
Speaker 1: to really have a team on our side behind it
1:02:07
Speaker 1: or behind us, but who have our backs. And so
1:02:11
Speaker 1: it really felt like something that we wanted to like share.
1:02:14
Speaker 1: And like sunlight is a word that we use in
1:02:16
Speaker 1: journalism for transparency, So oh is that right? Yeah, So
1:02:21
Speaker 1: it's it has like double meaning here. So it's not
1:02:25
Speaker 1: just you know, it's not true crime, but true sunlight
1:02:27
Speaker 1: in the sense that we're taking the crime and we're
1:02:30
Speaker 1: exposing you know what, why isn't this crime being solved?
1:02:33
Speaker 1: Why why are police doing that in this one? So
1:02:37
Speaker 1: it's really it's exposing crime and corruption. And it was
1:02:40
Speaker 1: in the kitchen, Mandy your house when we were just
1:02:42
Speaker 1: like it was so simple, like we just said I
1:02:44
Speaker 1: just said it, and then it was like yeah, and.
1:02:48
Speaker 5: We were like antithesis of true crime, like make it
1:02:51
Speaker 5: opposite and make it be ultimately about good, which is sunlight,
1:02:55
Speaker 5: you know, like make it ultimate, like that is the
1:02:57
Speaker 5: goal of what we do, to make it to make
1:03:00
Speaker 5: life better for victims, to make them feel like and
1:03:03
Speaker 5: then we've also found that justice comes in many forms,
1:03:07
Speaker 5: and one of the forms that we are able to
1:03:09
Speaker 5: give to people is to just expose the bad people
1:03:14
Speaker 5: that have done horrible things and just the process of
1:03:18
Speaker 5: exposing bad people and helping victims feel validated in the
1:03:24
Speaker 5: way that they have felt about how they've been treated
1:03:27
Speaker 5: by the justice system. And we have an amazing army
1:03:30
Speaker 5: of hundreds of thousands of followers that we are so
1:03:33
Speaker 5: incredibly grateful for.
1:03:35
Speaker 4: Every day that they amazing they go to battle.
1:03:39
Speaker 5: For these people, you know, like they'll say on social
1:03:42
Speaker 5: media like leave them alone or or like or they
1:03:45
Speaker 5: make fun of the perpetrators. We do a lot of
1:03:48
Speaker 5: that because that's also kind of a little form of justice,
1:03:52
Speaker 5: Like we can't arrest people, but we can let these
1:03:56
Speaker 5: bad guys know that we are after them.
1:03:58
Speaker 4: And that we are watching and your eyes yeah yeah, and.
1:04:01
Speaker 5: There is no shortage of that so of the bad
1:04:05
Speaker 5: guys that need to be exposed, So we are very busy.
1:04:08
Speaker 5: But ye, Truth Light Yeah, I don't know, but True
1:04:12
Speaker 5: Sunlight podcast is where you guys can listen to us
1:04:15
Speaker 5: and Cuple of Justice podcasts. Cup of Justice is every
1:04:19
Speaker 5: Tuesday and True Sunlight is every Thursday. And again, we
1:04:24
Speaker 5: appreciate you so much.
1:04:25
Speaker 4: This has been awesome.
1:04:26
Speaker 2: You can't thank the two of you enough. This has
1:04:29
Speaker 2: been an absolute pleasure. And again I'm just mad respects
1:04:35
Speaker 2: for both of you. I wish you the best with
1:04:39
Speaker 2: all of it, and I feel like, well we'll chat
1:04:42
Speaker 2: again sometimes.
1:04:42
Speaker 5: Seriously, let us know this is fun, amazing, Thank you
1:04:46
Speaker 5: so much.
1:04:47
Speaker 3: Listen many