Latest / New Worlder / Episode #105: Lotta & Per-Anders Jörgensen

Transcript

Episode #105: Lotta & Per-Anders Jörgensen · New Worlder

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This is the New Worlder Podcast and I am one of your hosts,
0:03
Nicholas Gill.
0:05
SPEAKER_03: Co-host Juliana Duque will be joining shortly.
0:08
SPEAKER_03: Today we are speaking with Lotha and Per Anders Jorgensen.
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Lotha is an art director and Per Anders,
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or PA as I have come to call him,
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is a photographer.
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Based in Malmo,
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Sweden,
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they are the founders of the legendary food magazine Full.
0:27
SPEAKER_03: This is a magazine that launched in 2012 and has put out,
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SPEAKER_03: thus far,
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SPEAKER_03: eight issues,
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SPEAKER_03: very sporadically.
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SPEAKER_03: It has been a few years since the last issue,
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SPEAKER_03: but as they reveal in the episode,
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SPEAKER_03: there will eventually be a number nine.
0:44
Aside of its unpredictable publishing schedule,
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Full is a rare kind of magazine.
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In a world where everything moves so fast,
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where writing about food is mostly oriented towards
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Minuscule bits of information on social media that keep coming
1:00
at a rapid pace,
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SPEAKER_03: one after the other.
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SPEAKER_03: Fool is slow.
1:07
SPEAKER_03: It's thoughtful.
1:08
SPEAKER_03: It's reflective.
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Its stories are about interesting humans that work in food and
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their ideas,
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SPEAKER_03: regardless of how well known they are.
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SPEAKER_03: It's creative,
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SPEAKER_03: with beautiful illustrations and photography,
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SPEAKER_03: and stories that have always gone a little bit deeper than anywhere else.
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SPEAKER_03: I had the pleasure of writing a few feature stories there,
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SPEAKER_03: and there was never any indication of what the word count should be.
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SPEAKER_03: Just make it as long as you think it should be, they would say.
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That kind of collaboration is a dream for a writer or
1:40
contributor of any sort.
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SPEAKER_03: When you pick up an issue, you can read it like a book.
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SPEAKER_03: A decade later, the stories remain relevant.
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SPEAKER_03: Lothar and P.A.
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SPEAKER_03: also create books.
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SPEAKER_03: such as the Burnt Ends cookbook, or book, I guess.
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SPEAKER_03: It's not really a cookbook,
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SPEAKER_03: though it kind of is,
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SPEAKER_03: which we talked about with Dave Pint,
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SPEAKER_03: that restaurant chef,
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SPEAKER_03: in the previous episode.
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They've also worked with Andoni Luis Adoretz of Muguretz and
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quite a few other
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SPEAKER_03: truly iconic chefs.
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SPEAKER_03: There is also a documentary series they have created,
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SPEAKER_03: which they will launch soon,
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SPEAKER_03: or at least soonish,
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SPEAKER_03: or when it feels right.
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SPEAKER_03: Anyway,
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SPEAKER_03: their work has always been a big inspiration for me,
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SPEAKER_03: so it was an absolute pleasure to have them on.
2:32
SPEAKER_03: If you haven't subscribed to my newsletter,
2:34
SPEAKER_03: just go to newworlder.com or search for New Worlder on Substack.
2:39
SPEAKER_03: It's free to subscribe.
2:40
SPEAKER_03: The paid subscribers get access to all of the content and back archives.
2:45
SPEAKER_03: Again, that's newworlder.com.
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Also,
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look for my books,
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such as the Latin American Cookbook,
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at small bookstores everywhere.
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SPEAKER_03: Also, check out the New Worlder YouTube channel.
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SPEAKER_03: We have full video episodes there,
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SPEAKER_03: including this one,
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3:10
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3:14
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3:17
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
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SPEAKER_03: Enjoy the show.
4:04
SPEAKER_03: Hey, guys.
4:05
SPEAKER_03: How are you?
4:06
SPEAKER_03: Hi.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: Hi.
4:08
SPEAKER_03: We are fine.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: We're good.
4:10
SPEAKER_01: How are you?
4:11
Well,
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I mean,
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it's hard to say,
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you know,
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with the state of the world at the moment.
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SPEAKER_03: I mean,
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SPEAKER_03: I'm generally fine,
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SPEAKER_03: but every time I look at the news,
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SPEAKER_03: I'm,
4:21
SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: horrified and sad and things.
4:24
SPEAKER_03: But...
4:25
SPEAKER_03: Otherwise, yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: We're the same, of course.
4:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, as long as you don't watch the news, it's okay.
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SPEAKER_02: And by the time this will go on air, everything might have changed.
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SPEAKER_02: For the worse, again.
4:38
SPEAKER_02: It's going from worse to worse, but I don't know.
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I think every morning when I wake up,
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I have a heart attack,
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more or less.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh my God.
4:48
I'm more the angry guy,
4:49
and I feel so sorry for you guys who have to live in it.
4:53
yeah without being able to do much but we're also living in a
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voltage situation
4:58
basically here so yeah well well yeah all right well anyway so
5:03
where are you guys
5:04
at now you're at the at home in the office in yeah we're at the
5:09
office actually
5:10
right now so there might be a the random uh fire truck or
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police car going by and
5:16
SPEAKER_02: that's
5:17
SPEAKER_02: Add to the drama of it.
5:18
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
5:18
SPEAKER_02: That's weird.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: So it's our office in Malmo.
5:21
SPEAKER_01: So it's in the middle of the city center.
5:25
SPEAKER_03: What's Malmo like exactly?
5:27
SPEAKER_03: I've never been.
5:28
I think I took a train from Copenhagen to Stockholm once and I
5:33
think I passed
5:33
SPEAKER_03: through it,
5:34
SPEAKER_03: but it was nighttime and I don't think I saw anything.
5:40
SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, it's by, we call it the Brooklyn of Copenhagen, actually.
5:46
SPEAKER_02: And that is pretty accurate description, I would say.
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It's very much like Copenhagen,
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but it's in Sweden,
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obviously,
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and it's a bit cheaper.
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SPEAKER_02: It's a bit more affordable in every way.
5:56
SPEAKER_02: And moths.
5:58
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
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SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
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SPEAKER_02: there's some good stuff,
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SPEAKER_02: but it's not as evident as in Copenhagen,
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SPEAKER_02: where everything is becoming almost a little bit too polished right now.
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SPEAKER_02: Very hipsterified in a way.
6:09
SPEAKER_02: Malmö has still got this touch of reality to it, which is great.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: It's a small city.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, 300,000 people about live, I think.
6:17
But we have loads of nationalities,
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around 170 different nationalities here in Malmö.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: It's a port to Sweden.
6:27
SPEAKER_03: So I have to tell you, I was thinking about this the other day.
6:30
SPEAKER_03: I have to tell you about my first experience with Full Magazine.
6:33
SPEAKER_03: As I say it,
6:35
SPEAKER_03: and as I was thinking about it,
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it sounds like the most ridiculously cliche Nordic food fantasy
6:42
like you could ever imagine,
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SPEAKER_03: but it's truly how it actually went.
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SPEAKER_03: So I was in Stockholm and I was writing,
6:48
SPEAKER_03: I think,
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SPEAKER_03: a story on like real estate for the New York Times or something.
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SPEAKER_03: And
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SPEAKER_03: Another story on a restaurant for Penthouse, if you can believe that.
6:58
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
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Yeah,
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I don't even want to get into it at this point,
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but yeah,
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Penthouse.
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SPEAKER_03: And I was hanging out with Nicholas Ekstad at,
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SPEAKER_03: like I went to dinner at his place,
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SPEAKER_03: and he mentioned that this Swedish food magazine just came out,
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SPEAKER_03: and he had some extra copies,
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SPEAKER_03: and he gave me one.
7:17
SPEAKER_03: And
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I think like the magazine just came out like within a few
7:22
months or something like that.
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And the next morning I took a train north to Faviken and it was
7:27
the middle of winter,
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SPEAKER_03: early December,
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SPEAKER_03: maybe everything was covered in snow.
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SPEAKER_03: And it was this long, beautiful train ride.
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SPEAKER_03: What is it?
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SPEAKER_03: Like eight hours or something like that between.
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SPEAKER_03: And, and I read the entire issue and I felt like such a relief because I,
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SPEAKER_03: The entire world as I had known it,
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SPEAKER_03: I'd been writing about food at that point for more than 10 years,
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SPEAKER_03: 12,
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SPEAKER_03: 13 years,
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SPEAKER_03: I guess.
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And the entire world of food media was moving in this direction
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of everything
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SPEAKER_03: faster and all this shorter writing,
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SPEAKER_03: all these little bits of information.
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SPEAKER_03: And as a writer, that frightened me because I had always felt...
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SPEAKER_03: much more comfortable with the very long story,
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SPEAKER_03: the 7,000 word stories,
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SPEAKER_03: more so than the 300,
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SPEAKER_03: 600 word bites of crap.
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SPEAKER_03: And I was concerned by that.
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SPEAKER_03: And then here was this magazine in Sweden,
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SPEAKER_03: of all places,
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SPEAKER_03: that was completely the opposite of that,
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SPEAKER_03: where you had these very long profiles and stories.
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SPEAKER_03: You had all these
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thoughtful writing on different food topics that I definitely
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wasn't seeing
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anywhere in the U S and it was creative and fun and serious at
8:46
the same time.
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SPEAKER_03: And the photography was,
8:49
SPEAKER_03: was very personal,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: it is very much,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: PA's world of photography and,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: which is,
8:57
SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: is distinct and amazing.
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SPEAKER_03: And I felt like there wasn't anything else like that.
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SPEAKER_03: at least that I had known.
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SPEAKER_03: And I felt like, okay, there's still a place for me in this world.
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SPEAKER_03: And,
9:11
SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: over the years I was fortunate to write a few,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: stories with you guys and,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: I'm still very like grateful for that.
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SPEAKER_03: And so first I want to say, you know, like, thank you for that.
9:24
Of course,
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like it's,
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it's been a dream to work with you guys a few times.
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SPEAKER_03: And second,
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SPEAKER_03: When the fuck is the next issue coming out?
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SPEAKER_03: Because I don't know what to do with myself anymore.
9:34
I think we have to go back to where you started on that train
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going back in the days.
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SPEAKER_02: I mean,
9:43
because for people who don't really know about us and why we
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started this foolish
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SPEAKER_02: thing called Fool Magazine,
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SPEAKER_02: it is...
9:55
SPEAKER_02: You actually spot on on everything was good.
9:58
We were also missing this kind of serious,
10:02
but not that serious magazine on gastronomy and food.
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SPEAKER_02: And in a wider sense as well, profiling people.
10:11
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we really were interested in ourselves.
10:14
SPEAKER_02: And as a counter reaction to this shorter and shorter process,
10:18
stories and the less and less space you could get so it's like
10:21
oh what the fuck
10:22
let's just do whatever we like we try and do one issue and then
10:26
yeah yeah but it
10:28
was actually it started 2004 that was the year when we
10:33
registered full.sm but we
10:36
didn't do it we didn't have the time we didn't have the money
10:39
so but the idea was
10:41
SPEAKER_01: there
10:42
SPEAKER_02: We were super slow, mostly, unfortunately.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: That we really wanted to do a magazine with a lot of text.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: And we wanted to do a magazine without recipes, focusing on people.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: So our, I mean... But I have to interrupt you.
10:57
SPEAKER_02: Like we always say, people say like, oh, why don't you have any recipes?
11:00
SPEAKER_02: Blah, blah, blah, blah.
11:01
SPEAKER_02: It's like, okay, guys, do you buy Vogue to get a sewing pattern?
11:05
SPEAKER_02: No, you don't.
11:06
SPEAKER_02: You buy Vogue or, well, Penthouse, I guess, for your text.
11:10
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
11:13
SPEAKER_02: But I mean, you buy it for inspiration.
11:15
SPEAKER_02: You want to be inspired.
11:16
SPEAKER_02: And we wanted to inspire people.
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people basically we wanted to to turn on their minds and their
11:21
i mean everything
11:22
there's some senses so at that time our inspiration was was
11:26
vogue magazine life new
11:28
yorker so that was our i mean what we wanted to read and what
11:34
it or just live
11:35
SPEAKER_01: through
11:36
SPEAKER_01: And then in 2010, we actually made a decision.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: Let's do it.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: So we did.
11:44
SPEAKER_02: And back in those days, we had ads.
11:46
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we had ads up until the two latest issues.
11:50
SPEAKER_02: We have had ads.
11:51
But dealing with ads and ad people,
11:53
it's not really our thing,
11:55
to be honest.
11:56
And we wanted rather invest a little bit more money,
11:59
get some sponsors who we had.
12:01
SPEAKER_02: And I mean, to create something that is much more like...
12:05
SPEAKER_02: like a book or a periodical or something that lasts.
12:07
SPEAKER_02: And also the printing quality, we made even better printing quality.
12:12
SPEAKER_02: And I mean,
12:12
SPEAKER_02: the one we worked together on,
12:14
SPEAKER_02: like Osvaldo in Mexico City,
12:17
SPEAKER_02: for instance,
12:18
that was the first one we did with the new printing house and
12:21
this quality.
12:22
SPEAKER_02: No ads.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: No,
12:24
SPEAKER_01: but the ad thing,
12:25
that's quite interesting if you're interested in magazines and
12:28
magazine making in a way,
12:30
SPEAKER_01: because,
12:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
12:31
SPEAKER_01: being based in Sweden,
12:33
SPEAKER_01: and not being part of any big publishing house,
12:36
SPEAKER_01: it's extremely difficult to have ads,
12:39
SPEAKER_01: to sell ads.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: Quality ads, yeah.
12:41
SPEAKER_01: No, because, yes, absolutely, quality ads.
12:45
But this is because most companies,
12:48
they have regions where they sell ads.
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SPEAKER_01: So it's Scandinavia, it's the US.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: And we couldn't really, we didn't fit.
12:56
SPEAKER_03: No, because it was never really like,
13:00
SPEAKER_03: a Nordic region magazine, right?
13:01
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
13:02
SPEAKER_03: it was a pretty global,
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like even though it gets kind of lumped in with that just
13:06
because of the time and
13:07
SPEAKER_03: some of the like stories,
13:09
SPEAKER_03: but it was never bad.
13:11
SPEAKER_03: It was very global.
13:13
But also our whole idea was that,
13:15
I mean,
13:15
you almost like a Trojan horse in a way.
13:19
SPEAKER_02: You could buy it because, oh, nice photography, nice this, blah, blah.
13:23
SPEAKER_02: But then we wanted people like you.
13:25
We had these,
13:26
I mean,
13:26
letters from or mails from readers who told us,
13:29
well,
13:29
I bought this.
13:30
I was on a transatlantic flight and I started reading and I
13:34
couldn't put it down.
13:35
SPEAKER_02: And then all of a sudden I was like in New York and I know what happened.
13:38
SPEAKER_02: I read it from cover to cover.
13:40
SPEAKER_02: And those kind of stories,
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SPEAKER_02: they are really amazing because we pay a lot of attention to the words,
13:46
SPEAKER_02: to the text.
13:47
SPEAKER_02: It can be long.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: It has to be some kind of substance.
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I mean,
13:51
that's why it's a bit like a Trojan horse or a nice coffee
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table look.
13:55
SPEAKER_02: And still, it should speak to you in a way.
13:57
SPEAKER_02: And yeah.
13:59
SPEAKER_02: enrich your life a little bit.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: But the most important thing for us then,
14:03
SPEAKER_01: and also,
14:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
14:04
SPEAKER_01: still is,
14:05
SPEAKER_01: is that to do stories that we are interested in.
14:08
Do stories on people that we really would like to know more
14:12
about or people that we
14:14
know something about already that we would like just to dive
14:17
into them and do something.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: And hopefully do something much deeper than just walking,
14:23
SPEAKER_02: being invited to a place,
14:25
SPEAKER_02: let's walk in or whatever.
14:26
to another journalist and leave the next day much rather come
14:32
one time or hopefully
14:33
well incognito or a bit like under the radar and try it out if
14:37
you're a bit not
14:38
sure see if it's interesting or not and then if it is good it's
14:42
usually we our
14:43
senses are pretty i'm into fine-tuned so we it is good and then
14:47
we come back
14:48
SPEAKER_02: And then we spend time.
14:50
SPEAKER_02: We try to spend time.
14:51
SPEAKER_02: And the latest one, yeah, we're not evading your question, by the way.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: We will arrive there.
14:57
SPEAKER_02: It was the longest detour ever.
14:59
SPEAKER_02: No, but I mean, for Japan, it was incredible.
15:01
We had to maybe visit some restaurants once just to see us and
15:06
then come back a second time.
15:08
SPEAKER_02: And then at the end of the meal,
15:10
maybe suggest that we would like to maybe come along if it's
15:13
maybe possible.
15:14
SPEAKER_02: Maybe, maybe, maybe.
15:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, in a very humble way.
15:20
SPEAKER_02: It's Japan.
15:22
SPEAKER_02: And then the chef might ask you, so who else is in this Japanese issue?
15:27
SPEAKER_02: And then you tell the names and he says, no, no, no, no, I can't do it.
15:31
SPEAKER_02: I'm not worthy.
15:32
SPEAKER_02: I'm not worthy to be among those people.
15:35
And then you have to have some of the other chefs call him up
15:37
and say like,
15:38
SPEAKER_02: hey guys,
15:39
SPEAKER_02: would you mind,
15:40
SPEAKER_02: not guys,
15:41
SPEAKER_02: I would say,
15:42
SPEAKER_02: sir,
15:42
would you mind being in this magazine because we think it would
15:45
be interesting.
15:46
SPEAKER_02: And then you get an okay eventually.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: And then it all ends with a hot, a big hot afterwards.
15:52
SPEAKER_02: There are different struggles.
15:55
SPEAKER_02: I mean, mostly people don't turn us down.
15:58
SPEAKER_02: It happened a couple of times, actually, but it's not very often.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: Really?
16:03
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
16:04
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I can't answer.
16:07
SPEAKER_02: You can, sir.
16:07
SPEAKER_02: You can.
16:08
SPEAKER_02: No, because he wasn't ready.
16:10
SPEAKER_02: He wasn't ready.
16:12
SPEAKER_02: I will tell you.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
16:13
SPEAKER_02: Okay, okay, okay.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: But now he's ready.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: He's overripe like us.
16:18
SPEAKER_02: Anyways, yeah.
16:20
SPEAKER_02: So for your question about, sorry.
16:22
SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: Come on, sorry.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: No, the next issue.
16:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, next issue.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: So Lotta, why are we not producing an issue every year?
16:31
SPEAKER_01: Because we have just too much on our plates, so to speak.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: But, I mean, we have actually made two stories for next issue.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: But we need to update.
16:44
SPEAKER_02: One restaurant has closed since.
16:46
SPEAKER_01: I can't believe it is.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: But it's actually a good story, still.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: But we need to update it a little bit, all of them, and
16:57
SPEAKER_01: It will be a next issue.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: We don't have a date for it.
17:01
But I don't know if I can call it an issue any longer since
17:04
it's more or less like a book now.
17:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like it's a more periodical period.
17:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
17:12
SPEAKER_02: No, I mean, it's great.
17:14
SPEAKER_02: But I mean, to be honest, we would love to focus on this.
17:17
SPEAKER_02: If I had unlimited funds,
17:20
SPEAKER_02: I would love to focus on this and do it,
17:22
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
17:23
SPEAKER_02: once every year or whatever when we feel we're ready.
17:25
at the same time you don't really tell a writer like oh you
17:28
have to produce your
17:30
work like every every year you have to do like two books or
17:33
whatever so it's it's i
17:35
mean yeah time is also time is a factor because we like to
17:40
spend time yeah we like
17:43
to kind of let the subjects marinate in a way because the next
17:47
one is going to be
17:48
SPEAKER_02: about future the future basically okay and
17:52
SPEAKER_02: But it's changing so rapidly now, in a way.
17:53
SPEAKER_02: And so I get almost dizzy from day to day.
17:56
SPEAKER_02: So how do we know?
17:57
SPEAKER_02: I mean, all we can do, basically, is do snapshots of time, in a way.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:04
SPEAKER_02: And try to distill what we think.
18:06
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
18:07
SPEAKER_02: because during the pandemic,
18:08
SPEAKER_02: after the pandemic,
18:09
SPEAKER_02: we had so many thoughts,
18:11
SPEAKER_02: all of us,
18:11
SPEAKER_02: I guess,
18:12
SPEAKER_02: about which way the world,
18:14
SPEAKER_02: especially the gastronomic world,
18:17
SPEAKER_02: would go.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: take.
18:19
SPEAKER_02: But I mean,
18:19
SPEAKER_02: I felt like,
18:21
SPEAKER_02: no,
18:21
SPEAKER_02: that would definitely be less of this influencer thing,
18:24
SPEAKER_02: blah,
18:24
SPEAKER_02: blah,
18:24
SPEAKER_02: and all this.
18:26
SPEAKER_02: Total opposite.
18:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like it went basically right back to how it was.
18:31
SPEAKER_01: Even worse.
18:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
18:33
SPEAKER_03: Or, yeah, even worse, like it just accelerated.
18:36
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
18:37
SPEAKER_01: But it's kind of interesting.
18:38
I spoke to a chef,
18:39
Will Goldfarb,
18:41
last week because we're speaking about a project.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: And then I said,
18:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm surprised that it didn't happen earlier,
18:49
SPEAKER_01: something new in the gastronomic world.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: And he said, oh, it was the same after 9-11.
18:56
SPEAKER_01: It took two years before anything happened.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: And now I think it is actually happening.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: So many restaurants are closing.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: So many new ones are opening.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: And it's in a different way.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: The fine dining scene is still around, but it's different.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: It's just different.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: Speaking about Noma and other places.
19:20
SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, what is going on?
19:22
SPEAKER_01: It's just something is happening now, I think.
19:26
two years yeah but before talking about fine dining i had a
19:30
question about that why
19:32
why food to start with if there was a personal reason for you
19:36
to focus on this or
19:38
you were more tuning in what was happening culturally and how
19:42
this expression was
19:44
like opening up new languages for people to connect and all
19:49
these things we know
19:50
SPEAKER_01: about food but i i am curious about what what was that first
19:55
question you had around food and if that question over the
19:59
years has changed?
20:01
SPEAKER_01: It's a very good question.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: It's basically my fault because PA and I, we weren't together before.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: And I mean,
20:09
I lived in Stockholm and I was not a director for a food
20:12
magazine called Gourmet,
20:14
SPEAKER_01: nothing to do with American Gourmet.
20:16
And so we met through that magazine because I asked PA to take
20:24
some photographs very early on.
20:26
SPEAKER_02: And back then I didn't shoot any food at all.
20:30
SPEAKER_02: Even as a child, I loved to eat, of course.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: Because we were a team...
20:35
SPEAKER_01: new team for that magazine.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: They wanted to revamp it a little bit.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: So,
20:40
SPEAKER_01: uh,
20:41
SPEAKER_01: I,
20:42
SPEAKER_01: when I started work as an art director for that magazine,
20:45
I wanted to work for the photographers that didn't necessarily
20:48
shoot food.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: So I just wanted to do something else.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: And this is late nineties.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: So it's 90, what is it?
20:58
SPEAKER_01: Two, three.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: I can't even remember what year, but it's something like that.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, that's how it happened.
21:10
SPEAKER_01: So when we finally met,
21:12
SPEAKER_01: kind of,
21:13
SPEAKER_01: and became a couple,
21:14
SPEAKER_01: we started to speak about...
21:15
SPEAKER_00: It also took a few years.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: Everything takes time here.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: So we started to speak about maybe we should do a magazine.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: It would be so much fun.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: Let's do it without recipes and do focus on people, blah, blah, blah.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: And you've always been very interested in food.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: never been interested in food, really.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: I've just been interested in doing magazines.
21:38
SPEAKER_01: But now, well, food is part of our world.
21:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:43
SPEAKER_02: But, yeah.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: So that's how it happened.
21:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's how it happened.
21:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:48
SPEAKER_02: It's a very selfish project,
21:50
SPEAKER_02: in a way,
21:50
SPEAKER_02: because we tell,
21:52
SPEAKER_02: but it's like,
21:52
SPEAKER_02: as a photographer,
21:54
SPEAKER_02: to do a great story on somebody,
21:56
SPEAKER_02: you almost have to fall in love with them in a way.
21:57
SPEAKER_02: You have to care.
21:59
SPEAKER_02: You have to really invest yourself and your feelings and everything.
22:03
And then hopefully your image has become a little bit better
22:06
and less superficial.
22:07
And I feel the same way about it's hard to feature or do
22:13
stories on people you
22:14
SPEAKER_02: don't love or admire in a way.
22:16
SPEAKER_02: I can say with you guys,
22:17
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
22:19
SPEAKER_02: of course we do stories just to tell other people about something.
22:22
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
22:23
SPEAKER_02: we do commercial work as well,
22:24
SPEAKER_02: but we try always to work with,
22:26
SPEAKER_02: I always say,
22:27
SPEAKER_02: I always want to work with nice people.
22:30
SPEAKER_02: If people are not nice, it's almost the most important thing.
22:36
SPEAKER_02: But then you learn something yourself as well, about yourself.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: But I also think at that time,
22:41
SPEAKER_01: when we started to think about fool,
22:43
SPEAKER_01: also,
22:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
22:44
SPEAKER_01: playing around with the food and fool as a name,
22:47
SPEAKER_01: because we felt that...
22:51
SPEAKER_01: Being,
22:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
22:52
SPEAKER_01: to be someone in the food world,
22:55
SPEAKER_01: in the restaurant world,
22:56
SPEAKER_01: you have to be a little bit crazy.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, you can't do it.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: You just can't do it.
23:01
SPEAKER_01: So that's why we made up this name.
23:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: And also, I mean...
23:11
SPEAKER_01: There weren't any magazines around like that.
23:13
SPEAKER_03: No, no.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: And we felt that something was missing.
23:17
I mean,
23:18
sometimes I said to Pierre,
23:19
let's do a magazine about football instead,
23:22
soccer.
23:23
But just because we need to focus on people to do something
23:27
good with people.
23:29
SPEAKER_01: But food is more emotional than football, I think.
23:32
SPEAKER_02: No, no, it's not.
23:34
SPEAKER_02: Well, no, you need to eat every day to survive.
23:37
SPEAKER_02: You don't need it.
23:38
football game a day to survive though i really i'm
23:40
participating on tv but now but
23:45
it's pretty it is it is interesting this yeah how it all starts
23:50
and the development
23:51
and i mean we always have one i mean there are a lot of food
23:56
magazines out there we
23:57
get a lot of them today i don't want to be critical but
24:01
sometimes i feel like the
24:02
SPEAKER_02: words are missing i'm glad you say that because
24:06
SPEAKER_03: I totally agree.
24:07
SPEAKER_03: Like there's lots of beautiful food magazines.
24:11
And like I've seen a few good ones from Latin America lately
24:14
that I'm really happy about.
24:16
SPEAKER_03: But in general, most of them, they look beautiful.
24:20
SPEAKER_03: You put them on your coffee table and they look nice and they look cool.
24:23
SPEAKER_03: But then you open them up and it's just like soulless.
24:27
SPEAKER_03: Like the story, the writing is not there.
24:30
SPEAKER_03: The design is usually pretty good, but you never pick it up again.
24:36
SPEAKER_03: You never read it.
24:37
SPEAKER_03: You never sit on an eight-hour train ride and read the whole issue.
24:41
SPEAKER_02: True.
24:42
SPEAKER_02: That's why also we try to really work with extremely good writers,
24:46
SPEAKER_02: illustrators and artists for the area in full.
24:50
SPEAKER_02: But also to us,
24:51
SPEAKER_02: it's important to,
24:53
SPEAKER_02: I once said,
24:53
we almost should have support from the EU because we try to do
24:56
something like to
24:58
SPEAKER_02: actually break the language barriers in a way,
25:02
because we want to bring in writers who write in Spanish and we
25:06
get it translated French.
25:09
SPEAKER_02: Portuguese, Japanese, which is really helped to translate, by the way.
25:14
German,
25:15
which is not so hard,
25:16
but it always becomes much longer,
25:18
the texts.
25:19
SPEAKER_02: But it's an interesting way to
25:22
get i mean another view on the culture across yeah because i
25:27
mean the spanish view
25:28
you guys you you understand you speak spanish i mean we don't
25:32
really so but having
25:33
this cultural another cultural standpoint viewpoint in a way
25:37
it's very important
25:38
SPEAKER_02: try to bring that out to others is so important i mean even
25:44
I mean,
25:44
when did you last read like Francois Simon,
25:47
the French super critic?
25:50
SPEAKER_02: When did you read him in English the last time?
25:53
SPEAKER_02: Does it even work?
25:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we asked him to write the piece and he did.
25:57
SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
25:57
SPEAKER_02: Very, very good.
25:58
I was super scared of calling him,
25:59
by the way,
26:00
or actually writing to him.
26:01
SPEAKER_02: But I mean, it is interesting, this cultural context, I think.
26:05
SPEAKER_03: There's so few places to...
26:10
SPEAKER_03: to actually do this work, to do artful work about food.
26:15
SPEAKER_03: Like it just becomes,
26:16
SPEAKER_03: it's so like all the magazines in the US,
26:19
SPEAKER_03: all the big magazines,
26:20
SPEAKER_03: it's just so transactional.
26:22
SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
26:23
It's just,
26:24
you know,
26:24
this is the chef,
26:25
this is the restaurant and blah,
26:27
blah,
26:28
blah.
26:28
SPEAKER_03: Like there's never the deep stories.
26:29
SPEAKER_03: It's like,
26:30
SPEAKER_03: I was just looking at full number one and you know,
26:33
SPEAKER_03: there's this in-depth story about the duck farmer,
26:36
SPEAKER_03: like Peter,
26:37
SPEAKER_03: the duck farmer.
26:38
SPEAKER_03: And it's like,
26:39
Have I ever seen a story about a duck farmer,
26:42
just this weird reclusive duck farmer in the US?
26:45
SPEAKER_03: No.
26:45
SPEAKER_03: And I never probably ever will, which is sad, you know?
26:50
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
26:51
SPEAKER_02: But also to be honest, I love New York Times.
26:55
SPEAKER_02: I read it a lot online and everything.
26:58
SPEAKER_02: At times I feel they don't really trust their senses,
27:02
SPEAKER_02: especially in the style issues and everything.
27:05
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what to call it.
27:06
SPEAKER_02: It was more, I mean,
27:09
SPEAKER_02: supposed to be modern anyway or contemporary,
27:11
SPEAKER_02: I always feel,
27:12
SPEAKER_02: this is very honest,
27:13
SPEAKER_02: not too honest maybe,
27:14
SPEAKER_02: that they always,
27:16
SPEAKER_02: like many others,
27:16
SPEAKER_02: they always have to have some kind of certification that this guy,
27:20
SPEAKER_02: she's okay.
27:22
SPEAKER_02: She's really cool.
27:24
SPEAKER_02: If we feature her, we're not going to look like fools.
27:27
SPEAKER_02: Whereas we don't give a shit.
27:29
SPEAKER_02: I'm happy to do that.
27:31
Anybody we like or we think has a message to somebody else or
27:36
has something to tell you guys.
27:38
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and it doesn't have to be a perfect message.
27:40
It doesn't have to be this boxed-in view that's acceptable on
27:45
Twitter or whatever
27:46
SPEAKER_03: it's called now.
27:48
SPEAKER_03: And it's like I feel like in the U.S.
27:50
SPEAKER_03: we get kind of boxed into that.
27:52
SPEAKER_03: Nothing can vary from the one polarized view or the other.
27:57
SPEAKER_03: And it's just there's no in-between.
27:59
SPEAKER_03: There's no...
28:01
There's no just story just to tell a story and just to see how
28:05
this person is and
28:06
SPEAKER_03: all their flaws.
28:08
SPEAKER_03: And I miss that.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: But still one of my favorite stories from New Yorker is on David Chang.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
28:17
SPEAKER_01: It was a long, long time ago.
28:19
SPEAKER_01: It was so good.
28:21
SPEAKER_01: I've reread it from time to time.
28:23
It's just a really,
28:25
really good story when he was young,
28:27
just doing this in the world.
28:29
SPEAKER_01: I mean, just perfect.
28:30
SPEAKER_02: But that's also the question.
28:31
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's why I loved, I still love,
28:34
working with chefs and restaurants and these kind of people
28:37
that are around here in
28:39
this industry because we have access still we have kind of we
28:43
are unlimited access
28:44
whereas you if i would do photos of an actor an actress or
28:48
whatever there are so
28:50
many layers of so many people gatekeepers because this is very
28:55
direct still you can
28:56
SPEAKER_02: actually like we can call somebody up and say well mostly i'm
29:00
SPEAKER_02: They don't have PRs and stuff.
29:02
SPEAKER_02: If they have a PR, we speak to them directly because we want the honesty.
29:05
SPEAKER_02: It's like, would you like to do this?
29:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:08
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
29:09
SPEAKER_02: even when we did Butura,
29:10
SPEAKER_02: for instance,
29:11
SPEAKER_02: doing this Fellini homage for Fool,
29:13
SPEAKER_02: that was really funny to do that.
29:17
SPEAKER_02: It was dealing straight with him and Lara, his wife.
29:21
SPEAKER_02: That's the way to do it.
29:22
Yeah,
29:22
I mean,
29:23
you couldn't set that up with a PR agency and have the PR
29:26
agency explain to
29:28
to massimo like what you wanted to do and what this idea was
29:31
like could you imagine
29:33
like that would have been weird and also sometimes when i what
29:37
i really like is the
29:38
discovery because we are on a kind of this journey together us
29:42
and the subject yeah
29:43
it's like for fuck's sake we have to have time to sit down and
29:45
have a coffee not
29:46
always this because you know in many countries they ask would
29:49
like to have a coffee
29:50
and i always say yes of course i want a coffee i always want a
29:53
coffee and i really
29:54
SPEAKER_02: want to sit down and spend time with
29:57
SPEAKER_02: Okay, I can be rushed as well, I can do that, but I want to spend time.
30:02
SPEAKER_02: It's also out of some kind of courtesy to the person.
30:06
SPEAKER_02: I want to understand.
30:09
SPEAKER_01: I wonder if you struggle with...
30:13
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
30:13
SPEAKER_01: given that this is focused on personalities,
30:17
SPEAKER_01: people with,
30:18
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:19
SPEAKER_01: a lot of self energy,
30:22
SPEAKER_01: and they are very usually very confident and a life force.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: But in the end, food is communal.
30:31
SPEAKER_01: The message, it goes beyond the person.
30:33
And,
30:36
you know,
30:36
in the end,
30:37
it's about what this person or his,
30:40
her team are giving to the world.
30:43
How do you balance that when you craft the story so that the
30:49
weight is not...
30:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking about the reader that sees,
30:53
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:53
SPEAKER_01: so much weight in these celebrities because they are right now.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: So that the message is in the end beyond,
31:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:03
SPEAKER_01: beyond that,
31:04
SPEAKER_01: beyond that specific individual world.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: But this, I mean, we have a very good example.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we have the same one.
31:11
But we have a very good example of that because,
31:13
I mean,
31:14
it's something that evolves.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: We did a story on Bar Tartin.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: And we went there.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: We spent some time with them.
31:22
And then we realized that these people at the restaurant,
31:25
they are so important.
31:27
SPEAKER_01: And they are from everywhere.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: So we did portraits of all of them.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: working there, and just short stories about them, where they came from.
31:37
SPEAKER_01: We couldn't do that today.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: They would be arrested.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: But where they came from and what they did,
31:42
SPEAKER_01: and for a long time they've been working there and stuff like that.
31:47
SPEAKER_02: But this was a microcosm of a restaurant in California in the U.S.
31:51
SPEAKER_02: I mean, all these people, like melting pots coming together.
31:55
SPEAKER_02: So we were standing at Lotta and I, and basically I said,
31:58
i can't shoot this this way we figure out we have to do it
32:01
another way and we make
32:02
this split second decisions on like we had to basically if you
32:06
would do it for
32:07
another major magazine back in days you would have a shooting
32:10
schedule you have to
32:10
go like every single i could tick all the boxes but we don't
32:15
then we fight
32:16
sometimes and i say like that's like no i can't do it i won't
32:18
do it this way we
32:19
have to do something else yeah so we put up a black backdrop
32:22
and we shot the all
32:24
SPEAKER_02: these people yeah because it fit the story so well
32:28
And I mean,
32:29
also,
32:29
it is,
32:31
that was,
32:31
I mean,
32:32
Nick and Courtney's restaurant,
32:35
of course.
32:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:36
And so they were in the picture,
32:37
but they were just as much worth as the others.
32:40
Maybe they were featured on three pictures and all the other
32:42
guys who were on a full.
32:44
SPEAKER_02: And also, I mean, how many pages?
32:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:47
SPEAKER_02: How many pages does this story need?
32:48
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's how we work.
32:51
SPEAKER_02: Is it 12, 16, 20?
32:52
SPEAKER_02: Let's do 20 because the material, we have enough material.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: So that's why,
32:57
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
32:58
SPEAKER_01: how it evolves,
32:59
because sometimes we need to just feel that we need to include
33:03
everybody or we just
33:04
SPEAKER_01: need to do it in different ways.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: We did that in Thailand too.
33:07
SPEAKER_02: Yes, with David Thompson back in the days as well.
33:09
SPEAKER_02: But that's interesting.
33:10
When you can look at pictures of some of the guys there,
33:13
some have moved on now.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: They are celebrity chefs.
33:17
SPEAKER_02: I hate that word, but no, they are famous, very interesting chefs.
33:21
SPEAKER_02: And now it's almost time to feature him.
33:24
SPEAKER_02: He will be featured.
33:25
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
33:26
SPEAKER_02: So it is very interesting.
33:28
But also because we were there so early,
33:30
we shot him,
33:31
we spent time back then.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: He trusts us.
33:35
SPEAKER_02: He totally trusts us.
33:36
SPEAKER_02: Because trust is so important as well in everything,
33:40
SPEAKER_02: I think,
33:40
SPEAKER_02: especially because they have to trust us.
33:42
SPEAKER_02: Because Lotte always says,
33:44
SPEAKER_02: when it's my photographer,
33:45
SPEAKER_02: she says,
33:46
SPEAKER_02: oh,
33:46
SPEAKER_02: now you're pushing everybody too hard again.
33:49
SPEAKER_02: Because I don't think, I'm so instinctive.
33:51
SPEAKER_02: I just want to, well, create something.
33:54
SPEAKER_02: And she's like, oh, I don't know, you're wearing everybody out.
33:57
SPEAKER_02: You're crazy.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: That is not true.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: That is not true.
34:00
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
34:00
SPEAKER_01: It's not true.
34:01
SPEAKER_03: A little bit.
34:03
SPEAKER_03: That's the way I like to work too.
34:05
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
34:05
SPEAKER_03: I like to gain the trust and like,
34:08
I feel like when I have the opportunity to tell a real story
34:11
and it's like,
34:15
SPEAKER_03: I need to spend that time and I need to,
34:18
SPEAKER_03: and for me it's different because it's less about,
34:20
SPEAKER_03: I can't really direct them,
34:22
SPEAKER_03: you know,
34:22
SPEAKER_03: in the story,
34:24
SPEAKER_03: but I have to be there.
34:27
And they have to trust me enough to let the story happen is how
34:32
I've always felt it.
34:33
SPEAKER_03: And the best thing I can do is just blend into the background.
34:39
SPEAKER_03: And my best stories have been that,
34:41
SPEAKER_03: have just been me in the background listening,
34:46
SPEAKER_03: but not them necessarily forgetting I'm there,
34:49
SPEAKER_03: but trusting me with the information that they're presenting and just...
34:56
SPEAKER_03: letting me do what I want with it.
34:58
SPEAKER_03: And I think it's,
35:01
SPEAKER_03: it's,
35:01
SPEAKER_03: it's taken,
35:02
SPEAKER_03: it probably took a few stories to,
35:04
SPEAKER_03: to get there for them to kind of understand who I am and,
35:07
SPEAKER_03: and,
35:08
SPEAKER_03: and something like that.
35:09
SPEAKER_03: But,
35:11
SPEAKER_03: but yeah,
35:11
SPEAKER_03: and it's like,
35:12
SPEAKER_03: I don't work with the,
35:14
SPEAKER_03: well,
35:14
SPEAKER_03: with the,
35:15
SPEAKER_03: you know,
35:15
SPEAKER_03: drop in with a bunch of journalists and,
35:18
SPEAKER_03: you know,
35:18
you eat a meal and then talk with the chef and everybody gets
35:21
drunk afterwards.
35:22
SPEAKER_03: And like, I don't know what to do with that.
35:24
SPEAKER_03: Like I've never, I never did.
35:26
SPEAKER_03: And I don't know.
35:30
That's,
35:31
that's again,
35:31
that's,
35:32
that's the,
35:33
uh,
35:34
again,
35:34
it's very transactional.
35:36
SPEAKER_02: It is the buzzword of the, yeah, no, but it's transactional.
35:40
SPEAKER_02: You, okay, you arrive, you get your photos, your meet and everything.
35:44
SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much.
35:45
SPEAKER_02: Write a nice piece of post or whatever.
35:49
SPEAKER_02: And please vote for me on 50 best.
35:51
SPEAKER_03: Vote for me on 50 best and the trip advisor review.
35:55
SPEAKER_03: You know,
35:55
SPEAKER_03: it's like,
35:56
it's almost like those cards they give you at like terrible
35:58
tourist restaurants.
35:59
SPEAKER_03: Like, please write for us at a trip advisor review.
36:03
SPEAKER_03: But now it's, you know, give us the 50 best vote.
36:06
SPEAKER_02: But in a way,
36:09
SPEAKER_02: almost like every chef,
36:11
the one we speak to is a bit puzzled and clueless in a way and
36:15
almost like helpless
36:16
SPEAKER_02: in a way because it's so hard today to navigate all this.
36:20
SPEAKER_02: And especially, it's a bit easier if you have loads of money behind you.
36:23
SPEAKER_02: You can actually invite people to fly in,
36:26
SPEAKER_02: have your meal,
36:26
SPEAKER_02: enjoy your life in some random Asian city or whatever.
36:30
SPEAKER_02: But I mean, it's really hard if you are a young person
36:34
SPEAKER_02: even super talented chef.
36:37
What would you say are the questions they are asking themselves
36:41
about what to do or
36:42
SPEAKER_01: how to go about all this?
36:45
I think often nowadays it's almost about survival in a way
36:49
because it's become very,
36:50
very hard.
36:51
SPEAKER_02: It's about how do I survive?
36:53
SPEAKER_02: How do I keep my restaurant running?
36:54
SPEAKER_02: How do I get staff?
36:56
SPEAKER_02: How do I pay the bills?
36:57
SPEAKER_02: How do I pay the taxes?
36:59
SPEAKER_02: How do I treat my staff in a fair way and keep them?
37:05
SPEAKER_02: It's almost like a full circle of madness.
37:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
37:12
SPEAKER_02: Whereas...
37:13
SPEAKER_02: it should be pretty easy in a way.
37:16
SPEAKER_02: It's like,
37:17
SPEAKER_02: you come to my restaurant,
37:19
SPEAKER_02: you pay me money,
37:20
SPEAKER_02: I feed you,
37:21
SPEAKER_02: I pay the bills,
37:22
SPEAKER_02: I go home to sleep.
37:24
SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much.
37:24
SPEAKER_02: I come back the next morning.
37:25
SPEAKER_02: I could be honest with you guys.
37:27
SPEAKER_01: But it has become so difficult because, I mean...
37:31
SPEAKER_01: Some of these restaurants are still fully booked, but people spend less.
37:35
SPEAKER_01: And that is a big problem.
37:38
SPEAKER_01: They don't spend as much as they used to spend.
37:41
So they have to come up with inventive ways to kind of work
37:46
around this and to get
37:48
SPEAKER_02: people to spend more,
37:49
stay short of time or spend more on the stuff that they make
37:53
more money on.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because you still have the same stuff.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: You still have the... Even maybe the rent is...
38:00
SPEAKER_01: more and, I mean, the product more.
38:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
38:04
So it's just...
38:05
But then there are these,
38:06
we don't think about the exceptions.
38:08
I spoke to a chef,
38:08
like a local chef,
38:10
really,
38:10
really great guy,
38:12
like an hour ago.
38:14
SPEAKER_02: And because I had some ideas about some stuff.
38:16
SPEAKER_02: We spoke about that, more technical stuff, but cooking.
38:19
SPEAKER_02: So he knows everything.
38:20
SPEAKER_02: But anyways,
38:21
SPEAKER_02: he also said,
38:22
SPEAKER_02: because they have,
38:23
SPEAKER_02: they only serve lunch and they serve lunch every weekday.
38:27
SPEAKER_02: Two dishes, one vegetarian and one normal course.
38:32
SPEAKER_02: And...
38:33
SPEAKER_02: They are kind of, they're not fine dining.
38:35
SPEAKER_02: They're more like a canteen in a way.
38:38
SPEAKER_02: But they serve a lot of people.
38:40
And what they serve the most people is when they do kind of
38:44
popular dishes in a way
38:46
SPEAKER_02: that often are perceived as a bit posh.
38:49
And he said,
38:50
in confidence,
38:51
he said,
38:51
guys,
38:52
we make the most money from this.
38:54
SPEAKER_02: The most supposedly posh dish.
38:57
SPEAKER_02: And it's simple to prepare and everything.
39:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:02
SPEAKER_02: And he's a bit puzzled.
39:04
SPEAKER_02: It's great.
39:06
SPEAKER_02: So you can actually crack this in a way.
39:10
But it's very hard if you move on to a more ambitious restaurant,
39:14
working with great produce.
39:16
You have to have a certain amount of staff to do the food and
39:20
to man the whole place.
39:22
SPEAKER_02: It's very hard.
39:24
I wanted to talk a little bit about this,
39:26
that in Copenhagen,
39:28
Stockholm,
39:28
there are a lot of
39:30
fine dining restaurants right like i mean in the population
39:35
size is not that big of
39:37
either city like there's as many as is in new york i would
39:40
assume like in the
39:42
combine those two cities i don't know maybe but but yeah
39:46
there's a lot of very
39:47
high-end tasting menu restaurants yeah and i would assume most
39:53
have managed to stay
39:55
SPEAKER_03: open i mean have a lot closed i mean i know a lot of
39:59
gone through transitions and things but it seems like most of
40:03
them have remained
40:05
open for a long time i i know but but at the same time you see
40:09
people like magnus
40:11
SPEAKER_03: and um and christian puglisi you know just kind of retreating a bit
40:21
SPEAKER_03: So I don't know what my question is.
40:24
No,
40:24
but the question is maybe if we have too many fine dining restaurants.
40:31
SPEAKER_02: I can't speak for all of them, but I think they're doing pretty okay.
40:35
SPEAKER_02: But I would say the upper mid-market is pretty oversaturated, I think.
40:42
SPEAKER_02: But, I mean, of course, everybody is struggling a little bit.
40:45
I mean,
40:45
even if you fall full,
40:47
it doesn't guarantee you,
40:49
I mean,
40:50
financial success.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: It's very, very hard.
40:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:54
SPEAKER_01: And to be honest, we don't eat that much fine dining food.
41:00
SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's the first fire truck.
41:02
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, guys.
41:05
SPEAKER_02: Well, adds to the drama, right?
41:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: No, we don't.
41:10
Here,
41:11
when we're here in Sweden and in Denmark,
41:13
we don't need that much fine dining.
41:15
SPEAKER_03: No, I don't at home either.
41:16
SPEAKER_03: I have no idea what's going on in New York.
41:21
We wish we could go to Denmark a little bit more,
41:24
but the Swedish currency is really bad.
41:27
SPEAKER_01: It's weak, so we're not really going with that much.
41:29
SPEAKER_02: But also, I mean, yeah.
41:31
SPEAKER_02: It is very, very expensive to do it.
41:34
SPEAKER_02: And I mean, can we spend that amount of money?
41:38
SPEAKER_02: I don't know, not really.
41:41
SPEAKER_02: It's hard.
41:43
SPEAKER_02: to devote that kind of money to something.
41:46
Because we also have to survive like everybody and think about
41:49
what we want to do.
41:50
And I mean,
41:50
to be honest,
41:52
sometimes it's better to buy great produce and cook at home.
41:57
SPEAKER_02: Because the wines, we have good wines in the cellar.
42:00
SPEAKER_02: And I mean, it's a cellar.
42:02
SPEAKER_02: That sounds like a fabulous place, right?
42:05
SPEAKER_02: It's two by two by two meters.
42:09
SPEAKER_02: It's a fucking cellar.
42:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:12
SPEAKER_01: Here comes another one.
42:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, another truck.
42:14
SPEAKER_02: What's going on?
42:16
SPEAKER_02: No, we have a fire somewhere.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: We have a fire station up the road.
42:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:22
SPEAKER_01: So given all these questions about fine dining,
42:25
SPEAKER_01: when you think about content,
42:28
SPEAKER_01: do you try to look for different angles or different scenarios or,
42:34
SPEAKER_01: you know,
42:34
SPEAKER_01: still trying to understand what's happening with fine dining and keep,
42:39
SPEAKER_01: you know,
42:40
SPEAKER_01: the story tuned to that process.
42:44
I'm curious about how you guide your own work because of all
42:51
these questions and,
42:53
SPEAKER_01: you know,
42:53
SPEAKER_01: that are not answered yet.
42:57
SPEAKER_02: You want to answer this one?
42:58
SPEAKER_01: No.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: When we speak about the contents of full magazine,
43:02
we always have a theme when we do full magazine that makes it
43:06
easier for us and
43:07
SPEAKER_01: makes it more timeless as well.
43:10
SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't have to be fine dining.
43:12
SPEAKER_01: It could be something else.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: It could be
43:15
about a phenomenon or like in Japan and yeah different things
43:23
so it's not really
43:25
SPEAKER_01: about the fine dining scene but of course we made fine dining stories
43:32
SPEAKER_02: But it's not because it's fine dining,
43:33
SPEAKER_02: it's because of the impact and how interesting the person is.
43:36
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
43:37
SPEAKER_02: And what that person has to say.
43:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:40
SPEAKER_01: So it's more about that.
43:42
SPEAKER_01: But of course, we haven't done that many stories around the world.
43:47
And there are so many more people,
43:49
so many more interesting people everywhere.
43:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm glad.
43:53
SPEAKER_01: But so, yeah, it's difficult.
43:56
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you just...
43:58
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the fine dining people, they are there, kind of those shifts.
44:03
You see them,
44:04
people speak about them,
44:05
and then you just become curious,
44:08
maybe.
44:09
SPEAKER_01: And that's why they are featured so much.
44:10
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
44:12
SPEAKER_02: Could be.
44:14
SPEAKER_02: If being fine dining or not, it's not very important to me.
44:17
SPEAKER_02: It's what they have to say.
44:19
SPEAKER_02: But then, I mean, there is one... This is not a full story.
44:23
SPEAKER_02: This is actually about Dave Pint that you...
44:27
interviewed recently as well a great interview by the way i
44:32
want to say thank you
44:34
fun guy that was my first time that that is really what i love
44:40
about if it's in a
44:41
wider sense what we do i mean because we do consulting we do i
44:45
do photography for
44:46
clients you do art direction and creative direction everything
44:50
for clients
44:51
SPEAKER_02: sometimes we work together yeah
44:53
And this was one of those instances when we worked together on
44:56
this book project with Dave.
44:59
And we knew him before he asked us to do this book project,
45:04
possibly if we were interested.
45:05
SPEAKER_02: And we came up with the idea.
45:07
SPEAKER_02: But then to me, I want to speak about
45:11
closeness if you're close to somebody it's very interesting
45:14
because then shit
45:16
happens in a way with David really developed as well we knew
45:20
him before a bit but
45:22
not that much but I mean we I think we developed quite a good
45:26
relationship
45:28
SPEAKER_02: which is almost as important as the finished product.
45:32
SPEAKER_02: I love the book,
45:33
SPEAKER_02: but being friends and meeting a person like that,
45:37
SPEAKER_02: it's very,
45:38
SPEAKER_02: very interesting,
45:39
SPEAKER_02: I think.
45:40
SPEAKER_01: It is.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: How do you think we're going to be timeless?
45:45
SPEAKER_01: Can you give us some examples?
45:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
45:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure that's something you discover during this conversation,
45:51
but it's interesting to think this feels like something that
45:54
it's not going to go
45:55
SPEAKER_01: away in two months or it's a trend.
45:59
we usually speak about long shelf life in a way that's the time
46:04
part of it so I
46:06
mean something that you can actually read the story after a
46:10
couple of years even
46:10
though maybe the restaurant has closed or something but it
46:13
should still be
46:15
SPEAKER_01: something that is interesting to read
46:18
SPEAKER_02: I would hate if you picked up a book or a full or whatever,
46:22
SPEAKER_02: something we made,
46:24
SPEAKER_02: and you would feel like this,
46:25
SPEAKER_02: like cringe,
46:25
SPEAKER_02: like,
46:26
SPEAKER_02: ooh,
46:26
SPEAKER_00: no,
46:27
SPEAKER_02: this looks so...
46:29
SPEAKER_02: I think that goes both for the photography and for your work,
46:35
SPEAKER_02: the signing as well.
46:37
SPEAKER_02: You might say,
46:37
SPEAKER_02: like,
46:38
SPEAKER_02: it's kind of...
46:40
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes people tell me,
46:41
SPEAKER_02: it's like,
46:41
SPEAKER_02: oh,
46:41
SPEAKER_02: I love your photography.
46:42
SPEAKER_02: It's so simple.
46:44
And I'm like,
46:45
I'm not going to hit them,
46:46
but I'm like,
46:47
yes,
46:48
it took me a lifetime to get there.
46:51
SPEAKER_02: Because it's about how do you refine things?
46:54
SPEAKER_02: How do you... It's like cooking.
46:57
SPEAKER_02: It's easy to add loads of stuff.
46:59
SPEAKER_02: And then you get something, oh, maybe interesting.
47:00
SPEAKER_02: But when do you stop?
47:02
SPEAKER_02: When do you... It's much harder to take stuff away.
47:05
SPEAKER_02: How much can you actually take away and refine something?
47:07
SPEAKER_02: The same with photography or design or whatever, I think.
47:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:11
SPEAKER_00: True.
47:13
SPEAKER_03: No,
47:13
SPEAKER_03: I was looking through the first issue full,
47:16
SPEAKER_03: like,
47:16
SPEAKER_03: this morning,
47:17
SPEAKER_03: and I was reading through it,
47:19
SPEAKER_03: and I was,
47:20
SPEAKER_03: like,
47:20
SPEAKER_03: I was impressed at how relevant all the stories still are,
47:24
SPEAKER_03: how timeless they felt.
47:26
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
47:27
SPEAKER_03: There was one exception.
47:28
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
47:30
And I just thought it was kind of funny,
47:31
but like Bruce Paling's story on natural wine.
47:35
SPEAKER_03: And at the end,
47:38
SPEAKER_03: it's like,
47:38
the reason I am not bothered about natural wines is that
47:41
ultimately they will
47:43
remain a fringe activity as I know of no existing great wines
47:47
committing our carry
47:48
SPEAKER_03: by going down the natural wine path.
47:50
SPEAKER_03: Instead,
47:51
it remains a passion in the lesser or more obscure wine regions
47:54
of the world where
47:55
they do not make wines normally considered worthy of aging for
47:58
decades or more.
48:02
Which is why I am happy to raise a glass of wine and wish them
48:05
well in their
48:06
SPEAKER_03: bizarre pursuit of purity at the expense of quality.
48:11
SPEAKER_02: Well, I don't know.
48:14
SPEAKER_02: Maybe it balances the other stuff.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:18
SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah.
48:20
SPEAKER_01: Don't we have another natural wine story in that?
48:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, there was.
48:25
SPEAKER_02: But they chose the most interesting ones.
48:27
I think it was to make the bad excuses that we wanted to
48:30
balance the first one.
48:33
SPEAKER_02: We only drink natural wines.
48:34
SPEAKER_02: But at the same time, oh, how should I put this?
48:38
SPEAKER_02: I...
48:40
SPEAKER_02: Bruce Pauling is not our greatest fan anymore.
48:43
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
48:45
SPEAKER_02: I would say... Because of natural wine.
48:47
SPEAKER_02: Because of natural wine.
48:50
SPEAKER_02: He thought we wanted to poison him, in a way, with natural wine.
48:54
SPEAKER_02: At one occasion.
48:55
SPEAKER_02: It's the truth, actually.
48:58
SPEAKER_02: This is not something we can speak about on camera or online.
49:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, of course not.
49:02
SPEAKER_02: This is very confidential.
49:04
SPEAKER_01: Oh, no, it's funny.
49:05
SPEAKER_01: It's funny.
49:07
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
49:09
If you subscribe and pay the fee for your sub stack,
49:14
we could probably do something there.
49:16
SPEAKER_02: That would be a fun one.
49:18
SPEAKER_01: We're going to do that.
49:19
SPEAKER_01: No, we are not me.
49:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to send you some stuff.
49:22
SPEAKER_01: No, we're not me.
49:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
49:23
SPEAKER_02: Every time.
49:25
SPEAKER_01: We are not mean people.
49:26
SPEAKER_01: We always have a very good intention.
49:29
SPEAKER_01: We always try to feed people well and do good things.
49:33
SPEAKER_01: We never do anything with some kind of... What is nice of the night?
49:40
SPEAKER_02: At that instance, we did nothing wrong, I can assure you.
49:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
49:45
SPEAKER_03: But even looking back at the story,
49:47
SPEAKER_03: it was still healthy debate about what was happening at the time.
49:52
SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's true.
49:56
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
49:58
I actually enjoy looking at the old issues and there is some
50:02
stuff I'm very proud of.
50:04
SPEAKER_02: And being able to meet Michel Bra in his surrounding when he was cooking,
50:09
SPEAKER_02: doing that story,
50:10
SPEAKER_02: having this closeness,
50:12
SPEAKER_02: one of the greatest chefs ever,
50:13
SPEAKER_02: I would say.
50:15
SPEAKER_03: But that's the thing.
50:15
SPEAKER_03: It's like there's all these amazing people,
50:18
SPEAKER_03: all these amazing people,
50:19
SPEAKER_03: and their stories are never really told.
50:22
SPEAKER_03: No, no.
50:23
SPEAKER_03: And it's like,
50:24
SPEAKER_03: I would love to tell so many great stories about,
50:26
SPEAKER_03: you know,
50:27
SPEAKER_03: some of these people,
50:28
SPEAKER_03: these people I met.
50:29
SPEAKER_03: And like,
50:29
SPEAKER_03: I tried to in my Substack and wherever,
50:32
SPEAKER_03: but it's like,
50:33
SPEAKER_03: it's,
50:33
SPEAKER_03: it's harder with that.
50:35
SPEAKER_03: You know, it's like, it's not built for long form writing really.
50:39
SPEAKER_03: Like I've tried to do it a few times and I have to break it up, but.
50:43
SPEAKER_03: And one, I don't have the budget for it usually with that yet.
50:48
SPEAKER_03: But still,
50:48
it's like there's all these amazing people and their stories
50:52
just become reduced to
50:54
SPEAKER_03: this number on this list.
50:58
And you never really get to know who they are,
51:02
why they're doing these things.
51:05
SPEAKER_02: It's true.
51:06
SPEAKER_02: And especially if they don't speak English.
51:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, especially.
51:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
51:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
51:14
SPEAKER_01: No, but it's... Yeah, it's all about the people.
51:17
SPEAKER_01: It's all about the people.
51:18
SPEAKER_03: It's about the people.
51:20
SPEAKER_03: Do you have a new documentary series?
51:23
SPEAKER_03: It's not out yet, though, right?
51:25
SPEAKER_03: No, it's not.
51:25
SPEAKER_01: We're still working on it.
51:27
SPEAKER_01: It's still a work in progress.
51:28
SPEAKER_01: It's called Fly in the Soup.
51:32
SPEAKER_01: And we have filmed the first episode.
51:37
SPEAKER_01: It's a bit off the track.
51:43
SPEAKER_01: And it's going to be about Ernst Restaurant in Berlin.
51:48
SPEAKER_01: They've closed now.
51:52
SPEAKER_01: But it's our way to do something different.
51:56
foolish but on film okay but as soon as when you work with film
52:02
it's a little bit
52:02
more complicated than doing a magazine a little bit yeah so we
52:07
we work with two
52:08
brilliant people on this and it's amazing and um we're looking
52:13
forward to to show
52:15
SPEAKER_01: it when it's done
52:17
SPEAKER_02: But at the same time with film and everything,
52:22
SPEAKER_02: it becomes a bit like,
52:23
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
52:24
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to do it like this.
52:25
SPEAKER_02: I don't want it to look like this.
52:26
And then when you've gone through all the don'ts,
52:29
what do you end up with?
52:30
SPEAKER_02: There has to be something left.
52:31
SPEAKER_02: I mean, actually, how do you want to tell the story?
52:34
SPEAKER_02: What do you want to do?
52:35
SPEAKER_02: And this is a way to try to do something that is,
52:39
SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
52:41
SPEAKER_02: a bit slow,
52:41
SPEAKER_02: like slow TV,
52:42
SPEAKER_02: we say.
52:43
SPEAKER_02: We call it slow.
52:44
SPEAKER_03: Is it going to be,
52:45
SPEAKER_03: like,
52:45
SPEAKER_03: full,
52:45
SPEAKER_03: where instead of,
52:47
SPEAKER_03: like,
52:47
SPEAKER_03: long 7,000-word stories,
52:49
SPEAKER_03: it's,
52:50
SPEAKER_03: like,
52:50
SPEAKER_03: a seven-hour,
52:50
SPEAKER_03: like...
52:51
SPEAKER_00: Sort of.
52:53
SPEAKER_03: Sort of.
52:54
SPEAKER_02: No, but... No, kind of.
52:57
SPEAKER_02: All right.
52:58
SPEAKER_02: It's like a chef who saw the first preview.
53:01
SPEAKER_02: He said, like, wow, this is really like it is.
53:05
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
53:06
Because this is unedited footage,
53:08
basically,
53:08
like,
53:08
seven,
53:09
eight minutes of...
53:11
SPEAKER_02: Nothing happens, but everything happens.
53:14
SPEAKER_02: It's like, it is interesting.
53:18
SPEAKER_02: And maybe the second episode will be totally different.
53:22
SPEAKER_02: But I hope we will make it more slow TV rather than TikTok.
53:28
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
53:28
SPEAKER_01: That's what we're doing.
53:30
SPEAKER_01: 100%.
53:30
SPEAKER_02: Because why do something that everybody else does?
53:32
SPEAKER_03: But do you even know where you will distribute it?
53:36
SPEAKER_03: Is it something you're going to put on YouTube or something?
53:39
SPEAKER_01: We spoke about it in so many different ways.
53:43
SPEAKER_01: It will be YouTube from the beginning.
53:46
SPEAKER_01: We've designed that.
53:47
SPEAKER_01: So then we'll see.
53:49
SPEAKER_01: Because it's a hard sell to any other.
53:53
SPEAKER_01: That's why.
53:55
SPEAKER_01: Because it's different.
53:57
SPEAKER_01: But it's like full magazine.
53:58
If we would have approached any publishing house telling them
54:03
that we would like to
54:04
SPEAKER_01: do a magazine like that,
54:05
SPEAKER_01: they would just say no.
54:07
SPEAKER_01: That's the way it is.
54:09
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
54:09
SPEAKER_01: Maybe not today, but back then, absolutely.
54:13
SPEAKER_01: From this counterculture sensibility you have to approach these stories.
54:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:24
SPEAKER_01: Is there something you feel hospitality should be doing or changing or,
54:30
SPEAKER_01: you know,
54:32
SPEAKER_01: like the energy should be directed in certain way?
54:35
SPEAKER_01: If you could decide about that,
54:37
SPEAKER_01: if you could advise chefs or,
54:40
SPEAKER_01: you know,
54:40
SPEAKER_01: have a voice on that,
54:42
what will you say to happen to make things less stressful or
54:47
just more as you were
54:50
SPEAKER_01: saying they should be,
54:51
SPEAKER_01: right?
54:51
SPEAKER_01: Simpler.
54:54
SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's a big question.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:56
SPEAKER_02: It's a very good one too.
54:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
54:58
SPEAKER_02: But I mean,
54:58
SPEAKER_02: at the same time,
54:59
SPEAKER_02: I produce my best work when I'm a bit,
55:02
SPEAKER_02: not stressed,
55:03
SPEAKER_02: but when I'm focused.
55:05
SPEAKER_02: You need to have that energy.
55:07
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, your advice is going to, yeah.
55:09
SPEAKER_02: You need your energy.
55:10
SPEAKER_02: And I think a lot of chefs,
55:11
SPEAKER_02: I can't speak for everybody,
55:12
SPEAKER_02: every chef,
55:13
SPEAKER_02: but I mean,
55:14
SPEAKER_02: it is about energy.
55:15
SPEAKER_02: It's about the drive.
55:16
SPEAKER_02: It's about the, I mean...
55:19
fire and everything I mean and of course it's draining that's
55:22
why people like like
55:23
Christian for instance takes a step back because he has really
55:28
put so much energy
55:30
into his work for so many years and you change like magnets you
55:35
change your way of
55:36
doing things and you're brave enough to stop doing your fine
55:40
dining faviken and you
55:42
do something else like apple juice apple farming apple juice
55:46
apple cider and of
55:48
SPEAKER_02: Of course, you buy a hotel and you turn it into your place.
55:53
SPEAKER_02: Another time and place, I think.
55:57
SPEAKER_02: It's very hard to know.
55:58
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
55:59
SPEAKER_02: if I could write that manual,
56:01
SPEAKER_02: like,
56:01
SPEAKER_02: it's like,
56:02
SPEAKER_02: not art of the deal,
56:04
SPEAKER_02: rather art of the hospitality,
56:06
SPEAKER_02: I would be a rich man,
56:08
SPEAKER_02: I think,
56:09
SPEAKER_02: if I could do it.
56:10
SPEAKER_02: I can't even write the manual on photograph food, for God's sakes.
56:15
SPEAKER_02: Have you tried?
56:17
SPEAKER_02: Well, I've been asked.
56:18
SPEAKER_02: And I always had, I tried.
56:20
SPEAKER_02: It's like, God, it's so instinctive.
56:23
I'm not saying I'm like Picasso or somebody,
56:26
you know,
56:27
because nobody is really.
56:28
SPEAKER_02: It was like,
56:29
SPEAKER_02: how the hell can you teach somebody to do something that is very,
56:33
SPEAKER_02: because that implies that it's all technical.
56:36
SPEAKER_02: Because it's not technical.
56:37
SPEAKER_02: To me, it's not technical.
56:39
SPEAKER_02: Painting is not technical, really.
56:41
Well,
56:41
of course,
56:41
you need your brushes,
56:42
you need your paint,
56:43
you need your,
56:44
I mean,
56:45
whatever.
56:46
SPEAKER_02: But then the magic starts when you have all the tools.
56:49
SPEAKER_02: You can buy the best camera in the world and you do shoot photography.
56:52
SPEAKER_02: I always say you have to shoot with your soul.
56:55
SPEAKER_02: You have to trust your senses in a way.
56:58
SPEAKER_02: And that's when I'm at my best when I do that.
57:00
SPEAKER_02: So it's, no, I haven't.
57:02
SPEAKER_02: It would be a very short one.
57:05
SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's a good advice.
57:07
SPEAKER_01: Trust your soul, your senses.
57:11
SPEAKER_03: This is off tangent, but could a restaurant like Mugarets open today?
57:18
SPEAKER_03: Of course.
57:18
SPEAKER_03: You think?
57:20
SPEAKER_01: I guess Alchemist opened.
57:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess so.
57:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
57:25
SPEAKER_02: But we have the big fortune to follow Margaret for seven years.
57:29
SPEAKER_02: And I mean, it's changed drastically, of course.
57:33
SPEAKER_02: It's evolved so much.
57:35
SPEAKER_02: And I mean, it's changing every year.
57:36
SPEAKER_01: Every year, yeah.
57:37
But today,
57:39
I think Mugrits is the exception,
57:41
really,
57:41
because there is no Albuya anymore.
57:44
SPEAKER_02: There are none of those.
57:45
SPEAKER_02: And I mean, there are very few restaurants that take risks in that sense.
57:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
57:50
SPEAKER_03: That's what I'm saying.
57:51
SPEAKER_03: Like, a restaurant willing to take that many risks.
57:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
57:57
SPEAKER_02: No, but I think it's wrong.
57:59
SPEAKER_02: We actually,
58:00
they are totally wrong in calling it a restaurant and they try
58:02
to find the concept
58:03
SPEAKER_02: of being a restaurant.
58:04
SPEAKER_02: So it shouldn't say restaurant.
58:06
SPEAKER_02: And at the same time, if you say like you are an experience or whatever,
58:10
SPEAKER_02: No.
58:12
SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you read the reviews, they have some incredibly bad reviews.
58:16
SPEAKER_02: Of course,
58:17
it's a mismatch between the customer's expectations and what
58:21
the customer really gets.
58:23
SPEAKER_02: But then, I mean, it's not a restaurant, really.
58:28
SPEAKER_01: No.
58:28
SPEAKER_02: It's masquerading as one.
58:30
SPEAKER_02: And I think that he really enjoys that.
58:34
SPEAKER_02: And I really hate myself not speaking Spanish,
58:37
SPEAKER_02: being able to speak to Andoni in a good way,
58:42
SPEAKER_02: to really understand.
58:42
SPEAKER_02: Because always when we try to speak, it's because...
58:46
translations and stuff it's like it's it i feel so stupid i
58:50
mean the first time we
58:51
went to mogulis was 2001 i think and and uh everybody spoke i
58:59
think basque when
59:01
they did served us the food and we were just looking at the
59:04
place like oh my god
59:06
SPEAKER_01: God, what is this?
59:07
SPEAKER_01: This is fantastic.
59:08
SPEAKER_01: Come on.
59:09
SPEAKER_02: And they should even do that today because it was magic.
59:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was so much fun.
59:13
Because you twisted your mind with somebody coming to you and
59:15
just putting a plate
59:16
SPEAKER_02: down and they go like,
59:19
SPEAKER_01: And they go away.
59:20
SPEAKER_01: That's how it felt.
59:21
SPEAKER_02: It's like, wow.
59:24
SPEAKER_02: But that was amazing.
59:26
SPEAKER_01: That was such a mind-blowing experience.
59:29
SPEAKER_01: It was just crazy.
59:30
SPEAKER_02: I love having that perspective as well.
59:32
SPEAKER_02: I don't think about being older.
59:35
SPEAKER_02: I don't feel older one second.
59:37
SPEAKER_02: But I mean,
59:38
SPEAKER_02: having a perspective,
59:39
SPEAKER_02: it's so...
59:40
SPEAKER_02: And not the perspective to be able to be dismissive,
59:43
SPEAKER_01: but...
59:44
to be able to put things in context in a way to understand a
59:48
bit more but we love
59:51
that place we think it's amazing me too and I think we've had a
59:54
conversation before
59:56
SPEAKER_03: that's why I brought it up again we got married at Mugritz oh you did?
1:00:01
SPEAKER_01: yeah wow okay so I mean yeah
1:00:05
And then we made two books with them as well,
1:00:08
which is also very interesting.
1:00:11
SPEAKER_01: I think the latest book that we did was amazing.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_01: It's called Puntos de Fuga, Vanishing Points.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_01: And it was a fantastic book to make.
1:00:24
SPEAKER_01: Really, really cool.
1:00:25
SPEAKER_02: To be honest, I think they get far less, I mean,
1:00:31
they're not appreciated the way they should be appreciated
1:00:33
because they make life
1:00:34
SPEAKER_02: so difficult for themselves.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_02: Like they made, they made a conference now, but it's all in Spanish.
1:00:43
SPEAKER_02: It's not, nothing is really in English.
1:00:44
SPEAKER_02: It's like, why guys, why do you make it like this?
1:00:46
SPEAKER_02: So much effort.
1:00:47
Cause you should reach out and tell the world your story and be
1:00:51
a bit,
1:00:52
I don't know.
1:00:55
SPEAKER_02: Let's see when we all meet and we,
1:00:57
SPEAKER_02: In 20 years' time or something,
1:00:59
SPEAKER_02: we've sewn up our eating lives,
1:01:02
SPEAKER_02: which will be the most interesting ones and timeless ones.
1:01:07
SPEAKER_03: Do you have a most interesting place that you've eaten at?
1:01:13
Is there anything that stands out in your mind,
1:01:15
like this meal,
1:01:16
this one time?
1:01:18
SPEAKER_03: That's the one.
1:01:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I have one.
1:01:20
SPEAKER_02: To me, it's really where you want to go back.
1:01:23
And sometimes you don't want to relive memories because there's
1:01:26
some magic you're
1:01:27
SPEAKER_02: afraid you want,
1:01:27
SPEAKER_02: you're going to spoil them.
1:01:28
SPEAKER_02: But I think to me,
1:01:30
SPEAKER_02: No, it's a magic place in Singapore, actually.
1:01:33
SPEAKER_02: I always put it on my 10 best meals.
1:01:35
SPEAKER_02: It's called Sanger Road Laksa.
1:01:38
It's a simple laksa stand,
1:01:40
now a bit more famous,
1:01:41
where you pay maybe $2 to get your laksa.
1:01:45
SPEAKER_02: And the first time there, I mean, it was amazing, and it's still amazing.
1:01:51
SPEAKER_02: That's one of those moments, I feel like.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_01: It's a hawkerson.
1:01:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
1:01:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:01:57
SPEAKER_01: And is there something you eat every day that you still enjoy?
1:02:04
SPEAKER_02: Bread.
1:02:04
SPEAKER_01: Bread and butter.
1:02:05
SPEAKER_01: Ah, okay, okay.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_01: Bread and butter.
1:02:08
SPEAKER_01: You never live without butter.
1:02:09
SPEAKER_01: No, it's not.
1:02:11
SPEAKER_02: But it's a staple of everything.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_01: I mean, sometimes... The two of you, bread and butter.
1:02:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 100%.
1:02:19
Because sometimes we don't have time to cook or we can't be
1:02:22
bothered because we had
1:02:23
SPEAKER_02: a big lunch or whatever.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_01: Bread and butter.
1:02:26
Oh,
1:02:26
yeah,
1:02:26
I saw pictures,
1:02:27
such a beautiful picture of just bread and butter.
1:02:29
SPEAKER_01: Delicious, yeah.
1:02:32
We do bread and butter and you can add some good salami,
1:02:35
chorizo,
1:02:36
maybe some cheese or whatever.
1:02:38
SPEAKER_02: And then it's a meal.
1:02:39
SPEAKER_02: Open a bottle of wine and you're fine.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_01: What about you, Nick?
1:02:43
SPEAKER_01: That daily thing that you still enjoy, you know, you cherish.
1:02:49
SPEAKER_03: It's like the thing I cherish the most is coffee, like every day.
1:02:53
SPEAKER_03: But, you know, like, but my daily meals, I don't know.
1:02:57
It revolves so much around my kids right now and what they're
1:03:00
eating that the
1:03:02
SPEAKER_03: things I enjoy are very secondary.
1:03:04
SPEAKER_03: But,
1:03:04
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
1:03:04
SPEAKER_03: I would say bread and butter,
1:03:05
SPEAKER_03: too,
1:03:06
SPEAKER_03: though,
1:03:06
SPEAKER_03: or tortillas,
1:03:08
SPEAKER_03: like fresh tortillas,
1:03:09
SPEAKER_03: like,
1:03:10
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:03:10
SPEAKER_00: just from masienda,
1:03:12
SPEAKER_03: you know,
1:03:13
SPEAKER_03: corn and stuff like that.
1:03:15
SPEAKER_03: Those two things would be my, like, daily simple meals.
1:03:19
you know comfort and you uh coffee definitely yeah i will say
1:03:28
coffee and fruit
1:03:30
those are two things that make my cells be me well what are you
1:03:36
going to do now
1:03:36
that we're basically cut off from fruit in the united states
1:03:39
just like oh my god
1:03:41
SPEAKER_00: yeah yeah
1:03:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
1:03:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I will, you know, just maybe keep losing my identity.
1:03:51
SPEAKER_02: You must live, all of you, you must live and eat like the president.
1:03:55
SPEAKER_02: And then you're going to die in obesity in a year or something.
1:04:02
SPEAKER_01: No,
1:04:02
SPEAKER_01: fruit is really,
1:04:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
1:04:03
SPEAKER_01: I just came back and it's so natural to feed yourself with fruit there.
1:04:10
SPEAKER_01: I think we, Colombians, are fruit people.
1:04:12
SPEAKER_01: We are made of fruit and coffee.
1:04:15
So I feel that there is a part of me that is falling apart when
1:04:19
those two things are not there.
1:04:22
SPEAKER_01: It's chemical.
1:04:23
SPEAKER_01: I think it's just structural.
1:04:25
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's the same for you with bread and butter, probably.
1:04:28
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
1:04:29
SPEAKER_02: But fruit, that's exactly our breakfast.
1:04:31
SPEAKER_02: It's bread, butter, some jams, and then Lot always does the fruit.
1:04:36
SPEAKER_02: And when we met, I didn't eat that much.
1:04:39
SPEAKER_01: No, you did not eat fruit.
1:04:41
SPEAKER_02: I said much.
1:04:46
SPEAKER_02: It's really nice to have it.
1:04:49
SPEAKER_01: It's important.
1:04:52
SPEAKER_01: Ah, nice.
1:04:53
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:04:54
SPEAKER_01: So when can we see the next issue?
1:04:57
SPEAKER_01: You don't have a date.
1:04:58
SPEAKER_03: There's no real date.
1:04:59
SPEAKER_03: Is it like years away?
1:05:02
SPEAKER_02: Is it months?
1:05:06
SPEAKER_02: In a year, I would say we have to do it.
1:05:07
SPEAKER_02: Otherwise it won't be done.
1:05:09
SPEAKER_02: We need a deadline.
1:05:10
SPEAKER_01: But the documentary is coming sooner.
1:05:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, hopefully.
1:05:14
SPEAKER_02: It's coming soon.
1:05:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely.
1:05:20
If there's any sponsor out there willing to throw some money at
1:05:24
us for some great
1:05:28
SPEAKER_02: visibility in the next full magazine,
1:05:30
SPEAKER_02: we are very interested.
1:05:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:05:34
SPEAKER_02: Hopefully out there, somebody.
1:05:37
SPEAKER_02: It's going to be a rough one.
1:05:39
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, God.
1:05:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't know.
1:05:44
SPEAKER_02: How could we,
1:05:44
SPEAKER_02: sorry,
1:05:45
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
1:05:45
SPEAKER_02: how could I possibly look myself in the eye and not,
1:05:49
SPEAKER_02: well,
1:05:49
SPEAKER_02: in the mirror maybe,
1:05:51
if we don't do anything about Ukraine and how war actually
1:05:58
affects people and what
1:06:00
they eat and how they eat and if they eat at all and try to
1:06:04
tell these stories that
1:06:05
SPEAKER_02: they're not told because there is,
1:06:07
SPEAKER_02: everybody,
1:06:08
SPEAKER_02: even in a war zone,
1:06:08
SPEAKER_02: you need to eat every day and how the hell do you manage?
1:06:11
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
1:06:11
SPEAKER_02: What would happen?
1:06:12
SPEAKER_02: These stories we have to tell.
1:06:14
SPEAKER_02: It's so, so, so important.
1:06:16
SPEAKER_02: To think out of the box.
1:06:18
SPEAKER_02: It's not about fine dining with white cloths and everything.
1:06:22
SPEAKER_02: It's about how the hell do people survive?
1:06:26
It's like when we worked with the Burnt Ends book and working
1:06:30
with Ian Levin,
1:06:31
the illustrator.
1:06:33
SPEAKER_01: He lived in Kiev.
1:06:35
SPEAKER_01: And he's from Belarus, but I mean, but he lived in Kiev.
1:06:41
SPEAKER_01: Just having the meetings with him online, it was very emotional.
1:06:45
SPEAKER_02: And Ian, well, he did a lot of illustrations for the book.
1:06:50
SPEAKER_02: And now he is actually,
1:06:52
he's in the army and he is actually fighting the Russians and
1:06:56
he's a drone pilot.
1:06:58
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
1:07:01
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
1:07:03
SPEAKER_01: He's posting on Instagram so we can see that he's still with us.
1:07:07
SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
1:07:09
SPEAKER_03: What's his name so we can follow him?
1:07:11
SPEAKER_02: Ian Levin.
1:07:12
SPEAKER_02: On Instagram, he's called something else.
1:07:15
SPEAKER_02: It's kind of complicated.
1:07:17
SPEAKER_02: Call sign.
1:07:19
SPEAKER_02: But it's like today when they speak about cutting off the person.
1:07:25
SPEAKER_02: Cutting off, not even the aid, but the whole access to intelligence.
1:07:31
SPEAKER_02: It's like, oh.
1:07:34
SPEAKER_01: It's about people.
1:07:35
SPEAKER_02: It's about fucking people.
1:07:36
SPEAKER_02: It's not about...
1:07:38
SPEAKER_01: But we worked with him because Dave loved his tattoo artist.
1:07:43
SPEAKER_01: So Dave loved his tattoos.
1:07:45
SPEAKER_01: So he made wallpaper for the restaurant.
1:07:49
SPEAKER_01: So that's how it came about.
1:07:52
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
1:07:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:07:55
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:07:56
SPEAKER_02: Well, let's cheer up.
1:08:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I don't know.
1:08:03
SPEAKER_03: It's like, it's so hard this last like month.
1:08:06
couple of months and like i was saying before we started the
1:08:09
interview i was i was
1:08:10
in the jungle you know most of all february almost and like
1:08:16
every once in a while
1:08:16
when i would get signaled again it was just like oh my god like
1:08:22
can i just you know
1:08:23
go deeper in the jungle but the same issues end up happening
1:08:27
there too so it's like
1:08:30
SPEAKER_03: everything going on affects everywhere yeah that's true true
1:08:36
SPEAKER_02: Sure does.
1:08:38
SPEAKER_03: Well, anyway, I'm glad we're all still trying.
1:08:43
SPEAKER_03: We're all fighting the good fight.
1:08:46
SPEAKER_01: All these conversations make the difference.
1:08:54
SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much.
1:08:55
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
1:08:57
SPEAKER_01: It's a pleasure to meet you.
1:09:02
SPEAKER_01: And thank you for taking the time.
1:09:04
SPEAKER_03: Thank you everyone for listening to that interview with P.A.
1:09:09
and Lota Jorgensen of Full Magazine and lots of art and
1:09:17
photography for the
1:09:19
SPEAKER_03: culinary world over the last many years.
1:09:25
Great people support their projects because they're really
1:09:28
important and they're
1:09:30
SPEAKER_03: very distinct and different.
1:09:32
SPEAKER_03: If you haven't subscribed to the newsletter, go to newworlder.com.
1:09:36
SPEAKER_03: Support us.
1:09:37
SPEAKER_03: It really helps.
1:09:40
SPEAKER_03: Independent media should be a focus for everyone.
1:09:46
SPEAKER_03: Because we do try to tell different kinds of stories.
1:09:50
SPEAKER_03: Not the things in the mainstream.
1:09:52
SPEAKER_03: But the things that get overlooked.
1:09:54
SPEAKER_03: So please, help us all out.
1:09:56
SPEAKER_03: Spread the word.
1:09:57
SPEAKER_03: Not just us, but everybody else too.
1:09:58
SPEAKER_03: And...
1:10:00
SPEAKER_03: Thank you to my friend Pat Buzzard for providing the music to the show.
1:10:04
SPEAKER_03: And that's it.
1:10:06
SPEAKER_03: See everyone next time.