Latest / Historic Speeches of the UK House of Commons, Vol. 1 / 014 - Speech on The West Ham Guardians 1927

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014 - Speech on The West Ham Guardians 1927 · Historic Speeches of the UK House of Commons, Vol. 1

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Speech by Susan Lawrence. This is a LibriVox recording. All
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  Speaker 1: LibriVox recordings are in the public domain. For more information
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  Speaker 1: or to volunteer, please visit LibriVox dot org. Recording by
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  Speaker 1: Philippa Jevons, speech given to the House of Commons on
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  Speaker 1: June the twenty seventh, nineteen twenty seven, by Susan Lawrence.
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  Speaker 1: I know a little better now than to appeal to
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  Speaker 1: the Minister of Health on grounds of pity and humanity,
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  Speaker 1: but I feel that we have a right to get
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  Speaker 1: from the Minister the strict observance of the law. The
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  Speaker 1: Minister is very fond of appealing to the law when
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  Speaker 1: boards of Guardians step a little beyond the law, moved
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  Speaker 1: by motives of philanthropy and charity. That is right and
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  Speaker 1: as it should be. But what I have to complain
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  Speaker 1: about is that the Minister encourages the west Ham Board
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  Speaker 1: of Guardians habitually to break the law of England with
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  Speaker 1: regard to outdoor relief. The law is clear and plain.
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  Speaker 1: Fathers and mothers must maintain their children, children must maintain
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  Speaker 1: their parents. But there is no obligation of any kind
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  Speaker 1: upon brothers to maintain brothers, or upon sisters to maintain sisters.
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  Speaker 1: But the whole policy of this board of Guardians is
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  Speaker 1: to attach the earnings of brothers and sisters to keep
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  Speaker 1: other members of the family who are not legally dependent
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  Speaker 1: upon them. If these people knew their job, they could
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  Speaker 1: get out of it. But they trade upon the benevolent
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  Speaker 1: feelings of brothers and sisters and cast the whole care
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  Speaker 1: of maintaining the younger members of the family upon the
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  Speaker 1: sisters and brothers. There are the children of soldiers who
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  Speaker 1: have been killed in the war, to whom the government
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  Speaker 1: have given pensions, and this board of Guardians have thrown
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  Speaker 1: them upon the maintenance of their step brothers, step sisters
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  Speaker 1: and step fathers. When the government were deciding what we
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  Speaker 1: ought to give to the children of men who died
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  Speaker 1: in the service of the country, they considered very carefully
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  Speaker 1: what was the proper sum to give so that these
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  Speaker 1: children could get a proper upbringing. Will give two cases.
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  Speaker 1: Those cases I brought to the notice of the Minister,
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  Speaker 1: and he knows they are perfectly genuine. There were four
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  Speaker 1: children of a soldier who was killed, and the government
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  Speaker 1: gave the children pensions. One of them died, and there
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  Speaker 1: are three of them left. They have in the form
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  Speaker 1: of pensions twenty three shillings and sixpence a week, while
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  Speaker 1: one of them is earning twelve shillings a week. Later,
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  Speaker 1: the mother married and there are two children of the
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  Speaker 1: later marriage. To the father, the mother and the two
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  Speaker 1: younger children, the guardians give eight shillings in kind and
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  Speaker 1: five shillings in money thirteen shillings altogether. The orphans of
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  Speaker 1: the soldier have to maintain their mother, their stepfather, and
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  Speaker 1: the two step children one of the bedrooms they have
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  Speaker 1: sub let for four shillings and sixpence a week. Because
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  Speaker 1: they have so little money for food, and therefore the
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  Speaker 1: soldier's children have nothing like the bedroom space which would
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  Speaker 1: make children happy and healthy. The bedrooms of the soldier's
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  Speaker 1: orphans have been taken away from them in order that
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  Speaker 1: the other members of the family may have enough to eat.
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  Speaker 1: There is another case of a similar kind, where the
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  Speaker 1: three orphans of a soldier have seventeen shillings and sixpence
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  Speaker 1: a week as pensions and earn ten shillings a week.
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  Speaker 1: The mother married and there is another child of the
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  Speaker 1: second marriage. They get four shillings a week in kind
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  Speaker 1: from the guardians and four shillings a week in cash,
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  Speaker 1: and the rent is four shillings and toppence a week.
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  Speaker 1: They let one of the rooms, and again the sleeping
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  Speaker 1: accommodation of a soldier's orphans has been filched from them
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  Speaker 1: because there is no money to feed the rest of
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  Speaker 1: the family. When the country voted all that amount of
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  Speaker 1: taxation in order that soldiers orphans should be properly treated,
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  Speaker 1: it did not mean that they should be all herded
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  Speaker 1: into one room. This is the more wicked on the
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  Speaker 1: part of the minister. Because the members of the former
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  Speaker 1: Board of Guardians faced up to cases of this kind.
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  Speaker 1: In nineteen twenty two, they communicated with the Ministry of Pensions,
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  Speaker 1: and the Minister of Pensions wrote a letter to them
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  Speaker 1: which determined their policy. He said, the pensions for the
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  Speaker 1: children of the soldier should be expended for their sole benefit.
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  Speaker 1: That was not what the Labor Minister said, but what
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  Speaker 1: the Conservative minister said in nineteen twenty two, and that
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  Speaker 1: is the common sense of the matter. This money was
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  Speaker 1: never voted to go in indiscriminate relief to the relations
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  Speaker 1: of soldiers orphans. We voted this money in order that
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  Speaker 1: the children of men who died in the war might
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  Speaker 1: be decently and healthily brought up here in those two cases,
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  Speaker 1: the money is being filched from them and they are
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  Speaker 1: being housed in a way which is not wholesome and decent.
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  Speaker 1: That is what the Minister is doing. I now come
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  Speaker 1: to more general matters. The Minister is very fond of saying,
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  Speaker 1: when certain cases are brought before him that he cannot
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  Speaker 1: interfere with the discretion of the Boards of Guardians. But
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  Speaker 1: we know that the Minister has power to issue general regulations.
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  Speaker 1: The old west Ham Board of guards Audians, when they
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  Speaker 1: had to deal with an old person, gave fifteen shillings
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  Speaker 1: a week. You cannot get a room in west Ham
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  Speaker 1: for less than five shillings or four shillings and sixpence
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  Speaker 1: a week. The new Board of Guardians have cut down
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  Speaker 1: the maximum scale for single persons to eleven shillings a week.
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  Speaker 1: If you have to pay five shillings or four shillings
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  Speaker 1: and sixpence a week for a room, how can you
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  Speaker 1: live and obtain food, firing and clothing and everything else
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  Speaker 1: on the balance of eleven shillings. It is not possible
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  Speaker 1: to do it. I knew some of these cases, and
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  Speaker 1: I know that people are suffering from hunger, and that
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  Speaker 1: in the winter they were suffering from cold as a
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  Speaker 1: direct result of the regulations laid down by the present
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  Speaker 1: Board of Guardians. Sometime or other these people will take
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  Speaker 1: a chill. They will not have the strength to throw
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  Speaker 1: it off, and though the medical certificate will be that
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  Speaker 1: death was caused by pneumonia or bronchitis, the real cause
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  Speaker 1: will be starvation because of regulations carried out under the
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  Speaker 1: auspices of the Minister of Health. I have got here
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  Speaker 1: in my hand the report of the west Ham Union,
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  Speaker 1: which has been printed in His Majesty's stationary office. I
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  Speaker 1: do not know what authority Parliament gives to the Minister
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  Speaker 1: of Health to print the reports of local government authorities.
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  Speaker 1: It is certainly a nice way for the local authorities
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  Speaker 1: to save money. If he would consider extending that to
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  Speaker 1: the poplar Borough Council, it would take a bit off
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  Speaker 1: the poplar rates, and we would feel greatly obliged to him.
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  Speaker 1: They draw the attention of the world in general to
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  Speaker 1: the amount which they have saved in salaries and wages.
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  Speaker 1: They have saved something like fifteen thousand pounds in salaries,
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  Speaker 1: and they have done it partly by making the nurses
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  Speaker 1: work longer hours than any women engaged in nursing ought
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  Speaker 1: to do. When I challenged the Minister about this, the
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  Speaker 1: Minister denied it, and then I put a question to
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  Speaker 1: him and he had to admit that what I said
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  Speaker 1: was true. It is put down also in the report
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  Speaker 1: of the west Ham Board of Guardians. The nurses used
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  Speaker 1: to have at the Central Infirmary, not everywhere, but at
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  Speaker 1: the central Infirmary, where the work is very heavy, they
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  Speaker 1: used to have a forty eight hour week, which meant
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  Speaker 1: that they had a day off to recuperate. The new
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  Speaker 1: Board of Guardians have given the nurses a fifty six
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  Speaker 1: hour week, which means that they do not get a
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  Speaker 1: clear day. The west Ham Board of Guardians did not,
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  Speaker 1: as they ought to have done, give all the nurses
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  Speaker 1: in all their institutions a forty eight hour week. At
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  Speaker 1: whips Cross the nurses have worked more than forty eight
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  Speaker 1: hours a week, but in the Central Infirmary, where the
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  Speaker 1: heavy cases are nursed, they had only a forty eight
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  Speaker 1: hour week. I want the Committee to remember that there
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  Speaker 1: is no such heavy nursing as the nursing in a
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  Speaker 1: workhouse infirmary at west Ham. The nursing is very much
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  Speaker 1: heavier than in London, because in London the poor law
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  Speaker 1: guardians send the very distressful cases to the sick asylums
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  Speaker 1: of the Metropolitan Asylums Board. They do not keep in
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  Speaker 1: the workhouses in London the cancer cases and the cases
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  Speaker 1: of veneer real disease. West Ham does, and in these
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  Speaker 1: extreme cancer cases it is not merely that the patient
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  Speaker 1: is dying from cancer, but very heavy work is demanded
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  Speaker 1: of the nurses. If a person dying from cancer is
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  Speaker 1: of any weight, the nurses have to shift the patient continually,
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  Speaker 1: or the poor wretch is tormented with bedstres as well
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  Speaker 1: as with cancer, so that a nurse who is nursing
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  Speaker 1: a dying cancer case has not merely the ordinary work
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  Speaker 1: of nursing, but a great deal of heavy lifting and moving.
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  Speaker 1: And if that work is not done, the patient suffers
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  Speaker 1: very acutely and painfully. Nurses and sick attendants are only
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  Speaker 1: human beings, and in that atmosphere of death, because there
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  Speaker 1: is nothing so depressing to the mind of a woman
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  Speaker 1: or a man as to be dealing with chronic cases
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  Speaker 1: that cannot recover, that only leave the institution by death,
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  Speaker 1: to be replaced by fresh chronic cases who in three
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  Speaker 1: or four months will die too. There is no work
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  Speaker 1: so dispiriting. And if the nurses do not have a
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  Speaker 1: short working week, they cannot give the care and attention
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  Speaker 1: that they should. They cannot give the patients those little
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  Speaker 1: attentions that are so necessary. They cannot keep up the
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  Speaker 1: sort of atmosphere of hopefulness which it is their duty
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  Speaker 1: to keep up. Of all the things that the Minister
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  Speaker 1: has done, I think one of the most petty one
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  Speaker 1: of the economies, which is most bitter today, is the
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  Speaker 1: lengthening of the working week of the nurses at the
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  Speaker 1: Central Institution from forty eight to fifty six hours. This
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  Speaker 1: is not the first time that the Minister has heard
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  Speaker 1: about it. It is in the report here. It was
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  Speaker 1: put to him in this house. It was put to
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  Speaker 1: him by question and answer. He knows all about it,
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  Speaker 1: and he knows that the unions representing these nurses and
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  Speaker 1: sick attendants came to him and argued the case. They
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  Speaker 1: pointed out that in other boards of Guardians where the
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  Speaker 1: work was not so heavy, in London, boards of Guardians
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  Speaker 1: in Hackney, I think, and some others. Because the nursing
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  Speaker 1: work is by its nature dispiriting and because women cannot
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  Speaker 1: keep up a proper attitude, you'd of mind and a
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  Speaker 1: proper condition of body. In other workhouse infirmaries in London
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  Speaker 1: they have a forty eight hour week. Though they do
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  Speaker 1: not have this number of patients, it is getting very common.
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  Speaker 1: The London County Council nurses have a forty eight hour week.
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  Speaker 1: All good institutions where the work is heavy have a
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  Speaker 1: forty eight hour week, and to reimpose a fifty six
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  Speaker 1: hour week does mean a callousness on the part of
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  Speaker 1: the Minister that I for one cannot understand. The ingenious
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: cruelty of this Board of Guardians is terrible. Let me
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  Speaker 1: take the case of what is done with regards to
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  Speaker 1: dock laborers. A dock laborer, if he is a superior
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  Speaker 1: sort of man, has a tally, and the tally means
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  Speaker 1: that he gets work when work is going, he has
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  Speaker 1: to go to the Employment Exchange twice a day to
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  Speaker 1: sign on. If he does not get work, and he
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  Speaker 1: has to go twice a day to the docks, which
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  Speaker 1: are at the other end of the district to look
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  Speaker 1: for a job. This present Board of Guardians have past
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  Speaker 1: a rule that if a man has a brass tally.
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  Speaker 1: He is only to be relieved as and when relief
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  Speaker 1: is applied for, because they say that if they give
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  Speaker 1: him anything like a regular wage, if they make an
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  Speaker 1: order some day or other, he may slip down to
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  Speaker 1: the docks and get half a day's work and they
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  Speaker 1: will not know about it. I will give particulars a
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  Speaker 1: case which I investigated and which I think has been
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  Speaker 1: to the minister. During six weeks, the man in question,
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: who was getting unemployment benefit, had the following out relief.
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  Speaker 1: One week he had fourteen shillings in kind. The next
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: week he had twenty nine shillings in kind. Then there
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: was a gap, and then he had twenty two shillings
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  Speaker 1: regularly for three weeks. Then on the thirteenth of December
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: he got a day's work and earned nineteen shillings. He
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  Speaker 1: got seven shillings in relief and of course lost his
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: unemployment benefit. Then people say that the poor do not
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  Speaker 1: want to work. This man, by going to the docks
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  Speaker 1: got a day's work and earned nineteen shillings. His relief
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: was cut down to seven shillings and he lost his
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: unemployment benefit. These are the inducements that we have to
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  Speaker 1: give to the poor. This man is lame. He spends
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  Speaker 1: the whole of his time going backwards and forwards, twice
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  Speaker 1: a day to the docks, twice a day to the
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: employment exchange, and round again to the relieving officer. He
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: is a good attender at the docks, and once in
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: about six weeks, with the depression at the docks, and
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: because he is lame, he gets a job and he
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: has to pay fares. He spends the whole of his
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: life crawling around on that unceasing journey up to the
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: employment exchange. Because the Minister will not have an employment
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: exchange at the docks, though we have asked him often enough.
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  Speaker 1: This man goes up to the employment exchange at one
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  Speaker 1: end of east Ham, down to the docks to look
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  Speaker 1: for work, back to the employment exchange to sign on again,
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  Speaker 1: down to the docks, and now without a penny in
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: the cupboard, round to the relieving officer. What makes me
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: more angry even than the suffering of this family is
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: the contempt with which the poor are treated. The Minister
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: of Labor will not have a room at the docks
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: in order to spare this double daily trudge up to
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: the other end of the borough. A man may be
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: a dock laborer and lame at that, what is the
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: good of considering him? Let him walk, Let him spend
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: the whole of his life in that unceasing trudge. That
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: is the sort of life you give the people. And
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: people do not understand the depression, the misery, the unhappiness
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: which settles down upon a family when they have to
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: live in that sort of way. The wife said to
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: me that they cannot bear it. This perpetual walking and
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: no job, with a little crumb thrown by the relieving officer,
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: is breaking the men's hearts, and is breaking the women's
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: hearts too. I say, we ought not to treat the poor,
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  Speaker 1: so despitefully, I cannot help what the west Ham Board
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: of Guardians do but to make some decent arrangement whereby
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: this man is not kept walking round and round with
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: his lame leg in bad weather. Is, I think the
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: very least thing the Guardians ought to do. I want
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  Speaker 1: now to ask the Minister a few questions. The last
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: report of the west Ham Guardians spoke about the wonderful
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: economies they made, and one of the wonderful economies they
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: made was to cut down the loan repayments for the
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: half year from one hundred and twenty seven thousand pounds
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: to fifty eight thousand pounds. The old Board, which was
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: so hardly spoken of, did at any rate pay back
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: its interest and part of the principle which the Minister
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: quite properly accepted. In the last recorded half year. They
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: paid one hundred and twenty seven thousand pounds for interest
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: and part of the principle. The Minister is uncommonly kind
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: to the new Board in the first half year and
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: has let them off the repayment of part of the principle,
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: so that the saving they have made is merely that
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: they are keeping back money that the exchequer ought to have.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: We should all like to make savings of that sort.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: We could all make very large private savings that the
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: expense of the amount the Exchequer is entitled to demand
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: from us. I should like to ask what arrangement is
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: entered into with this Board of Guardians with regard to
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: the repayment of the debt they owe and the amount
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: they are to repay in the future, And whether the
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: arrangements the Minister will no doubt outline are peculiar to
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: this Board of Guardians, or whether he proposes to extend
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: the same kind liberal and generous treatment to the destitute
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: boards of Guardians in the mining and industrial areas. And
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: if not, what justification has he for treating his own
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: children so very much better than his step children the
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: other boards of guardians. It is a lamentable thing that
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: in west Ham alone the infantile mortality figures for this
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: year are so much worse than last. A good many
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: things have been said about Poplar, but Poplar's vital statistics
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: compare extraordinarily favorably with those of west Ham. And it
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: seems to be forgotten that the object for which guardians
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: were instituted was that people who were hungry and unemployed
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: should have some definite standard of living. Judged by any
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: of these humane standards, the west Ham Board of Guardians
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: are in a very inferior position. I should like to
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: make one more general reflection which ought to come home
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: to the Minister of Health, and that is the extraordinary
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: amount of sub letting. East Ham is a horribly crowded place.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: I have known families of six, seven and eight in
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: a room. The place is so crowded that any room
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: can be let almost at once, And where relief has
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: been cut down. The people have very commonly adopted the
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: plan of all huddling together into one room and letting
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: the second bedroom to some lodger in order to bring
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: in a few shillings a week. The Minister and the
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: west Ham Guardians have, to my knowledge, increased the unbearable
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: and indecent crowding in the borough I represent. I have
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: been to the Board of Guardians about a family where
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: the father has consumption, two children have caught it, and
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: the rest are in great danger their living in one room,
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: and if a decent amount of out relief were given
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: they could get another room. There is not enough money
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: to pay for the rent, even in tuberculous cases, to
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: separate the people who are healthy from those who are diseased.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: If you could have the loss of life due to overcrowding,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: the crowding together in some places of tubercular and healthy people,
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: the loss of life due to debility caused by under feeding,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: and the general human misery caused by the operations of
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: the west Ham Board of Guardians. If I had eloquence,
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: I could move the house. But we are not all eloquent,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: and we can only put the plain story before the Minister.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: I am not putting it before him. Really, I do
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: not think it is much use. I am putting it
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: before the House so that what we have to say
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: may be recorded in the official Report, and compassionate people
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: up and down the country may speak not to the
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Minister but to their members of Parliament and ask them
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: to put some form of pressure upon the minister. End
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: of speech.