Latest / Moral Injury Support Network Podcast / Healing After Service: A Veteran Therapist’s Guide

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Healing After Service: A Veteran Therapist’s Guide · Moral Injury Support Network Podcast

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, gonna I will I will edit that part a lot.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just gonna say if there is any uh editing you need to do, just say, okay, stop, let's edit that.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Let me say it again.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and not just like post up the whole thing without it.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so let's get started again.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Here we go.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, welcome to the Moral Injury Support Network Podcast.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Dr.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Daniel Roberts, president and CEO of Moral Injury Support Network for Service Women Incorporated.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have a great guest with us today.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Malaysia Harrell is a board-certified psychotherapist, a spiritual transformation coach, award-winning entrepreneur, veteran, keynote speaker, and author who helps women find freedom and fulfillment.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: But really, she is a healer, an unleasher, and a light that leads women back to their true selves so they can live fully and finally.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: As a licensed psychotherapist and board-certified clinical social worker, Malaysia blends clinical expertise, spiritual wisdom, and intuitive guidance to help women overcome their past trauma, heal their hurts, and define their vision for their lives.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Her incomparable coaching guides clients on an intimate, insightful journey to break free from limiting beliefs and expectations and discover lives of authenticity, authenticity, purpose, and bliss.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Extraordinary at walking them through radical transformation.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Malaysia is more than her client's coach, she's their champion.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the show, Malaysia.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: How are you?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Daniel.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: I am amazing and thank you for this opportunity to be with you today.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm very uh happy to speak with you now.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: But t tell me about uh your affiliation with the military um and how long you you were with the military and and that.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I did um I went into the air force um after 9-11.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um that was the day that I knew I I declared I was going in the military because I wanted to serve.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, however, before that, I was in junior ROTC and two years of ROTC in college.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: So one year of Air Force, one year of Army.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I didn't go in initially because it was like, oh my goodness, all my youth years were taken by ROTC.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I wanted to explore some other things and ended up in the military anyways.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so I spent uh I did my residency at Andrews Air Force Base.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's where I started.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then after I finished my residency, I went to North Dakota and then Korea and then Hawaii.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was in the Air Force over seven years.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I remember getting promoted to major, and then I transitioned to another service, um, the United States Public Health Service, which is one of the eight uniform services.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: However, they are noncombatants.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then I did, so I did altogether 20 years and eight months total in uniform.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: So a majority of the time in the Navy uniform, but um a good half of the time in the Air Force.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: So a great opportunity.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: So so in the Air Force and the Navy, what what were your jobs then?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: What did you do?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I was a mental health provider, uh, clinical social worker.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, of course, as you continue to rise in the ranks, you do less and less clinical care, but you have to keep up your clinical, you know, acumen and stay licensed.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had the opportunity to work um some many amazing opportunities to serve.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was the assistant to the Surgeon General of the United States and also the director of addictions medicine for the Department of Defense.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I got to work very closely with the White House and, you know, do a lot of great um things that had a lot of significant impact on the way we experience uh public health and uh mental health services uh for your for our TRICARE benefits, even for veterans.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it's psychotherapy, license uh social work of any kind, um mental health counseling, these are are very challenging professions.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um and a lot of it is because uh, you know, clients present with some really difficult things.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: So so in your time uh in the military, uh aside from at least in the in the Navy and the in the Air Force, what were some of the most challenging uh things you had to work through uh with clients?
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, there were a lot, you know.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, um, as you said, there are significant things that people experience, right?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And some things start from before they even come into service, and you know, things happen while they're in service.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just remember significantly, um, of course, you know, ones that were homicidal and suicidal, just working through those intimately.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then also some of the ones who, you know, what I found was that, you know, veterans, um, active duty members, we use this term resiliency, right?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like a hashtag um word that is highly used.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I want to say, you know, in their resiliency, I've seen some brilliance.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: What people trying to maintain, especially people who had jobs like security forces who were deployed, you know, um, to Afghanistan.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I remember one of my clients coming in and he brought pictures of, you know, the atrocities that he experienced firsthand.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, so just imagine having these deaths occur in front of them and they're bringing in the pictures and they're flooding themselves, you know, trying to, you know, desensitize themselves from the nightmares.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, but I'm just saying, like people do whatever they can to survive and still do their job and show up every day.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was just, you know, really enthralled with, you know, the different things that I saw people do um to to make sure that they stay on this earth and they could continue to serve their country.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's really true.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um I served for for 32 years in the army, and that was um mostly active duty, some army reserve time and stuff, but you know, over that course of the of 32 years, I I first came in in 89, 1989.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we served in so many different kinds of operations.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, right after I came in, uh, we did Desert Shield, Desert Storm, and that was um, you know, uh sort of uh you know mass operations.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: It turned out that the enemy really wasn't a peer or anything, so it was we overwhelmed them, but that was this, you know, force on force kind of thing.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then you know, we got into the war on terror and um, you know, various operations in Iraq and Afghanistan that went on forever and ever and ever, and the totally different in some ways, force on force can be a cleaner kind of war, uh, quote unquote cleaner in the sense that uniform people, uniform people, force on force.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: But when you get into a lot of what soldiers had to deal with in OEF and OIF, some early, like you know, sort of standard clashes, but it didn't take long before um you have all kinds of moral injurious experiences that people had to go through, like you know, witnessing atrocities, sometimes taking part in atrocities, doing things that are not legally wrong, but leave you scarred, like the sniper us to shoot a kid because they're all that kind of stuff.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so so those can be much more difficult, right?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because you don't really know if what you're doing is right or wrong.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: You don't you don't really, you know, there's all kinds of second guessing of yourself and and um being seeing things happening and not being able to do anything about it, you know.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: The Afghanistan withdrawal uh was sort of like publicly made out to be this great, you know, hero heroic thing we did.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: But when you talk to people that were actually there and and saw and had to turn people away, um knowing that they were gonna be violated after they did, like that's that's not a clean thing.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, trying to help people piece themselves back together or move past these things is tough, right?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Very tough, very tough.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you brought up, I mean, you brought up so many just things that just brought me back because I remember when we were withdrawing.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: I believe I believe I was deployed, and that was my last deployment before I had my near-death experience.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I just remember watching it on TV, and it was during the height of COVID.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember watching it on TV.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I experienced it from different ways, but there were a lot of veterans and active duty members who and people, you know, families of these members, and it was like, what was all this for?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just questions of how it was ended and so abruptly and the way it was ended.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: And um, it just made me think about a lot of different things, you know, um, in my career.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, it it it almost triggers some more things for people, especially for people who've experienced so much loss.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: And even for the people who survived, right?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're thinking about um, you know, how they survived and having that survivor's guilt.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was, it was very, it was very challenging just all together, I think.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, we think about how blessed we are, you know, to have the opportunity to have an impact on people who've who've really, you know, served and have have sacrificed a lot of their world and had to come back to a world and experience it so differently.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think people don't understand that, you know.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I you know, it it was very much Vietnam like the the pullout, and then the people that were there in Afghanistan, or yeah, it's particularly Afghanistan, can very much relate to Vietnam veterans because it's a similar kind of experience, like all this years and years of of combat operations only that end up saying, you know, like never mind, we can't do this and just pull out.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: And and the truth is maybe maybe it was the right political decision or whatever.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is not political shows, so we won't get into that.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: But no, but irregardless, still, I mean, you know, um, it's not like we didn't try to achieve some level of victory uh throughout all these years, but right, but anyway, if you've been through this and you've had friends that you lost friends and stuff, like whatever the politicians say is this hollow, you know, because you you have those questions.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing it's interesting too is I work with some Vietnam vets, and I think you find this in any era.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: There are those who deployed who had a lot of combat experiences, um, and they have their own traumas, uh, but they get a little bit of hero um attention, and then there are those in the military who never deployed, and and but so the ones that deployed did a lot of stuff, they have their guilt for their own reasons.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: But then you have some like I'm thinking of a guy in particular, he served for years, it was during Vietnam, uh, but they never let him deploy, and it was because he was so valuable at what he was doing, uh, they didn't want to lose that, and so he has guilt for never having deployed, and and when he introduces himself in a group, like various sort of veteran meetings we might might have, you can tell as he talks about his experience, there's some there's some shame there, uh, because you know he didn't deploy, and I totally get that.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we we treat, you know, in the army, we wear a combat patch on your right shoulder, and I was infantry for years, so we have this badge that we wear, and if you don't have one of those, you get looked down on and stuff, but in reality, we're all serving, we all have a role to play.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so, you know, helping people say it doesn't, you know, but there's this sort of damned if you do and damned if you don't kind of situation of um both groups, those that deployed and did stuff, those that didn't are still carrying guilt and shame for different reasons, you know.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think everybody is carrying something.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: If you've served, you know, you you've seen some things, and um the people who didn't deploy, they had a challenging tool, though, right?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: You're taking up all of the work for the people who are downrange, and it's a lot of responsibility, and then emotionally, right, you're thinking about your comrades and the people that are over there.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: And for people who are medical, we're the people treating everybody, or you know, facilitating the memorial services, you know, helping to facilitate those with, you know, the units and and bringing in mental health.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's, you know, I I pray that people know that no matter where you serve, how you served, you are of tremendous value to our country and even the people who were civilians who served alongside of us, right?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: So we've seen everyone has a role to play, and I just pray that people can give themselves a level of grace while they're going through their own healing journey.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's something we can do for them is is help them.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, my my counseling approach is is basically a narrative counseling approach, and it's like, tell me your story, and then I listen for how they express their story and the guilt and shame that they might be you know implying, and then try to help them work through those things.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um so uh I want to transition a little bit to your own experience uh serving in the military.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, women have it, uh are in many ways more challenging than men.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um there are many things they they have to go through an experience that men have no clue about really.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and so um most women, if not all, um, but I can only I can't say all because I've not interviewed all women, but most women have some pretty traumatic experiences they had to work through um serving as a female in in the uh uniform services.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: So what what were do you have some experiences like that?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: What was your what was your experience like as a service member?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um well I will I want to preface with, you know, I I feel like I was blessed to have the opportunity to serve in the in the capacity that I was able to serve.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I couldn't do it alone.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: So the people who, you know, supported in all these missions, um, I'm I'm just I have so much gratitude and and um you know just just I don't know hope and you know for for all of those experiences because I don't want sometimes the negative ones do outweigh some of those good ones.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so I do want to, you know, really make sure that I am grateful and have a level of gratitude.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, I've experienced personally um a lot of things that were very challenging.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: And um I remember I want to I want to preface two because one is will tell you kind of the transition to where I am now, um, which was my the near-death experience that I had in 2020 after I returned home from deployment.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I wasn't so I want to just also say United States Public Health Service is not Navy.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: We wear Navy uniforms.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and in times of war, we can be declared as part of um the naval, you know.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um we started with the merchant marines um treating them.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it's mostly a medical force.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: And we started with treating the merchant marines under the Surgeon General of the United States.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's where it kind of started, and then they put them in the Navy uniforms.
• 18:48
  unknown: Okay.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so they're not combatants, but um, I remember when I made 06.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um I almost feel, you know, you think, oh, I made it.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like I worked so hard, you know, my whole career to to reach this level.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: So let me stop you there real quick.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: 06 being a colonel in the army or in the navy, it was what was the actual rank?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Captain.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Captain.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one step below Admiral, right?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, one step below admiral.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Just for somebody who's listening.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, right, right, right.
• 19:22
  unknown: Okay.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta be.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was a captain twice.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: I was a captain in the Air Force and I was a captain, Navy rank for the United States Public Health Service.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know how the book that says what you got you here won't get you there?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's so true.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like every rank that you make, it's almost like you're an airman or you know, a private again in that rank.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: You have to prove yourself all over again.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember um I had a civilian um supervisor when I made when I made captain, and um he became very disrespectful to me.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: It was so interesting.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: And um, it was like as long as I was a commander, 05, you know, lieutenant colonel uh equivalent, it was like it was okay.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: But when I made that next range, you know, it was almost like, whoa.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I I'll never forget this.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I won't talk about all the things because there's been a lot, but I remember the day he called me on the phone and he yelled at me and hung up the phone in my face.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, like, what could trigger somebody to be so disrespectful?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: And um, it took everything in me to, you know, keep my bearing and not go down there to his office.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh, I had a life before the military.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, um, could you think, oh, I made it, I I, you know, people are saluting me.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, no, that's what I want people to understand is that it doesn't matter what rank you are, and you've seen that at the highest level.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I can't even, you know, at the higher levels, you've seen the disrespect.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: But but that was interesting to me because I I didn't think that I ever, you know, portrayed a situation where that would be warranted.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I just I I was surprised.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I was disheartened because I had just made, you know, captain as well.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I couldn't understand what that was about.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: But the other thing that was very traumatic was um, so when I came back from deployment, I was at the height of COVID.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: I deployed to the Navajo Nation.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I I was the lead for mental health uh for two medical centers for the entire reservation.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: And um, it was the most desolate area they sent me by myself.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it was interesting because I told someone that and they were like, they didn't send you by yourself.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: I say, yes, they did.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Did they sent me?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was the sole mental health provider.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: So they sent all different mental health providers to different areas, but I was the sole mental health provider for that area.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: And um, while I was there, I had this, I would say an awakening.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: I can't even, I don't, that's the word that I think I can identify with as a human, but it was some sort of spiritual awakening.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was very dark.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was very dangerous as well, um, especially for a woman to be alone.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And um many different what the first time I got there, this man, he had glassy eyes, black eyes like a demon.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I so I knew he was on some sort of substance, was cut he was coming straight to me.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I'm in uniform.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, what do I do?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I I didn't even know.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: I was I was like shocked because I didn't know.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I don't want to have this incident where someone in uniform is, you know, having because I'm gonna be the one that is, you know, no matter what, is gonna be the one shining on that and probably not in a lot nice light.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: I was scared out about, I didn't know.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I have worked in addictions medicine, and you don't when people are on substances, they can do things that you wouldn't even imagine that they could do.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, yeah, I worked and I worked in the prison system on death row before I went in the military.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I I, you know, I was a forensic social worker before.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, wait a minute now, like what do I need to do here?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: It was very scary.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so again, a lot of scary stuff happened while I was there.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then the death toll was so high that was one of the most red zones in the world, probably, because the death per capita was so high in that community.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't have running water in their homes.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was like a third world country.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, I had this, it was almost like this, Daniel.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever been in an experience where you're like, yes, I'm serving my country.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: I came in here.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then you get there and you're like, Am I really served?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is this like, you know, just showing face?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Or am I really doing something?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the part like that was a personal moral when you talk about moral.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was like this morality question for me.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what am I doing?
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then they're telling me their stories that I never heard before.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you heard certain things and you get your cultural training before you go, but I heard stories and things while I was there and spiritual stories that people were telling me.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just like, you know, like what am I and what can I tell them?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but I did what I did and I do what I do, and I um and I and I I felt good about that.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: But when I came home, things started happening, right?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, again, some of this stuff I didn't realize till now when I had a chance to reflect.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: But a couple of weeks or a little while after I got home, I had this dream from my grandmother.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: And my grandmother who raised me, she has now gone beyond.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: And um, she the message that I got was that it was time for me to go with her.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, cool, like I'm good, you know what I mean?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: I've lived a very good life, you know.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: And but of course, I'm married, I have a great life, but I was just like, I was at peace per se.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: And especially after what I had seen over there.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so, anyways, a couple of weeks after, again, I put it on the backup burner.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't think about it.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, okay.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a couple of weeks later, I started having significant pain in my hip.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: And um, Daniel, I know pain.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: I've done bodybuilding, I've um did the I've done marathons all over the world.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, you know, pain is something I understand.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so um this pain though was different.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: It was very different, and I didn't understand it.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was like unlivable pain.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: So one night I get up to go to the bathroom and I couldn't walk.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't wake up my husband, who my army ranger airborne husband, right?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I got this.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: I it I crawled to the bathroom.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I tried, I crawled and got in there, and I'm in the middle of the floor and I'm just crying.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: I can't get up, I can't do anything.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: He hears me, he comes in, he picks me up.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, Malaysia, what's going on?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I can't walk, I'm in pain.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so anyway, I tried to treat myself like most of us do.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: We don't go to the doctor.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: If if if we're going to the doctors, especially while we're active duty, something wrong.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we're not just going.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so went to the doctors a couple times.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I tried to treat it myself.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they did a the um ambulance came one day, brought me to like some medical center.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they took an x-ray, didn't see anything, gave me morphine, sent me home.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, well, if they don't see anything, then I'm good.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'll get over this.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I'm trying to treat it myself.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, ultimately I was hospitalized at Walter Reed Medical Center.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: The premier hospital, right?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: We treat the president there, okay?
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, so most certainly I'm gonna be taken care of here.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: So four days in, four days in, I'm in the hospital and they have all, you know, there's resident, there's residents, there's fellows there, it's a big training facility.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: They have all these people coming in a room with white coats and they're taking notes because they couldn't understand, they couldn't find the source of the pain.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, that you know, and they're asking me, can the residents come in?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, yeah, I was a resident before.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: I understand, you know, let them in.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Let maybe they'll figure out what's going on.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: So four days in, Captain Hurrell, the doctor comes in.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Captain Harrell, we can't find anything.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: We're sending you home today.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, what?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I you know how you're on, I was on the highest level mes, like dilated, and I'm pressing a button for them to come every whatever is the time frame.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, I need like I couldn't even, and and when I was on the mes, the pain was still extreme.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: It was extreme.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: It would just like calm me for a second.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, wait a minute.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: So they're like, okay.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I said, okay, you could euthanize me because you won't be able to deal with this pain.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, get the paperwork.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: So then they say, okay, and we're gonna send in the psychiatrist to evaluate you because you just came back from deployment.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: I said, so am I imagining this?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so at that point, I couldn't even be a patient because I already knew this process.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I did for a living.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Had I said anything that was out of line, they were gonna put me on that mental health side and I would have died.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: So guess what I had?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: They ended up doing a sample from my hip and I had sepsis.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: I would have been gone that day or that week, next couple of days, I would have been dead.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, for those of you who don't know about sepsis, it's a bacterial infection where it basically is so toxic that it shuts all your organs down.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Most people don't recover from it.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Some people never fully recover.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have things that have happened with my body since then.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, some people have had legs removed or limbs removed because of it.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Some people have had to have organ transplants.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Ultimately, I had all these medical conditions as a result of that because I was on so much medication and antibiotics 24-7 for like six to eight weeks that I believe my body went into shock.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had sarcadosis.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: They thought it was cancer, I had Bell's palsy.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: I gained, I was up to 254 pounds.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now imagine being active duty going through all this.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: So if that's not trauma, I don't know what is because they tell you to ask for help.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: And when I finally get hospitalized for the first time in my entire life, you tell me you send in a psychiatrist, would I really want to come and ask for help then?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it's true.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a friend of mine to your last point, and then I want to get into some other things, but she she she had had some both early childhood experiences that were very traumatic, and then as a soldier, some uh at least one sexual assault.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: And now she's married, she has kids, young kids, and she has a husband that's abusive, and so she's really, really struggling.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: And um, this was a couple of years ago.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: A friend of hers who also was in the military said, You need to go see behavioral health, right?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: They'll help you.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: And what happened, of course, behavioral health um kept her for a couple of days, and so because she was honest with them and said that she had considered suicide and so on.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that was that was the worst experience she could have had to her because they kept her from her kids for two days, they wouldn't let her leave.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: She kept saying they lock me up, they lock me up.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um they didn't really solve anything for her.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um but to her, it's like I went to get help and I got put in prison for two days.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I try to explain, you know, they have they have standards they have to meet, they have to do these sort of things.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: But to her, I mean, she didn't matter that that was getting help, was the worst thing.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um just uh you know, so so there are a lot of and then and then and then you if you if you do get help so and of course she had a security clearance.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um this incident as well as some physical things, she was medically retired from the military, um when she was really at the height of her career in many ways.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um and she had a security clearance months later, actually, a couple years later, when it came time to renew, they weren't gonna renew it because she had gotten sought behavioral health.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so it's like seek help, but it probably will end your career if you end up having that's what people hear and think.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so yeah, so um it's really tough.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: We yeah, I just did interviewed uh a police captain who had very similar experiences.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: He uh he had a shoot, it was a it was a quote unquote good shoot in the sense it was a legal shoot.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he did he kept saying over and over I did the right thing, but the moral injury as a result of it led to all kinds of issues um that he wouldn't get help for because it knew he he was worried it would sink his career.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then when he did get help, they fired him anyway, um, for for PTSD.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like we we in this country we have major issues with mental health, and we have systems that are working against each other, and when it comes to mental health, insurance doesn't like to pay.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: So we don't, you know, we have so that sort of makes it even more difficult for someone in your profession because you know there are a lot of people that need help, but there are a lot of reasons why people don't want to seek help, and it's and it's because our systems, uh our institutions, like our our business institutions, our military institutions, our law enforcement institutions, they don't appreciate it.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so his whole take was that we need cops getting help.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Wouldn't we rather have cops on the street that have good mental health than cops that have all this hidden uh anger, resentment, and bitterness going on that could come out at the worst possible times, you know.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: No, you're you're so I mean, that is such that is what we got asked and talked about.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: That was such, you know, the stigma of mental health.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: And what I would say is this, because I because you know, of course, I'm a provider, so I look at the cognitive reframe and everything.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's right.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's good, yeah.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: So what because there are some people who go to mental health.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: I've so when at Andrews, I had to treat, you know, Yankee white.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's the you know, people that work for presidential support.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: So imagine having domestic violence issues and you go you flying with the president, you you know, and so depending on what your job is, and and you know, so what I'm saying is there are people who've stayed in who've gotten mental health, so that it's not a whole, you know, it doesn't happen with everybody.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: But when you have um, and I've had people with top security clearances who've been supported, who've been able to keep theirs.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: There have been people who've had top security who may not have been able to keep theirs.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: It depends on where you are and your level of functioning for the mission, right?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: The mission is first, and it was interesting that we're talking about this because in the Air Force it was service before self and excellence in all you do.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: That was one of the models.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, service before self.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, I understand, like we had to fall into that, but service before self.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not gonna serve myself first and you're gonna put me on that line.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I I don't really you, I don't really go by that ideology anymore.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that education is very important and also, like you said, the way you do things.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: So if she felt like, you know, hey, I'm being hospitalized, would there have been an opportunity?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because guess what?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: The family is a big part of the resource for people that don't decide to take their lives.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: So would it have been helpful?
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, you have to do an evaluation.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's just very temporary.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: You go in for 48 hours, they do a watch, they get a good treatment plan with you, they want to make sure, right, you're safe, whatever is the situation.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: But but I also like to include the family in that treatment plan because that is where that's what brings you over, right?
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: On the side of, hey, I I gotta do this, I have my children.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you do it, there's a way to do everything, and there's a way to say everything too.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, even with the cultural competence and you know, just that level of empathy and compassion.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, if I tell you I have pain, it's like, let's get this psychiatrist in here, it's like, wait a minute now, you know what I mean?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I mean, yeah, I I'm a mental health provider, so I I understood where everything was coming, but I couldn't be a patient at the same time.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: So if you can't be a patient, you're not gonna be able to heal.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't feel true a level of trust, you're not gonna be able to heal.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's not necessarily it's the way you do things too, right?
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: I understand they're systematic.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: And what you said, some things are not covered.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: And is there for all the people who need it, is there even capacity?
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: You can't even get in.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's it's true, it's very true.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's um and there's there's so many nuances.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't want anybody to misunderstand.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: I believe in mental health, I think people should do it.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: My my criticism is with you know, the systems, yeah.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, the system's not designed to absolutely, but it's not there.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: There are like um, there's a behavioral health clinic here in our area, and I had I had been talking to several veterans, and was was getting the and plus I sought therapy myself and wasn't getting the insurance to pay for it, and so on, and and it's really frustrating.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I so there's this behavioral health clinic um nearby, and they and they do a lot of veterans, and and I asked them, I said, I asked them about the insurance piece, and they said they're very, very successful getting insurance to pay for and stuff.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of it has to do with with I mean not just the insurance companies being evil, it has to do with who who's willing to do the work to get it and to get work with insurance companies and build those relationships and find out how they have to do it.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: My particular therapist wasn't willing to do that.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: She said, I just give you a bill you file with insurance insurance company.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: The insurance company never did pay me, and it's probably possible they could have, but I mean, I shouldn't have to pay you and chase down all the paperwork, right?
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then there are other people.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: But look, if it's service connected, you already know what that means.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: So if it's service connected, yeah.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's it's mine wasn't.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: Mine was early childhood connected, so so like you know, but but anyway, uh, like I'm saying, there's a lot of nuances to it.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people have varied experiences, and with the clearance, you know, if if you have people that go to bat for you, like commanders and so on, you know, like with her clearance, I had a chance to write a letter about, you know, basically, yeah, she's not mental health, but while she was doing it, she also worked for great work and all this stuff.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: So so it's not a like uh it's not a foregone conclusion, but you need like lots of people supporting you doing different things, you need people that are willing to go beyond.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we just don't have enough.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there's also the final thing I would say before I move on, because I want to talk about the work you're doing and stuff now, but okay, but there is there is a lot of misper misperceptions about mental health, yeah.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh like assumptions that if you have PTSD, you're you're you're not useful, you can't you can't do work.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of high functioning people with PTSD that are high functioning.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: There are also people with PTSD that are extremely low functioning because there's the level of of of comorbidity with their PTSD is just very high.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a whole range of things.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: But they also often, you know, with you, you need to be able to what what companies need to be able to do is think about hey, this person is a brilliant person, they're veterans, they're gonna do great work, but occasionally they're gonna need a couple of days that may come up out of the blue.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like if somebody has a PTSD, they can get triggered and they can't work for a couple of days.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: We can't just be like, you know, I don't want an employee that can't, you know, grind out.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we we have to accept, you know, that there that there are going to be some accommodations we have to give them, yeah, and that it's worth it to do it, you know, and a lot of people and employee uh employers, they don't want that, they don't want difficulties and challenges.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: They they're happy to like be pro-veteran, but but not ones that that have issues, you know what I mean?
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it is so there's a whole lot of education that needs to go on and so on.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm kind of on my soapbox, and I apologize for that.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, this isn't a soapbox, this is great because we need the advocacy, we need your voice for the voiceless.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: Not a lot of people are talking about this.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that, and we'll talk about what I do, but one of the things I came up with for my mental health and wellness business is being able to work with employers to provide the services on site.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: So not necessarily literally on site to be virtual, but if you provide these services, and again, you when you say to deal with it, there's people who didn't serve that you that got accommodated.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right, exactly right.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'd rather have you know some highly trained leaders in their field who are gonna get the job done.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, so so I don't want to just like separate, but the veterans and what their resources that would be helpful to help them thrive in those environments are unique.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so we can come in and help you provide those resources to them in-house.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you remember everything was on base, remember?
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: So you're at your duty station, you go to the hospitals down the road on the same facility.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you gotta go to different facilities if you need specialty care and you're on a smaller base, but but you you get the point.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, true.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: So if that close proximity is there, number one, you know that I care about you, right?
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: That I'm gonna have these resources, like kind of like EAP, but however, specifically for veterans, that can bring in that different nuance because veterans don't want to be babied either.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: And some of them are not gonna tell you they need support.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: They're very proud and they're not gonna tell you that.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm glad that you are um talking about that.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the the medical system in general, not Even for is flawed.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's not set up to accommodate what is actually needed.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes we need to ask the veterans what they need.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody tell you need this.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm going to tell you, let me tell you what I need.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then let's adapt the resources to that.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because even if I put this out there and it's not what you want, then I'm just wasting my time.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I so yeah, I love that we're having this conversation.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we need more of it, you know, with our, you know, with the leaders and the politicians and the people who are in this space to write policy.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, there's a different nonprofits that are lobbyists and do that as well.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm glad that you're in the space and you're saying, you know what, I can write a letter.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: I could have this person work for me intimately and I can, you know, and and get them back on a therapeutic regimen.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: But one thing I will also say to for the veteran community and their families is sometimes we believe that we have to go into a job and do different things because we need to make money, which is partially true.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: But when you go in an, you know how they say you can't heal in an environment that got you sick.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: So if you go in this low-level environment, not I don't want to say low level, I don't want to use that term.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: But what I mean is if you're used to operating up here and you're just at a desk all day taking calls, like that, you you may not be in alignment with that type of work.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: So doing something that helps, try to find something that helps you thrive.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's gonna help you on your healing journey too.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: When you feel like you're not being utilized, you you were running, you know, brigades and all the, and then you're here and you're like, you know, uh count in cheap.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of weird.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're trying to.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: I saw a meme the other day, and I actually reposted in my stories, and someone said something about, you know, this is what veterans, you know, fear or veteran, and the person was on a Zoom call and they had this headset, and someone was like, you know, just talking nonsense on the phone, and it was just so funny.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, that's real, that's really how we feel, right?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's it's that's very true.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: When I when I first retired, I tried uh teaching eighth grade math.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: What a disaster.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was I mean I retired as sergeant major.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and but I but I wasn't a typical like when you think of a sergeant major, you know, rough, gruff, all that stuff.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: I was I was, you know, um not like that.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway so so they had this impression, hey, this sergeant major's gonna come in here and straighten up all these kids.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's a whole lot of difference between eighth graders who might be the worst the worst kind of student in the world because they want to be a high school, they're ready, they think they're ready to to be adults, do whatever they want, right?
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: They don't really care.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they're they you can't like you know, in sixth, seventh grade, I watched the teachers, they had them really under control by eighth grade.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: They were they were just excuse me, but anyway, um wow, that's but that's amazing that you did that.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: I could have I I tried it, but I it's just it wasn't me at all.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't a fit for me.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now I will say that there were some great moments.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: Some kids that were that came into the thought I could never learn math.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um they they were learning math.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean kids that were on a fourth grade level, uh, they were eighth graders, but they were on like a fourth grade level for math.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: After a few weeks, they were they were starting to really turn around.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: So the the teaching the math, I was good at the behavioral stuff, was where I really struggled.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: The other teachers, eighth grade teachers, were also struggling with behavioral stuff in their students.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's right, but not to the level I was because I was a rookie, I was brand new, but but you know, and I'm not saying I couldn't have learned how, but it was just like mentally, I was like, this is not what I thought it was gonna be.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was just to make money, um, because I wasn't sure how much disability I was gonna get.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so I took a job that I knew at least I'll get this, and yeah, whatever.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: Once I found out I was getting the 100% and I knew what the disability was, I was like, I can't I'm not doing this anymore because I don't know.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I just the the level of anxiety I had every day was so high.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like I never experienced even even in even at war, I never experienced that level of anxiety, and it was because I was a fish completely out of water, you know.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: I was just totally unprepared, not trained, just anyway.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: So what all that all that to like illustrate it can't be just about money, it has to be something that's that's right.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: You now you may you may retire from the military, you might not go straight to like vice president of something, even if you were a colonel or whatever, but you know, something that you that you feel like you're control you're giving, you know, God gives you gives us all these gifts, that's right, and he expects us to use them to repair the world.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're if you're not doing that, and you don't feel like even if you don't think in those terms, if you don't feel like you're you're able to really use your the best that you are in some way, irregardless of the money, now you gotta make people have to make money, but yeah, at least working towards, and that's why a lot of people get into coaching, is because you know they're able to um, but I I before we run out of time, I want to make sure that I spend a good enough time talking about what you are doing now, how are you helping people now?
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: What what's your business?
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us all about that.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so and this has been such an enlightening conversation.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I really appreciate it.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I work with high achieving primarily for the coaching space, spiritual transformation, um, because I believe that people need to be in alignment with their divine assignment.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's when it doesn't feel like work.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: You will never work a day in your life.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I work primarily on a on a coaching level with high achieving women who are very successful as far as what the world deems successful, but they are completely empty inside and you know, they're like crying in the car, you know, before they go to work and they're in these high-level leadership positions.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're hiding in plain sight.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so I help them to get in alignment, you know, and get clarity and to flourish and to where their gifts lie.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: Some people don't realize what they are or they have forgotten what they are.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: They knew it as a child, as a youth, they love to do something.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: But again, they think, oh, I have to, I need this money, so I have to do this.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've helped a lot of women transition from, you know, doing whatever they were doing.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: Some people are in entrepreneurship.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_01: They may have had a a uh, I have one client had a brick and mortar, and she closed that down and now um went into the cybersecurity space, and she's thriving with that.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I've helped a lot of people kind of transform and transition into where they are actually supposed to be, and that helps them on their healing journey.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I own a mental health and wellness business.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we provide those solutions for um individuals, groups, and specifically veterans as well.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I have a nonprofit that um it's called the Malaysia Harel Foundation.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: My uh for-profit is Blissful Life Consulting.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so we provide both of these services to individuals, groups, and corporate wellness as well.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: But in the nonprofit, we provide these services to veteran women specifically because their needs are so unique in other underrepresented populations.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I thrive doing that because I know where the need is.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: And when I feel like I'm using my gifts for what, you know, I've been called to do.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it doesn't feel like, I mean, of course, you have challenges being an entrepreneur, but it doesn't feel hard.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't feel like you're banging your head up against the wall.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, I get to speak all over the world.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm about to go speak in the Netherlands uh the end of February, um, and you know, work and get called for different um panels and speaking engagements.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to speak for an organization that's speaking for the NFL Wives next week uh for Super Bowl week in California.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I just love, I just love, and then I get to meet people like you who are making a huge impact in this world uh one day at a time, one moment at a time, and that synergy just helps to show spread more light, you know, on these issues.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: So and I see your little doggy.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a cat, actually.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little oh, yeah, but he go he went by so fast.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_00: I have a couple of cats.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: I love cats.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: I like dogs too, but I I don't like them in my house.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_02: So okay.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, oh, I appreciate that.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um you're doing a lot.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um the the one question I want to ask before we kind of close things down is in the in the case you talk about women not they're they're in leadership positions, they're probably making money in a lot of cases.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: Is it is it the the main issue for most of them that they're just not doing what they would love to do?
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: Is that is that the case with most of them?
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: So once they or or are there other issues that um like relationship things or you know in your coaching people?
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um there are many different um aspects to different people depending on where they are, but one of the unique one of the big things that I see is that these women wear a mask, and so they want the world to believe that they're this successful mogul, and they don't want to face whatever it is that they need to heal.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's some sort of pain, there's some sort of, so what happens is, you know, they the world sees them as this, right?
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: So they get that form of validation maybe that they didn't get from somewhere else, and they don't want to dig deep into that pain and acknowledge it.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so they don't, they they keep themselves on fight or flight and they keep going so they don't have to acknowledge what that pain is.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: But what usually happens is they start breaking down so their bodies, they start having headaches, whatever starts to happen that is not allowing them to be in fight or flight forever.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: Your body can't operate that way forever.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think you know, I I think a lot of us men too are prone to this, um you know, avoiding things.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I mean you you find people in bad marriages for years, and as bad as their marriage might be, they're more afraid of the unknown, yeah, and that sort of thing.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're thinking about visiting, revisiting these issues, deep-seated things, um you know that's scary in itself because of the triggering process.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's as a provider, right?
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's important to be super sensitive because you don't want to crack somebody open, expose them, and then not be able to help them with it.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: You've just made their life so much worse.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I think your your you know, the fact that you have the psychotherapy skills and years of experience, so this is beyond just this is not just coaching, like you have the whole the whole the whole gamut, you're fully trained to dig as deep as people are willing to dig, right, to get to their their source of pain and stuff, and that's really commendable.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and um, you know, I'm glad you're doing it that because um you know we we really we want people to be um functioning at their best.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: That that's how the world becomes a great place, is when everyone is functioning at the best.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_00: From my you know, religious perspective, uh, we all feel a unique place in the world, and we're uniquely designed for that.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that's right.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it so so so the world is missing something.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: We're not just billions of people, right?
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_00: Don't matter.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: The world is missing something when people that's right, it's a puzzle.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and your body tells a tale, and your mind tells a tale, and your lack of sleep tells a tale.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's right, it's not like we're not given clues, it's that's right.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: Are we willing to do the work?
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and the other thing is too, like it takes discipline, right?
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: It does.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: You're coaching people, you give them modalities, but it's not you're not waving a magic wand at people, right?
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: They have to they have to take some disciplined steps to begin to recreate themselves, right?
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the just acknowledging.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: So most people don't acknowledge it, they just know they you know, hey, I gotta make a change.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: They don't they don't may not know exactly what.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so just deep digging down and getting clarity on that, I think is very, very important.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so how do people get in touch with you if they want, if they need help, they want help, they want to contact you and and uh work with you.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: What how do they get to get in touch with you?
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so if people want to transform their personal life and their business, they can get in touch with me uh on at info at MalaysiaHorel.com and also MalaysiaHorel.com and um core speaking engagements.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm on most social media platforms, um, primarily Instagram, Malaysia H Horel.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just look forward to connecting with you know everyone who's out there.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure you're following me.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I do have a YouTube channel as well.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we'll make sure that in the show notes for this, we'll put your links and stuff and uh um share this video and all so you can share it on your your YouTube, your social media, you can do that because we're we want to get this kind of information to the broadest possible audience.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure people know that you're a resource for them.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: So uh Belasia, it's been great having you on the show.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it very much, and um, you know, um I I wish the best for you, your family, and and the the customers and the patients that you serve.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Daniel.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: It was truly my pleasure, and I wish you all the best as well.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.