Latest / New Worlder / Episode #116: Elspeth Hay

Transcript

Episode #116: Elspeth Hay · New Worlder

• 0:00
  This is the New Order Podcast,
• 0:02
  and I am one of your hosts,
• 0:03
  Nicholas Gill.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Co-host Juliana Duque will be joining shortly.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Today we are speaking with Elspeth Hay.
• 0:11
  She is the author of the new book,
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  Feed Us With Trees,
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  Nuts,
• 0:15
  and the Future of Food.
• 0:16
  The book helps us understand how many in Western society lost
• 0:21
  their relationship to
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: nut-producing trees.
• 0:24
  It explains how integral trees such as oaks,
• 0:27
  chestnuts,
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  black walnuts,
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  and hazelnuts
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  are to forest ecosystems and how their nuts were once a staple
• 0:34
  in north american
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  diets hay lives on cape cod and has been reporting on food in
• 0:40
  the environment for
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  the past 15 years with the local food report a segment that has
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  aired on a regional
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  new england npr station despite growing up on a farm in maine
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  it was a revelation
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  when she found out that acorns were actually edible and it sent
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  her down a rabbit
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  SPEAKER_00: hole of curiosity that reshaped her understanding of food production,
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  SPEAKER_00: not to mention how she understands the world.
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  SPEAKER_00: In our conversation,
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  we talk about the things that get in the way of returning trees
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  and tree nuts into
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  SPEAKER_00: our food supply.
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  So things like land rights or a focus on yields that do not
• 1:16
  account for external cost.
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  SPEAKER_00: Coincidentally, I have been on a tree nut
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  SPEAKER_00: rabbit hole myself for the past few years.
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  SPEAKER_00: It started with the chestnut trees I have in my land,
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  which dropped so many nuts each year that I don't always know
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  what to do with them.
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  SPEAKER_00: Chestnuts have become a part of my seasonal diet.
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  I eat them all the time now,
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  and I've even planted a few hazelnut trees as well.
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  Meanwhile,
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  I've been researching Brazil nuts for the book I'm working on
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  in the Amazon.
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  SPEAKER_00: In some communities I have visited, these nuts remain a staple food.
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  So the possibilities of how we can shift what we eat towards
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  more sustainable
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  SPEAKER_00: solutions are,
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  SPEAKER_00: in fact,
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  SPEAKER_00: a reality.
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  SPEAKER_00: Elspeth's book is extremely helpful.
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  She writes and talks about polyculture and how the yields of
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  nut trees paired with
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  other complementary crops are really not that far off from the
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  amount of food
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  SPEAKER_00: produced in industrial agriculture,
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  SPEAKER_00: with few or none of the negative external factors.
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  SPEAKER_00: Again, the book is Feed Us With Trees, Nuts, and the Future of Food.
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  And I highly recommend you pick up a copy if you want to
• 2:28
  understand how we can feed
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: the world at peak population without destroying it.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't subscribed to my newsletter,
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: just go to newworlder.com or search for New Worlder on Substack.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's free to subscribe.
• 2:43
  The paid subscribers get access to all of the content and the
• 2:46
  back archives.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Again, that's newworlder.com.
• 2:50
  Also,
• 2:50
  look for my books,
• 2:52
  such as the Latin American Cookbook at small bookstores
• 2:55
  everywhere.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Also, check out the New Worlder YouTube channel.
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  We have full episodes there,
• 3:00
  including this one,
• 3:02
  as well as some clips and other video content.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Just go to youtube.com slash newworlder.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: And as always, please subscribe, like us, and share this episode.
• 3:14
  It really helps this podcast get listened to and allows us to
• 3:17
  continue doing it.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you and enjoy the show.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Elspeth.
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  SPEAKER_00: How are you?
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  SPEAKER_02: I'm doing great.
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  SPEAKER_02: How are you?
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  SPEAKER_02: Hi, Elspeth.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it's really nice to speak with you.
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  I really enjoyed reading your book,
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  Feed Us with Trees,
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  Nuts and the Future of Food.
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  SPEAKER_00: I have it right here.
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  SPEAKER_00: I've been reading it a lot for the last month.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I've been really interested in tree nuts over the past few years,
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  SPEAKER_00: just in my own work,
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  SPEAKER_00: but also my personal life.
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  So your book just kind of came along right at the perfect time
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  for my own interest.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I'm learning a lot.
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  SPEAKER_00: Can you tell me how and why you first started thinking about tree nuts?
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_02: I'm a journalist on Cape Cod,
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  and I've been reporting on food and the environment for our
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  local NPR station for
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  SPEAKER_02: about 15 years.
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  And in 2019,
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  a friend sent me a TEDx talk by a woman named Marcy Mayer,
• 4:57
  who's in Greece.
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  and she calls herself an acorn ambassador and said that um
• 5:04
  acorns are edible which
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  i did not know and that they're one of our oldest human foods
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  and a staple food in
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  a lot of places over the past 12 000 years and i didn't know
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  any of this and i live
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  in this giant oak forest that's all protected as part of the
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  cape cod national
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  seashore and so suddenly the woods around me which i'd always
• 5:24
  seen as a bit of an
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  SPEAKER_02: impediment to food production
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  I started looking at in a new way and I went pretty far down
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  the tree nut rabbit
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  SPEAKER_02: hole pretty quickly.
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  SPEAKER_00: So what did you do?
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  Did you just start gathering acorns and then did you know what
• 5:40
  to do with them once
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  SPEAKER_00: you found them?
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  SPEAKER_02: No, I did not know what to do.
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  SPEAKER_02: I did start picking up acorns.
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  I started reading a lot too about different cultures that
• 5:51
  either still eat acorns
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  SPEAKER_02: or had in the past.
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  SPEAKER_02: And from there started branching out,
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  SPEAKER_02: realizing there were other nuts too that had been staple crops,
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  SPEAKER_02: really like everyday foods like corn or wheat or rice.
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  SPEAKER_02: And
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  SPEAKER_02: That was pretty surprising to me.
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  SPEAKER_02: And at first I thought,
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  SPEAKER_02: oh,
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  this must have been something they did in hilly areas where row
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  crop agriculture
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  SPEAKER_02: wasn't such an option.
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  SPEAKER_02: But the more I learned,
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  SPEAKER_02: the more I realized,
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  SPEAKER_02: no,
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  this was widespread in most cultures across the northern
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  hemisphere until pretty
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  SPEAKER_02: recently.
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  and as my mom always likes to say i never stopped asking why
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  she's i've been doing
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  that since i was about three so then i was like well why like
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  why would we stop
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  eating this food that is super abundant so yeah i kind of just
• 6:44
  kept following that
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  SPEAKER_00: so how important were tree nuts in north america prior to you know 1492
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  SPEAKER_02: Well, it depends on where you are.
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  SPEAKER_02: Um,
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  SPEAKER_02: cause there are so many different,
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  SPEAKER_02: uh,
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  SPEAKER_02: native communities all over present day United States,
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  SPEAKER_02: but it ranges from in some areas,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: as much made up as much as 50% of some people's diets.
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  SPEAKER_02: Um,
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  SPEAKER_02: acorn,
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  SPEAKER_02: this sort of like acorn soup,
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  SPEAKER_02: um,
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  SPEAKER_02: has been a traditional dish,
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  SPEAKER_02: uh,
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  SPEAKER_02: on the West coast in the present day,
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  SPEAKER_02: California area for a long time for a lot of people.
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  SPEAKER_02: Um,
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  SPEAKER_02: And then in other areas,
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  SPEAKER_02: there have been different uses like you can make acorns into flour,
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  SPEAKER_02: you can make them into starch,
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  SPEAKER_02: you can make them into oil,
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  which I was really surprised by an oil that's like really
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  similar chemically to
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  SPEAKER_02: olive oil.
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  SPEAKER_02: And this man in the 1950s,
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  SPEAKER_02: I want to say his name was Harold Driver,
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  SPEAKER_02: made this pretty cool map of North America.
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  with like all the different ways that acorns were used in
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  different places.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so some places they were like processed with lye,
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  SPEAKER_02: similar to corn externalization and use that way.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: And then other places, flour.
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  SPEAKER_02: So like it depends on where you are,
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  but anywhere from like kind of a minor food to almost half of
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  someone's diet.
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  SPEAKER_02: So a big range.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's crazy.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's like,
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  I kind of started going down this tree nut wormhole myself
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  because I have chestnut
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  SPEAKER_00: trees in my yard.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like I moved to this house a few years ago and suddenly I have,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: chestnuts,
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  SPEAKER_00: a ton of them every year,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: like from three trees and it's,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's a ton of food from these three trees.
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  And it's like,
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  I,
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  I collect them and it's like,
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  I can't even eat them all.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like I give them away or I,
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  SPEAKER_00: last year I sold some just because I had so many like,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I started digging into like,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: what do I do with chestnuts and the side of that?
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  SPEAKER_00: And like, why aren't people eating chestnuts?
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  SPEAKER_00: This, this, you know, tree crop that's kind of everywhere where I live.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, I learned about the blight, uh,
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  you know,
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  of the 1900s,
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  late 1900s that kind of wiped out the American chestnut trees.
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  But I started reading before that and just understanding how
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  important at least
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  SPEAKER_00: chestnuts were on the kind of East Coast to our,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: food system.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it was, it's just crazy how much they supplemented our diet.
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  And I know acorns kind of did the same in other parts of the
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  country as well.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
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  I spent some time in Appalachia when I was researching the book
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  because I feel
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  SPEAKER_02: like,
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  SPEAKER_02: especially in the East here,
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  that chestnut culture and the chestnut economy that really
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  existed in a lot of
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  SPEAKER_02: areas,
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  SPEAKER_02: especially in the mountains,
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  SPEAKER_02: was really present until quite recently.
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  SPEAKER_02: So it seemed like the most,
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  SPEAKER_02: the closest historical connection,
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  SPEAKER_02: at least in the East,
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  SPEAKER_02: to this abundance that we had once been tapped into.
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  SPEAKER_02: It was pretty interesting being down there.
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  SPEAKER_02: I went around to the historian, Ralph Lutz, and he took me
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  to some general stores where they had these old ledgers that
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  documented the
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  chestnut trade and in some of these places collecting chestnuts
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  so going out into
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  the woods picking up chestnuts and bringing them into these
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  little general stores
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  which were kind of like scattered at the same distance as post
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  offices so like
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  SPEAKER_02: every little community had these stores and
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  SPEAKER_02: In some areas,
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  SPEAKER_02: when he looked at the records,
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  SPEAKER_02: it was making up as much as a third to half of people's income,
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  SPEAKER_02: at least for the store.
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  So like in terms of when they would go in and purchase,
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  everything was done on credit.
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  SPEAKER_02: Right.
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  SPEAKER_02: So there'd be this ledger.
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  showing what they had bought and then on the other side things
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  they had brought in
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  and they brought in eggs and butter and whatever else was extra
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  but it was like
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  until september when the nuts started falling they were nowhere
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  near close to
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  making up their debt and then all of a sudden it was like the
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  chestnuts and the
• 10:58
  chinkapins which are a smaller cousin of the american chestnut
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  they would start
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  SPEAKER_02: coming and they would
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  pay off like half of their annual debt in a few weeks from
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  bringing in these nuts
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  and in that area where i was which was like sort of
• 11:13
  southwestern virginia um the
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  blight the chestnut blight that killed the trees and the great
• 11:19
  depression happened
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  SPEAKER_02: at the same time
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  SPEAKER_02: And one of the women I talked to said that like here for them,
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: the great depression had nothing to do with stocks and all,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: no one there was really involved in the stock market.
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  It was about the trees and the death of those trees and this
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  just total collapse of
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  SPEAKER_02: a way of life.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's really crazy to think about how much we relied on these forest,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: just trees and nuts for so long.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then it's just totally been displaced and, you know,
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  decades and you know just that connection has been broken and i
• 11:56
  don't really know
• 11:57
  what it's been replaced by just like total shit you know just
• 12:01
  like cheap beef and
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  SPEAKER_00: you know whatever else and it's it's really it's really sad
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it is really sad.
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  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, a lot of it is pretty systemic.
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  When I started looking at the history,
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  it was pretty intentional in some places.
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  SPEAKER_02: You know,
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  SPEAKER_02: the chestnut blight was sort of an outlier in a lot of ways,
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  SPEAKER_02: because when the US government first started sending
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: basically settler soldiers westward across the continent,
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  one of the first things that they did in almost every place
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  they went was start
• 12:38
  destroying indigenous food systems pretty systemically and very
• 12:44
  intentionally to
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: try to control people and to try to gain control of the land.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: And the history was really confusing when I started reading it because
• 12:56
  these early Euro-American arrivals would get there and comment
• 13:00
  on the incredible
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: abundance of these food systems.
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  SPEAKER_02: Like salmon's so thick,
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: you can walk across them,
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  SPEAKER_02: trees raining these nuts,
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: geese,
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: you couldn't even see the sky.
• 13:12
  And then within like a decade,
• 13:15
  as soon as that land was desired by Euro-American people,
• 13:18
  colonizers it was like oh these people don't know anything
• 13:22
  about growing food um
• 13:24
  you know they're idiots when it comes to food production it's
• 13:26
  like whoa wait what's
• 13:28
  going on here um and so there was this attempt to really paint
• 13:33
  these trees as an
• 13:35
  insignificant food source as a way of uh controlling the land
• 13:41
  and taking the land
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: and i think that's
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's something that we don't talk about a lot in public school history,
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: but that feed fight,
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: which is a term one historian I read called it,
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: was very systematic and involved the American government.
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  SPEAKER_02: Even if you were a Euro-American settler,
• 14:03
  you had to farm the land with row crops for five years to get
• 14:06
  title to the land.
• 14:08
  There was this very systemic push for a very specific type of
• 14:12
  food production.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: Now we're
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: you know, we're seeing the legacy of that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Growing up,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: you read all these books,
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: just in grade school about,
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: the brave settlers and colonists that,
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: like all the hardships they face going across the land and,
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: and...
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: and trying to start a farm and,
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:37
  doing all these things and like all the answers were right in
• 14:40
  their face and they
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: were just kind of like destroying everything right in front of us.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: And we still,
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: we're still getting this literature,
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: this little house on the prairie crap that,
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: that is just like,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: it's so bizarre that,
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: and I don't know about the school system now if we're having much hope,
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: what's going on with the Department of Education in this moment.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like, Jesus Christ, like, can't we teach our kids something?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: Something useful?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: when I started digging through all this,
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: I was in this moment in my life where I had this like,
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: sort of realization about the power of story,
• 15:29
  which is ironic because I've been a journalist for a while and
• 15:32
  you would think I
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: already believed in the power of story.
• 15:35
  But I had this thing that happened with my back where I was in
• 15:39
  a lot of back pain.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: My mom had always had a bad back and I just assumed,
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: or I believed that like,
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: I just had a bad back too.
• 15:46
  And that was something that had been handed down to me and it
• 15:48
  was genetic and there
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: wasn't much I could do about it.
• 15:52
  And I was going to get surgery and the surgery place sent me to
• 15:55
  this very specific PT place.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: And they said like, you have to try this PT before you do anything else.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, okay, fine.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'd done PT before, but I was like, it's not going to work.
• 16:06
  And this guy was like,
• 16:07
  he sat me down and he was like,
• 16:09
  there's nothing wrong with your back.
• 16:11
  The only thing that's wrong with your back is that you think
• 16:13
  there's something
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: wrong with your back.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: And he convinced me, he told me a new story.
• 16:17
  And within a couple of weeks I was doing all this stuff that
• 16:21
  I'd always been afraid to do.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: My back did not hurt anymore.
• 16:24
  And it was right around the same time as I was learning some of
• 16:27
  this tree nut stuff.
• 16:28
  And I got really interested in the way that the stories that
• 16:33
  we've absorbed as kids
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: are sort of controlling our ideas about what's possible and,
• 16:40
  and sort of informing our understanding of the world around us
• 16:45
  in these almost
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: invisible ways.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: my whole life,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: there'd been this food raining down in my house that like I hadn't seen.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so I started wondering like, what else am I missing?
• 16:55
  Like,
• 16:56
  what else am I not understanding about the stories around food
• 17:00
  that I grew up with?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so I started finding all these,
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 17:06
  I started kind of looking back at the books that I loved as a
• 17:09
  kid and finding all
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: these inconsistencies.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you're talking about the settlers moving west.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I had an American Girl doll,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: which I don't know,
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: other girls my age,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure there's some of you out there listening.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: I was just obsessed with this doll, Kirsten Larson.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: And she was a Swedish immigrant who came to the U.S.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, she's totally fictional.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: came to the US in the 1850s.
• 17:33
  But the whole story in one part is about her friendship with
• 17:37
  this indigenous girl
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: from a imaginary unnamed tribe named Singing Bird.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: And Singing Bird leaves partway through the book.
• 17:46
  And it basically says like her people are going west because
• 17:49
  there's not good
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: hunting anymore,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: not enough food,
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: too many people on the land.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I started examining some of those stories and it was like,
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: Every story I grew up with had some version of that,
• 18:02
  of like hunting and gathering is only possible for small groups
• 18:06
  of people on large
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: tracts of land.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: And when things get more populated,
• 18:11
  we have to become farmers and we have to do these sort of
• 18:14
  monoculture row crops
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: because that's how you produce more food.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: And that is not true.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like, that's not true at all.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: That is a story.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I ended up really picking that one apart in the book.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: But it just, it started to make me question everything.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: Because I was like, wow, all these things are just stories.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: They're assumptions that I grew up with and have never understood.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: really questioned because I thought they were facts.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that's been an interesting process of unlearning and relearning.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: I was fed part of the work you have done is,
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: and the thinking,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: it goes beyond the agricultural side,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: which is a great part of it,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: but it has to do with,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: it has so many layers,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like the spiritual, the psychological,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: the environmental,
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: the philosophical,
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: and it's so connected with history,
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: your background,
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: your legacy,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: your ancestors,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: people ancestors.
• 19:15
  How,
• 19:16
  for people that is not familiar with this,
• 19:18
  how can you layer that for us?
• 19:21
  So how do you express all this complex system in your
• 19:26
  educational work,
• 19:27
  in the book,
• 19:28
  so that
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe people can be practical about it,
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: but they understand it goes beyond just planting or replanting,
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't understand that cosmos,
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: then the whole thing in a way is missing the point,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, very much so.
• 19:47
  When I was writing the book and sort of learning about people
• 19:51
  who are planting
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: these trees now,
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: I noticed that
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: There were different approaches.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 19:58
  some people were basically trying to recreate the row crop
• 20:01
  system that we have just
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: with these tree species,
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: spraying for pesticides,
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: doing a monoculture of chestnuts or whatever it is.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then other people had these real polycultures going,
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: these really layered systems where they were
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: thinking a little more holistically, a little more big picture.
• 20:23
  And so as I kind of followed this history,
• 20:27
  I just kept wondering,
• 20:29
  you know,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: how did we get to where we are?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: Because I feel like if we don't understand that,
• 20:35
  we're just gonna do the same thing we've done with the rest of
• 20:39
  industrial farming
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: with these tree species.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: And that doesn't really represent true change to me.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: it's a bit of an improvement,
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: I guess,
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: on like a carbon soil level,
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: but on a systemic biodiversity,
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: cultural,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: colonial healing level,
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: like it's not really doing that much.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so I just kept going back.
• 21:02
  I kept going further back in the history until I could really
• 21:05
  figure out the source
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: of the rupture.
• 21:09
  And to me,
• 21:09
  I have a lot of English,
• 21:12
  German and French ancestry,
• 21:14
  but mostly English.
• 21:15
  And I learned this history that I didn't know about,
• 21:20
  about the enclosures movement in England.
• 21:23
  which was sort of this internal colonization of the country
• 21:26
  that happened before
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: people like my ancestors migrated to North America.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like that is really this missing piece of the conversation.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: along the way with some of this work,
• 21:41
  I got to know an indigenous medicine man and cultural biologist
• 21:45
  named Ron Reed,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: who's Kurok.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: He's in present day California in the northern part.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: And his people have relied on acorns since time immemorial.
• 21:54
  And they have a really sort of complex series of ecological and
• 22:01
  spiritual beliefs
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: that all come together around tending these oak ecosystems.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: And they call themselves fix the world people.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: And every time after I talked to Ron,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: I would just be like,
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: I don't understand why are they fix the world people and my people are
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: just these destroyers, destroying everything in our path ecologically.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: How do we get to this point?
• 22:28
  And when I started learning about basically this internal
• 22:31
  colonization of England
• 22:33
  and the British Isles that happened before that colonization
• 22:36
  moved outwards and
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: started perpetuating that trauma in other places,
• 22:42
  I was always told that my ancestors came here because it was a
• 22:44
  land of opportunity,
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: That was the story that I learned as a kid.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: And really most people who came here,
• 22:50
  about 25% of people came here because they wanted to and 75%
• 22:56
  from that early
• 22:57
  English migration came because they were forced off their own
• 23:00
  land and separated
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: from their own woodland ecosystems during this enclosure process.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's this whole history that we don't talk about.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I think if we don't talk about it, we can't heal it.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: We can't,
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: we can't start mending those relationships,
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: both with the other people who were already here before us,
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: with indigenous people here and with
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: African-American people whose lineage involves people who were enslaved.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I just think that it sounds like,
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: there's a lot to throw into a book about tree nuts.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: But as I kept going,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: it was like,
• 23:39
  I really can't tell this story without grappling with these
• 23:43
  questions because
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: they're really connected because it's about a relationship with a place.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 23:50
  If you don't understand how you got to that place and what
• 23:53
  human relationships led
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: you to that,
• 23:54
  you're not going to be able to deal with the ecological
• 23:57
  relationships that you're
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: trying to repair.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: And connected with that, that's great.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: Connected with that,
• 24:04
  how would you define a local food system for people that are
• 24:08
  not necessarily
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: familiar with that,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: with that idea,
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: that approach?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, people have different definitions.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know, some people limit it to 10 miles or 100 miles or a watershed.
• 24:21
  I think that one thing that has really stuck out for me in
• 24:27
  terms of defining a
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: local food system,
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: the more I've been thinking about these tree nuts,
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: is this theme of keystone species.
• 24:35
  So as I started learning about oak trees and their history as a
• 24:39
  food source,
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: they're also a keystone species.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: So they're a species that's incredibly important ecologically,
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: and so are a lot of these other nut trees.
• 24:51
  And so they take care of their ecosystems in a way that not
• 24:55
  every species can.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: They host a lot of insect life.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: That insect life in turn works its way up the food web.
• 25:01
  So they're as important to their ecosystems as a keystone in
• 25:05
  the Roman arch.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's why they're called that.
• 25:08
  And the more I've thought about like,
• 25:09
  well,
• 25:10
  what can we do to localize food production?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: And what does a local food system really look like?
• 25:15
  I think any successful local food system on the ecological
• 25:18
  level has to be centered
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: in some way on these keystone species.
• 25:25
  And that might mean,
• 25:26
  you know,
• 25:27
  animals are eating the food from these keystone species.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't necessarily have to mean it's like your top human food.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: But
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: through the process of this book,
• 25:37
  I've been talking to people all over and I've been getting that
• 25:39
  question a lot
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: about how do we relocalize food?
• 25:42
  And I think it starts with getting into relationship with these
• 25:46
  keystone species,
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: whatever they are in your area.
• 25:48
  It might not be an oak tree if you're in the southern
• 25:50
  hemisphere or somewhere else,
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: but their oaks are like the top.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: life support genus in, I think, 84% of North American counties.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: So in a lot of places around here, it's a good place to start.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: And if you start with that big relationship,
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: it kind of,
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: then you learn what other species are in relationship with oaks and other
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: keystones.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: And you can kind of build on that, if that makes sense.
• 26:16
  If you understand that,
• 26:18
  then you can follow the logic and work around that in a way
• 26:21
  that
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think I used to think of it in terms of the miles,
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: and now I feel like I'm more focused on,
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 26:30
  just get to know these species that are here and then figure
• 26:33
  out how to work with
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: them.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a different mindset, right?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:38
  I was really pleased in the book where you talk a lot about
• 26:42
  yields because,
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 26:43
  I've seen so much over the last six months probably just on the
• 26:48
  Internet of just –
• 26:50
  People talking about yields and,
• 26:51
  you know,
• 26:52
  it's that's what farmers talk about.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's what the government supports,
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: how to grow as much food as possible,
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: even if it's the same goddamn nine things.
• 26:59
  You know,
• 26:59
  I saw a pretty well-known journalist the other day talking
• 27:03
  about,
• 27:03
  like,
• 27:03
  feedlots.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just,
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: killing me because,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: he was saying,
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:10
  the feedlots can produce a lot of beef in a small amount of
• 27:14
  area rather than,
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: grass-fed beef that could actually be destroying the land of,
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: for cutting down grazing land,
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: blah,
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: blah,
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: blah,
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: whatever.
• 27:22
  So,
• 27:23
  you know,
• 27:23
  when people talk about yields,
• 27:24
  you know,
• 27:24
  they're talking about...
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of the times in the U.S., they're talking about corn.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 27:30
  it's twice as productive as the most productive chestnut trees
• 27:34
  per acre or
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: something like that,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think I read in the book.
• 27:37
  But there's all these costs that go unaccounted for,
• 27:40
  which you talk about.
• 27:41
  And,
• 27:41
  you know,
• 27:42
  monocultures require 60 times more input than polyculture
• 27:46
  planting.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: 99% of corn isn't even consumed in the US.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's for like ethanol or for feeding animals.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: And also it's heavily subsidized.
• 27:55
  And you met a guy who was planting chestnuts and pawpaws
• 28:00
  together and the yields
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: were actually approaching something like the most productive corn,
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: industrial corn.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I found that fascinating that there's been no support
• 28:13
  over figuring out yields of a natural ecosystem for so many
• 28:18
  years it's all just
• 28:19
  been in you know how can we industrialize food so much get as
• 28:24
  much per acre as
• 28:26
  possible without all the additional costs that we're not taking
• 28:29
  into effect all the
• 28:30
  pollution you know the land degradation the soil degradation
• 28:35
  all these things and
• 28:37
  you were you found a guy that was you know doing this with
• 28:40
  chestnuts and pawpaws
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: and also raising his sheep
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: under the trees and they were foraging for the nuts.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not even taking into account all of the other animals,
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: coming to feed on the nuts.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if he was hunting or not,
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: but depending on how someone lived,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: that could be a factor.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just,
• 29:00
  we really need to rethink how we think about these natural
• 29:04
  systems in a way and how
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: can we
• 29:07
  develop these systems in a way that isn't like destroying
• 29:10
  everything but doesn't
• 29:11
  have all these unaccounted for cost you know all the all these
• 29:16
  all this bad shit
• 29:17
  that we don't talk about you know the guy talking about the
• 29:19
  feedlots the other day
• 29:21
  he didn't once mention that you know those feedlots were using
• 29:25
  corn to or whatever
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: grains to feed these cows and that takes so much land you know it's so
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: short-sighted
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, and it's also efficient.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's bad math.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's really not actual math.
• 29:42
  One of the most impactful people I spoke to when I was really
• 29:46
  trying to get to the
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: bottom,
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: this yield thing,
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: because it just kept bugging me.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, it does something about this doesn't make sense.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: There's a problem with this yield math.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't really figure it out for a while.
• 29:57
  I kept thinking about this class I'd taken in college where I
• 30:01
  learned about
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: externalities for the first time.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: It was like senior year.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: I was taking econ 101 to fulfill some requirement.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: And the professor started telling us about externalities.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 30:13
  these are just all the unaccounted for costs that are part of
• 30:16
  this magical
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: equation.
• 30:18
  And I ended up interviewing in the process of thinking about
• 30:22
  this with yield,
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: this agronomist named Ricardo Salvador,
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: and he's really smart guy,
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: really interesting.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: And he reminded me that yield is a ratio.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: So yield is measuring what you get out for what you put in.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: And if we, you know, we can look at that in different ways.
• 30:41
  We can look at that in terms of money,
• 30:43
  but we can also look at it in terms of land.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: And when we say that these,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: super productive cornfields are high yielding and they're outproducing,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: all these other kinds of crops and especially polycultures.
• 30:58
  We're not counting the land that goes into overproducing on
• 31:03
  that little plot of land.
• 31:05
  So,
• 31:06
  you know,
• 31:06
  someone who's producing,
• 31:08
  there's some guy who broke the world record.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: I can't remember now.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's like 32,000 pounds, tons.
• 31:16
  I actually can't remember the figure right now,
• 31:17
  but this insane amount of corn per acre.
• 31:21
  And like,
• 31:21
  we're not counting the land that grew the seed to do that corn.
• 31:26
  We're not counting the land that it took to create the
• 31:29
  machinery to produce that
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: corn,
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: the land that it took to produce the fossil fuels to grow that corn,
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: the land that it takes to absorb the pollution from that.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like we are not doing an accurate land cost analysis.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: And when you do that, when you start measuring, you know,
• 31:49
  all the land used to produce all the food that comes off of a
• 31:52
  given piece of land,
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: the high yield of those monocultures completely disappears.
• 31:58
  And if we're actually thinking about feeding the world with
• 32:02
  land as a limiting
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: factor,
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: which it very much is,
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: how much land do we need to feed everyone in the world?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's about the least efficient way that we could possibly produce food.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't make any sense when you factor in all the land
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that part of that,
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: when we have the yield conversation,
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: we tend to confuse ecology with economics.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: It might make a lot of economic sense to do things that way.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's fairly well established.
• 32:34
  But the economic system is just an imaginary game of rules that
• 32:39
  we made up.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: It has nothing to do with ecological law or with the ecology of yield.
• 32:45
  and yield is very much ecological it's it's not economical uh
• 32:50
  at its basis it's
• 32:51
  like how much photosynthesis can this land do how many calories
• 32:56
  can it produce uh
• 32:58
  and when we start looking at that the polycultures are they're
• 33:01
  always more
• 33:01
  productive this fully functioning sort of i tend to think of it
• 33:05
  as like 3d versus
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: like a flat piece of paper right like
• 33:08
  If you have this land with trees and animals moving under the
• 33:12
  trees and other
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: species,
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: like all this diversity mixed in,
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: you're always going to get more photosynthesis,
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: more energy production,
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: more food.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: They've done studies.
• 33:23
  One of the farmers I spoke with found me these really cool
• 33:26
  studies of oak savanna
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: versus cornfield,
• 33:29
  which happened to be like the two ecosystems that I was very
• 33:31
  interested in.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: And when you look at the photosynthesis capacity,
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's incredibly high in an oak savanna and much lower in a cornfield.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 33:43
  that's sort of phase number one of why we don't need to produce
• 33:48
  food this way is
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: it's not efficient in terms of actual land use.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: But the other part,
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: like you said,
• 33:52
  is we're actually not eating all this food that we say that we
• 33:55
  have to produce to
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: feed the world.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: which is a big red flag,
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: if we're saying like,
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: we have to do this to feed everyone,
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: and then we're only eating 1% of that food,
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: obviously,
• 34:07
  we don't have to do this to feed everyone that can't possibly
• 34:11
  be true if we're not
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: eating it.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that there's been a very, very carefully crafted
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: narrative around yield that doesn't line up with any of the facts.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: And when you look at that,
• 34:24
  these trees are super productive and are a very efficient way
• 34:29
  to produce a lot of
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: food.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I also say it depends on how you describe economics, right?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because,
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 34:37
  you can divide this to ways of looking at production and when
• 34:43
  it's successful or
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: not,
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: And consumption.
• 34:46
  But it depends on how you understand for economy and economics
• 34:50
  and what are the
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: values supporting that way of defining economy.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: So because economy is related with wealth and the wealth of a region,
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: nation,
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: macro region in terms of production and consumption,
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: of goods and services.
• 35:08
  If you define that well in ecological terms,
• 35:11
  then it doesn't make sense economically either.
• 35:15
  so i agree yeah you know and in honor in other uh many ways it
• 35:21
  doesn't make sense
• 35:22
  so i think the story and the narrative affects that definition
• 35:28
  too yeah very much
• 35:30
  so elspeth have you seen are people starting to eat acorns
• 35:35
  where you live or any
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: other tree nuts have you seen any kind of movement yeah i
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: I see a really strong movement beginning in the Midwest.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: Where I am on Cape Cod, we don't have a lot of farmland.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I think as a result,
• 35:54
  we have just less interest in farm culture and agroforestry and
• 36:00
  these sort of
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: shifts in general.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: But I was just at the
• 36:04
  a joint conference of the Northern Nut Growers Association and
• 36:07
  the Chestnut Growers of America.
• 36:08
  So there's all these nonprofits springing up in the Midwest
• 36:13
  around trying to
• 36:14
  transition back to some of these native crops that are part of
• 36:19
  those ecosystems
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: historically.
• 36:21
  Oak Savannah once covered a huge area of the Midwest thanks to
• 36:25
  indigenous burning and tending.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so this nonprofit in particular called the Savannah Institute
• 36:30
  is working with a lot of farmers in the Midwest to transition
• 36:34
  from soy and corn to
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: hazelnuts and chestnuts.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: Some people are doing it as a polyculture,
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: some people are doing it as more of a monoculture,
• 36:45
  but there is a broad conversation happening in these farm
• 36:49
  communities and a lot of
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: momentum and excitement building around these perennial tree crops.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: So that's been really fun to see.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's amazing.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in Ohio and I've told this story here before.
• 37:02
  You know,
• 37:03
  I grew up in the suburbs of Columbus and I was not exposed to
• 37:08
  anything.
• 37:09
  Like a farm to me was just the things on the side of the
• 37:11
  highway that just grew,
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: industrial corn.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: It was just miles and miles of the same,
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: like they looked exactly the same every stock and you never ate it.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: You never had any touch with it.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: There was a human behind it.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: So to see people...
• 37:26
  thinking in places like that and I know they are in Ohio and
• 37:30
  other parts of the
• 37:30
  Midwest as well just disrupting that way of thinking just for
• 37:37
  kids to look and see
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: what's growing and what the land can do is I think extremely positive
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:47
  And I think part of what's happened is there were these sort of
• 37:50
  early adopters like
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: 30 years ago.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of those farms are now like the farm that you mentioned,
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: which is Redfern Farm,
• 37:57
  where they have the chestnuts and the pawpaws and all these
• 38:00
  other edible fruits and
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: nuts with sheep underneath.
• 38:03
  they've gotten to this size of maturity where people can visit
• 38:07
  and they can see it.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it's something tangible.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like when I visited there,
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: you drive through cornfield after cornfield after cornfield.
• 38:13
  And then you get to this little oasis of red front farm with
• 38:17
  all the trees and the sheep.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it's one of the only places where you look around and you think,
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: Oh,
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: there's something to eat here,
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: cause it's,
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: there's different things in season at different times.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just this one,
• 38:28
  crop and i talked to one grower who had been watching them for
• 38:33
  30 years and he
• 38:34
  finally said okay what they're doing is working it makes sense
• 38:39
  and there's enough
• 38:39
  support now from groups like the non-profits i've mentioned and
• 38:44
  you know even some
• 38:44
  of the government conservation agencies for like soil health
• 38:48
  support that they felt
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: like
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: we've seen enough that we feel comfortable transitioning.
• 38:55
  And so I think that we're at this point where there really are
• 38:59
  model farms that
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: growers can look to and decide
• 39:04
  Yeah,
• 39:05
  I think it makes sense,
• 39:06
  which I don't think that we had 30 years ago.
• 39:08
  You know,
• 39:08
  I don't think there were enough examples for it to become a
• 39:11
  little more mainstream.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: And like you said, you know, there weren't kids seeing it like now.
• 39:17
  I think it's it's becoming a little more tangible in some of
• 39:20
  these areas where
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: people have really got them going and they're mature.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: So have you been begun eating acorns?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is it like a staple of your diet now?
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't say I've gotten all the way to staple,
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: but I've definitely started gathering and processing and eating acorns.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: I have more to learn before I get all the way to staple crop.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: But it's been a lot of fun.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: One of the first things I learned is like an acorn is not just an acorn.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'd be talking to people in Greece and California and the Midwest.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: What is the processing like today?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: It involves, so acorns have tannins, just like olives.
• 40:03
  So I don't know if anyone listening has ever picked an olive
• 40:05
  off a tree and tried
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: to put it in their mouth,
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: but you would be in for an extremely unpleasant experience.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: I did it once.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: You spit it out.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: It tastes awful.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: And acorns share that same chemical,
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: those tannins,
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: which on the one hand are great because they're preservative.
• 40:21
  But on the other hand,
• 40:22
  when you actually want to eat them,
• 40:23
  you really want to get them out.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: So any kind of acorn eating involves leaching.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: which is basically running cold water or warm water,
• 40:32
  depending on the product you're trying to make through acorns
• 40:36
  until those tannins
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: come out.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: The tannins are water soluble.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: So what I usually do is gather acorns in the fall, dry them out.
• 40:44
  I kind of like put them in a basket or on a baking sheet near
• 40:49
  my wood stove or in a
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: dry sunny spot.
• 40:51
  Just let them dry for a little while because they're a lot
• 40:53
  easier to shell once they've dried.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: The, the,
• 40:57
  You know,
• 40:57
  nut meat doesn't stick to the outside of the shell once they're
• 41:00
  dry.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: Then there's this nutcracker.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: If you start talking to acorn people,
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: most people have a Dave built,
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: which is this sort of hand crank.
• 41:08
  nutcracker that you can run the acorns through um so you shell
• 41:12
  them and then it
• 41:14
  depends what you want to make some people make oil which you
• 41:17
  actually it that's
• 41:19
  just the fat so it doesn't have those bitter tannins in so you
• 41:22
  can just press them
• 41:23
  into oil some species are better for oil than others because
• 41:27
  not not all acorns are
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: the same that's one confusing thing about acorns is like
• 41:32
  You can be talking to someone in Greece or California and
• 41:34
  you're talking about
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: acorns,
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: which you think is the same thing.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then it turns out, no, they have really oily ones.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: You have really starchy ones.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: But mostly around here, what I collect, I've been using to make flour.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: The best home method that I've found is to basically take the nut meats,
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: once you've taken off the shells,
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: to put them in a Vitamix with cold water.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't want to do a Vitamix ad, but I've tried other blenders and...
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: They don't work for acorns.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: So specifically for acorns, I do recommend the Vitamix.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: It makes it in this incredibly fine pulverized flour,
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: which you could also do by hand with a mortar and pestle.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: It would take a while.
• 42:11
  And then I spent some time at this place called the Maine Local
• 42:16
  Living School,
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: and their method is what I like the best.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: They basically run lukewarm water on
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: through that acorn flower very slowly.
• 42:25
  They put it on a trickle and they line like a colander with
• 42:29
  cheesecloth and put the
• 42:31
  acorn meal in there and just let that warm water trickle
• 42:34
  through it for a few
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: hours.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: And with the species that we have here that I'm using a lot,
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: which is white oak and northern red oak,
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: so Quercus alva and Quercus rubra,
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: or rubris.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: I might get that wrong.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: That seems to work pretty well.
• 42:49
  And the reason you can also do this with hot water and hot
• 42:52
  water is a lot faster.
• 42:54
  But the reason a lot of people use cold water and that you want
• 42:58
  to use cold water
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: is because it keeps a really important starch intact.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: So acorn has a starch that works just like cornstarch.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's a thickener.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: And for a lot of
• 43:09
  uses of acorn flour you really want that starch so you you can
• 43:14
  use hot water and it
• 43:15
  happens much faster like you can boil the tannins out of acorns
• 43:18
  and that'll be
• 43:19
  quick but it will also be not as good of a product when you're
• 43:23
  done and you know
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: obviously that's a home scale
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_02: And we're talking about feeding a lot of people.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: So there are people experimenting with larger scale processing.
• 43:33
  There's some chestnut growers in the Midwest who have realized
• 43:36
  that their equipment
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_02: can also process acorns.
• 43:39
  So they're doing a lot of experimentation with using the same
• 43:43
  lines of equipment
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: for chestnuts and acorns and producing flour that way,
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: which I think has a lot of promise.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: Ah, cool.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:50
  There was a lot in the book about the relationship between fire
• 43:54
  and oak trees.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:56
  So as I learned about oaks and started learning like what an
• 44:00
  important keystone
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: species they are,
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: I went out to California and hung out with the man I mentioned earlier,
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: Ron Reed,
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: who's an indigenous medicine man and cultural biologist.
• 44:12
  And he started telling me that to maintain the oak ecosystems
• 44:16
  in their area,
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: They use fire.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: So prescribed fire, cultural fire.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I was pretty interested by that.
• 44:24
  But when we first started talking about it,
• 44:26
  I thought it really only applied to that area.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: I knew that California had all this history with wildfire.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: And that, you know, kind of made sense to me.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: But someone else said,
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: you should really look into the history of fire and oaks in other areas.
• 44:40
  There's this whole hypothesis called the oak fire hypothesis,
• 44:44
  which I had never heard of.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it turns out that most oaks,
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: not all oaks,
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: but many oak species are what's called fire adapted.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: And they have this really long list of traits,
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: thick bark,
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: ability to re-sprout quickly after a fire.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: So when I started looking into it,
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: I realized that actually all over North America,
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: oak trees and fire have had this really long relationship and actually a
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: relationship that has traditionally involved humans and human burning.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_02: In eastern North America,
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: white oak has been the dominant species for 9000 years,
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: despite some pretty dramatic changes in climate at various points.
• 45:24
  And a lot of ecologists think that that is because of human
• 45:28
  burning and because people
• 45:30
  have been burning to keep these oak trees dominant on the
• 45:32
  landscape because oaks
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: are what's called a mid-successional species.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: So they don't like to get shaded out in terms of regeneration.
• 45:40
  If they start getting shaded out by birches and maples,
• 45:43
  oak seedlings won't do very well.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: They like a bit of an openness in the forest.
• 45:48
  And so human burning for the past 9000 years until pretty
• 45:54
  recently has actually
• 45:56
  maintained these conditions that oaks like and helped oak and
• 46:00
  hickory forests,
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: especially in our area,
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: regenerate and regenerate.
• 46:05
  that was a revelation for me because I've always seen oak trees
• 46:09
  as natural and wild,
• 46:10
  right?
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: And those words by definition mean that there's no humans involved.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: There's no human tending.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: There's no human care.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: And the more I learned and the more I started thinking about it,
• 46:24
  The more I started feeling like these categories that we put on
• 46:28
  food production
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: systems,
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: like hunting and gathering versus farming,
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: are really just,
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: another layer of story.
• 46:35
  And that people tending oak trees are doing all the same jobs
• 46:39
  that a farmer is
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: doing,
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: controlling the water cycle,
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: looking at pests and pathogens.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: But they're using this tool that can be really nuanced.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: of fire to create the conditions that this food crop needs.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: So that was really a revelation for me.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's super fascinating.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: So there is a longstanding study of fire on oak ecosystems where I live,
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: which I didn't know about before I started researching the book.
• 47:08
  I ended up going on some of the prescribed burns over there and
• 47:11
  getting trained in
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: prescribed fire
• 47:14
  and really starting to appreciate the amount of nuance that it
• 47:17
  takes to use fire
• 47:19
  effectively so they were studying you know what happens to the
• 47:22
  oak forest here if
• 47:23
  you burn every year every four years at these different
• 47:27
  frequencies um and if you
• 47:29
  burn every year you pretty quickly lose your oak forest because
• 47:32
  you're not having
• 47:32
  any regeneration of these oak seedlings they need a few years
• 47:36
  without fire to get
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_02: established um
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it depends on your ecosystem,
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: but in different places,
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_02: you'll have these different fire return intervals,
• 47:46
  basically how frequently you want to put fire on the land in
• 47:50
  order to get the
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_02: ecosystem that you're trying to maintain with fire.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: so I do now go on a lot of burns with mass fish and wildlife,
• 47:59
  which is doing a lot of work in our area to restore oak
• 48:02
  savannah habitat and some
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: other oak and grassland ecosystems.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_02: And the more I've learned about that,
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: the more I've started to see this human,
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 48:14
  wild relationship differently because a lot of the ecosystems
• 48:18
  that we talk about as
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: wild,
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 48:21
  We can only talk about that way if you basically erase
• 48:25
  thousands of years of
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_02: indigenous history.
• 48:27
  A lot of the landscapes that we see as natural and wild and
• 48:32
  that we talk about as
• 48:33
  natural and wild actually have a long history of human
• 48:36
  maintenance and human
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: tending and often with fire.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh,
• 48:42
  and I would recommend anyone who has even the smallest interest
• 48:46
  in fire to get
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: involved because it's great people and it's fascinating.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's,
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: it's just fascinating to be out there figuring out in real time,
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: what happens if we burn here?
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: What happens if we burn here?
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then going back and looking,
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 49:01
  I went back to some of the places we burn and there's all these
• 49:03
  oak sprouts and
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: it's like,
• 49:05
  okay,
• 49:05
  wow,
• 49:05
  you read about it in a book,
• 49:06
  but then you go do it and you see it.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it's pretty cool.
• 49:12
  What I'm continually fascinated by is just this long-term view
• 49:16
  of management,
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: of forest management,
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: especially when she got more into the fires in the book,
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: how indigenous management,
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: fires were not necessarily every year.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: They might be decades apart.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: And just thinking about,
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: food systems in this way that it,
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: a way that's decades,
• 49:39
  this long-term idea of it is just like counterintuitive to
• 49:45
  everything we've been
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: taught about,
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: like farming and agriculture.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: I started researching because,
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_02: first I thought the fire thing was maybe only California.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then I was like, oh, wow, it's out here where I live, too.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: There's this long history of fire.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_02: And as I started talking with people in a variety of places,
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: the British Isles,
• 50:04
  there's actually a really long history of humans using fire to
• 50:08
  tend a lot of these
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: heath lands and other landscapes.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: Australia has this long history of food production with fire.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_02: The Amazon has a long history of food production with fire.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I started really understanding what Ron Reed was telling me about our
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: relationship with oak trees and this fire.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_02: He kept telling me that oak trees are akin and that fire is medicine.
• 50:34
  And I thought like,
• 50:36
  oh,
• 50:36
  that's just a nice way to describe these relationships.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_02: But the more deeply I started to understand them, the more I realized...
• 50:44
  like no this is literal like we have been in this physical
• 50:49
  relationship with these
• 50:51
  trees for thousands of years when he says that we're kin we're
• 50:57
  in a relationship
• 50:58
  you know we're we're relatives in this way not in the way of
• 51:02
  like oh we're in the
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: same genus or whatever but like we're in a relationship we've been in a
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: relationship for thousands of years and
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I sort of,
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 51:13
  eventually managed to translate it into my own Western science
• 51:17
  speak background as
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: OK,
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: we're a keystone species,
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_02: too.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: We have a role to play in these ecosystems.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: And if we're important to oaks,
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: which are,
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: in their own right,
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: incredibly important to all these other species,
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe the natural world wouldn't be better off without us,
• 51:36
  which I think is always an assumption that I had had based on
• 51:38
  what I learned as a
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_02: kid about our relationship with the ecosystems around us.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_02: We were always destroying things.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 51:45
  I saw the post-apocalyptic movies and you read the books and
• 51:48
  like the ecosystems
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: are thriving because the humans finally disappeared.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_02: But like,
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_02: is that true if our disappearance means these oak trees are struggling to
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_02: regenerate?
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because,
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 52:00
  in a lot of ecosystems where fire suppression has become more
• 52:03
  common in the past
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_02: 100,
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_02: 150 years,
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_02: oaks are really struggling to regenerate.
• 52:08
  They're seeing problems with oak regeneration across the
• 52:11
  northern hemisphere.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: And in a lot of places, it's tied to the loss of human fire.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_02: So what I hope I do,
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: at least a little bit in the book,
• 52:21
  is challenge people to rethink that idea that the earth would
• 52:25
  be better off without
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_02: us.
• 52:26
  And,
• 52:26
  you know,
• 52:27
  because that kind of leads to like,
• 52:28
  well,
• 52:28
  we might as well just give up.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_02: It'll be better when we're gone.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_02: And if that's not true, then how do we want to rethink our relationships?
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_02: How do we want to interact with the living world around us?
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think it challenges people to...
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_02: think a little bit differently about how we're showing up.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: We can actually be helpful and necessary.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:51
  And I think it can be a little bit of a self-fulfilling
• 52:53
  prophecy too,
• 52:54
  right?
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: If you believe, oh, we're just bad.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: The best thing we can do is remove ourselves.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_02: Then you're kind of, you're not going to interact.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_02: If you think, oh, we have a really important job to do here.
• 53:04
  Cause that was the other thing Ron kept telling me,
• 53:06
  you know,
• 53:06
  we're not doing our job.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_02: We're not doing our job.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: And at first I was like, what, what's our job, you know?
• 53:12
  Um,
• 53:14
  but we do,
• 53:15
  we have jobs and if we don't do them,
• 53:17
  then ecosystems suffer.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_02: it's nice to be needed,
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_02: it's nice to have a role to play besides like,
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_02: Oh,
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_02: go disappear.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_02: Cause that's not, it's not a very exciting role.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: Huh?
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, it was, I found it very hopeful.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think just the book throughout just, um,
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: just what these trees can do for us and what we can do for them.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to thank you for sharing your story with us.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_02: So much for having me.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a pleasure.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_02: Likewise.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, everyone, for listening.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: That was Elspeth Hay.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: She wrote the book Feed Us with Trees, Nuts in the Future of Food.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: Check it out at small bookstores everywhere.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you for listening.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: Please check us out on Substack.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_00: Just go to newworlder.com or search for New World on Substack.
• 54:15
  If you like the episode,
• 54:16
  if you like listening,
• 54:18
  please like us and share us.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: It all helps.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.