Latest / The Book Deal / Natasha, Tina and Madeleine on strategies to identify and manage author burnout, anchoring your writing in time and intention setting

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Natasha, Tina and Madeleine on strategies to identify and manage author burnout, anchoring your writing in time and intention setting · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  Madeleine Cleary: This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
• 0:15
  Natasha Rai: We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive
• 0:24
  Tina Strachan: book deal.
• 0:25
  Tina Strachan: So no matter what's.
• 0:26
  Tina Strachan: Stage of writing your at.
• 0:28
  Tina Strachan: We've got you covered.
• 0:29
  Tina Strachan: I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:30
  Tina Strachan: I'm Madeleine Cleary.
• 0:32
  Tina Strachan: And I'm Natasha Rai.
• 0:34
  Tina Strachan: And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a
• 0:38
  Madeleine Cleary: time.
• 0:43
  Madeleine Cleary: The book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners, the land and waters, which it's recorded on.
• 0:48
  Madeleine Cleary: And pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:56
  Madeleine Cleary: Hello, ladies.
• 0:58
  Madeleine Cleary: Why Hello there.
• 0:59
  Madeleine Cleary: Hi.
• 1:00
  Madeleine Cleary: It's been a long time since we've caught up.
• 1:03
  Madeleine Cleary: We were just saying it's probably been a couple of months and I reckon we've got lots of things to update each other on.
• 1:09
  Madeleine Cleary: I really, I think so.
• 1:10
  Madeleine Cleary: There's been a lot happening.
• 1:11
  Madeleine Cleary: So much happening.
• 1:12
  Madeleine Cleary: And I see you both in Melbourne as well, which has been so exciting.
• 1:16
  Madeleine Cleary: So.
• 1:16
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 1:16
  Madeleine Cleary: Tash and I, we had a, a lunch yesterday that started at 1230 and ended at 7:30 PM
• 1:24
  x: Love it.
• 1:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Which is awesome.
• 1:27
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, but Tina, tell us about your updates.
• 1:29
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause you've literally launched a book in this time.
• 1:32
  Tina Strachan: I have, I think since I spoke to you last.
• 1:34
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 1:34
  Tina Strachan: Uh, I have I, Nika and The Storm.
• 1:37
  Tina Strachan: So I booked two of the Wilder Zoo series and.
• 1:41
  Tina Strachan: Uh, yeah, so that came out in July, but it was a bit of a, I had a, a longer sort of launch period, um, which culminated in a couple of weeks ago in Melbourne at Melbourne Zoo, launching it there with lions at the window and yeah, snakes all my favorite and, and snakes and, and, um, yeah, someone, someone did a post and it was like, oh, coffee and biscotti and snakes.
• 2:07
  Tina Strachan: I was like, I haven't had that at a launch before.
• 2:09
  Tina Strachan: Um, but it's.
• 2:09
  Tina Strachan: Super fun and, um, hanging out with all my favorite author, friends, and favorite.
• 2:14
  Tina Strachan: Family and um, and, uh, Catherine Collette also very, um, lovingly came and, and helped me be my book launch buddy and, uh, my beautiful publisher, Lisa Berryman.
• 2:27
  Tina Strachan: So it was so nice'cause just to hang with that crew down there.
• 2:31
  Tina Strachan: 'cause I always see everybody in Melbourne and in Sydney have these awesome get togethers.
• 2:35
  Tina Strachan: So it's so nice to come down and, and, and meet them for a little bit too.
• 2:39
  Tina Strachan: So that was really good.
• 2:40
  Madeleine Cleary: It was a packed event too.
• 2:41
  Madeleine Cleary: It was, it had such a good vibe on the day.
• 2:45
  Madeleine Cleary: Like you really pulled a crowd, Tina, and there was so much love and support for you in the room.
• 2:50
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and we were just reflecting earlier, like it was wonderful that your publisher, Lisa Berryman.
• 2:56
  Madeleine Cleary: Also came to that.
• 2:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 2:57
  Madeleine Cleary: And I think just seeing her support of you was really fantastic as well.
• 3:02
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:03
  Tina Strachan: No, it was lovely to see her because yeah, she does live so far away.
• 3:06
  Tina Strachan: Um, and everyone, you know, the weather was terrible that weekend.
• 3:10
  Tina Strachan: It was so bad.
• 3:11
  Tina Strachan: It's Melbourne.
• 3:13
  Tina Strachan: It was so, I think I know, but it was worse than normal.
• 3:16
  Tina Strachan: There was like.
• 3:17
  Tina Strachan: Sheep grazes warnings.
• 3:19
  Tina Strachan: Like people were legit getting warnings that their sheep could die.
• 3:22
  Tina Strachan: And I was like leaving the Gold Coast with the blue sky and the 24 degrees.
• 3:26
  Tina Strachan: And
• 3:27
  Madeleine Cleary: you kept sending me, uh, like both of us saying photos of, um, the Melbourne weather, like just a snip of the Melbourne weather.
• 3:33
  Madeleine Cleary: And I think I was in, I was in Noosa.
• 3:34
  Madeleine Cleary: I was like, you are like, I don't care.
• 3:36
  Tina Strachan: I was like, sort this Madeleine, I'm coming to Melbourne.
• 3:39
  Tina Strachan: Sort this please.
• 3:41
  Natasha Rai: I still had intense FOMO that I couldn't make it for that.
• 3:43
  Natasha Rai: It looks so good.
• 3:44
  Natasha Rai: Can you do one in Sydney please at Targa Zoo?
• 3:46
  Natasha Rai: I'd love to.
• 3:47
  Natasha Rai: Oh, I have
• 3:47
  Tina Strachan: plans.
• 3:48
  Tina Strachan: Natasha
• 3:49
  Natasha Rai: plans.
• 3:49
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, you could do it like with the giraffes in the back.
• 3:51
  Natasha Rai: Oh,
• 3:53
  Tina Strachan: I know, I know.
• 3:54
  Tina Strachan: We'll have giraffes on the cover of all the WA Zoo books, so it'll be only be fitting.
• 3:57
  Tina Strachan: So Yes.
• 3:58
  Tina Strachan: Um, it was busy and it culminated in that, which was just a lovely, beautiful weekend.
• 4:03
  Tina Strachan: And um, yeah, so it was, it was long launch period, but it was lots of fun.
• 4:10
  Madeleine Cleary: There was a baby giraffe too.
• 4:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Speaking of giraffes, this, did you see baby giraffe
• 4:14
  Tina Strachan: noodle?
• 4:14
  Madeleine Cleary: Is that noodle?
• 4:15
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 4:16
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 4:17
  Tina Strachan: The cutest thing ever.
• 4:18
  Tina Strachan: I know.
• 4:19
  Tina Strachan: So sweet.
• 4:20
  Tina Strachan: Cute.
• 4:21
  Tina Strachan: Oh, but Madeleine tell me, you, you had to have gone to the butterfly house, right?
• 4:26
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh my gosh.
• 4:26
  Madeleine Cleary: So yes.
• 4:27
  Madeleine Cleary: Did you?
• 4:27
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes, of course.
• 4:29
  Madeleine Cleary: And I was there with my nieces and they, that was their favorite part.
• 4:33
  Madeleine Cleary: The butterfly house.
• 4:34
  Madeleine Cleary: It's one of my favorites too.
• 4:35
  Madeleine Cleary: So gorgeous.
• 4:36
  Madeleine Cleary: We had so many beautiful butterflies landing on us.
• 4:39
  Madeleine Cleary: It was very special.
• 4:40
  Madeleine Cleary: And I don't suppose you had a copy of the butterfly women there.
• 4:43
  Madeleine Cleary: I did not.
• 4:43
  Madeleine Cleary: I should.
• 4:44
  Madeleine Cleary: I should.
• 4:44
  Madeleine Cleary: I've just like, I should have done some book promo.
• 4:46
  Madeleine Cleary: Like I should have thought about, you know, Jessica Box's advice in the last episode, which is the piece to camera piece, you know?
• 4:53
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 4:53
  Madeleine Cleary: Done some promos, scheduled some content, time boxed.
• 4:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 4:57
  Madeleine Cleary: All that kind of stuff.
• 4:58
  Madeleine Cleary: But I did it, so I love the time box.
• 5:00
  Madeleine Cleary: I know, I know.
• 5:01
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and Natasha, I went to your event yesterday at the Merging Writers Festival in Melbourne.
• 5:04
  Madeleine Cleary: I just love that both of you're just coming to me like I don't have to go.
• 5:09
  Madeleine Cleary: It's handy.
• 5:10
  Madeleine Cleary: And that was a fabulous event.
• 5:12
  Madeleine Cleary: So many people, that would've been like over a hundred people in the room.
• 5:15
  Madeleine Cleary: I know, I was,
• 5:15
  Natasha Rai: I'm glad I didn't know that going in.
• 5:18
  Natasha Rai: Um, because I was,'cause we were just in this little green room, Tina, and they took us through, like the building.
• 5:24
  Natasha Rai: So I didn't actually get to see the space at all.
• 5:26
  Natasha Rai: I had no concept of what it Oh, wow.
• 5:28
  Natasha Rai: And I was asking one of them, I'm like, so what?
• 5:30
  Natasha Rai: Like what is it?
• 5:31
  Natasha Rai: Is it like just a room?
• 5:32
  Natasha Rai: Is it like a theater style?
• 5:34
  Natasha Rai: And they were like, oh, it's kind of long and skinny.
• 5:36
  Natasha Rai: And I'm like, oh, okay.
• 5:38
  Natasha Rai: Um, so when we actually came on stage, I was a bit taken aback.
• 5:41
  Natasha Rai: I was like, oh, oh my God.
• 5:43
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 5:43
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 5:44
  Natasha Rai: But it was good because they had proper spotlight.
• 5:46
  Natasha Rai: So, which means I couldn't really see lots and lots of people.
• 5:50
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 5:50
  Natasha Rai: I could just kind of see the first few rows handy.
• 5:53
  Natasha Rai: And then I did get side of, of, of Mads in the crowd and I was like, yes, there she is.
• 5:56
  Natasha Rai: Okay, good.
• 5:57
  Natasha Rai: I'll feel better.
• 5:58
  Madeleine Cleary: And it was so funny because, um, I think you mentioned the book Deal podcast on stage and then Christine Newell, who was sitting with us, she did a woo woo.
• 6:07
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, did she, Christine on you.
• 6:10
  Madeleine Cleary: And you heard that, didn't you?
• 6:11
  Natasha Rai: I did.
• 6:11
  Natasha Rai: I heard that faintly.
• 6:12
  Natasha Rai: And I remember at the time going, I hope that was a whoop whoop, but not a boo.
• 6:17
  x: Never, never.
• 6:18
  x: But,
• 6:19
  Madeleine Cleary: but Natasha was facilitator.
• 6:20
  Madeleine Cleary: She was the moderator and she was amazing.
• 6:23
  Madeleine Cleary: So skills on show.
• 6:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 6:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and obviously you are a very skilled interviewer.
• 6:28
  Madeleine Cleary: You, you interviewed the book deal, but you also do so many.
• 6:31
  Madeleine Cleary: So anyone who's wanting to book Natasha Rye in for future moderating gigs, you can contact her via website by the book Deal Podcast, Instagram.
• 6:39
  Madeleine Cleary: Thank you.
• 6:40
  Madeleine Cleary: I love how you promote us, Madeleine.
• 6:42
  Madeleine Cleary: That I know.
• 6:42
  Madeleine Cleary: I know.
• 6:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Always, always.
• 6:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Actually we were both pitching each other at bookshops all over Melbourne as well.
• 6:49
  Tina Strachan: Work you gotta do, go pretending to be each other's publicist and just be like, oh, Madeleine's publicist.
• 6:55
  Tina Strachan: Here she is.
• 6:57
  Natasha Rai: I'd love to be work publicist.
• 6:58
  Natasha Rai: I, I think I, you'd so good at it.
• 7:01
  Natasha Rai: Oh my gosh.
• 7:02
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 7:02
  Natasha Rai: You've just got so much drive and so much like oomph.
• 7:05
  Natasha Rai: Half the time I'm like, cowering behind the bookshelves and you are like going up big.
• 7:09
  Natasha Rai: Hello.
• 7:10
  Natasha Rai: Um, have you got, and it's just so awesome to see you in action.
• 7:13
  Tina Strachan: What about you Madeleine?
• 7:14
  Tina Strachan: You, what's your update?
• 7:16
  Tina Strachan: You have been
• 7:16
  Madeleine Cleary: super busy as well.
• 7:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
• 7:19
  Madeleine Cleary: I think actually this probably leads into what we wanna talk about, which is burnout for riders.
• 7:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and, you know, we never, ever stick to theme when we have our catch ups, but I think this is an important one to talk about and to stick to theme this this week.
• 7:35
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, I, I don't know.
• 7:36
  Madeleine Cleary: I just think that, um, the last two months have been incredibly busy and tough.
• 7:41
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, you know, lots of things going on in my personal life and health wise and compounding with, you know.
• 7:48
  Madeleine Cleary: An enormous amount of still publicity and events, which I'm so grateful for and I absolutely love doing.
• 7:54
  Madeleine Cleary: And you don't wanna ever say no to things as well.
• 7:55
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm sure you both find that too.
• 7:58
  Madeleine Cleary: And you know, I think a lot of people outside the book world sort of said to me or just, you know, just take it a bit more easier and say no, and, and put boundaries, but you just, you don't want to because you never know.
• 8:10
  Madeleine Cleary: It dries up quickly, doesn't it?
• 8:11
  Madeleine Cleary: I don't know.
• 8:13
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 8:13
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 8:13
  Madeleine Cleary: You want those opportunities.
• 8:14
  Madeleine Cleary: So like, for example, last week, um.
• 8:18
  Madeleine Cleary: I had a, a throat infection in conjunctivitis, hence why I'm wearing my glasses.
• 8:23
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and lots of things going on.
• 8:25
  Madeleine Cleary: But, um, you know, Sydney, um, bad Crime Writers Festival was on and I was traveling and, um, I was very close to pulling out because I was so sick.
• 8:36
  Madeleine Cleary: But in the end decided to go and I have no regrets, but it does take a toll on your body and your mm-hmm.
• 8:43
  Madeleine Cleary: You know, health and, and all sorts of things.
• 8:46
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, particularly'cause you know, a lot of these festivals, you, you do one panel, but it's also all the energy you give.
• 8:52
  Madeleine Cleary: It's a lot of energy.
• 8:53
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 8:54
  Madeleine Cleary: So I guess, yeah, I'm curious to know what your perspectives are on this.
• 8:59
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause I think all of us have been incredibly stretched and busy.
• 9:04
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 9:04
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, we all have our day jobs, our personal lives, and our writing lives since publication.
• 9:11
  Madeleine Cleary: So how do we like, yeah, how do we find a new normal?
• 9:15
  Madeleine Cleary: And I don't know, Natasha, you seem like a, a good person.
• 9:19
  Madeleine Cleary: You've a calm, authoritative voice on this.
• 9:23
  Natasha Rai: I dunno about that, but I can, I can talk about what I'm figuring out because I haven't figured it out yet.
• 9:28
  Natasha Rai: Um, so like you, Madeleine, like there's, there's been some festival stuff.
• 9:33
  Natasha Rai: There's been some intensive training I've been doing for my counseling work and then.
• 9:37
  Natasha Rai: I'm also judging, um, a prize.
• 9:39
  Natasha Rai: So I've got entries to read and what I started to realize was, like, you, I don't wanna say no, um, but one thing that helped me when I was saying yes, was to see how it looked in terms of my time commitment for each thing and really, um, getting a sense of where the overlaps were.
• 9:59
  Natasha Rai: And going right in those times of overlap, like for example, I'm gonna have to read these three books plus start reading the entries for this prize at the same time.
• 10:08
  Natasha Rai: So there was one weekend where I'm gonna be doing both.
• 10:11
  Natasha Rai: So what I did was write, okay, I can't do any social stuff that weekend and it's not a sacrifice it, I chose to do this.
• 10:19
  Natasha Rai: Um.
• 10:21
  Natasha Rai: So that helps me when I can look and see what's coming up and then plan accordingly.
• 10:28
  Natasha Rai: Um, the other thing I know is what my signs are for coming up to burnout.
• 10:33
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 10:33
  Natasha Rai: So as soon as that those signs come up, I do things that I know are going to be good for me.
• 10:40
  Natasha Rai: And I don't want to turn this into a full counseling session, but there's a real distinction between doing things that are self care and doing things that.
• 10:47
  Natasha Rai: Enable you to keep going at the pace that you're going'cause they're not the same.
• 10:52
  Natasha Rai: Um, self-care is about genuinely looking after yourself or finding a way to give your body and your mind a break.
• 11:00
  Natasha Rai: Um, the other, which I call management strategy is to enable you to do things at the fre frenetic pace or whatever it is that you're doing, which doesn't actually give you a break.
• 11:11
  Natasha Rai: So,
• 11:12
  Tina Strachan: so what would be some good
• 11:13
  Natasha Rai: examples of that?
• 11:15
  Natasha Rai: So I know, so obviously, you know, people always think about burnout or maybe they don't, I don't know.
• 11:20
  Natasha Rai: There's a common conception maybe that with burnout you can, if you only could take some time off, right?
• 11:25
  Natasha Rai: You could just take some time off to rest and then you'll feel better.
• 11:27
  Natasha Rai: And yes, that is true.
• 11:29
  Natasha Rai: And if you have the luxury or the ability because you have, um, sick leave, stress leave, whatever, you can do that.
• 11:35
  Natasha Rai: But if you don't, um, it's about finding glimmers.
• 11:38
  Natasha Rai: So it's like going.
• 11:40
  Natasha Rai: I exercise every single day.
• 11:41
  Natasha Rai: For example, I'm not talking about me.
• 11:43
  Natasha Rai: This could be a person.
• 11:44
  Natasha Rai: And so you go two days a week, I'm actually going to choose to sleep in or I don't exercise.
• 11:50
  Natasha Rai: And when I do, I feel better.
• 11:52
  Natasha Rai: So three days a week I'm gonna do a 10 minute walk.
• 11:55
  Natasha Rai: It's just little glimmers.
• 11:56
  Natasha Rai: And if you find that the thing you're trying to do for yourself is actually putting more demand on you in any way, like it's taking up your energy, it's feeling like a different chore, it's probably not going to be self-care.
• 12:10
  Natasha Rai: And it doesn't have to be a full on thing.
• 12:12
  Natasha Rai: It can literally be, as I said, glimmers.
• 12:14
  Natasha Rai: So going to bed a bit earlier if you can, or getting up a bit later if you can.
• 12:20
  Natasha Rai: All those little things that give your body just a bit of some space essentially.
• 12:27
  Madeleine Cleary: I love this.
• 12:27
  Madeleine Cleary: I think this is great.
• 12:29
  Madeleine Cleary: Do you know I was in the car today?
• 12:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Um.
• 12:33
  Madeleine Cleary: On, on my way to a picnic, a family picnic for my dad's birthday, and I was writing my dad's card in the car, like literally on the way while my husband was driving, and I just had this feeling.
• 12:49
  Madeleine Cleary: Inside.
• 12:50
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause we just, we had, we were running late, we were racing to get all the food for the picnic and pack everything and have it all right.
• 12:56
  Madeleine Cleary: And I'd been doing writing in the morning and planning podcasting stuff and you know, you get pulled in so many different directions.
• 13:04
  Madeleine Cleary: And then I'm hurling writing this birthday card for my dad.
• 13:07
  Madeleine Cleary: And I had this feeling in the pit of my stomach.
• 13:10
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm like, what am what?
• 13:11
  Madeleine Cleary: How have I got to this point where, you know, your time is.
• 13:14
  Madeleine Cleary: So constrained and you're feeling so I, I felt really flat and, and part of me was like, oh, I just wanna, I just wanna go home and just spend the whole day.
• 13:26
  Madeleine Cleary: Just have our day of just writing and just so I can focus on the, on the work and get the work done.
• 13:32
  Madeleine Cleary: But, and so this is what I was saying to my husband.
• 13:35
  Madeleine Cleary: Went to the picnic, sat in the sun, played with my nieces.
• 13:38
  Madeleine Cleary: We went for a nice bush walk down by the river.
• 13:41
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, we laughed.
• 13:42
  Madeleine Cleary: We had a nice lunch.
• 13:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Beautiful.
• 13:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, three hours of that and I felt a thousand times better for it.
• 13:50
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 13:50
  Madeleine Cleary: And so it is almost like the things that you think you need to help with the burnout might actually not be.
• 13:57
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 13:58
  Natasha Rai: Because even that idea, um, Madeleine, about, I wish I could have some time to write that's.
• 14:03
  Natasha Rai: It's a double edged sword because the, that is the thing that's leading to maybe feeling of fatigue or burnout.
• 14:08
  Natasha Rai: And that is also the thing that nourishes.
• 14:10
  Natasha Rai: But sometimes you just have to take a pivot and it's not forever.
• 14:15
  Natasha Rai: Like, you know, these things don't, if you look after yourself or if you know how to look after yourself, they don't, they kind of pass.
• 14:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 14:22
  Madeleine Cleary: What
• 14:23
  Tina Strachan: about you, Tina?
• 14:24
  Tina Strachan: I was just thinking when you were talking about, um, Madeleine like being outside and bush walking and um, being in the sun and there's.
• 14:32
  Tina Strachan: I think there are a couple of things.
• 14:33
  Tina Strachan: Like one is just keeping it simple.
• 14:34
  Tina Strachan: Hey, sometimes, like, sometimes go, maybe I'll go and get a massage or maybe I'll go for a soak or I need to meditate.
• 14:41
  Tina Strachan: Never done it before, but surely that's what will get fix me.
• 14:44
  Tina Strachan: Um, and it's, there's that concept of nature bathing, which you've both probably heard of before.
• 14:51
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 14:51
  Tina Strachan: And honestly, just a, a walk in outside, even if it's just outside, even if you don't live in.
• 14:57
  Tina Strachan: Near somewhere where there's bush, but surely just fresh air and sunshine.
• 15:01
  Tina Strachan: Or if you're in Melbourne rain, um, and lots of wind.
• 15:04
  Tina Strachan: No, no, I, I know that it's lovely there.
• 15:07
  Tina Strachan: Um, but yeah, being out in the sun and just breathing in some fresh air.
• 15:11
  Tina Strachan: And making it simple.
• 15:13
  Tina Strachan: Right, and really achievable.
• 15:14
  Tina Strachan: And just what you have there right now.
• 15:16
  Tina Strachan: And maybe it is just taking a bath or, exactly.
• 15:18
  Tina Strachan: I actually have like multiple showers in a day and it's all just part of how I work.
• 15:23
  Tina Strachan: I try not to, if the day's going well, that's fine, but I just get in spaces where I need like a circuit breaker from me.
• 15:28
  Tina Strachan: For me to get to one place to the other.
• 15:30
  Tina Strachan: As in like, um, a thought process in my brain, it clears my brain because as we all know, you go in the shower, there's nothing much else you can do in there except for shower things.
• 15:39
  Tina Strachan: Um, which, which are, yeah, normally things that will, um, and I find it calming.
• 15:46
  Tina Strachan: Some people might not, but, um, yeah, so even a nice shower, some nice smelly soap.
• 15:51
  Tina Strachan: Um, keeping it simple, maybe.
• 15:54
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, it doesn't have to be complicated at all.
• 15:56
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 15:56
  Madeleine Cleary: And you know what?
• 15:57
  Madeleine Cleary: You've actually, I think, connected something here, Tina, which is like the shower and the bath is a way of doing nothing and almost like hanging out with my family.
• 16:07
  Madeleine Cleary: It's not like it's doing nothing, but it actually, it's easy.
• 16:09
  Madeleine Cleary: Makes you focus on something which is not all those other thoughts that are going around in your head.
• 16:15
  Madeleine Cleary: And all those other hats that we wear, like when you are talking with a 3-year-old, um, your focus is very much on the ducks and the water and the lake and all those types of things.
• 16:27
  Madeleine Cleary: She actually said to me on the swings today, she turned to me on,'cause we're both on the swings.
• 16:31
  Madeleine Cleary: She's only at two and a half.
• 16:32
  Madeleine Cleary: And she says to me, I saw your book in the bookshop like this.
• 16:37
  Madeleine Cleary: That's so cool.
• 16:39
  Madeleine Cleary: And so just, you know, I think part of me wants to withdraw, but I think actually part of my self-care is not to withdraw, it's to, to hang around with people that nourish and I think that's really important.
• 16:50
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm,
• 16:51
  Tina Strachan: connection.
• 16:51
  Tina Strachan: Totally.
• 16:52
  x: Mm-hmm.
• 16:53
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 16:53
  Tina Strachan: I love that idea.
• 16:55
  Madeleine Cleary: So you are all feeling well and, okay.
• 16:58
  Madeleine Cleary: Are you at all close to burnout or you're feeling good?
• 17:01
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm gonna check, check in with you both.
• 17:03
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh.
• 17:05
  Tina Strachan: I think I'm doing, um, okay now, I think that as soon after I got back from Melbourne after the book launch and like we're kind of settled from that, I really felt just all of a sudden one day I just kind of stood there and I just looked at my husband and I was like.
• 17:20
  Tina Strachan: I don't feel like I have to have to do something right now.
• 17:22
  Tina Strachan: Like I've, I mean, I do always have stuff to do, but I don't feel like this massive weight on me.
• 17:28
  Tina Strachan: I almost just feel like I've got a bit of time.
• 17:30
  Tina Strachan: It's so not time, but mental space.
• 17:33
  x: Mm.
• 17:33
  Tina Strachan: Um, I think just everything just lifted and I.
• 17:36
  Tina Strachan: Feel like there's a little bit of downtime now, which is, which is nice.
• 17:41
  Tina Strachan: Um, really nice.
• 17:42
  Tina Strachan: But I think sometimes you don't realize how close you're getting to burnout or how overwhelmed you are until it, until afterwards and you go, wow, that was what a.
• 17:52
  Tina Strachan: What a change in brain space, so.
• 17:54
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 17:54
  Tina Strachan: I think that's the other thing, right?
• 17:55
  Tina Strachan: Is that some people don't realize when you're getting close to that because it just creeps up on you.
• 17:59
  Tina Strachan: And, um, yeah.
• 18:01
  Tina Strachan: What are some of the signs, Tash, that they just, you're taking on too much?
• 18:05
  Natasha Rai: Um, so some of the signs are things, well, the obvious ones being really tired, um, not being able to focus on things that you all always found easy to do, or finding things really onerous, like the thought of.
• 18:20
  Natasha Rai: Dinner or the thought of doing a shop or the thought of going to work, whatever it feels like they're huge, huge tasks that suggests that you are just, your body is just using up too much energy to keep you alive, to do all of that other work.
• 18:32
  Natasha Rai: Um, a sense of depression.
• 18:34
  Natasha Rai: So not like depression is different, but that idea of that feeling depressive, like, this is really hard.
• 18:40
  Natasha Rai: I can't really do anything.
• 18:41
  Natasha Rai: A lot of self-loathing or criticism that's really common.
• 18:45
  Natasha Rai: Like, you know, I can't do this.
• 18:46
  Natasha Rai: Why am I so hopeless?
• 18:47
  Natasha Rai: Why?
• 18:48
  Natasha Rai: And especially if that's not a familiar thing or that's creeping in a lot.
• 18:52
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 18:53
  Natasha Rai: And the, this is a catch 22 as well.
• 18:55
  Natasha Rai: The more you doubt yourself, the more mistakes you make.
• 18:57
  Natasha Rai: That's another sign that burnout's on the way or that you are in burnout because you do make more mistakes.
• 19:02
  Natasha Rai: And the more mistakes you make is again, the self-fulfilling, um, kind of prophecy and, um.
• 19:10
  Natasha Rai: Lack of like different changes in appetite and sleep.
• 19:13
  Natasha Rai: The big ones too, if you're eating too much, you're not eating at, you know, at all.
• 19:17
  Natasha Rai: Or, and of course the body will show you like infections getting sick.
• 19:22
  Natasha Rai: Like if you get sick frequently in a short space of time.
• 19:25
  Natasha Rai: Especially looking at you, especially things like colds and sore throats, they're, they're quite common in burnout.
• 19:35
  Natasha Rai: Um.
• 19:36
  Natasha Rai: Random aches and pains.
• 19:37
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 19:37
  Natasha Rai: It's just because when we're starting to stress, we hold our bodies differently, and then we start carrying stress in different parts of the body.
• 19:43
  Natasha Rai: So it it, if you don't know your signs, that's okay.
• 19:46
  Natasha Rai: Um, what you can do is if you do get into burnout, you can start to do a reverse map of when did I start feeling something?
• 19:54
  Natasha Rai: If you, if you don't even know what the something is, just figure out when did things change.
• 19:58
  x: Yeah.
• 20:03
  DJ Taylor: Hi, I'm Di Taylor, author of the YA historical fiction novel, Anna's War.
• 20:08
  DJ Taylor: My pen name is DJ Taylor.
• 20:10
  DJ Taylor: The story of Anna's war began a long time before I wrote a single word.
• 20:15
  DJ Taylor: It began in southern Holland in the final brutal years of World War ii.
• 20:20
  DJ Taylor: I was inspired by the real life memories of my parents-in-law and a friend of theirs.
• 20:25
  DJ Taylor: They're childhood recollections of Nazi occupation resistance, and the courage just to survive.
• 20:33
  DJ Taylor: My mother-in-law's father hid in a secret cellar beneath the family home while soldiers patrol the streets above arresting able-bodied men and transporting them to work in German factories.
• 20:45
  DJ Taylor: These German factories were frequently bombed by the allies.
• 20:49
  DJ Taylor: The emotional heart of Anna's war rests in the true stories of silence, fear, and defiance.
• 20:56
  DJ Taylor: As the Nazis tighten their grip, Anna's world becomes smaller, darker, and infinitely more dangerous.
• 21:03
  DJ Taylor: Though Anna's journey is fictional, the world she lives in and the choices she makes are rooted in real life acts of bravery and sacrifice.
• 21:13
  DJ Taylor: Anna's War was released on 2nd of July and is published by Riveted Press.
• 21:18
  DJ Taylor: Riveted Press has the tagline where unforgettable stories are forged, and I hope if you read Anna's War, it'll be a story that will stay with you long after you have read it.
• 21:35
  Madeleine Cleary: The focus thing I think really resonated with me, um, because I'm pretty good at focusing on tasks generally, but I definitely found, because I went to Noosa recently for a week and I don't think I quite realized how close I was to burn out until I went away and stopped.
• 21:52
  Madeleine Cleary: As well.
• 21:53
  Madeleine Cleary: Sometimes when you do have that and every single morning I was exercising, I was going for a swim, I was reading books and being able to focus for hours on books.
• 22:03
  Madeleine Cleary: And that is something I don't think I can do in a normal like day to day at the moment because there is just so much going on.
• 22:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, so what I have done, I've actually deleted a lot of my like social media apps again from my phone, but I've gone more than just Instagram.
• 22:19
  Madeleine Cleary: I've got.
• 22:20
  Madeleine Cleary: You know, deleted Messenger on my emails as well from my phone.
• 22:23
  Madeleine Cleary: So now I can only check emails on my laptop.
• 22:26
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm, that's a good idea.
• 22:27
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, so I schedule like certain things.
• 22:29
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause I just found, I don't know if you both find this, I just get a lot of writer based, author based emails now.
• 22:36
  Madeleine Cleary: A lot of admin.
• 22:37
  x: Mm-hmm.
• 22:38
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and I'm not sure where it comes from or why, but you know, it's just it.
• 22:42
  Madeleine Cleary: The admin has increased since becoming a published writer.
• 22:46
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 22:47
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 22:47
  Tina Strachan: And it makes sense not to have it on your phone.
• 22:50
  Tina Strachan: 'cause unless you're sitting down ready to address an email, why are we checking it like Exactly.
• 22:55
  Tina Strachan: And same as Instagram messages and even text messages.
• 22:58
  Tina Strachan: Honestly, I, the amount of times I don't respond back and I feel horrible about it was because.
• 23:04
  Tina Strachan: I've looked at it like when I'm walking from my car to the office or something like, why?
• 23:08
  Tina Strachan: I don't know.
• 23:09
  Tina Strachan: And as a habit, and then I forget that it's even happened'cause I can't give it the brain space.
• 23:14
  Tina Strachan: And then like three weeks later I go, oh, that's right.
• 23:16
  Tina Strachan: That person messaged me.
• 23:17
  Tina Strachan: And so why did I even look?
• 23:18
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, it's, it makes complete sense.
• 23:21
  Tina Strachan: And just to take them all off and, um.
• 23:25
  Tina Strachan: Uh, time block as, um, time block, um, Jessica suggested and, um, just look at it then when you've got the brain space.
• 23:33
  Tina Strachan: 'cause
• 23:33
  Madeleine Cleary: otherwise you are thinking about how you're gonna respond to it, uh, because you see it pop up and Yeah.
• 23:38
  Madeleine Cleary: You, you start already thinking about it.
• 23:40
  Madeleine Cleary: Whereas if you just.
• 23:41
  Madeleine Cleary: Schedule and I've got, now I scheduled time, I timebox it.
• 23:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
• 23:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, after work, I have like in my calendar now, like an hour after work to just go through my author emails.
• 23:52
  x: Mm-hmm.
• 23:52
  x: Mm-hmm.
• 23:52
  x: Mm-hmm.
• 23:53
  Madeleine Cleary: And Instagram messages and that type of stuff.
• 23:55
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 23:55
  Madeleine Cleary: And I've found that has been helpful for the focus.
• 23:58
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 23:58
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 23:59
  Tina Strachan: And the mental load, Hey, because even sometimes you can open one of the many messaging services and get something that's not great news or just confusing news or just news that you just don't want to.
• 24:10
  Tina Strachan: Know about right now when you're about to walk into work or sit down and write or something like that.
• 24:14
  Tina Strachan: And that just totally distracts you.
• 24:16
  Tina Strachan: So unless you're ready to be prepared for whatever's, um, coming at you in one of those messaging services, then maybe it's best not to look.
• 24:25
  Tina Strachan: Mm, I'm trying to tell, I'm talking to myself here too, like, so I think I'm gonna get off like, um, because I've even noticed with Instagram lately, because that's pretty much the only one that I use, I.
• 24:35
  Tina Strachan: Actually pick up my phone.
• 24:36
  Tina Strachan: And I, I'm, I'm, I kind of don't wanna open it.
• 24:40
  Tina Strachan: Like, I think I just, when you go, when you're going through that sort of launch period and stuff, and I didn't do heaps of stuff on there, but I just wanted to be around for, um, whenever there's mentions or reviews and acknowledge that, because I know that it's, it's time for people to do, to write these reviews and posts things about your book or your launch and stuff.
• 24:56
  Tina Strachan: So I wanted to be around to, um, you know, acknowledge that.
• 25:00
  Tina Strachan: Uh, yeah.
• 25:01
  Tina Strachan: But so when that's all sort of dying down, I, I.
• 25:04
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, I'm really looking at it now.
• 25:06
  Tina Strachan: I just, because I don't, I actually don't want to, I just, I'm kind, sometimes I'm sick of just picking up my phone.
• 25:11
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 25:11
  Tina Strachan: So I'm going to leave this, uh, interview, interview catch up and, um, yeah, I'm, I'm gonna do the same and just, and just take them all off and.
• 25:21
  Tina Strachan: Time block them.
• 25:22
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 25:22
  Natasha Rai: Well, I mean, the thing is the, the impact of all of that is creating space.
• 25:26
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 25:26
  Natasha Rai: And then you have more time for connection, which is, you know, a lot of pe a lot of us love connection with others or nature.
• 25:34
  x: Mm-hmm.
• 25:34
  Natasha Rai: So the irony always is the more you slow down, the more time and space you do create.
• 25:39
  x: Mm-hmm.
• 25:39
  x: Because
• 25:39
  Natasha Rai: you're, you're able to just.
• 25:41
  Natasha Rai: Really distill down to what is it I need to do?
• 25:44
  Natasha Rai: Because the more you try and do, the more you reinforce, there's more to be done.
• 25:47
  Natasha Rai: So it just leads you into this other whole place that's not helpful.
• 25:52
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 25:52
  Tina Strachan: It's like when I was talking meditation with, um, uh, Jane, Tara,
• 25:57
  Jane
• 25:57
  Tina Strachan: about, uh, manifesting and, uh, she meditates and yeah, that's saying that if.
• 26:03
  Tina Strachan: If you don't have time or you think you're too busy to meditate for an hour, then meditate for two.
• 26:09
  Tina Strachan: And it's, it really, and I get it, and I know it's practical to sit down.
• 26:13
  Tina Strachan: And even if you clear your mind for just like 10, 15 minutes, it's like, I think to myself, I don't even have 10, 15 minutes.
• 26:20
  Tina Strachan: Literally my every second of my day is mapped out.
• 26:23
  Tina Strachan: Um, but if you have 15 minutes, it's like, well, maybe I will save time elsewhere during the day because my brain will be functioning better and I can focus better.
• 26:33
  Tina Strachan: So again, time block meditation into my daily calendar.
• 26:40
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, th this actually goes very, it segues really nicely into Tash, your intention setting, um, episode.
• 26:48
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and do you wanna talk a little bit, I suppose, about intention setting and what your plan is around your episodes in future?
• 26:56
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 26:56
  Madeleine Cleary: So I've
• 26:58
  Natasha Rai: always set that intention.
• 27:00
  Natasha Rai: Partly for personal selfish reasons.
• 27:02
  Natasha Rai: 'cause I was struggling with time and Sally, in that Sally, good episode.
• 27:06
  Natasha Rai: She just kept mentioning time and I'm really latched onto it.
• 27:09
  Natasha Rai: Um, and I just thought that it would be a really lovely way to add a bit of, I dunno, to like, to distill or take something outta the episode that really touched me.
• 27:22
  Natasha Rai: Um, so that's, that was what I was thinking in terms of the setting that intention and, and how.
• 27:27
  Natasha Rai: You can look at a different aspect of your manuscript or your writing craft or practice.
• 27:32
  Natasha Rai: Um, especially because at the time I was flirting on the edge of burnout.
• 27:35
  Natasha Rai: So, um, I, uh, found that very useful even for myself to be like, okay, what am I doing with my time?
• 27:43
  Natasha Rai: And I also loved, um, Sally's when she talks about her anchoring her, her story or her narrative or her plot in time, because that's just another layer of attention you can bring to your work.
• 27:55
  Natasha Rai: That was my thinking.
• 27:56
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 27:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
• 27:57
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm interested to know about anchoring manuscripts and time.
• 28:00
  Madeleine Cleary: How, how would you go about doing that?
• 28:03
  Madeleine Cleary: Good question.
• 28:04
  Madeleine Cleary: Uh,
• 28:06
  Natasha Rai: so I guess I was, I'm thinking about, um, onslaught, um, and because that's set across different time periods and each scene I wrote set in different times.
• 28:18
  Natasha Rai: I immersed myself fully into that.
• 28:21
  Natasha Rai: So what was happening then?
• 28:23
  Natasha Rai: What might have been in the environment around these people then?
• 28:27
  Natasha Rai: Um, and really tried not to compare, like tried really not to think about what Arch might be experiencing.
• 28:34
  Natasha Rai: That's one of my characters.
• 28:35
  Natasha Rai: And in say, 1997 compared to what you might be experiencing in 2024, because it's a huge amount of time and as soon as you start comparing, you start writing it with a different mindset.
• 28:45
  Natasha Rai: Because you're writing it from here back there.
• 28:48
  Natasha Rai: I'm doing things with my hands that no one can see, so that's really helpful.
• 28:51
  Natasha Rai: Um, but yeah, I think that the ability, I think to get into the time that you're writing and Madeleine, you must, this must be something.
• 29:00
  Natasha Rai: You think about, have to think about, right, because you're, yeah.
• 29:03
  Madeleine Cleary: And I think you can almost go too far because, um, I spend a lot of time t trawling through old newspapers.
• 29:12
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, generally mostly on trove because it's just so interesting to anchor yourself in that.
• 29:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 29:18
  Madeleine Cleary: The time period.
• 29:20
  Madeleine Cleary: Um.
• 29:21
  Madeleine Cleary: Uh, more recently I was looking up, for example, I did a deep dive into mediums who practice medical diagnosis in, in the time period of 1870 to 1880 in Melbourne.
• 29:35
  Madeleine Cleary: So I want a very specific time period and a very specific thing, and I just uncovered all this really interesting stuff and, you know, but I, I spent probably like two hours just on that.
• 29:50
  Madeleine Cleary: Little topic and that little nugget, um, because I just find it really intriguing.
• 29:54
  Madeleine Cleary: So you can, yeah.
• 29:55
  Madeleine Cleary: But surely
• 29:56
  Natasha Rai: it gets your mind thinking in a very.
• 29:59
  Natasha Rai: Different specific way that your characters would've thought, or that's their whole world?
• 30:03
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 30:04
  Natasha Rai: That's, and also the
• 30:04
  Madeleine Cleary: writing, I mean, even writing in the nineties is different.
• 30:08
  Madeleine Cleary: The way we spoke in the nineties, the language we used in the nineties is different to even now.
• 30:14
  Madeleine Cleary: And of course, 1870s is very different.
• 30:16
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, but I, I think as well, like I, I, um, I, I know it's not really about.
• 30:21
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, I guess it is a little bit about time and Tina writing from a child's perspective.
• 30:26
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, I was about to say that.
• 30:27
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, I think so.
• 30:29
  Tina Strachan: I feel like I am still a child, so I find that very easy to do.
• 30:35
  Tina Strachan: But I do have to say, um, I've, I'm sure there's lots of middle grade writers who don't have children, but geez, it's been helpful.
• 30:41
  Tina Strachan: I think I like, I dunno if I would've been able to connect enough, like with where they're at now.
• 30:47
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 30:47
  Tina Strachan: True.
• 30:47
  Tina Strachan: Because it's very different to where we were at.
• 30:51
  Tina Strachan: But still not like, still they're still the same, you know?
• 30:55
  Natasha Rai: But I'm curious about that.
• 30:56
  Natasha Rai: Tina know, like, do you feel like when you, I know it must be hard because you are their parent, but also seeing how they've changed over time and what interests them at different points and how, but not that you're using your children in your books, but Mm.
• 31:11
  Natasha Rai: What occupies different at different times?
• 31:14
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 31:15
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 31:16
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 31:17
  Tina Strachan: I think it's been.
• 31:18
  Tina Strachan: Well, in respect to the Wild Zoo series, it's, you know, she's got quite a unique life.
• 31:25
  Tina Strachan: And I specifically, uh, I remember there was a question early on in one of the edits and, um, someone said, well, wouldn't you just have a phone?
• 31:35
  Tina Strachan: And I was like, no, once you, and I was like, well, no.
• 31:38
  Tina Strachan: I mean, she's 11 lots of 11 year olds, probably her phones.
• 31:40
  Tina Strachan: But you know, she also like lives in a zoo and still like around, you know, I just.
• 31:47
  Tina Strachan: Once you introduce a phone and technology like that, I don't, I don't see how you can make the A plot worth anything really, because you can just use the phone to Google the answer or call for help.
• 32:00
  Do you
• 32:00
  Tina Strachan: know what I mean?
• 32:01
  Tina Strachan: Like there's no drama.
• 32:03
  Tina Strachan: Where's the conflict?
• 32:04
  Tina Strachan: You get out of it all'cause you can just ring.
• 32:06
  Madeleine Cleary: So Tash, is this something, do you think you're gonna start intention setting for your future episodes?
• 32:13
  Natasha Rai: Yes, I think so because it's been really helpful for me and I know that.
• 32:17
  Natasha Rai: Some of the feedback we've had from listeners, they like it too.
• 32:19
  Natasha Rai: So yes.
• 32:20
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 32:20
  Madeleine Cleary: Please do in tuned and then we can also chat about it in our catchups.
• 32:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, lovely.
• 32:25
  Madeleine Cleary: We can stick to theme.
• 32:26
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh my goodness.
• 32:27
  Madeleine Cleary: Look at us.
• 32:28
  Madeleine Cleary: We can try.
• 32:29
  Madeleine Cleary: We can try.
• 32:29
  Madeleine Cleary: Alright, we're gonna do little short tips.
• 32:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Uh, Tina.
• 32:34
  Madeleine Cleary: Take us away.
• 32:34
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh gosh.
• 32:35
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 32:35
  Tina Strachan: Well, uh, my top tip for authors, uh, or anybody really is, uh, when they're feeling a little bit overwhelmed, which I know is hard to identify sometimes, but I'm gonna go with my nature paving.
• 32:52
  Tina Strachan: There's lots of papers on it, if you wanna, or just articles if you want to look it up.
• 32:56
  Tina Strachan: It's an actual term.
• 32:57
  Tina Strachan: It does.
• 32:59
  Tina Strachan: Actual measurable change to your body.
• 33:02
  Tina Strachan: And I mean, you can listen to a podcast, you can listen to some music or something while order, or, or an audio book, or can literally just go outside and listen to nature, whatever that may be for you.
• 33:13
  Tina Strachan: Um, and you know what?
• 33:14
  Tina Strachan: Even if you don't have that, you can, um, there's.
• 33:18
  Tina Strachan: Lots of audio that you can get from, oh, you can get it for free, just even on like YouTube and stuff like that.
• 33:24
  Tina Strachan: But, you know, um, on, you know, if you've got any of those music apps, uh, they have some lovely nature sounds and even that is pro like, actually proven to be helpful.
• 33:33
  Tina Strachan: So five minutes, 10 minutes even if that's all that you can do, it's, it's scientifically proven.
• 33:39
  Tina Strachan: Get out there, take some deep breaths.
• 33:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Love that.
• 33:43
  Madeleine Cleary: And I'm just gonna add onto that Ocean swims as well if you can.
• 33:47
  Madeleine Cleary: I mean it's a privilege, right?
• 33:48
  Madeleine Cleary: It's bit of a luxury.
• 33:50
  Madeleine Cleary: It's a luxury.
• 33:51
  Madeleine Cleary: But if you get that opportunity, take it.
• 33:52
  Madeleine Cleary: I felt so, so good after those ocean swims.
• 33:56
  Madeleine Cleary: And I had,'cause I went quite early in the morning and a lot of the surfers there at Noosa were um, you know, in their wetsuits and a couple of them.
• 34:03
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause I was just in my bathers, um, what do you call them in Queensland?
• 34:07
  Madeleine Cleary: Dogs.
• 34:08
  Madeleine Cleary: Dogs.
• 34:08
  Madeleine Cleary: Dogs.
• 34:09
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 34:09
  Madeleine Cleary: No, what Bathers as well.
• 34:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 34:12
  Madeleine Cleary: And, um, they were like, oh gosh, you are brave.
• 34:14
  Madeleine Cleary: Like going in without a wetsuit.
• 34:16
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm like, I'm a Melbourne Ian.
• 34:17
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm from Melbourne.
• 34:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 34:21
  Madeleine Cleary: Natasha and if you don't have the ocean, you can have just a cold shower.
• 34:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Cold shower.
• 34:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 34:26
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, I've heard about this and the whole, like I used to cold shower.
• 34:29
  Madeleine Cleary: I was during summer, I probably will go back to that like one minute.
• 34:32
  Madeleine Cleary: I just stand under a cold shower.
• 34:34
  Madeleine Cleary: It's most, most supposed to bring out like brown fat or something.
• 34:37
  Madeleine Cleary: It's not Oh, oh call It didn't heard that.
• 34:40
  Madeleine Cleary: It's not a thing.
• 34:41
  Madeleine Cleary: Is that not a thing?
• 34:42
  Madeleine Cleary: I dunno.
• 34:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Never.
• 34:43
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm gonna to Google it after this.
• 34:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Apparently brown fat is very good for you.
• 34:47
  x: Oh,
• 34:48
  Madeleine Cleary: it like builds, like I, I don't think, I think it's like a term, I don't think it's an actual thing, but it's meant to like help you with like building, um, you know, your good immunity and good mental health and like all, I think that's what the term's called.
• 35:02
  Madeleine Cleary: And if not, then just ignore everything I'm saying this no
• 35:06
  Natasha Rai: actual medical
• 35:07
  Tina Strachan: advice
• 35:07
  Madeleine Cleary: given
• 35:08
  Tina Strachan: here.
• 35:08
  Tina Strachan: Exactly.
• 35:09
  Natasha Rai: Don't listen to us.
• 35:11
  Natasha Rai: Um, so my tip wasn't about the show, but I just thought I'd add it in my tip because I've been so immersed in emerging writers, um, world lately, especially reading some of the entries for this prize that I'm judging.
• 35:24
  Natasha Rai: Please, writers out there, double, triple, check your work before you submit because it is really heartbreaking as a judge when you read a piece that's really good.
• 35:33
  Natasha Rai: And then there are some.
• 35:35
  Natasha Rai: Errors that you can easily fix, like tense changes, um, spelling errors.
• 35:41
  Natasha Rai: And I know that, you know, sometimes with deadlines in life you don't have time, but I think it's better that you don't submit if you really are rushed than to submit something that's not up to your, like a, a good standard because.
• 35:55
  Natasha Rai: You know it, it's just, it's, yeah.
• 35:56
  Natasha Rai: As a judge, I'm like, no, this is so good.
• 35:59
  Natasha Rai: But please, if only you had just taken a bit of time.
• 36:01
  Natasha Rai: So time, there's that theme.
• 36:04
  Natasha Rai: Take some more time and just check your work, please before you submit.
• 36:08
  Natasha Rai: Especially to competition.
• 36:10
  Madeleine Cleary: Love it.
• 36:10
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, that's an excellent way to finish.
• 36:13
  Madeleine Cleary: All right, ladies, thank you so much.
• 36:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Thank you.
• 36:16
  Madeleine Cleary: Thank you.
• 36:17
  Tina Strachan: Alright, talk.
• 36:17
  Tina Strachan: We're gonna go have a cold shower now,
• 36:20
  or an ocean swim.
• 36:23
  You could.
• 36:23
  We couldn't actually.
• 36:25
  You probably could too.
• 36:27
  Tash?
• 36:27
  Natasha Rai: No.
• 36:28
  Natasha Rai: I'll just stick with a cold shower.
• 36:34
  Madeleine Cleary: Hi, it's Madeleine here.
• 36:36
  Madeleine Cleary: A quick update about the book deal podcast.
• 36:38
  Madeleine Cleary: So after a year of our podcast and 51 episodes, we're looking to grow our community.
• 36:44
  Madeleine Cleary: If you've been enjoying the show, I wanna help.
• 36:46
  Madeleine Cleary: Keep us bringing you conversations about the writing life.
• 36:49
  Madeleine Cleary: We'd love for you to join our Patreon for the cost of just a coffee per month.
• 36:54
  Madeleine Cleary: Your contribution will be going directly to cover the costs of our podcast, and it also means we'll be able to keep paying our sound producer Brogan.
• 37:02
  Madeleine Cleary: We've got lots of exciting things planned for our patrons, and we can't wait to share more as it all unfolds.
• 37:08
  Madeleine Cleary: So if you'd like to come along for the ride, head to patreon.com/the book deal podcast, or just click on the link in our show notes.
• 37:16
  Madeleine Cleary: And we'd love to have you on board.
• 37:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Thanks so much for listening and for being part of the Book Deal Podcast family.
• 37:26
  Tina Strachan: Thank you for listening to the Book Deal podcast.
• 37:29
  Tina Strachan: If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our new EPS drop and to keep up to date with what the pod is doing.
• 37:38
  Tina Strachan: You can also find us on Instagram.