Latest / Age Defiantly with Mark Young / [Ep 10] Can Your Clothes Help You Recover Faster | Seth Casden

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[Ep 10] Can Your Clothes Help You Recover Faster | Seth Casden · Age Defiantly with Mark Young

• 0:00
  Welcome to Performance Driven Living, the podcast where we question everything.
• 0:05
  We don't tip to around tough topics, we walk right into them, not to provoke, but to
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  get closer to what's real.
• 0:13
  You might not agree with everything you hear, and that's okay.
• 0:17
  The show isn't about being right, it's about being real.
• 0:20
  These conversations are meant to stretch your thinking, challenge assumptions, and spark
• 0:25
  something deeper.
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  The views shared are those of our guests and may not reflect those of the host or team.
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  And while we dive deep into health, performance, and transformation, this is not medical advice.
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  Talk to your doctor before making changes to your health or lifestyle.
• 0:42
  Take what lands, leave what doesn't, but whatever you do, don't stop questioning.
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  We are here with Performance Driven, living again, I'm your host, Mark Young, and I am
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  joined here by my new friend, Seth Kassden, and actually I met Seth at a conference recently,
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  and was fascinated by his work.
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  And I actually, we bonded over some shared trauma, which is shared trauma over a totally
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  different situation, which is kind of funny.
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  But Seth, I want to give you a proper introduction, and I say, my team does such a great job
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  of writing these that I would be doing you a disservice by actually introducing you
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  myself.
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  So what they have here is Seth Kassden is the co-founder and CEO of HoloGenix, the company
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  behind Celiant, a revolutionary infrared technology that's been clinically tested to enhance
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  cellular oxygenation, improve circulation, and promote better sleep and performance.
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  Does that make sense?
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  I mean, is that accurate?
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  That's great, Mark.
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  They nailed it.
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  I mean, I do hear that, because normally I tell you, some of their intros, just I'm like,
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  wow, that was really impressive.
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  Introduce me if you get a chance, because that was really good.
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  Sometimes I'll get introduced for even a speaking engagement, and I'm like, wow, who's
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  this guy?
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  I want to meet you.
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  Now, Seth, I don't want to dive into a commercial for your product immediately, because I want
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  to make sure that people actually understand what we're talking about here, and there's
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  been this topic that I think you're able to really dig into.
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  This whole world of light therapy has been something that I don't think the world has
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  been ready for for a long time, and a full disclosure, my first entry point, if you will,
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  into biohacking, was about 12, 13 years ago, and I worked with a product that actually
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  was red light therapy that dealt with joint detoxification.
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  And at the time, it was witchcraft, people didn't even have a clue what we were talking
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  about.
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  You're using red lights and all of a sudden, and it was red light and low level laser,
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  but it actually you'd wear it on your knee, and then you would end up with pain relief,
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  because of the joint detoxification that was taking place.
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  And it was witchcraft, people just had no idea what we were talking about.
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  This is snake oil, how dare you, and we actually worked with a celebrity endorsement at the
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  time.
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  You know, Chuck Woolery is?
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  Yes.
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  Chuck was actually the spokesperson for that product, and he would get, like, hate mail,
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  how dare you take money from senior citizens who are in pain with this type of stuff, and
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  it's like, whoa, like this is clinically proven so on so forth, but it was this use of
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  light to actually reduce pain, and ultimately through joint detoxification, right?
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  And joint detox is always going to give you that type of relief, because detoxification
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  and joints is painful.
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  Now your product is something a little bit different, but still working with light, and
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  that is you, you run a company called Celiant, C-E-L-L-I-A-N-T, and Celiant is using our,
• 3:56
  to give me, tell me if I'm doing this wrong, it's actually using our own body heat that
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  we're emitting on a regular basis, just sitting here, we're emitting heat, kind of like
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  you would find in like a night vision goggles, right, you see that.
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  But you're able to take that and convert it into infrared light.
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  That's exactly right, Mark, and the underpinnings are very similar to the experience you had,
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  and we've been called the same, you know, voodoo science or what have you, and it is clinically
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  validated and clinically proven, and the real underlying trigger for these benefits is
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  circulation, like you said.
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  So increasing circulation, whether it's to the joint for joint detoxification, or to
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  your elbow, or any part of your body is going to help improve the performance of that
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  part of your body.
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  And so what we do with Celiant is we harness the body's energy, we're giving off about
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  100 watts of energy, just sitting here talking, so we can power a light bulb 24-7, even
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  while we're asleep in the dark, you know, that heat that's constantly coming off.
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  And Celiant, the minerals that are embedded within products that have our technology, absorb
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  that heat, and then convert it to infrared.
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  So we're changing heat energy to light energy, and near mid and far infrared have these
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  various health benefits.
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  Now, now when people think of light, I'm going to say this, like, so full disclosure, I used
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  to own a tanning salon years ago, and I will say maybe that was a biohack, because one
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  of the things I would tell people was that tanning is a biohack, right?
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  Like, what are we doing?
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  We're actually making our bodies defend themselves because we aesthetically like the result, and
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  that is, we go out in the sun, the body tans, but the body tans to protect itself from
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  the sun.
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  It's like throwing up a barrier so that we don't bake from the inside out, and we're like,
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  oh, look at me, I'm sexy.
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  Like, it's just like the weirdest thing, but it's a biohack, right?
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  And so I would always talk in this, and people think, oh no, sunlight's bad, sunlight's
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  bad, and I'm like, in the biohacking space, we all know that sunlight is not bad.
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  In fact, I would tell you, sunblocks are bad, but the reality is, is that when we would
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  be in the tanning business, one of the things that we would always explain is that there's
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  three different types, four really invariations on the mind, agree, a visible light, okay?
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  We've got UVB light, is the one that we talk about most often in the tanning business,
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  and that is UVB light is shortwave ultraviolet light, and it actually will not really penetrate
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  deep into the skin, but what it does is it actually triggers the body's natural production
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  of melanin, and melanin is actually a pink secretion, and that pink secretion migrates
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  to the surface of the skin, ultimately that UVB light triggers that, but then UVA light,
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  which is longwave ultraviolet light, oxygenates that melanin, and the byproduct of that oxygenation
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  process is it turns brown, right?
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  UVC light, we tell people, try to avoid, but you're only going to get UVC light through
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  the sun itself, but those are all visible, I can see those lights, but buried beneath
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  all of this is infrared, and infrared light is invisible, we don't see infrared, and
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  because of that, people don't realize what's going on with it, right?
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  Like if I can't see it, maybe it doesn't exist, but I'm like, well, there's a lot of sounds
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  I can't hear either, like a dog whistle, like, well, I can't hear a dog whistle, but a dog
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  can, but does that mean that it's actually not making a noise?
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  That's a great analogy, I haven't used that one before, but just let's get, yeah, thank
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  you, just because something's invisible doesn't mean it's not working, right?
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  You can look at things that go the other way, a small amount of something can kill you
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  that you don't even see, but you notice like if you're in a city that has poor air quality
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  and the pollution, you're going to notice that over time, you talk about ultraviolet light,
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  as you have longer wavelengths of light, you get into the visible and then beyond visible
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  than near mid and far infrared, and that's where you know, you've all seen the movie
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  predator, right? That's how the monster sees and hunts prey in the camouflage of the
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  forest, and our bodies are emitting infrared constantly, but the benefit of our technologies
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  were actually not only reflecting back the infrared coming off the body, but we're taking
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  the heat coming off the body and creating new infrared that goes back into the body.
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  Now what is the benefit of infrared body? Because we're talking about red light, but what
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  is the benefit, but red light's visible, what's the benefit of infrared light, not just red,
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  but infrared? So infrared light, again, if you look at the clinical work out there, the papers
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  that have been in the work that's been done, it triggers the body's production of nitric oxide,
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  it increases the microdilation of the capillary bed, and it really helps to stimulate the
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  production of ATP. And so our clinical endpoint is an increase in tissue oxygenation, and
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  that's one of the main benefits of exciting or emitting infrared onto the body, and that
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  increase in circulation is what leads to promote all these other benefits. So I literally
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  just finished a podcast a moment ago where I was the guest, and some people know this,
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  I mean, I don't make it any kind of weirdness, but like, I also have an investment in any
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  cardiovascular company that actually does this in people way. But what does this do? And
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  I'm like, well, here's another one to tell you, like, obviously, if you're working in your
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  cardiovascular system, you're going to notice things like, like, oxide production, we're going
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  to notice things like a blood pressure reduction and so on. And my problem is, is that the cardiovascular
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  system where blood goes that, you know, health is everywhere, right? Like, health of those
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  were blunt flows, the phrase we use. So the reality is, is like, you're not just noticing a
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  cardiovascular result, you're noticed in uplifting. This is the rising tides that lift all ships,
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  that when you increase blood flow, especially as you're saying at a micro level, you're noticing
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  things you've never noticed before. Absolutely. Like, all of your systems start functioning better,
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  and that could be all over the place. I've got a bizarre question for you, and I'm sure you've
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  thought of this already. But you're talking about a release of nitric oxide, the company that I
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  work with is called zone house, okay? Phenomenal exercise equipment. We'll talk offline because I think
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  there's actually something we could work on with that because you're producing nitric oxide as well,
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  you're increasing blood flow, like benefit benefit, all good. But you're making clothing,
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  making underwear makes to be the obvious solution. That seems obvious because nitric oxide reduction
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  for men, men quite often leads to erectile dysfunction, which is a circulation problem. Absolutely.
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  And usually, what I will say is that men who are having erectile dysfunction issues, that is not
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  the problem. That's a symptom that's telling you you have a cardiovascular problem. And if you don't
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  fix the cardiovascular problem, it doesn't matter what you're doing down there. Nothing's functioning
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  the way it should. That's just what you're noticing first. Well, you're right on point, and it's not
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  a bizarre question. So we've had programs with Jockey, we have a program with Duluth, they call it
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  Redwood Underwear for date night. So they like to have a amazing on point marketing campaign.
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  And I've got a pair on right now. So full disclosure, there's no new folder.
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  Not full disclosure. But I mean, literally, that just makes sense. But the same thing would be true
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  of sports recovery because nitric oxide and blood flow actually helps in muscle recovery.
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  I'm happy. So yeah, we'd say having it anywhere near your brain. Well, that's why we launched
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  the dream pillow, right? So exactly our first product here at the Biohacking conference, we decided
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  to start with the pillow, sleep hygiene is so important, so critical. You know, eight hours of
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  bad sleep is not, you know, you'd rather have six hours of good sleep. So it's not just the time
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  that we're told we need more sleep hours with some quality of sleep. And you know, I wear a
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  whoop. I like to measure my time and my quality of sleep. Yeah, exactly. And with this pillow,
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  your increased circulation to that part of your body, the neck up, and your brain, the only time
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  it can detox is during sleep. And so having increased circulation while you sleep, you're going to
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  just have more, basically more cleaning of your brain. You're going to wake up with more rest,
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  and it's going to help thermoregulate. So the benefits of increasing circulation, if you're cold,
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  you increase circulation to get warm. And paradoxically, if you're hot, you increase circulation to
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  cool yourself. So increasing circulation and thermoregulations, how our body maintains itself
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  through circulation. And so this pillow is going to help people, if they're too hot, it'll help
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  them cool, if they're too cold to help them warm. And then they're going to have increased circulation.
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  And there's some really cool far out things too in terms of like dream recall, when you increase
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  circulation to the brain, it helps with lucid dreaming. And there's a lot of other things that
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  can be really interesting to look at down the road. Two things. And the truth is probably the
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  marketer in me is just like I got my head going in 6,000 directions of how you've got verticals
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  all over the place, which you obviously know because you've been doing this for 25 years. But
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  the things across my mind, the first one that crosses my mind is the idea that you mentioned about
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  detox. And that is, I don't think people realize so detoxification, huge issue in my brain,
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  not my brain specifically, but something that's always on my mind is how are we properly detoxing?
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  And I take tons of supplements every day and I actually categorize them into four different
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  four different areas. And one of them is performance, one of them is nutrient depletion,
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  like what am I not eating that I need to? One of them is anti-aging. And the fourth whole
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  category is what am I doing to detox better? Because the best way to not cause a problem is to
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  eliminate before the problem ever festers, right? But one of the ways that that happens were so
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  many people and they don't think they realize it is poor blood flow leads to built up detox as we
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  started off talking about red light and a joint. And that is toxins actually get, I'm going to use the
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  wedged for lack of a better term. It's like something that's relatable to people. I mean,
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  imagine the case that you end up with like rust on the inside of a pipe, right? Like,
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  like things just get stuck and nothing shakes it loose or it just gets stuck in a corner and a
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  crevice kind of like an eddy and a river where garbage just ends up, you know, moving around in
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  circles. But the same thing happens through the cardiovascular system, right? Like,
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  absolutely. I mean, another it's a build on what you're saying. If you have a kink in a hose and
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  you turn up the pressure to clear it out, right? You want to rust pops off, right? And so if you can,
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  I grew up with my grandparents who actually ran a plumbing store like, and that I used to laugh
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  because I didn't understand it. And then my grandmother always taught us that if the water is off,
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  never turn the faucet on full speed when you turn the water back on. And I was always like,
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  why wouldn't you want to do that? And ended up learning that if the water ends up getting turned
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  off in your house, slowly turn the faucet back on. Because if you turn it on too fast,
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  you end up pushing out rust and toxins and everything that you've built up on the inside of the pipe,
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  which does question the fact, what do you want to do with the rust that's actually on the inside
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  of the pipe anyways? But nevertheless, like this idea of anti-oxidation, right? Like, how does this
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  increase circulation just increases detox throughout the entire body? Because the body's natural
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  bent is to expel anything that wouldn't be there. Right. And, you know, talking again about your
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  point about how things have changed at the archetym, if you asked a cardiologist 20 years ago about
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  infrared, it's hoey. We're now having people come to us saying, my cardiologist said, I need infrared.
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  Like, can you explain this? Does this help me? And so the medical community is really understanding
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  the nitric oxides of asyl dilator. So anything that can help improve blood flow throughout the
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  body is going to have a benefit. And if you take somebody who has a chronic condition and you ask
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  the attending physician, if I increase circulation of your patient, will they get better, stay the same
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  or get worse? It's almost unequivocally they'll get better. It's just, yeah, almost nearly 100%
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  of the time the answer is going to be get better, right? Like, I mean, maybe if the person has cancer
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  or something, increasing blood flow isn't necessarily in your best interest because then you may just
• 16:09
  spread the cancer. But, but yeah, I mean, nine out of 10 times the answer is yes, which my second
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  question for you speaking of chronic disease, you talk about micro circulation. And I don't think
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  a lot of people pay attention. Like, we think we've got veins and arteries, but we also have this
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  capillary and even micro capillaries that are moving particularly to the extremities.
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  And anybody with diabetes knows what I'm talking about, right? I'm really glad you're bringing that
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  up because one of the misconceptions in the beginning was we're talking about blood oxygen levels
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  and we're not, you know, people with circulation problems have excellent blood oxygen levels.
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  Just not everywhere, right? And when you're getting the peripheral blood flow, you can measure
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  arterial blood flow in liters per minute and put a device in it's very easy to measure that. When
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  you're looking at the capillary bed and peripheral blood flow, the really isn't even direct measurements.
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  You're looking to indirect measurements like laser Doppler or transcutaneous partial pressure of
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  oxygen, sort of a mouthful, but that's what we use as a TCPO2 machines to measure the oxygen
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  gas discharge from the body. And so the more oxygen that's being discharged as an inference,
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  you have better circulation. And when you talk about people with diabetes, there's an amputation
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  of 30 seconds in the United States, right? Because of poor circulation. And these people, I equate it
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  to a gas tank, you know, where it full, you can be at 7-8 circulation and you'll lose your toe.
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  It's not like the tanks that have full or quarter empty, you know, left. It just drops below a
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  critical threshold and then the tissue is non-viable. So if you can increase four, six, eight percent
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  local circulation tissue oxygenation, you could take someone from being systematic to asymptomatic.
• 17:46
  Well, yeah, because just that poor blood flow can turn gangreness on a person before they even
• 17:52
  realize what's going on, right? Like it's done before the, by the time you notice it, it's too late.
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  You've already ended up with that cell death. So second question, we used to get asked all the time
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  when I worked with a red light company years ago, right? My first intro to biohacking. You may
• 18:07
  learn I've had a few lessons since then. But the red light therapy that we dealt with, the second
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  most common thing that we would ask as a person would say, okay, I get that it's literally
• 18:18
  form factor went around a knee. Can I put it over my foot? Like, would this help with neuropathy?
• 18:25
  And that was one of the most common questions we got asked. Now, didn't have any clinical
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  data be able to answer the question? Also, the word neuropathy is FDA protected. So I couldn't say
• 18:34
  yes anyways. Right. But anecdotally going back to those testimonials, we would have people who
• 18:40
  would take that half moon dome and literally just put it on the floor over their feet and would
• 18:46
  report that they had feeling in places they didn't have feeling before. Much like your person
• 18:50
  who chopped your finger, right? Right? Yeah, we have a published study on foot neuropathy,
• 18:55
  patients with foot neuropathy and looking at reduction in pain, which is very hard to measure with
• 18:59
  the control because people always feel better in the placebo and to have such a significant
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  improvement on the active was remarkable and what led to getting the paper published. And
• 19:09
  it's a local effect to your point, right? And at this point, our science and our data has allowed
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  us to say we're FDA determined medical device in general wellness product to increase circulation
• 19:19
  for healthy people. And there needs to be more clinical work or more studies published to show how
• 19:26
  it could help impaired people that have maybe rain odds or diabetes, foot neuropathy. But everyone
• 19:34
  understands that if you can increase circulation, these people are going to feel better on the whole.
• 19:39
  Yeah, I'm going to ask you. We talked about shared trauma. And our shared trauma that we didn't
• 19:44
  really unpack and say what that was is that we've both spent years dealing with the FDA. Yes,
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  now I will always come out and say that I believe that the FDA is always doing what they think is
• 19:56
  correct. I don't want to get into conversations with anybody about corruption and government
• 20:00
  bureaus and whatever unnecessary to the conversation. But the reality is that in my years of dealing
• 20:07
  with the FDA, it's been regarding Zona. And we're actually now in our second FDA clinical trial
• 20:14
  and trying to get an FDA approval that actually proves that this lowers blood pressure. Even though
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  I have dozens upon dozens of clinical studies that have been done by the likes of Johns Hopkins
• 20:27
  and Mayo Clinic, saying that isometrics actually leads to increase circulation and decrease
• 20:34
  his blood pressure. But you can't say it unless the FDA says yes. Right. Right. And you have to do
• 20:40
  very different types of studies than what would be done otherwise. And it doesn't matter. And all
• 20:44
  this week, you get it. You had the same struggle. Yeah. And I also have the same perspective quite
• 20:51
  honestly. I think they made our science stronger. I think they're reacting from a place of integrity
• 20:56
  and wanting to make sure that it was safe. You know, we get questions like how do I plug in the pillow?
• 21:02
  You know, just the idea that it's powered by you is, is such a new, you know,
• 21:07
  used to having to buy batteries or plug something in. And, and so there was a education process
• 21:11
  for both sides. And we had the clinical, you know, some of the clinical research we published
• 21:16
  more studies since then. But we didn't have some of the steps in between. And so, you know,
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  the FDA, I think really going through that rigorous process sharpened our science, sharpened our
• 21:26
  ability to explain what's happening in the body and how it works. And we're able to tie the
• 21:32
  presence of the minerals to a mechanical test showing the increase in emissivity. And then
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  that that emissivity increase leads to these clinical results. And so, you know, yes, you wish
• 21:43
  it could have happened faster or with less, you know, turns along the way. But at the end of the day,
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  you know, we're very, we're very glad for the experience. I love that perspective. Part of the
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  so some a person, I always say, I know a little about a lot, right? And I can hold my own in most
• 22:00
  conversations, I think. But the one thing that I'm always willing to do is admit if I'm wrong.
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  And which is funny, because I get accused a lot of always wanting to be right. It is not a
• 22:12
  paradox. It is a paradox, right? And I'll have people who say things to me like, well, you're always
• 22:16
  right. You always think you're right. And my answer is always no. But if I thought I was wrong,
• 22:22
  don't you think I would change my opinion? Sure. And I'm like, that only logically makes sense.
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  If I, why would I hold a belief that I believe to be wrong? Like, that's not a belief at all.
• 22:31
  That's ridiculous. Like, I don't live with that type of, you know, the dissonance in my head.
• 22:39
  But one of the things that I'm always willing to say, and I love what you just said about
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  made our made our science stronger, that is, I believe that the FDA actually pushes the good stuff
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  forward and makes it better and maybe takes some of the more questionable stuff and keeps it
• 22:56
  off to the side for a few more minutes. And part of that is, and I'll say, I want people to always
• 23:02
  challenge my beliefs because I believe that there's, including the FDA, there's only two outcomes.
• 23:08
  You know, if you challenge my beliefs and make me defend what I believe to be true, I either,
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  A, as in your case here, end up with a stronger defense. Like, you made me get even deeper into my
• 23:22
  belief. And now I believe it even stronger because you made me prove it to myself as well as
• 23:27
  everyone else. Or you proved me wrong and then fixed my perspective because if I'm wrong,
• 23:32
  then cool. Now, at least I know what's right. Like, there are no bad outcomes there.
• 23:37
  I couldn't agree more. And I feel like you're inside my head at this point because one of the
• 23:40
  things I would say to people is, if this doesn't work, the sooner I know, the better I can go on
• 23:45
  to do something else. So I'm open to the possibility that this is all hogwash and doesn't work.
• 23:50
  But the reality is it does work. And the more validation, the more science, the more it proves that
• 23:54
  it works. So the more convinced cyan that what we're doing is based on real science. And the more
• 23:59
  science that you get proved that the harder you work to make sure that the rest of the world sees
• 24:03
  it. And if it is proven wrong, then you can go open a pizza rear or something. Exactly. Like,
• 24:07
  it's ridiculous to think that you wouldn't want your work challenged. Like more projection of
• 24:13
  the other person that they're not open to seeing that they might be wrong. And so the just figure,
• 24:17
  you must not be because I agree with you. Like, don't, don't project onto me. Yeah. Like, I love it.
• 24:24
  Like, my team hears this for me all the time. Like, I don't want to be the smartest guy in the room.
• 24:28
  If I'm the smartest guy in the room, I picked the wrong room. Right. Like, I want, it's why I love
• 24:32
  like the conference that you and I were just at recently. Like, I love that room. And Michael,
• 24:37
  Michael Fishman, who operates that conference, he, he always uses the phrase about, you know,
• 24:42
  how many of you in here feel like you have imposter syndrome? And he asked that question.
• 24:45
  The Lazy, the first time I ever attended that conference, I was sitting there and I was like,
• 24:52
  what in the world am I doing in this room? Like, the minds and careers and quite frankly bank accounts
• 25:00
  of the people sitting in this room. Like, we are not the same. Right. Yeah. And it was funny
• 25:05
  because and then he's that same day, he's like, some of you in here might be experiencing
• 25:09
  posture syndrome and so on and so forth. And I was like, oh my god, he knows me. Yeah.
• 25:13
  He sees how nervous I am. My aunt shot up. Yeah. What was funny? I'm happy to say that. Yeah.
• 25:18
  So you remember that moment in this year's conference because when he said how many of your
• 25:23
  experiencing imposter syndrome right now, my hand didn't go up. And then I was like, I started
• 25:30
  questioning because I'm always willing to be wrong. And I'm like, was that arrogant of me to say
• 25:33
  that I don't have imposter syndrome here? And it's like, I actually had to decompress that moment.
• 25:39
  And I was like, why wouldn't you say you an imposter syndrome? Because everybody in this room is
• 25:43
  smarter than you and everybody in this room has more money than you and everybody like, and I start
• 25:46
  going through this. And I'm like, no, that's exactly why you're in this room. Like, you don't feel
• 25:52
  imposter syndrome this time. Yeah. Because that's why you're here. I want to be in a roomful
• 25:58
  of people that are in better than me that doesn't make me the imposter that makes me the student.
• 26:02
  Exactly. And no more than a student in a roomful of teachers isn't an imposter. You're a student.
• 26:08
  I know. I mean, that was hard for me to go through that and just accept that I'm here to learn.
• 26:13
  And I'm here to soak up what this room has to offer. And you know, the way Michael leads that
• 26:18
  conference is how can you help other people and how what can you do to serve? And that's such a humbling
• 26:23
  always. And I think, you know, what can I possibly offer? And then you start to realize all the gifts
• 26:27
  that we have that maybe, you know, we don't recognize. It's incredible. That's absolutely incredible.
• 26:32
  And it was so fun for me because like I said, that was a moment for me because I'm like, I felt
• 26:36
  like an imposter so many times been going to that same conference for years. And it was like,
• 26:41
  I've always kind of had that edge in this year. I didn't. And I was like, oh, that's kind of
• 26:46
  interesting. I didn't feel like an imposter this year. Why didn't I feel like an imposter this year?
• 26:50
  And it dawned on me afterwards. And what's funny is like later on that night, even going back to my
• 26:54
  room, I was just like, I didn't feel like an imposter this time. And I'm like, why? Well, because I
• 27:00
  want to be in rooms that are bigger than me. Yep. I want it every time I walk in a room. I want
• 27:05
  people there that can feed into me. And it's funny because like afterwards, I literally had the
• 27:13
  take on that I was like, wow, that was this moment of either prove me wrong or prove me right.
• 27:19
  And I was like, it proved me right. It was like, I don't feel like an imposter because the proof
• 27:25
  was, I'm here to learn. I'm here to be fed. I'm here to give anything I can. And also felt like
• 27:33
  I have some very unique gifts that a lot of people in that room don't have. Like I have something
• 27:38
  to give even in a room full of people that I deem my superiors, right? Like I even have something
• 27:43
  that I can offer some of you in there. And I literally spend three days doing anything. I'm a
• 27:49
  marketing guy. You know that. Like that's not a secret. And it's like in that room, like people will
• 27:54
  constantly walk up and ask me questions. But yeah, absolutely. I'm not signing contracts. Like I'm
• 27:59
  not there to get anybody to do business with me. I just want to help. Yeah. If there's something
• 28:03
  I can see, I'm like, hey, you know what? I'm actually going to do this. Let me introduce you to
• 28:06
  so and so like, I just love the networking and just being able to help facilitate those conversations.
• 28:12
  And and because of that, I'm not an imposter. Like y'all are smarter than me in there. Like I don't
• 28:17
  understand how to take heat energy and turn it into to infrared light. Like I would know where to
• 28:23
  start with that. I understand where you're going with it. But I'm fascinated by that by that
• 28:29
  science. And it's here that you felt like you walked in as an imposter cracks me up. Well,
• 28:33
  as my first share, maybe next share, I'll be able to keep my hand down and and confidence. So
• 28:38
  funny. No, but it cracks me up there. That's the response there because there are so many. I mean,
• 28:42
  you're literally in the room with Mark Hyman and Dave Aspery and and Kiran Trishnan. And like,
• 28:50
  like, are we kidding right now? Like this is the room I'm sitting in. And I laugh because I'm like,
• 28:55
  I sat next to Ryan Nidel for a couple of days. And I'm like, dude, like literally like when I
• 29:00
  grow up, I want to be you, you know, even though I'm 10 years older. And it just, it makes me laugh
• 29:06
  because like there's so many aspirational people in that room. And but I look at it now, not
• 29:11
  as a competition. Not that I ever thought of it as a competition, but it's like, it's such a tribe.
• 29:15
  It's a group of people trying to lift the residents of the world and make it a better place. And
• 29:19
  improve the health and quality of our lives because we all have ways that we can make the world
• 29:24
  better and particularly healthier. You have a company that's doing this though. Celient.
• 29:29
  Yeah. C-E-L-L-I-A-N-T. And obviously, you said you're giving away pillows here at the conference,
• 29:35
  which is amazing. But even more than that, Celient is providing this micro-circulation support,
• 29:43
  I'll call it, that you're in where we're where blood flows health goes, right? Like, you're
• 29:48
  improving circulation through this remodulation of of heat energy into infrared light energy
• 29:57
  in a way that's undetectable to the human eye. No one feels warmer when they're around it. Nobody
• 30:03
  is seeing anything. So it feels like a snake oil science to people, but you've got anecdotes.
• 30:10
  You've got clinical trials. You've got FDA approval. Well, we can't say approval, but yeah, FDA
• 30:16
  determination. FDA determination, that's a new one. But the FDA determination is that you
• 30:22
  actually increase circulation in healthy adults because you haven't specifically proven
• 30:26
  neuropathy or something along those lines. But the FDA has even said, yes, you increase circulation.
• 30:32
  Yeah, it's, you know, it's funny not to nitpick on the FDA, but we've been entangled
• 30:37
  in trying to wordsmith this exactly right. And so the FDA has given us the ability to say what our
• 30:44
  intended use statement is, right? And then, but there's this caveat that the FDA has not determined
• 30:49
  efficacy. And so people say, well, you know, we don't understand that. And it's, it's a lot of legal
• 30:55
  issues, right? The FDA is scientists that are looking at a technology, but then they can't be legally
• 31:01
  responsible for whether or not it works. But at the end of the day, the FDA, you know, after denying us
• 31:07
  four times issued our 513G letter that says, we're a medical device, we're intended to increase blood flow
• 31:14
  local circulation at the site of applications and healthy individuals, while it's being used,
• 31:19
  right? So if I take off the product, it's not going to keep working. And, and then at the same time,
• 31:27
  you know, the FDA legal boilerplate is that they have not determined if salient does has any
• 31:33
  benefits. And so you're sort of left with the consumer. You have no benefits, although you increase
• 31:38
  circulation. Right. Right. You can say you increase circulation, but you can't say that you have a
• 31:42
  benefit. We could talk about our benefits, but we can't say the FDA determined those benefits.
• 31:48
  That's interesting. That's interesting. We could talk, they gave us a list of approved claims
• 31:52
  that are appropriate for our type of products. So increase recovery, increase strength, promoting
• 31:58
  better sleep, increase stamina, you know, increase strength. They're all, they're all claims that
• 32:05
  follow from increased circulation. Because when you increase circulation, you have all of the,
• 32:09
  it's a structure function, a claim set. But, you know, I think the point you're making is,
• 32:16
  you know, it's great that we have validated this and it is a real science. And, you know,
• 32:24
  you're talking about, you know, even the etymology of our words, salient, it's cell and reliant,
• 32:29
  because we're harvesting the energy from our body and putting it back in to create this benefit.
• 32:36
  My favorite FDA conversation was when we actually had our 510K intended use statement,
• 32:42
  and it was intended for adjunctive use in the management of cardiovascular health. And,
• 32:47
  so it's such a vague, whatever. And on a call with the FDA, I said, okay, so let me just get
• 32:53
  to straight, like we used a similar phrase, you know, that was, you know, to improve cardiovascular
• 32:59
  fitness or something along these lines, can't say that. Okay. Then we just carved it out,
• 33:05
  be carved it up. And finally, I went, look, can I say, so if I go to the site's homepage and in
• 33:11
  the very top hero image on the website, I say, the FDA says that we are intended for adjunctive
• 33:17
  use in blah, blah, blah. Can I say that? Well, no. Like literally that sentence is on your letter
• 33:25
  head. Like, I can't quote you. Well, it depends on the context.
• 33:32
  Wait, how about if I just take a picture of this letter that you sent me? And I just put it right
• 33:37
  on the website. Like, okay, to do that. Well, you can't do that. Oh, really? They say,
• 33:41
  why can't I do that? Well, because people may misunderstand it. Like, okay, but isn't that your
• 33:46
  flaw? Not mine? That's wild. Yeah, we've been talking about putting our FDA letter on the website.
• 33:53
  You know, we're quoting our letter word for word and we have people saying you can't do that.
• 33:58
  Literally, and I'm like, okay, and it makes it smart because we're trying to take the high road,
• 34:03
  we go to the FDA, we look them up. And it's one of those things we have to ask the right question.
• 34:08
  So we spend a lot of time knocking our heads around on the dark, trying to figure out what the
• 34:12
  right questions were to ask. And then once we started figuring that out, and then we get the letter
• 34:16
  and then trying to understand how to explain that because, you know, it's sort of like certified
• 34:21
  organic. If you can't say you're certified organic, how does the consumer know that you went
• 34:25
  through that process and that you have an organic product? So if the FDA requires that we go through
• 34:30
  them to make a circulation claim, we have to be able to tell people we went through that process.
• 34:35
  Otherwise, our competitors would just start making the same claims and not go through the process.
• 34:39
  So we spend a lot of time with them trying to figure out what, you know, ultimately they said
• 34:43
  that we could say we're a medical device in general wellness product. And I'll share a great
• 34:47
  analogy I can't take credit for, but somebody was talking at the show about the problems they've
• 34:52
  had with the FDA and what a medical device is. And, you know, you can't give, you know, certain
• 34:58
  claims, but you can share testimonials. So if I had an experience where something was made better,
• 35:03
  I can share that as a testimonial, but not to sell a product or not to put on packaging. And he
• 35:08
  said, so if a mom gives their son an umbrella to keep them dry in the rain, so they don't get sick,
• 35:15
  is the umbrella a medical device? Is she giving medical advice to her son? And I thought that was
• 35:22
  so funny. That's so funny. We're always super cautious when we're working with people who are
• 35:28
  using testimonials, because we're like, even if the testimonial is a quote, right, if the
• 35:33
  testimonial is linked to any kind of claim and you use it on your website or anyone else,
• 35:38
  it's you making the right not the cost, right? Like you got to be so careful with that. And ultimately,
• 35:43
  like I said, I believe the FDA is doing what they think is the right thing and that is protecting
• 35:48
  consumers from bad technology or from things that are unsafe. We were fortunate enough that years
• 35:54
  ago, they were like, we're perfectly good with safety. They've never questioned the safety.
• 35:58
  We just have to go through efficacy studies, even though we've gone through it a thousand times,
• 36:02
  and that's fine. Like it'll just make us better at the end. But I love the stuff that you're doing.
• 36:07
  I love that you've taken the high road on all of this kind of stuff, because ultimately that really
• 36:11
  does just prove the efficacy of what you do, because to your point, had somebody proven you wrong,
• 36:16
  somewhere along the way you would have given up already. That's funny, because I've never really
• 36:20
  thought about it in those terms, but I've had that same journey, right? Like I've been doing this
• 36:24
  a long time. If anybody ever proved to the science wrong, I'd have left. Yeah. My eyes are wide open.
• 36:31
  I have to let my time actually work. If I didn't believe it worked, I wouldn't be in the business.
• 36:36
  That's a really bad business plan. But the fact that we're still in it, and as you know,
• 36:42
  I even spoke with that conference about the stupidity of sticking with it. Yeah.
• 36:46
  And it was like, that's the entire point. But we're sticking with it because it works.
• 36:50
  And I love the fact that you've stuck with it this long, even though you did business to business
• 36:53
  stuff and licensed the technology to different brands. Like now you're diving in and doing it
• 36:58
  yourself and going direct to consumer on the way that you sell in. And I think that's amazing.
• 37:02
  I welcome to the club. That's a tough journey. I'm going to be honest.
• 37:10
  Direct to consumer sales is a rough one. And I am super stoked to see you be in the game.
• 37:16
  Because I love everything that we do here in this space and the world needs it.
• 37:20
  What we're going to do is you're going to notice in the show notes there's going to be links
• 37:23
  to the selling at website. And anything that we can get ahold of you will get your Instagram
• 37:28
  handles and sell it. Sellions Instagram handles and get all those here put in the show notes as well.
• 37:33
  Contact information, bios and everything else so that you understand more about Seth
• 37:38
  and what he's doing. Look him up. I mean, this guy years and your decades that you've been working
• 37:42
  on this exact same sign. So you've got you've got persistence that I haven't even proven yet.
• 37:47
  So congratulations. I know there's a few people who are as dumb as I am to keep going.
• 37:52
  But we hope that you've enjoyed this. I love the conversation about converting body heat into
• 37:57
  infrared light because that's just such a cool transition of energy. And it just makes sense.
• 38:03
  Like it's something that I don't think anybody thinks about intuitively. And the fact that it's
• 38:06
  invisible just makes it that much weirder. So I love the woo-woo that you're bringing to the
• 38:11
  conversation with real science. That's what's incredible about it. So check out Celian. I encourage you
• 38:18
  to take a look there. Follow us on YouTube and all other podcasting channels if you're not already.
• 38:24
  And thank you for being here, Seth. Thanks for having me here. It was a pleasure.