Latest / The Paul Barron Crypto Show / Next Billion-Dollar Crypto Gaming Token?🔥Edge of Chaos + Metagravity

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Next Billion-Dollar Crypto Gaming Token?🔥Edge of Chaos + Metagravity · The Paul Barron Crypto Show

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Today we'll be doing a breakdown on some projects I think you will like it.
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Also will kind of give you a little bit of an insight into Web
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three and where the future is going. Oh that's going to be great.
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My name is Paul Barre. Welcome back into tech Path. I do want
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to thank our sponsor today and that is wilder World. If you guys are
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looking to learn a little bit more about Web three gaming, this is one
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of those multiplayer games that you could get into and learn a lot about where
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Web three is going. And I think many people, whether you're an investor,
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maybe you're a game player itself, just visit wilderworld dot com. They
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have been able to do some pretty amazing things, including not only race game,
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but also getting to quite a few more genres as well. So check
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it out over at wilderworld dot com. Joining me today is Rashid Mansour,
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who is the CEO of Metagravity. All right, pol yeah, great,
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thanks for having me on the show. Yeah, so we're going to talk
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a little bit about obviously multiplayer Metagravity one of the I would say leading projects
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out there that are kind of going in this direction. I want to go
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over into first a little bit about where you guys are today in terms of
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team size. What does the company look like as a whole. Yeah,
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absolutely so. We founded the company a little over sixteen months ago, closing
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our seat ground with a number of investors in deep tech gaming and web three.
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We are about sixty five now, spread across mostly Europe and some in
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Asia, some in the Americas, but it's mainly europe centric our team,
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and we've grown quite rapidly sixteen months. Hiring sixty five plus people has been
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a bit of a challenge, but it's been a really really good ride.
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Really. I mean my background, I've been focusing on massive concurrency and compute
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performance and scale, not just in games, but also like even down at
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the chip level. I was working on massive paralysm in Prosser architectures. I
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was working on acceleration of neural networks for AI numerical computing and scientific computing problems.
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And founded another company before Metagraphty called Hadian, where I broke the world
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record for the largest number of concurrent users in a single game session. That
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was with the em online Fox in London and in Iceland. We had over
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ten thousand in a concurrent game session, which is spaceships battling it out.
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Yeah, there's a visual day of the server side, but the learnings sort
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of from that kind of go back. I mean, it's really twenty years
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I've been preoccupied with this problem, and it's a central problem for Web three
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Today. We can really only build games or simulations with about one hundred players,
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you know, maybe one hundred and fifty, and that's a hard limit
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on player accounts. It's also it's a sort of constraint on total compute budget.
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So it includes things like, in addition, how many AI can you
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have, how many physics objects can you have? But when you look at
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the web, the traditional web, we're talking about platforms that can support tens,
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hundreds, thousands, millions, even billions of users in a sort of
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concurrent platform without artificial walls. In Facebook is not a world is a series
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of walled gardens. People are free to move around interact in real time at
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will with anyone. They don't necessarily do that. Not everyone interact with everyone
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at the same time, but you could if you wanted to, You could
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reach out to anyone in a virtual world. That's fundamentally not possible. You
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need to shard your world into small instances, and that's always been the case
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for games. When we talk about this big, brave new world of Web
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three, that's a serious limitation for the future. Yeah, I think this
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is something we've we've been looking at for some time. We've done quite a
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few interviews on this. I remember when we did an interview with Herman Marula
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over at Improbable, which also kind of goes in this direction. Explain to
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me a little bit of what you guys are doing versus say and Improbable.
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So what we're doing with I mean what Improble has been doing. I was
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doing with Haiti, and it was applying a techniqueal spatial partitioning to try and
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scale virtual worlds, and that had a degree of success like the things I
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did with CCB games, and the scale wey ticket to is sort of the
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upper bound of sort of the complexity and scale it can really reach with that
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approach. So what Meta Gravity is doing is really taking those learnings from having
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built that kind of technology and having pushed it to the limits, but also
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the learnings of how high performance supercomputing style problems are designed massively concurrent, highly
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POWERLEL problems are solved and sort of developing a new theory of how to paralyze
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a virtual world, and how to scale it up, how to improve the
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performance and improve the cost efficiency of its execution, because all these things are
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essentially if you can actually afford the metaverse. So really, you know,
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you can think of what we're doing as now taking those learnings and you know,
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the successes and the limitations of the past, and then taking the next
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leap forward. And I'm really really happy to say even in sixteen months in
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we have some really remarkable technology and we can do things now that would have
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previously been considered impossible. So a few games have been able to kind of
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go in this direction. Obviously we're seeing some of your own work there with
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educ Chaos, but you look at Star Atlas. We've had Michael Wagner on
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a couple times really kind of talking about this very topic. There's a tweet
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right there the help of metagravity. Now we're testing a record thirty thousand concurrent
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players with a minimum on sixty frames per second. So they have an interesting
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game. Their game has been one that we followed for quite some time,
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all the way since the last Bull Run really when we started to see a
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lot of web three games breakout what is their challenge, I would say,
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for what Star Atlas is trying to do, and obviously some of the things
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that you guys provide as a solution. Yeah, I mean, that's a
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great, great sort of framing there, because I meane I sort of encountered
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Star Atless quite early on, even before I founded Meta Gravity, but I
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was sort of in the prisis of transitioning out of Haitian and Star Atlas concept
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sort of popped up on my radar, and having done the work with Eve
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Online, and you know, obviously having had that history, I found it
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really interesting. And the way I'd have summarized sort of that vision is there's
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an Emmy called Dark Age of Camelot back in the day which focused on this
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sort of three three faction realm versus realm PvP conflict and at the same time,
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I mean it was setting in a couch of more medieval setting, but
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from a structure and dynamic standpoint, that three faction system producers a really interesting
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sort of series of properties in how the work way the players in the world
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self organized, Like you might have one faction becoming overly powerful and the other
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two factions might band together to fight against it, and that was sort of
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proved through the dark Age of Camelot model. Incidentally, I happen to be
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doing a regular podcast with Mark Jacobs, who is the CEO of that and
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he designed Darkase of Camelot and Chris Kane called the Biggest Podcast Apple, So
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you know, we continue to talk about on these design problems. Star Atlest
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was clearly clearly embracing the learnings of a game like Darcat of Camelot, but
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also taking it sort of in the Eve Online direction of what if we could
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build this, you know, this competitive, real time, fully open universe
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simulation and we're not just talking ships. We're talking you know, actual characters
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standing on the ground or you know, fighting in a spaceport or a spaceship,
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all the way up to fleet battles which are shipped to ship. That
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kind of scale of simulating a synthetic reality is what the future is about.
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But it's a it's an exciting proposition that has been sort of intractable so far.
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So I mean, our collaboration with Star Aartlets is really how do we
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build and help usher forward that sort of technology powered game that really becomes a
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home and a virtual economy and a virtual society for the future of players all
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over the world. I think that's super super excs and we're really really excited
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to be working with Michael log around the team over there and o the really
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cool stuff they're doing. So that brings me to the other game that seems
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to have a partnership with you guys, and that is Wilder World, one
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of our partners. Here's a tweet from them. This was the Domino updates,
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so pivotal moments now shaping the journey of what they're doing in terms of
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aligning with multiplayer. When you look at games like Wilder World and maybe really
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what the future of these kinds of games could mean, especially as we see
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expansion in Web three, how important is this multiverse, you know, so
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to speak, for these games' success to be able to Because this is the
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argument I always look at, do we really have enough critical mass yet to
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need those kinds of solutions solved because we it's kind of like what we don't
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know? What we don't know just yet because there's just not enough players out
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there. What about right now with what Wilder World is doing? If I
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understand you correctly, where you're coming at it from where I mean, a
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lot of sort of detractors of the need for scale of created from and they're
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like, oh, we're sort of getting by with charting people into a hundred
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play rooms. Do we really need game encounters where you need thousands? Right?
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And I get I sort of get that argument, but it's it's very
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focused on the hero and now and the limitations of the possibility. It's like
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going back two hundred years and speaking to people getting around on horse carriages and
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asking them to into it the motor car. Right. It's it's a very
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difficult thing to do, and it's a very difficult thing to imagine that kind
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of future. I mean, I mean, you know a lot of vcs
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talk about this stuff as well. But this is sort of in Sequoia's taxonomy
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of product market fit and the evolution of technology I call this. They've sort
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of taxonomized the different ways you look at it. There's the stuff that's very
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deductive and you look at the hero now and you're like, this is going
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to make something slightly better. But then there's the future vision stuff, which
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is enable a world that doesn't yet exist, and it does require a degree
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of your imagination to conceive a fit. Why I think it's important is they're
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missing a really really important point today. The one hundred player limit doesn't just
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constrain sort of, oh, you know, the kind of encounters players can
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have, which can be up to one hundred players. A hundred player limit
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fundamentally prevents certain game mechanics from even existing. So I can give you some
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examples. So those who played MMA games, they're probably you know, like
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World Warcraft, I don't know, age a ConA or even Darker Came a
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lot of which you talked about, or even Line, I mean even Lines
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a bit different because it aims to be a sandbox. But most typically they
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create this facade of a living, breathing virtual world. But when you play
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them a little bit, you realize that that's not what they are, right,
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They're not really living, breathing virtual worse, it's just a facade.
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And you've seen behind the curtains and you've seen the Wizard of Oz. So
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yeah, the moment you do that, like the illusion breaks away. But
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why are there facades? Because imagine if you could really exist in this world,
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like it's a living, breathing world. Imagine you could go build a
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house somewhere. That sounds innocuous. But if you can build a house somewhere
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so you can other players, they can build next to you. Now you've
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got a hamlet that grows into a village, that grows into a town,
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into a citadel. Right now, you can't handle that. You can't handle
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that with any any other sort of server technologies existed in the past. So
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what you need to do as a designer is is prevent that from ever even
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starting out. You need to completely clamp down on that. So it's no
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wonder that en members don't allow you to just go build wherever your life.
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There's no wonder that they don't allow you to get your friends together and go
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attack another city, because if too many people did that, now you have
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a scale problem. So really this is about freedom of design and really embracing
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the intuitions about the real world and bringing them to the virtual. If you
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can't scale, if your server tech can't adapt, you can't do that.
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And now, going back to wilder world, what are they really doing?
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Well, imagine GTA six, but imagine there are players all around that world.
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They're moving around, they're driving cars, they're doing jobs. They you
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know they're forming gangs this kind of future. I mean, we can imagine
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it as gamers. Gamers love these ideas, like this is the stuff they're
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looking for. But you can't build this unless you are ready to deal with
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the edge cases when too many players might converge right in a region. You
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need to allow for these scenarios to make your world interesting. So okay,
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so I get where you're going with that now, in the sense of being
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able to build these ecosystems. And obviously these economies also play into this special
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with web three because it's a different dynamic when you look at you know,
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just the model in which blockchain gaming works. All right, it's about true
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player driven economies, right, True player driven economies are not possible because they
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will self organized. They will have dense locations sparse locations, which you can't
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predict as a designer ahead of time. So how do you make that possible?
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Right? You need scaling tech EDU of Chaos. When is this game
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going to go live? When will this be playable? So this is a
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I mean EDU Chaos is a full blown virtual world simulation that's medieval, which
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is interesting because while the world is sort of the present and star outlets at
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the future, and I sort of see that as a trifector. We were
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it's already playable to next end. I mean, we we're actually you know,
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building and bringing to the for the big, large scale battles. That's
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not what the game is going to be about all the time in the future,
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but that's the stuff that's going to break the game. And so we're
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starting there and we're building and testing that. We actually ran in play tests
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yesterday and we had a pretty good you know showing from our community. So
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it's already playable, I would say, But when do we intend to launch
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it as a slice in the early next year at GDC around GDC time that
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we need to push it out to the the public. How does Dungeons tie
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into this game? So Dungency sort of a it's a mini game. It's
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retro and you know, those of us who have grown up with games love
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that sort of style. It's an imagining what a retro game would be like.
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What the role it plays is. It's an early way for participants to
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start to accrue some value in the future edu chaos economy, anything that you
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earn by playing dungeons. The coins you earn will be something that's available in
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the future, in the actual edge economy, in the marketplace that allows you
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to get you started on a footing a little bit above this, so just
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joining for the first time when the game launches. Speaking of that, have
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you talked to the Future Verse team when I mean we've had the Future Verse
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team here on the podcast. Many of people, I think have looked at
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maybe this being one of the interesting next generation game models that are out there.
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What are first of all, what do you think of that? And
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has there been any communication with them? Yes, I'm absolutely we've We've had
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a number of conversation into the Future Verse team in the past. I can't
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speak about the specifics of it, but I think what they're doing is really
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really interesting and the team as a whole, and the ipis they're working on
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I mean they are they're building a version of the Metaverse, and they're they're
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starting top down. See. I don't believe that any one company is going
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to build a metaverse, and I think there's no one experience that's going to
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cater to all. Much like the Internet. In the early days of the
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Internet, you had the MSN dot COMSOL dot coms, and we're trying to
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build their version of a proprietary Internet, and I think any endeavor to do
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that is futile ultimately. But I think it's about different players from different segments
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building various edifices that ultimately collectively form the metaverse, the next the three das,
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or the next generation of the Internet. And I think the stuff the
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Future Verse team is doing is an important sort of step in that. In
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that direction, I mean that focusing on this more as directly a metaverse application
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on like say the Educo Store Atles whild the World, which are essentially games
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that are also sort of those metaves experiences. But I don't think there's one
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answer. I think these different approaches are essential for that future. You know,
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in the early Internet you had the early Amazon dot Com, but you
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also had GeoCities and you had MySpace at some point, right, So we
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need as much variability as much of diversity in this new in this new world.
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Yeah. I would say though, if you think about what Mark Zuckerberg
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is doing with meta and Horizons, World Horizon, Worlds, et cetera,
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I mean the growth and the potential for that of trying to lock into maybe
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one entity out there could could be looked at going that direction. Could meta
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horizon worlds be using metagravity in the future. I'm just kind of curious of
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the potential for that because in it itself it also kind of runs into the
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same issues. Absolutely, I mean, that's definitely very much a potential.
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I can't comment on any actual conversations on the front, but the way that
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Metagravity's position, we we see ourselves as building the web server for the next
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generation of the Internet. We want to be the Apache web server for that
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next verse. Okay, we think unrail Engine and Unity are like the web
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browser, the Netscape, Narragetting, the Internet Explorer, but we want to
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be the web server. And unlike the original web server, which is sort
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of a straightforward engineering problem, it turns out scaling virtual worlds, it's more
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of a scientific problem, which is what we've cracked and which is why we've
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been able to leave from the competition. Almost every major tech company has tried
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to solve this problem on their own. They even partnered with my previous company
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because we were further ahead. So this is a very important problem. But
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our aim is really to be that webs Educatos is different. It's a game,
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it's an exemplar. It's going to demonstrate the ramifications of the technology.
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But the metagravity technology itself, it's just that back end, and we want
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everyone to use that technology, and we think there's a good reason why they
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will. Yeah, Rashie. So you know, our show obviously talks dies
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in deep on the tech side, but we also look at the financial connection
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to what's happening in the cryptosphere out there. What about a token for metagravity?
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Is there any potential for that in the future. So I may be
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speaking out of turn a little bit. So there are actually two tokens at
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the infrastructure level that we have planned, but we can't go into specifics and
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details. Our long term view is that this new world of virtual society's virtual
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world's virtual economies as you talked about, can really only come into their own
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when we have when we remove the need for trust and permissioning. Today that's
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not the case. Even the Web three virtual world projects that are out there,
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they're just running on an Amazon service somewhere, and the moment the company
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behind it disappears, that world is gone. You might have a stub of
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an our unique idea on the chain on chain but that world is gone and
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all of the value is gone. We believe that the future is where just
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as today you can deploy say the backend of a Ethereum app, adapt using
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Ethereum, just deploying a smart contract, we believe that in the future you
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should be able to deploy an entire virtual world and have it persist indefinitely.
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I've been working on very important foundational technologies for that, and Kenization is important
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for that. So yes, absolutely, guys are taken on the horizon.
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I think a lot of people that are starting to explore crypto in general.
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Web three gaming is typically one of the gates and entries into kind of next
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generation. It's kind of like if you look at traditional investors, they go
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to Wall Street, they're investing in companies like Nvidia Meta. I think that's
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what we're seeing now in the crypto side of things, especially around Web three
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as companies like Mata Gravity and many others within the ecosystem, the Solana ecosystem
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that are starting to really break down some of these technological barriers, and so
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we keep our ear to the ground. So Rashid, it's been great having
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you on learning a little bit more about what you guys are doing. Thanks
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so much for stopping in. We appreciate it absolutely pleasure. Thanks for having
19:52
me on, Paul, This is brrect you bet all right. So you
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