Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Robert Valentine about his choice of Pyramids of Mars (4/4)

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Talks to Robert Valentine about his choice of Pyramids of Mars (4/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

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Hamster with a blunt. Pen knife for doing quicker.
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Welcome back to a Hamster with a blunt Pen Knife, the Doctor Who
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Commentary podcast. My name's from Valentine and
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with me is Mr. Joe Ford. And together we are going to
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discuss part 4 of Pyramids of Mars.
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And a reason I wanted to discuss this one with you, Joe, as well
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as the whole kind of looking at Doctor Who and hammer influences
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or Doctor Who and whatever, whatever else influences is.
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I just fancied kind of sticking on my pith helmet and spending
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some time with you in like, you know, ancient Egypt.
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I, I, I'd forgotten that, you know, 2 minutes.
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We're back in the Home Counties, but in in that kind of it's
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Wardian Egyptological horror setting.
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It's Yeah. Again, it's one of the one of
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those stories where just the sheer atmosphere of it is one of
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those things you wish to revisit.
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And we've had this talk before about various places.
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For example, Professor Chronic creditors study in Sharda.
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There is certain imaginary spaces that certain episodes of
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Doctors Who take You into and Pyramids of Mars is a very very
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specific 1:00 and it's 1 I love. You can taste it, can't you?
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Oh, yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Like sometimes Doctor Who stories are a vibe, right?
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More. Yes.
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Oh yeah, totally. Yeah, and this is definitely
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that, well, a vibe with a load of great depths as well.
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Yes. Well, look, should we see?
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Because I think you're going to have some things to say, maybe
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that are slightly less than positive about Episode 4, but
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let's find out, shall we? Let's do it.
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I will count us in in the amount of deaths we've had so far,
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7654321 I just made that number up go.
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I love that. That was that.
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That was very kind of seven deaths.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was very on theme.
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I liked that. We've got a few more yet.
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We've got an almost death of the Doctor.
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An actual death of Marcus Scarman.
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Yes, that's we can discuss his death when he gets with death,
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about whether he's dead already or if this is his second death.
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Do we count it once or twice? We'll see.
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We'll see. I just how visually horrible it
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is. Gosh, that corpse, that smoking
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ashy corpse on the floor. Anyway, we'll get there.
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We will get there. Right now it's Doctor Who meets
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God, the death God from the end of time.
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Oh, and I didn't press play when you counted down, so I'm going
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to press play now. I'm not going to make you do it
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again. I'm just going to.
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I'm just going to nudge myself ahead 20 seconds.
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There we go. 50 seconds in. OK, 50, I'm with you.
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I'm with you. Experts at this now.
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Oh, I love this. It's a very typical cliffhanger
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resolution. No, you shall not die yet.
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First of all, I've got to tell you my plan for destroying the
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entire universe. Then you will die.
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See, this confrontation is fine. I like it.
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I say fine. It's brilliant.
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The Doctor is utterly vulnerable there, there.
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You know, he cannot be saved through his own actions here.
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And this is just this is as epic as it gets.
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And especially Tom, who always comes a very powerful, very
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charismatic Time Lord for him to be this week.
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And he's almost begging at one point, isn't it?
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Yeah, identify yourself plaything of Suitek.
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I love it. You know when Suitek says your
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evil is my good? Yeah, what?
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I've got a note there about that.
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Your evil is my good, the doctor calls in a twisted abhorrence.
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And I've just. Yeah, Suitek is just a git.
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Yeah, because he is just. Yeah, he is purely destructive.
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All life, including fish he mentions mentions fish
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specifically is his enemy. He hates all life.
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He's been sitting in that chair for some time, you know, enough
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time to get a bit miffed at the universe.
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Yeah, he's got nothing to look at in that room.
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And it also also at the moment he is he's he's immobile, he
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can't move and. Yet he seems so powerful.
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Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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It's he, he look, he well, the look is incredible.
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The looks iconic. And you're voiced by Gabriel
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Wolf. You can't really go wrong.
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So this, this confrontation between our hero and the
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ultimate evil essentially is, yeah, wonderful stuff.
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What sort of, you know, devastating powers do you
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imagine he's drawing on there in those green eyes?
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Well, he is an alien. He is a mortal alien.
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He is not a God. He is just an alien of such
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massive power that he might as well be 1 to a Time Lord or
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anything else. That's the thing we are in.
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We are nevertheless in Eric von Daniken territory of he is just
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a so he's such an advanced technological being.
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He is relying on relays and and force fields and rockets and
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video screens. He is a He is an alien.
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You say any advanced form of alien is indistinguishable from
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a deity. Well, no, he is absolutely.
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And the he and also, you know, all the, all the sirens became
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gods to the Egyptians. Now here's my thing.
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I would I would, I would argue that this story has kind of run
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out of story now and we're just going to find stuff to do.
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One thing this story lacks is any other female characters or
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giving them as much to do. And the one thing all mummy
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stories have and this story does not is either a a long lost
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reincarnated love. No, it's worse than that in The
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Mummy. I was terrible.
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It sucks in that OR some other, you know some female character
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from the mummy figures past who has a significant part in his
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fate. Now imagine if Sue Tech had
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looked on that video screen and seen Sarah.
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And for example, I'm just riffing here, imagine if she was
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the dead spit of the goddess Isis, mother of Horus, who
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defeated. Him.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or.
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There was, Yeah, Sorry, Go ahead, go.
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Ahead, when Justin Richard writes The Sands of Time, which
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is a sequel to this. Yeah, there's Nissan has that
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role. Oh, she does, obviously.
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That's the thing, because I think this is the the big
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failure of this riff on The Mummy is that it doesn't riff
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enough on The Mummy or I was the other thing I was thinking maybe
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a female equivalent of Naamin, who in Naamin and all his cult
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have been follows of SU tech 4 down the generations.
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If you get a female character who's who is his counterpart who
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let her cult has been the cult of Isis down the generations.
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But the rather than just you know, generation game style
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quizzes for the next 20 minutes. If you'd actually riffed on the
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Mummy and had involved the female deity Isis or or a
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reincarnation of Isis, that gives Sutek the character way
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more to do than wait while his his avatar figure of Marcus
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Scarman just goes through the motions of various puzzles.
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You gotta be careful though, because it was extremely pony in
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the mummy when Peter Cushion said to his wife, You know when
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you put your hair down like that, you look just.
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Oh yeah, ancient Pharaoh. Yeah, you don't.
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When the mummy comes in to kill him, he goes Oh my God, it's my
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old girlfriend. You have stuff like you have in
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oh, the the, the the Jewel of Seven Stars by Bram Stoker kind
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of doesn't say, does it, where you've got this woman who's may
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or may not be possessed by this ancient Egyptian Princess.
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I mean, the whole point is the Egyptians didn't do they didn't
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go into reincarnation. Reincarnation wasn't a thing in
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Egyptian religion or mythology or anything.
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It's something from the Victorian romances.
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It's something that the West took from elsewhere and made-up
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essentially. But what?
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I genuinely think that once the Scarman brothers are both out of
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the way, there's no drama left, which is why our characters are
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playing puzzle games. The reason I think that scene is
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so, so impressive, though, is that he not only wants to hurt
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the Doctor, he wants to humiliate him as well.
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He threatens to murder his best friend and now he's like,
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puppeteering him. I mean, are we supposed to
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assume the Doctor's dead now? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And it's even I know, even though I know what happens, Tom
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is so convincing in it. I believe it.
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But I do kind of think we still need AB AB plot with a female
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character doing something that's more in the tradition of the
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source material would would have said would save Part 4 because
10:13
there's not enough going on. It's a bit too linear now.
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I suspect that Holmes often is. Inspiration strikes early on in
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the story. It's like, Oh, yes, it's great.
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And then at the end it's like, oh, I really want to get on my
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brain. Amorbius OK, right.
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Let's just sit in the exelons and do that for an episode.
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You know, we've I've had my fun doing the Mummy now.
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I think the closest parallel to this is Hand of Fear, which has
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three episodes sort of on contemporary Earth.
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And then we go after Castria at the end and looking sets and
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it's so disconnected from the rest of the story.
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Like the scenes on Mars are here.
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You're like, well, this is basically like a weird sci-fi
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coder. Yeah, yeah, I I do agree.
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Because I must admit, whenever I think of this, this story,
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Pyramids of Mars, I always forget about the good chunk of
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Episode 4. I forget.
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Oh yeah, they go through all the logic puzzle trappy things.
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Now. Now I think we are
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intellectualizing this as adults.
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Well, you are. I don't have an intellect, but I
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think, I think that as a kid, yeah, those puzzles and those
11:26
games, I was there for it. The one, the one where they're
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in the two tubes and he asked the question.
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Oh, yes, yeah. Yeah, I found that really fun.
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I liked, I mean I liked it in depth of the Daleks as well,
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which again gets very desperate at.
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The end Maybe. Maybe I'm not.
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Maybe I shouldn't knock that element too much.
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Maybe I, maybe I'm suggesting that as well as that's
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happening, there should be some sort of but female servant or
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reincarnation of one of the sirens involved to just to, to
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honour the source material and to keep that, to keep that
12:05
mummy, to keep the vibe going. I think you're right though,
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objectively, I think we could probably both say that we should
12:11
never go to Mars really, and we should stay on Earth and the
12:14
whole thing should be a piece there with a way of defeating
12:17
SUITC there. I mean, all I'm saying is as a
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kid, Doctor Who doing puzzles was really fun.
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Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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I I suppose if I'm not going to criticize the production design
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at this point, it's when they go to Mars it no longer looks
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Egyptian until you. I love the mummies in the golden
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sashes but I think Mars Mars should look Egyptian but with
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the colour scheme being red rather than sort of Saharan
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yellow. It looks a bit like a sort of
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muted Jackson Pollock, doesn't it?
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The walls. Yes, it does a bit or a little
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bit, little bit. Mark Rothko even maybe, I don't
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know, but yeah, but yeah, but you're.
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Still teaching me, Rob. You're always teaching.
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Oh, this is great, though when she thinks he's dead and he
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goes, yeah, you're always thinking I'm dead, aren't you?
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Yeah. You've got to stop doing that.
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Like. Yeah, well, we've, well, we've
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seen how terrible, horribly this has gone before with the
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Scarman's. So we're expecting the same
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thing. And it works.
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They're so, they're so great. Well, you know what, and I won't
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often say this, I think Monster of Paladon does it better
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because the doctor dead from that, you know, gay security
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alarm that's coming out of his head in Monster of Paladon and
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then saying Oh yes, showing up to him.
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And then his eyes open and she literally puts her hands over
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her mouth and she just can't believe he's come to life.
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It's so well acted, whereas it's here.
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It's just a fun a nice fun little.
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Bit see, all this stuff should look Egyptian, yeah, still, but.
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But maybe the money they've spent, a lot of the money
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haven't. At this point, it feels like a
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set in Studio 4, doesn't it? I mean, it's very funny how the
13:55
doors are laid out. You know later on when they need
13:57
to get back to the TARDIS and all the doors just go open in a
13:59
row. Yes, yeah, yeah.
14:04
We have an appropriate musical sting.
14:06
I mean this this traps a bit obvious look.
14:09
One button blows up the room, the other button opens the door.
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Yeah, that's that's the all. All this is coming after
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Lawrence and Marcus and all that.
14:20
Wonderful. An episode ago we were kind of
14:23
doing proper great drama stuff. Should it be more devilish sort
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of puzzles, You know, we've, we've genuine sort of murder
14:32
attempts on the. Problem is, but you mean a bit
14:35
more Indiana Jones. Yeah, that sort of thing.
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Maybe, but but that's that. I love all that stuff, but it's
14:42
not very Doctor Who. Doctor Who stuff is the puzzly
14:45
stuff. Then again, I kind of if it if
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it just looked more like the tomb that Marcus Scarman
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discovers the beginning. I don't know.
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I don't know, but you're. Trying to say to me you wouldn't
15:00
want to see Tom Baker and Elizabeth Slayden running
15:03
through this tomb with a great boulder coming after him, about
15:07
to crush him like Indiana Jones. Actually, I'd love, I'd love
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that. I'd love, I guess.
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So would I, yeah, Tribophysics, I believe that was robbed there,
15:15
that sort of hand movements he was making.
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That's what it is. That's the thing.
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This stuff is really you can. It's this stuff is not easy to
15:25
write because you have to come up with stuff that's not overly
15:29
familiar to your audience. I'll tell you what it is as
15:33
well. Is it?
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We've had three episodes where our regulars have felt like they
15:38
could be killed at any moment. Now they're chasing the
15:42
monsters. Yes, yeah.
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And also we, we've left, we've left the, we've left the mummy
15:49
behind. We're no longer in a roof on
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them. Oh yes, there's a mummy in
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short, as I say this. But I we've we've, we've left
15:59
the source material a bit too far behind.
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Now, this whole scene here with the electrified wall, none of
16:04
that's in the original video. I think they cut out quite a bit
16:07
of this last. Yeah, these, these games and
16:09
things. I think you.
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I think you could, yeah. I really don't think if you
16:14
could cut, you could cut nearly. You could cut them all out I
16:17
think. I do remember going, Oh my God,
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which one of those symbols is different?
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Oh, it's the one that's in a straight line.
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It's clearly that one. If 7 year old Joe can work that
16:28
out, it ain't a very complicated puzzle.
16:30
I mean, this looks a bit like Wackaday.
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Now where's Timmy Mallet? No, exactly, exactly, exactly.
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I, I, I, I just can't be objective about it though
16:45
because I just loved it when I was younger and I realised
16:49
that's my nostalgia blindness coming in because I absolutely
16:52
can see. The pace has just come to a
16:54
crawling hole now. Yeah, that's that's the whole
16:59
thing has up up until this sequence.
17:01
It's not it's that the. That's a lovely moment, though.
17:06
Where they what's? The movie that's come from.
17:09
It's a Marx Brothers film, yeah. Did you hear Paddy Russell
17:13
wouldn't let him do it. She went, no, we're not doing
17:15
that. It's supposed to be serious.
17:17
You know, we're you're going after the the God now and then
17:20
they whisper to each other, Oh my God.
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Well, she ain't going to do another take because it's 5
17:24
minutes to 10. Let's do it anyway.
17:26
At the time they did it and she was just giving them daggers
17:29
across to say it like. Bastards.
17:32
Well, at this point we've we've sort of lost the gravitas that
17:35
we had. That's the thing.
17:37
You mean the Mavitas, don't you? Oh my goodness, yes.
17:41
I'm so sorry, I did say the jokes wouldn't get any better.
17:46
Like what are we doing here? He's measuring these symbols
17:48
with his scarf. I do love using scarf business
17:51
though. You've got a scarf.
17:53
Use it. I mean, I do like all of our
17:56
weird golden patterns sort of reflecting on the wall.
18:00
I think that's quite effective. Oh, yeah.
18:02
It's not unlike sand dunes. It's sand dunes, right?
18:07
Yes. Yeah.
18:09
Yeah, it looks like the desert's being combed, doesn't it?
18:12
On the walls? Oh, it goes.
18:14
In case I'm wrong. Get behind me.
18:16
Oh, I'm right. Yeah.
18:20
This was the bit I loved her in the tube and where he writes.
18:23
From oh, gotcha backwards with Indiana Jones stuff, you get,
18:27
you actually get to see what happens to people when this
18:29
doesn't go right. We're not getting any of that
18:31
stuff. That's the problem.
18:32
We're we're seeing two different parties succeeding in getting
18:35
through. So do you think this is enough
18:37
to bomb the story overall? No, it's just because you, like
18:44
I said afterwards, I always forget the sequence exists.
18:48
So, but it's all I do think it could have reached it could it
18:53
could have stayed on the same level as the other three
18:55
episodes or even reached a new height, but it doesn't quite.
19:00
And I think that's generally because episode 3 is so much
19:05
really, it's the it's the emotional climax.
19:08
Yeah, you're right. And it's the episode that ends
19:11
with Doctor Who facing gold. Yeah.
19:13
How do you top that? Well, the way Doctor Who always
19:18
tops that is with turning around and being the little trickster.
19:22
It's always with the levity. That's the way you, you, you,
19:25
you undercut your all powerful being, don't you?
19:29
That's the. Thing there's no opportunity
19:31
there. Like I said, he's being
19:32
humiliated, tortured, you know, like, unfortunately there's no
19:37
time for a witty quip to throw at.
19:39
Suitex and. He's hurting you quite as badly
19:42
as he. Is these gold, these new mummies
19:45
with the the golden arm bands and sashes and stuff.
19:49
These are great because it they look fantastic.
19:52
They look different and also they give you a sense of the
19:55
siren culture that banished Sue Tech.
19:59
So they hint as a power that is arguably greater than ultimately
20:03
greater than Sue tech because they managed to imprison Sue
20:06
tech. They are the the robots of
20:09
Osiris, or Horus rather. I don't want to undercut your
20:13
point, you know, but I have seen a couple of sort of gobbling
20:17
mummies like that gay disco once or twice.
20:20
Yeah, there was a big camp, but then camp, you know, and sort of
20:25
extravagance do go hand in hand very often.
20:29
The sequences in the mummy where they were taking sarcophagi, we
20:33
won't go back in time to the height of the Pharaohs and they
20:36
were taking all the great trinkets out.
20:39
And honestly, it's the campus thing I've seen this week.
20:42
Now this puzzle is also done later in Labyrinth with much
20:47
more entertainingly, because the two the the rather the the four
20:50
gate guardians are Jim Henson creations and there's a lot
20:55
there's a lot more dialogue in business.
20:57
The ones that are chuckling in their heads is it I love.
21:00
Those ones, Oh no, it's not them, you know, it's it's the
21:03
the the the two guardian tolling Shields with another pair of
21:06
heads between their legs. Yes.
21:07
Do you remember? The Doors.
21:09
Where the door knockers got a. Oh, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:13
Coming soon to have extra Rob Valentine watch his labyrinth.
21:18
But we do have enough time I think to basically the basic
21:21
mythology behind this is that you had Osiris and Sutec.
21:26
Sutec or Set killed Osiris, his wife and and tore him to bits.
21:32
His wife Isis put all the bits back together and gave him a
21:36
golden phallus to replace his penis which was still missing.
21:40
And that's how she got pregnant with Horus, and Horus defeated
21:44
Sutek. Oh, here we go.
21:46
So Marcus Scarman. I think it's Marcus.
21:48
I think it's Marcus Scarman saying I'm free.
21:51
Yeah, Suitek saying I'm free. So Marcus Scarman dies twice.
21:55
And that's a really great. Bar depending on which argument
21:59
you want to make. For Marcus Scarman you could say
22:01
it is Suitek if you wanted to. Oh, yeah, I agree.
22:03
But I think I think Bernard Archer's choice there is that
22:07
it's Marcus Scarman. But I but I, I do believe the
22:10
doctor in that he probably couldn't have been saved, but he
22:13
was still in there, which is which is more.
22:14
Horrific burning ashes in the shape of a human Yes is really
22:20
nasty. Uncle and Art brew.
22:22
White House must have been fanning herself down watching
22:26
Happy. On Sue Tech, the destroyer is
22:29
now free and this is. I shall crush this miserable
22:33
world and hurl it into the outermost depths of space.
22:37
My vengeance starts here. It's such.
22:40
A great yeah. And this and this brings us to
22:43
the third interesting timey winey thing this story does,
22:46
which is the the whole the whole lag of the signal between Mars
22:50
and Earth. 20 minutes or so, isn't it?
22:53
Or is it 5 minutes? It's it's not long.
22:55
It's not long. The time it takes to get sound
22:58
waves or something from Mars to Earth.
23:00
Yeah, I, I, I actually the the script that gets it wrong.
23:03
I don't know what the right thing is, but it's.
23:05
So lame. It gets it wrong.
23:07
It's more dramatic, It gets it wrong.
23:08
It benefits the drama to get it wrong.
23:10
What's dramatic here is Sue Tech is free, and with the weight of
23:14
his voice alone, that is a terrifying thing.
23:18
Exactly, exactly. And that's so this this story
23:21
does let's do 3 interesting things with time setting this in
23:25
unit HQ before it's a unit HQ showing us the future of 1980.
23:29
And now this time lag. So for some reason this Robert
23:33
Holmes has thought about time in three different ways and
23:35
reminded us that this is in part a time travel show and time is a
23:40
factor. And here is Sutec coming back.
23:44
Yeah, I'm not sure about that mask.
23:46
Well, that's the thing. There is an argument that it's
23:47
not a Jackal head, it's a the sutec animal.
23:51
It's some, it's some creature that archaeologists can't agree
23:54
on what it is, I mean. I think that's more like a
23:56
greyhound with pointed ears. It's a whip it.
24:04
Yeah, that's where. Tom gets that line from whip it
24:07
shit this script. It is a little bit unfortunate.
24:11
That's what maybe it's not unfortunate.
24:12
That's what just look. That is just what suit the
24:14
Destroyer looks like. Live with it guys, This is me.
24:17
Know what you've got to say to this?
24:18
It's better than that fucking CGI dog from Empire of Death.
24:23
But we shall discuss that when we do the Empire of Death
24:26
episodes. And then we do it.
24:28
Come on Rover, let's have a little joint in the time.
24:32
Those are like the sign of this time of the sirens is long past.
24:37
Sarah sums this up brilliantly as well.
24:38
She goes. He's dead.
24:40
Sutek is dead. She was right.
24:44
Yes, although there's a great gag here where he goes, what is
24:48
it? We don't want to get blamed for
24:49
the fire. I had enough of that in 1666.
24:52
Exactly. Exactly.
24:54
Pre empting what? Happened.
24:56
Yes, it is next. Regeneration.
24:57
Well, I do think the doctor does sort of mention meeting people
25:00
he hasn't actually met yet. I think he makes some of them
25:02
up. He must do.
25:03
But also I've I've banned myself from having Doctor Who villains
25:09
die saying no anymore. I'm just, I thought, you know.
25:13
Yeah, I. Have to stop.
25:15
I love, I'm a sucker. For it, I don't mind it, but
25:17
yeah, yeah. I'm a sucker for it, but you
25:20
find yourself doing it more often than you should.
25:21
There's so many Doctor Who stories now.
25:23
I mean, there's hardly an original way to have a villain
25:26
dispatched anymore, is there? Well, you say that, you say, you
25:29
say that. I hear a challenge.
25:31
But, but also very quickly. Sutec does have a lifespan and
25:37
the doctor knows that you know, Sutec will will.
25:41
Sutec is mortal and will only live so long, as far as we know
25:45
from this story at least. I do love how this ties into the
25:48
start though with the Ferrari burning down at the end.
25:51
That's a great model shot that is great loading.
25:55
And look and and and all the fire this is, you know, having
25:58
fire on set is never not dangerous.
26:01
What does the Doctor kick off his foot there when he comes
26:03
back out again? Oh, I missed that.
26:05
I currently I don't. Know what is?
26:06
I don't. It's just Tom doing business,
26:08
I'm sure, yeah. And here we have.
26:12
All of those lovely relics, those Egyptian relics.
26:15
Marcus. Sorry.
26:16
Lawrence Garman's invention. The whole lot gone.
26:20
I mean let's be honest, Stargrove's has to be sacrificed
26:23
so Benton has somewhere to make his tea in the future.
26:28
Oh wonder. Well look Rob, I mean yes I
26:31
agree with you thing the wheels may have spun off the axis in
26:36
the. Last yeah, I I didn't, I didn't
26:37
I didn't, I didn't come here to knock Episode 4, but the story,
26:42
it is interesting observing how the story runs out of the the
26:47
main things it's got going for in Part 3 and and but it could
26:52
have like like Indiana Jones replacing the golden idol with a
26:55
bag of sand. I granted that he that doesn't
26:58
actually work in in Raiders, but you could have having lost the
27:03
the Scarman brothers dynamic, you could have replaced it with
27:06
the the the lost love or reincarnation of Isis Bobbins in
27:13
part 4. And I kind of think the story
27:16
made the mistake of veering too far away from its source
27:19
material in the final act and. Don't disagree.
27:24
What I will say is I think one to three are about as perfect as
27:29
Doctor Who comes. They are.
27:31
And when you say the, the, the, the name Pyramids of Mars, to
27:35
me, it's the, it's that I think of that's yeah, I, I forget the,
27:40
the, the middle chunk of part 4 exists.
27:42
In fact, if I were to do a 90, an 8090 minute edit of this, I'd
27:48
see how much of part 4 I could Chuck and just go straight to go
27:53
straight to the end of all those bits to get through.
27:57
Interestingly, when the mummy very quickly moves to the
28:02
present day, not as quickly as Sorry, not the present day to
28:04
England, not as quickly as Previous of Mars does.
28:08
I figured they were going to do the same sort of thing, but no.
28:10
What periodism is, it takes that sort of familiar English
28:14
countryside and turns it into a trap where people are going to
28:18
be murdered and then has that play out again and again in
28:23
various spectacular ways. What The Mummy does is a couple
28:26
of scenes where the mummy's roaming about, going into
28:29
people's houses and things like that.
28:31
But then there's extended dialogue scenes where they're
28:34
talking about, you know, robbing graves and things that are
28:37
robbing the past and all of that.
28:40
And the pace just stops so many times.
28:44
Whereas I just think, I think Holmes does, he takes, he takes
28:47
the best of that film, but he keeps ramping it up.
28:51
Oh, yeah, yeah. That's the thing.
28:53
Yeah. You're always drawing on various
28:56
influences, but ultimately what you do is you synthesize those
29:00
influences and you bring in new stuff.
29:02
And also you, you know, you follow the demands of the story
29:06
you're writing and, and, and also the original characters you
29:10
create and what? And you know he does.
29:12
He does that in this story in spades.
29:15
I'm not sure that what was it called?
29:19
It was. It was called the Abominable
29:20
Snowman, wasn't it? In yes, the Nigel Neal one.
29:23
I don't know the the Doctor Who story was a better version of
29:27
that. It was an interesting
29:29
alternative version of that. I do think Pyramids of Mars is a
29:33
better version of the Mummy down in the Doctor Who mold.
29:38
I wholeheartedly concur with that.
29:42
Yes, we find consensus. Yes, let's see if we do that
29:46
when we name our three fabulous things.
29:48
It's not going to be hard for this story.
29:51
Not, not at all, not at all. Oh wait, actually, before we do
29:55
episode 4, Death count, death count.
29:58
The doctor dies. Oh wait, no he doesn't.
30:00
He doesn't. Scarman dies, maybe unless he
30:05
died in Part 1 and Sue Tech dies.
30:09
Oh, but wait, no. Does he die or does he?
30:12
Gets pushed into the far future, doesn't he?
30:15
Or, or does he grab hold of the TARDIS and then stay there for
30:19
the entire rest of Classic Coup? Of course.
30:21
Yeah, we know exactly how he ended up, don't we?
30:24
Yes. So no one dies in episode 4?
30:26
So arguably no one dies. And that's another reason why
30:29
it's lacking. Yeah, yeah, if Scarman, if
30:32
Scarman's already dead, then no one dies in episode and and if
30:35
and if the the rest of the entire rest of Doctor Who is
30:39
cannon after this story, then then Sutek doesn't die either.
30:43
I'm going to be quite careful when I suggest this because I I
30:47
am scared at the racial offensiveness that this may
30:52
cause. But if Akhmed had somehow, you
30:56
know, gone back with Marcus Scarman, you know, back to * and
31:00
then gone on the adventure with the Doctor and Sarah, you know,
31:03
maybe he could have made it to Part 4 and the pyramid, and they
31:06
could have bumped him off in the last episode just to add a bit
31:09
of tension. You know, have him there as
31:10
Comic Relief or something. I I can't see any character
31:15
surviving Holmes for very long at all in this one.
31:19
I do think if there was going to be any additional Egyptian,
31:24
Egyptian inverted commas, because Victoria Taplian is
31:29
Armenian. So there, you know, no, no
31:31
Egyptians were harmed in the making of this television
31:34
program and. Unlike Empire of Death, no dogs
31:38
either, right? Well come on, what is your what
31:41
is your first recommend for Pyramids Miles?
31:45
Well, I I suppose actually nothing to do with the Egypt
31:49
stuff at all, or the mummy stuff at all, but just Tom Baker at
31:54
his most alien and portentous. There's a good word for you.
31:58
But yeah, just Tom Baker being grimly iconic as the 4th Doctor.
32:04
I'm going to go for an actor as well.
32:06
Mine's Michael Sheared, my first one, absolutely reminding us
32:10
that there are personal stakes in this epic story that's
32:13
playing out for, you know, he plays that Lawrence is fallible,
32:20
you know, and the despite the fact that his brother is a
32:22
walking, that The Walking Dead, you know, he still thinks
32:26
there's hope from the scene where he, you know, tries to get
32:29
him to remember his part. He's just, it's such a great
32:32
turn. Like Doctor Who.
32:34
Yeah. They weren't offering big
32:35
salaries. They didn't have to get the best
32:37
actors in giving performances like this.
32:40
And yet here we are. Michael Shield is my second.
32:44
I'm going to go for Elizabeth Slayden, next step.
32:47
I'm going with the regulars. But honestly, in this story, she
32:50
is terrific. Or when she's explaining to
32:53
Lawrence Scarman that they're time travellers and she's from
32:56
the future and, you know, he doesn't believe her and she's
32:58
used to this and what can she say, You know, sorry, you know,
33:02
Yeah, she is just. She's from her third, from her
33:05
entrance all the way through. She's phenomenal.
33:08
And she's phenomenal in a way that, to be frank, so many
33:16
companions in Classic who are not what what she can do with
33:21
the material is actually quite staggering.
33:25
Absolutely. Keeping it with the ladies then.
33:30
Not a popular director with the actors.
33:33
Paddy Russell. No one really has many nice
33:36
things to say about her because she was a hard task masker and
33:39
she demanded that everyone puts in a full day's work and the
33:43
result is the massacre horror, Fang Rock, Pyramids of Mars.
33:48
And regardless of what you think of the special effects, you know
33:51
those first scenes and deserted London and invasion of Dinosaurs
33:54
are great. She's a.
33:57
Hugely competent director of television, but specifically of
34:02
Doctor Who, which as we know was one of the most difficult shows
34:07
to make because of the demands of special effects, pacing,
34:10
action, etcetera. Isn't another sort of procedural
34:13
drama where you have people stand around in rooms.
34:16
And I just think the visual value that she brings to her
34:20
stories, it's, yeah, it's unforgettable.
34:24
And I was going to mention Bernard Archard and Michael
34:28
Shields together just to make sure.
34:30
Get them in. So I won't say Bernard Archard
34:32
because I'll pretend that you said Michael Shield and Bernard
34:35
Archard because really it's the Scarman brothers together.
34:38
And, you know, it's wonderful. So what I'll mention instead of
34:41
Bernard Archard, I would like to mention the horrifying glimpse
34:47
of 1980 we get. Because that might that shows
34:52
you what the Doctor is fighting for.
34:54
And it shows you why the Doctor is taking such a God's eye view
35:01
of the situation, because that is the future he is in, utterly
35:07
invested in preventing from taking place.
35:09
I mean, suggesting a portent of Doom coming in 1980.
35:13
Thatcher, you know, US shell suits.
35:16
I mean, they weren't wrong, were they?
35:18
They? Joe and Rob Yazoo.
35:21
Yeah. Horrific things were coming.
35:24
Yeah, but we were. We divorced and lost out on The
35:26
Empire Strikes Back, which also had Michael Sheen in it.
35:28
So you know. It's my least favorite Star Wars
35:31
movie. You know, maybe that's a
35:32
conversation for another day. Maybe.
35:34
Maybe that's a podcast we should have.
35:36
Yeah. But I love the one with the
35:38
Ewoks. Of course I do.
35:42
My last thing is another technical accomplishment, and
35:46
that's Dudley Score. I think he's at his best in the
35:49
Hinchcliffe era overall because he's listening, watching The
35:53
Mummy, right? I've messaged you.
35:55
Are you sure Dudley Simpson didn't score this?
35:58
Because, you know, the melodramatic stings coming in,
36:01
you know, the crazy instruments during the death scenes?
36:04
It could have been Duffy. He's so in tune with this stuff.
36:08
You know, I think he delivers interesting scores for out his
36:10
entire run. His stuff that he does with
36:13
Trout, and it's very different from his stuff, say, he does
36:15
with Graham Williams. But this is where he's most
36:19
comfortable, and I think this is where he's honed that very small
36:23
selection of musicians that he's got with the particular
36:27
instruments that he chooses and the atmosphere he drives into
36:31
Doctor Who. I don't think we should ever
36:33
underestimate, one, the special sounds and two, the music in
36:36
Doctor Who. It does so much that the budget
36:39
can't achieve. You know, it takes us sort of
36:43
from the 50% to the 100 in certain scenes.
36:47
And Dudley at his best is the best we've had.
36:50
And this is Dudley at his best. Amen.
36:54
Wow. I mean, after extolling the
36:57
virtues of that banger for two hours, Rob, where are we going
37:01
next? Oh I don't know, maybe we should
37:04
like activate the randomizer or something?
37:07
Or maybe, maybe it's high time I developed opinion, an opinion
37:11
about the quarks or something. You know, maybe we should, maybe
37:15
we should go somewhere I've never been before.
37:17
So maybe, doctor, you should take me on a trip.
37:20
We should do this, but I it should be something with
37:24
homework, right? I've gotten used to now sort of
37:26
doing a bit of extra work for you.
37:28
Fine. OK, well in that case, yeah,
37:31
maybe I'll have to go away and have and have a have a think
37:35
about what what can I make Joe watch or read or otherwise
37:43
ingest? Consume.
37:45
Yes. What I'm going to, what I'm
37:47
going to ask of you, is this yes.
37:50
OK, OK, we're. Dangling a carrot here in front
37:52
of the audience with no actual eating insight.
37:55
And that is, sorry, terrible metaphor.
38:01
And that is that, you know, we've done cryptozoology.
38:03
We've done, what did you call it, Egyptological romance, You
38:08
know, so we're sort of doing, we've done these sort of horror
38:12
influences with movies. Yeah, yes, let's push away from
38:16
horror. Okey dokey.
38:19
And go somewhere else, Anywhere else, but, you know, attach a
38:23
movie to it. All right, OK, I will, I will do
38:28
that. I can't do that now because I'm
38:30
on the spot, but I will, I will let you know in the very near
38:34
future because as, as soon, as, as soon as this is over,
38:39
something suitable will occur to me.
38:40
But I must admit, I have I really enjoyed our trip to the
38:43
Himalayas and I've I've enjoyed our trip to both Egypt and
38:51
wherever the hell this is set some somewhere in the Home
38:54
Counties. So wherever we go next, I'll
38:57
make sure it's also somewhere with a nice evocative atmosphere
39:01
to it. I.
39:01
Mean, I'm not saying we're not going to go back to horror at
39:03
some point in the future, though I would love to do one of my
39:05
favourites, the bragging of Morbius, and read Frankenstein
39:09
as well. That would be quite fun.
39:10
Well, I was, I was. That is what I didn't mention to
39:14
do at some. Point.
39:16
Let's do it then. Fuck it.
39:18
I know it's season. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
39:20
And it's a short book. No no Joe, no.
39:25
Tell you what, no don't read Frankenstein then watch Brain of
39:27
Morbius. You would you would watch 2
39:29
films for me in this. Case go on.
39:32
They're both OK James Whale Frankenstein with Boris Karloff
39:39
and. I've never seen it.
39:40
Wonderful. Yeah.
39:41
Oh, and and even better, the sequel, The Bride of
39:45
Frankenstein. The bride of Who plays the
39:48
bride? Elsa Lancaster, who also plays
39:54
what she plays the nanny who's leaving in Mary Poppins.
40:00
Right, sold. And when I say that, Brandon
40:04
Morbis is one of my favorite, it's top ten of all Doctor Who
40:07
for me. Oh, good grief, then we're
40:09
definitely doing Brandon Morbis in.
40:10
Terms of like playful, very sick horror.
40:14
I don't think it can be billion. But, and also it's one I read, I
40:18
read the target novel first. So it, it also has that going
40:22
for it for me. You know where it's, it's, it's,
40:25
it's the, it's the book. It's one of those book first
40:27
ones for Rob. Yeah, I suggest one extra bit of
40:30
homework then. If we're going to watch this
40:31
movie, it's all right. We haven't got to do it straight
40:33
away. You know, we've got some time to
40:34
do this, but we both listen to the Tom Baker narrated.
40:39
Oh, yes, we'll do that. We'll do that, yes.
40:42
I, I think I might have heard it before.
40:43
I love the way he says Cordo. So yeah, he opens it up.
40:47
Pyramid of Mars by Ted and Sticks.
40:51
Oh my God, he's oh, no, hang on, that's this story.
40:53
That's the. Yes.
40:55
Oh, Rob, it's light. Listener, I think, I think, you
40:59
know, we're we're we're Listener.
41:02
Listener. He's tired.
41:04
I'm tired. You're tired.
41:07
So at least by now, by now I'm, I'm guessing.
41:14
Yeah, we're going. To go and wrap myself in
41:16
bandages and I'll pop. Back.
41:18
We should. We should.
41:19
We should, we should put this on air production meeting to bed
41:23
and then we should. Probably.
41:25
Go to bed ourselves. I wish you'd record some of the
41:29
production missions for Big Finish.
41:30
I'll bet they'd make great listening.
41:32
It's more effing than Jeff in than this, but anyway, yeah.
41:35
Rob, thank you. It's been too long and it's
41:38
been, as ever, just a complete delight.
41:40
Thank you so much for your time.