Latest / AAC Access All Areas / How Do We Support Monotropic Attention with AAC?
Transcript
- Ali Battye (she/her): Hello and welcome to AAC Access All Areas. I just had a little hesitation there because I'm worried that I couldn't actually remember the name of our podcast. It is AAC Access All Areas, I think. My name is Ali Bhatti. Ruth: And I'm Ruth Jones and this is AAC, Access All Areas. And today our question is, how do we support monotropic attention profiles with AAC? Ali Battye (she/her): Yes, so Ruth had expertly summarized that little question, but to give you context as to where the question came from, it was a listener who said, I listened to the podcast. It's great, thank you. And really useful as a parent who was self-funded and introduced an AAC app, TD snapped my little boy around 10 months ago. I was just wondering if you can give any advice on stimming. My little one's special interest is animals and dinosaurs and we're noticing at home and nursery he likes to stim on the AAC flicking between different animals and dinosaurs which is not an issue as clearly enjoying the names being labelled and seeing the symbols. However, he can become hyper focused on doing this for excessive periods and I'm not sure whether to interject after a certain period. He's on the express call version, navigates the app really well. he is four and he is a GLP. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Ruth: Hmm. I think that is there's a there's a lot to unpack there isn't there and I think first it's probably worth us considering what are these words monotropic and hyperfocus. So when we think about attention profiles and as we learn more and understand more and typically the term hyperfocus is kind of associated with an ADHD profile and monotropic attention is associated more with an autism profile but generally they're kind of used a bit interchangeably but what we think about isn't it is with these these kind of profiles of attention is when something grabs someone the attention that they place on that is like shining this bright bright torch that's got battery life that goes on forever on that particular topic and so that particular activity that particular sensory experience and there is this deep connection with whatever that stimulation is for someone. And these are the kind of individuals that you might see struggling when you go, it's time to go for snack five, four, three, because they are so immersed in the experience of whatever it is they're doing and you haven't let them finish that experience. So it's a really important profile. And in fact, I was at a conference. in January and Pete Warmby was speaking and talking about like Ali Battye (she/her): Thank Ruth: five tips for education, talking about mainstream and autism and one of them was understand monotropism Ali Battye (she/her): know. Ruth: because if you understand it and you can kind of see it, name it, you can support it and I think that's something within AAC that's really important isn't it? Like this parent's talking about that hyper focus like I can see that my child is deeply truly engaged in the context of dinosaurs Ali Battye (she/her): Thank you. Ruth: and it's bringing them a lot of pleasure. Ali Battye (she/her): Hmm. Ruth: And so I'm noticing that, but then the next question is sort of like, how do I support it? Do I step in? Do I not? Like, when is it a barrier as opposed to being a nice activity? And that's so common, isn't it, with our, particularly Ali Battye (she/her): Yes. Ruth: I our high tech AAC users, because you get the voice output of these Ali Battye (she/her): Thank Ruth: lovely things that they're enjoying. Ali Battye (she/her): Mm, yeah, yeah. And my first thought is brilliant. Like if they are hyper-focused on their AAC fabulous, that's kind of like a dream scenario. And if they are loving exploring particular pages, there's lots of things that that might be providing for them. So it might be experiencing that sort of like babble phase that speaking children naturally have and that is delightful and they're gaining sort of agency over playing with sounds and playing with words and playing with language. I think sometimes we can think of it as they're analyzing the language as well, like they're trying to work out what do these words mean. What does this word sound like compared to that word? How can I combine those words sometimes if we're lucky? They're playing with maybe building some phrases. So there's all sorts of useful things around a child exploring their AAC on their own and giving them opportunities to explore it on their own, I think can be a really good move. Ruth: Yeah, certainly. I think there's a lot of delight when a child does that. And I often hear then the next pieces and then when I try to model, they've backed my hand away or they don't like it, they don't engage. And I think particularly in those early exploratory phases, or if they are in a real monotropic state of attention, they're working out their ownership over a device. So they're like, hey, hands off my voice. I'm playing with this. words, I'm playing with these sounds, I'm playing with these experiences that I haven't had before, or you get that hands off, I'm in the zone here, don't you interrupt my joyful moment of deep intense attention that I'm having with these things. And I think one of the things I often find as a therapist, and it actually only happened to me this week, is when you're alongside a child and they're in their play and they're in that moment and you go to model and they kind of are like no, not now. Ali Battye (she/her): you Ruth: can feel, personal is not the right word, but you think god I've got that wrong, didn't do that very well, like that really didn't, you know, I just misread the signals there and it didn't Ali Battye (she/her): Yeah. Ruth: kind of land as you want and so I think having some strategies, want to be kind to ourselves because sometimes even with the best will in the world you can be so tuned into a child and still not quite time that model right or Ali Battye (she/her): Hmm. Ruth: get it right, can you? But having some ideas of alternatives or other ways. In fact, somebody just messaged me on Instagram or I was just messaging them back and they were saying sort of something very similar that a child, one child was looking at the dessert page, delightful. And another child was looking at, I can't remember what the message said. But I said, actually, maybe rather than you using paper to model, you might be able to print screen. their favorite page to have a paper-based one alongside. So they can still Ali Battye (she/her): Hi. Ruth: see their favorite things, they can still engage in their favorite things, but if you want to try and model on the device when you don't have the luxury of two devices, perhaps having the paper-based version of their super hyper-focused page that they love, yes, you don't Ali Battye (she/her): Yeah. Ruth: get the voice out, but there's all sorts of things, but that could be a strategy to have a go with. Ali Battye (she/her): Yes. Ruth: What are your top tips? Ali Battye (she/her): and I would, I mean, I think that's a great idea. Echo what you've said around that. And, you know, like we're sometimes offering language modelling, but if it's not welcome, then, you know, like we can respect that because I suppose it's a Ruth: Yes. Ali Battye (she/her): bit like, so we have internalised language, or I think most people do, in that you can sort of hear your voice in your head talking to yourself. don't think that's just me. And that is very regulatory, like being able to talk to ourselves can be a real comfort. It can guide us in difficult situations. It can also be a negative, but it is important that we are sort of like encouraging that child to develop their own inner voice as well. And to do that, they need some space to explore their own language and putting together their own messages and if we come along and we interrupt that process because we haven't actually realised that that's what they're doing, I guess that is as irritating as you're having a lovely daydream and someone comes along and wants to talk to you about astrophysics or something that does not float your boat. Sorry Stevie, my husband. We have that scenario quite a lot. you So yes, and I liked what you said Ruth because we try our best to be attuned but we're not going to get it 100 % perfect. We're probably going to, you know, if we're doing quite well, maybe 70%, 60%. Ruth: Yeah. Ali Battye (she/her): So yeah, I think don't take it personally when our sort of support is not welcome in that Ruth: Mm. Ali Battye (she/her): moment because it might be at another time but now is just not the moment. Ruth: Yeah, and I think sometimes Ali Battye (she/her): I was also thinking about... Ruth: as well we obviously to say, think we have put pressure on ourselves because we're like, we're here to model, we're here to do the input bit and so you can feel like, I've got to be doing the input bit and doing the modelling and sometimes just really pausing and noticing whether that's our own internal drivers to do the input versus Ali Battye (she/her): Yeah. Ruth: the child like preference for in that moment what they... are in the zone of doing and preserving that therapeutic relationship or you know like teacher child, parent child, whatever it is, preserving that relationship and that space of trust and safety and I certainly have done a model, like tried to model before and had my hand battered away or what not and I will then model some language, spoken language like not now Ruth I'm busy you know and sometimes that will get a little giggle from a child it'll get a little look like okay you're not gonna say no, don't do that or whatever. You're actually just gonna be like, I see you and I notice what you're doing and I'm in the middle of something. So I think that's also something to think about is that is still a communication opportunity and we can still model some language that validates that experience and preserves that relationship without the AAC. Ali Battye (she/her): Yes, yes and actually coincidentally I had a really good example of this kind of thing earlier on this morning. So I was in a session with a child and he just really wanted to play with Play-Doh and I hadn't brought any today. So he was sort of like saying I want Play-Doh and I was saying I don't have any and he knew that sometimes there is play-doh in the therapy room cupboard that has a lock on it. So I was having to model, we can't, it's not mine. And I was using his AAC to model that as well. And he was kind of noting that, his eyes were very much going to the sentence bar and noting what I'd said. But then he would delete what I'd said and go back to I want play-doh and probably repeated that sort of like, ten times as in between, like in the meantime, I had said, I will get some play dough for next time. Next time I will bring play dough. I had modeled, it's frustrating. And whilst I think there was a certain amount of acknowledgement of what I was saying, it was also, I want play dough. Go back to that. I want play dough. And that was possibly a sort of example of when we are so we've got in our mind what we want to do and we can't it is enraging and someone sort of like interrupting that in the moment of dysregulation is probably quite annoying. It takes me to a little bit to tendril theory, which I think I learned through Kerry Murphy's brilliant book, Neurodiversity Affirming Practices in the early years. It's brilliant. Ruth: Early childhood, yeah it is. Ali Battye (she/her): early childhood maybe neurodiversity of family practices in early childhood that's it. And she just referenced tendril theory and I was like what's tendril theory and found a really good visual to explain it so if you google that you'll see this brilliant visual and tendril theory is that when particularly neurodivergent children and adults because I definitely experienced this are really into an activity they're is sending out connections or tendrils to lots of different areas and like hooking in really fast because I love this and I'm exploring it and I'm in the zone and lots of neurons are firing and then somebody coming along and redirecting us to astrophysics in that moment is like ripping out those gorgeous tendrils that are making those beautiful connections and snapping them off if they do that without any notice. So the suggestion is that we give children time to retract their tendrils. And a practical way of doing that is we've got five more minutes, say that five minutes before the transition, and then you almost don't need to say anything else because it just gives that person or that child time to start disengaging. It won't be perfect. It won't work every time. But I have found that to be quite life changing since I started using that, just saying once, we've got five more minutes and then just waiting for those tendrils to naturally retract. Ruth: Yeah, it is interesting, isn't it? I'm actually thinking of an experience I had in a session recently on a walk and... we got incredibly hyper focused on door frames and a door that wasn't closing properly and what was going on with that and We spent a long time there and I just couldn't retract those tendrils and I love that I'm reframing that particular challenge which I've been reflecting on again and again and again and what did I do wrong? How could I do things differently? Did I you know? all those should have, would have, could have sort of thoughts. And I'm like, actually, maybe there's something about, yeah, retracting tendrils and how we think about that. I think there's also something as well, isn't there, kind of those loops that some children will get in that are quite regulatory. And so thinking about like the particular example with the door frames, I notice an increase in the focus on door frames and doors being closed when for that particular young person, there's an increase in anxiety. Ali Battye (she/her): Mm. Ruth: And so there's something about perhaps considering if you have got a child who's going through a bit of a loop with their AAC, whether that's, you know, several words together and then listening to it or putting lots of words on and then listening to them. And it could be a bit of a regulatory loop that they are in. And it's sort of noticing, think sometimes if that is a helpful thing, but equally for some. individuals sometimes those loops can actually add to their distress and add to the dysregulation so just noticing what that's looking like for a child and how that's showing up will also guide you in terms of like let them or let's think about that five more minutes or how do we kind of move on to Ali Battye (she/her): Yeah. Ruth: the next thing based on your tuning into whether this is like a really lovely experience for them or actually Ali Battye (she/her): Yes. Ruth: something You know, thinking about the Play-Doh example, like you said, I've definitely worked with children where when they've wanted something they can't have, and then we get sort of in that loop of being quite repetitive in their requests Ali Battye (she/her): So, thank you. Ruth: of things. Sometimes we kind of need to be like, it's finished, we need to, because you can validate, you can hold space, you can do all the regulation, but actually sometimes getting stuck just... almost serves as a vehicle for the stress and anxiety and it kind of takes off a bit like a rocket. So that's sometimes where you maybe think about like how it's serving that child in those particular times as well. Ali Battye (she/her): Yes, yeah, it's so nuanced, isn't it? I guess there are no sort of clear, there's not a recipe for how we approach these things. It's sort of like getting to know a person well and doing our best and we will make mistakes sometimes. sometimes we will learn what is more helpful and be able to use that in the future. yeah. Another thought around, specifically around stimming, when we're hearing a child pressing a button over and over and over again and perhaps doing it so quickly that they're only hearing the first sound in a word. Ruth: Thank Ali Battye (she/her): That might be playing with the sounds of speech. It might be sort of like exploring the musicality or the rhythms of speech Ruth: you Ali Battye (she/her): as well. And one thing that I once picked up from somebody, I think it was probably Crescendo Communication, who's on Instagram, a speech and language therapist in the States, suggested that we might join in with that. as using their talker and using a sort of like, you know, they get into a bit of a hip hop or a rap mode, we might then copy that back. And I've done that a couple of times. And that seems to have gone down quite nicely that we're Ruth: Thank Ali Battye (she/her): then showing appreciation of, I like what you're doing there. That is fun. I can see why you're doing Ruth: Yeah. Ali Battye (she/her): that because it's fun. So that's another Ruth: Yes. Ali Battye (she/her): sort of idea around that. Ruth: And I think there's something here as well, isn't there, around those different communication partners and different communication environments? Because as Ali Battye (she/her): Yeah. Ruth: a therapist, like we just roll with the child, don't we? And at home, arguably, that's probably easier to do as well because you're generally on more leisure time. I think sometimes that's probably a trickier one for teachers and teaching Ali Battye (she/her): Mm. Ruth: assistants to navigate in the classroom. Because that's often something I come up with is at home, you kind of get that curiosity over, is it OK? not, is there anything we should be doing or not doing? In school often this thing is, but it's distracting everyone else or it's problematic. And I think they're the times where it's hard to balance that neuro-affirming practice with Ali Battye (she/her): none. Ruth: the systems and expectations of systems around a child Ali Battye (she/her): Thank you. Ruth: and the environment they're in, isn't it? you get Ali Battye (she/her): Mm. Ruth: some people who super creative and then suddenly the whole class has a movement break to the rap that that child's just created. Ali Battye (she/her): Yes. Ruth: and notice that they're saying something and creating something beautiful and musical. Ali Battye (she/her): Yeah, yeah. Ruth: And there are other times when you think actually, no, in like, for example, a more formal classroom, even within a specialist school, if you've got an AAC user who's doing that, and actually it's the middle of a maths lesson and everyone's sat doing their learning, there's that, how do I support them in that? moment and what does that look like? I think, I don't know, maybe I'm like coming around to this myself as I'm talking, there is about knowing that individual, isn't there, and tuning in. And is that a communication in itself because I'm using it maybe to regulate? Is it because Ali Battye (she/her): you Ruth: the language of the lesson is too tricky and I can't process it Ali Battye (she/her): Mm-hmm. Ruth: and so I need to regulate? Is it that the environment is too much for me so I'm using the Sims as a regulatory tool? Is it that this is my favorite subject ever and I'm just buzzing about it and I want to... tell everyone. And I think, know, actually, I'm just in middle of preparing a presentation. And I'm calling it It Depends, because I think Ali Battye (she/her): Mmm. Ruth: that is point of what we do. It depends on there is nuance to each of these different scenarios. And so Ali Battye (she/her): you Ruth: hopefully, as we talk through things within each episode of our podcast, we talk about a range of different stuff, don't we? That whoever's listening can pull the bits that feels like it. fits the individual that they're wondering about because we'd Ali Battye (she/her): Yeah. Ruth: always go to sessions, won't we, in training or you read a book or you listen to something you think, that would work for that particular child that I worked with Ali Battye (she/her): I'm not. Yes. Ruth: that particular scenario because it isn't one size ever. Ali Battye (she/her): Yeah, yeah. And if we're supporting maybe an older child or a young person, we might do a little bit of work around when is it okay to be really silly with our speech or to swear or say really cheeky things. And when is it probably not going to go down so well. And that might be using a social story. with a sort of like, I always want to caveat it with empathy. I know that social story can be used in a sort of like negative way of like what you should have done, but we can do it in a positive way of... We understand why you might be doing that and we get that urge too. But that might not be best in this situation and this is what we might do instead. You can make some really, really good social stories with AI now. I don't want to blow up the planet, but you know, like that would be sort of like one of my justified uses of AI that you can create really lovely social stories. Another thought that I had, and I know we need to Ruth: And I think if you come back then from home. Ali Battye (she/her): round this up soon, don't we Ruth? But another thought that I had is perhaps if a child seems really like stuck in the saying the same thing, it might be time to sort of like models some more pages that they might be interested, stuff they might be interested in. So I'm always kind of trying to think, I wonder what else they might be interested in and experimenting with new acting. activities and new pages on their talker to explore and and sometimes that will go down well sometimes it won't but just Letting them sort of like see what else is on their talker can be really helpful At the same time as respecting there that they will have favorite things that they want to say many times over Ruth: Yeah, I think so. The other thing I was just thinking about a little bit is as well when you talked about the sort of the five minutes thing, just to give them the heads up that there is a change coming. That's when also you could deploy some of those visuals, isn't it? Like putting out your sand timer. So you might just say it once, but you've got a timer or I quite like the shapes on a card, you know. So if you've got five minutes, you might have five shapes. And again, if you tune into that child and you go, right, I'm going to take a shape off after a minute. And then you go, we're still looking like those tendrils are pretty stuck out there. You might go, I'm going to give the next shape a few minutes because actually I don't think five is going to be enough for that retraction, Ali Battye (she/her): Yeah. Ruth: which is where at sand time it could feel a bit like, God, the time is finished and they're not finished. What do we do? How do we go Ali Battye (she/her): Yes. Yeah. Ruth: from here? Whereas I think sometimes there's more flexible things. Ali Battye (she/her): Yes! Ruth: And so it's visual, it can be in a child's eye line, but you're not putting in that input of four more minutes, three more minutes, two more minutes, one more minute, five, four, three, two, one, it's finished. Ali Battye (she/her): Yes, yes, we don't paint ourselves into a corner. Yeah, another thing that I picked up from Ruth: and I think that's quite important. Ali Battye (she/her): a parent that has been really useful is opening the door like at the time of a Ruth: Yeah. Ali Battye (she/her): transition. Just like me moving to the door and opening it can be really helpful as well because I'm just providing a visual of like and this is where we're going next. So thank you to that Ruth: Yep. Ali Battye (she/her): parent that taught me that because that was it's so simple but I'd never thought about it before but it's been revolutionary. Ruth: Yeah, and it's things like if you've got a in a classroom and you've said five more minutes, clearing their visual field. So if they are in a hyper focus on something on their AAC, just clear the other things out the way. So it's like, actually, you can have your tendrils in that. And then once we're finished, we're going to move on to something else. So you might have nothing or you might put the next thing out next to the device. So that again, it's in their visual field. It's just sort of thinking about those. gentle ways, isn't it, to support the tendrils? I think if we're going to talk about it in one particular way this week, support the tendrils. That's it. I love that. Thanks, Kerry. Ali Battye (she/her): Yes, support the tendrils. Yes, protect those tendrils. And then my final thought, you might have another one Ruth, but my final thought on this is that it's probably a phase. Like if it is driving you crackers, if you are a parent and your child is just saying poo poo poo bum bum bum, it is probably just a phase that all children go through and they won't be doing that forever. yeah, just some reassurance. I know it can feel all like this is driving me crazy. I've got a child at the moment who sings the Domino's Pizza jingle and that's one of her preferred Ruth: Definitely do. Ali Battye (she/her): stims at the moment and I think that's driving her mum crazy. And that does happen with all children I think at times so it's just that reassurance this is just a phase it will pass. They will have more things to say. Ruth: Yeah. And I've definitely talked to families before, and this is really, it's going to sound controversial to start with, but let me explain, about playing around with the volume on devices. You know, so I would never say turn it off because actually it needs to be voice output, but... If you are in a small closed space and a child is stimming, some children, for them, it's got to be full volume and that's how it's got to be and respect that. But I would talk to my children about, is this our, we actually in our house, we do like animals, so we have different animal voices. So we've got like our mouse is our quiet voice and the lion's the roar. But you know, like talking about for where you are, the volume we might try and pitch it at. And so you can sort play around with, we need our lion voice. Let's turn it all the way up. actually, we're in the library. We need our mouse voice. Let's turn it down a bit. So we're not turning it off because I would never, ever advocate Ali Battye (she/her): Yeah. Ruth: for that. But just playing about with volume as well can be something quite simple if you are in that kind of situation where you're like, I can't do this because we would all tell our kids to be quiet sometimes. Ali Battye (she/her): Yeah, yeah, that's a really nice thing. I think that's a lovely one to end on Ruth, because that's so empowering as well, isn't it, to be able to adjust volume and a child to learn how to turn it up and down so that they can shout when they want to and they can Ruth: Yeah. Ali Battye (she/her): have privacy when they want it as well. Ruth: Yeah, and a lot of the apps have accessible ways to do that within the app as well. So you don't have to use the volume buttons if there's tricky, you know, with the cases, sometimes those buttons can be tricky to find and use. So having Ali Battye (she/her): they can. Ruth: a look where your child's volume buttons are in the app is probably worth doing. And then just modeling as well, because that's another great function for them to be able to say normally on that page is like, charge it as well as turn turn the volume up, turn the volume down, Ali Battye (she/her): Yeah. Ruth: those kinds of things. So bit of autonomy over their device, I think is really good. And we normally then at the end come to our glimmers, don't we? Ali Battye (she/her): No. Ruth: And I've got a really lovely one actually that when this person said this to me, I was like, I'm gonna hold onto that and I'm gonna remember that for this glimmer. And it's a teacher that I've worked with for a while. And we were chatting one day about... I can't remember how the podcast came up and she said, I didn't know you had a podcast. And I said, yeah. Like Ali and I, we just chat about AAC. She's like, AAC is on my personal development thing. and I saw her the next week and she said, I have listened to all your episodes and that she'd even like not gone into school because there was a few minutes left and she's like, I just want to sit and listen to your podcast. And she said it had helped her think about things. She was already doing things differently in her classroom. Like. And this is a teacher who has got a lot on with the cohort of children within their quite complex, high support needs class, lots of varying needs. It's a really, really tricky classroom in terms of kind of meeting everyone's needs. And I thought, gosh, in and amongst all of that, you've still been listening to a podcast and bringing in strategies like just, yeah. So I just thought that was such a glimmer for me to actually have somebody say that you know, that they've listened and it's been helpful. So thanks. Ali Battye (she/her): Yes, and I'm glimmering as well with that one. That's lovely. sort of like that. That wasn't necessarily like our number one thought. I think we were focusing the podcast particularly on parents, but it's an added bonus, isn't it? If it's supportive Ruth: Yes. Yes. Ali Battye (she/her): for other people as well. So hi, that person. Thank you. My one is a little subtle one. this week. So I was supporting a new TA who's new to working with this child and the child is fairly new to me. We only introduced AAC in the summer term and we're in September now. We're very much in the phase where I'm doing some modeling and modeling spoken language, I'm modeling little words and phrases on their AAC and also leaving lots of silence and space for sort of like just processing time within our sessions. So this TA came into the session, we had a really good chat and I could just tell straight away that she totally got it. She totally got the thing about multimodal communication. She totally got the thing about modeling, also leaving space and silence. And she totally got this child's sensory needs, need for movement, and the things that are gonna bring him joy. And so we had a really nice session and early engagement from him looks like him sort of occasionally just looking at the AAC when I've modeled something. And right at the end, he came up close to it and his hand sort of like hovered. in front of it and then quickly retracted talking about retraction is the word of the day and she noticed that and she said nearly and it just got me thinking how much bravery it takes a child to use their AAC like it is such a big thing to put themselves out there and try something out I've been thinking about this a lot since going on holiday in France and how scared I have been to to out loud communicate in another language. And so that also took me to that of how what a big thing it is and not to be disappointed when we see that almost but not quite because that's it's coming. We're going to get there some any day or maybe in a couple of months, Ruth: Yeah, yeah. Ali Battye (she/her): maybe a few months. But that the increased engagement is really promising and I love that the TA noticed it. Ruth: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I was going to say, actually, there's something about when you see an adult who is attuned to that child's communication and sharing in the joy of the potential communication that's coming Ali Battye (she/her): Yeah. Yeah. Ruth: and those little moments of progress. Ali Battye (she/her): Yes. Ruth: Because you also know that then when you leave as a speech therapist, you're leaving them with an adult who is going to be doing their darndest to support that AAC. in the however many tens of hundreds of thousands of minutes that child Ali Battye (she/her): Yes. Ruth: is not in your presence as a speech therapist and that is such a good feeling isn't it where you think Ali Battye (she/her): Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. And as I was driving back from the school this morning, I was amusing myself with what could we call that? That is a near hit moment. You know, you get near misses. That was a near Ruth: Yeah. Ali Battye (she/her): hit moment with AAC. And I think we see quite a lot of those near hits and we'll take them because it's promising. Yes. Ruth: Yeah, because it's all progress, isn't it? There's little moments, absolutely. It has been so lovely. I'm thinking that I will try and remember to put in the show notes the link to Kerry's tendril theory and Kerry's book that we've talked a little bit about. And we will look forward to seeing everyone next time. Ali Battye (she/her): Take care, Ruth, bye bye. Ruth: Bye!