Latest / IB Unplugged / Curiosity in the Age of Instant Answers w/ Tim Lovatt

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Curiosity in the Age of Instant Answers w/ Tim Lovatt · IB Unplugged

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If the goal isn't sort of that immediate academic success,
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but the goal is curiosity,
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and the goal is is finding out something that you didn't know before,
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that's a different framing.
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And that's something that we as educators have to work really hard on,
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I think.
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Hi, everybody.
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Welcome to another episode of IB Unplugged.
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We're super excited you are here.
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Now, I know that many of you are educators and like me,
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you've probably been in a classroom
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where you've watched one of your students who just really wants to do well,
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answering all the questions by going to AI.
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And so it begs this question how do we deal with that?
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How do we actually make a difference so that we're not losing
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that curiosity piece from young people, but when they have access
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to every single answer out there, how do we cultivate curiosity?
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Exactly.
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So we wanted to dive into this, and we found Tim Lovatt
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to be the perfect person to talk to you about this.
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He's head of digital learning at UWC Southeast Asia.
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He's also a physics teacher, and he's done a lot of work in his school
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about really answering these kinds of questions and supporting
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teachers and helping answer them, too.
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So today, we are going to talk about curiosity
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as a kind of fundamental element of the learning experience,
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how to connect the school's mission and purpose into the way
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that they talk about technology and a lot of other good things.
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So we're excited to dive into this, and let's get started.
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Hi, Tim. Welcome to IB Unplugged.
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Thank you.
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So to start off we usually do some warm up questions.
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And so the first one is we are going to be talking a lot
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about your all the different roles that you have at your school.
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But I think where you kind of started is ultimately as a physics teacher.
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And so to kick the theme of creativity
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and curiosity off, what does a physics classroom look like
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when you have a really curious class, compared to maybe other subjects?
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I think curiosity is different
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in every classroom, and it's different for every individual.
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I think it's about finding things that energize you.
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It's about finding things that give you passion.
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It's about finding ways in which you can find out more
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just because you want to, not because it's going to be on a test
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or, you know, there's going to be some kind of
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point attached to it in some way.
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But just because you want to know why.
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And so, you know,
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I feel lucky being a physics teacher because it's an experimental science.
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You know,
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kids can do things with a hands and they can notice things
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and they can wonder why of things that are sort of right in front of them.
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And so I guess the
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kind of the physical, practical, interactive nature of it helps.
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But then there's also some super theoretical aspect of it as well.
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There are incredibly abstract and sort of multi-dimensional and,
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you know, just kind of watching kids
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build their own understanding of the world around them
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is something that I see a lot in a physics classroom.
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There are humanities teachers that would say that's
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exactly what they're doing in that classroom as well.
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And, you know, it would look totally different.
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But for me, it's about experimentation.
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It's about exploration.
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It's about trying something out.
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Oh, it didn't work very well.
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Trying something different,
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you know, iteration, design, thinking those kind of things.
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And it's all over the place.
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I can definitely identify with that.
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I know at the start of every year, we always try
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to do a couple of experiments like that that get the kids really engaged.
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And I remember speaking to our lab tech a while ago, because I'm a biology teacher,
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and I was like, it's just they get so excited
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in the physics classrooms, like, what are we,
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what do we have in bio that we can really get them going?
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Like, you can't crash anything or have any mechanics, like any ball
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swinging here.
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Like it's a very different thing when it comes to bio.
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So I am a little bit jealous because, you know, physics is just full of
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all sorts of that stuff that kind of looks like magic.
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Right?
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And then kids kind of dive deeper into it and, yeah.
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So it's cool. That's cool.
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But I'm in biology does as well.
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You just have to wait two weeks and then you come back later.
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You just have to wait a little while and let it smell.
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You know, if it smells funny, then it's biology.
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Yeah, right.
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But, you know, I think
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in science teachers, you know, we tend to get these great questions.
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I wonder, is there a moment recently where students
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surprised you with a question that you hadn't expected?
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I think students have great questions, just broadly anyway, because
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they're still kind of forming their sense of the world.
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When I was thinking about this,
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I think that the question that,
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really jumped out at me and this is
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kind of linking to our conversation later anyway.
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But the question that surprised me recently was from a parent, actually.
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And, I have a lot of conversations with parents.
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Tech is a hot topic.
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And it's also a very polarizing topic.
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And so, in the space of about 45 minutes, I had two parent meetings,
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a couple of months ago now, and,
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one parent said, you know, get rid of all screens.
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We need to be banning everything.
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You know, there's no place for these kind
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of distraction machines in our classrooms.
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And then, off the back of that conversation, I went into
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another parent meeting who said to me,
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you know what you should do, right?
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You should figure out all of the kids who are finding sneaky ways to
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get around that firewall and to access crazy things online and to
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go on the dark web.
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And you should reward them, because that's the kind of creativity
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that is going to help them succeed.
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That's when you go
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what was your kid's name again?
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Let me just write it down. Yeah, right?
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It's like two totally polar
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opposite opinions within 30 minutes of each other.
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And it was, you know, things like that
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often the things that surprised you the most is the strength of people's
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opinions in opposite corner.
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Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
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You have to be kind of ready for it.
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But at the same time you can't be ready for a lot of things.
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So you just have to be kind of open and go,
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well, yeah, that's an interesting idea. Yeah.
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And who's going on the dark web now?
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Who should I be looking for? Right.
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Yeah. Yeah, maybe he's not wrong.
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You know, those kids are going to do really well in the future, I’m sure.
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What they do well at that's questioning.
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There's an argument there, right?
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You know, you got somebody who's pursuant to something,
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who's interested in things wanted to have into a deeper.
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Yeah, I understand where they're coming from.
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I don't know if I agree with the method, but, I understand where the coming from.
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And, I mean, a lot of this, of course, is related to AI now and a lot of
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I think that's where probably a lot of the parents are also stepping in in a way
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that they maybe didn't fully understand before or didn't care as much before.
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But for you, if you had to describe the relationship between AI and curiosity
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right now, what would it be?
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Tense.
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I think.
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It could be going either way.
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Right?
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And it depends entirely on your understanding of yourself and your
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thought processes and your metacognition and your self-regulation, I guess.
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All things that teenagers are really good at.
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Oh, yeah. Really strong. Yeah.
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But if you have a tool that can either
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give you kind of generic, mostly correct answers
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to pretty much any question that you could ask versus
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you have a tool that can challenge all of your preconceptions about something
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and give you three alternative perspectives
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that you would never have thought of yourself and help
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you build an understanding of a link with a subject that you have absolutely
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no experience of whatsoever.
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You know, those are
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two powerful diverging streams of curiosity.
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In one, you know, curiosity is kind of getting
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systematically squashed without you really noticing.
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And in the other your curiosity is being amplified
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and it's the same tool.
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Right?
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It's just purely down to the interactions with it and the user.
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And, so there's this kind of tension there.
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And there's this real element of importance,
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the sort of knowing why you're doing things
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and how your brain works and things like that.
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Like, it's been important.
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It's been important in the past,
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and it always has been arguably important for the learning process,
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you know, learning science and learning how to learn and understanding
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your sort of neural pathway formation.
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And, you know, all of those kind of things.
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But but now it's important, not just from a sort of additive perspective,
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but from a reducing that diminishing perspective.
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Tim, that answer has me pretty excited for our conversation here.
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And it really lends itself well to our first sort of area,
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our first sort of segment here
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where I really want to get into that idea of curiosity in the age of AI,
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because just as you've said, and I've noticed as a teacher,
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you kind of do have this dichotomy, or maybe even more where you have
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some students who are just focused on the grade,
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and so they see it as the ultimate answer giving machine.
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But in some respects that actually causes a lot more stress, a lot more anxiety,
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because they're like, well, I didn't know that.
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Do I have to know that to understand this other thing?
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And suddenly the whole idea of like scaffolding a curriculum
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and helping students understand things bit by bit so they can piece it
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together is gone, because they're just here's my answer machine.
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But just what you said there, like, it can expand perspectives
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and this sort of thing.
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So yeah, let's dive into that a little bit.
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Like if a student can ask AI anything, get an instant answer,
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what happens to that sense of wonder,
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and how do we kind of cultivate that sense of wonder in young people again?
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Yeah, something that I say to my students is
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if you're just asking AI questions,
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you're kind of using it wrong.
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Right? It's the replacement.
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What I think that students do a lot of
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and I think this is, you know, global
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and adults do a lot of as well is that it's kind of a replacement
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for a search engine in a lot of ways.
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And it doesn't help that Google stack it at the top of that search engine.
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That's unhelpful.
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But what really should be happening is AI should be asking you questions.
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And, as soon as you kind of flip that narrative,
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then your instinct to wonder becomes reflective as well.
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You know, if you're like, you can wonder
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about the things that you think you know and you can wonder about the next thing
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that you want to know and how that might connect with things.
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And so I think that the kind of instant answer machine, it's
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where all the big tech companies want us to think the AI is for.
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It's for speeding up things.
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It's for making you more efficient.
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It's for, you know, offloading menial tasks.
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It's for kind of supporting you in your work,
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but what you really want it to be doing,
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and if you are concerned about your instinct to wonder,
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you want it to be challenging you.
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You don't want it to be making your life easier.
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You want it to be making your life harder.
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Now, this is if you're using it for learning,
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if you're using it for, you know,
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optimizing your calendar organization or whatever,
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sure.
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Or if you're, you know, an established professional
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with decades of experience in a particular field
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and you know exactly what you're doing and you're choosing
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to cognitively offload some of those things, fine.
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But if you want to learn something
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then AI should be increasing
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the friction for learning, not decreasing it.
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And the instinct to wonder, to be curious about things
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is even more important when you can get those instant answers.
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It's harder to contain in yourself when it's so easy.
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And particularly difficult for teenagers.
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You know, teenagers don't cheat because they're lazy.
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Teenagers cheat because they have 12 different deadlines.
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They've messed up their time management.
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They've, you know, they've actually got service.
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They've been sent,
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you know, in an international school context,
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the competitive international school context,
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they've finished school at 3:30 p.m.
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They've then gone for two hours of tutoring,
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then they've had two hours of music lesson,
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and they've gone and played their sport. And then it's 11 p.m.
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and they've got to do their homework that's due tomorrow.
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Of course, right?
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The option is there.
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But if the goal isn't sort of that immediate academic success,
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but the goal is curiosity
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and the goal is finding out something that you didn't know before.
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That's a different framing.
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And that's something that we as educators have to work really hard on, I think.
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Tim hits on a key insight.
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Students are rarely cheating out of laziness,
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but usually out of being overwhelmed.
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Research from Stanford's challenge success program highlights how reducing
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deadline stacking dramatically decreases academic integrity violations.
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This sometimes feels impossible with IA’s or exam season, but really working on
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this as a schoolwide structure and plan can help bring out tangible change.
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Absolutely.
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I think that's a huge thing we have to do because we really have to make sure
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that we're framing it around the genuine learning,
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the development of the skills and that sort of thing.
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And I think it's a great thing in the diploma program where
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there is that focus on approaches to learning, there is that focus on,
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for lack of better term, soft skills.
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And that's helped to bring out a curiosity.
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And, you know, inquiry is one of our biggest things.
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And yet, yes, you do have students who are really quite focused on.
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But these are the hoops I have to jump through.
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These are the hurdles I have to go over in order
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to get these grades and that sort of thing.
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So the pressure's on,
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and that manifests itself in lots of different ways.
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But what what you just mentioned there has got me really curious.
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Give me an example.
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What do you mean like,
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how could I kind of flip that so much easier?
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Because of course, most
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AI prompts are sitting there like, hey, what can I help you with?
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How do I kind of flip that
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so that it's asking me the questions that expand my thinking?
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That's the million dollar question, I think.
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And there's a foundation there of explicitly teaching metacognition.
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I think that there's that students have to understand how learning works
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in order to be able to make intentional choice for that learning.
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If you're looking to build metacognition into how you talk about AI use
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in your classroom, you can explore Harvard's Project Zero's Visible Thinking
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Routines, which are specifically frameworks like claim, support, question,
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or I used to Think now I think or, parts, purposes and complexities
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and you can apply them to AI use in specific projects.
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And I think that starts quite young.
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I think that with a sort of articulated route through that
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learning from primary, certainly from primary school,
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all the way through to the end of high school
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and the DP program, I think that there're
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kind of ways in which they can develop those and thinking routines
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that they can go through and reflective routines
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that they can go through to investigate
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their own schemas that they have and things like that.
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Part of it is what we emphasize through assessment.
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And I think that, for too long,
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assessment has been well, I mean, to put it frankly,
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how much can you remember from a two year course
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in a 2.5 hour exam paper?
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Now IB is, you know,
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is dynamic and conceptual, but at the same time,
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it's still assessing the kind of understandings of the student,
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rather than assessing the process through which they went,
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to get that understanding.
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And I think that, in some way,
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and I think the AI is just accelerating this change,
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I think we've realized this for a while, and, in some way,
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AI is accelerating that in so much
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that it can provide,
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first of all, an incentive for teachers to change up the assessments, like,
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we're seeing a lot of students with credibly creative
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ways of avoiding plagiarism detectors, for example,
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and rather than kind of
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rather than engaging in that constant, you know,
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erosion of trust fundamentally,
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I think that, going through process, we've had a huge amount of our teachers,
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whether through professional learning or through sort of organic need,
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redesigning assessments to be more about,
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kind of oral defenses or,
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kind of the sort of reflective examining
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of text that they have written or produced,
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or the sort of, like exhibition
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style persuasion of an argument that can,
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you know, that can come across in that interpersonal interactions,
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all of those kinds of things, they focus more on
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the process of developing and understanding, rather than
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having the understanding itself.
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I think that assessment will change.
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I don't know how quickly external assessment, like the IB, will change.
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I think they have all sorts interesting pilots on a go at the moment,
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and I think that they will materialize into some really, really cool things.
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And I also think that within schools we are going to come up with some really,
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really clever ways of measuring that process.
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What were you actually thinking when you wrote this?
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How did reading this paragraph or writing this paragraph,
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how did that change your thinking?
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What's one doubt you still have about what you understand from that?
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You know, those kinds of questions about going through that learning process.
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I think that there just going to be more and more important.
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Towards the beginning,
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you were talking about this idea of like the process that grows over time.
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And I think that you are
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in a really great position where as head of digital learning,
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you work K through 12, so you get to kind of be,
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like spider in the
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web of how it grows and evolves over time.
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Is there anything that you feel like you do specifically at your school,
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at your campus, in your role to,
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I think one of the things that you are talking about
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with the process, it does align with curiosity.
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It's like, how do I make these students care
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about what they're doing, not just remember the things
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and how do I have them think critically and wonder and all of this.
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So like, I think it ties really well, but I'm curious if there's anything
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that you do specifically to not lose
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the skill of curiosity or the desire to have that be part of learning?
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Yeah, I think that that's a really important thing,
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because all of that metacognition and all of that stuff is a foundation
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for curiosity, but it doesn't itself create curiosity.
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The curiosity is created through the,
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sort of personal relevance and context and something that matters to you.
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And it's about helping students find that thing that matters to them.
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And, there's another fine line here, but
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something that we do is
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we're very mission aligned.
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We're very driven by our mission and our values.
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And they show up in all kinds of the things that we do.
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We have high service expectations for our students.
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We have high activities expectations.
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We have high outdoor education expectations of our students.
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And because of that, they're exposed to a lot of things.
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And a lot of the time
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they accidentally discover one of those things that
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it turns out they're really passionate about.
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Now, it doesn't work perfectly for every single child,
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but giving students a range of experiences, regardless of their,
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sort of levels of comfort
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with those experiences, initially enables them to find,
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like a real passion and a calling and a thing to be curious about.
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And, those kind of contextual experiences
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help students be like,
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oh, well, you know, it's one thing to
20:38
oh, no, global warming is a big global problem.
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But you know, what can I do about that?
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You know, sure, I can sort of recycle more or take the bus or whatever.
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But if you take those contextual experiences and you help
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students apply them to their own personal lives.
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So, for example, rather than
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a project on environmental sustainability of food,
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for example, you get students to
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identify the sort of food
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miles from their local takeaway place
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and then, kind of go in and intervene the workers and
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chat with them about alternative sources for that, you know, meat
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that's flown in from Argentina or, you know, whatever, that sort of thing,
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and those kind of dialogs,
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and those kind of explorative
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things that are relevant to them,
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really, really help to nurture that and have a challenge for
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that is that it can feel tokenistic.
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And so what needs to happen then is you need to have structures in place
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that students can then take on that project in subsequent years
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when they're not, you know, it's not like, oh, now it's a new school year,
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someone's got a totally different set of things
21:52
that we're going to think about.
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And it's finding that balance between independent exploration
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and sustainable innovation.
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Yeah.
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Because, I definitely see that from, at least
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I see that a big responsibility that I have,
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is to create a breadth of experiences, at least in the biology course
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and for that matter, in the DP that say, like you might when you take biology,
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you might think, oh, this is the path to being a doctor
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without recognizing there's tons of different opportunities
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that kind of present themselves in the course.
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So I think many educators would look at that as like, this is our
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role is to kind of show all the different things
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that you might dive into and say as a student, oh, I love that thing, actually.
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And I've never looked at it from that perspective,
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and I want to go further into it.
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But I love what you say about the systems
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necessary to follow it on, because it can't just be a one off
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sort of token thing, but you're not really sure
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what part of your course is going to grab a student.
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So it's a fun challenge, and I guess it just requires us
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to be really in tune with it, really aware and ready to have that deeper dialog
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as it comes up,
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and I guess then it's also an encouragement not to just get stuck on
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what's going to be on the assessment
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and am I teaching them to do well on the assessment, but am I giving them
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a breadth of opportunities to discover their strengths
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for their interests and talents and that sort of thing.
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So, it really lends itself quite a bit because I think
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what we're talking about here is developing true curiosity.
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And so far it sounds like
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you've got to kind of pivot away from just what's the answer here,
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and more that like, how do I bring out some more inquiry.
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And I know you've done a ton of work at this at UWC and so I'm
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wondering like, how do you build in that AI strategy around human skills?
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And you mentioned you're very mission driven there.
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So tell me a little bit more about that.
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How we use education in a way that helps
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AI integration still building curiosity, that sort of thing?
23:40
Yeah, that's a big question.
23:45
So, I think that, fundamentally, I think it's about having
23:48
a really organizational wide
23:51
clarity on why you do what you do.
23:55
And, if your goal is to get
23:59
a bunch of students into the IB League, then,
24:03
great.
24:04
If your goal is to equip
24:07
students with the necessary skills
24:11
to kind of thrive and feel like that they have a life of meaning.
24:15
Great.
24:16
Our role is to make education a force to unite people
24:21
nations and cultures for peace and a sustainable future.
24:24
So, that is an indelible part of our fabric.
24:28
And it's kind of woven into all of our strategy documents.
24:31
It's woven into all the questions that we ask of any new initiative.
24:35
It's woven into questions that we ask the students.
24:37
And, you know, I mean, they're teenagers,
24:39
so they roll their eyes at things like that.
24:40
But then, you know, they come back to us as alumni 20 years later
24:43
and they're like, you know what? That really shaped my life.
24:46
And that's really, really cool.
24:49
And then because it really shaped their life, they really want to give back.
24:52
And they host all kinds of things and they
24:55
come in and we have a kind of mentorship program
24:57
where you know, young aspiring innovators are connected
25:02
with mentors to help them, you know, develop ideas and things like that.
25:05
And it's kind of cyclical.
25:08
And people come back and they give back.
25:10
So I think the first bit is to have that real identity
25:15
and to make sure that it is woven into the things that you're doing all the time.
25:20
And then the second thing is about having a way
25:22
for students to explore with each other in order to fail.
25:27
And it's really, really difficult to explain the value of failure
25:31
to a teenager who's studying for exams.
25:36
Because it's sort of,
25:40
you know, a scary word.
25:42
It's sort of highly discouraged every other part of their life.
25:46
Yeah.
25:47
And so having opportunities for them
25:51
to sort of constructively fail,
25:55
I think is really vital.
25:58
And, some students lean right into that.
26:02
And, you know, they're the students that rock up at the makerspace at 6 a.m.
26:05
and they're, you know, they've snapped the first skateboard
26:08
that they built.
26:09
And they're going to build another one sort of thing.
26:11
And then those students kind of lean into it.
26:14
Then you have students that can go for it,
26:17
when they perceive that the risk isn't very high.
26:21
And so that's about the sort of pedagogical approaches,
26:24
that's about how you talk about it and how you talk about learning
26:27
and how you talk about failure in class.
26:31
And then these students who,
26:34
whether culturally
26:35
or personally or otherwise,
26:38
are terrified by it.
26:42
And obviously, they're the kind of hardest group
26:44
to support through those kind of learnings about failure.
26:49
But I think that with the right level of school culture
26:53
and again, like rationale for why you're doing all of this stuff,
26:58
with the right levels of connection with people who have
27:02
failed before and can talk all about it,
27:04
and with the right language used by parents and educators, you know,
27:07
there's a homeschool partnership thing going on there as well.
27:09
Yeah, parents don't like failure generally.
27:12
Yeah.
27:13
And there's a sort of cultural thing there as well.
27:16
Right?
27:18
Different cultures perceive failure in different ways.
27:20
Different cultures perceive failure
27:24
in different ways that impact either groups or individuals.
27:27
And there's a lot of difference there.
27:30
And, you know, unpacking that is something to be done as well.
27:35
So, there's really no kind of magical solution there, I think.
27:39
But it's kind of a values thing.
27:42
It's a culture thing.
27:45
It's a pedagogy thing and it's a kind of relationships thing as well.
27:48
You know, it's how we talk to the kids and what about.
27:53
The idea of productive failure
27:54
has become increasingly influential in educational research.
27:58
Scholars such as Manu Kapur have shown that struggling with difficult problems
28:02
before receiving instruction
28:03
can sometimes lead to deeper learning than receiving direct instruction first.
28:08
The challenge for schools is creating conditions
28:11
where failure feels safe enough to be constructive.
28:14
For more support on this,
28:16
you could check out Manu Kapur's book Productive Failure, Susan Brook-Hart's
28:19
work on how to give effective feedback, or of course, mindset by Carol Dweck.
28:25
How do you talk to the kids about AI then?
28:30
Like practically, I think like, great.
28:33
I think that it's fantastic the mission of your school.
28:36
I think it's fantastic
28:37
that they have a role like yours where, you know, this is
28:41
one of the elements of it, like, what do you say and how do you do it?
28:45
We have a wide, wide range of student perspectives,
28:48
just like we have a wide, wide range of parent perspectives.
28:51
And we have some students
28:52
who conscientiously object on environmental or ethical grounds,
28:55
and they refuse to use anything that has been touched by AI in that perception.
29:02
That's getting harder, to be honest.
29:04
You know, being unable to use Google is, you know,
29:08
it's not impossible, but it's seeping in.
29:11
But then we have other students who, you know, it's everywhere.
29:14
And so,
29:17
I guess the conversations that we have with students
29:21
are values based,
29:23
that, you know, what do you want to get out of this?
29:27
What impact
29:28
do you think this has on your wellbeing and the well-being of others around you?
29:33
We have a couple of frameworks, the kind of informed conversations
29:37
about this, so, you know, we have academic integrity conversations.
29:41
We have, kind of guidelines on,
29:44
first of all, what the IB say of that age, but also apart from the DP,
29:49
we have our own bespoke curriculum throughout K to ten.
29:53
So it's a lot about our values and our expectations and how we communicate
29:56
those to students, things that we're working on.
30:00
Things like
30:03
kind of articulating and
30:05
embedding, a sort of robust research process.
30:09
There's a lot of, kind of,
30:11
uncertainty with students about like, what research should look like
30:15
when you might get AI involved and when you might not. And,
30:20
for some students, that means kind of skirting the edge of the rules.
30:23
For some students, that means
30:25
being so terrified of breaking the rules that they just back off entirely
30:29
from everything and get a book out the library kind of thing.
30:32
We want a middle ground between that.
30:35
And so there's a transparency piece there, and
30:38
there's a sort of genuine conversation to be had.
30:42
We approach a lot of our conversations with students,
30:46
in terms of those kind of values
30:49
based approaches. These are our school values.
30:52
This is what we say we're here for.
30:54
This is what you're here for.
30:56
This is why we've asked you to use AI for this,
30:58
or this is why we've not asked you to use AI for this.
31:01
This is the scale we're trying to get you to develop here.
31:04
And so if you get AI to do that scale, you know,
31:09
that's not the goal of this exercise kind of thing.
31:12
Trying to be
31:13
transparent with students about when they shouldn't use
31:16
AI for those reasons and when they can use AI for those reasons.
31:21
You know, if they've mastered a skill already
31:25
and they kind of find a way to speed that process up
31:29
by outsourcing that, great.
31:30
You know, people be using things like cite this for me,
31:34
or my babe for decades.
31:38
Right?
31:38
You know, and that's, you know, sure, I know how to type out a citation,
31:42
but really, you know, I can I can get a machine to do that for me.
31:46
And that's not AI, but that's, you know, that's
31:49
the same kind of questions.
31:50
It's why are we really doing this?
31:53
You know, and so it's those kind of conversations but it's not easy.
31:56
And there's no easy answer, in my experience.
32:00
If you have one, then please do let me know.
32:01
What stage through that whole thread of what you just spoke about
32:04
was how important it is
32:06
for a school to identify their specific mission
32:09
and let that permeate through all the different assignments
32:12
and all the different things that you do.
32:13
And that's what's really sticking with me, because, you know,
32:17
I was actually quite impressed with how you said, like,
32:18
if your goal is this, then great.
32:20
If your goal is this, then great. And you didn't really change.
32:23
I thought that was really nice because it's really true.
32:27
You know, depending on what the aims are of the school,
32:29
what you say you are doing as a school, well then that's definitely going to
32:32
trickle down to everything that you do beyond that,
32:35
like how you set your assignments, how you ask
32:38
or instruct students to work with AI, etc.
32:41
So I think that's actually the simple answer
32:45
is identify your core mission, your core values,
32:49
what it is as a school that you're trying to do.
32:50
And then that helps to guide, I guess, what you're looking for.
32:53
At least that's what I'm taking from what you just told me, Tim, and I think that's
32:57
useful.
32:58
Yeah, I think that's spot on. Well summarized.
33:01
Excellent job.
33:02
Thank you.
33:04
Yeah.
33:04
No I agree and I think it's also forcing schools to do what
33:10
they probably should have or at least wanted to for a long time.
33:15
Like you don't have a mission just to make a cute frame on the wall
33:19
and then just like walk past it sometimes.
33:21
You want it to permeate into everything that you're doing.
33:24
And I think that
33:27
it develops the student's understanding of why
33:31
in a better way than maybe you used to have to before,
33:37
where you're explaining why they should learn a skill or develop a skill,
33:41
because they have another alternative at the ready
33:45
in a way that they didn't previously.
33:46
But that's also just good teaching, too,
33:50
for students to understand why they're doing things.
33:53
So I think that in that way it's actually a really positive evolution
33:57
in this bigger need and accountability of
34:02
why are you doing the things that we're asking you to do.
34:06
Right. Yeah.
34:08
On that note, I have this kind of epiphany
34:09
the other day where I was teaching some sort of graphing skills,
34:13
the sort of thing that we do in physics and,
34:17
you know,
34:19
I don't know. Well, there's a biology
34:20
teacher here is probably going to say we roll balls downhills, which is probably fair.
34:24
And then we drew a graph and I got them to do it by hand.
34:30
Right?
34:30
And I got them to draw the line of best fit and everything by hand.
34:33
And the students were kind of like, why?
34:36
Why are we doing this?
34:39
Sir, I would like to introduce you to Excel and it’ll do this for me.
34:43
Like I have this sort of, like $1,500 machine in front of me.
34:46
Like can’t that just do it?
34:47
Isn’t that the whole point of this thing?
34:50
And, you know, maybe, historically,
34:53
I would have been like, yeah, you know, but you want to practice
34:55
your graph drawing skills and I would have maybe left it at that.
34:59
But this time I kind of took a step back and I was like, you know what?
35:04
Yeah.
35:05
And when you draw that line of best fit,
35:08
you have to decide where that line goes.
35:12
Right?
35:12
You're making a conscious decision to put that line
35:16
a little bit closer to that point and a little bit there.
35:19
Oh now it's a bit steeper than it would have otherwise been.
35:21
And that gradient matters.
35:22
That's the thing that we're measuring.
35:24
You are choosing that, you are in charge.
35:27
You are the scientist.
35:29
And so now, once you've made those decisions a few times,
35:32
once a machine does it for you,
35:34
you then have the skill to be like, oh, I wouldn't have put it there.
35:38
I would have done it slightly differently to that.
35:40
And you have that kind of critical lens that you would not have if you hadn't done
35:44
that plotting by hand.
35:45
And that's like just a little microcosm of that,
35:47
exactly what you were talking about, Courtney.
35:49
Yeah, but it's a perfect example.
35:50
Yeah, it's a great example.
35:52
And it kind of carries into this next segment here I want to talk about, you know, okay,
35:55
school has established their mission and they know what they want to do here.
35:59
And I'm looking
35:59
at like the educators role here specifically because you just gave
36:03
a great example that, you know, as a fellow science teacher,
36:06
I think so frequently students are used to a graphing
36:12
tech tool that does it for them that they start to miss the nuances.
36:16
They start to not notice, for example, the line of best fit or not notice
36:21
where there's a statistical difference
36:23
or where there's a grouping that's completely different to another grouping.
36:26
And therefore
36:27
those things are kind of gone to them because they're just used to like
36:29
seeing data being presented.
36:31
And it's like, well, that's just a nice way to look at it,
36:33
as opposed to really critically engaging with it.
36:35
And so I love that example, and I want to go deeper into that,
36:40
what does it look like to teach students how to interact with their tech.
36:44
And I guess AI is one of them,
36:45
but how to interact with their technology so that it deepens their thinking.
36:49
And I guess in that example, it was like, take the technology out of it,
36:52
but are there ways
36:53
that we can kind of deepen that thinking instead of replacing their thinking
36:56
with their tech tool?
36:58
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
37:00
And this is the sort of crux of that debate
37:03
between no screens, maximum screen somewhere in the middle screens.
37:06
Right?
37:06
The pendulum is swinging back towards
37:09
the anti tech movements and things like that.
37:12
But, the key there is in the balance
37:16
between the two sides.
37:19
And there's, as with everything,
37:21
that sort of nuance and subtleties and you know,
37:25
the key is helping students to be intentional about what they
37:31
want to learn, what they want to get out of the exercise.
37:34
And part of that is telling them what the exercise is for.
37:36
Like there's been the teaching like, in the past has been like
37:40
this kind of, you know, yeah,
37:41
well, we, you know, we write the learning objectives on the board.
37:43
And this is what you all know by the time you leave the lesson and
37:47
yeah, but we've never really like gone
37:50
as far as to saying this is why we're doing this task in this way.
37:54
And actually, I think that's,
37:57
in some circumstances, for some ages of students,
38:00
I think that's doing them a disservice.
38:01
I think that they by naming those things and by saying,
38:06
you know, we're doing this because we're going to nurture this skill.
38:10
Like, to give an example of tech being used to amplify.
38:16
Like we have a middle school DT department
38:19
doing kind of design thinking processes and stuff like that.
38:23
And they create a whole bunch of different personas with different needs.
38:26
And they help to stress test a prototype.
38:29
And, you know, it takes no time.
38:33
You don't need to get loads of guest people to come in.
38:34
And the students practice their questioning techniques
38:38
and all that sort of stuff.
38:39
And then later on in the unit, someone with a kind of specific
38:43
set of disabilities, for this particular need,
38:46
comes in and, and they have that same conversation live.
38:49
But the students feel empowered that they've had that level of practice,
38:53
that they're more confident in that prototype
38:55
because it's been stress
38:56
tested in multiple different directions, and they feel more able
38:59
to engage with that, honestly, incredibly valuable resource
39:03
that is presented in front of them,
39:05
like the lived experience of another human.
39:07
That is an extremely valuable resource,
39:10
and they wouldn't
39:11
be able to get as much out of that if it hadn't been for those rehearsals.
39:15
And the thing that made those rehearsals possible is the the kind of
39:19
AI chat bots that have been built around it.
39:22
So, again, one small example, but it's a way of really challenging
39:27
the students to think about A, how they're thinking
39:32
and what they're thinking about,
39:33
but also kind of reflect and rehearse and be like, oh, you know what?
39:37
That didn't work that time.
39:39
It goes back to what we were saying earlier about failure.
39:41
Like it's lower stakes failure than it would be to sort of get up
39:46
and speak in front of an audience, you know, our languages department
39:50
do a lot of work with audio generation and doing that kind of practice or,
39:55
you know, having repetitive ability to practice
39:59
in a low stakes environment or a no stakes environment where
40:02
all you're doing is talking to a machine and it doesn't, you know,
40:06
does it really matter.
40:07
The machine's not going to judge you, hopefully, yet.
40:10
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
40:12
But all of those kind of opportunities for creating
40:17
ways in which students can feel successful,
40:20
which just wouldn't have been possible before,
40:22
those are the things that are overlooked from some aspect
40:25
of that dialog at the moment in the sort of mainstream media.
40:30
I don't want to come across as, like a sort of vehement pro tech person.
40:34
I think that those arguments against tech have a lot of merit as well.
40:39
And I think that there's, you know, that there is a recalibration
40:44
of the educational landscape needed, especially after Covid.
40:48
But I think that there is still value there.
40:50
And I think that we have the opportunity to open up
40:53
some of that value that we just wouldn't have been able to access before.
40:57
If we do it right.
41:00
As we wrap up here,
41:01
I have so many more questions, but I'll just stick to one.
41:05
Obviously different teachers have different levels
41:08
of maybe readiness or opinions or willingness.
41:12
You have a huge spectrum.
41:14
And I guess in your role you're working with all of the teachers here.
41:17
Is there any advice that you'd have either to someone in a similar role
41:20
or a teacher who wants to work with other teachers that can help build
41:26
not saying help win everyone over and have a big pro-tech party like you
41:30
said, but how do you get teachers to have the at least the confidence
41:35
to have the right conversations with their students and with their peers?
41:39
I think providing, and this is really difficult
41:43
in almost every school, but providing opportunities for people to explore,
41:50
I think that one thing
41:51
that was established reasonably early,
41:55
after the advent of GPT 3.5, or whatever it was
42:00
in November ‘22, was it kind of depends on the person.
42:05
Right?
42:06
And so how you interact with AI, some people feel
42:09
deeply, deeply uncomfortable about it, writing any of their emails.
42:14
Right?
42:14
And some people just can't wait to offload that.
42:18
And that's fine. Right?
42:20
And some people feel really deeply uncomfortable about having a conversation
42:23
about lesson planning with it.
42:25
You know, that's a human endeavor,
42:27
and that should, you know, that should really sit with the humans.
42:29
And some people, well, we'll get it to sort of critique their lesson plans
42:33
and, well, it's how you interact with it is varied for everybody.
42:37
And so, I think, the best things that I have seen done
42:42
is when departments or teams have said,
42:45
you know, here are some rough guidelines,
42:48
just spend 15 minutes with no objective,
42:51
just trying to do something.
42:55
So, there's like, one of the things we have Gemini as a school
43:00
and one of the things that we're doing,
43:02
actually doing on Wednesday with a group of teachers, is
43:05
just kind of
43:06
getting people together and saying, look, here's Gemini Canvas.
43:09
It can kind of build apps for you, right?
43:13
Here's a couple of examples.
43:15
Get some sort of kind of crazy data problem
43:19
that you've been wrestling with,
43:21
or some data that you wish that you could gather
43:24
and you've been like thinking, oh, you know what?
43:26
I'd be really cool if I knew all of this stuff.
43:29
And then just try and build a thing for it and, you know,
43:32
and just play around with it and then show it to someone else
43:34
and see what they think, and then iterate it.
43:36
And the things that I have seen not work is when the organizational leadership
43:41
says, we are using AI for X and Y, but not Z.
43:45
It never gels with people's workflows.
43:47
People have different workflows, and people do things in slightly different ways.
43:52
And so getting people to kind of wrestle with it
43:55
and solve their own workflow problems, which are different
43:59
to the person sitting next to them, who does exactly the same job.
44:02
I think that those are really good ways of building goodwill and building,
44:07
a kind of shared understanding of both the capabilities
44:11
and the limitations of the technology.
44:12
And then you can start to think about, like what organizationally,
44:18
which of these things should we be building out.
44:22
Because by the time people have understood the value proposition,
44:25
then they can start to get on board with things that
44:28
they might not have designed themselves, but they can see the value in them.
44:32
But I think that that initial kind of hearts
44:34
and minds thing where you're like, you know, this isn't necessarily the enemy.
44:37
This isn't just the homework cheating machine.
44:40
This is actually something that can help you out as well, and that
44:43
this can make a meaningful difference to both you and your students.
44:46
People kind of have to
44:47
stumble over that themselves,
44:48
and you just got to give them the opportunity to do so.
44:51
But I think when you do that, you've got to have
44:53
that framing that you've brought up a few times in our conversation.
44:56
And what I've heard a lot of is metacognitive priming.
45:00
It's thinking about your thinking your questions,
45:03
the way that you're approaching your learning,
45:05
whether that's from a student or from a teacher perspective.
45:07
And the thing that's really going to stick with me
45:10
a lot from our conversation is that idea of like,
45:12
you've got to know your purpose, your why, of what you're doing.
45:16
And that's typically school aligned mission.
45:18
And it of course, it manifests itself through your teaching as well.
45:21
But that then pulls itself into how you're going to interact with this tool.
45:27
And yeah, I think the biggest thing that I'm holding on to that
45:30
is you frame it around that metacognitive approach, not just
45:33
this is my answer giving machine,
45:35
but if we want to cultivate curiosity in young people, if we want to cultivate
45:38
curiosity in teachers and help us model that in the classroom,
45:42
then we've also got to start evaluating our own practices
45:46
and be a bit critical about those things,
45:47
using a tool that can be highly personalized.
45:50
Because just as you said, we are all going to do this in a slightly different way.
45:53
And here's a tool that can be a good coach in helping us get better.
45:58
So, I just I really appreciate your perspective on these things, Tim.
46:01
That's really helped enlighten me quite a bit.
46:04
Yeah. No.
46:04
Thank you.
46:05
And, I appreciate your incredible paraphrasing as well.
46:09
You're doing a great job
46:10
of summing up what I managed to say in ten minutes in about 30s.
46:13
So, thank you.
46:15
No, thanks, Tim. You’re too kind.
46:17
Great. Well, that's it, Tim.
46:18
Thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate it.
46:21
This this has been a lot of fun.
46:23
And yeah, we so appreciate talking to you.
46:25
Yeah. Likewise.
46:26
Thank you very much for having me.
46:28
Perhaps the central challenge of AI in education is no longer
46:32
whether students can access information, because they can.
46:36
The challenge is helping young people develop judgment,
46:39
agency, curiosity and wisdom in a world where information is abundant.
46:44
That may be why conversations about mission, values
46:47
and purpose are becoming more important than ever.
46:51
If this is an area of interest for you, we recommend David Perkins's book
46:55
Future Wise or the OECD Learning Compass.
46:58
You could also see the Unesco Future of Education reports.
47:02
All of these provide meaningful ways to refocus on the purpose of education
47:06
as a foundation to address the challenge of AI in education.
47:13
Yeah, so Tim's smart, Tim knows things.
47:16
He's got some good ideas, and he's obviously trying some new stuff
47:19
that makes a lot of sense.
47:20
And I love a lot of the things that he said.
47:22
But I mean, you know, from the Kognity side of things, what's
47:25
really resonating with you from that conversation?
47:27
Lots of things.
47:29
Before, when I was chatting with Tim,
47:31
he was asking me, he's like, well, because he's a podcaster also.
47:35
And so he was like, this is my chance to ask you questions.
47:38
He was like, what have you seen different in edtech in the last decade?
47:43
And I said, in a good way,
47:46
everyone's job got a lot harder.
47:48
I think that a decade ago and a bit more,
47:52
there was a lot more gimmicky edtech with a bit of a less
47:57
cool Wild West feeling, of like, anybody could make anything.
48:02
With water pistols, instead of actual pistols.
48:06
We're still in education.
48:09
It's not in Hollywood.
48:12
But it was this feeling of,
48:14
we're going to make this tool, we're going to make a freemium model,
48:18
we're going to let a teacher start experimenting in their classroom,
48:21
and then maybe, hopefully we'll start making some money after.
48:24
That's how a lot of companies were.
48:27
And I love that
48:31
teachers have gotten way more discerning
48:34
and schools have gotten way more discerning of
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we need to use
48:41
technology in thoughtful ways and see, understand why we're doing it.
48:46
I think that's a theme that's come up a lot in our episodes.
48:50
And I think with Tim especially, it's like, I love how much they really are
48:56
rooted to their mission of their school, and that came out clear.
49:00
I like the idea of having the conversations about the why
49:06
and being really intentional, and that's something
49:10
that I think about all the time at Kognity is
49:13
what does intentional edtech look like and what is intentional use.
49:20
There's, I think, maybe top of mind also right now,
49:22
is we're coming across some schools in districts that are like,
49:26
we quit computers, like no more screen time in our school.
49:30
Yeah, yeah.
49:31
And that's a real thing.
49:33
And that's not something that I necessarily love.
49:38
That's a hard thing to work with, but it's a really important conversation
49:43
to be having is like, that's the other end of a spectrum.
49:47
And what do you do in your school
49:51
to make sure that all the tools that you're using
49:55
are used meaningfully, and that nothing is done
50:00
just for the sake of screen time or taking away screen time, like,
50:05
what are you replacing it with?
50:07
If you're not using screens anymore, what are your teachers going to do?
50:12
Like, that's just the tool or the medium?
50:16
Yeah. We can't just be like the Luddite.
50:18
Let's kind of, you know, go back because back worked.
50:21
And there is a great argument for that.
50:23
I'm not saying Luddite in a derogatory way.
50:25
Like that's a useful thing.
50:28
But yeah, what you're saying is like that intention,
50:31
and this is one of the things that I think comes through in
50:33
almost all of our conversations is what's the intention
50:35
behind the the learning tool that I'm using, whether that is paper
50:38
and pencil, an overhead projector or a tech tool of some sort.
50:42
And you know what stood out to me, I think in the classroom experience
50:46
is that, it's that intentionality.
50:50
But I also, you know, I come away from these
50:52
and I get excited and want to try these things out,
50:54
but at the same time, there is, again, that sort of time aspect.
50:57
And it's not just the time of
50:59
let me try to experiment with it, but it's like,
51:01
how am I going to prioritize the time in the classroom?
51:03
Because some of the things he said made me
51:05
so excited about teaching metacognitive strategies
51:09
and using AI as a tool to help coach you on those metacognitive strategies.
51:14
But I have to prime that.
51:15
I have to teach students why I should ask AI for something like,
51:20
here's my opinion can you give me three competing opinions
51:23
or three different opinions that are well researched that
51:25
that might challenge my thinking?
51:29
I have to kind of coach that,
51:30
you know, I have to teach students to look for those types of questions.
51:34
And I think that's important to do.
51:35
But I also then have to recognize where's my balance.
51:38
And there's an argument that says, well, when you're highly specializing like this,
51:43
then you don't have to do as much direct instruction
51:45
because students are going to get the content at their own pace.
51:50
That one still leaves me wondering, where do I prioritize
51:55
my timing and my lesson planning so that I'm highlighting the metacognitive stuff,
52:00
so they're using AI and asking better questions of it,
52:03
to enhance themselves as learners.
52:07
Yet, also balancing the pacing through my curriculum
52:11
and teaching the assessment strategies and that sort of stuff too.
52:13
So it's got me thinking about a lot of cool stuff.
52:17
The intention is big one, the mission behind it as well.
52:19
And now just where do I fit this in?
52:22
And I don't mean that, like where am I possibly going to fit this in?
52:26
Yeah. I don't have time, I teach biology.
52:29
Yeah, exactly. You know how important I am?
52:31
But rather like, I need to intentionally do this.
52:33
So it's the same thing. It's intention. Yeah.
52:36
No, it is.
52:37
And I think that in a lot of our episodes, I listen to people saying
52:42
things that they do really well with their students
52:45
that I'm like, you should also do that with your teachers.
52:48
And this one was actually a bit of a flipped thing
52:51
where I loved his suggestion for the teachers, where he was saying that
52:56
you can't just tell a group of teachers you use AI for this, this, but not this.
53:02
And then just expect them to have it fit into their ways of working.
53:06
And it's exactly the same thing, I think, for the students where you can't just
53:11
go to the students and say, you can use AI for this, this, but not this.
53:15
It's like, how do we sit with this and work
53:19
and pull it apart and have time to explore and figure out,
53:23
especially IB students never take any answer
53:27
at face value, nor are they taught to.
53:31
So why should this be any different?
53:33
I guess is the idea is like
53:35
you can't use it because it's cheating and it's like, well, like, wait a minute.
53:38
Like, let's think about this.
53:40
And you use the example of like, why is this bad?
53:43
But then I mean, something like, I don't even know if I'm supposed
53:45
to say other companies, but whatever, like Grammarly or the citation
53:49
one or whatever it is, it's like who's drawing the spectrum?
53:53
And I think he gives good ideas of how to do that, but it's so important to have
53:57
that be a conversation.
53:58
Yeah, yeah.
53:59
I mean, Tim is definitely giving me a lot to think about.
54:01
And I hope for our listeners,
54:02
I hope he's giving you a lot to think about here as well and to,
54:05
you know, to consider this in your practice
54:07
and how you can make it a reality, both for your students
54:10
if you're in the classroom or if you're a leader,
54:11
how are we going to get this out from our teachers as well?
54:14
So, super informative.
54:16
Tim's super smart.
54:17
This was a lot of fun and we're so glad you joined us for this episode.
54:20
And we'll see you next time on IB Unplugged.
54:22
IB Unplugged is a Kognity podcast for IBDP educators,
54:27
helping you teach with more confidence, creativity, and joy.
54:30
Our show is hosted by Courtney Marline and John Patton
54:33
and produced by Katilina Gaffney,
54:35
edited by Damir Zvekanov,
54:37
and supported by Karla Cetina.
54:39
If you have a topic or question for us to explore, please reach out
54:43
on kognity.com/ibunplugged.
54:45
See you next time.