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The Hidden Cost Of Psychiatric Meds · Moral Injury Support Network Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Hey, welcome to the Moral Injury Support Network for uh podcast.
0:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm Dr.
0:04
SPEAKER_00: Danny Roberts, President and CEO of Moral Injury Support Network for Service Women Incorporated, a nonprofit organization based in North Carolina.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: Um, today we have a great guest with us, Ellen P.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: Lebensky Esquire.
0:19
SPEAKER_00: She is a Stanford graduate and an attorney who clerked for Chief Justice Stuart Rabner of the New Jersey Supreme Court.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: After spending more than two decades on psychiatric medications and developing a disabling movement disorder, she successfully recovered and now advocates for informed consent, patient autonomy, and greater awareness of psychiatric medication withdrawal.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: Through public speaking, writing, podcasts, and social media, Ellen shares her personal and professional insights to help patients, families, and clinicians better understand the challenges of medication dependence, withdrawal, and recovery.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the show, Ellen.
0:58
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for having me.
0:59
SPEAKER_02: I greatly appreciate your time.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: So uh I'm I'm fascinated by this story.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: I do uh I have provided counseling to one of the women veterans that came to us for help.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, when you when you kind of shared a little bit of your story with me, I was I remembered her and how disabling her psychiatric medicine was.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: She had a uh major alert, I guess, allergic reaction, uh, almost almost killed her.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: And she couldn't, but she suffered from PTSD, so so she needed something, but she couldn't get the medical professionals to to like believe her that she was she was having this.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: Um so I thought of her, and that's one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you um and and really get a lot deeper understanding.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: And who knows how many wet veterans are experiencing these kind of things because the VA, uh, God bless them, has a very has a limited formulary, you know.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: They're only going to give certain medications for certain things.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: And if you're one of those veterans that that doesn't react well with that medication, there may not be a lot of other options.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, and purchasing medication uh uh out of your own wallet is is just un you know not even possible for for most people.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: So uh having said all that, yeah, let's get into your background, your experience, um, how you came to this work you're doing now.
2:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so you know, I am a Stanford educated attorney.
2:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm a Stanford graduate and an attorney.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, I was physically disabled by cardiostonia, a side effect of antipsychotics for 20 years.
2:47
SPEAKER_02: And I recovered to neurologically baseline, which is incredible.
2:51
SPEAKER_02: Um, however, upon recovery, I became a complete insomniac.
2:56
SPEAKER_02: And instead of giving me options and truly informed consent, I was prescribed benzodiazepines for sleep.
3:03
SPEAKER_02: Benzodiazepines helped very briefly, but my tolerance grew quickly and they made me into more of an insomniac.
3:11
SPEAKER_02: So these are the things that I advocate for.
3:13
SPEAKER_02: I advocate for people to ask the questions that I never asked, that I never felt that I could ask as an attorney.
3:21
SPEAKER_02: I think it's so important that anybody feel that they can ask questions.
3:26
SPEAKER_02: And if a provider doesn't give them the opportunity to ask questions, there are always other providers out there.
3:35
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's unfortunate then the military people seem to not have as many choices.
3:40
SPEAKER_02: Right.
3:41
SPEAKER_02: Somebody is labeled and they're told that you need this medication.
3:45
SPEAKER_02: And often those labels are the easy way out for providers.
3:50
SPEAKER_02: Medications are the cheap solution.
3:54
SPEAKER_02: I was not given therapy as a child.
3:56
SPEAKER_02: I was not given coping resources.
3:58
SPEAKER_02: Instead, I was medicated at 20.
4:01
SPEAKER_02: Um, I firmly believe them autistic, and like so many others, I was mislabeled as being bipolar one.
4:08
SPEAKER_02: And that is a label that has stuck with me for a long time.
4:11
SPEAKER_02: Right.
4:12
SPEAKER_02: I thought that that was who I was.
4:14
SPEAKER_02: You know, I actually acted the part because you're told by a doctor you are something, and you believe that to be your truth.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: Right.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: So let me uh back up.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: There's sure a whole bunch of things I want to get into there.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: And as you're talking, like I'm thinking of either my personal experience for some of it, and other people that I've read about, and and so on.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: So I want to back up on a couple of things.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: First, uh, what's a benza benzo biopsy that benzodiazepines?
4:47
SPEAKER_00: Like, what are some of the medications, maybe by name, that are that are those things?
4:52
SPEAKER_02: So benzodiazepines are prescription medicine that is a controlled substance, meaning that you know it is more difficult to get.
5:00
SPEAKER_02: Um, it's Atavan, Xanax, Clonopin, and um Valium.
5:11
SPEAKER_02: Those are the four primary benzodiazepines.
5:13
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
5:15
SPEAKER_02: Um, they are used for anxiety, insomnia.
5:18
SPEAKER_02: There are many off-label uses.
5:20
SPEAKER_02: Insomnia, I believe, is an off-label use.
5:22
SPEAKER_02: The warning that's generally provided now is two to four weeks, or you may become physically dependent.
5:29
SPEAKER_02: I was not told of that um warning when I became physically dependent on benzodiazepines.
5:35
SPEAKER_02: If I had known anything about that warning, I would never have ingested benzodiazepines.
5:41
SPEAKER_02: Um, the warning is, you know, may provide, um may become physically dependent.
5:48
SPEAKER_02: Who am I, as a non-physician, to say whether I will be the one who becomes physically dependent?
5:55
unknown: Right.
5:55
SPEAKER_02: I firmly believe that there should be transparency, that a provider should give you all, give you the risks.
6:03
SPEAKER_02: Handing you a piece of paper that describes the risks that may occur is insufficient because these are things that may occur.
6:13
SPEAKER_02: How am I to know if a physician tells me you need this medication?
6:18
SPEAKER_02: How am I to know whether I should take it or not without a sit-down to just tell me exactly what could happen?
6:28
SPEAKER_02: Um and the risks are are significant.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: So uh you bring up a good point because we're all handed the, you know, when you're discharged or you leave the clinic, you got 20 pages of, especially if you get prescribed something.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: And and the problem is the person's just hurting.
6:47
SPEAKER_00: And um like recently I was having a major problem.
6:52
SPEAKER_00: I went to the VA, and some people were like, Well, you know, don't let them give you this, don't let them give you that.
6:57
SPEAKER_00: I was like, I don't give a shit what they give me.
6:59
SPEAKER_00: I need something, you know, and something because I can't deal on my own with with this, right?
7:07
SPEAKER_00: So people are hurting, they need something.
7:10
SPEAKER_00: A doctor says this this will help, and and you know, who am I?
7:15
SPEAKER_00: And also, uh, because every like on one hand, every prescription medicine they advertise on on the TV, in magazines, whatever, in the doctor's office, has you know all that legal writing of what can happen, dah dah, dah, but you're not gonna take it seriously if you're hurting.
7:40
SPEAKER_02: Right.
7:41
SPEAKER_02: And it also does not, it says what may happen.
7:44
SPEAKER_02: And if you're hurting, and a doctor says that this is something you need, you're gonna take the chance that this is something that will help you.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: Right.
7:52
SPEAKER_02: Um, and even I, you know, I mean, I am a medical malpractice attorney, and I trusted the doctor, and I didn't know.
8:00
SPEAKER_02: And I think the same is true with heart medications.
8:03
SPEAKER_02: If you read carefully the risks, um, you know, you're gonna think that you shouldn't be taking it.
8:09
SPEAKER_02: And you have to people need heart medications.
8:11
SPEAKER_02: So I firmly believe, you know, you need to trust your doctor, you need to have a doctor that you trust.
8:16
SPEAKER_02: And if a doctor doesn't let you ask questions, that's not a good doctor for you.
8:20
SPEAKER_00: Right.
8:21
SPEAKER_02: There's always other options.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: I think um, you know, I I think of a doctor, it seems to me.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's so many issues with the medical industries, we have it right now.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: But if a doctor sits down and says, Hey, what I well, my doctor, I I love that the VA, she is very much a what do you want?
8:48
SPEAKER_00: Here's she'll like lay out some options.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: She'll say, I can give you this, or maybe this, or this, but you know, if you take this, do you want to try this?
8:58
SPEAKER_00: Tell me what you want to do, right?
9:00
SPEAKER_00: Which I really appreciated that because yeah, that's you usually don't get that, right?
9:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, usually don't.
9:07
SPEAKER_02: And I finally found a provider who gives me that, but I've gone through many other providers who don't.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and some of it's arrogance, right?
9:15
SPEAKER_00: Because you get to the point of like, I'm the doctor, you're the patient, I know you don't, and it's this like arrogance of um who are you to question me kind of thing.
9:28
SPEAKER_02: Can ask a question of a provider who tells them you need this medication.
9:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, somebody who goes, I advocate for people to bring a family member or a friend into an appointment to help them make decisions in their wise mind.
9:42
SPEAKER_02: Because I so often have not made decisions in my wise mind.
9:46
SPEAKER_02: Most of the time with medical decisions, you can wait a day or two.
9:50
SPEAKER_02: You don't have to make a big decision on the spot.
9:54
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, unless you have a catastrophic illness and you have a heart attack, even if you are diagnosed with cancer, you can sit back and wait a day to decide whether you how you want to pursue how do you want to treat your cancer.
10:11
SPEAKER_02: And I think that being able to take that step back is very important.
10:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a good point.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: I think part of the issue too, getting to the bigger problem with medical care um is especially for veterans where you get the VA and you get what the VA tells you.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: And and so you don't you don't really get to doctor shop.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: I'm not even talking about in the illegal way, but the legal way, you don't really get to doctor shop, you sort of get the one you got.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, but but the medical system in general, I think, tends to like, you know, how e how easy is it?
10:48
SPEAKER_00: And this is a a a question for me to you, how is it easy for the average person to say, I don't really I don't really like this doctor.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: I want a different one, I want a different opinion.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: Do insurances allow that?
11:01
SPEAKER_00: Do they do they make it easy or is it limited?
11:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think most insurances will allow that.
11:07
SPEAKER_02: I think people are reluctant to do that.
11:09
SPEAKER_02: I know that my insurance would certainly allow me to go to um you know more than one provider to see what the options are, but I've often been reluctant to do that and thought that I had to trust one.
11:20
SPEAKER_02: I'm not certain what the system is for the VA, but I know in my insurance network there's no issues with getting second opinions before you do anything major.
11:31
SPEAKER_02: Of course, you may have to pay for the second opinion, and that is unfortunate because the costs are often prohibitive.
11:37
SPEAKER_00: Right.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: Right.
11:39
SPEAKER_00: I think in there's there's so much focus on your primary doctor.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so so I think people get especially like coming from a military background for me, like I was assigned a primary doctor, I didn't get the opposite.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: So it's in my head that this my primary doctor is kind of I'm stuck with, it's not really familiar for me to think, hey, I'm gonna go down the street and get a different opinion, um, because it's just sort of ingrained in my thinking.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: But I think it makes sense for people to explore that.
12:14
SPEAKER_00: And and um if you're if you're not on if you're not you know limited to the VA or or limited to one, maybe you have a limited insurance plan to at least look at um maybe some other experts in the area.
12:31
SPEAKER_00: The trick is like, who do you can't, and this again, like, can you if if I have um well let me say this so it's my unchallenged assumption, um which are challenging for me, which I appreciate.
12:50
SPEAKER_00: It's my un my unchallenged assumption, and I think a lot of people may feel the same way, that they all have the same in same training, same expertise, wouldn't they draw the same conclusions?
13:03
SPEAKER_02: No, I really don't think so.
13:05
SPEAKER_02: You can go to a different doctor and they will tell you something that's radically different.
13:09
SPEAKER_02: And this is sometimes very confusing for people.
13:12
SPEAKER_02: If you go to one specialist who tells that you know, take all of these pills, and then you go to another one and says you don't need to.
13:21
SPEAKER_02: And then it is very difficult for people to decide which one to trust.
13:26
SPEAKER_02: But medical providers often have very different views on how to treat, especially mental health, I would say.
13:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, no, I mean, I firmly believe that therapy should be the first order of defense for mental health, and that big pharma pushes pills as the cheap solution and the easy solution.
13:44
SPEAKER_02: And that is highly unfortunate.
13:47
SPEAKER_02: No, unless you are openly psychotic, I think that therapy should be offered, um, that you should be given the option of therapy before psychiatric medications are imposed.
13:58
SPEAKER_02: If they work for you, I have no issues with that.
14:01
SPEAKER_02: But I advocate for people to ask questions and to be told the risks before they become physically dependent.
14:08
SPEAKER_02: I also advocate for people to report psychiatrists because psychiatrists, as any other doctor, they do mess up, they do make mistakes, and they should be held accountable for those mistakes.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: Right.
14:20
SPEAKER_02: So if your doctor does something that you think is not right, reporting is something very easy that anybody can do.
14:29
SPEAKER_02: I, as an attorney, I filed a malpractice suit against a psychiatrist.
14:34
SPEAKER_02: This is something that is not very easy to do because most um attorneys will not take these cases because of the um amount of out-of-pocket expenses.
14:48
SPEAKER_02: I firmly believe that doctors do mess up, and when they mess up, they need to be held accountable.
14:53
SPEAKER_02: And so often psychiatrists view themselves as not accountable.
14:59
SPEAKER_02: If a doctor messes up for small things as a medical malpractice attorney, I would advise them to apologize or to say nothing at all.
15:08
SPEAKER_02: Because with small mistakes, like by a general practitioner, these don't merit suit, they merit talking things through.
15:15
SPEAKER_02: And so often doctors are defensive when they make minor mistakes.
15:20
SPEAKER_02: And I think that that is highly unfortunate.
15:23
SPEAKER_02: Because you should be transparent.
15:25
SPEAKER_02: If you make a mistake, you know, okay, let's repair it, let's talk it through.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, how did you how did you recover?
15:36
SPEAKER_00: How did you so you're you're taking this uh medication, it's having side effects, right?
15:42
SPEAKER_00: It's insomnia, all those things.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: How were you able to sort through that and recover?
15:48
SPEAKER_00: Tell us about your recovery journey because that's fascinating.
15:51
SPEAKER_02: Right.
15:52
SPEAKER_02: So I was put on antipsychotics at 20 for bipolar one disorder.
15:58
SPEAKER_02: I firmly believe that I had autistic meltdown with high anxiety.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: And this is something that is incredibly frequent that people are misdiagnosed as being bipolar one.
16:07
SPEAKER_02: And I was prescribed antipsychotics.
16:10
SPEAKER_02: Um, the antipsychotic that I was ultimately took for 25 years was an off-label use.
16:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, I accepted this because it was the easy solution, the cheap solution.
16:23
SPEAKER_02: At 25, I became physically disabled.
16:26
SPEAKER_02: For 20 years, I had a blue hang tag, permanent disability.
16:32
SPEAKER_02: I could not climb stairs.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: I could um could not play on the playground.
16:38
SPEAKER_02: I could not walk on the beach.
16:40
SPEAKER_02: I was told I had zero chance of recovery, none at all.
16:46
SPEAKER_02: I asked for years to be let off antipsychotics, and I was told, no, we just don't take people off after this many years.
16:55
SPEAKER_02: Um, you are going to go manic or be depressed.
17:01
SPEAKER_02: I had to bring my um my ex-husband into an appointment to have him support my no to antipsychotics.
17:09
SPEAKER_02: I thought that might free my mind.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: I never in a million years thought it would free my my body.
17:14
SPEAKER_02: I recovered to neurologically baseline.
17:18
SPEAKER_02: This is something that is incredibly rare.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: And I know of maybe two other people on the planet.
17:22
SPEAKER_02: Hopefully, there are more.
17:23
SPEAKER_02: There are hundreds and hundreds of thousands that are suffering with tardift dysgostonia or tardift dyskinesia.
17:29
SPEAKER_02: They are part of the same family.
17:32
SPEAKER_02: Um, I had my miracle, but um, I was taken off of antipsychotics way too quickly.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: I was taken off in six months, and it should have likely taken years.
17:43
SPEAKER_02: So on the last night of my taper off of antipsychotics, I became a complete insomniac.
17:49
SPEAKER_02: I held out for a month and I was urged to take more antipsychotics.
17:53
SPEAKER_02: And I said, no, I'm not gonna take more antipsychotics that caused me to be physically disabled.
18:00
SPEAKER_02: I was then urged, I was desperate.
18:02
SPEAKER_02: You know, I luckily that month I didn't have um many responsibilities at work.
18:08
SPEAKER_02: And I was put on benzodiazepines.
18:11
SPEAKER_02: I was told that um, I asked, and I was told that benzodiazepines um were not would not cause um did not have addictive properties, and you know, meaning they would not cause physical dependency.
18:23
SPEAKER_02: I was told that high dose benzodiazepines were no issues, no problems.
18:29
SPEAKER_02: I firmly believe I was up to five milligrams of Adiban.
18:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, and for me, their their use quickly diminished.
18:39
SPEAKER_02: They worked very briefly for insomniac, but my tolerance grew very quickly, and I went into benzodiazepine withdrawn, and I became an insomniac.
18:49
SPEAKER_02: Because I have resources and I am very careful with my benzodiazepines, I am fairly certain that the worst things will not happen to me.
18:57
SPEAKER_02: There are many people who go to seizures, there are many suicides, many people have acothasia, which is inless inner restlessness, people spike blood pressures.
19:08
SPEAKER_02: I am very lucky that I have a doctor who trusts me, that I have never misused a substance, I've never been drunk, I've never smoked a cigarette, I've never used illicit drugs.
19:20
SPEAKER_02: Like so many people, I trusted a doctor who prescribed me benzodiazepines, and I have suffered significantly as a result.
19:29
SPEAKER_02: Um and these things are almost entirely preventable, unlike cancer, if I'd known anything about it.
19:38
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I believe that positive energy is so important for any mental health or physical condition.
19:45
SPEAKER_02: If you put on a happy face and you think positively, then you're going to do better than if you sit there saying, um, this is my worst nightmare.
19:57
SPEAKER_02: Whether you have cancer, when you whether you have a mental health condition, putting on trying to be optimistic is always so important.
20:07
SPEAKER_02: Positive energy.
20:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, but these are things I've searched the world for cures, and there is no cure for withdrawal.
20:15
SPEAKER_02: There's no cure for mental health issues.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, there are things that help, but if any doctor says that they can cure you, you know, that is something that is basically impossible.
20:27
SPEAKER_02: Um you have to work very hard on yourself to be there for anybody else.
20:32
SPEAKER_02: And the cardinal rule is to choose yourself first to be there for anybody else.
20:38
SPEAKER_02: And that is something that I have not always done this year.
20:41
SPEAKER_02: I've pushed myself too hard and not taking care of myself.
20:47
SPEAKER_02: But nobody should feel like a failure because they trusted a trusted physician.
20:52
SPEAKER_02: Um, it is not my fault that I have to go to suit that I have filed suit against a psychiatrist.
20:59
SPEAKER_02: Um this has been extraordinarily difficult for me to do, but it's something I do not did not do it for revenge.
21:06
SPEAKER_02: I did it because I want to make sure that this person does not continue um prescribing the way that she'd prescribed from me.
21:15
SPEAKER_02: And I firmly believe I did not get informed consent in this case.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think um, you know, uh going back to your point about therapy, I think that we don't.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: I don't I think we don't put enough stock in in this country, we don't put enough stock in therapy as being um maybe even the the primary way to help people.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of therapists out there, a lot of counselors and all that, but the money certainly uh flows to the the far pharmaceuticals, and a lot of insurance companies like Treycare is absolutely horrible.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: About um mental health, you know, things has been my experience.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: So, so like often people, you know, so therapy, things like uh chaplaincy counseling, spiritual counseling, uh, you know, spiritual modalities, all these things that work on the mind can be extremely powerful and effective for people who have mental health challenges.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh, because you know, mental health challenges are a combination of physiological and mental.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: It's about the way you think, primarily, but it can also include physiological things like chemical imbalances and so on and so forth.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, but we we don't do a good job in this country, in my mind, of giving uh therapy the due and the funding that um it deserves.
23:02
SPEAKER_02: And also the stigma.
23:04
SPEAKER_02: You know, when I was ch a child, therapy was very stigmatized.
23:08
SPEAKER_02: And you know, I thought that I was had lost it if somebody suggested therapy.
23:13
SPEAKER_02: I think it's very important that people know that it's perfectly fine to ask for help.
23:18
SPEAKER_02: And I had always thought that I couldn't ask for help.
23:21
SPEAKER_02: So right now, um my therapy costs$15 an hour.
23:26
SPEAKER_02: My daughter's therapy costs$140 an hour.
23:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:30
SPEAKER_02: You know, we have um we have, you know, it's there are we have coverage for it, but if you do not have coverage, this is too expensive for you to get.
23:42
SPEAKER_02: And a pill, if your child is struggling and you want to help your child, a pill is often the cheaper solution.
23:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I firmly believe that there should be parody funding for mental health care.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: I I can speak to a family member's experience who was having panic attacks and anxiety and stuff.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: And um we there's an organization, I can't remember who they are, I wouldn't say their name probably anyway, but they but they provide free counseling and and and uh different things, you know, it's for specifically for veterans and stuff and uh uh and their families, and and so because uh we'd had some challenges getting insurance to pay for, we we we thought, okay, this might be the way to go.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: We we did their intake process, and they said, hey, we can see the f we can you schedule your first appointment in like three months or whatever.
24:45
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, that is way too late.
24:47
SPEAKER_00: Like this, we need something.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: Fortunately, fortunately, we were able to find a local group that knew how to do the uh tricare insurance stuff and knew how to do all that, uh, which is burdensome, I hear, and and we were able to get her seen uh right away.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: It's local, and uh it's it's been the the therapy has been the most helpful thing.
25:19
SPEAKER_00: Um we did do some medication, but it's uh a low, I mean it's a low volume of medication, if you will.
25:29
SPEAKER_00: But the therapy is tremendously helpful.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: Thank God for the local group that knew how to do this.
25:35
SPEAKER_00: But so you know that isn't always the case.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: When I went to see the doctor about getting some therapy, she said the first appointment would be in October.
25:46
SPEAKER_02: And I mean, if somebody's struggling, waiting till October could be severely jeopardizing their mental mental health.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: If if if if they survive, like if somebody's hurting enough, there's yeah, you know, 21 veterans a day killing themselves, whatever the number is, uh, right now.
26:08
SPEAKER_02: So I also yeah, no, I mean there are too many deaths.
26:11
SPEAKER_02: I also advocate for um better education for 988 operators because all too frequently people are afraid to call 988 because they think that the ER will be called and that they will be hospitalized.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: Right.
26:25
SPEAKER_02: In fact, you would have to be openly psychotic or suicidal for that to happen.
26:30
SPEAKER_02: If you're merely having bad thoughts, you can call 988 and you know they will talk to you for a few minutes and we'll we'll resolve things.
26:39
SPEAKER_02: There's so many people that are afraid to reach out to 988.
26:43
SPEAKER_02: And many of the 988 operators, I've gone to the supervisors at 988 um to advocate for more awareness about psychiatric medication withdrawal because so many um people do not know anything about psychiatric medication withdrawal.
26:57
SPEAKER_02: About over 12% of the population, I believe, has at some point taken a benzodiazepine.
27:03
SPEAKER_02: So this is something that within one hour training, there could be a little bit more awareness.
27:10
SPEAKER_02: I freely admit that I am intermittently suicidal in withdrawal.
27:13
SPEAKER_02: And this is something that is incredibly common.
27:16
SPEAKER_02: I don't harm myself, but I will occasionally reach out to a 988 operator and talk for a few minutes.
27:25
SPEAKER_02: I used to be reluctant to reach out because I thought that um reaching out to a 988 operator would mean that they would call 911 on you.
27:36
SPEAKER_02: And that really is not the case.
27:39
SPEAKER_02: Unless you are openly psychotic and losing it, they will um that's not going to be the case.
27:46
SPEAKER_02: I think that people need to feel free to reach out for resources.
27:50
SPEAKER_02: I hid for so many years, and I, as an attorney, I didn't feel that I could reach out for mental health resources.
27:58
SPEAKER_02: I thought that I would lose my job if I admitted that I was struggling with mental health issues.
28:05
SPEAKER_02: I think that that is extraordinarily common among attorneys and among anybody that's a problem in jeopardy if you say that you have mental health issues.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think um I I think it is important to say, and and you're talking about this, that if you're having mental health challenges, um it's it's not take a pill and you're cured, it's not do some talk therapy here.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: It it may be a very long-term process of but what we can do is you know, we can teach what I try to do is teach thinking um processes, teach like ways, different ways to think, teach um, you know, different um modalities in terms of how to how to calm down, how to whatever.
29:05
SPEAKER_00: And so so if somebody say has PTSD and they go into it realizing, okay, this is um it may not it may not be hopeful or helpful to say I may never be cured of this, but at least be able to say, hey, this is gonna be a long-term process of getting better from this, right?
29:26
SPEAKER_00: Because we want to give people hope.
29:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, yes, it's very important to have hope.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: But then they're going in with their eyes open, they're not looking for, hey, just give me a pill for this to normal me, just give me this.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: It's like, okay, be then they might be more willing to look at a holistic approach of let's look at medication therapy, um, movement, you know, modality.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: Let's let's look at the whole picture of how we can begin to journey through this together so that you can have on a every day on any given day the ability to function, um, do better.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: And if you get triggered, we can here's ways that you can come down from it, you can calm down.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: Now, the now the person's looking at it like, okay, this is gonna be a long-term process, there's gonna be some really tough nights or days, but I feel I have hope that things are gonna get better and better.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: That I think um there should be could be a useful approach.
30:32
SPEAKER_02: There should definitely hope.
30:34
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't withdraw is not considered a serious chronic health condition, there will be an end, but people also need to know that they will need to work on themselves, right?
30:43
SPEAKER_02: No, absolutely if you not have an easy cure, you have to put in the time and the energy to work on yourself, and it takes a lot of time and energy.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I like that because, and that's what I've told people before, too.
30:56
SPEAKER_00: When I get into counseling with them, um, like, hey, look, it's gonna take a lot of work on your part.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna give you some modalities, I'm gonna give you some some approaches that I've used that help me that I know have helped others, but you're gonna have to be disciplined and use these things, right?
31:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, the daily, you know, I may give them daily meditations or daily practice.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: It's what you know, offer them things, and if they say, Yeah, I'd like to try that.
31:24
SPEAKER_00: But I I definitely always tell people, look, this is a long-term, you're you're you're trying to enact a new discipline, new, new ways of thinking, new habits.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, this is not like try this a few times and you're done.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: No, you you know, this is life change um to to be able to maintain, you know, a good state and to and to get better.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's really important also, just what you said, that we're very you know, candid with people.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: And so, and that's again like the the myth of the pill is that I can just take this pill and everything's gonna be fine.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: No, you just like you said, no, you're gonna have to change your whole way of thinking and behaving.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's there's no magic pill.
32:13
SPEAKER_02: And also, people should be aware that no, these pills, they change your personality.
32:19
SPEAKER_02: Um, I was a totally different person on them, and I didn't I didn't like who I was.
32:24
SPEAKER_02: So these are things that if you're gonna take it, you should be aware that this isn't just a quick and easy fix.
32:30
SPEAKER_02: There are repercussions.
32:31
SPEAKER_02: You may not recognize who you are once you start taking them.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: Um can you can you share like the personality change, some of that specifically?
32:43
SPEAKER_02: So when I was on antipsychotics, I was frightened.
32:46
SPEAKER_02: I was afraid to even go on children's rides.
32:49
SPEAKER_02: No, when my child was little, I would not go on the roller coaster.
32:53
SPEAKER_02: I was afraid of it.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: And this is something that you know psychiatric medications will do, they will inhibit your ability to have fun and excitement.
33:04
SPEAKER_02: I couldn't feel things.
33:06
SPEAKER_02: So now that I'm off antipsychotic, you know, I get excited to do things again.
33:10
SPEAKER_02: I have enjoyment.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: My personality was blunted.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: Gosh, there's a fly on my computer.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: I know.
33:16
SPEAKER_02: Fly is like um, yeah, no, but it my personality changed.
33:22
SPEAKER_02: I wasn't, I couldn't feel who I was.
33:26
SPEAKER_02: Um, I was blunted.
33:28
SPEAKER_02: No, I my bar has never been in jeopardy, and I don't maintain my bar, but I was not the person that I wanted to be.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: Did you did you have trouble thinking like you're trying to work on a case?
33:42
SPEAKER_00: And you're did you have trouble like thinking through like brain fog, like that kind of thing?
33:49
SPEAKER_02: Or when I was on antipsychotics, I didn't really have that much brain fog.
33:53
SPEAKER_02: I have more brain fog right now.
33:56
SPEAKER_02: I would in in benzo in in withdrawal, that's something that's very common to have brain fog.
34:01
SPEAKER_02: At points, I have difficulty following screens.
34:05
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I don't watch movies.
34:08
SPEAKER_02: Um and that is something that is incredibly common to have severe cognitive issues in withdrawal.
34:14
SPEAKER_02: However, I can write.
34:16
SPEAKER_02: There's things that I can do, and there's things that I can't do.
34:20
SPEAKER_02: So I try to go for my strengths.
34:22
SPEAKER_02: And okay, you know, I don't like watching TV.
34:24
SPEAKER_02: You know, what's that's not a big deal.
34:27
SPEAKER_00: It's a lot of garbage anyway.
34:28
SPEAKER_02: It's a lot of garbage anyway.
34:30
SPEAKER_02: You know, this might be a good thing.
34:32
SPEAKER_02: Um so you you find your strengths and you concentrate on your strengths, um, and you forgive yourself for the past.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I I think it's that's valuable for anyone of this concept.
34:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay, this is a new normal, but um even somebody who's not struggling with mental health, that concept and those ideas are good anyway.
35:02
SPEAKER_00: Focusing on your strength, um, focusing on what's good, not not what you don't have, but what you do have, um, keeping your mind on on being on how you can serve others and help others, not just what's wrong with me and all that stuff.
35:18
SPEAKER_00: I mean, even if you're not having like you know uh diagnosed mental health challenges, that's a good way to live in general, you know.
35:27
SPEAKER_02: Take care of yourself.
35:28
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I see so many, gosh, this fly is relentless.
35:32
SPEAKER_02: Um I see so many attorneys who work 80-hour work weeks, and at the end of their career, they have not spent time for themselves or their children.
35:41
SPEAKER_02: I believe that you know, our society pushes people to work too hard, and that is unfortunate.
35:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, everybody should be taking time for themselves.
35:51
SPEAKER_02: Hard work is a good thing, but there's a point at which you know 80-hour work weeks that are often pushed in in law, that's too much.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, that's that's more than that's I mean, military tend tend to overwork for sure, but that's even more than military, though.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: Like that's that's that's insane.
36:14
SPEAKER_02: It's a lot, you know, you need to be able to have time for yourself and your children.
36:18
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I want to enjoy my child's childhood because you only your child is only young once.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think the professions, the the quote-unquote profession professional industries where we have professional lawyers, medical, you know, doctors, um, military, like these are all sort of like we're gonna give you great benefits and great pay, but you're gonna earn every cent of that because we're gonna squeeze every last bit of energy we can out of you, you know.
36:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, and the higher you climb in the ladder, the more um work you're doing.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: Like if you if you're a high-paid executive in a corporation, you know, you're day and night, phone never gets shut off, all that kind of stuff.
37:11
SPEAKER_00: Like it's a constant grind uh for that big paycheck, that big home, whatever.
37:18
SPEAKER_00: I think people um so we kind of do that in this country.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: It's like the more we pay you, the more we expect you to work, the more we expect you're committed to this organization, the more you know we're gonna get out of you because we're paying you all this or whatever, or we're giving you this big title instead of pay or whatever.
37:38
SPEAKER_00: And people will sacrifice their entire lives for it, their whole well, their whole being.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I've been guilty of it myself, absolutely.
37:46
SPEAKER_00: You can ask my wife how easy it is, you know, to get focused into where yeah, go ahead.
37:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I mean the stress in the legal community and in so many communities is so much that people lose their sense of self.
38:03
SPEAKER_02: And at the end of retirement, they realize they might have a ton of money in the bank.
38:07
SPEAKER_02: But what's that money good for if they haven't taken time to enjoy themselves in their life?
38:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and they don't have a good relationship with their with their spouse or their children, and then they fall back on that.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: But I provided so much for you.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: Well, we could have used l with less stuff and more of a relationship, you know, uh, because we're very enamored with stuff and so on.
38:31
SPEAKER_02: Right.
38:32
SPEAKER_02: You know, I mean I'd rather earn less and have time for my child and for me, uh, than end up with with$10 million of retirement.
38:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:40
SPEAKER_00: So let's let me ask you this.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, so you talk about advocating.
38:45
SPEAKER_00: What what work are you doing?
38:47
SPEAKER_00: What like what are the actual things that you're doing to well right now?
38:53
SPEAKER_02: Um, no, I have a website, um, EllenLubenski.com.
38:58
SPEAKER_02: Um, I I post public on six platforms.
39:02
SPEAKER_02: I do live on LinkedIn, Facebook, TikTok, and and YouTube.
39:06
SPEAKER_02: I am in the process of creating a charity to spread awareness about informed consent and the risk of psychiatric medications before physical dependency sets in, um, which I hope to launch on my birthday on July 22nd, because I am very lucky to have resources for care.
39:22
SPEAKER_02: And there are so many people who are homeless and do not have doctors who trust them and have to lie to their physicians to get off of psychiatric medications.
39:31
SPEAKER_02: So this is my mission to spread awareness before physical dependence.
39:36
SPEAKER_00: How can how can people either get help from you or contribute to what you're doing or or support you right now?
39:44
SPEAKER_02: Um, so my website is EllenLubinsky.com.
39:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, I have you know multiple podcasts and articles on that site.
39:53
SPEAKER_02: Feel free to reach out to me um by by messages on on that website or on any platform.
40:01
SPEAKER_02: I can't give medical advice, but I can offer support.
40:05
SPEAKER_02: Um and I advocate for people never to be afraid to ask for help.
40:11
SPEAKER_02: Um, if you're struggling, you should not feel that you have nobody to reach out for because there are always people to reach out to.
40:19
SPEAKER_02: Or there should always be.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: Yep, great.
40:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh last thing, if you could just share, if you don't mind, some of the basic things you do um to take care of yourself, to help if you get like in a little bit of a crisis, how you work through it, you know, those kind of things, if you will.
40:41
SPEAKER_02: So firstly, you know, I have three therapists right now.
40:44
SPEAKER_02: Um I try to work out, you know, I go swimming.
40:49
SPEAKER_02: I and I I try to, you know, keep keep myself busy.
40:55
SPEAKER_02: You know, boredom is often the time when your mind goes down.
41:00
SPEAKER_02: I'm part of the a benzodiazepine group that's there for me, you know, 24-7 when I have a hard day.
41:07
SPEAKER_02: Because hard days are not the end of the world, because a better day will come after that.
41:13
SPEAKER_02: Um, I if I'm having a really bad day, I will reach out to 988 and talk for a few minutes if I need somebody.
41:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, I have friends, you know, who I can reach out to and say, hey, I'm having a bad day.
41:28
SPEAKER_02: Can we talk?
41:29
SPEAKER_02: I think that's very important to always be able to reach out.
41:33
SPEAKER_02: I try to meditate, I do um gentle yoga insight timer.
41:39
SPEAKER_02: My biggest issue is insomnia.
41:41
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I do um with I do massage and um you know gentle exercise, and I'm trying to keep get myself back in shape.
41:52
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
41:53
SPEAKER_02: That's exercise incredibly important to any any condition.
41:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, that's great.
41:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think um I I appreciate you being on the show, and uh I I really appreciate what you're doing.
42:09
SPEAKER_00: This is this is an area that uh needs a lot more in in um within the medical professional.
42:19
SPEAKER_00: I know that um again, some family members seeking help for one thing, and how quickly uh the doctor will go to well, I think you're depressed.
42:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm not depressed, that's not the problem, you know.
42:32
SPEAKER_00: So it's like there's a lot of push uh for these kind of medications.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so certainly with veterans, absolutely with veterans.
42:43
SPEAKER_00: So you can if medications are part of the VA formulary and they prescribe it to you, you can get it for like a buck, two bucks for 30 days, it's super cheap, you know.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, and some veterans become that's their identity.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: Of I, you know, I've counseled veterans who their whole identity was that they have PTSD, um, and that they they need this specification stuff.
43:12
SPEAKER_00: Now it's true they have PTSD, but it's like they're owning that and making it drive their entire world and life um rather than saying this is a condition I have, but I'm gonna try to live my life the best way I can, despite it.
43:29
SPEAKER_00: They they just want to be acknowledged you have PTSD, and they they're like happy to be stuck in that in that diagnosis rather than saying, you know, how do I how do I have a better life?
43:43
SPEAKER_00: So so medications are a huge part of what they feel like they have to have.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: Um and and I think there are other ways.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: And so I think the work you're doing is is incredibly valuable.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it taking your pain and using it to support others.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much for the opportunity to be on your podcast.
44:04
SPEAKER_02: I greatly appreciate it.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: Okay, all right.
44:07
SPEAKER_00: So um be happy to have you on again and and uh get an update uh from you next year or something like that, and and uh um let us know how the nonprofit's going and and all that.
44:21
SPEAKER_02: Um so you give me a link when we're done.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: Sure, absolutely.
44:27
SPEAKER_02: Okay, greatly appreciate your time.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're welcome.
44:31
SPEAKER_00: It's great to have you.