Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Dead wife's FitBit says hubby's lying; 'Munchhausen' mom update & kids tortured at daycare

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Dead wife's FitBit says hubby's lying; 'Munchhausen' mom update & kids tortured at daycare · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. Who killed Connie Debate? A pretty
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: mom a beautiful home in a Connecticut suburb. Was Connie
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: the victim of a home invasion, as her husband Rick claims?
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Or was she collateral damage in a love triangle? A
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: security alarm went off, State police rushed inside, and that's
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: when they found Connie Debate in the basement, dead from
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: multiple gunshot wounds. They find Rick tied to a folding
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: metal chair, moaning, telling cops quote they're still in the house.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Connie's husband, Rick is arrested. Debate is charged with murder,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: tampering with evidence, and making a false statement. Could the
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: alleged motive be found in the revelation of a now
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: admitted affair between Debate and an old high school friend.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: He says he impregnated a marriage marked by secrets in lies.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: What we know right now is that Connie Debate was
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: found dead in her home. Her husband, Richard claims that
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: a masked intruder m here we go with the masked
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: intruder breaks into their upscale Connecticut home and let's see,
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: how does he say this? He ties him Richard debate
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: to a chair. Ps. It was a folding chair and
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: when cops got there, he had one arm and one
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: leg tied to it. Okay, but for some reason they
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: didn't tie the wife to a chair. They decided to
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: chase her through the home and murder her. Now that
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: this is the problem, Richard. The husband calls the cops
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: and tells them everything that happened, and then cops get there,
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: they find the wife brutally murdered. No forced entry, no
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: burg re alarm goes off. I don't think anything was taken.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: I guess they just broke in and committed murder and left,
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: you know, forget about the TV of the vc are
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: and the jury and the money. Just you know. Okay,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: that didn't work out, so they left, and they left
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: a witness alive. Oh yes, I forgot one important fact.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Ninette Sosa joining me um. He claimed the mass intruders
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: sounded a lot like Van Diesel, So I'd like to
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: find out where Van Diesel was at this time. But
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: here's the problem, the fitbit. I'm Nancy Grace, this is
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with me. Dr Daniel Bober,
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: forensics psychiatrist, and M. D Ashley Wilcot, lawyer and well
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: known child advocate, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert and professor
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: from a XIX at Jacksonville State University. Nanette Sosa Crime
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter joining us. Nanette, what does a fitbit
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: have to do with Richard debates story two cops. Well,
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: the fifth it and it's actually referred to in some
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: phrases as the murder. The fact is that it shows
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: that she was active at the house, but it was
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: one hour after he said, I just hate when that happens,
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcott. His whole timeline is blown. So the cops
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: show up and he goes, yeah, yeah, they murdered her
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: like two hours ago. And I've been tied to this
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: chair all this time and I just got loose and
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: called you, and then they find her fitbit. I don't
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: know how she did it. I don't know how Connie
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: did it. But after she was brutally murdered, she walked
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: around the house for about an hour and a half,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: logging like what three or four thousand steps? How does
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: that work? Right? And this is one of the first
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: times you hear about publicly using a fitbit by criminal investigators.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: What a great tool this has solved the murder mystery.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: But it did in this case pretty pretty good investigation here.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: And I just think he's an idiot. Let's be honest.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: Not only is he a murder or, he's an idiot
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: when you look at his story, it doesn't make sense.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Late late one night in November, uh, Connie Debate was
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: texting her husband a photo of herself and some sexy
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: lingerie So obviously she had no idea that anything may
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: be wrong within the marriage. But one day before that,
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: back to Ninette's so so Crime Stories investigative reporter, one
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: day before the sexy lingerie photos she sends to her husband,
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: her husband, Richard Debate, was texting somebody else who the girlfriend, Nancy.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: He has a girlfriend. She's ten weeks pregnant. Oh no,
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: wait a minute, Wait a minute, Nette, Ninette, I know
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: that you're used to just rattling off the information and
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: knowing every detail, but I gotta I gotta take this
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: in for a moment. Dr Daniel Bober with me. I
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: think I need to shrink. I'm pretty sure I just
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: heard Nanette Sosa say as his wife is sending him
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: photos of herself and sexy lingerie. He's texting his ten
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: week pregnant girlfriend. Dr Bober helped me out. Do I
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: hear a motive, Nancy? This guy really is an idiot.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: His story has more holes in Swiss cheese. From the
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: first moment and between the fifth bed, it seems like
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: he's all done. Ten week pregnant girlfriend. All right, Nanette?
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: So so this girlfriend apparently somebody he's known since childhood. Yes,
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: according to Richard, they had gone to high school together,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: he told Investigate. When he gives investigators a couple of
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: versions of the story. First and one part, he says
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: that he and his wife, Connie had an untraditional type
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: of marriage, and that Connie was okay with this, and
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: that they planned to co parents, and that that was
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: cheating on both sides. So there's that Dr Daniel Bober
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: hold on holding Nanette. I gotta go back to her
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: shrink on this, Dr Bober Why is it always have
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: you noticed a trend? Now? This is just anecdotal on
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: my part. I haven't done a statistical study. But why
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: is it always the man who is standing over the
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: dead wife's body going, oh, yes, she was fine with
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: me dating other people. We had an arrangement, we had
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: an open marriage. Why isn't the woman ever saying yeah,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: we had an open marriage. Why is it always the man? Bober?
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: It just seems to work out better for men that way, Nancy.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: I'm not really sure why, but it seems like whenever
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: they make that assertion, the only person that can refute
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: that is dead. I'm so glad you you didn't even
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: bother to put up a fight with me on that
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: when ash actually willke out with me, renowned lawyer and
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: child afcan Ashley an open marriage? M No, bull, He's
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: just full of crap. I mean, he's just saying what
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: he thinks he can say to get away with it,
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: because no she I cannot imagine she said, oh yeah,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: that's great. And the other thing is she knew something
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: was amiss with the marriage. I stand by and I've
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: always said, if any spouse, male or female, has gut
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: feelings or writes um things down about reasons to divorce
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: my spouse, you have some sense that something's amiss, even
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: if you don't know what it is. Nanetta Sosa, I
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: so rudely interrupted you, but I had to just isolate
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: the fact that the husband when his girlfriend pops up
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: ten weeks pregnant, says to cops we had an open marriage.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: She's fine with it, Ninette, what were you about to say? Well,
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: there was that one version and then the other version
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: is where they have tracked police source that text about
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: him to the girlfriend that uh, this is getting a
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: slow moved divorce to make it easier on our kids. Uh. Quote,
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: way by way, I've got to I've got to dissect
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: that to Ninette Sosa. A slow moving divorce, that's his words,
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: Richard debates, where it's not mine, a slow moving divorce
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: so as not to affect the children. Yeah, let's just
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: rip the band aid off very slowly to just drag
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: out the pain. Um too. Joe Scott Morgan, she Connie Debate,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: was shot dead in the Ellington home with a three
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: fifty seven magnum What kind of bullet is that, Joe
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, very large bullet, Nancy. Uh A, it's fired
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: from a revolver, which is a weapon with a cylinder,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: and it's a very ominous looking handgun. When you see
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: one of these things compared to say like something in
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: old fashioned special, you know, even more significant though, I
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: think than the size of the bullet which I was
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: interested in, that the killer would inflict so much pain
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: on their victim. Is the fact that we now note
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, this three seven magnum was when her purchase,
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: her husband had purchased just a month or so before
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: the shooting. This is she's murdered with her husband's own gun. Yeah,
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: and there's tie back to that. You can place this
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: weapon in his hand at the time of purchase. And
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: what's really kind of compelling about this nancies the fact
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: that this woman didn't want guns in the house. She
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: didn't feel comfortable around them. But yet he purchased not
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: not a small weapon, but one of the largest weapons
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: you can purchase over the counter. Uh, you know, at
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: a at a gun store where you walk in and say, yeah,
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: I don't you know, I don't want a small one.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: I want to get the three fifty seven magna. To
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober joining me, forensic psychiatrist and medical doctor,
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: the husband, Richard Debate claims that he was subdued. Okay,
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: brace yourself. Debate tells police he struggled with the mass intruder,
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: but that the intruders subdued him by quote applying pressure
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: two debates wrists? What does that mean? Pressure on your wrist?
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, you didn't even have a bruise, bober nothing,
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: You didn't even get roughed up, nothing, Nancy. It's just uh,
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: it's just complete nonsense. I mean he really, he really
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: should have thought it through better if he was going
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: to come up with a story. There's just too many holes. Well,
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: how can you subditct? What? What does it mean to
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: put pressure on your wrists? I guess he's trying to
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: say that he was, you know, trying to mobilize them
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: him by you putting or putting pressure on the wrist.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: So that rate says the intruder put quote pressure on
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: his the husband's wrists to subdue him. Now, how did
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: he get debates? Gun does? It doesn't fit, It doesn't
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: make any sense. Again, as we have learned, Connie did
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: not like guns, did not want them in the home,
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: and there was no indications in their emails or text
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: she had any idea or her husband was having an
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: affair or had gotten another woman pregnant. Now friends agree
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: with that. The friends don't want to be quoted because
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: they are afraid. Why are they afraid, they say, because
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: Richard Debate was released from prison on bond. All right,
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: how did that happen? He was released on bond and
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: is walking free. And during that time, as she willcott,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: he has gone into the insurance accounts and bank accounts
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: and drained nearly eighty thousand dollars out of the accounts.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, does it never end? And I don't know
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: how he got out on board or why a judge
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: would set upon Frankly that he could get out on
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: because from all accounts, the evidence is there. He was
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: in jail. I don't even understand how he's out. And
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: now for friends to say, hey, we're fearful, right, we
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: don't want to quote him because we're fearful and he's
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: been released from prison. Boy, that just adds fuel to
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: the fire of why he doesn't need to be out.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: We also know that he had a secret credit card,
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: has charged about twelve dollars at a strip club, was
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: using it for flowers for his girlfriend and hotel rooms.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: This is during his wife's life. The focus right now
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: is the legal issue of the fitbit. As Nanette Sosa
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: told us, this has been called the Fitbit and murder case.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: I think actually it's going to be like every other
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: test in court, Like with the first time they used fingerprints,
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: somebody said, Wow, I don't have much faith in this,
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: or the first time you used DNA or fiber or
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: hair analysis. You have to undergo a test of reliability
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: and prove that in court. So how are we going
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: to get I mean I I see it being the
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: way of for instance, Sirie and Alexa and on Star fitbit.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: We surround ourselves with technology, we rely on it. And
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: now you know you live by the sword, you die
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: by the sword. How are they going to get the
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: fitbit evidence in that his story is a lie. It's
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: gonna be like a cell phone record. In my opinion,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: it's as an electronic footprint or record that shows exactly
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: where the steps were and when they were taken. Um.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: And so I think it's going to be a series
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: of questions that an attorney will use to lay the
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: foundation to do exactly what you said, which is to
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: show it's reliable electronically. This is the footprint, this is
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: the record, and it's like any other record that we
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: all have to introduce in court to lay the foundation
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: and make it admissible. Um, it's probably gonna be challenged
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: because it's new. But like you said, once you get
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: that certain list of questions to lay the proper foundation,
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: I suspect it's going to be admitted just like a
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: cell phone record. Mind, you know what's so sad. In addition,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: of course her death and they've got little children. Even
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: with his acting out and his bad behavior in cheating
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: which she didn't know about. The cheating wasn't on her list.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: She was still trying to make their marriage work, just
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: doing anything to hold her family together. And now, mommy,
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: Connie Debate has been murdered. Alan, do you joining me
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: with me? From l A Now, a police spokeswoman, UM
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: explained the fitbit. What did she say, Alan, Well, she
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: explains how detectives would they realized that she was wearing it.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: They access the data and it is what allowed them
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: to nail down the timeline of when she actually was killed.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Let's listen to it. So once that movement stops, the
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: fitbit stops, detectives were able to determine the time that
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Connie unfortunately stopped moving. Guys, I want to thank all
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: of you for being with us, not just our awesome
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: guest Dr Daniel bober As she willcott Joe Scott Morgan
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: and Annette Sosa. But to you for joining us. I
• 14:54
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  Speaker 1: thank you for being our partner today. As soon as
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  Speaker 1: he was born, he started having major illnesses, and over
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  Speaker 1: just a few years, this little boy had thirteen major surgeries,
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  Speaker 1: his life in jeopardy, over and over and over with fatal,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: deadly blood infections. After one port and one pick after
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: the next, one catheter after the next, into major arteries
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  Speaker 1: would somehow become infected and sepsis would take over his
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: little body. The pain, the seizures, the operations of surgeries,
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  Speaker 1: this poor child endured, but now he's totally cured. Is
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: it true what police say that mommy had veryon von
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Munchausen by proxy and would make her child sick for
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: years on end, watching him suffer, watching him have seizures
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: from the pain, going to the brink of death and
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: back over and over again. Because if it's true, she's
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: got a one way ticket to hell and she's sitting
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: at Satan's right hand for dinner. That's what I've got
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: to say, John Limley with me crying stories contributing reporter,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: Please tell me this isn't true, that somehow I've gotten
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: the facts wrong. John, it seems to all be true.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: And even before the birth of their son, Nancy, Ryan
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: Crawford suspected that something was wrong with the boy's mother,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: A pregnant Kayleen bowen Wright, would call Crawford in the
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: middle of the night from random hospitals, reporting that she
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: had been admitted for various reasons. Once she even claimed
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: she had a fever a one hundred ten degrees for
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: seven consecutive days. Crawford, Canada one. Can you even have
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: a favor of a hundred and ten? J Scott Morgan,
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: can you have a favor of a d Sorry, Joe Scott,
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: not to emasculate you, but Dr Daniel Bober, you're the MD.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Can you even have a temperature of a hundred ten?
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: It's possible, but you would be dead pretty quickly if
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: that happened. Okay, So you know there's Bober as usual
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: saying yes but maybe not. Okay, thanks Bober. All right,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: back to you, Liveley, I had read into end. Okay,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: go ahead, you're right. Even though this story is over
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: the top, it was nothing compared to the stories that
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: Crawford says Bow and Right would tell after the premature
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: birth of their son, Christopher, who was born after thirty
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: three weeks. Wait did you say thirty three weeks? Thirty
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: three weeks, Ashley Willcott. I'm gonna go to you on
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: this one, Ashley. The twins were born really prematurely. They
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: were thirty one weeks by one day, thirty one three
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: one and lived in the Nick you Neon natal intensive
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: care unit. And I was an intensive care unit for
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: I don't even know how long. It's all a big
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: blurred to me. So thirty three weeks. I'm like, Hey,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: that's not bad, Am I wrong? Ash I don't disagree
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: with you. That's not bad. And uh, from all accounts
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: and the things that I've seen reported, there were no
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: major premature medical conditions that she had to face with
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: her particular child documented by the hospital. Okay, Limley, hit me,
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: what happened? Well? Despite that, between two thousand nine and
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, just last year, medical records show that Christopher
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: was seen, as you've mentioned, three hundred twenty three times
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: at hospitals pediatric centers around Dallas and Houston and underwent
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: thirteen major surgeries. All of this according to Child Protective Services.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: Throughout his life, Christopher has been placed full time on oxygen,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: at times using a wheelchair. He's endured invasive procedures surgeries,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: including being fitted with a feeding tube that fed directly
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: into a small intestine and that's what led to multiple
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: life threatening blood Okay, hold on, I gotta I gotta
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: got to Dr Bober on something. Uh. Dr Daniel Bober
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: with me, hold on, Limley with me. Dr Daniel Bober
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: forensic psychiatrist. And of course you've got to be a
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: medical doctor and then go on to get your specialty
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: in psychiatry. Ashley Wilcott as a very well known lawyer
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: and old Advocate, JOSEPHS. Got Morgan Forensics Expert, Professor Forensics
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State University. John Limley Crime Stories contributing reporter,
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: and Annette Sosa Crime Stories contributing reporter as well. Hold On,
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: I got so carried away with introducing you. What was
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: I about to say? Oh? Yes, Ah. Dr Bober my
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: sister who I love deeply, husband has m MASS. He's
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: had MS for many, many, many years since the late eighties,
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: and he's been in wheelchair bound for a while a
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: long time. And um, you know, Christopher Reeves Dr. Bober
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: also was paralyzed and he would get as they euphemistically
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: called them, pressure points. That's simply a bed sore, That's
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: what that is. And I when I first heard that,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: I thought, Oh, they weren't paying attention to Superman. They
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: weren't moving him, they weren't taking care of them. Damn
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: them to hell. Well, I found out when you are
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: in a bed in a wheelchair for fifteen twenty years,
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: no matter how much you get moved, you're gonna get
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: a bed store or pressure point, which turns into an infection.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: I found out by researching it when my brother in
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: law got sick Um, and my sister. I gotta tell you,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: she works full time. She's up a college professor, she's
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: heads her department. She's raised two incredible, incredible children, smart
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: off the charts, and Um, she's taken care of her
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: husband devotedly. She got one of those mattresses, Dr bober
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: that blows up and then un blows up to keep you,
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: you know, moving. She wakes up in the morning and
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: bathes him and dresses him and takes care of him.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't. She's always been an inspiration to me,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: and she takes so much care of him. But there
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: have been times when Um, through a shot or a
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: Catherine or something. Dr Bebera, you get a raging sepsis
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: infection and it can kill you. Dr Bebera, how do
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: you how did this little boy get that? Nancy? Actually,
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: what you were talking about what they're called venus stasis ulcers,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: and they result from lack of circulation and immobility. But
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: in this particular case, you know, I was saying to
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: Alan that doctors do not communicate. So the way that
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: people usually pick it up, surprisingly is by the insurance company,
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: by the claims that are filed. Because as we know,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: when you have a loved one who has multiple specialists
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: on the case. Very often these doctors do not talk
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: to each other. So I'm saying, I'm saying, how do
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: you from a Katherin or a an I V at
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: the hospital get sepsis? How does that happen? Oh? Because
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: for example, lack of hand washing, lack of sterile technique.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: There's the hospital's billed the bacteria, many of them resistant
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: to antibiotics, and this can happen in the home environment too,
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: And so as a result that Catherine becomes um colonized
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: with bacteria, and then this causes a septic infection. Well,
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: typically when my brother in law has had infections, it's
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: always after going to the doctor or the hospital. So,
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: John Limley, this mom was inducing, according to police, so
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: many illnesses, thirteen major surgeries on a top boy, major surgeries.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: And she would hospital shop, wouldn't she literally, Like when
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: one hospital was say I think we should take him
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: off the feeding tube, she'd leave the hospital and go
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: to a different hospital. Oh. Sure, she was darting from
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: hospital to pediatric care center to hospital. Uh. At one
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: point she even tried to get him on the lung
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: transplant list and had previously had him in hospice care.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: This is according to a court documents, hospice carespice care
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: as if she was saying, you know, his life was
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: coming to an end. It was all a lie, Ashley.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, ash remember last year when I stupidly jumped
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: off the top of a five foot fence like I
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: was Supergirl and tore my a c l am I
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: whatever is down there and had this surgery. Oh the drama.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: And you know it's just like every time there's a
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: surgery of some sort, there's like high drama. This little
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: boy has had thirteen major surgeries. Thirteen. You know this
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: does I don't even know where to start. Let me
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: right right, And so one of the things to keep
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: in mind with individuals who engage in this abuse of
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: children Munchausen by proxy or they're also now calling it factitious.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Excuse me, let's see another yes, and then the caregiver
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: fabricated illness and a child. They either exaggerate symptoms that
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: a child has or even worse, they completely make up symptoms.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: And one of the things Nancy to remember with this
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: is so many doctors really think about when you go
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: to the doctor, when that happened to your foot? What
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: did you do? When you went to the doctor, you said,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: this is what happened. This is how I hurt myself,
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: this is how I'm feeling. Obviously, a broken bone you
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: can see, but if you're nauseous or not, that's self reported,
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: that's not anything the doctor can see. And so here
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: you have this mother who is self reported and made,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: you know what, up all over the map to do
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: this to her child. It is a form of child abuse,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: let's be clear. Well here's another thing. To Joseph Scott Morgan,
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, it's one thing. It's bad
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: enough when we keep seeing these cases where parents neglect
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: the child and they're in theeces and they've got diper
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: rational over their body and their male nutritions, and it's
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: just I want to just go in and kill kill
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: the parents. I want to this that's where they're just
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: totally drunk or high or just don't care. In this case,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: cops are saying, from the time this child was born,
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: the mom was making sure the baby was infected, having surgeries,
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: going into seizures, making up complaints. Actually may a king
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: the child sick on a feeding tube on a catheter,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, Joe Scott for people that don't know how
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: a catheter works, because you explain it. Yeah, it works
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: as as a delivery system where it's placed into the body.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: And as Dr Bober had stated, you're talking about taking
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: a foreign object. Uh though it is technically a medical
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: device and it's it's rife with infection. So just imagine this.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: You mentioned how many times this child has been treated,
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: and we're not talking about treating a kid. Uh. You know,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: why can't men get to the point I said, how
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: does the catheinter work? Catherin goes up your penis? This
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: mom had a catheter go up for child's penis over
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: and over and over. You think that felt good? No,
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: it didn't feel good. The child had a feeding tube
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: for Pete's sake. How does a feeding tube work? Joe Scott,
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: tell me, don't make me Q and A with myself.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: The feeding two very simply, uh, Nancy is placed into
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: the small intestine. And in order to get how how
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: go through your stomach? There? They cut a hole in
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: you and stick a feeding tube into your intestine. You
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: have to have your body cut open. I'm looking at
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: you know, Joe Scott, I want you to take a
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: few moments and consider your answers. You're starting to sound
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: like some highbrow intellectual and I don't even know what
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: you're saying. But I do know. A feeding tube has
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: to go through a cut in your stomach into your intestine,
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: and a cafeter goes into your penis or other. It's painful.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm trying to say. Am I wrong? I'm
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: just a j D. I'm not an empty Am I wrong?
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott? You're absolutely right, Nancy. I mean, look at
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: this boy, I mean, ash Ashley, Willcot, John Afoca. I'm
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: looking at him, Jackie. Look at him. Look at the
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: little face. He's in a wheelchair. He's got a feeding team.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: Look at him, Oxygen going into his mouth. He's got
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: all sorts of bags on a wheelchair. Oh he got
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: something on his arm. To look Nancy, it's like it's
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: broken or I mean it's it goes on and on
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: him shaved his head. I mean, because we know there
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: was nothing wrong with him, John Limley, how long has
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: this gone on? Thirteen surgeries seizures. The child legitimately went
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: into real seizures from pain seven years seven years long,
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: and during this entire time is undergoing ordeal after ordeal.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: His biological father is trying to convince Dallas County Family
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Court judges that his son was not sick in the beginning.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: Of course, he maybe now, but they've believed that the
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: mother who would eventually claim that their son was dying
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: initially from a rare genetic disorder and later from cancer,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Crawford said in a Dallas County uh set. A Dallas
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: County judge even blocked him in late from visiting his son.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: This is the this is the biological father that's trying
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: to intervene in help. In the end, it would take
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: Dallas hospital staff finally sounding the alarm after seven years.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: But I can't blame just them because she was hospital shopping,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: So you can't blame any one hospital because as soon
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: as she didn't like what one said, she got to
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: another one and then circle back later. Um, what about this?
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: Isn't it true? Joe Scott Morgan, you're the forensics expert
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: that at one point she had the child in hospice
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: care for pain management and mommy signed a quote do
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: not resuscitate for her little boy when he was just
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: five years old. Was mommy planning to kill him? Joe Scott,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: I do not resuscitate. What is that? It means that no,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: and I mean absolutely no heroic measures can be taken
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: to resuscitate him in any way. And after that means
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: bring back from life. If he's gone into I mean
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: bringing back to life, he's gone into cardiac arrest. Let's
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: keep in mind she's essentially weaponized medical treatment here where
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: she shopped him around so much you can imagine how
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: worn out his little body is by this point. He's
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: subject to all of these various infections what sometimes are
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: called nosa comial infections that you get in institutions because
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: everybody's every hospitals, menytimes, there's some of the filthiest places
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: on the face of the well, I mean all those
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: sick germs. I remember Dr Daniel Boburg, psychiatrist and m D.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: And my dad had his very first coronary thrombosis. He
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: was taken to specialists in in Birmingham and UM University Hospital,
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: University of Alabama Hospital and a I think it was
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: a oh gosh, it was an infection that spread from
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: room to room to room and there were multiple deaths
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: on his floor at that time, and I, you know,
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: am just thank god he got through that and I
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: had the time with him that I did have. But
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: it's not that they don't clean the hospitals. Is that,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: you know, there's all these sick germs floating around. Let
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: me ask you this, Dr bober Um. The child was
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: in hospice for pain, but then bow and Wright would
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: not cooperate with the eight week plan there aimed at
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: helping him live without feeding tubes, okay, and she lied
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: and said she lied to hospice saying her insurance denied
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: the treatment so she could get him out so they
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: wouldn't get him well. But then right after that, he
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: was admitted to the ICU for a third life threatening
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: blood infection related to a central line catheter. Dr bober
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: What is a central line catheter? ANTI? A centralized catheter
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: is something that goes into the internal jugular vein. It
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: delivers UH, can deliver fluids, blood medicine directly into the
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: circulation and it's a perfect place for an infection to
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: form UH if it's done either in a hospital or
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: with someone who's not using proper serial technique and can
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: cause a nasty infection. Which gonna be life threatening infection. Well,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: it goes on from there, John Limley. When she did
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: not comply with medical recommendations from the hospital, she took
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: the boy out and took him to Texas Children's Hospital
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: in Houston, refusing to provide medical records from previous care
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: at the Children's Health Medical Center in Dallas, and she
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: started the cycle of testing the boy all over again.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: More pricks, more ports in his body, more catheters, more surgeries,
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: more feeding bag. I mean, Ashley, she is diabolical in
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: her evil if these claims are true. To sit by
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: and act like the loving mother when you're torturing your child,
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: it's torture again. It is clear medical child abuse into story.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: The other thing I just want to just want to
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: point out as well, do you know and some of
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: the reports it states that when this little boy was
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: an infant, some of the staff at a hospital observed
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: her feeding him a little bit of a bottle, pouring
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: all the milk out, and then lying to doctors and saying, oh,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: he drank this whole bottle. And so already, when this
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: was a little infant, she was doing things to purposely
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: create all of these medical issues that didn't exist. In fact,
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: detectives had added just in the past few days that
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: these records showed that bowen Wright's mother actually helped her
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: dump those contents from Christopher's bottles. Why though I don't
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: understand why, Dr Daniel bober As far as I'm concerned,
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: she can rotten hell, the whole kit and caboodle as
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: long as the boy gets free. But what causes this?
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: What is munch housing? It's a very rare disordered, Dancy,
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: and as your other guests dated, it's now called back.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: It's what factitious? Okay, you know what I actually think,
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: Baron von Munchausen by proxy, it's actually easier than whatever
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: it is you just said. But go ahead, you and
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcot Can and Joe Scott Morgan can have your
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: your legal technical medical doctor term conversation, but not right
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: here on series six, please speak regular people talk, Doctor
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Daniel Bober, so Nancy. Essentially, the difference between this order
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: and this disorder and m lingering is with malingering, there
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: is secondary gay. With this disorder. The illness role is
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: the secondary game. In other words, people do it simply
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: to get attention, and usually they themselves no surprise, have
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: a history of mental illness, sometimes the history of abuse,
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: sometimes have a history of absent parent figures. And so
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: there are people that are very defective, deficient, and inadequate
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: and they use the illness of their child to fill
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: this void. It's a severe, severe mental illness obviously with Victor, Well,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: can you tell me, John Limley, is she in jail?
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: Just that's a yes. No, that's all I want to know.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: She is being held. Uh, bond has been reduced. Still
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: no word on whether she family members have been able
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: to to raise that bond as she will cut. I
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: think maybe we should let her have a reduced bond
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: under the condition that she has to wear a catheter
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: for the next seven or eight years. What about that? Yeah,
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: let her enjoy that a catheter, a catheter and oxygen
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: and a oken arm and yeah, right awful, you know, Nancy?
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Can can I just add one of the things give
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: people do where they're where it's owed, and that is
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: it's nice to see this isn't a criminal context, because
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: usually you see Munchausen in the context of custody cases.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: So good for them for charging this woman. Take a
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: listen to what Dad says. It makes me feel as
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: if the system wants to believe the mother all the time.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: Were you worried that she may kill him? I figured
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: that one day that that would be the end cause.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: Knowing that your son is being injured but you can't
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: do anything about it, it's the worst pain. Christopher's father
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: says his son now appears to be physically healthy. I
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: am so sorry that I wasn't able to be there
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: to stop the harm that has been done. Unto you,
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: this little boy almost passed away three different times due
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: to infections from thirteen different sort trees. He has a
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: very long road ahead of him. But somehow I find
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: some degree of peace in knowing mommy is in jail,
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: and may she stay there. That's one of my Christmas wishes.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: I want to pause and thank our partners making today's
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: program possible. And one of our partners that I just
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: love is super Beats. My son first heard I was
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: involved with super Beats. He meant, Mom, those are too costy,
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: their four dollars. He thought I was talking about this
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: really expensive set of earphones. He's all about earphones, super Beats,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: B E A T S. I'm like, no, my love,
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: no super Beats. B E E T S. You know,
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: speaking of the twins, wouldn't it be great to have
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: all the energy you wanted all day long? So I could,
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: you know, run with them all day. But fatigue gets
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: in the way even for every activities. I mean, if
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: you're up at five thirty every morning like I am,
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: by about four o'clock you're dragging. It seems to get
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: worse every year. And this is why when you're twenty,
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: your body has a natural ability to maintain healthy circulation.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: By age forty, now don't blow it, Dr Brian Russell,
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: but the twins think I'm eleven and a half, don't
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: mess it up. By the time your forty, that ability
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: has decreased by half, and it leaves you feeling tired.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: What can you do to get that circulation back and
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: fight fatigue? Drink super beats Listen. Super Beats promotes the
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: body's own natural ability to produce healthy circulation, increase energy
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: and stamina all day long and only super Beats is
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: made from beats grown to very exacting standards and then
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: concentrated into super food crystals for us. So if you
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: want to increase your own natural energy, call eight hundred
• 39:55
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• 40:30
  Speaker 1: In fact, I need to drink about a gallon right
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  Speaker 1: now because I need energy. You know, I always beat
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  Speaker 1: myself up, and I'm gonna go back to you, Ashley Willcott,
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: because uh, you know, Mom, and I think you went
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: through this as well. When I first took the children
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: to play school, it was two days a week, and
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: it was three hours at a time, and they would
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: scream and cry, and I would cry out in the
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: hall because I didn't want to leave them. But I
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: was working two jobs and had two book deadlines, and
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: I had to think. I was so tired from being
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: up all night with them. One at one thirty three
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: and five thirty will be up. I was actually seeing stars.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: It's kind of all a big blur. But I would
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: beat myself up for taking them to play school twice
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: a week, Okay, and um that was bad enough. But
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: now I'm reading a daycare worker accused of burning at
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: least five tots with a hot glue gun. I mean,
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: am I reading this correctly? I'm reading one of my
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: favorite papers, The New York Post, which I mean, there's
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: really nothing like it. But yeah, it's five todds Ashley
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: with a hot glue gun. That's right, she did. And um,
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: you know this is a very mother's challenge. What to
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: do and where to put your kids in daycare? What
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: services to use? Can you imagine that? And and my
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: question is how five? How did someone not see her?
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: And they're actually two people charged, so how did how though,
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: did they get away with five? It's bad enough one,
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: but you would hope and think that after she abused
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: one and started burning with a hot glue gun, somebody
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: would have seen it, reported it done. Something I can't
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: understand this day and age the hot glue gun, right,
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, let me get the facts. John Linley with
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: US investigative reporter for crime Stories and Crime online dot Com.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: John start at the beginning, this woman, the daycare workers,
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: what thirty two? What do we now? This story continues
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: to unfold. Nancy in the Logan Square community of northwest Chicago.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: And Yes, a thirty two year old woman has been
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: arrested for burning several toddlers with a hot glue gun
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: at a daycare center. Her name is Losandra Cosmi. She's
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: been charged with five felony accounts of aggravated battery to
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: a child. This is related to a December first incident
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: at children's learning place. Police sources say video show Cosmi
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: burning five two year olds with a hot glue gun.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: According to police, Losandra brought the hot glue gun from
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: home to work on a Christmas project. Uh. She's ordered
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: held without bail at a bond hearing at the Latent
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Criminal Courthouse. And we're still getting details about this now.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: We also hear that the sister insists the system of
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: Cosmi um says that she is innocent and she quote
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: made a mistake. You know what, Under the law, Ashley Willcott,
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: mistake is not a defense. It is not and so
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: she hey, I can't believe she made a mistake. Quote unquote,
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: and b it's not a defense. She's still guilty of
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: the crime. Well. Also, I could see mistake one time. Say,
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: if you're helping a child and the glue gun touches
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: their hand, that's a horrible mistake. You know. Lucy is
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: obsessed with all things craft anything. I don't care what
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: it is. Dr Daniel Bober. She has a glue gun
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: and I gave it to her. So far she hasn't
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: burned herself for anybody else with it, although she's ruined
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: a lot of my glasses by trying to glue gun
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: plastic applications and just all sorts of weird stuff. The
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: other day she got plastic spoons broken in half and
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: would take the spooney part of it and wanted to
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: glue gun them all over the glasses to make the
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: glasses look like a flower. Okay, so of course the
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: end falls off and I'm stuck with these sharp knobby
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: glue gunned on plastic applicase. It's just anyway. My point is,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober glue guns. What can you do to
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: somebody with a hot glue gun? And she brought it
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: from home, she says, for a project. Well, Nancy. The
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: difference and what you're talking about is obviously Lucy is
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: doing it under your supervision, but it seems that this
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: woman was using it uh to discipline the children, which
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: is very sick in and of itself, but it can
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: cause severe burns and obviously severe pain for the child
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: that it's being applied to. How hot do they get
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: to Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert, How hot does a
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: glue gun get and how what burn does that result?
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: What kind of burn does that create? It create? It
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: can create upwards of a second degree burned, Nancy. These
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: things will burn roughly at about two forty degrees Fahrenhegh.
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: It's like an iron It absolutely is. You're talking about
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: taking a solid stick of glue and a lot of
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: people in audience will understand this because they use them
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: and liquefying it, and it's it's a horrible, nasty, nasty,
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: nasty kind of thing. We can get second degree burns
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: roughly at exposures of over a hundred nine degrees. If
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: she burned these kids with this thing when it was
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: going full blast, it could be upwards of two fair
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: Hunt and listen to this, correct me. If I'm wrong,
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: John Limley, because you know the facts so much better.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: There's video, of course, there's the video, and the prosecutor
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: set in court she was spotted laughing with another coworker
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: during the incident, and it was captured on the daycare
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: surveillance video. So you got a glue gun around two
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: hundred degrees and she's burning the children with the glue
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: gun and then laughing, John Limley. A second childre and
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: Learning Place daycare worker has been arrested and charged with
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: a misdemeanor and she's the one accused of just standing
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: back idly during the glucon incident. The prosecutor says in
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: court that both women are seen on video on surveillance
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: video lapping during the incident. Let me understand something right now,
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: John Limley, what is she charged? What's the charges? The
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: charges right now are aggravated battery to a child five felony.
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: So what you're looking at on aggravated battery, Ash Ashley
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: woke out with me. Aggravated assault is when you put
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: someone in fear of serious bodily injury. That's typically alt
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: you shoot them or you stand them. Aggravated battery is
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: when you actually lose the use of say your finger,
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: your hand, your arm, your eye. Aggravated battery is even
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: more serious. What is she looking at? Because they're five
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: counts and five kids obviously looking at a longer sentence.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: I'm a little surprised she wasn't also charged with child endangerment,
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: but you know, I'm glad she's been charged with the
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: aggravated battery. She's looking at a good number of years.
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: You know what's crazy. You know what else is crazy
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: to Dr Daniel Bibra if you look at this woman
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: and those are the ones that are more dangerous, sort
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: of the wolf in sheep's clothing. I guess so because
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: the parents trusted her. Do we know if John Limley
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: if the burn was from the hot metal or the
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: glue itself. I bet the glue that's gotten heated up
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: to about two hundred degrees that seems to be the case.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: And at one point of parents have mentioned that when
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: they went to pick up their child Um, she actually
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: went to the trouble of asking if there had been
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: an incident at home in which there was you know,
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: a burn or something that was happening, sort of trying
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: to place the blame onto the parents and instead of
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: herself trying to get ahead of the game, so to speaking, Well,
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: I can see that happening. You know. The thing about
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: glue that makes it even worse is it continues to
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: burn because you can't get it off. I hear where
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: the defenses going. They're trying to say this happen at home.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: But the likelihood that five children getting hurt from hot
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: glue at home and manifesting and the video manifesting the
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: injury all at the same time, plus the video, it's
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: not gonna work. Okay, we're on it. I want to
• 48:33
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  Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off goodbye for him. M.